 All right, welcome everybody to the January 13th TSC call. As you are probably all aware, there's two things that we must abide by in these calls. The first is the antitrust policy notice, which is displayed currently on the screen. And the second one is the hyperledger code of conduct, which is linked to our agenda. Of course, everyone is welcome to participate in these calls. And we, with that, we will get started with our announcements. So as always, the announcement about the Dev Weekly developer newsletter that goes out each Friday. If you have any sort of content that you would like to be sure gets included in that Dev Weekly newsletter, please click on the link in the agenda. There's a wiki page that allows you to add comments or add anything that you'd like to be considered for the newsletter. Are there any other announcements that people have that are not currently listed here? All right, seeing no hands, I will take that as a no. So the first thing that we have on our agenda is the quarterly reports. As you can see from the quarterly reports, we have four outstanding quarterly reports that are due with the earliest one being from December 6. And we did receive the hyperledger cactus report this week. Thank you, Hart, for putting that together. And for the additions that I saw come in last night to that as well. Are there any questions that anybody has on the hyperledger cactus report? And hopefully the one question that you had that was for the TSE about the marketing. I did see David did answer that question. So hopefully that's all good there. If there's no questions, there are still a few remaining folks who still need to review the report. Please take the opportunity to do that today. As you may or may not know in the wiki, there is a way to see all of your open tasks. And I would highly recommend clicking on your picture in the top. The top right corner. Thank you, right for demonstrating and clicking on the task there. You'll see all your open tasks. So, right has some looks like some tasks that he probably didn't realize he had the hell go work on I'm sure now. But anyway, there's there's everybody has their own set of tasks. And so please take the take the opportunity to go through that and look at what you still needs to be reviewed from your end. So we can get some of these reports that have been outstanding closed out from the TSE perspective. So with that, I think the next item is a presentation about the hyper ledger challenge 2022. So, Arun, I know you introduced this topic for us. Did you want to set the stage and then we can hand it over to whoever is going to be presenting for us. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. I know a few days ago or maybe in one of our previous call last year. I discussed briefly about hyper ledger challenge. So, this has been in plan for a while now. And now we have concrete plans and a stage is set up for us to kickstart. Nancy introduce every, I mean Nancy introduce rest of the plan and the steps and the goals for the event. Without further ado, so what do you Nancy. Thank you. Thank you Arun and thank you Tracy for the time on the TSE calendar. My name is Nancy man I'm the chair of the social impact special interest group. And as Arun had just mentioned earlier last year. The hyper ledger India chapter had kicked off a hyper hack event, which is a hackathon that the social impacts special interest group also participated and collaborated on. It was a great event, and it was one of the first collaborations and what we wanted to do was kind of pilot the concept of cross collaboration between special interest groups as well as the technical communities. And I think it was overall very well received and we had a lot of great use case and a lot of technical innovation. They came out from the hyper hack event. And a couple of things that we kind of identified coming out from that is that one was that the development of, you know true innovation doesn't happen over a weekend, and it surely doesn't happen just over, you know, over the night. So, and the other thing was that in order for a innovation to be truly sustainable and the long term. We're going to do a lot more community resources to do something like this. And so that's why we pilot, we're going to be piloting this hyper ledger challenge 2022, which is going to be a multi month, kind of like a marathon with three phases, the ide prototype and the launch phases and the goal of this is to really develop sustainable innovative open source projects in the manner of months, what the goal of really kind of driving increased engagement and awareness of the open source community in particular for hyper ledger foundation across new developer communities as well as new business communities. Do I have the ability to share the screen for the wiki page or I don't know if you should have a share screen at the bottom of zoom. Let me just quickly show my screen. We can see it. Awesome. Thank you. So as I kind of just mentioned, the, what we're looking for is any innovation that advances the current state of the art for enterprise grade distributed letter technologies, leveraging one or more of the hyper ledger projects. The goal of this is really to help each of the projects working groups and special interest groups drive awareness engagement of new communities into their platforms so as an example of how we're going to be doing that. So we're going to be decentralizing the marketing approach, for example. So as opposed to having kind of a central forum for spreading the word on this event. We're going to be relying on each of the community members to engage with their communities as well as new communities