 Welcome Dorothy. Hello, I couldn't get it, but the light is just bouncing off my glasses. Horrible way that's so annoying. Anyway, here I am. You're all set folks you're you're recording and you're open to the public and Darcy you're host now so have a good evening everyone. Thank you. Good evening. Seeing as we have a quorum and attendance I'm calling the November 5 2020 meeting of the town service and outreach committee to order at 35. Governor Baker is March 12 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law allows us to hold this virtual meeting of the town services and outreach committee. I will now call on each committee member by name to confirm that you can hear me and we can hear you. Alyssa. Yes, I can hear and see you. Darcy. Yes, Dorothy. Hello, I'm here. Evan. Yes, can see. Same. See in here. Okay. We also have the town manager. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay, so those assisting the meeting will be monitoring committee member connections. And if necessary, we'll pause the meeting until we'll are reconnected. We request that everyone be patient with the process. So, it looks like we don't have any attendees. People agree with that. No, we have no attendees. So, we do not have any public comment at the moment. Action items. We have potentially four town manager appointments, the design review board, the Munson Memorial Library trustees, the council on aging and the community safety work group. And I just thought maybe we should have a quick discussion of the community safety work group. Appointments to see whether it's my understanding that we have a memo before us today that we have six potential members for the, for the new safety work group. But that the town manager is also going to be interviewing one or more people tomorrow. And is hoping that we can get a recommendation in front of the council meeting. So, we have two, we have council meeting on two consecutive Mondays coming up. So the question is whether we should just put off the consideration of the members that we have in front of us today until a special meeting. Do we, if so, when, and do we want to combine all of the recommendations into one meeting? So, if you don't mind, I'll just open that up. Do you have any suggestions about that, Paul? No, I'm flexible. However, you want to do it. I do have multiple interviews or the interview team has multiple interviews tomorrow afternoon. And that should wrap up. But you're expecting to interview and decide tomorrow? Yes. So what do people think? I had suggested next Thursday as a possible meeting time. But there's something going on starting at six that some of us are involved in. We could probably meet as early as 430. Okay. What do you think? I'll start off. I have no problem looking at your hands. Okay. I haven't, I don't even see where it is yet. Okay. Okay. Start talking. So go ahead. Wait till the other people talk first. All right. Thank you. I appreciate that Dorothy. Thank you. Thank you. I would like to bring these recommendations to the town council, which is a posted possibility for us to do on Monday night. So the town council could act on these first six Monday night, assuming we come to agreement on those six tonight. Because we never know what's going to happen with a second interview process. We don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. We don't know how long the interview committee is going to decide. We don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. So I think we should really, things will work out great tomorrow, but they may not. And the idea that we would miss the window of doing anything until the 16th feels unfortunate to me. I think that Paul indicated in the memo. I appreciate his flexibility, but I think he indicated in the memo that he was comfortable moving forward with these six, even if we don't find additional candidates. He's not desperate to fill all the seats at this point. That's not the goal here. I think it's not the goal. It's not the goal. It's beyond the committee beyond the committee. So I would like to see us move forward with the discussion tonight to recommend the six to the town council. If the town council decides on Monday, that they're uncomfortable doing that for whatever reason. That's their decision, but we, it's not like we can meet tomorrow, afternoon or Monday, because we won't have time to post a meeting. To do the rest of the interviews. And that's even assuming they come to a conclusion on Friday, so that they don't have time to think about it over the weekend. So I'm more comfortable moving forward with the six and then saying, great, if we add some more people later, terrific. But the six could in fact, if that we act and the town council acts on Monday, they could start to get organized. Thank you, George. Sorry, I agree with the listen. We should try and go ahead and we should go ahead tonight with the six. I guess we can't. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with the town council meeting on Monday because of posting requirements. So that was a thought I had, but of course that's not going to work. So I say we go ahead tonight with the six. Okay. So, but I also need to hear from people about. When would be a good time for a special meeting? Because we still have to have the special meeting. So we have to have a special meeting. So I guess. I'm guessing the committee can't get started until. It's fully constituted. That's exactly not true. That's what I just said. They could get started. There's no reason to wait. There is no full constitution. There's six members that are, that he's ready to have go. Well, I don't think that's probably up to us. But, um, Evan. Dorothy had her hand up before me. She wants to speak. Oh, I'm sorry. Dorothy. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Thank you. Ditto. And I wouldn't mind meeting on four 30 November 12th, but I think we should go with what we've got. So Ditto to Alyssa and to George. And Evan. Yeah, I was just going to second, I think. Originally I thought it would be better maybe to do them as a group. Because I think when I first read the memo, I sort of read over. Um, and I certainly see no reason not to, um, as far as a second meeting, we could do an earlier meeting next week that would make for a long night for some of us. But I also know that, um, from my experience with the tech that it does even moving quickly, it takes a little bit of time to set up that first meeting as people haven't already blocked out. So I also feel that there's also a possibility. Um, that. Um, I don't know, even if it doesn't really matter all that much and that if we, um, hold off until our next regular meeting, um, it will probably be okay because likely those members would still have an opportunity to join the first meeting since I had doubt the first meeting will occur during Thanksgiving week, although who knows. So my preference is to not add additional meetings unless we feel like they are absolutely necessary, which at that point, I don't feel like it is. I don't feel like it's necessary. Um, and this is with the knowledge that the, the council wouldn't be able to act on them until December 7th. Um, Alyssa, you have something to add. I'm just a little confused about what, how that logistically plays out then if we don't have a second meeting. And so I just want to make sure I, I just want to make clear what my separation is, which is that I believe the six, assuming that we approve them and assuming that the town council approves them should be able to set up their first meeting and get started, irrespective of whether or not there end up being additional members. We may or may not need that meeting next week because the interview team may, may or may not decide tomorrow that they have additional people to give us, but I would want the town council to be able to act on Monday, so that this group could get, start getting organized and see if they are able to meet as early as sometime next week, well before Thanksgiving and well before the next time the town council could act. Paul, could I just ask you, um, do you, are you seeing it as the, it say there was a recommendation that the first six were appointed? Do you see them meeting in advance of the people that you choose tomorrow, perhaps? So I think, I think there's a high likelihood we won't have, I mean, I don't know, I can't, I would like to get this group started. They all have to get sworn in and get, you know, we want them to learn about the open meeting law. Some folks have not done all this yet. I would like to try to get a meeting scheduled prior to Thanksgiving and have alerted folks to that. Um, so if we can get these six done tonight and if we get something in advance and do, and then do the others on, uh, in advance of this on the 16th council meeting, however you can get a meeting in between there in advance of that. Um, yeah. So you're hoping to get them started before Thanksgiving, which would necessitate our having an extra meeting. So, uh, are there people who are, um, I'm assuming that we should just try to have a meeting next Thursday early. If we're available at 430 or something. Is there anyone who strongly disagrees with doing that? So maybe we should just go ahead and do that. Uh, George. Just the thought that, that I don't think the meeting would take very long. No. It would enable them to meet. Um, More quickly. So that if it's needed, I'd be willing to do it. And we only need three people. I mean, we don't all five of us. So understand the concern about extra meetings. And if someone can't make it, it's not the end of the world, but three of us should be able to get together and review these. And allow them to meet before Thanksgiving. Yeah, um, I would just like to say that my preference. Um, Would be to do the whole shebang next Thursday. Um, and part of the reason for that is that we got the memo yesterday when we asked to have it like much in advance of that. So I feel like there's, um, you know, this was a real, this is an important appointment. And that there were a lot of people interested in the formation of this committee that. Don't have any notice whatsoever that this is happening tonight and don't have any way of weighing in or. So I. I actually don't feel like we should be doing it tonight. Um, But if everybody else wants to go forward that. You know, I don't think we should be doing it tonight. Uh, Dorothy. I don't really see people coming to this meeting to say, don't appoint that person. I don't see that happen. Um, it's when people want need to be given notice, it's usually because there's an issue or an idea or an action that's being discussed. But, um, I wouldn't really want to listen to anybody who came to me and I wouldn't really understand what they're saying because that would be such a nasty level of, that I would hate to get to into a small town. So it doesn't bother me. That there wasn't a lot of notice that these names would go out. And it was quite a. I don't know the people on the committee, but it, I read through the whole memo today. And it seemed it was a pretty thorough affair. That. That I'm willing to just put my trust in it. I'm hearing that we agree that we're going to go forward with this, the recommendations for the six tonight. And that we're going to have a meeting next Thursday at four 30. That is the only purpose of