 Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Thank you supper Why can't I find my camera I I do have my mobile phone and It says doesn't show it it shows The micro link and then the three dots there's the audio options report the problem and FAQs, but not the camera Yes, I'm afraid I think with the mobile. It doesn't work so well with the camera So if you can try the button at the very least we can hear you and we'll have a picture up Okay, okay good So anyway, I'll be here Thanks over Great. So hopefully all the technical side of things is now working well And I would like to welcome you all here to everybody in the room and indeed to all of our colleagues Who are joining us online? My name is Martin Porter. I'm executive chair of CISL in Brussels And in that capacity myself and our my colleagues around the room here and elsewhere are Happy to be able to help everybody launch a report Which we have worked on with the Wuppertile Institute. We have colleagues here who will talk about that today And for us to engage in a discussion, which I think is extremely timely on the role of circularity in particular in the critical raw materials act and To debate how that act can be further strengthened improved enhanced based on the sort of work that we have found In our report To that end, I would like to say a couple of words of thanks in advance first and foremost to our host MEP Sarah Mathieu on my left here who is deeply involved in these discussions in the European Parliament And we'll hear from her in just a second. So thank you in advance for hosting this discussion And also to the we mean business Coalition Which has also been supportive of the work that we have undertaken And is very actively involved in these issues not just in a European but a global context as well and The report I'm pleased to say is something that has been Worked on assiduously by not just the Wuppertile Institute through the lead authors, but the task force That is set up by the corporate leaders group Europe Which it works on materials and products for circular economy and climate This is the task force which you can see explained very briefly in advance here There are a number of leading companies Involved in this and we work together with them to try and find solutions to advance this agenda as rapidly and effectively as possible And we will hear from some of those Today as well as a range of other Perspectives from other stakeholders in this discussion. So thank you to all of you We're delighted that you've all been able to join us here today both speakers and participants And I think with that I will just say a couple of words of housekeeping and house rules. It's obviously a Public meeting It is online as you will have heard and we will be recording it. So I hope we can Trust that everybody is aware of that and we can speak freely and use all the materials as a consequence For those of you in the room If you would like to put a comment or a question once you have heard the various points made Please try and let me know just by raising your hand I will have a colleague who is letting me know of any people online Who are interested in doing the same and I'll try and include you as well when we get to that stage And if you are in the room and would like to speak there is a speaker in front of you Please remember just to press the red button So that you can be heard and when you have finished speaking turn it off And I think for everybody a brief introduction to who you are Very brief before you put your comment would be helpful to all of our speakers. I'm sure With that let me pass over to MEP Matthew and to ask her to offer a few words of context and introduction so Yeah, thanks a lot for that and of course, thank you everyone for joining us here in the room and of course also online I'm really delighted to host this event and of course the launch of your report on circularity and Critical raw materials and I think it's really the perfect timing to do so to discuss these issues Because well my colleagues and I in the environmental committee will be voting on our position when it comes to the CRM act Tomorrow morning and you might recall of course that this proposal is really part of an industrial plan of the commission To to go to a net zero age It was presented in February of of this year together, of course with the net zero Industry act and I think that that really shows that industrial policy is really gaining traction Right now in our in our union and of course It's due to the growing pressure of the geopolitical giants like China like the US that have shown that we can't just Let market players sort out of the economical transition that we need to climate neutrality on their own So for this work, I think we need coordination We need very intense collaboration between the governments between the economical actors Academia the civil society and of course the public at large And I think it's particularly important when it comes to the circular economy because I really think it's it's key to achieve the boost we need to our resilience to increase our locally embedded employment of course and To reduce environmental pressure on our planet So this CRM act is not just a reaction to the American inflation Reduction Act It's also the logical outcome I would say of the Commission's action plan on CRM's that were already published in 2020 and already when we were negotiating in the Parliament's our reaction to that plan I really argued for a very offensive and proactive strategy One that is really centered around Circularity combined of course with systemic shifts in our transport in our energy And builds environmental sectors to mitigate really the expected Increase in demand and I mentioned that Because I feel that mostly the political focus right now is really on the supply chain on the supply Supply site and much less. I would say on the on the demand side So the CRM acts Itself and of course justification for profoundly shortening permitting Procedures and pushing now for new mining projects even in protected nature. I think that that reflects This urge to secure new increased and diversified supply and yes, of course We will need new resources and of course, yes It will take time for us to build an industrial ecosystem that is really based on deep Circularity, but I think we really have to start this now and think long term and Well, I have to admit that China I think understood that forward thinking quite well I think it was Deng Xiaoping that already declared in the 1980s that the Middle East has oil But China has rare earth metals and I don't think it comes as a prize in that sense That China already built quite a robust industrial ecosystem in green technologies in the recent decades The way that it did and I think that we should act similarly today when it comes to circularity and The demand increase mitigation. I think that that way we can really move forward From framing the energy transition as a threat to geopolitical safety and the climate transition Like it has been done very often right now And we can really start appreciating and exploring the many underestimated Secularity strategies that we really have at our disposal and of course that will reduce costs for businesses It will dampen the price When it comes to the increases for those resources and of course Let's not also underestimate that there are huge co-benefits for citizens that really make them worth doing anyway like a longer Lifespan for consumer products like more global more local job opportunities and maintenance and refurbishment in reuse Like better air quality like more and better public transports and so on and I think that many of these mitigation proposals Would be really very popular in Europe a good example for instances I think rural France where you know people have literally been screaming for such a long time for more and better public transport After really years of neglect and a lack of Investment so we need popular support for the transition Let's not forget that already too many people are really questioning whether this new I would say gold rush on critical raw materials is really warranted and You know some people come up to me and tell me that well Europe is really imposing these new Extractions for the big fancy as UV's for the rich They are often very heavily subsidized and you know people with very low incomes are still stuck in their old Petrol car so they get downsides of it, but they don't get the upsides and I think on top of that Well, we would be sacrificing really unique and protected areas and as a result a lot of people in communities really risk Fighting tooth and nail to bury new projects and with that also the EU climate policy So I don't think that it's in the interest of the Green Deal of our security of supply or a driving new Circular industry to really have this focus Settle loan on new mining and a new raw materials So I think the big question is if the CRM acts like it is proposed by the Commission is really delivering Sufficiently, I don't think so in short I think a lot more will be needed both in the act itself and beyond and I already mentioned that these faster Permitting procedures more extraction here in Europe and elsewhere is really right now the main focus of the act But maybe let me just briefly touch on some of the issues that we did improve Hopefully one all goes well in the vote, of course tomorrow. So for instance the non-binding benchmark for recycling capacity So in 2030 They should reach 15% of the total annual demand for CRM's I think it's a start, but it's really not enough So what we have said and what we want to do is that we increase that capacity to at least 25% and we're also asking for recycling targets for CRM's in waste Just like we do by the way in the new battery regulation We also want to have 25% of CRM demands to be covered by secondary materials So these extra measures should really stimulate I think the market development for for the recycled CRM's which for some CRM's right now as you all know, they hardly exist today In the final report, we also expect to vote on a benchmark for mitigation In the demand increase compared to a reference scenario, but was based on the projections from the JRC I think it's quite an innovation and I will hopefully See some member states also seeing set up more creative actions when it comes to the demand side, of course So then there are the national programs on circularity I think that they are quite vague to be honest and they lack really tangible commitments From member states towards achieving the objectives. They will basically do as they please That said and without going too much into detail We do as a as an NV committee add some extra elements there in their programs The member states will now include measures on reuse on waste prevention on the extension of the lifespan of products and so on And we also strengthen a speed of the measures on recycling on recycled content on permanent magnets For instance, and we also think that the commission should propose collection and recycling targets For CRM's in electrical appliances again Just like they have with a battery regulation and on that note I want to conclude by saying we should really look beyond the CRM acts as these measures are for the most part Of course non binding So if we look for instance at the eco design regulation one of the flagship files I would say on circularity that I'm also working on I think that will be really a game changer in my view It's eco design requirements that will allow goods and CRM's to be dismantled to be recycled to be reused or I mean think of the digital products passport, of course that will really provide crucial information on The content of of a product I think without all of that business cases for circularity will remain very hard or really impossible And we should also look at the upcoming changes in the WEEE Directive the end-of-life vehicles directive the waste shipment regulation where we're also Negotiating with the member states right now And I mean for instance our team when it comes to that is really trying to