and help use this chapter ledger challenge as a way of kind of opening up that pipeline. So as I had mentioned earlier, there's going to be three rounds each of these rounds and the idea phase prototype phase and launch base is going to be approximately two months. And the idea phase. The goal is to work with new developers and new, new innovators really to help them come up with new concepts and solutions. And at the end of that they'll submit a proposal to us of their concept, and those will all be posted on this wiki page so that the community can kind of share and also review and look at the great solutions that are proposed at the outset of this. For the winners, they will be matched with mentors across the hyper ledger communities and also be given space in the hyper ledger labs so that they can start prototyping their solution. The prototype phase is another two months where they, you know, we will encourage them to work with their mentors and they can help identify themselves, the resources that they need, and we'll try to match them with those. Across this two month prototype challenge what we're looking for is for them to, to commit the code, develop something that really kind of shows the traction and the potential for their solution. And at the end of the prototype phase will select five to six teams based on the great response community engagement and how well their solution really kind of fits with in terms of a solution market fit. At the end of the prototype phase they'll be given space and the Linux foundation crowdfunding site so the goal there is for them to go out to their communities and identify additional following funding and support to support their solutions. So during the launch phase, they'll continue to work to work out their prototype continue building their communities and try to develop and find new follow and funding and support. And at the end of the launch phase, what they'll get actually is an opportunity to present their solution at the hyper ledger global forum across a global community, and really be able to kind of look at that longer term. You know innovation and how can they continue to develop out their open source projects. You know as as a follow on to this hyper ledger challenge. So, you know, in terms of this, you know this is definitely going to be a very large effort. And, you know, that's why we're, you know, really I was really excited to be able to speak at the technical steering committee. Because, you know, I think you guys are, you know, our steering the kind of the, you know, the focus area of the hyper ledger foundation I would love to kind of get your involvement and invite you to kind of give me feedback and comments on how we can make this better across the overall hyper ledger foundation. And so a couple specific asks that we have. One is, you know if you can work help us with spreading the word on this event with your communities. The second thing is if you guys would be willing, you know, you or folks that you know and you're in the community that would be willing to serve as mentors we actually have a mentor and take form right here for the call for mentors. That's going to be really critical because, you know, everyone here knows right even once to develop something that's truly innovative is really hard. You know, the more great mentors that we can match each of these teams with, there's more potential that we can actually develop something that it has that sustainability in the long term. The other thing is, as I had mentioned before we really want to decentralize this marketing approach, and also use have this be a tool to engage new developers into the communities. And so we want to help. If you guys can help us identify like kind of challenge champions across the board and so this could be leaders in the working groups, the projects that would be able to help us spread the word on this event and help us kind of curate the community to support the hyper ledger challenge. So potentially, if you guys would be willing to kind of share your year with some of these innovators, there's going to be sessions and the prototype challenge and the launch challenge where innovators will be pitching their concepts and ideas and I'm sure they would love to have your feedback and comments on their solutions, especially, you know, each and every one of you know better than anyone else how to curate open source communities. You know, any insights that you can provide them as they're developing at these solutions. You know, that would be that would be really helpful and I know, you know, at least, you know, if I were to do it, you know, that would be the one thing that I would really look forward to is presenting in front of the technical steering committee. So, you know, with that, you know, I'm open to any questions comments or feedbacks really appreciate the time again. So, I noticed the timeline. This kicks off next week. It looks like January 18. Is that correct. Yep. So, what we're doing is we're just kicking off next week but innovators will have about one and a half months to propose a solution. Okay. Anybody have any questions for Nancy. Any comments. And then just just so I'm clear from what I've gotten from looking at this wiki page. The idea challenge is, if we click on that link there's some more details about kind of what it is that you're looking for the teams to put together as far as the submissions go. I guess the, the thing is they'll create basically a sub page to this is that the idea on how they will actually go about submitting the idea. Yes. Yes. So, I'm right now working on the template for this. What will happen is there will be a button, and