 Let's get this show going. What do you say, Brian? Let's do it. Okay, today we've got Brian Greenwald in talking to us. Spoiler alert, he's kind of on vacation and he stopped his vacation time to come talk with us on the nonprofit show. So you are my hero of the week. And you would do that, Brian. I am very, very impressed. I talked to Julie yesterday. Well, it's really great. Today, we're going to ask Brian to talk about tech and we're going to ask him the big question, can tech save nonprofits? Big dramatic answer. Well, absolutely not. And as a technology company, that's often surprises people when we say that essentially technology is not the solution to anything in its own right, right? So I'm going to qualify here, but absolutely if you go into that conversation thinking about technology as some sort of magic solution to your issues, you're going to probably end up creating more problems than you solve and we see this time and time again. Okay, well, we have a lot of questions and before we get to those, we want to thank our sponsors. Without you, we would not be having conversations like we're going to have today with Brian Greenwald. And wow, that's a pretty tough, I mean, that's a big topic. So we're excited to hear what Brian has to say. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. Jared Ransom, my intrepid co-host is actually, this is so bizarre Brian, but she's also in Florida, where you are coming to us from. Oh, I'll grab a cup of coffee with her later. Different parts. Well, I think you're in different parts of the state, but that's pretty cool. So we will be welcoming back Jared next week. And Jared always has an interesting thing that she does on every time she travels. She engages with one nonprofit out of town or in the community where she's visiting. So we'll hear what her experience was. Okay, so the big topic of the day can tech save nonprofits. And you were saying no. And before we do that, I want you to talk to us about how you've created this viewpoint. You serve with a really interesting company called Generate Impact. Let's start there. Tell us what Generate Impact does. So Generate Impact, in terms of nuts and bolts is a technology services company, which based on my views on this, our views on this is sort of maybe a different angle. We provide a really broad range of services to humanitarian, social impact and sustainability organizations and causes exclusively. And the reason we do that is because we believe that it's time for a benevolence economy. So that means that organizations need to be profit-enabled, not profit-driven. And we need to think of organizations as contributions to well-being and fulfillment for everyone. And so in a nutshell, what that means is that for-profit companies need to behave more like non-profits. And likewise, in terms of the way that people are using technology or bringing in innovative ideas from for-profit maybe non-profits need to operate a little bit more like for-profits. And so basically we work with organizations in a deep partnership model to help them find the more human-centered, sustainable way to use technology and whether that's custom development all the way into platform technology where we're a Microsoft tech for social impact partner. And we really start with the human element in everything we do. So let's dive into that a little bit. And when you say the human element, what does that mean? Is that being user-friendly or explain what that means to us? Yeah, so it's basically taking a human-centered approach to technology. So the premise of the question can technology save non-profits? Well, of course not. Human beings do things, right? And so you have to start by thinking about who it's for. So the premise of the question is wrong. You need to back up from there. You need to think about who is this for? Who's going to use it? Who's going to maintain it? How are you gonna convince people to use it? People are not accumulations of ones and zeros. They have emotions. They have needs that go beyond the digital tools that they're given. And so you have to start a step backwards. What are the business issues you're trying to solve? How are we going to enable people who are using this technology to be the best version of themselves and to be able to focus most of their energy and passion on the mission and the people that whose lives are impacted by their work? So you need to step back from technology and actually, interestingly, take a technology-last approach. So first think about adoption, then about lifecycle management. And then in a co-creation process, and that's where techniques like human-centered design and design thinking are really helpful to bring people along with you, not only the people who are using the technology, but the people who are benefiting from the mission of that organization, to make sure that you're solving the right problems, to just take a tool and plug it in and think that that's going to actually solve the issues of culture, the issues of process, organizational friction, efficiency. It's just not realistic. And so taking the step back and thinking about the people involved first really makes a huge difference. You know, I'm fascinated by this approach that you're taking. And one of them is that I'm thinking back about say five years ago when we started seeing events using cell phone integrations, forbidding and fundraising. And the big discussion was will, and this is gonna sound very crass, but this was what everybody was saying, will older wealthy patrons without their smartphones and use this bidding technology and will we see a plummet of potential revenue during big, big events? And, you know, that was listening to you. I see that that was kind of maybe the wrong question that we should have been asking because it was just such a narrow focus on one aspect that really is a one and done problem if you look at it that way versus moving it across the organization and understanding how just smartphone technology would work. I mean, what are you seeing just in the past five years? Probably a lot of changes. I know I have. Yeah, anecdotally, I was just with my 80 year old mother the other day and she was doing everything on her cell phone. So I think that to sort of over generalize or to think that there's this sort of pat answer because based on, you know, the past is kind of missing the point. And again, it's the same thing. You have to meet people where they are. You have to provide multiple channels for folks to do things. The thing is though, when you're talking about digital experiences, you