the meeting is to look at the additional. Applicant. Yes. And what time would that be? Uh, I'm thinking forth. It's fine with me to do it at five. Five. Five. Should we just do it at five? Whatever sign with me. Yes. I normally babysit until five. That's perfect for me. Okay. So why don't we. Just start with the community safety work group then. Okay. You start us off. Thank you. First, I want to recognize the interview team, which was a spectacular interview team. They didn't elect to share with Dr. Barbara love was really the one who sort of helped. Organize the discussion. If you don't know Dr. Love, she was the chair of the Amherst regional public school committee. She was the chair of the human rights commission. And former chair and, um, always announced herself as a proud retiree, although she's incredibly busy. She, her working around her schedule has been a real challenge, but she had such a huge contribution. Uh, Keisha Dennis from the residence advisory committee, Matthew charity chair of the human rights commission. Alexandra monison Olson, who was the design of defund four one three. Sid Ferrara of the human rights commission and the ABC house committee. And it was a really terrific committee, not all, several of them made all the interviews, but some, some of them missed some, but they were able, they, as we had some really terrific note takers who shared information with each other. So that it was a very strong interview team. The six people I'm putting forward tonight are Tashina Bowman, Deborah Ferrara, Pat, Breanna Owen, Alicia Walker and Paul Wiley. I'm going to talk a little bit more about what we're going to talk about today. I think the group brings a very strong combination of people who have been in town for a while, a business owner, people who've been involved with education, uh, as principal of Crocker farm school, people who've gone through our Amherst school system, people who have children in our Amherst school system. Um, background in legal, um, studies. It's a very well rounded. Um, very well rounded work experiences. Um, in the community. I'm here to answer any questions. I'm really excited by this group. I think it's really a phenomenal group of people. Um, That is, for this, for this important project. Do we have questions or comments for the town manager? Evan. No questions. That's two years consistently asking for more and more and more in these appointment memos and information. And I thought that the appointment memo was very informative. I really appreciated the profiles you offered for each person. I appreciated that each profile was very clearly tied to I think what they bring to this particular committee and what they offer. So, I just because I have often been difficult with those memos I wanted to offer my thanks and appreciation for this memo which I found to be very thorough and very informative and very useful in understanding these people who you're recommending for appointment. Thank you. Alyssa. Thank you. Thank you so much. I knew that was going to happen. Sorry. Two devices. Okay, so thank you to Evan. That was terrific. Exactly. We keep asking for more and we're getting to really where we really understand what the logic is behind things. So thank you so much. How much we appreciate that people are taking the time to do this, knowing that it's a very unique thing that we're asking people to do. We're asking people to get ready and move really quickly on things with the first deadline coming up in January, and this is November. And there's a global pandemic and people's lives are in chaos and they're willing to contribute to this process. So I think the interview team, the staff involved including the interview team that served on the interview team and all the applicants because like we are so fortunate that so many people stepped up. Thank you. I do. I do have a question about the racial equity task force and whether, were they originally part of the interview team and what, what happened there. They were invited to participate in the interview team but chose not to. I mean, they never were part of the interview team. Right, but interestingly, Pat on a buck who self described as being a member of the racial equity task force. Oh, cool. Okay, other. Alyssa is that a different hand. We got to Alyssa's and there goes your hand. Okay, any other questions or questions. All right, so I guess we're ready for emotion. I move to recommend that the town council approve the following recommendations by the time manager of persons to serve on the community safety working group for terms that lasts the length of the working groups efforts. Anisha Bowman, Deborah Ferrera, Pat on a buck who Brianna Owen, Alicia Walker, and Paul Wiley. Do I have a second. Second, second, second, second, second, third, fourth and 14 seconds. This once is enough. Okay. Roll call vote and I am not going to start with Alyssa. I'll start with. Yes, Dorothy. I think that was a yes Dorothy. Evan. Yes. George. Yes. Alyssa. Yes. Okay. All right. So moving on to the council on aging. Paul, do you want to talk about that? So we have two seats on the council on aging one, a recent resignation. And that's that will be for a term that ends on June 30th in that, that person would appoint he is Chad Fuller. And the other is Mila Montemayor. And that would be for a three year term. So these again, building on our community, this Mr. Fuller lives in and is a high utility uses the senior center a lot or used to. And Ms. Montemayor also has a frequent user and said she's she has signed up for absolutely every activity that the senior center has offered. She also brings a wide range of language diversity. She speaks English, Filipino, three other Philippine languages, Spanish, German and Italian. And self describes as an Asian American, which is really something that the senior director has been trying to diversify the council membership on the council as well. So I think these are two strong additions to the council and aging. Excellent comments. Okay. I moved to recommend to the town council the approval of the following time manager recommendations for appointment to the council on aging for three year term expiring June 30, 2023 Mila Montemayor, and for a one year term expiring June 30, 2021. Chad Fuller. Do I have a second. Second. Okay. Dorothy. I was trying to, I cannot raise my hand in time to second emotion, but I thought that I couldn't second emotion without raising my hand so that's what all that raising the hands was was I was trying to be available to second things. Okay. I'm going to go off my mic because I, I don't know if I need to but often in the past, it's been better if people turned off their mic, when they weren't talking. But I don't mind if you, if you're not muted, as long as you like, I mean I don't mind also if you just say, I second that that's okay. Otherwise, let's not interrupt. So, that was Dorothy. Evan, you're voting. I thought I had gone like this and I thought you thought that was a hand. Yes. George. Yes. Alyssa. Yes. Darcy yes. Okay. Next, we have the design review board one recommendation. I think that's going to be a person who's going to represent the historical commission. Correct. Correct. So the historical commission did vote. We're getting a little more formal in all these appointments. I have asked the various bodies to actually vote on who they want to be the representative. So they just voted this and so it's Ms. My guard is already on the design review board. This will continue her term on there. Okay. Council approve the. Following person recommended by the town manager to serve on the design review board for a one year term expiring June 30 2021 Janet Markworth. Second. Okay, roll call. I can't keep track of this. Evan. Yes. George. Yes. Alyssa. Yes. Dorothy. Yes. Darcy yes. Okay. Next is Munson Memorial Library trustees. Yes, thank you. So the Munson Memorial building trustees are charged with overseeing the operations of the Munson Memorial building and the overseeing the grounds and it's a it's committee that meets probably four times a year. Maybe it doesn't meet that frequently. It's a small committee only three people. They, the charge require asks that they be someone people who live in South Amherst and the people who usually generally put their name forward are people who walk by or part you go to the months and building quite frequently. So these two people Susan Crutch and Alexander Niefer are interesting because Susan Crutch has was had grown up in Amherst she went to kindergarten at the month of Memorial building which I did not know it even had had a kindergarten in it and nor did many people. So she has a long time resident of South Amherst and hers and has a long lineage in South Amherst and then Alexander Niefer is someone who's relatively new to down. So it is a fundraiser by trade. People who generally step forward to serve on this building are people who just have a love of the building and want to help to be caretakers and overseers of that building. So, those are the two appointments for this bill for this committee. Okay, comments or questions. I have a question. Are these are the trustees. The advocates to do work on the building. As far as like, we know, like the HVAC system is, you know, been something that's been on the back burner for a while. What has happened in the past is either it has been Rob more but now Jeremiah will plan will meet once we come up with what we need to do to the building they'll meet with it with the trustees and say here's our work plan. Are there anything else. Is there anything else you think that we should be under considering. Okay. All right, so any other questions or comments or anything. I've moved to recommend that the town council approve the following recommendations to the town manager of persons to serve on the month of Memorial Library trustees for a three year term expiring June 30th 2023 Susan crutch. And for a one year term expiring June 30th 2021 Alexander neffer. Do I have a second Dorothy would you like to second that. I second that. Okay. George. Yes. Alyssa. Yes. Darcy. Yes, Dorothy. Yes. Evan. Yes. Okay. All right, so that is that with the appointments. And we will forward them to the town council, which will presumably take them up. And then we'll move on to the next meeting. So, so. We have on our agenda next. Town manager report update and counselor questions. Which does not require the town manager to make a report, but it is about his reports. And whether or not we have anything we want to ask him about. So, but we may not have any questions at all. I don't know. But I think that it's a time when in the future, I mean, it's, if we think about it between meetings, there are things that come up sometimes. And maybe this would be a time when you could ask the town manager. Dorothy. You're muted. I have a couple of questions. So I'm on the week of. The report for the 19th of October. And it says town staff are working to come together with some childcare options for town staff. And so I wanted an update on that. And let's see. One replace. Hmm. There was something that doesn't make sense. Oh, it's on a different page. Okay. Okay. Then so then a question on the I net and the replacing the comcast. And those are the two questions on that one. So. I'm trying to keep your shower. I wanted to just. Those are the