 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is someone who makes me wish I had an iron gut. It's Tom. What's up, buddy? Hello friends. Ah That's a new one at any rate also joining us this week the one and only Kenny Lowe from combat phase. What's up, buddy? How you doing? There you go Kenny has been Kenny has been working through his his ogres recently he's been you've been doing some some ogre playing and Tom, I think you have yourself locked on you by the way. I don't know why I Don't know what that means, but okay. That's fine. I'll fix it like you you need to see if you have a little white box around yourself on your screen No, okay. Well, somebody's locked on Tom because when Kenny talks it doesn't flip to him. That's fine I'll handle it at any rate That's what it is. I can just click on me and now I have white box sure Yeah, for whatever reason somebody has you selected. Well, so that just means that it's a Tom show Apparently that is the case Don't worry. I'll flip over to Kenny when he's talking as often as I can I somebody said Kenny is quiet. So you might need to lean in some Kenny. I can hear you fine. Am I quiet? Chat people are that better? No, I'm here. You're fine. Yeah, I get it. Let's see if you can hear Tom fine. They're both coming from the same sound source Gotcha, all right Okay, cool. Oh, they said it does jump to Kenny. He's just very quiet. Okay, great No, I mean the image is not jumping to Kenny like I'm watching the stream right now. Okay, so I don't know what's going on It's broke. Oh, there we go. Oh Kenny's back. Okay. It's working. No, okay, great I mean, whatever we'll figure it out. Whatever It's fine. Look, I'll play with it. Let's get to the news. How about that? Go ahead first off Tom Take us through some news You don't have the room ranging up. I don't because it's dumb and no one cares Yeah, no room ranging. Sorry, it's a 40k thing. Who cares then let's talk about gamma. That's right, buddy That's what we're here to talk about Here I'm gonna do this Kenny real quick talk again for me All right, I'm enjoying a nice glass of Captain Morgan's finest Okay So someone tell me in the comments in a few moments if Kenny was louder now at any rate. Let's talk about gamma. So Go go Tom go gamma So daughter's the cane. That's right That's what's up on screen because that's what freaking matters. Look at these gorgeous ladies of murder right here They're gloms. They're the gorgeous ladies of murder This is how you do it folks that hag queen harkens back to the original like sorceress from years ago The witches are incredible. Why don't all the rest of the witches look like this like? Oh my god, the it's It's amazing sister has such movement the snake even looks great because she's in such a wonderful like Sliding into a pose. Yep. Yep It's good like I'm glad that you can buy the hag queen without buying the cauldron Yeah, now there's finally an opportunity. All right, I turned Kenny and Tom up again So we'll see if that helps a little more people said it was better. So that's good So you're saying that I've been turned up you have been turned up. Yes, Tom. That's correct Kenny, what do you think of the the daughters? This will be a good chance to do more sound test with you I think look awesome when I first opened the picture, but it looks kind of like Britney Spears a little bit with the makeup just like the first image I saw because it was on a very large screen But I think they're great models too and I was asking Actually my my coach like what do you know your son is eight plays Warhammer underarms with you like are these appropriate for little kids? I mean, they're just models like what's this, you know, it's just kind of interesting Like I never really thought of it that way But I think the models are great and I love being able to get him without having to buy that kit Even though there's a new start collecting box now too I mean their clothes cover more than most bathing suits at public pools Yeah, I mean that's absolutely true One true two these figures. I mean these are actually the witch elves here are much more clothed than the normal witch elves It's true. Like the normal brawns and bikini thongs. Yeah, like they have loincloths here. Come on now Well, the ones girls wearing like a full corset there that you can see so It's classy. It is classy. Yes No, these girls look amazing like I want to buy this warband so Much I thought I was done with daughters. I thought I was never going to paint another daughter. I really did I thought I was completely done Uh, but I was wrong and this has uh painting a unit written all over it So I'm sure I'll pick them up at some point. It's not going to be a An immediate thing, but I will definitely have to pick them up at some point Uh Because