ensure that Waste exports can only take place if waste treatment in the destination Countries is really fully equivalent to that of the EU which I think will probably limit exports and Reduce leakage of CRM's so rather beyond the CRM act itself I think that's where we were able to Adopt some of the recommendations presented in the report today Well, that's it for for now I'd like to to give the floor back and I think that is Now up to Michel of the Rupert Hall Institute to really present the report and I look forward to the discussion afterwards. Thank you Wonderful. Thank you very much indeed setting the scene perfectly for Michael as you said to to officially explain and launch the report Which is called embracing circularity a pathway for strengthening the critical raw materials act Which is now live and I should say if you are interested in tweeting about it during the meeting The hashtag is embracing circularity And we'll make sure everyone can see it online and repeat that at the end But to save you going online and looking at it yourselves Michael will now lead us through the key points of it and we'll then turn to a discussion after that. So Michael the lighted to have you here and over to you. I don't see Okay Thanks a lot. Yes, it's a pleasure to work on the project. I know I want to give you a short overview Of course the report aims different things It want to improve understanding about current and future demand for critical raw materials and strategic raw materials as well in Europe It wants to improve the understanding about key barriers to greater circularity concerning critical raw materials And you want to demonstrate what policies and investments are required to make more circular approach work in practice Therefore the report addresses opportunities and challenges in regard To catering raw materials and the goals of the critical raw materials act It points out solutions and recommendations to reach the set benchmarks and for this we use three different examples of critical raw materials the system of oxides aluminum and magnesium Rare earth elements and lithium Is next Of course, there are different reasons for activities on critical raw materials. We have heard some of this before Raw materials are essential for the EU economy As a whole and especially for the green transition The availability is increasing under pressure what we can see over the last year And commodity market has been very volatile Global supply and demand patterns have changed due to emerging markets and new technologies The challenges related to commodities are interlinked and affected And affect policies in the areas of financial markets development trade industry and foreign affairs And various political instruments are needed in order to address these challenges Within the framework of the EU raw materials initiatives. It was decided to to build up a critical raw materialist and Oops And as a new level and as one relevant instrument Next Well, this is a very well known list of critical raw materials. You all know this news one from from this year It was additionally extended and it's at the moment quite broad Next please Of course, we have a number of EU policies and regulations The US has specific critical raw material relevant strategies and legislations We have heard of them the EU critical raw material action plan conflicts mineral regulation The EU critical raw materials act and the list And furthermore a large number of other EU strategies that have an impact on the green transformation Many of these strategies, especially for the circular economy also have implication on the demand for critical raw materials Next please But of course not only you have strategies. There are many strategies outside the US. Well Similar strategies has been developed, especially in us UK and japan and others as well, but this is the most relevant But this strategy is different in detail But not because of principle different goals, but especially due to different main industries The country's own raw materials and trade relations between countries Next please Of course, here we see the four key objectives of the critical raw materials act It's an own extraction and own processing Recycling and the diversification of supply Next please Now we are going a little bit deeper Building up on raw material extraction capacities is of course one of the goals And the possibilities vary greatly for different raw materials For example, for lithium we have some possibilities To produce it inside the US inside the EU For example in germany or in spain in portugal But the by far best deposits are outside the EU Rare earth elements are Nothing but rare. They are very widespread and of course they are also available in the EU But the extraction in of the EU deposits is much more expensive than from other sources And especially the heavier earth elements are only contained to a very small extent in EU deposits The most relevant deposit for heavier earth elements is still by an opus in china And the content in others is extremely low with some different situations in greenland perhaps And of course Aluminium on bauxite Is not mined in In the EU and the reason is quite simple A bauxite is only built under tropical and subtropical conditions So it cannot exist in Europe because it doesn't long last Yes, next please Another another point is building up on raw material processing capacities. That is something that happens Over a long time But it's sometimes challenging as well Especially it's a moment because of high electricity prices or energy prices At all we can see the situation at the aluminium industry is quite difficult Perhaps not in Norway But this outside the EU but especially in germany the biggest primary smelter was closed Because of costs and On the other hand, we have additionally more cost intensive and Environmental and labor standard in the EU than in other regions many regions Of course, we additionally have higher transport cost if you transport raw materials and not the products This depends of course from the kind of raw materials and the amounts that we have to transport but normally there's a difference But nevertheless, as this is quite difficult argument higher cost can lead to innovation of processes such as energy savings This is something that we can see in some of the metal industries For example, that we have more pressure and more innovation But it's still a risk to have more pressure for more innovation We need to take it to account Next please Well, of course recycling is the next possibility Possibility and critical raw material set has Has set up a circular target of 15 percent recycled content by 2030 And of course for some materials this targets has already been achieved for example for aluminium for copper for precious metals We have reached it and for others. It's quite unclear how to achieve the goal for example for earth elements of olisium Perhaps not because we don't know how to recycle it But additionally because we have a very strong Amount of materials so that we don't have the chance to get enough scrap to produce it as well So it's a combination of two things The way of recycling is not always clear but also the amounts that you can recycle are not enough Please next Diversification of supplies of course the next one It's often possible and sometimes it's practiced. It's possible of course as described for earth elements lithium and many others But these are all our cases And it's practiced in case of aluminium But of course it depends on the existing deposits and therefore it's not always possible in the same way But it's connected with the risk of higher cost and displacement of environmental and social Impacts and of course some of the some of the focusing of Only specific deposit is a result of efficiency We focused on specific Iron os because of the higher efficiency of processing and we focused on specific box sets because of a higher efficiency of processing this Please next Oh, no One step. Okay, and we have some interim conclusions before we go further For the different strategies, there are different ways of implement Implementation depending on the raw material some targets have already been achieved. Some are achievable T is used In different processes and products of course a lifetime expansion as one extremely important aspect Is site recycling And for example users of users of way waste streams that it was is described probably for for the Mining wastes in northern sweden that contain relevant amounts of particular raw materials for elements polysium Substitution cannot cure Most light-wired batteries are not needed Then others other possibilities can be used as well and the lifetime expansion is of course always important option and Recycling will be absolutely necessary because we know that the amount of polysium available is relatively limited Next please Of course, we identified some regulatory barriers for implementing CE practices There's a waste leakage to outside the EU. We heard something about it Sometimes a lack of policy signals to shift preferences from rodents to recycled materials Not specifically for critical raw materials, but in general it's not always clear. So we have some restrictions of use of Of recycled materials and it's not always in focus and some policy misalignment Yes, it's not always clear what policy wants in different fields of policy politics And of course, um, we have numerous numerous technical challenges and limits of recycling and this is only a very small number Of course, we have a dynamically changing material composition in many products So it's quite difficult to understand which materials Is included in which product It's always changing We have a strongly increasing use of substances So if we have a stock building And we need for an effect effective collection and separation of clean waste streams and more locally recycling infrastructures That means not always every that everything must be recycled locally, but it should be more locally And of course, um, this can mean for aluminium We need more material uniform uniformity to work with us Politium we have to handle a very wide range of inputs for our elements. It's a very demanding and costly separation process next please And of course, we have some challenges for business adoption change in business models having a clearer business cases economic variability volume requirements to be competitive Lack of value chain collaboration and lack of information. It's quite often a problem between The stakeholder as a part of the value chain Protection of business knowledge always a problem and logistical challenges as well We have some conclusion and recommendations from this, of course Uh, we should implement a more comprehensive circular approach within the critical raw material Act rather than focusing only on recycling things like livestock lifetime attention is also relevant efficiency is relevant We should set a flexible approach towards circularity within the critical raw material acts that recognizes the need for case by case approach Deploy forward-looking infrastructure to enable a system-wide circular economy and next Set a clear overall vision on the european industrial strategy that combines circularity carbon neutrality and causes sustainability aspects Create a more environment And socially sustainable supply chain by diversifying supply chains and promoting responsible mining practices And implement in financial incentives and support schemes To ensure factor the commercial availability of the shift towards green technologies Up with this I come to the end Thanks a lot If you have any questions michael, thank you very much indeed and we will I'm sure we'll have questions We will have some reflections and observations On this I should say the report itself obviously goes into all of those Areas in in much more depth and hopefully you all have a chance to dig into the detail After the meeting if not during it And we I think just for the purposes of this meeting before we get into a substantive question and answer session If there are any questions of clarification Or