things. Okay. So the childcare options for town employees at this moment in time. We have repurposed our LSSE staff to provide. And we've got a lot of work to do. We've got a lot of work to do. We've got a lot of options in the middle school. And this is for, and there are stations set up. So if the students are working or in school remotely, they can work there as well. And this allows. Our employees to be able to attend work. And be able to address one of the childcare issues there. We're looking at expanding that and offering that to the general public. So we're looking at that. And we're looking at the, we're looking at the director of leisure services. Soon to be called recreation department. This morning. So it's worked out pretty well. We sort of know. They can handle about, about 20 children at this point. And we're looking at other options as well. So that's, that's going forward. The second item was the. The shower. And we're looking at, we're looking at, we're looking at the, we're looking at the, we're looking at the, we're looking at the, you know, Craig's doors opened at the Unitarian universalist church on Sunday. And that has gone pretty successfully. I was at the community breakfast on Wednesday. And it's really, they've done a really wonderful job and give them a ton of credit for getting that space and the university motor lodge. I ran into counselor Ryan, who was getting ready to volunteer his services for the breakfast that gets, you know, for the first time in a while. So we're looking at, we're looking at, we're looking at, we're looking at the universal space. It's very sunny. And just, and they've done a lot of really good things at the UU church. So showers right now we are, we've been working on shower options. Portable showers. We have ordered portable showers. They're very hard to come by, but we've decided that we need to have them anyway. We are also looking at. We have two different types of showers in it, which would be a better solution because portable showers need to be winterizing. That's a very different animal. So we're going, walking down both paths. And so as we're working with a landlord who has a facility that we think could be positive for this. The board of health has been. Understanding. and want to delay the opening of the shelter. There are showers available at the Survival Center, and I think they still have showers available at the First Baptist Church. So it's an important thing for a shelter to have access to showers, and showers were used very regularly at the First Baptist Church. And so if we can get the actual facility, which is that will be the best option for us. And but we've decided to go down both paths and thinking that having a set of portable showers might come useful sometimes somewhere anyway. And we have the CARES funds that can help pay for that. And the third thing, Dorothy. It's this area about, I don't always understand information technology. The INET. Yes. Yes. So ITET is moving forward on a contract to construct a replacement INET loop to replace the current Comcast loop with the town must abandon, so we don't need the ED there, in compliance with the contract we have with Comcast, and then delays in obtaining the fiber. Yes. This is something I've been following this item a little bit, but I have to say I don't really. Okay. So I can give you a very brief explanation. I know you have a lot on your agenda. So when Comcast came in and they built the cable company, part of the deal was they were going to put fiber in between all of the municipal buildings so that our internet can work on things and we could communicate with each other, our telephone lines with the dispatch center could connect with the DPW and with the fire and with the town hall. So that wire that's on the telephone poles is owned by Comcast. And when we are negotiating our contract, they said, we don't want you on there. We don't want to maintain those lines anymore. So that was part of the deal. They gave us money to move off of that because it was the deal when they took on, they gave us the money to put that to do that. We were in process with replacing that with our own wires when the pandemic hit and the place in North Carolina that creates the fiber shut down and we got behind the eight ball. So what we were had, we were supposed to be off on October 15th. So we've negotiated an arrangement with Comcast to continue to stay on for three months. Well, the fiber arrives and gets installed. They can work through the winter. And so we will have brand new fiber up between our buildings. Plus we're extending it into as many locations as we can. So we will be extending it into the Mill River area so that the swimming pool we can have, we will be making all the locks electronics so that it can be controlled and monitored. You'll be going to pumping stations right now, pumping stations for our water department are not connected so they have to go down and monitor them. So or we have a telephone line that goes there and we pay a monthly fee for the telephone line. So our goal is to create our own internal INET of high capacity fiber that will connect all the town buildings and the school. The schools are part of this as well. So one very brief one, if we get to the discussion of having municipal broadband, Amherst, this would work with it. It wouldn't be fighting against it. It could be part of the system. So it could. We don't talk about that now because the way we gain access to the poles is that there's a certain number of feet on the poles reserved for municipal use. So we're allowed to put our fiber up for that in that area. If we were to go into a different, if we were going to become a competitor of Comcast, then we would have to purchase space on the poles. So we're not there yet. I'm not sure if the town is interested in going down that route. It doesn't preclude us from doing that. This really serves the need that we have right now. Thank you, Graham. Thank you, Paul. Any other questions? I just want to mention one thing, Darcy. We have put all the town manager reports on the town manager page trying to create a little bit. I know some people say, oh, it's got a lot of information. So we're trying to make it more accessible to people and we'll probably be doing something to alert people that it's available. So people can follow it. So we've put all the previous ones under the council on the town manager page and people can subscribe so they know when a new one gets posted, they can receive it. Excellent. That's great. I've been saying all along that this is like an incredible service that you're providing by putting out those reports. So, okay, well, let's move on. We have just one item under our presentation and discussion, which is the surveillance technology bylaw that both sponsors are here. Mandy Johanicki and Pat DeAngelis at our last meeting, TSO unanimously recommended the adoption of the face recognition bylaw, which was originally part of the sponsor's proposal on surveillance technology. In August and September, the sponsors presented on both parts of their proposal to this committee and town departments provided feedback. The sponsors responded to councilor questions in a memo, which is in the packet, and with their creation of a new amended bylaw responding to the feedback. So I don't know who is starting today, but take it away. Yeah, I can stop. Start. We don't have a planned presentation. We just thought we'd summarize some of the changes that happened between the last time you saw this and this time. Obviously, it's been face recognition has been removed from this, and you guys dealt with that at the last meeting, I believe. You'll notice a lot of movement of where definitions of things are and what reports need to include and all of that. The inclusion of the reports themselves, what's in there didn't change much. Some of it got moved from one report to another to try and better sync what the report's purpose is with what's in the report because there were a number of different reports referenced. We added the definition of town of Amherst to clearly exclude the library and schools from it, so it's anything just under the purview of the town manager. I think this one now better clarifies that once a use of a surveillance is approved, replacing that technology for the same use does not require a new approval. The approvals are required for new uses or new technology. New uses means if we already have a technology, but we want to use it for surveillance in a different manner, it would have to come back to the council or just buying the technology to begin with. We took out that it applies that permissions required prior to applying for grants because that was a concern of town staff that it might, and I think of some TSO members that it might prohibit us from applying for grants because of timelines, so the requirement to receive approval for use is for the acquiring or borrowing of, not for the seeking of funds to acquire, so the grants could be applied for, but they can't then be used to actually acquire if they're received until approval for the technology is received. We kept the yearly surveillance report in there, and so we made it just one instead of, and about everything. I think last time we had it as annual for police department and whenever asked for other things and people seemed to think that that was a little bit cumbersome, so we went back to just yearly for everything, and the biggest change I think is the addition of a community advisory committee on surveillance that will issue its own yearly report to mainly assess equity impact and policy change recommendations. And while it's a separate committee now, given everything that's happening in terms of committee creation and potential police department oversight of other police department items, Pat and I foresee that in the future it might be able to be moved to a different committee or combined with another committee that might be monitoring a police oversight committee or something, I know that's been one that's been talked about, but in the interim having this committee do it, but similar to on the wage theft where the sponsors utilized an existing committee to do some of the monitoring, we hope in the future that this monitoring can be done and combined with other committees that might show up and be created to have similar purposes. Thank you. Do you have something, anything to add, Pat? Not right now. Okay, questions from counselors. Evan, don't you have a list of 10 questions? I think that you already asked them. You asked them the last time. There are hands up, Darcy. Oh, sorry, Darcy. I don't need to have my hand up. I'm sorry. I have to turn off that thing because it's in the middle of my screen and I can't see it. It blocks me, so I'm now lowering my hand. Okay, Alyssa. Thank you. I just wanted to thank the sponsors for being so responsive to our questions and especially as Mandy Jo indicated, I was concerned about the timing on the grants so to be able to work that into a town council meeting when those grant opportunities, as we've seen from some emails, sometimes say, oh, you have two weeks to apply. I mean, that's crazy. And so having it cleared up how that could still work and show town council approval, but not stop people from applying, I think that's excellent. So thanks for all that. Thank