then they can create a sub page using the template. Okay. Yep. And then, I'm sorry, I'll ask for more questions. I, I assume that the prototype will be based off of things that have been ideated. Is that correct. Yeah, so in the ideation phase where we're just really looking for concepts and just like a proposal so it'll be about like a thousand words. And then it covers kind of the problems that they're trying to solve the solution that they're proposing the team and what are the resource gaps that they have and then a project plan for how they intend to complete and develop their prototype and the eventual launch of their other solution. And then the prototype would be the actual implementation and the development of that concept that they propose. Okay. Anybody else have any questions for me and see how much. So, actually I went through the, this wiki page. And somewhere I found like, we are kind of asking for the, it should be the kind of Apache license after the, this launch challenge phase, even the particular project. So, maybe this kind of, if the condition then it could be, maybe people will not submit that much idea, if he asked them to be open source their idea is something there or is not. So, so, so yeah, you know, come on, I think you raise a really good point. You know, I think a couple of things that is really truly critical with running this challenge. In particular, you know, I think, as an open source community, our goals are to curate and to develop follow on innovations that really drive more solutions. And one thing, you know, I can kind of allude to I think most major companies, their code bases are developed on top of open source solutions right legs foundation OS is has been the core. And I think the success there is really seen, you know, if you look at, for example, like the internet right today, that's all developed on top of Linux foundation code. That's in the open source community. So, the goal here is through the open source through open sourcing their solutions. The opportunity is that we can get community wide participation. Right, a team of four is not going to be able to develop a truly sustainable solution, especially when they're new to the tech stack. And they're new to to this right. So by open sourcing this, what we can as a hyper ledger foundation community right is to work with the community to help them identify mentors that everybody can work together and collaborate on and really kind of make sure that that solution gets developed out in a very solid manner. And so the goal here is to really help reduce the barrier of entry to the open source community and also develop that long term innovative solution. So, yeah, okay, yeah, so when me and running this hyper hyper head, so always like we have a some kind of the actually the whole other kind of project owner, they don't want to share even the presentation of their idea. And now we are asking about the contributing back to the given their project code. So maybe we can have a list number of participants if you're adding this idea. Well, so I think the goal right is to have high quality solutions that get developed out of this. I, you know, I personally believe in quality over quantity. Okay, yeah. But thank you I really appreciate your feedback. So another question, do we have a chat channel on the hyper ledger chat for this for people to ask questions and, you know, whatever they might want to discuss. We do not but Tracy, that's a really good point. I don't know maybe probably need to work with someone, maybe the hyper ledger stuff on opening up a channel. I think that would be great. It'd be a great place to point people to for any sorts of questions that they might have. Peter. I just wanted to say that I think it's a good idea and I would be happy to share it on the cactus man list for example just to spread the word like this mentioned. Peter thank you so much. And if possible, would you be willing to serve as a champion for us and the hyper for the hyper ledger cactus project. Thank you. I will follow up with you on that. Thanks Peter. Hey, so on the chat channel so that's a good question Tracy so we did have some conversation around how to reach out to a larger community and how do we get feedback from a larger community. And one of the point that came up in the discussion was. We also along with running challenges is a way of increasing community participation for us and what we are looking for is let's say somebody is interested in building a solution using particular project. We want them to also engage within that project mailing list or within that project chat groups more and we don't want to end up creating an additional modes of communication only for the channel. And the champion concept that Nancy was talking about. So they take the initiative to connect to rest of the community who is organizing this event right so in terms of giving feedback. I mean they serve as a front end people who will communicate to their communities or maybe spread the word within their team and take the feedback. So it's an idea if that works. And maybe for all these champions. We were thinking about reusing the chairs mailing list that is created. And probably we can extend that mailing list to include additional champions. If that sounds good. Again open for suggestions if we need to create a new channel, just that it would make us build a new community itself and increasing participation to existing projects. And one thing just to add there, you know, potentially what we could do is have a rocket chat channel, just for quicker communication. Using the chairs mailing list and opening it up to the challenge champions. Just a