specific questions about what michael has just said If anyone has those now then maybe we could take them Otherwise, I suggest that we go to the reflections and responses from from our invited guests And any others after after that, but I presume there are no questions of of clarification I don't see any nothing online either So with that let me pass to one of our online Guests siapa. I hope you're still connected And can hear me can hear us Siapa I can hear you Happy to join you from Finland. I hope you can hear me Great, we can hear you for the benefit of those not in the room. This is siapa fietikainen a member of the european parliament Someone who's worked on these issues for many years And is a member of the epp group as well. So Siapa, we look forward to hearing your reflections on what you've just heard Well, uh, gladly, um, and I hope that I can say some hopes and wishes for you for your future work because Unfortunately, I have to say I'm extremely disappointed with this Commissar's proposal and let me tell you why First if we look we would need to take a prolonged vision That means beyond the 30 years And if you look the whole idea of circular economy know that we have more people we have more goods We need a we have a longer Um, you know sort the time span of the use of the goods and so forth the story we know But that all leads to the fact that we need tenfold resource efficiency in all of the goods And services So this is not a minor change and then when the commission comes from this, uh, Let's mind it and produce it ourselves Even though the circular economy is part of it. It is based on this kind of a Business as usual thinking that Goes to way too low targets both in the circularity In recycling plus then thinking the whole cruise Uh, I must have left some of the amendments there and what I wish we could all push forward Uh here in the report and even more important than all the practices of the businesses Is this kind of a thinking that first replace? We know that uh Sooner or later, even though we would have a european mining The the existing moderate levels of circularity. We are going to run out of Aluminium we are going to run out of copper. We are going to run out of most of the critical robot areas And at the same time, we know that there's a lot of new beautiful innovations on the pipeline already in the market like Uh, uh, sold batteries that are abundant material Uh Cheaper and actually more effective that are already used in in some of the practices in in china And they are on on research rates in uh facing various parts of the world And think if you do not start strategically thinking where and how we have to replace critical critical Very hard mining problematic raw materials with some other types of the materials This same goes with aluminium not only lithium and sold batteries where Quite a number of these solutions can can be in the future The used that based on the magnesium or then this new composite materials where you can use the plastics from recycling So first think how you can replace something that is Uh critical with abundant and something that is environmentally harmful With something that is not And think of the case that the finland for example will be filled with lithium Mining mines After 10 or 15 years when probably china is floating in our markets This old batteries well good for the environment And that's why it would be better to to avoid this kind of sunk investments and side Tracks that i'm afraid we are going to create a lot Lot lots lots with this kind of a thing Then the second uh point that should be put there on place is the reuse And the circularity would be put uh need to be put on The uh full list So instead of talking about 15 or 20 or even 50 percent of a recycling We should be talking about um 100 percent in quotes or 80 percent Well, uh resource efficiency recycling rates Uh before the 20 40 and if you say it is impossible Well, I think that we destroyed the planet sounds to be to me much more impossible in in practice and then, uh You should have sort of a this kind of a environmental impacts for assessment first number one How you can replace If there's the possibility to in the longer run, let's say five to 10 years to do it invest on that Then secondly So how much of the materials you can get on use by effective Recycling rates And then only if the environmental impact shows no, you can't manage with the solar panels electricity grid so forth without Opening the mines You should get the green light for starting the mines Then when we know that the mine especially it's a bit different thing with the Wind box because actually you can build a wind block and then if it proves to be not that of a good idea There's always some harm done, but not a major harm. You can sort of replace it or you can You can restore it with some other types of the energy, but then again with the mine No, you can't it is this kind of a one The alternative Where where you would need to have the precautionary principle do it only if you can do it without harm So instead of relaxing the environmental norms And consideration you should tighten them up Only then when you can can have closed mines that is the tunnel mines with closed material use That's sorry. So not to have the mining waste and full cleaning of the Mining water Waters at the waste water treatment systems in place Then you should use it and then if you say it is okay to expensive that means that actually the The prices nowadays are artificially too low and you should wait until it is economically possible Then if you look or whose Agreement and the principles there then when you are doing this kind of a major changes like the mining events You should improve the hearing and participation mechanisms Yes, not weaken them and the right for justice and right for courts And so to me it seems that In in in some of the most important parts actually the commission thinking goes totally on the sidetrack And he's probably going to go of course more harm than than good and that as well for the business and economy Last but not least this kind of artificial three years time for the Allowing the permitting and then you automatically would get the permits goes well in small Things like crids or antennas or wind power solar power, but not in mining You you never can do that that you artificially make the core consideration shorter than what it is And then you would get the permit if if if that is not fair So this is more than strange and it's sort of a threatening the Environmental justice very very core principle So, uh, sorry for being so critical this time But maybe they're being critical with critical raw materials is right on place And then again, if we get the question right this time and now I think That actually designing out of the ways the core principle of circular economy We can actually solve this issue But if we do not do that Then it is going to the sidetrack and noticing After five or ten years that you are there and then sort of a redoing the same thing and that I'm I'm I'm sorry. We just do not have the time. Thank you very much for listening me and now I'm My ears on again with a very high interest for your discussions Michelle to respond when we've had others with respect to what the findings of the report say about the the ideas and the Suggestions that you've made But we're also very lucky to to have uh, george moors doth from the european commission dg grow with us Who can give both? I hope reflections on the report itself and maybe some Responses to to what siapa has has indicated in terms of ambition integration uh, and How to make the the critical raw materials act much more effective in the light with respect to what she is Uh, basically so the floor is yours george Thank you. Um, so thanks for organizing. Um, also thanks to the To the authors for the great report Um, I read it with a lot of interest. Um, I found Interesting. I mean first of all the summary of what we have and what we have proposed but also, um the the policy needs and Especially also what businesses can already do because I find I mean, sometimes it's seen in a bit like simplistic way good against evil or It's a binary choice between virgin and Recycled raw materials, but it's much more complex than that of course And there's a lot that industry already in the current regulatory context Can do improving logistics Have it establishing closed loop business models Looking at the collection and high quality recycling So I think there's a lot of interesting inspiration But then coming to to the regulatory side on which we certainly have to Have to work So our critical raw materials acts that we proposed in march certainly tries to really put a strong focus on circularity So we realize we will need these critical and strategic raw materials for the green and digital transition So we will need a lot more unavoidably Even the most optimistic scenarios for substitution and maybe behavior change. We will still need a lot more So I think there's no no doubt that we will have to produce more also produce more in europe and within what we produce We should of course try as much as possible to Have that come from recycling or even better reuse products so so there We fully agree on also all the criticism that we've just heard But we do believe that a certain balance has to be struck and That's even if we reduce our demand for primary raw materials as much as possible. We will need to increase the share that comes from europe for security reasons and also for reasons of us being relatively More sustainable in in the way we produce these raw materials in europe And so what's in the in the proposal already? Is first of all the target for the first time we set a Target across all strategic raw materials. We say 15 percent. I think what's more important than the exact number where we see We hear some discussions is first of all establishing this framework Establishing a monitoring system so we can follow up and see where it advances and where it doesn't and then we can look more Precisely at those areas We also provide a framework for national action because we realize that While there's a lot of EU competencies. There's also a lot in terms of budgets in terms of Specific implementation that the member states do and that's what we try to coordinate better Through the national circularity strategies There's also a certain waste hierarchy as has been encouraged here Already in the proposal. Of course, it can be beefed up But we do look at possibilities to coordinate better the member state actions in terms of R&D investments into substitution into new recycling technologies We really want to encourage member states within the existing frameworks To establish better collection systems, which as as michel has pointed out is really important to get this This very concentrated inputs to have high quality recycling and not the downcycling we often see So deposit return schemes Can be an instrument there the the power of public procurement So being public procurement practices is something that we want to see in these national circularity strategies And also promoting reuse through other measures And then the third element in our proposal Are the specific rules for two areas and the first one is extractive waste Or also called mine tailings And I found it interesting also to see this example being cited in the report of lkb who's recovering Rare earths and phosphates from iron ore tailings. So that's a great great example What we want to do from the regulatory side is make More likely that those kinds of projects happen. What often holds them back is the lack of information So we want to establish a database across all of europe Where member state authorities and current operators Would be obliged to feed in their data on what what critical raw materials are contained in those In that mining waste and that hopefully will then lead to a lot of similar projects and the second specific area is permanent magnets Also, I think mentioned in the report at least in the sense that in many value chains We see that there's a lack of information