they are pretty pretty gorgeous So nice gulps. Yeah. Yeah, I'll wait until they give just the models. They do that still right like where you can buy just the models Yeah, it takes like a about a month like maybe four or six weeks and you can get them for 25 instead of 30 without the cards Yes, saving that big five dollars I'll make you could sell those cards Like for more than the five dollar gap. Well, I'm not playing underworld. So there you go But I'm saying like Yeah, yeah All right, cool. What else gamma so we had though these girls which are awesome. Um, I don't know They release something else, right? Uh They did tom for your favorite army the army that you can't wait to buy all That you have nothing but unmitigated joy and excitement for we got to see another unit from the lumineath realm lords or pointy elves or Disappointing elves depending on your current temperature on them. I mean, I'll say this They are adding a new meaning to pointy elves So they so we saw the archers I love when we saw the original, you know, rumor engine of that three stringed bow Yeah, and we were like, well, maybe it's just a big I said, you know Probably just a big strong person and people are like bows don't work that way You can't just add more strings and I was like, yeah, but that doesn't matter, you know fantasy whatever right and And here we are it's just it's not even a big strong person It's just regular elves and they're just using triple stringed bows I mean yeah Like I Like the elves look like they should be coming from whoville with those helmets I mean, am I wrong? No, you're not wrong Little Cindy Lou who who was no more than two and had a triple string bow. She used to shoot you I mean Yeah, like I just I don't like I want to be constructive. Um Good instinct. I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and broadcast what chaos spawn said the lumineff capital is called bland city Famous for its mayonnaise sandwiches and every ice cream shop sells only vanilla I would also add that they're well known for their regular cheese pizza Uh Like I Uh, uh, if If if I go down this road of elves Uh, I there's gonna be some serious head swapped happening. Sure. Look like to be honest It almost every sculpt. It's the heads. I think are dumb Yeah, the heads like almost uniformly are the problem The rest of the model is good like when I look at the rest the archers. I was like, okay Well, I'm except protect us, but you know, we'll get to him in a second. Let's leave him to the side Yes, I agree the archers the spear dudes like most of the stuff I actually hate is just the heads It's an army that just like I feel now like people felt when they were talking about obr and they didn't like smiling skulls Which I had no problem with that's that's the part. I like the most about obr. Yeah Um But here we are but here we are Uh, I mean Go ahead. No, as you're saying Kenny What's your what's your take so far in the looming that's how you feeling on them? So I committed to playing a long time ago a few years ago I was thinking more like the warhammer quest type look and they've been A little bit bland, but I think um the mountain guys kind of got me intrigued. I gotta say I don't know. I mean if I don't rush out to play another army. That's great. I don't know. It's gonna happen, but you know, they're just I don't know like I've been I've had an idea of just something very different and they seem Uh, so far the units I've seen haven't really fit Whatever the the expectation was just I don't know what it was but just something different and they're a little bit Uh, they're a little different than I thought they might be so I'm waiting for like the reveal of the characters Now I do like like al-thari and I think that's really cool He has he's a standout led light or something inside of him make the glow and Uh, but I'm trying I'm trying to tell myself that I'm starting to like them But it's a kind of questionable about going down the path or when I will go down the path I guess, you know, is it before not mill with meltdown or after? Gotcha. Is it summer or fall army? Basically, it's where I'm looking at sure People are asking to still speak up just a little Kenny So you got you got to put a little more oomph into it from the from the diorite. There you go elves. Yeah There you go Uh Perfect. Can you stay at that level of intensity? That's what I need Absolutely. All right. I got this. I mean this is the ogre show. It's time to speak from the diaphragm, right? That's right. Like if people like these elves, you know, awesome Never ever ever on the show Put I want to put this down because I'm going to make fun of some elves now and in the future Uh, never ever ever are you wrong for liking a thing period? That is the end of that full