really wanna start with a mobile first design approach. Because most people are interacting with the rest of the world through their mobile devices. And now, especially with the lifestyles that we're living where work and leisure and basically our everyday lives are so, you know, location and time shifted, having a mobile strategy is critical. And so we usually recommend that you whether you're building your website or a progressive web app that you start with mobile first design and then build out the desktop experiences because, you know, people are on go, they're on the move. I was on the beach yesterday answering work emails. And so I think that just meeting people where they are and starting with considering how are people living? How are people engaging with the world and bringing that experience to them? Do you think that this has really been pushed forward more rapidly because of the pandemic? Or do you have a, I mean, I know that we're starting, we're talking about recovery. And this was one of the reasons why we wanted to have you on is that, you know, I know Jared and I have in our teams are really focused on moving forward into a recovery mindset, but I'm just so curious. And I think nonprofits didn't think about this as much as they were forced into. Well, I mean, I don't think it's just nonprofits. I think all of us, right? So I worked from home for a few years now. And so Zoom and sort of video calls, that's been, you know, I managed a global team. Now this genie is out of the bottle, right? So we're not going back to the days where you hop in your car and you drive 25 minutes and you sit at your PC and you work from nine to five and then you go home. We are going to be living this way. There's gonna be a permanent change and we have to be ready for it. And, you know, whether it's your clients or whether it's your constituents or your donors or whether it's your volunteers, you have to meet them where they are. You have to go where they are. So this is a permanent change. And we absolutely are seeing that this is something that everyone needs to adapt to, especially nonprofits, because it's so much about the relationship that you have with folks and your ability to stay in touch with them for them to feel valued. Because at the end of the day, people make choices based on their emotions, not based on logic, right? So if you can build that relationship with them, meet them where they are, they will stay connected and engaged with you. Yeah, absolutely. Now let me pivot just a little bit. And when we talk about technology and we talk about, you know, understanding some of these fundamental issues that we should be talking about before we start adopting technology, this is the thing that I hear all the time. And I'm sure that you do as well. Yeah, that sounds great, Brian, but I'm working with limited staff. And so there's a part of us, I think that says, okay, because we're working with limited staff, we need technology because it helps amplify the workload and the process of a fewer people. Is that realistic? Well, yes, it is realistic. However, you need to think about it a certain way. So what we have found, and this has been sort of how we've shaped our business and why we built our business the way we did, is that these organizations, and we're not just talking about mom and pop nonprofits, we're talking about major multinational humanitarian organizations, are technology rich and resource poor. Because the best product technology still needs a lot of expertise, it needs a lot of care, it needs a lot of feeding, it needs some life cycle management. So you have to think about how is it gonna grow with us? How are we going to maintain it? How are we gonna support our users? And so you can get there by focusing on where am I doing all the busy work? Where am I doing the work that can be replaced with automation? Where am I doing the work that can be where I can be integrating systems, possibly consolidating to fewer platforms, but then allowing data to flow in between different systems, right? And so what we really usually recommend is don't take a piecemeal approach. Take an approach where you have basically a deep partner that has broad expertise, but also is focused on your mission, right? And can help you fill the gaps because the resources that I'm talking about are usually the technical expertise. Technology workers are very much in demand right now. It's gonna be very hard for organizations that can pay less to bring that top talent to really innovate and to keep these systems homing. And that's where a partner who is mission focused can really help. I love what you just said because that's a great reminder. The reality of having somebody in an office, in our organization is just not gonna, is not there. We're not gonna have that tech onsite, on-person, IT person as they used to call them. I mean, one of the things that I'd like to revisit and I think that you said this very subtly and I'm gonna push you a little bit, that is is that generation impact is, I like to use the word agnostic when it comes to technology. I think it's really important to understand that when you are communicating with us, you all don't have your own software platform that you're saying all these things because your product does it, right? I mean. Yeah, no, we made a choice that we wanted to be technology agnostic because we're again, human focused. So what might be right for one organization, say Google Workspace because of what their needs are? Might not be right for another one that needs something more enterprise like M365. There are great CRMs out there, but they're not gonna fit every use case. That's the thing, the reason why we chose to have custom development along with platform technology services is because we found that the patterns of issues of resource constraints, of lack of integration, of issues with adoption and life cycle management. There's no product that's going to solve because they have to appeal to a broad audience that's gonna solve for every need. And so you need a mix, you need to be on a continuum. And there's ways by combining platform products and combining custom development around the edges that you can create something that is working for your organization's mission, which is unique. Okay, so I love this approach. And I think you sound like a rock star when you say that. And I'm like all in because I know some of your clients that are really big players in human services that are global are gonna have completely different needs. And I get that. But I have to ask the B word