you. Alyssa, George. I mean, my question was, give me an example of something that the town uses or is planning to use or has thought to use that falls under this description. And the sponsors came back and said, there apparently isn't any. Now, maybe they can, maybe Paul, Paul's still here, but I'm really struggle with a bylaw that is designed for things that the town doesn't do, has no intention of doing. It just, and you know, when you look at all the things that are required here, now we have a committee we're going to create. Committee has to produce a report. Time manager has to provide policy and reports. There's an annual surveillance report. I'm struggling personally with why this is needed. So if someone, other than simply saying, big brother is here and we need to act, I really struggle to see why all of this apparatus and all of this, you know, all this reporting and committee formation, on and on and on. And it has 16 exceptions. Right. Right. And technology is going to change. So I don't have a staff. I mean, I've read this two or three times, but a lot of it is way over my head. I'm assuming that a lot of it comes from other bylaws or other, right? You know, laws that have been passed in other communities. I hope that the sponsors did not create this from scratch. But it seems, well, it just seems like overkill to the max. So somebody helped me. I mean, first of all, give me an example of something the town currently is using that falls under this description. And secondly, if there isn't such a thing, and I don't think there is, but I'm well, I'm perfectly willing to be enlightened. Give me an example of something the town might possibly someday consider. I mean, it's a small college town. It just struggled to understand what it is that this very elaborate and complex bylaw is seeking to address. Other than fears of surveillance in the larger world we live in, which are real, I understand, but seem, well, so that's my, it's not specific. I mean, I do have one very specific question on six three, six E three, but that comes later. This is just a larger problem I have personally. I've expressed it before, I expressed it one more time creating bylaws in anticipation of problems. If I may, Darcy. So at the September 3rd 2020 TSO meeting, Sean Mangano identified a number of items that would fall under this dashboard cameras that are in use by our police department, RFIDs. Those are mainly used in the library and on probably employee ID cards for tagging in and out of buildings. The schools have cameras on buses and vans. The region has cameras. We have cameras outside of Town Hall that monitor I think the common or the parking lots there. And so those are just some of which with the definition of town of Amherst would be excluded from this bylaw. The buses, cameras on buses, the library RFID system. We've now excluded, but the dashboard cameras at the police department are one that would be included on this and that we know exist. And so why it is being proposed by Pat and I is because for your very concern, no one knows exactly what's out there that is surveilling people in town. And so we want a list of that. And Pat and I are proposing it so that people, transparency can know, but the other important one is once that video is captured, no one knows. We don't have a policy for how it's used or how long it's kept or who can access it. And so the point of this bylaw is to create those policies, to create the transparency for what is being used and to then be able to put out there for the public and for the council and for the town who can access them, how long they're kept and all of that. An example that you said asked for in the future, we got an email just today as to town council asking for body cameras on police officers. And so we don't have them yet, but if the police department decides to investigate that and propose that, this bylaw would require those policies to be in effect and to the council to approve the use of them before they're acquired. I hope that answers that question. So it's body cameras and dashboard cameras used by the police. Those are the two areas of concern that this bylaw has been constructed and will address. And then some future unforeseen threats that are yet to be described. I mean, to me, again, it sounds like something that could be dealt with through, you know, maybe an oversight committee if that gets created, but just it basically involves the police department and what their policies are with body cameras and dashboard cameras. But this bylaw is much more than that. It covers a huge ground. And as I've said, there are a whole host of exceptions that, you know, are we going to change them every few years as the technology changes it's extremely elaborate and detailed. And yet it has lots of exceptions. And the only thing that we can point to is, you know, police department using dashboard cams and body cameras, which in many communities, they're being, you know, encouraged to use to help make policing more, you know, transparent to the public. So these are my conflicting values in a way. But anyway, this could be addressed through some kind of police department policy overseen by the town manager. And if there's a problem with it, people could raise their concern. I just struggle to see why this is needed in all of its complexity and all of its exceptions. And all of its various reports, committees, formation, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I just, I personally just have a problem with it. Can I say something? Yes, Pat. Thank you, Mandy, Joe. I think that you did a good job of answering, but George, you said, you know, we're a small town police department, blah, blah, blah. No judgment with the blah, blah, blah. But in truth, we don't know who is going to lead the department when Scott leaves. We don't know what government mandates are going to come down that we as a town will support or and I think that the penchant for this government to surveil, et cetera, is very real. And so what we're saying is we want a system in place, a process in place to evaluate any suggested surveillance technology that comes forward. And that may seem like, oh, out in the future. But it affects us right now. We need to know when a proposal is made to do a DNA capture. What are the impacts of that on residents? And we need to have a sense of whether or not that's something that we can support. So I feel like a process. Can I just ask a clarified question? I mean, again, this is, I go to my staff, but they don't respond. You know, what's a DNA capture? It is literally a police tool for, you know, it is a medical tool. What is it? Forensics tool. Forensics tool. Also, and it could be something that we decide to buy. It could be part of a government grant. Hey, you can get this lovely capture. And what the capture does, one of the things is that DNA is very it can move literally. I can touch you on the shoulder and therefore some of my DNA will be on you. And what they've been finding is people who are innocent of crimes, okay, are often picked up by DNA. And one of the things that's true is there was a case, and I forget what state it was in. I apologize. Where a black man was picked up for a home invasion, okay, and his DNA was found at the home invasion scene. Okay, as it got investigated, all right, it was discovered that he had an iron-clad alibi. And so they were trying to figure out how did his DNA come to be at the crime scene? And as they unraveled things, he had been treated by the paramedic team that had been called to the crime scene. And his DNA had been deposited on the paramedics and they deposited it at the crime scene. So I'm not saying that we're going to run out and buy that or, but if we were, that's what we need to understand. And it's also true that DNA forensically has again been biased around people of color in terms of it is less accurate, et cetera, given that we generally choose Caucasians to establish a baseline. So for me, it is, I want to know that I have, I can understand where things are being stored. I can understand if a resident comes forward to us and says, I want to know what happened here. I, this is my experience, but I want some, I want to see what was recorded, what was observed. I think we have a responsibility to have a way to do that. So I understand your personal objection. And perhaps mine is a personal support in the sense of we need to hold ourselves accountable and responsible for what we purchase and what we use. And right now, things are not investigated. It sounds like a good idea, so we get it or we don't get it. So I don't know, I'm rambling a little bit, but Thank you, Pat. Alyssa, you have something to add? Yes, please. I don't think we're going to come to agreement, you and I on this, George, but I do hear your part about, this has many complex pieces that specifically identify certain other things that's trying to guess about future things. I get that. At the same time, I want to push back a little on a couple of the things that I've also heard, which is that we could just have a policy and the town manager could just enforce that policy and it could be a police policy. And I'm just going to call bullshit right there because there is no such thing as that, that has any input from the public. Something like that happens. There is no current now, future there may be, but right now, there is no police policy that has community input, that has elected official input. There is zero policy established that way. And so it isn't just a matter of we're not the executive, it's also a matter of there's zero community input on those things now. And that may change, right? As we go through the community safety working group and they come up with some things. So the other thing to think about is that this is not outlining that all these things are necessarily bad. They're just saying we have to think them through in terms of their impact and good people make decisions that make sense to them without having thought about some of those ramifications. It doesn't just have to be like a bizarro one-off CSI type crime like TV show, like that's which that sounds like the plot of, right? But it's that we traditionally in this country think things through from a white person's standpoint and we do not necessarily think about well, might this impact women differently? Might it impact people of color differently? Might it impact younger people or older people differently because of where we've deployed a certain technology? Are we only doing this new apartment complexes? And what is that message that we're sending by doing this new apartment complexes? So it's not that we would definitely say no to all these things. I don't think that's why we're trying to put the bylaw into place is to be able to say nope, nope, nope, nope. It's on this list. Forget about it. It's that okay, you say you want it. Tell us what it is and tell us how it how it's been thought through so far. We I want to also reflect for just a moment back to our sanctuary community designation. There was talk back then as that was being developed as well, we have an excellent police department. They're not going to help ice round people up. That's not their attitude. That's not their informal policy. But it was still useful to pass the bylaw to have that not only as our it's more than virtue signaling. It's