way that way, you know, quick chat is I think a little bit easier than sending an email especially when it's blasted to, you know, so many people. So we could potentially do it that way and, you know, you know, we can we can continue to talk about that. Yeah, I think, you know, my question is more around how do we get program level questions answered. And, you know, obviously, I think that chat is definitely makes sense but I completely agree a room and I wouldn't want a fabric question asked on this channel right I would ask the fabric questions on the fabric channel or basic questions on the basic channel. Right. So I think that, you know, we just need an easy way for people to contact folks like fancy and other people who are, you know, running this challenge. They say like, I'm, I'm lost here I'm not sure what to do. I need some help. Right. And then I think the second thing that I was going to comment on as well right related to the open source aspect that commish asked about was that, you know, I think in the prototype space, if they want to open a lab. And that would be an easy way to get themselves, you know, a space in GitHub for for doing that right now maybe not everybody wants to open a lab based on what commish had based on his experience with the hyper hack but I think they'll probably be a few people who would would like to do that and we can definitely help them through the process. We've got the lab stewards that will help them. I see you have your hand up. Yeah, so regarding this having a separate channel on the rocket chat. I think, I think it will be needed because it is a long running six month kind of idea challenge and complete hybrid challenge so there could be many questions related to the operational and management of the specific thing and we will not let it is a project question but in general about the challenge pad to have a separate channel where it could be discussed about the operational management regarding the challenge and regarding the project. It could be asked in the separate, whatever the project they are using. I wish for your comments on this. This is definitely something that we're going to be coming out with additional information on with respect to the role of the challenge champions, and how we intend to engage. One thing that we have been thinking about is hosting, like a monthly discussion across all the champion challenges that will be open to the hyper logic community to listen in on and talk about programming details. And, you know, to Tracy's point, I do, I do agree that the channel on racquet chat would be really helpful with quick, you know, quick things as they arise. And also we are in line with you Tracy on open sourcing to hyper ledger labs. In fact, that was one of our proposal that all projects be open source and hyper ledger labs. Yes. Yep. Any last questions for for Nancy. One more request to to everybody on the call. So, along through the challenge, as Nancy pointed out, we may end up getting more participation who who may need help who may want to understand how a specific project works, who could be just getting started in certain stage where they want more help from a project. So we may request you to come forward and run through series of workshops or hands on sessions for your project. And we will work with hyper ledgers team to set up those those meetings or the calls to enable those meetings. We definitely need your help from multiple regions. So if you have your community in other regions as well. Please do spread this information to them and also about helping us to run a workshop kind of session. Hey, Arun, can we reach out to you or someone else about getting people to volunteer. I know some people that might be interested but I think, you know, encouragement coming directly from the source will be more effective than if it comes in directly. Nancy, do you want to answer that so we do have intake form for mentors and volunteers and that would be a best way to onboard themselves to the to the program. And in terms of communication, we will figure out, I guess, we need to figure out depending on how big the community would be. Yeah, yeah, I think you raise a really good point right now with this intake form. We're just looking for some very basic information and expressions of interest to be mentors. The next step of this would be to host a kind of call with all the mentors and talk a little bit about what the what that would that role would entail. Do you have any particular concerns around driving engagement for the mentors that maybe we can think about a little bit more. I mean, I guess, people typically see a lot of mail from blockchain stuff about help with this, you know, mentor with that and I mean you guys have put a lot more effort than most things that at least I get around this sort of thing. So I just don't know if there's an effect. I'm wondering if there's an effective way to sort of convey that to say like hey this is something you really should sign up for. Does that make sense. Absolutely. So, if it's okay I'm just going to take this as a note and think a little bit more about this but I will follow up with you. Sure, absolutely. I mean I have some people that I mean my sort of context is I have some people that I would like to sign up as mentors, but they may need a little push and like the push would come better. The push would be better coming from someone directly affiliated with the challenge then from me. Yeah, if that if that's the case heart I'd be happy to have like follow on calls with the folks that you mentioned. You know happy to try to be persuasive. Awesome. Thank you very much. All right, well. Yeah, just just a