question, working with a budget. This sounds really expensive. And some of your big, big organizations probably have much deeper pockets to navigate these things that you're talking about. But what if you're looking at an organization with under a million dollar budget? Well, that's another place that we made. So we believe as a profit-enabled and not a profit-driven business that we need to focus on all levels, right? So we actually really aren't like that. So it sounds expensive when you think about it, but it actually is about scaling the solution and the engagement to the needs of the organization, right? It's not a one size fits all. That's why we usually recommend that before you actually invest any budget that you, or budget and implementation that you focus first on doing it, what we call a discovery. And a discovery is a limited facilitated fixed price engagement where you're actually doing that exploration. You're surfacing the right insights. You're building out a roadmap to a future. And then of course, the process of the discovery allows you to scale that up and down based on available budget. So I think that that's where having a mission-focused partner is really important because we know that every dollar is a donor dollar and it's sacred. It's not the profit margin from selling widgets, right? It's someone's heart is in that dollar. And so it has to be used very, very carefully. And so that's why discoveries reduce that risk because you're not making commitments before you've actually explored the real issues and you have built a roadmap that is scaled to what your budget is. You know, it's interesting, Brian, that you'd say that. I think one of my favorite lines is you don't know what you don't know. And that whole thing of like the very first statement can technology save nonprofits. So we, I feel like there's such a bizarre level of expectation to delivery when it comes to nonprofit, nonprofit management, donor relation management, you know, even management of operations. And we were like, oh my gosh, we could just get XYZ technology we're gonna solve all the problems. And then you see these organizations just to send into disappointment and then dysfunction and they blame it on the technology. And I'm wondering if that's because they haven't done this discovery piece. That's right. So, you know, the whole purpose of taking a step back from the technology and taking what we like to call a technology last approach is the first you consider the people who are the people that need to use it? What's their skills level? What's their comfort level? What do they like about what they're currently doing and dislike, what are their challenges? What does an ideal future state look like? So you start by really considering what's the work culture that might prevent roadblocks and friction points to actually making that change, change, even good change can be very difficult, right? So there's that. And then from there, then you have to look at process, right, so process, technology is just an accelerator of process when you really think about it. And that's what we see, technology is not a solution, it's an accelerator. So you have to be able to like, if we had no technology, how could we do this in a way where everyone is able to be the best version of themselves on a daily basis in their work, right? And so once you've figured that out, then it's like, where are there opportunities for technology to make this more efficient, more effective, more impactful? So we have to think about technology as an accelerator, but if you don't do those first things and you just say, well, what's the tool that's gonna solve my problems? Nine times out of 10, you are going to be disappointed because technology has its limitations, right? And so thinking about it in terms of the people who need to use it and the day-to-day processes that they need to execute on, that is a much wiser way. And then thinking about it for the long-term and starting with adoption, okay, how are we gonna get this team to buy in? And then how are we going to maintain this on a daily basis and let it grow? We believe that these organizations that are taking on these new technologies should be supported towards self-sufficiency, should be supported that they should be able to maintain it and being practical about that. So it's not necessarily the shiniest, fanciest tool, it's the tool that will work, right? Cause at the end of the day, it's not about what tools you have, it's about how many people did you feed and how many people did you clothe and how many lives did you improve? And so technology is just one of the many tools, but it's actually the eyes, ears, hands and hearts of the people that actually make it happen. And so that's where the focus needs to be. Exactly, you know, one of the things that we're talking a lot about and we don't have much time left, I warned you this would go by critically, but one of the things that we're seeing is amazing demographic shift. We're seeing that our leadership is aging out, retiring, we're combining that with some compassion fatigue and so they're not lasting as long in the work nonprofit work environment. Then we see this like new group coming in, we are now moving in a labor pool where we have more millennials than we have any other demographic. So those folks are much more technologically adept. And it seems to me like we have this older leadership that's not so hip on investing in technology upfront and they're a little bit more reticent. And then the frustration comes with this other demographic. And I'm wondering if you are seeing that or maybe I'm just revealing my age in my demographic. But what do you see about that? Well, I think that in some of the organizations, I think that there's sometimes, it's like investing in marketing, like it's not a cost, it's an investment, right? And so I think about how you make that argument, like can you afford not to do this is really more the conversation that we should be having. And what is the, yes, you might be investing X or Y, but where are you going to have this much efficiency in your team? How much, even your staff might end up being able to be smaller, how much more you can redirect resources to the front lines of the mission, if on the back end fewer people can sort of be the support staff, right? So I think that if you're a leader, you have to be thinking about this. And I think that just evolution is going to, like the folks who don't get on board will be left behind and it will be obvious. But I'll say this about the younger generation