not only that virtue signaling, but it's also saying these are our values and this is what we have to talk about if something like this comes up. So I'm looking at it as a this forces us to talk about it. Not that this forces anybody to say no. And because of things like the timing on the grants, it doesn't preclude anybody from trying to get technology that they think makes a lot of sense. Thank you, Alyssa. Yeah, I would also agree that I am grateful to the sponsors for accommodating all of this committee's request to make amendments to the bylaw. And I would basically agree with everything that Alyssa just said. I'd be interested to hear from Dorothy and Evan since we're kind of going toward a potential vote. Just interested to hear where you are. I guess I'm halfway. I understand what George was saying. I really think I'm not quite sure how this gets dealt with. It sounds that you really do need some trained paid staff. It's certainly not something that I think we as town council members will be doing. Is this something that a committee of citizens does? I don't think so. I'm not against having some rules or regulations or guidelines. But this sounds awfully complex. So I'm the part where I agree with George is so many layers of work, so many reports, so many meetings. I'm seeing a problem with that. But I also understand some of the motivation behind the sponsors of this bill. So I guess if there are a way to accomplish some of the goals in a much simpler form, I would feel a lot more positive about it. Do either of the sponsors want to respond to that? Yeah, so I guess this is complicated. And so the first discussion we had, I did my best to read through this and understand it and prepare questions, which was difficult. And what I found really helpful at that time and really illuminating actually was to hear from the police chief, to hear from, I think Sean Magano was there, to hear from IT, because they're the ones who actually have to implement this. And they express at the time a lot of confusion and a lot of concerns. And I was able to understand this by-law better as I heard from the people who have to implement this. And so I'm finding myself in a similar situation, I think to Dorothy. I understand the intent. I worry that reading it just feels like more reports that have to be written and have to be read or hopefully read. I feel like we're constantly talking about reports. Mandy and Pat, who both served with me on GOL probably knew that I would wince at the suggestion of creating a new committee, which I assume is also, there was some argument of, well, maybe this could be merged with the community safety because at this point, it seems like all we do is create committees and then talk about how it's hard to recruit people for all these committees and the amount of staff time that is devoted to interviews, to calling people, to posting. I'm really hesitant about making more committees. And so I think where I'm aligning with Dorothy is the intent is there, but I'm struggling to see the cost-benefit analysis between the benefit and sort of is this the best way to achieve it because on the surface, it looks like kind of a lot of new bureaucracy added on to what's already sort of complicated. So I guess where I stand right now is I'm not ready to vote on this tonight and I think the reason I'm not ready to vote on this tonight is because we haven't heard from staff again. The first time we heard from staff on this was they expressed a lot of confusion and concerns. And so now we have an updated version which I read the best I could with my brain that is not working at full capacity this week. I also don't know if we had a red-lined version of this. I wasn't able to get my version to open the word version to open in my packet. So I've been reading the PDF version that's posted with the online meeting posting, which doesn't show what the changes are. And so I'm admitting that I did not come here as prepared as I would have liked to be to do this, but I would be interested to hear whether or not the concerns that were expressed by staff, they feel like the changes have been addressed. And so at this point, I don't feel necessarily like I have what I need to actually make a recommendation to the council. Is that a new hand, George? Yeah, I was gonna ask the sponsors to just give us some idea of the addition, the one addition that Mandy pointed out that stands out as the creation of the committee advisory committee. And I just wondered if you could sort of say a little bit about why you decided to do that and what's the what's the reasoning behind it. So as George, I guess wondered, much of this and the prior one was based on some ACLU model by-laws. And the prior one was mostly based on Cambridge who had based it on an ACLU model by-law. We went to many different model by-laws. Each ACLU, like Northern California had their own model and they were all slightly different based on probably how many years it had been since one came out. So many of the definitions were just updated a little bit. But the reason for the committee actually part of it is because of concern that we heard at the last meeting of, well, the yearly report had to report on disparate impacts. And so did the use policy of that it wouldn't have disparate impacts. And the TSO committee members, some expressed concern that staff would just say, well, there aren't any. And so part of the reason for the committee, which we found in one of the model by-laws, we didn't make that one the committee of ourselves. It was in a model by-law was that then that committee could also address the disparate impacts if there are any that might be a little more seen as a little more neutral potentially than the staff who is using the technology reporting on whether it is disparately impacting residents. So I think that Pat can add to it, but I think that was one of the main reasons we liked the creation of a resident committee even though we hesitate to create yet more committees. Yeah, I would, if I may Darcy, I would just add that when Mandy Joe was presenting this, she talked about combining it with a resident oversight committee for the police department. And I think that's a primary goal of some of us on the council and certainly many residents in the community who are really saying we need resident oversight. So I find this committee an important one. And I also feel like if we have so little currently of surveillance technology, the amount of reporting that will need to be done is limited. And we did have town staff in initial meetings about these bylaws. And the other thing is that last time, I believe it was Evan that you brought up the staff input and Paul was asked to either gather that and bring it to this meeting, I thought, or we need to look at if we're not going to get it recommended tonight that we at the next TSO meeting that we actually invite the staff that you want to interview. And I think that's that's a request that we need to make of Paul and that should be followed through on just like we should have gotten information tonight from the lovely Paul. Maybe you could could is there anything that you could address tonight with regard to feedback on the bylaw? Still there? Oh, maybe he's not. Okay, well I guess we're not going to get feedback right now. Darcy. Yes, it doesn't relate to that while we're trying to get him. I wanted to respond to Evan's thoughts on whether it's a red line version. The word version that was sent to the packet is not a red line version. It's a clean version. The I'm not sure I can produce a red line version from the one you saw September 3rd to tonight's version. I can produce an initial red line version that then got cleaned up and a couple of more things changed. The reason it's not here is because with the split and then with moving of the report what's included in each of these reports from the definition section into each of the sections it got really messy to follow. So, you know, I if you want to see some of those back versions I have copies of them that I could send to the committee. It's just it's not going to be as easy to look at as you would hope it is. Dorothy. So, I have a better understanding of this after that last comment of Pat's that you had hoped to have this combined with the resident oversight committee of the police department. And I think that is where it belongs. So, I wish Paul were present at this moment but I am for holding off on acting on this at this moment. Until that committee is together and functioning. And then I think that this subcommittee could present it to them and see if that fits in. I mean, I think we're kind of jumping the gun and kind of like doing something that maybe they might want to do or may want might want us they of course they still would have to be passed by the town council. But our passing it before the committee is even met that might not be the best way to start. I'm just putting that out there for discussion. That's all. Yeah, we don't have a resident oversight committee nor has one been proposed. We have a community safety committee that is going to be looking about at whether or not there are things that the police currently do that can be moved elsewhere. We don't have a resident oversight committee is very different. And we have not as a council at all moved forward on that. Even with the evolution of the community safety committee, it's not clear that it would be an oversight committee. So that's something that has to be decided. And so I'll just say that. Oh, I understand that. But the reason we didn't do it didn't consider it and didn't go forward was because we decided that we shouldn't do it. That there should be a citizen's committee that should do that. It's one of the many things that's on the table for that committee to suggest. It's called a public safety just to give it a name. It doesn't say this is the only thing you can do. It's the committee that was to address these problems. And I just think it would be, you know, taking away some of their possible things. That's all where that goes from there. None of us know. None of us know. We're not in charge of it. So I'd like to see where they want to take it. That won't happen until June of 2021. What the charge is for that committee. But Mandy, Joe, did you want to say something else? Yeah, I just wanted to I obviously haven't talked to my co-sponsor about this. But if this committee is concerned with the creation of a new committee, as it was with the responsible employee with the wage and tip theft bylaw, Pat and I, if we talk and maybe we could and maybe we could reach out to the Human Rights Commission, maybe we could consider assigning it to, you know, assigning these duties to the Human Rights Commission as an interim if this committee is really concerned with the creation of another committee. I'm throwing that out there. I don't know whether that's wise or not. And Pat and I obviously have not discussed that, but I know that was a solution. The sponsors in this committee found to the wage and tip theft bylaw. And I just have a quick question for the sponsors and that is, did you have a chance to talk to any of the staff between the time, between the last meeting when they were present and your amended, making, writing your amended version? We have not talked to them, but we also have never received from