being transmitted from the producer to the recycler And that is very much needed because each of the the batteries for example But also permanent magnets has a very different composition and only by knowing precisely what's in there Can we expect high quality? Recycling so there's a lot of specific elements and of course Open to any other good ideas that help us actually achieve these targets if they are set higher But at the same time also what? What mvp mature has pointed out well? This critical raw materials act is not the only game in town. There's a lot of other legislation Recently proposed or more advanced in the legislative process eco design I think is really the most important because it starts where the most important decisions are taken Namely in the design stage. It also produces give this instrument The digital product passport to ensure that information reaches reaches must much better the the actors that actually rely on this information to recycle and reuse And and so I think it's really important to To keep the focus even after Potentially passing then the raw materials act that over the next year's we will be seeing a lot of product specific legislation That we also need to have this let's say supportive coalition for if we say we want higher Recycling targets or reduce demand We also have to give ourselves the instruments to do this and this is not like top-down regulation But there's really what also the report shows that ambitious businesses need this support also to mention the right to repair proposal the green claims the end of life vehicles regulation that we've now proposed So really in all of those areas those proposals set out much more specific Requirements that would help achieve the targets that we set in the raw materials act So I think my message is here. Let's really focus on all of those and work to make those a success And with that I'd like to once again, thank you for the for the great discussion and the report Thank you, George. I'm sure we'll come back to some of that in the in the next round of comments Um, but before we do we'll hear from another policymaking perspective Uh from Raphael Haimes Contreras. I hope I've pronounced that sufficiently well Who works at the balloon agency for export and is responsible for industry and society 5.0 business Development and international affairs or close to that So welcome look forward to hearing your reactions to this and then we'll we'll go back to me P. Matthew. Thank you, Martin Uh, good morning everyone. Uh, I would like to convey my appreciation to the panel organizer for their exceptional coordination effort and Sarah Matthew, a member of european parliament for belgium shadow reporter of angai committee on the critical raw materials act for us as Uh, today I will discuss in two k points. Uh, our reaction to the report on On an unseen circularity on critical raw materials act and our view from our member states Firstly, uh, regarding the report on an unseen circularity We believe it highlights a substantial opportunity Uh, in the very few process from circularity point of view are currently covered by a single european country As supplicians are now interconnected by international trade Therefore the sourcing of critical materials become a matter of graph concern Giving the vital role in numerous modern technologies industries and by station our daily life A the connection between critical materials and the circular economy Has as quite a significant at northland moon across few regions of europe especially in wallonia signs a 2014 The concept of circularity has become a fundamental aspect in addressing the supply challenging challenge of critical materials a one strategy to fortify supply resilience within the European unit is undoubtedly the transition to a circular economy By optimizing the reuse and recycling of materials We can reduce the absolute demand for raw critical materials And this strategy aligns perfectly with wider objective concerning sustainability and resource conservation Subsequently a growing number of european's metals producers And manufacturing companies are adopting the principles of circular economy Accrued their operation However, it is crucial to acknowledge the inherent challenge Recycling cannot meet 100% of the european union demands for critical materials And the process of hope often involve intricate technical and logistical complexities Moreover recycled materials may not consistently Fulfill the precise quality or specification required for certain applications For instance Is a vital component in many aluminium alloys While aluminium is often recycled The process is not perfect and some of the magnesium content is inevitable loss during recycling This necessitates the addition of fresh magnesium to replace the lost content thus contributing to a constant demand for material therefore While reuse may be preferable to recycling from a circular economy perspective The requirement for virgin materials will continue into the foreseeable future This ongoing demand will necessitate international collaboration To ensure a resilient supply chain for critical materials However, this is not the sole solution A holistic approach integrated in efficient circular practices As designed with recycled materials Responsibly sourcing an international collaboration Is essential to effectively address this complex issue The circular economy does not halt at our european linguistic boundaries Necessitating, among other things, legislative harmonization For the transportation of metallic waste and byproducts across national borders The sourcing of critical materials is not merely about meeting current demand But also ensuring we have the resource required for future technological and sustainable advancement Many of these critical materials have never been produced in the volumes Now anticipated Given the swift pace of technological advancement and the rising demand for sustainable technologies We cannot source these materials in the necessary volumes from recycling alone Stampled because there has never been a requirement for such quantities in the past Finally, and significantly, one of the crucial challenges associated with the critical raw materials Is the issue of price volatility Indeed, price volatility exerts a substantial influence on the cost of recycling Secondly, setting up innovation partnerships in line with current european policies And in particular circular energy and digital transition to pursue a metallurgy of the future Based on the circular economy to promote the upcycling of materials and increase The selective collection and recovery of metal waste However, the european union could implement a strict revision to the existing waste shipment regulation Making it more challenging for scrap to be exported outside the european union Certainly, scrap materials often referred to as urban mines are Indeed, a significant source of valuable raw materials. They are increasingly in demand Particularly in regions with growing industrial sectors that require vast quantities of source resource This is the case. Several parts of the world, especially emerging economies, are indeed eager to acquire the european union scrap for various obviously reasons In the other hand To develop and strengthen the collaborative and functional eco design To incentive manufacturers to design products that are easy to recycle or reuse Reducing the overall environment impact Finally Innovation is one of the priorities of european union circular economy strategy Moreover, the renewal process of the smart specialization strategy Lead to the identification and selection of strategic innovation areas for the regions in europe In Wallonia, for instance, one of them is dedicated to circular materials aims to achieving a Wallonia social and environmental objective by becoming europe's recycling valley for technological materials In terms of innovation and deployment of a truly circular economy by 2030 So Yes, there are challenges, but there are opportunities Let's move together to cultivate a more competitive and sustainable europe. Thank you Very good. Thank you. Well, we'll hear from businesses their perspective on this as well, but I think that's a useful link One question actually that strikes me given what you were saying about the demand For the foreseeable future could not be met Without These materials being mined or imported into the european union Have you any Studies that look at the timing when we may get much closer to being able to satisfy that if not fully At what point in the future might that be possible when the stock is So large that we might have the majority if not all coming from reuse and recycling of of existing critical raw materials Have you done any studies on that or is that uh Oh Yes, of course. We have some studies by the problem is the A high evolution the quick evolution. So At that the strategy is not easy Implement new mines to obtain a new material resource. It's not easy because the month 10 15 years Recycling is an opportunity but not now opportunity after 20 30 So the problem is now from now until 20 30 circular economy clearly we we have the opportunity the problem is a we have A the big companies have the the the the resource to implement innovation to invest in Research, but the small companies don't have and 90 percent Of the companies in europe is small and medium size So we need mobile size funding for these small and size companies in order to increase circular economy activities But the problem is and finally just to finish a life cycle life cycle assessment is Between 20,000 and 50,000 euros. So small companies don't have the money for that. So this is a Problem now Thank you. Well, we'll maybe get on to the SME conundrum there in due course as well before I turn to Sarah again We have a couple of questions online if anyone has another question to add I thought I'd introduce these now so that you may be able to respond and then we'll turn to michael as well We have one question about whether If the EU is being open about looking for other suppliers, does that weaken the EU's position and make prices higher? That's from the Slovenian business and research association in Brussels and from somebody from the european aluminium association european aluminium a question about how the parliament Is reaching its views on the targets of 15 40 percent and so on What's the what's the the logic or the rationale behind those those targets? I guess So with those two additional questions, I think you've had quite a lot of Food the thought So maybe I can pass back to you and then we'll turn back to michael as well Sarah Yeah, sure. Thanks a lot And indeed a lot of of food for thought I would say Perhaps to start with maybe A reaction of course to to what my colleague sir pie said when it comes to The the the speeding of of speeding up. Sorry of the of the permitting procedures I think that she's absolutely right In french, we have an expression said in the first bonne idée You think that this is actually going to to speed up the process But I think it will be quite on the contrary and that it can be actually quite detrimental also For public support. I think you will with the smart this this this speeding up of of permitting You really risk people just going to courts over it and being stuck into a very long Story there of of contention and etc. So I think we are not doing ourselves any favors Let alone that it would be a good idea to to lessen Our our requirements when it comes to Treating this in the in the best possible environmental and and social way And maybe also to react to to what Raphael said on the scrap I think we're all quite aware Of of the issue but also of the potential Indeed of of urban mining Within the eu and I really think and of course we still have to We still have to To convince the member states that this is the way to go because it's really the parliament That has said we really need to strengthen The rules on the way shipment directive in the sense that we are Sure That all of the waste and that means also scrap metals etc Are treated in a fully equivalent