stop. Okay Hey, like what you like and like when it comes to aos models. I mean if you like murder or something That's not good. Don't like that But you know in when it comes to these models, there's no wrong There's no wrong here. If this if an aesthetic grabs you super sweet We're always just talking our personal opinion. Okay, that's all Nothing more and so how about you make fun of some elves? Yeah, so I'm ready. Okay. Let's drag some elves Uh, all right great. Uh, those helmets are terrible Uh, I didn't like them at all floaty mage guy with his giant yak horn helm The the the running the ongoing thing that's happening in this army of yaks and mountains Leads me to hope beyond hope like I know we've seen the traditional elvish cavalry and those are there But god if we get yak riders If we get elvish yak riders mountain-based yak riders I will be so happy like I will flip over the moon Uh because that would be incredible Um the eagle handlers too. Yeah, sure. Absolutely, but they're just it's always like mountains and uh Uh You know a lot of yak imagery mountains and yaks yaks and mountains There are things about this I enjoy in the article they talked about how everybody's stuff is flowing in the same direction Like all their tassels and dangles and everything and they put stuff on everybody to catch the wind Uh, which that puts me in mind of a song. That was a song, right? something about catching the wind um but the I I just I don't like all the dangly bits hanging off all of them the one the the girl they previewed who's clearly like, uh, a girl with a Uh Vail over face I know a girl with a veil over face looks cool, but we're way too zoomed in I have a feeling that's going to be a small part of a larger diorama to agree with what martin orlando said He was the first one who mentioned that and I tend to agree with him Yep, um Probably the tirion diorama I know that you don't want tirion in here, but I mean it seems to be pointing that direction Yep, uh, I mean very well could be uh So The uh In general, I thought I don't like the mage. I don't like his super giant head and his super giant horns right That was also what we got revealed the mage the new mage who's some kind of like mountain earth mage Right, so do you think that we have like a like an entire race of benders? And so you have all four elements I I I don't know man because you got the earth The air thing going on sure well not only that but I also recognize that if you look in the sword hilt Of the archer There's an icon of the flame Yeah, I think they're going to go for an elemental-ish thing with this Okay, yeah, but I don't care when it's just like a minor thing like that No, but we may not have the elementals revealed yet Because if you'll remember let me point out that when they talked about these elves They said that that that teckless went and enlisted the dwellers of high-ish The spirits of high-ish and so I'm wondering if those spirits are elemental spirits And we see and so we get like so what if the other half of this army are all Elementals like full on like rocks and fire and water and wind Cool that'd be neat that'd be amazing Yeah, um, they may have my attention if if it takes a hard right I think you know like into something into design like that But I see that as highly unlikely, but okay. No, I agree with that as they're going. I'm just like Uh, the good thing is is I have hundreds of elf heads And so doing hell of head swaps like man those uh sisters of the watch like the 40 or 50 sisters of watch heads that I have Going to do double duty on those archers Yeah, the mount man's getting me. I'm I'm getting brought in by the mountain. I think You like the so you're saying you're you're a fan of the the Contemplative mage with the giant yak horns. I am. Yeah, I want to see what that looks like I know I might be in minority, but I definitely want to see I mean I I think I'm hoping it's it's not a model that's going to bend too much Like it's like you're gonna or you're gonna break it But I I'm intrigued and I do like that whole or as this is the dwarf player in me I like the whole like earth magic thing. So I It goes through the elementals that'd be amazing Because uh, I mean we have you know, they're doing the whole like a lot of female and male kits mixed together with these Sure, but I really want to see where it goes as far as the elemental thing and since you said that now It's like stuck to me. So I need the payoff Sorry gw I've set expectations Sorry Um, I'm a simple man. Yeah, I mean what I would say is that I think that it could be neat Even if somebody didn't like even if they don't have those in the army I'm sure that you could do a series of Like from a paint scheme standpoint and you could lean into like the you know, the