quick I think this is fantastic men and I, and the team spoke last week as well. I think this is a great initiative. And Aaron, and others. We, I think we can do along to the heart, you know hearts question getting the word out. We can help with that as well and I have some some additional ideas that we can try to leverage so thank you so much I think this is a fantastic way to start 2022. And we're really looking forward to to working with you on this and making it a success. Okay, just to add to that, you know this wouldn't be possible without the support of the hyperlighter stops I really appreciate their continues. All right. Thank you so much Nancy for presenting this to us. TSC members we have a few call outs. A few asked at least at a minimum to help advertise this to our networks, but also to be mentors and champions for this and to really get the word out. So appreciate Nancy, you coming to the TSC and presenting we look forward to kind of where this goes and let me know if, if and when you'd like to present again on how the challenge is going. Absolutely thank you Tracy. All right. So I think the next thing on our agenda is the, let me actually let me share my screen here. I believe this is screen we want. That's okay, no worries. So hopefully you guys can see the importance of TSC quarterly project updates. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, when I share it's really hard to see people so I appreciate that. So yeah, this is the action item that I took from last week for what we needed to to put together based on our discussion of trying to highlight the importance of these TSC quarterly project updates. So it's really short in to the point but really just try to call out where we we use these project reports besides just checking to see if these things are are healthier or not. The projects are healthier or not so I did see a room your comment here, whether or not it would help if we had a section in the hyperledger website, kind of an executive summary section to see what's happening what's the latest. So everyone you had worked on that website last year around kind of doing some of this automatically. But I guess the question is, are you, are you suggesting, you know, something more formal in the way of trying to put together an executive summary for the last quarter or what that might look like or what you had in mind then. I mean, this is how this has been one of the challenge that I face. I'm not sure about others but I believe hearing from the previous conversations that most of the organizations, they do ask for an executive summary of what's happening within the community. It could be for a new initiative that they launch, or it could be for an existing project, they would like to understand the health and what's happening within the community. So I feel the project quarterly reports is a great way of communicating that status. If they could be interested in a specific project that they are interested in picking up or they could be interested in the project that they are already live using it. And, but that still does not serve as an executive summary. It's still is a lot of content for for for a summary part right. Um, so what I was arriving at is when I saw this page with importance of TSE quarterly report. Why don't we put this as one as one other benefit to have that quarterly reports filled up. So sure it helps those people who are looking for executive summary and because this would be brought extract from the quarterly reports. But it's a major incentive for from a project team that their project latest features and the latest updates are being showcased holistically outside on the hyperlegium insight. Yeah, that's it. I've been wondering in Daniela maybe this is more a question towards you. But you know every month I put together at least one slide, if not multiple slides related to what's happening in the DC to report to the governing board. I'm curious if we can, you know, put those into some sort of shared slide deck that we might share publicly. You know, either through the wiki the website in some way right that that particular slide or set of slides that I share might might be made public. Yes, absolutely. Okay, great. And this was this this was discussed in like an October governing board meeting I know you weren't there right before you came that this would be something that the governing board will be okay with obviously some of the matters the governing board are not public but some like this would be and that the the the chair of the TSC who's the representative on the governing board would be able to publish so it's very timely and it's 2022 so let's get that done. So yeah, I definitely have already the slide for the first governing board meeting that's happening here in January, or at least the going to be sent out for January. So, you know, I think this is a great time to start showing those publicly, and we'll find the right way to do that. And then I'm going to be the slide that I put together and send to the hyper ledger staff for inclusion in the governing board meeting but, you know, we'll see if there needs to be something else beyond that. How does that sound okay to me. Okay. Thanks Tracy. So I think this document does a nice job of providing some of the reasons why the project, you know reports are useful. Does anyone have any recommendations on how we can take this back to the projects and sort of convince them that it's useful. And some of these are very useful at sort of a higher macro level but if I'm just some maintainer. You know, would this convince me. So I guess what I'm wondering is, how can we go back and use this to convince the projects