Manner and I think that that will make a big difference right now also to our Circular and and recycling industries But maybe to to go back a bit To to the report itself There's one of the recommendations and the report really says we need a case by case Approach and avoid covering all the CRMs in a general sense. And I really agree there That's why for instance we as a parliament Are asking the commission to come up with a delegated act that really details The recycling capacity and recycling from waste benchmark for each strategic CRM separately and I mean in any case They're quite Indicative and not binding. So right now the act is not very prescriptive on and and I do Expect Some some flexibility there in the future I think the report also mentions, of course the need for new infrastructure when it comes to collection and recycling Says that the w EE directive really provides very few incentives Right now when it comes to CRMs and and I completely agree. I think it's why we are also asking again the commission to come up with legislative proposals And monitor on on on how much CRMs are actually being put In the markets in electrical appliances The report also mentions this lack of policy signals When it comes to the switch from virgin to secondary and indeed, I think that's also really what I hear When I'm talking to industry for instance and luckily we have tools at place and indeed For instance with an eco design the fact that we would be able to Ask for certain Content targets when it comes to recycled Content like we do in the batteries regulation, for instance is a good way to actually make sure that that That that economic infrastructure also follows and that it's actually worthwhile recuperating them if you compare it to to the raw materials and well It was mentioned of course when it comes to to the industrial strategies I think right now it's been quite insufficient when we're talking circularity I think well, uh, we've we've we've made a start With with the net zero and the CRM, but really it should just be the start I think we are lacking This real coordination this real framework, uh, both on an EU level and on a national level I mean and again if you talk to industry It's important that we do this in a coordinated way. I mean it doesn't make sense To have certain circular or or recycling facilities in every member states. I mean that's that needs to be much more in in a coherent strategy and and framework and maybe finally I think One of the big discussions that we are are yet to embark on We have very clear goals when it comes to to climate We know exactly where we want to To end up and that is of course also a way of of checking if our policies are actually working And I mean we don't have that as of yet when it comes to The reduction of our of our material footprints, so I think there That will be one of the the big discussions if you ask me For the coming term for the coming commission to really come up With a specific target ahead and I think it will help all of us To see if we're actually going on the right path But also really to make sure that we have enough incentives there To to to reach those targets, but yeah, thanks again For for the reports. I think it will really help us in the discussions That are still coming not just on crm But also on a lot of other legislative texts that are still being Being negotiated as we speak So, um, yeah, I really appreciate the discussion and the and the report and I'm sure it will it will help us in the coming weeks and months Thank you. Um, and I think there's a there's a couple of points you mentioned that other reports that we have certainly done recently In this area highlight. So the difficulty of measuring This whole area applies to critical raw materials as well as materials more generally and without that The degree to which we can set targets similar to climate targets Is more challenging But that's a clear area of further work that needs to be undertaken in relation to this as well But you also mentioned industrial strategy And maybe if I can turn to michael to maybe take a few of these points You also indicated in the report areas linked to policy misalignment And policy signals not being sufficient and if you could give a little bit more detail on Some of that in relation to what you've heard that may be interesting as well But there's a huge amount to go through and we have other speakers as well. So, uh, you can pick off what you choose All things that make things easier This was not the first I want to do or simply easy can easily can Say that we want to have more recycling and Additionally that we need more critical raw materials and this is one of the crucial points Yes, we need more of this critical raw materials, but this has a result That's the recycled content can be not high And it's quite difficult to say when it will be high and can be high because we see it for other methods like Aluminium and steel extremely long established processes where we don't reach the 50 percent Recycled content. Yes, because when I was born we have been 3.5 billion people and today we are 8 billion and they all want to have material things It's just growing demand for materials and now we have a technology change so that we need much more of this critical raw materials Additionally and this lead to the problem that the recycling rate can be high but the recycled content is still low And I cannot see when it will end it will end in principle if we have a steady stock society But this is it's a moment for this material is far away Uh, we simulated for this this for steel for perhaps 15 years for the u commissions, but Yes, it's need a long time So this is one of the main aspects that we have to keep in mind Then we have another thing with recycling and the problems of recycling that are relevant from my perspective Of course during recycling we lost materials. It's absolutely clear But sometimes it's quite helpful that we lost materials because if you're recycling also and you have all the Alloys included then you have a problem with the alloys because you don't have the quality you want to have And so you can accumulate sometimes materials Yes, we know the problem with copper and steel and you can have others in other materials as well So sometimes it's quite helpful to lose materials because it's a way of cleaning materials as well To to make it usable. So it's a it's a tricky situation um yes And of course then we discussed a little bit about substitution and of course substitution of country raw materials is a absolutely urgent issue And we have to focus on this very intense But of course on the other hand sometimes it's simply not so easy because the case of we selected the case of lithium because of this unique Um, it's a very unique material. Yes. It's the lightest metal with the highest standard potential This are very chemical terms, but this means This is in principle the best material for producing batteries for light-white Batteries and all other materials are necessarily less good. They are well Yes, and this is a principle of chemistry behind this And therefore it's not so easy to say we have to substitute. Yes for some application It's possible especially for lithium if it's a stationary battery. It's no problem. Yes Sensor weight is not a problem But if you have to transport it if you want to have a battery for a car Something like this then it must be light-white and then it's quite difficult to avoid lithium This are some of the points I mentioned um, uh, the the policy misalignment or the policy signals that that question has come up a number of times Any other thoughts on that before we turn? Yes, um, not so many not much more than I've Told before yes, of course sometimes the signals are going to different directions from different policies Yes, we are going to have safe material safe products And we want to have recycling and both are in In sometimes in opposition. So we need safe products, but sometimes perhaps we do too much it can happen um For example, it's still not allowed to use recycled glass for primary packaging of medicine Yes, it's not a problem of critical raw materials. Yes, but it's a simple for a little bit strange restriction because nothing will happen Yes, and this is the same for all other recycled materials. It's not allowed in primary packaging of medicine Um, not a very important point in a small amount, but things like this happen and uh, yes Thank you. So with that, let's turn to some business perspectives in the report You will have heard that there are a number of case studies a number of practical examples of businesses Looking out the challenges and the opportunities in this in this area And we've got two representatives of companies involved in that. I'm going to pass firstly to selen And then to to helger. I hope that's okay And I guess there are three broad areas we'd like to Sort of direct your comments on firstly a little about a little about the activities you're involved in that In the case study obviously Secondly what your views are on the proposal in the critical raw materials act as we've heard many other comments On that where it could be improved strengthened Help your businesses essentially achieve these goals And then more broadly what else do we need to do to enhance circularity? Um, perhaps in line with what sylpa was saying much more ambitiously Still so with those three broad questions, uh, as I said, we'll turn to selen domek Who's director of public affairs EU for Volvo cars And we'll hear from you first. So the floor is yours selen Thank you very much and thank you a lot for the invitation for today But also for the opportunity to contribute to the report and through the interviews wasn't very interesting experience for us Um, and this report, I mean we we really welcome it and we we can agree with most of the of the recommendation made Thanks for that Maybe I will start by presenting very briefly how we see circularity at Volvo cars and what we're trying to do about it So we have three principles. The first one is to use less material. That's the first thing And that's primary material. That's energy and that's water We need to reduce as much as possible the resources we need to make a car Then uh, we want to eliminate waste and pollution from the production of the car And finally we want to what we have to touch on already. Um, Mrs. Matthew Grow a circular business to change The kind of business model we have and and that's not an easy one um If we start by the primary material if we want to reduce it We will still need some because you need to make the car out of something And so the best thing would be to have recycle content for the cars as much as possible The issue today is that it's not always available Or not always available in the right As you mentioned in the right quality or at the right price as well That's as an impact, you know, if you have to choose between primary material, which is much cheaper than the recycled content It's a tough business decision. Uh, where you go All right, so, uh, here we welcome the crma. Uh, obviously it's it's good to have it It's not the only act that is important, but it's really good to have it and we really need to see Sorry more than on recycling in terms of We have the stick in a way when you put the recycle content mandatory recycle content It's the signal for us obviously, but then you also need The rest to be in place So we really need to see more investment in recycling facilities in europe And we if we take the uh automotive sector Actually, the cars today are recycled to a very high level already But the quality of what is recycled is very rarely reusable in a car Usually it goes to other application, which is fine because it's not lost But that means that if we want to reuse it, we need better quality of recycling So that's really something that we need to see in europe first The other thing is and we mentioned a bit of it refining processing in europe That's something that we don't do much today. Uh, most of it is done outside of europe principally in china Whether we actually reopen mines or or