Paul the list of staff concerns that was supposed to come to us after the last September meeting. Okay, Alyssa. So I want to throw a couple of points out there. One is that, although I am definitely all about enforcing things when we possibly can, I think the reality is if we passed this bylaw as a town council and within three months we didn't do something, there's no enforcement mechanism here to make us do it. And there's no punishment for anyone for not having done it. So it would not be, it's not a great situation to go into something knowing that you might not meet a deadline, but the reality is it doesn't matter if we don't meet the deadline as far as I can tell. So I was originally thinking, ooh, maybe we should change it to six months. And again, the idea of perhaps the Human Rights Commission could serve this role at least on a temporary basis. But it's definitely not something the Community Safety Working Group is going to be able to approach any time in the next, in the near future. That's not their charge. And they won't have created another committee in time to do this either. So I'm not quite sure what to do with that portion of it. Setting that aside for a moment, looking at the part about staff input and that and the feedback on the revised version. As Mandy Joseph pointed out, we didn't, they didn't get the staff input that they asked for. So therefore, we're not getting the staff input that was asked for. And I want to make a couple of points about that. One is that obviously everyone's overstretched. Two is that I don't want the police and IT coming back to another TSO meeting to just sort of free form answer questions. No, I want a written report from them. I don't think I'm going to get it. I think that's pretty evident that I'm not going to get it. And so given that, and I don't think it's valuable actually to just bounce it around with them because when we take it to Town Council, Town Council is going to ask the exact same questions. Where's the written report that explains how they can react to this? Where's and and then they actually, you know, they get it ahead. Council gets it ahead of time, thinks about it. Then when Scott and IT come to the meeting, Town Council meeting, they can say, Oh, that's what this means. Not just let's just have some random informal response to random questions that arise on the floor at a given moment when people are tired for other things. Given we have a process that we're still trying to make ourselves work through as a TSO and at the same time we have all these other things going on, I am strongly tempted to have us go ahead and say to the Town Council, we can't come up with a majority vote on this. We're missing this piece of information. We have this other misgivings. We have these other enthusiasms. We're bringing it back to the Town Council with our recommendation is the Town Council needs to look at this as a group. And the reason I say that is again, because it doesn't matter how good of a report I get from Scott and IT which I'm not going to get but it doesn't even matter how good of a report that is the Town Council still going to have all those questions too. So rather than delaying delaying delaying I feel like it's I don't feel like TSO can add anything else to this process. We've tried. We asked for certain things. We asked for it to be split up. We asked for certain responses. We got a lot of those. We didn't get the staff feedback that we would looking for. I don't see that we're going to. And so having us keep holding it doesn't feel to me like it's helping Town Council. And that's what our goal is, right, is we're to help the full Town Council. So I would just soon turn it back to the full Town Council say this is where we're at and ask the Town Council what do you think we should do? Do you want to all come back to a TSO meeting and watch us talk to IT and the police? Do you want us to just have it done at Town Council? What's your preference rather than just pushing it down the road? George? I find that this what we're doing is very helpful. I come with a lot of questions, complaints and whatever. But, you know, for instance, Alyssa's response earlier caused me to think there is perhaps a role for this. Creating a policy is not, right, necessarily a bad thing. An example she gave was very illustrative. So I find what we're doing very helpful. It doesn't lead to an immediate vote. Doesn't lead to immediate decision. I'm trying to think my way through this. I think a number of my colleagues have expressed that this is and that the sponsors know it. It's a complicated piece of legislation. It's got a lot of moving parts. It's not something that I think we should expect to go through in like one or two meetings. We do want to move with all deliberate speed. So on one hand, I want to credit Alyssa for her earlier response because it got me thinking, okay, there is perhaps a very good reason for why the sponsors have put this forward. We still have questions about whether we need to form a committee. There are other little specific details that we can look into. I would still like to hear a little bit more from staff, though I hear Alyssa's point that maybe it'll just be another one of those meetings where nothing really gets accomplished. And at that point, even I will throw it my hands. But I'm not, I don't think going back to the town council saying we can't make up our minds. We're trying to make up our minds. I think we hopefully we can reach a consensus together and say, okay, but it's going to take some time. I've already found in just the 20 or 30 minutes of this discussion that I see more clearly now what the sponsors have been trying to say that there is a place for creating this policy and having the town manager report back to us on a yearly basis. I can see that that makes sense. I still have some concerns about the impact it has on staff. I'd like to hear some more from them. I do not want to create a new committee, but maybe I'll change my mind there too. I don't think that's a good idea. I think the human rights suggestion is excellent. It seems like a perfect thing for them to take on if it's necessary. I really don't think there are going to be a lot of instances where this is going to be an issue. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think there's going to be. But if there are, the human rights commission would seem a perfectly logical place for it to go. So anyway, I think I find myself by listening to hear what you've been saying, hearing the sponsors, listening to Alyssa and the rest of you. You know, I can change my mind. I can see that. Okay, this makes, there's a reason for this. It's not just virtue signaling, as Alyssa pointed out. It isn't. Okay, but it's going to take time. Hopefully not months and months, maybe one or two more meetings. I don't know, but I don't think we should throw up our hands and say, oh my God, we can't reach a conclusion. We can't come to a vote. Heaven wants this. George wants that. Let's take our time. At least one more session, maybe two. And at that point, if we can't reach consensus, if the five of us can't agree and the sponsors agree with certain changes or whatever, then we go back to the council and say, okay, we have nothing really to give you. So I think we should hang in there. And not send it back to the council yet. Okay, thank you, George. So let's hear from Dorith and Alyssa and then try to wrap up in some way or another. Briefly, I'm agreeing with a lot of what George said. I think that what we have been doing here is helpful. I don't think that we have to necessarily come out with a report to the town council because Alyssa is totally correct. There's no way the town council will read our report no matter how beautifully written or whatever or how unanimous and say, great, we're going to do this. They're going to be asking questions and they're going to want to know the same stuff from the staff. So, but this gets our minds working, gets the sponsors thinking of how to respond. I do like the suggestion of the Human Rights Committee looking at it. One of the things we're supposed to be doing is not necessarily speaking for other people or speaking on issues that apply more to other people than to us. And this is, that's why I thought the Human Rights Commission would be good so we just see what they think about this, how seriously they take it. And maybe this is a very hot issue. I don't know because we haven't asked them. Okay, thank you Dorithy. I guess I would just like to say that I do really appreciate the sponsors bringing this forward and I do find it to be a very valuable by-law and I think it's, as I've said before, very forward thinking and needed in this era. I think that even though we don't necessarily see the threats right at the moment, that we see it in all other parts of our lives that surveillance is a trend. And so, yeah, big brother. There it is. Anyway, I think that George made a good suggestion and so the question is sort of what, in what form we want to hear back from the town. Are you there yet, Paul, by any chance? If we could conceivably, I could contact the town manager and ask them to get back from the different departments in writing to us before the next meeting. I could just ask him to come and represent them at our next meeting. I could ask the sponsors or we could ask the sponsors to meet with the town manager or department heads before the next meeting. My preference is the first is to ask the town manager to get back to us in writing before the next meeting in response to the new bylaw and the idea about his opinion about the committee. What are, are there any people who disagree with that? So why don't I, George? I think you don't mean obviously the meeting that, you mean the next formal meeting? Not the 12th. Right. What would be the date? To somebody on the 19th. And our meeting on the 19th is, that's the evening of the public budget forum at 6.30. So our meeting is at 4.30 that day, got moved with your consent, FYI. So is, is that good for you sponsors to come back on the 19th? And I will ask the town manager to respond to us in writing. And we'll see what happens. And I think this has been a good discussion. Do the, I'm sorry to interrupt Darcy, but do the sponsors feel like they have a clear sense of what they're being asked to do for next time? Darcy's made it clear that she as chair will reach out to Paul and try to get a written report from him articulating concerns, issues, problems. I take it is what we're asking from town staff. He would be the funnel through which that would come, rather than inviting again the police chief from Montana or whatever. It would be Paul either in person or read report that we would hopefully get in advance. That's going to be a challenge that we read before we gather on the, what is it, the 19th. And then I think what I've heard is that we, we'd like them to explore the human rights option, human rights commission option. Again, I'm speaking for myself, but I really am not keen to have another committee created, but that's, you know, the sponsors will present what they're going to present. But what else are we asking them to do so that we actually do make some progress next time? If we hear from staff, that would be pleasing to me. And I think to Evan and maybe to the rest of you, hear about human rights