elemental bending I I'm good with that as long as they make it a real part of the army If it's just some minor sub theme that normal elves kind of have elemental stuff going on if they're alpha mentals Okay I'm not like spell was an a e. Yes a l of the mentals correct Um, and there's an extra e at the end of that uh What if they had like all Like what if they were four different lures? So like one for each of the elements cool I have your course. Sure. It's a good place to start. It's kind of what I'm expecting the force of factions, right Um, I mean it's very tau Oh, is it? I'm not familiar with tau So tau warriors like in the in the lower kenny can explain this much better than me, but yeah, but I was happy when you brought in tau Because like the tau warriors the people you see on the battlefield are from like the fire cast generally And like they're the warriors of the society and then there's like what the water cast is the Their diplomats and traders is that right and like each each cast has a different uh role within the society that they play Interesting Um, whatever doesn't matter. I I only minorly know tau lore, but that's what I remember from 2005 Well, I hope that uh, I mean, maybe they do go that direction. I don't know Because I've heard other people make tau comments before about them. So I don't know. Yep. So I mean they shoot Yeah, and they shoot. Yeah, exactly. Yes Uh, okay, so We also As part of an article that got posted the day before We also got some more images of techless So I'm gonna bring him up on screen. I'm gonna cover up kenny and tom for a moment. Oh good Oh, all right. Is this the uh, the scented image? This is uh, this is uh, yes, I zoomed in. Well, this is a particular image and Wow I thought I hated this And then and then I saw this picture and I was like, wow, I hate this so much more than I imagined So You're saying it's a it's a it is literally a model Like right out of slanesh's wheelhouse. This is this is a nightmare like What happened to teclas's face? Did did the end times explode directly onto his face? Kind of deserves it though. Sure. I don't I don't disagree Uh geez Yeah Uh, yeah, so, um, I mean, I've I've gone through everything I don't like about this guy before I've got more to add to the list now that I saw this more clear clean Do you have the sewage? Do you have the silhouette photo from behind? I don't I do not know Oh So you don't like the model? I get the odd urge to go to vegas when I see this for some reason. I don't know Maybe it's the The weird creature that he's writing. Mm-hmm. Sure put you in mind of like sort of uh Like excess the type of magical creatures and things like that that are around at the big casinos that they always use Satuary and stuff And I mean teclas so I mean this proves that even a god can get constipated in age of sigmar So I mean that's good. Mm. There's a little something here. It's learning a lot about the realms Uh Yeah, so at any rate this is sure. I hate this sugar glider teclas. Yes Uh, I mean you're not wrong like Yeah, uh an aos coach just asked a question that is this episode about ogres or bashing elves Uh a proper ogre episode is about bashing elves. I'm not sure what type of ogres you normally play, but they're not elf friends All right teclas can go away now There you go. Yeah Oh Like I just I like mgm art Why do you just have to like flash it in my face because it's fun to me. We just can we drop it? Sure. There you go Like this is not like Yes, yay the elves are terrible. Um They are they aren't what you were looking for. Let's say it that way Yep, yeah, I agree They don't mean that they don't grab me either But I'm happy about that because I already know I got multiple armies theoretically coming this year So good. I didn't want to even be remotely tempted by these guys. So and I'm not I mean it looks like it looks like my non-buying streaks Staying for a little longer. Just wait till them giants come out. All right. We'll see uh, sure uh Okay, so other uh any other news items we want to talk about because I've got one Uh, I mean you can go ahead. It's fine. I don't think we have any other news Relatively other than the gamma stuff is a relatively quiet week Obviously, we've got seraphon mostly coming out articles and that book comes out this week So we will be doing a full review of that book at some point here Yep Uh So down in the description of this video once it goes live You are going to see three three three count them three little survey links Uh, those little survey links are basically The same they're they're sort of it's 30 questions They're all the same format and it's asking you what you think about the model lines that have been reduced Sorry that have been uh released During uh ages sigmar what you personally