you know dig in europe or not. We still need the processing here Because if we do have more mining in europe, obviously, it doesn't make sense to send it outside of europe to have it processed And then back from a sustainable perspective. It's it's ridiculous But even if we do not mine more in europe and that's a political decision to take it's not for us When you process you also learn a lot about the materials and so you improve your recycling And there's a lot of knowledge which is gained currently outside of europe Especially china and that we are missing on and that's something that needs to happen now We cannot wait because as was mentioned, I mean opening a mine It takes a really long time and permitting should probably not be accelerated for this kind of processes because mining is very heavy Um, but the refining we needed today. So we really need to invest that that would be something we want to see more in Promoted in europe definitely um, and then one of the difficulty as well Um And it has been mentioned some of the critical raw materials we have A lot in our cars But they are in very very small quantities and spread throughout the vehicle and when you want and that's true for our sector It's true for a lot of other sectors who use these critical raw materials And when you want to recycle it what it's first complicated to find where it is And because it's in such small quantities, it's usually very expensive to do it So from the car industry what at least what we are doing with volvo We are trying to concentrate where we put them So in terms of electronics, for example, we are going to try to centralize as much as possible Reduce cabling and so on and so forth to make sure that you know where it is And it's easier to recycle because then it's in bigger quantities That's one thing we can do We can also try as much as possible to design our components to be single material components To avoid as especially for aluminum when you mix the different alloys Then it's more difficult for you to recycle and give us back good quality So we can try to do that And there that comes the tricky thing because their legislation in a way can help of course And and you're trying to do it with the revision of the end of life vehicle But the problem for us is that when you start putting really prescriptive requirements on the way we should do things Typically we do not like that so much because that's Making innovation very complicated I will give you an example which is not in the end of life, but in the battery regulation The parliament was very keen on having cells removable at Well, no that the battery could be repairable at cell level that you could go up to the cell level for for vehicle batteries, right? And we can understand why you want to do that, of course But on the other hand that completely kills the technology of gluing the cell to the body of the car Then you cannot remove it very easily On the one hand you increase circularity if you can change the cell Of course We still have to see whether a battery which has a mix of new cells and already used cell is still as good as before But apart from that cannot do that But if you glue the cells then your vehicle is much lighter So it's more energy efficient and the battery works better and longer So you have to balance and that's a really tricky part And that's you know, when you say there doesn't need to be more policy signals. Yes indeed you need to help us with policy signals because Volvo cars we have quite a small manufacturer If we go and knock on the door of our suppliers and say we need this much recycled content in our vehicles They will say yeah, well not available not possible if legislation says it and we say well, yeah You know, otherwise we don't buy it Then we get it So we need this policy signal, but at the same time We still need sufficient flexibility To be able to innovate to be able to do things maybe differently from another manufacturer And then we learn and then we see which is best and that's how you progress So it's a tricky act. I do not have the answer to how to balance exactly But we are very keen to be involved in the discussions on all these Policies that you mentioned be it eco design being a lab CRMA to try to find this right balance that meets, you know, social needs environmental needs and business needs And maybe one last Point that I have no, I think I have covered the main points I wanted to say, I mean we have a lot of we see a lot of sticks from the industry in terms of regulation We would like to see maybe a bit more carrots as well and not necessarily directly for us as the car sector But yes by promoting more recycling high quality recycling Things like that you help us indirectly, right? And yes, one last thing. Sorry the you mentioned the scrap urban mining Either it can be shipped outside of europe and that's a loss But sometimes it's also today reused in again lower application For example, when you make roads you can use it for road infrastructure Once it's stuck in there roads are not redone every day, right? So it's stuck there for years and it's pity because you have critical materials in there that have not been used So we would like to see is it possible to stock by this kind of ways that we cannot trade today And when recycling has improved because it's improving fast But at the moment it's it's typically one or two industries or companies who are very good But it's not big scale enough So could we keep it on the side and as soon as recycling improved Then push it back to get back the CRM and reuse it in a higher value And that's what you mentioned you know to to keep the value high That's extremely important to retain the value and not downgrade it I think i've covered most of the points I wanted to make as an introduction Wonderful. Thank you very much indeed just one Follow-up question you you quite rightly say this balance between the incentives The regulation can Give to stimulate the market and the degree of flexibility needed to give space for Individual innovation is is a difficult one You also then mentioned that there's a bit more stick than carrot. I think was the phrase Is that an With reference to financial support so the type of industrial strategic support that's also Been debated well beyond critical raw materials, but is it also in relation to that that you're mentioning that? Yeah, in a way if we see other World region, you know incentivizing certain things and we don't do it. We have to do it one way or another It doesn't have to be money It can be through regulation It can be through and there's already plenty of money in the table in the u sometimes not very easy to find it Especially if you're a small Business doesn't have the resources so it can maybe be just that you know try to Help the companies who want to use it to find it easier. It could be We have to be open minded and you know creative in a way of doing it But regulation and and making things like prohibiting things are forcing you to do things this way or that way It's important. It's there for a reason But we need to create the whole ecosystem around circularity. We won't do it on our own Great, that's really very instructive. Thank you. Um, I'm now going to pass over to to helger And the same three sets of questions to you, you know an example Of the work you're doing through the case study Uh, you're viewed on the critical raw materials act And then a broader question of how what what else can and should the u be doing particularly with respect to your business And and it's challenges and opportunities Thank you for the opportunity to speak here and for an interesting report I'm helger fsum. I heard So I represent hydro, which is europe's largest aluminum company And we're now also investing in battery materials So I work as a director of business development in the hydro batteries And I'm also a board member of by inald who produces synthetic graphite one of our investments And hydro is headquartered in in norway, but we have 40 of our 33 000 employees in europe And we have the commercial interests both of course in aluminum and also in in battery materials. So what we're doing in battery materials is Three main focus areas. We have anode materials producing synthetic graphite, which I will speak more about and was also mentioned as our case study We do Recycling of end of life batteries. We have europe's largest facility for crushing and sorting of Of battery EV batteries to recover the materials And lastly, we have invested in lithium difference who does direct lithium extraction, which is a new technology to to uh to avoid mining for for lithium and And get the lithium directly from underwater brines We also use the the heat from the water for district heating. So I think Our three growth pillars are also three examples of truly sustainable Ways of producing new battery materials And I think that that's an approach that needs to be taken because as it was mentioned, we cannot rely only on On recycling we need to find truly sustainable ways to produce also virgin materials for the green transition So today i'll be speaking mostly about graphite And also a bit about aluminum and you might know The graphite is makes up about half of a battery cell. It's in terms of weight It's a key component of all lithium ion batteries irrespective of whether it's LFP or an mc or or various cathode the chemistries That also means that it's a significant part of the co2 footprint of the of the battery and really a key component and There's no production at scale at the industrial scale. We need of graphite in europe today by 2030 will need A million tons annually or or more depending on which forecasts you look at Today europe needs to import all of this Most of it comes from china 90 percent of the graphite is produced in china today and not in a very clean way And you can you can produce graphite for for battery applications in two main routes the synthetic graphite which we do and natural graphite which involves Mining and then processing of that and now as hydro we are We're working to address the challenges both of local supply in europe and also of sustainable supply of these Materials, so we are planning to to build a large-scale facility for production of synthetic graphite in norway And we were last week. We were awarded the 90 million euros from the eu innovation fund to support those plans And when we talk about synthetic graphite to our Stakeholders in in brussels and elsewhere. We often are met with Two counter arguments one is that it's it's dirty I can say it's certainly not if you use modern technology like we have in by note you reduce the The energy intensity you increase the yield and you Because of the closed furnace technology you also reduce direct emissions So compare and when we couple that with using only renewable energy We get a reduction of more than 90 percent Of the co2 footprint compared to importing this from from china So it's both in terms of self-sufficient and in terms of reducing co2 footprint. This is a key approach The raw material we use is is coke. It's a byproduct from from fossil fuel production or oil refining But the key difference is that we we don't burn the The coke so it's not combusted. It's it's not converted to co2 in in the process. It is It's converted to a to a high quality battery material And it stays in the battery for for the duration of the life and it can of course be recycled At the end of life So it's an a good example of an industrial synergy where we take a byproduct from From the oil industry and we refine it to from material needed for for the future So the synthetic graphite will contribute to both slower co2 footprint of Of the battery of new cars. It will also contribute to To self-sufficiency of of europe if we develop these factories in in europe and And Going synthetic versus natural is a much faster route as you you don't have to develop any new mines And then to comment on The critical raw materials act first i'd say that we as sido we we welcome This act we want to praise the commission for Ensuring a full value chain approach all the way