commission. I think that would be, you know, are they interested? Is that do the sponsors want to still go ahead with their own committee? That I don't necessarily think it's a deal breaker, but that's something we'd like to know. I have a few more specific questions that can wait till next time. But they're, they're picky things. They're not the larger issue of why do we need this? That's been addressed this evening. And I think it's been addressed before, but I think very nicely tonight. So sponsors seem like they have a clear sense of what they need to do. Darcy, is it clear sense? Is that fair to say? Yes. And I'm assuming the two of you are going to be meeting and talking about the, the pretend, the possibility of amending the committee piece Pat. I, you know, George is saying he has some picky issues. I think it would be efficient if you emailed them to us. Exactly. That's the entire committee so that we can look at them instead of wait until next time to hear them and not. So I think that would be really helpful. George, I agree that. I was going to say the same thing. Thank you. Yeah. And to the, you know, to the extent that the town manager can get back to us sooner. Obviously that would be helpful to the sponsors also before the next meeting. He needs to be pushed a little because he's been asked at several meetings to present this information and we haven't gotten it. So I think he really has to know that it's a clear deadline. Okay. So we'll, I'll, I'll try. I'll ask him to get it to you early enough so that you can respond to it before the meeting. Okay. So I think we know what we're doing on that. And it's 806. Can I? What's that? Alyssa? Alyssa. Yes. Thank you. So you're going to talk to the town manager about the fact that he hasn't gotten back to the sponsors in the way that they asked and also like they can make sure that their questions reflect the kinds of questions we just had tonight since they haven't been answered yet. Might as well include all of that. So there's going to be some communication there that you're going to facilitate Darcy between the town manager and the sponsors to ensure that the town manager understands that we need this as George indicated preferably ahead of time on the night prior to the 19th. And then in terms of this, so the sponsors actions, the only thing they're really doing between now and then if I'm clear is that if material does come back or if there's confusion about what those questions are to be answered, they're addressing that with the town manager. And then the other thing they're doing is they're thinking about their committee piece and they're potentially contacting the human rights commission. Is that the gist of it? Or am I missing something? We hadn't discussed that, but does that make sense? Mandy, Joe and Pat? I was going to say that that was my understanding on the committee function. I don't know, just add whatever, you know, if there's other, as George said, picky things if they could be emailed to us so that we can potentially create a new track changes version addressing some of those depending on what they are. That would be helpful too. Okay, everybody happy now? I'm not happy. None of us are happy today. I think this is overrated, frankly, but. Okay, so that's it for presentations, discussion and presentations. We're on to minutes. Thank you, Mandy. Thank you all. Yes, thank you very much. Okay, so we have the October 8th minutes last, that was the last meeting, but a month ago. Melissa has a hand up and maybe it's residual. Pardon? Melissa has a hand up. Is that, is that a current hand, Alyssa? That was just the one I shouted about earlier. It's all good. Okay. Okay, so have you all had a chance to look at the minutes? They weren't amended at all. They're just as they came. Can I make a motion or to approve the minutes? Did you just move? Yes, I moved to approve the minutes as presented. Okay. Dorothy, you're muted. I had read half of them, but I'm just skimming over the bit about TAC, and I guess I wish that the minutes were fuller on that. As I read over, I mean, I have my own notes, which are chaotic on that meeting. I'm trying to figure out what did we just hear and what we're going to do about TAC. So I found the meetings, the minutes on that part, too skimpy. So I'm wondering if there's a possibility of fuller minutes on that part of this, on that issue. The TAC. I, are you requesting that, Dorothy? Well, okay. We know that we have to do something about TAC and whatever it is in its relationship to TSO, that this is an item that we're going to be acting on. We had a big discussion with people from TAC, which is going to be part of what we consider as we go forward. In looking at the minutes, I'm finding it not clear. Can I just second George's motion? I feel like it's just been sort of sitting there. Yeah, yes. So I'm just, I'm just making a statement. Well, I accept the meetings, but I'm just making a statement of concern that this is an issue that we're going to be dealing with in the future and that we spent a lot of time on it. And I'm looking at the minutes here, and I don't even know, I'm not even sure what happens. I mean the four bubbles, the little dots, you know, of what we needed to do. Great. Well, I think that that's, that is an issue basically between Athena and Emily. And if we have an opinion, we need to put it out there because if we want minutes that basically detail what each counselor said, that's fine with me, but right now that's not what is happening. It's not even not what each counselor said, but it is just TAC relationships, the Department of Public Works and Town Council. Concerns about TAC public outreach without consulting Town Council. Town Council delegated authority to TAC or other committees and who does TAC report to. These are huge issues. And I don't really care who said what, but there was a lot more said that we have to at some point deal with. And the minutes do not give us, the minutes are too skimpy. Okay. Well, just just making a suggestion, a suggestion. I mean, I have my own scribbly minutes, which with some effort I could find. But when we deal with this, we had them here for an hour. The big discussion. And then it kind of dropped and all I've got left these minutes and it's not, it's not enough. That's what I'm saying. Well, we obviously have the video. So it's not like we don't have the discussion, but and we have the report that I think is a little more detailed. But anyway, I can talk to Athena and ask her what she thinks. I personally would like a little bit more also, but I think it's been between Athena and Emily. Emily, if you want to weigh in, you're welcome to. But I think that generally, you know, Athena has been suggesting that it'd be on the lighter side. But if we want it more, we can do that. I would actually prefer it myself. I like blow by blow myself. I want to hear what every single person said. But I've forgotten that the minutes weren't yours. And so I was really speaking personally to you. I think it is a Darcy's and she didn't, you know, OK, you're right. The minutes are much more complicated than that. Yes. All right. Oh, look, everyone wants to talk now, George. Just quickly, I think one has to go to the tape. I think we, I'm not happy about that either. But I think even if we had excellent minutes, one might still have to go back to the tape for something like tack because it is it was a long discussion. It was detailed. There's a lot of back and forth. And I do believe we are going to pick this up at some future meeting, correct? It will be an agenda item where we will go. We were supposed, I thought we were going to do it this time, but maybe I've forgotten. But at some point, we will come back to tack and that conversation. And at that point, some of us, at least one of us, at least should go back and look at the tape. Sure. Emily, you have something to add? Yeah. So first of all, I just want to say that I actually thought that I was taking too long of notes. So lately I've been trying to consolidate them a little bit more. I thought that you guys were like, oh my God, so many pages. But if you guys want me to do more detail, I can do more detail. So what, if you guys really want me to, I can go back and fill in a more detailed part of that tack if you want me to. I just have to look at the video. But if you want to do that instead of approving them, I totally get that. And I could probably give it to you literally like within the next two days, but up to you guys. Okay. In your raw minutes, Emily, did you take all of the detailed notes and then you condensed it? Usually, I mean, usually I get most of it and I try not to condense it too much. But for that meeting, I remember that was a long one. I don't know if I, I can't really remember because I usually work off of the same document. But for that section, I mean, I, for that section, I can just go back and like do a more detailed description. Okay. Do we think that's necessary, Dorothy? Well, I see head shaking, but I do. And you know, at ACC, we have to record our classes and they are automatically captioned, often slightly poorly. But they can be, I'm just wondering if it would be easier to have our recording changed. I guess we do it through Kaltura to have the minutes captioned and then the note taker makes the corrections. Because it's, anyway, it's just a thought. I understand that it's very difficult to do these things, but I don't, there was a long detailed discussion. I don't relish having to go and find the video that will probably take me three hours right there and then watching it to do it. So I would appreciate if she was able to do it and it's not too onerous. You know, if it's really, really hard, I feel bad asking you to do it. But if it's not too difficult, I would appreciate it. Oh, it's not, that wouldn't be difficult. I can do that. Alyssa, you have something to add? I do. It's not up to TSO how much time Emily spends on this. That's actually not okay for her to volunteer to do that without talking to her boss, which we are not her boss. She's paid based on the kinds of minutes that the town has decided are adequate minutes. I understand what you're saying, Dorothy, about those not being as much as you'd like. But we, she can't. Thank you very much for agreeing, Emily, but you can't do that. That's not okay for you to do that. You need to talk to your boss about, this is what they said, this is how long I think it'll take me. Are you cool with that? That would be fine. But I don't want to pressure you to do that. And I also don't feel at all comfortable saying that because every committee could be looking at this differently in terms of how much detail they want. I think one of the fundamental issues though here, Dorothy, is here's the reality of town government. You don't get a transcript. You have to take your own notes. The minutes are never going to be sufficient to tell you what happened at a meeting. And nobody ever wants to go back and watch the video. All those things are true. You're not going, you don't want to watch it. It's not going to, it's not a transcript. It's not going to be sufficient. And we certainly don't want a blow by blow. And then Councillor Pam said, and then Bruce said, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, it would be cool actually if that was just all automated and