thought of them on a one to ten scale and what you think Others have thought about them or what the general acceptance of them has been on a one to ten scale Uh, there have been 15 Sort of model line updates. I'm not counting single figure models that were released as part of a Uh box set. So in other words, no scaven no fec no ogres people like that. Sorry ogres I know you're on the show, but such as life. I had to I had to cut a line somewhere Uh, and when you think of the ogre line, you don't think of the one character you think of the line Right and so to be clear what he's he's putting his finger on is that these are these are lines that are basically purely aos Or were largely shaped by their aos releases, right? Right, right? Obviously predate aos, but the iron jaws army is still a has been has very much been shaped by its aos releases So the thing with silvin f like it has some Daughters of kane is a good example. Yes, there were witch elves and sisters of slaughter, of course, but Canary and malusai and marathi, right? These were were very big additions to the line, right? Yep. Yep So at any rate, uh, if you've got those surveys the surveys take like a minute to complete each So it's like three minutes of your time Uh, so when you're done, please go down there and click that and take those surveys I'm trying to collect as much data as possible. I have several hypotheses I would like to test and the more people who answer the higher we get towards statistical significance So this is this was a random conversation that emerged out of the facebook like chat Yeah, just exploded into everything that exploded into a very large scientific progress When you reveal these are you gonna have like a survey says like type thing or you're just you're not just gonna read them Are you no, I am not going to just read them. There will be a show Yeah, we'll do a show dedicated to this I have to so I'll probably leave it open through the end of the week Then I'll close the survey. So if you want to do it, please if you're watching this I'll probably leave it open through like the weekend because some people watch on the weekend So leave it open through there I'll probably try to synthesize the data at the end of the weekend beginning of next week And uh, and then I'll then probably our next week show will be about it probably Uh, let me do that Are you done with that conversation? I am so they'll be down there after that Um, I'm just gonna have one other like semi serious or actually very quite serious comment, uh, and that's regarding the um the ongoing COVID-19 Uh Officially declared pandemic. Sure. Sure. Um, I just want to remind folks that are going to be attending events Um to to keep an eye on your event pages Um to find out what's happening. Um, I had a professional conference that was supposed to start tomorrow and it got cancelled today And so, uh, I have another professional conference next month and I'm supposed to be at that's probably not going to happen Um, so I just say I'll just say that for those that uh have events coming up in the next month One of the big ones is adepticon, but there's uh There's a bunch of others, especially in the uk Um, just keep an eye. Um, make keep, you know, keep watching this the the information sources of your tos Just to see what's going what's ongoing because the situation seems to be uh evolving rapidly And we just need to pay attention to that. Sure. And if you are going out into like a big event like that the answer is just follow all the normal precautions that the CDC and other world health organization people have recommended like, you know Don't avoid physical contact with people that is to say don't shake hands and do things like that You can you can just as easily wave and say hi or do a little foot bump or give people the spock symbol or whatever You know, whatever you want to do. Sorry. There we go And you know, you can still be nice and friendly and wash your hands regularly and avoid touching your face And everything will be fine, right? Like and if and by the way, if you do feel ill in any way, uh, don't go It's just and if you have a fever stop Yeah, please please don't come to an event if you have a fever or are ill There you go. And we can all be rational and we'll be fine So there you go Uh, yeah, I think that's a great note tom Uh 100% Okay, so gentlemen, uh, shall we go to some pick of the week? Uh, Kenny What do you got for us? You know, I haven't actually mentioned this on your show But I'm sure you guys know it and some people do but one of my favorite podcasts actually is is somewhat local to us But um, it's called cubic shenanigans It comes out in Milwaukee And I'm a big fan. It's got uh, brendon and and uh, dan do it together and I I think it's just a great It's