to put information in the quarterly reports and to do them on time. Yeah, it's a good question. You know, in the end I do believe that maybe it's not obvious, maybe we need to be more blunt on this page. But one of the things that I think it does is lend itself to people using the projects. Which in turn lends itself to potentially new contributors coming in, which may end up having more people wanting to be maintainers right. So, it's not completely intuitive or obvious that that's the case right but the more you get the word out about your project, the more likely you're going to see people using and wanting to contribute is my thought. That that's me is I think the, the carrot side of the house right instead of the stick side of the house that we were talking about last week with the issue of, you know, if somebody hasn't submitted their quarterly report, what do we do. So that's that's I think we're not hurt. I think that's enough of a carrot for a project like fabric, say that, you know, has tons and tons of marketing and, you know, lots of people, if you're looking for fabric, and how to get the word out there are going to be there are tons of blog posts there. There are tons of things that are more accessible than the quarterly report. Yeah, that's another good point. I can tell you this would motivate me to do it so. It would not. It would talking from a fabric maintainer perspective. I'm still motivated to do quarterly reports for these reasons. And well, Dave, I wanted to apologize for the calendar snafu. I, I had bumped the calendar for one in one place and not the other so I'm going through right now fixing all the calendar stuff so that was that was my oversight. Okay. All right. So, we've got one vote for yes it would be enough. Whether or not that's great for everybody I don't know, but we at least have one vote for that. Peter. I have two ideas on addressing that specific concern that was just raised that it's not being seen by enough people. So the first idea there would be to recommend two projects to publish these reports themselves either on the project read me or or in some other markdown document that the meeting things to. And then the second idea, which I'm not even sure if it's a carrier stick everyone can decide for themselves but we could say that. We will start publishing the quarterly reports in some high visibility area of the organization like developer newsletter. And then that could give additional motivation to people thinking well, I have to go and write that quarterly report and I actually have to put in the best parts that I want to highlight because people will read this and I will get more contributors if I do it right. Thanks Peter. Sorry for all my talking. I want to push back on a little bit of this because, generally speaking, the quarterly reports are not super useful or necessary when projects are doing well right. The, the most important aspect of the quarterly reports is to see sort of, you know, is for the TSC to see that projects are sort of not doing well, and to be able to help them, you know, in sort of whatever way they can right. And so if I'm a project and I submit a negative quarterly report I say hey, you know, things aren't going so well. You know, here's why we think this is the case, you know, that's, that's the most useful information to the TSC. And, you know, if I'm a project that submits this negative quarterly report I'm not sure I want this like marketed, you know, like, you know, Emperor Ledger XYZ struggling with blah, blah, blah, right. So, so I'm not sure that this is really what we want to do, because it might encourage people to sort of write like falsely positive quarterly reports right I mean we want people to sort of be able to express issues. Right, you know, and say hey we're having problems we need help. And I'm not sure if we, you know, if this is like going to the governing board this is great right you know the governing board can see the issues. But if we're saying let's let's market these. Maybe that's not the best idea. True. I can see that. I think the other thing that we're grasping for here is, gosh, it would be nice to be able to brag about some of the projects we're not as tightly involved in, and certainly the marketing folks would love to have more content and material. I think most of the folks that we've listed here in bullet points that might reshare this information are smart about what they're going to reshare. And I think it's, it's fair to call out that the quarter reports are internal use reports. They're not really meant to be published in a press release. But they are useful tools to figuring out what could be published, and what could be marketed. And I think that's what we're grasping at here is, even for a project that's doing really well. There's probably a bunch of stuff you could put in your quarterly report would that would help us take it to the next level, or, you know, publish all those good things that are going well. And, you know, we don't want it just to be about, gosh, we had a problem finding maintainers or the build was late or we had a hard time turning around this CVE. We want it to be about all the things that are going on in the project. It's meant to be a snapshot that tells the truth, not just the good and not just the bad. I agree with that Nathan, I think it's important that we see the whole story, right, not just a piece of the story be that good or bad. You know, I think that the other piece to is that these project reports and maybe this is something that should probably be highlighted here. And if we see that there's, you know, a third of our projects that are struggling with some particular