from mining through operations and then to recycling We're happy to see different targets for the different steps of the value chain extraction processing and recycling benchmarks The exact figures are less important than sort of the symbolic value of looking at the entire value chain I think it was mentioned earlier also that we need a case by case approach. I think also My introduction showing how we work in in hydro batteries with With different technologies based on the different materials I think it's it's important to get into the details and look on a case by case I think there are three main elements that i'd like to address on the critical raw material Act that we as hydro would like to to improve First it's we see now that the council has added aluminum to the list of strategic raw materials We hope that that is passed into final legislation aluminum is key for All green technologies including all the technologies listed in the net zero industry act With the energy crisis that we have in europe 50 percent of european Aluminum capacity has been curtailed This means that we are now importing much more materials from From outside and by that by that also importing A huge co2 footprint similar to to synthetic or graphite. We have a A much much higher footprint when we import this than when we Produce it in Produce it locally Hydro also last month produced the first true zero aluminum Using recycled aluminum and hydrogen as as fuel. So we were the first to produce true zero emission aluminum The second point is that we are disappointed that only natural graphite is is mentioned in the act We believe it should be just graphite so that we can can have both synthetic and natural graphite being treated equally and And we believe that both All sources of graphite will be needed both synthetic Not natural and whatever we can can do of Of recycling the recycling of graphite is currently a very immature technology. So we would like to see See synthetic graphite being recognized alongside natural and and lastly we would like to see a distinguish In in reporting of a pre-consumer and post-consumer scrap Because the the industrial waste you have in in pre-consumer scrap that will be handled by the industry in in any case It has a high value and is easy to recycle and Whereas the post-consumer scrap is much harder to get hold of Uh, and it's important that we we address those sources to to be able to get the recycling rates up And to avoid skewed incentives When calculating the the true The true footprint of material because the Pre-consumer Scrap carries a footprint because it's produced from virgin materials Whereas the post-consumer should not carry a footprint and then you you risk greenwashing if you mix this up you also risk importing Pre-consumed scrap without assigning it the right footprint So to conclude we're we're very happy to see the circularity Being important part of the critical raw materials act Uh, we hope to see uh increased recognition of the role of aluminum synthetic graphite and the end of life Recycling under the act Wonderful. Thank you. And I presume therefore the the conclusions as you said of the the report You support as well from that perspective in addition to those broader comments about the act. Yes. Yes So so that we'll take that as an endorsement, uh, michael Um, thank you very much. Um, I don't think we've got any other questions yet online I just want to check if anyone would like to make a comment or a question here Before we move on to our next speaker, but uh, please just introduce yourself for the benefit of everyone else Thank you. So, thank you. My name is young dad had that umicore. Umicore is in materials technology and recycling companies So we are in the hearts of what has been discussed here so far I would like to make a short comment on on one of the conclusions that michael made in his report. So the most I find the conclusion that I like most was The case by case approach and that was supported by uh, mrs. Matteo as well Uh, I think indeed that we have to to pay attention and and to avoid Generalizing and and good measures from one sector are not necessarily a good one in another sector I would like to illustrate it with the recycled content Discussion that we have had is here as well So in the battery regulation and that's one of the focus areas for for my for myself and our business um We are producing cathode active materials and we do the recycling of batteries So we can really make the closed loop and still we are not very happy with the With the recycled content targets in the battery regulation and why Some we see it already with customers today. They ask, okay in the future Will we need to have some targets and so can you already provide it today? And can you do more we say yes, but If there is no recycled material, how do we get more and so the two ways that we can offer we say, okay We can cannibalize on your second life projects Instead of sending them to second life. We will recycle them, but that's not not the right way Another is that we say, well, we also have a production units in in in china We produce cathode material in china There's much more recycling in china today than there is in in europe And so we can provide you with materials from china, but that's also not what we want We want to develop our european value chain So I think that we have now to look a very careful carefully how we can avoid that That recycling target, which we understand and and that has Broadly speaking interesting ideas, but how to avoid that it would be Or achieve the opposite than what we want. And so that means how to avoid cannibalizing on Second life and how to avoid that it would be a new dependency of materials namely secondary materials from out of Europe And so there's some concerns and and we have to see how that general principle can be translated and something that's practical working and supporting other policies as well Thank you Thank you. And is your Idea that that would have to come as part of a broader industrial strategy or does it need a more specific response? Yeah, I think indeed that we General principles I agree and we we have to have general principles But we have them to translate them into practical things and and measures that that really reflect all the values that we pursue And and a target is such Okay, we can work on it the same with the recycled targets or the recycling targets Which is 15 25 25 percent But what does it mean for individual elements for instance for the precious metals and the pgms or the platinum group metals We are achieving already 60 recycling, but that's not enough Yeah, whereas if you say well the global targets and if you do not specify To the individual elements, okay Then if you say well, we need 25 what will happen is that you will focus on the bulk materials That you will say, okay Well, we'll increase the recycling rate of copper of aluminum because that will increase the number But what a pgms rhodium that's expressed in kilograms. It's not expressed in tons And so how will it contribute to to more recycling? Okay, I think we have to look at that very granular. Yeah Great many. Thanks indeed We're now going to hopefully go online And to hear olivia lasard From karnige europe olivia. I can see you. Hopefully you can see us as well You've been very patient. You've listened to everything that's been said You've hopefully had a chance to read the report as well And we're very keen to hear your perspective on both the report and anything else that you've you've heard so The floor is yours over to you We can't hear our technicians are working on it bear with us olivia Perfect. I think it's working now Yes, it is. Thank you. Go ahead Thank you so much. Um, I have found the the conversation to be really insightful and enlightening and so I'd like to congratulate the organizers but also all the participants because it's one of the most insightful conversations that I've had the occasion to listen to on um on critical raw material circularity and Some of the dilemmas that we're facing and that's the key thing that I'd like to focus on because a lot of the interventions have indeed highlighted a number of different um Dilemmas that we're facing so Sierpa mentioned something that I have found quite insightful. She said we need to focus on the right questions So I'd like to share the question that I think is the most important Which sort of you know puts the larger discussion that we're having into a larger light Which is essentially The following how do we build an economic and political union that works towards? Economic performance that delivers on planetary boundaries, not just greenhouse gas reductions emission reductions That delivers on social contracts And that delivers on geopolitical protection And how do the do we do this in a way that helps to navigate the fact that we're about to hit 1.5 degrees Celsius? Um of global warming compared to pre-industrial levels and that we're very rapidly actually accelerating towards the two degree threshold Technically these objectives work at odds with each other in various ways And the role of the commission the parliament the member states and citizens As well as you know the larger sort of constituencies of research and academia Is to find ways to reconcile these objective objectives. And that's what we've been talking about in the last hour and a half CRMs stand very much at the heart of the conundrums since they're the backbone of the energy transition They're the backbone of the digital transition They're also the backbone in a lot of ways of military capabilities that europe needs to build as well in an open strategic autonomy Sort of you know trajectory considering the geopolitical environment, which is becoming less and less friendly and actually a lot more dangerous But CRMs in terms of extraction in terms of processing can be environmentally costly capital intensive in some places they can be socially taxing and Very much ecologically intensive as well Some actors are looking at CRMs Very much as the new frontier of economic expansion. It's a new business opportunity in some ways Whereas some other actors are looking at them as a danger to their social and environmental fabrics Especially again where they're exploited where they're persist in some places, etc, etc The reality is that we're having this conversation today Because europe is essentially 30 years late on the industrial strategy that was needed that is needed To deliver on mitigation strategies for the climate crisis But also for a larger geopolitical context that necessitates essentially an industrial strategy um to be competitive to be protected and to be um to have an innovative sort of you know value proposition in a geopolitical and geoeconomic environment, which is Quite risky at the moment We're late on mining There's a lack of capital investments even today and you know even a year into the conversation around the crma And accelerating towards climate transition targets There's still very much of a lack of capital investment towards new mining projects that may help essentially to build up The sort of stocks from which to recycle There is a lack of technicality and technical knowledge around You know mining and around technological sort of you know innovation at scale within Within europe even though some have been have been mentioned in this very Conversation and there is a lack of economies of scale particularly connecting. You know mining and processing as was also mentioned There is We're late essentially on circularity as was mentioned as well There is a lack of industrial ecosystems and and you know a business case, which is not built up for recycling and for circularity within europe, which does not necessarily provide you know like those sort of Incentives and the and the carrots as was also mentioned that we need So then that means that essentially what we have to do at the moment is to try and sort of look through These dilemmas and understand where europe can indeed be competitive where it can deliver on its own sort of economic You know sort of performance in a way