we could read that. Of course it would take a several hours to read it. But that's not how minutes work. That's not what minutes are. If you look at what the state requires of minutes, it's nowhere near that level of detail. And so to say I'm frustrated because the minutes don't have enough information for me to be able to act next time, that's actually your problem, not the minutes problem. Because we have to take our own notes. We can't just depend on the minutes to get us to where we want to go. I'm sorry that it's not that simple, but it's just not. Okay, why I suggest, I have a suggestion. Why don't I talk with Athena about it? Tell her that this was brought up as an issue. And in the meantime, why don't we approve these minutes? And then going forward, if Athena is okay with us having a little bit more fleshed out minutes, then we'll do that. But it is also a question of how much we pay our minute takers and how long it takes them. So okay, and thank you for offering that Emily because that was very nice of you to do. So and I'll talk with Athena. So shall we approve these minutes? We have to have a vote. Yes, I'm just waiting for someone to object. I have a motion that's been seconded, so I'll do as well. So, okay, Alyssa? Yes. Darcy, yes, Dorothy? Yes. Evan? Yes. George? Yes. Okay, that was a long time to approve the minutes. Anyway, okay, so announcements, we have, we now have our next meeting on November 12th at 5 p.m. And then we have the next week meeting the 19th at 4.30. So that's confusing. That's what we're doing. And so we'll announce that at the meeting on Monday, just in case anyone's interested. And the next meeting agenda preview, I am interested in hearing from, well, we're obviously on the 19th, we're going to have the surveillance technology back. I'm interested in hearing from both George and Dorothy and from Alyssa on there. They all have agenda topics that are out there. Just wondering if you have any thoughts about when they might come up. Well, Dorothy and I have met with Guilford and we have asked him to send us something before the 19th meeting. So if we get that, we would be prepared to talk about the broader issue of parking regulations town-wide, not Lincoln per se, but the larger issue of, you know, does, is there make sense for this committee or somebody to fashion town-wide regulations? And so we would hopefully be prepared to speak on that. We're speaking only on residential parking. Okay. We're not doing the same thing the parking study was doing. Downtown, not village centers and not major thoroughfares. It's residential parking. And Guilford felt that there might be some sense to creating a set of guidelines or regulations and also whether it could be centralized in some way. So it's all fairly speculative at the moment, but we thought we might have something to give you. Right now, we don't know for certain though, because Guilford has to get back to us. And so when you say you thought you might, you think you might have something to give us in like slides or a report or something, a proposal? And a proposal is possible. Yeah. It doesn't exist now. It's going, it needs to be created. It's contingent on what happens from Guilford. I mean, we're waiting for something from him. So that does not currently exist. That is correct. And he thinks needs to exist. But I mean, I wrote a report of the meeting, which I sent to Guilford and George for comments and correction before, you know, I was going to send it to you. But there's a lot of issues here that are very, very important. Guilford was very interested in our working on this, but it's in his court right now. He is sending a list of the things that he thinks. And we will then very soon be able to present something to the committee. Okay. So that we should cancel in this report into the night. Very lightly. Yes, very lightly. Yeah. Alyssa. So Lynn and I are supposed to be working on the public way discussion and one, well, we're not is we're not ready for anything at this point. But the other thing I just want to point out is that that does interface with the conversation we had at town council the other day about the extending the temporary zoning bylaw, right? Article 14. And the fact that when we did that temporary zoning bylaw at the same time, we gave the town manager some additional permissions under our then current public way policy. And so that also needs to be extended. So that is in theory, a TSO issue as well. And so it sounded like Mandy Joe kind of, you know, had the organization behind that, like presenting article 14, which I know was part of the hearing was a hearing. There was a hearing on last night. And then also presenting the town council public way part of it. So I'm assuming she's talking to Lynn about that. But so what I'm saying is Lynn and I don't have a new proposal at this point for dealing with public way requests and how that's going to work. But the first part of it that might come up is this extension of the town manager's authority that is the, you know, the companion piece to the extension of the temporary zoning under article 14. So I guess we'll see if anything comes up town council Monday, given that there will be a report on what happened associated with the hearing for the temporary zoning of article 14 and that extension. And then because we did make clear, I thought at the last town council meeting that TSO would need to be able to look at that extension in order to make a recommendation to the town council. So I don't know what the timing's like on that because, you know, December again is the date on that. And we have limited town council time between now and then and not being part of agenda setting. I don't know where that fit in, which actually leads me to a completely other question not to derail us from this is that I'm confused because somebody was asking me about surveillance technology and I said, well, we already did the facial recognition because like TSO is done with it. Right. We made our recommendation to the town council. It's my understanding that's with GOL right now. Do we have any sense of where that is in terms of the time frame because this is starting to, you know, get confusing because we've got that and then we've got surveillance technology as a separate issue, which is obviously going to take us some more time. So do we know when the council's planning to act on facial recognition or do we not know that? Are you asking? Yes. I'm asking, do we know that? I don't know it. No. Okay. So I didn't forget something. We don't know it. Okay. Okay. So we at least know what we're going to do at the next meeting at the meeting on the 19th, that is. And no, the next meeting is on the 12th. Right. The 12th is devoted only to the community safety work group appointments. Right. And surveillance technology and parking, hopefully. We may have appointments. Don't know. What about, may I ask about TAC and the follow-up on TAC? I thought that was something we're actually going to do, but I'm just curious. Yeah. The chair asked to, you know, just, he asked for some time for them to come up with a charge, which they have done. They actually had a meeting today, which I attended 45 minutes of before this meeting. Um, so there, uh, that is, I think their third meeting that they had, and they circulated a proposed charge and a cover letter to the town manager and to, um, Hilford and the rest of the committee to look at. And they, they, they just need some more time there. They asked for more time. So like a reasonable thing to ask for. So I'm, I'm, I'm expecting like maybe in two or three meetings, they'll be ready to come back and talk to us. And is that also a possible retreat topic as part of that, you know, that survey that Lynn sent us in terms of committee's relationships to the council, because TAC can sit and write its own charge all at once. But if the town manager doesn't want them to do that stuff, that means they don't get to do it. So, um, one assumes that, yes, it will, it will follow a process, but we may also be having this broader conversation at a retreat, which may help inform our next TSO conversation about TAC. Sure. So I would comment that on the October 8th meetings, minutes, um, oh, I just, I, are you here? I just lost the picture. Yeah, here you go. I can see you. Okay, great. On the minutes of October 8th, there's a lot about what TAC has to do and it doesn't say what happens afterwards, but one of them is TAC has no clear body to advise at this moment, which is relating to something that Alyssa was saying. Then they're talking about road forms have to be up, out, updated. And the need for a structured relationship between TAC and the town council council. So this is all like unclear and uncharted. We don't know what it's to be and what they want it to be. So this is Ryan suggested that Hayden revised the TAC charge and wants to clarify what documents TAC uses in regards to transportation. And then there's this whole list of them in the minutes, including a street regulations document, which I think I want to get a copy of. And then it says TAC is also working on a list of priorities for the committee can offer to the town council as well. So not resolved at all in that is TAC, you know, related to what is the relationship of TAC to TSO. And as Alyssa said, it's not just their decision or our decision. There clearly were a lot of very cross signals given to us that suggested that somebody did not want TAC to continue. And so when Aaron Hayden came to us, he was busy making the case. We do a lot of things, but I don't have a clear picture. And I don't know if anyone here does. But whatever it is, they have to do some work. And then in some format, these issues should be resolved. I don't know, Alyssa has some idea of how they get resolved or. Alyssa, is that a current hand? I mean, yeah, I mean, I think that we just we let to something like Darcy originally said, we let play out what they're what they're attempting to do and their interaction with the town manager. So at least they're on the same page with the town manager who's their appointing authority. And then the town manager says, well, that's interesting. Now it's time for you to talk to TSO again. And TSO perhaps having had a conversation at the retreat about relationships with other committees would be informed. So it seems like we don't necessarily have a thing to do, but to see how their conversation with the town manager, meaning also what his perception is as to what he thinks. And then it comes back to us and potentially Paul's there. And we say, no, we think that's a completely wrong way of approaching it. Or, oh, yeah, that sounds like a great way of approaching it. And then we go from there. But, you know, tax been doing the work. So if they can figure out what they think makes sense. I mean, we're happy to take their efforts, right? Yes, they're, you know, they are populated by a whole group of experts in different areas. So, you know, seems like it makes sense to figure out how to work together with them. But anyway, so I don't think we have anybody. No, no. How does it say eight participants? And I guess it is just eight participants. No, no public comments. No items not anticipated. And I think that's it for tonight. I declare this meeting adjourned. Thank you. Thank you. Good night all. Thank you. We all later.