that's coming up, I still count myself among them. You're young. Is that what we're seeing is that people want to be involved in something with purpose. One of my mentors said that the quality of your life is actually based on the emotions that you feel not the material that you collect. And I think that what we're seeing and you're just the people who are getting excited about generate impact in other organizations like us, they wanna be involved in something that mattered. They wanna be involved in something that's making a difference. They recognize that the quality of their life is directly related to the quality of the lives of the people around them. And so that's why we believe benevolence economy is what we need. And that means that for-profits need to do more than just write checks and have days of caring. They need to rethink their mission as being contributing and not extracting. And we have a lot to learn from nonprofits in that regard. And nonprofits have a lot to learn about how to run a kick butt business that gets things done and innovates because in the for-profit world, if you're not innovating, you're falling behind. And so that's where I think this deep partnership model between technology companies and nonprofits for-profit companies and nonprofits of like coming a little closer together and thinking about it. And millennials will just race to be a part of those organizations. Yeah, yeah, I love the way you phrase that. I think that is one of those things that the other leadership generations are missing. Is that drive to do something of meaning and social impact with millennials is becoming such a direct influencer of decision-making. And that if nonprofits miss that piece, they're gonna miss out on an entire demographic, not only with donors, but with leadership, with policymakers. I mean, it has pressure that is really exciting, but it's really exerting itself down onto the nonprofit sector. And we're not talking enough about it, I think, because it's somewhat of a newer discussion, but it's a huge, huge piece of the pie and piece of success moving forward. And I think we were starting to talk about it with the pandemic, when the pandemic hit, then it kind of stuttered a little bit and we kind of had to move into some other things. But we saw the impact of that with millennials being able to adopt very quickly the technology needed to work from home. Absolutely. Think about it. I mean, they were like right on it. And it was all of the older demographics that was struggling and all of the funny memes and even Saturday Night Live did a piece on the older workers of an office were just had to get into bed after each Zoom call because they were so freaked out. You know, it's an interesting conversation to have as we move forward. I could talk to you for days because this is like my, this is what I love. I love trend work. I love the technological aspect and change that we're seeing in our sector. And if Jared was here, she would remind us that we have been due for a shake-up and a disruption in the nonprofit sector. Shamefully, we have been so behind the curve when it comes to adopting technology. And so it's a new day. And if we don't get on board, we're gonna be really behind in this recovery. But I think it's coming. It's happening. I mean, the conversation that we're having with lots of organizations, they're recognizing that they need to invest in technology. We always say, well, just make sure that you're not leaving the people behind because they're the people who need to use it and those are the people that need to benefit from it. And so I think that that change is coming. But I think you're right. Like what is the lesson of the pandemic and how can we, and that is that we have to live for each other. We have to live for our greater world because this was the first time in my lifetime and I lived through September 11th that absolutely every human being on the planet was impacted equally. That is unique. And so you're right. We can't forget because we vaccinated and we have some sort of normalcy that they're... What can we make out of this ordeal that can change the world in a positive way? Absolutely. That's what we're thinking about every day. I love it. Well, I'm super impressed. I'm just so thrilled that we could have somehow met you. I'm not exactly sure how or how that happened, but it's a great thing. I want everyone to see Brian's information, generateimpact.com, a really interesting website. You need to check it out. They deal with some powerhouse organizations that are doing global relief work all the way to smaller organizations. They've got an amazing team and really an interesting approach to the adoption and the use of technology. And we haven't even really talked today, Brian, about technology and our clients. We've really been talking, and probably because I've led the conversation, staff and donors, but we've missed out this piece of how do we use technology for our clients? And that's like a whole nother discussion because that's what we really need to be talking about is if we are working towards to solve a problem, how are we using technology to help with that? And chances are we're not doing it very well. So again, here's Brian's information, really interesting conversation. I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Jared Ransom, my intrepid co-host will be back next week. If you see her, I think she's in Key West, Brian, even though you're in Florida. But she'll be back to join us. Again, we wanna thank our sponsors. Without you, we would not be having this conversation. Several of our sponsors are tech oriented and so we've been talking about this with them and seeing some of these things. So to have Brian has been really exciting and we'll continue that conversation. We wanna remind everybody that we're launching a new show, Fundraising Events TV. You'll be hearing more and more about it. It's a lot of fun just delving into the issue of making money at events from golf to gallows, from ballrooms to barns. This is where the discussion is going and it's really a lot of fun. Our co-host on that is Jason Champion. So you won't want to miss that. Brian, you blew my mind in a good way today, my friend. Awesome. Well, I'd love to come back and chat again sometime. I think you're a lot of fun. Absolutely. Well, it's really an important discussion and it's one that we all need to be having every day in a thoughtful way. Hey, as we end the show every time, I want to remind you to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everyone. Thanks, Brian.