problem. Right. And they're all struggling and some similar sort of way. It might lead the TSE to say you know what there's a there's something here that we need to spend some time on to think through and and really, you know, decided there's something that we can write as far as best practices or guides that will help our projects as they struggle with this particular issue. You know, I think that we have done a reasonable job in the past of picking out things that have been highlighted and trying to address those problems in the TSE. Right now maybe we've not always been successful in that, but I think I think that they do give us direction. As far as things that we should be focused on. So, completely agree with you Nathan. Any other thoughts on this particular piece. I have a question actually shouldn't we try to implement some sort of template for this quarterly review project reports. So I because the question I'm asking myself is what are the actual point of having this report and what we are trying to achieve by reading this report. You have fully mentioned that we're trying to understand to assess the health of the project or whenever they struggle with a certain problem. So we'll be able to address or we will be aware of them, but you know, shouldn't we be a bit more precise on what are the problems we're trying to look or what are the metrics of the project healthness that we would like to measure in this report and implement some sort of template just to look after. Yeah, so we do have this template here that we put together surrounding the project updates. So each of the different different projects would use this to go through. And I think goes to the wrong spot so sorry I got distracted. So we do have this gym is saying last week suggested that maybe we need to go through this again this template and see if there's other things that we need to be including in here and maybe not relevant anymore. Things that we should change in this particular template so I encourage you all to to have a look at this template and if there are any sort of suggestions or sort of things that we think are overkill or that we should add right to this particular template to to let us know right. Jim, like I said has taken on the action to kind of go through this and provide kind of a first sort of readouts to the TSE about things that could change but I'm sure he would appreciate any thoughts or input into that as well. Okay, thanks Peter. Yeah, no problem. I have a simpler template for those who are in the camp of my project is small and I don't want to spend too much time on it and for them there would be just two questions. This is your project alive, you know true or false. Do you need any help from the TSE true or false and then if you need help then continue typing otherwise. And then we could maybe convince them to to use a simpler template if they feel like that's all they need heart. So I've said this before but I'm curious, and this might involve a good deal of work but I'm curious about the degree to which we could automate a lot of this stuff, particularly with LFX right so like releases right you know that should be something we can pull from GitHub right. Overall activity right you know I can pull the, I can pull the like email and chat number of messages response time all of that stuff right contributor diversity maintainer diversity all of this. You know, at least in theory, we can just pull automatically right. And if we do this, you know, you know I don't know how much work this would be. But but if this were possible, it would you know potentially give people reading the report much better information. And it would also sort of save time writing the reports right. You know every you don't have to go back and click and you know copy and paste like oh here's this release here is this release, you know was this before after the project. You know was this before after the last report. So, so sort of all of this kind of stuff. You know I think the more we can automate here the better, and I don't know how possible it is to integrate this into the quarterly reports, but I, you know, LFX does have a lot of this information pulled already. And I know that's been suggested many times hurt. So, I know it's something that Jim was interested in doing as well as taking a look and seeing what might be automated what might not be automated. So Peter I did ignore your question I was hoping somebody else had a thought on your question or your comment before I jumped into respond I wasn't. It wasn't that I was like okay I'm not going to answer this so I did want to come back to it. I, I have some initial reaction to that and it's not a good reaction so that's why I'm struggling to try and respond to it. And I think that a lot of this has to do with. I know whether a project is truly struggling or not. You know, is a yes no answer enough. I think that you know the more, the more words you can put behind a yes answer, or a no answer allows for people to really truly understand that that full scope of the picture. You know, I also understand that people are saying hey we're, we're healthy, we don't want to move. You know we don't want to spend a whole lot of time on these project reports or we're a small group of people. We don't really have a lot of time to spend on what we would consider busy work. Right. And so, I think that what we have to do is find alternative mechanisms, be that the automation of information that will help us to understand what's going on, or, or something else, right that that would allow for a yes answer to make sense to us or no answer to make sense to us. So, Dave, and your, your first. Yeah, I