that delivers on social contracts and planetary boundaries And that helps to sort of compete With systems rivals in the form of china russia, but also you know in some respects the u.s and other cd economies The crma is obviously one of the legislative and action oriented elements of the eu It's not the only one as rafael was mentioning It sets a number of targets, but the key question today And this is the part that you know, i've been partly missing in the conversation Is how to achieve those targets and how to refine a highly The sort of you know industrial ecosystem is in a highly dynamic and volatile business geopolitical and Biophysical environment. This is what we need to be talking about So sarah mentioned for example the fact that there needs to be delegated acts for mineral specificities I think that this is a great idea to look exactly at where the new specific vulnerabilities are And that needs to connect with the technological innovations that private business actors are looking at sort of developing But also at where you know, like those sort of dependencies are located There also needs to be and that was not really discussed today a number of different sort of coordinated task forces That connect industrial policy and research actors that also connect various industrial ecosystems mining Processing and circularity for the moment. We don't really have very strong coordinated and strategic conversations asking the right questions putting the right timelines and really looking into what are today the um Sort of assets that private business actors that policy Actors can sort of pull together in order to bring Europe where it needs to be Starting now looking at the 2030 target and really looking also at How is the geopolitical and geoeconomic environment? Changing how fast is it going? Where are the sort of you know, lame ducks of industrial policies potentially and where are the true winners and what kind of objectives do they deliver upon? for this We're lucky to have you know, some skeleton of sort of institutions or organizations Those sort of EAT raw materials association can for example serve as an incubator for a number of different coordinated and strategic conversations As well as ecosystems of actors looking at what are the benchmarks by when for what purpose and for what objectives and also What are the de-risking and investment strategies on the part of states and on the commission that are necessary? to help propel industrial innovation and again, you know define redefining the targets There is something that also was not fully mentioned Which is the fact that we need At the moment to have ways to monitor which critical minerals are used for what type of sectors and in particular we need to fast-track use of CRMs and recycled as well as you know circular economies For the energy transition Primarily because otherwise there is a risk essentially that the EU will embed its own sort of, you know Dependencies from a geopolitical perspective But also that it may miss the targets set for 2030 which would represent essentially a faltering on social contracts and constitutionally binding contracts which will have a number of security repercussions both regionally domestically, but also geopolitically There needs to be a set of investments Into responsible mining which is the backbone of the circularity aspect Not withstanding all of the really good points that have been made There have been a number of different studies that recognize and demonstrate essentially that mining is still going to be necessary for the next 10 to 15 years So then the question becomes what is the type of Responsible mining that Europe can invest into not just in Europe And this is the really important part that the CRMA is missing at the moment But also outside of Europe because at the moment the CRMA and a set of other legislative components are looking at energy security And European interests from a European perspective But the reality is that European interests will only be Met if we meet them along with the partners that are at the heart of the energy transition So that requires essentially Europe the European union to define a value proposition for geopolitical partners, particularly in the grivel south Which are at the heart of this energy transition to look at how do we build circularity Across different frontiers And how do we invest into the type of responsible mining that is going to meet a number of different industrial standards for partners But not just industrial standards that are going to meet interests from an ecological perspective And this is the part again that is not being mentioned today We are back like, you know, the sort of industrial strategy Is not just there to meet economic and geo economic purposes But also to meet climate and ecological targets. And the reality is that water Which is key for the industrial strategy is about to run amiss because of climate Sort of global warming but also because of other and you know anthropogenic activities that are sort of lessening the availability of water So at the same time as investing into an industrial strategy There is a need to invest into a regenerative strategy both at home Thankfully, we now have a nature restoration law But also abroad and this is going to create essentially a larger Set of objectives within which the industrial strategy can function so as to actually get The sort of industrial strategy over the hump of global warming and over the hump of natural resource scarcity But also to enshrine it into a much larger geopolitical proposition Which is going to connect the dots between mining circularity Trying to deliver on industrial sort of strategies But also mitigation and adaptation strategies And this is also the part where we will need a lot of attention Over the type of conversations that are organized between public sector actors and private sector actors because the reality is That private sector actors are going to need to take an active part into adaptation strategies and regenerative strategies That will help to create a sort of global economic environment in which economies of scale Trade can actually take place I'm probably already past my five minutes, so I'm going to end there and if there are any questions I'm happy to look what to answer them. Thank you Brilliant. Thank you. I think you've made a number of points. I'm not going to try and recap but A sense of urgency and a need of strategic coordination comes through all of that very clearly And indeed it links to other work that the CRCEL has done Under the notion of competitive sustainability How do you join these things together in a way where you're trying to achieve Through industrial strategy as well as other things A transition to full sustainability Without trade-offs which are going to essentially make one or other of those things unachievable or fail But with that, I think we're running up against the challenge of of our time I'd like to just offer our speakers Siapa online and anyone here 30 seconds to leave a last Thought on the topic of urgency if there was one thing you would like everybody From the report to think of and to take away now is your chance to do so And then we'll we'll wrap up. I hope very close to if not exactly at half past Siapa if you are online you've got 30 seconds if I don't hear you quickly We'll pass to somebody else I don't hear you quickly. So I'm going to pass to Raphael. Is there in 30 seconds anything that you particularly want to underline? Thank you very much. Hey, clearly a circular economy is a It's a big challenge. We need Sorry Thank you very much. So I say that the circular economy clearly for us is a very Important step is a challenge, but we have a lot of opportunity and we need to move to This this topic We need collaboration Interregions We need collaboration between for example, Wallonia and the regions are on Wallonia and all in europe This is very important. We need collaboration in terms of A legislation because legislation for transport of waste, for example, is a very complicated We need a Work on industrial symbols. So this is a very important aspect because we don't have a platform european platform for industrial symbols It's okay, but I take collaboration as the key fierce george So i'm really interesting discussion Took a lot of notes and yeah for me a takeaway is maybe like this need for an integrated strategy Kind of let's say an industrial strategy for circularity. I think we have many building blocks but maybe have to work on Now getting all sides right and also the investment and the carrots maybe at some point Great. So an integrated strategy Celine yes, give us the political signal, but make sure at the same time that you The the industrial ecosystem is there for us to meet this This signal or these targets that you give us. That's what we need an integrated approach Great integrated approach again on the right signals elder. We need a case case by case approach Leveraging what we can do in europe like synthetic graphite is a Here neighbor directly to my extraction so that we can get the critical materials from the sources that are available in europe with minimal impact Wonderful. So a case by case approach as well as an integrated strategic approach Final word any last reflections from you sarah Very difficult to do that in 30 seconds honestly Well, you're allowed at least a minute No, but I think I agree with what olivia says when it comes to the sense of urgency I think that we're really late to the party That doesn't mean of course that we should then Just just accept that and and sit on our sit on our backs I think that there's a lot that can be done when it comes to policy of course and we're doing it But we still need to be much more ambitious on the same Time I do see also from industry a lot of innovation and a lot of willingness to really Make sure that we that we create this industrial ecosystem on circularity As as is needed and of course indeed that also means we still have to to have a discussion on on carrots I think that will be one of the the big discussions Ahead as you all know there was supposed to be a sovereignty funds We got something called step that is I think quite insufficient If we really mean it that we want to reindustrialize europe So I think in that sense We will need more ambition coming from the policy side We need to support of course the creation of this of this industrial Framework and ecosystem and it's really also up to us And I think the parliament will have to play a huge role because we haven't convinced member states yet To make sure that there's also carrots involved Wonderful so with that, I wish you good luck with your your votes tomorrow and thereafter And a huge thank you obviously for hosting us here today. I'd like a few other. Thank yous obviously to all of the speakers Who have joined us here today in particular to our colleagues, obviously from the Wuppertal Institute, michael and co It's been a pleasure obviously working with you and I hope we'll continue to do more of the same Thank you to everyone who has joined both In the european parliament here, but also online Thank you in particular obviously from my point of view to all my colleagues Who have worked Timelessly on this over many weeks if not months to make sure that it worked Well, so many thanks to to all of my colleagues as well And with that, I think Thank you to everybody. Please go online or scan the qr code that you can see Here to get the full report It's worth reading cover to cover It isn't thousands of pages But it's long enough to give you much more detail than you've already heard substantive though We have been in our conversations And any feedback on it is very welcome both to the Wuppertal Institute or to crcel and the task force We're very keen to to remain in contact and I think One of the last comments was made about the need for for continuous partnership and dialogue Between the public and private sectors, which we are very keen to continue to facilitate so many. Thanks. I wish you a good Rest of day and hopefully see you all again soon. Thank you