mean I don't think the template is too bad to be honest. I think it would help to automate a few things like we can get commit counts and things like that pretty easily I would think or we can at least help people, you know, and more automated way how they could get that themselves to put in in the interim. But I don't think it deserves like a separate template for smaller projects or anything like that I mean people can put in as much or as little as they want. I think we found it to be too, you know, overly onerous. And I think words do help in addition to like metrics words tell a whole different story, or can tell a whole different story than the metrics so I think at least give people the opportunity to answer the various template fields, I think it's still a good idea. David. A couple of thoughts one in terms of the busy work angle we had heard that from the sig chairs that doing a quarterly report was too much so we did move to twice a year so you know every six months and then that that could just be something to consider. That's really a concern if every three weeks or excuse me every three months feels like too much, and then plus one to all the comments about automation I do think there might be some key metrics we do want to look at more regularly. And that could be something that gets pulled from insights are pulled from other ways you know a rune has pulled some data from start here I think the data is out there we just have to excuse me, but the dog we have to decide what's relevant and I think we, the data is there we can pull it together, we want. I would, I would hesitate to go to twice a year. I know that one of the projects that is currently overdue for their report actually hasn't had a commitment six months, but yet we're just kind of finding out now that things are not happening in that project because they're not submitting their quarterly report. So, you know I think we wait six months and we have the potential of a year going by before we realize that nobody's been doing anything on a particular project. For sure, but that's without the automation if we had some sort of, in addition to the reports we also had some sort of automated data about projects that would get flagged in theory. Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you look in the hyperledger community. Whatever it's called lab. There is a project reports. There's a feature in there that actually uses GitHub stats to return results about kind of the new contributors, the contributors that are active the contributors that are falling away that contributors that accord contributors versus regular contributors, versus maybe one time contributors. So there's actually a lot of detail that you can get from the GitHub stats about a project and the success of that and I think, you know, we just what, however long it's been, maybe it's been a year now with the pandemic I have no sense of time but the DLF insights right tool is is somewhat new, and has definitely been introduced since we introduced the project reports back in the day. So, I think there's a lot of things that we might do differently. Right. Yeah, if I could share my screen for a second. Oh, sure. So this is a rendered version of the tool that Tracy just mentioned. It's pretty easy to run. And it's, but I don't, you know, there aren't a lot of greens, as I look across all the, all the projects. But let's see. Maybe the overall hyperledger one will show like here are the new contributors to hyperledger in the last quarter, I think. And I would encourage anyone that has interest to grab that tool and give it a run. And the great, the great thing about the tool is it can be run across any repo or set of repos that you want so. And you don't have to look at the health summary, you can just look at the detailed summaries of, you know, who's new who's contributed more than once who's active that sort of thing so anybody wants to take a look at that. David. I'm going to guess his hand is up by accident. Before. Okay. Maybe we've lost it. The dog asked him to go outside or something. All right. Any other questions or comments about kind of the importance of project reports. There was one other thing on the agenda that we will not have time to get to today is the kind of services for projects and labs that David and I had put together. And David had taken the opportunity to move that to a table format. Yeah, I know he's already got some comments from that, but please take the time to review that and provide any sort of additional thoughts or input to David on that. We will also then at some point in a future TSC meeting take a look at, you know, these differences between the different projects and labs and what what is available for them. So we want to think about, you know, are there additional sorts of things that we should offer to a graduated project versus a lab or versus an incubated project. And Tracy, thanks for pointing that out and I am here and I was doing some dealing with some dog stuff earlier. There has been some initial comments so far so thanks for the feedback and maybe between now and the next time we talk on our end we can do some brainstorming about additional incentives because I've seen at least two people mentioned that maybe some additional resources are needed at the graduated level so if everybody wants to be thinking about if it feels like some more incentives are needed what those would be that would be great but we'll do some thinking on our end as well and bring some ideas. Sounds great. Thanks David. All right, so with that, we are at the top of the hour I'm going to close. So thank you for your participation and we will see you again next week.