not here a podcast so Nice No, it's a good way. It's worth checking out. I don't know if you have a you already have a link or something You can throw below but I do 40k and a just sing more together and they'll tell you and they time stamp the show but I just um For a variety of like information and reviews, but also like tips about how to be a better player because I'm not I'm willing to become a better player. I just think um The sound quality everything too and I just think it's a really good show And I don't know how popular it is, but I would like it to be more popular. Nice. It's a great It's a great pick. I will link that that down below Tom, what do you got? I got nothing You got Tom's got one of the weeks. I understand. Tom's had a rough week Uh, everybody should I'm not going to go into it, but everybody should uh should give tom a nice thumbs up message Give tom a nice message in the chat or something like that. Tom's had a rough week. So we're all thinking about tom Uh, not a problem. So my pick of the week, uh, my pick is actually an event that uh With that, uh, somebody reached out to me for but it's a little ways away and as far as I know right now It's still happening. So it's uh, april 11th and 12th. So we'll see fingers crossed Uh, it's in vancouver canada Uh wet coast gt Uh, there's 33 people signed up for it right now and they'd like to uh last year They had 36 and they'd like to beat that. So let's see if we can make that happen wet coast gt I'll drop the link down in the description So there you go run by some really really great people. Um, I heard all positive things about this last year. So Go check it out. I'll put it down below If you're up there in that area that vancouver ish area Okay All right, um, I uh Bribe, uh, I completely agree with you that does seem absolutely patently true Um, I Thank you for nosing sure uh, okay So, uh, okay, let's um Let's uh, let's talk about some hobby time Kenny what you've been working on buddy From from the diaphragm. What do you got? I have been working on uh ogres and The last three models for my storm cats for the team event the evocators on dracolines the little uh sex panthers So I have been I I finished my fourth iron blaster, which I don't think is dirty. I'm either going to do Extremely poor or maybe have one really good thing at depticon But um, I'm just going through and touching everything up. Uh, because the last I mean, I rushed to get it done for holy wars and Wow, we had a great game I I really enjoyed everything and I've just been trying to get them a bit nicer and and do some more detail in the Bases and uh get things where I need to be so then of course I just as preparing for this just changed my list again yet again So I have to pull from the the pile of already done models But I've been working on getting everything for the ogres ready and and I want some flexibility too in case I change my mind Yet again, which I probably will So and I'm sure by the end of this discussion I'll change it two or three more times with your input and tom's input But yeah, that's pretty much just been um fatties and sex panthers has pretty much been my week That's a great week to me fatties and sex panthers sounds like a fantastic week That's that's I couldn't plan a better week reminds me of an event also in Vancouver. No Tom yeah, indeed. Tom, what do you got man? What are you working on? Warps Yes, still dwarfs, huh? Yeah, these are uh, so I Somehow went I tripled my model count that I needed to have painted Well done In the last week Because of lists You know, you know how it is. Sure. Um, and then I arbitrarily decided that I am tired of Uh carding my huge board To adept con like subjecting us to that. Let me pause real quick I want to say this tom for our army. This is not a joke. This is 100 serious. Okay. I had a dream last night okay I awoke from this dream With visions of the display I had originally thought about a display board and I thought I knew what it was going to be For this army I'm building. Okay for the for the whirlwinds edge Yeah, but in the dream I saw a model. I saw a board. Okay And I saw what it should be and I was like, no, this is it. I awoke from it and immediately it was like That was too amazing and I realized you have that moment of realization that it's not real Yeah, yeah, as you pass back into awake and I was so sad And I was like, no, I will make this real So I I know what it is like I know where we're going with our next display board and uh I'm I'm gonna go insane. I want you to know that so just that's what we're teasing right now I'm excited for insane events Um If we have to rent a van for havoc, I'm okay with that. Sure. It's entirely possible Okay, uh, I I don't hate that idea. Um, and uh Yeah, but in the meantime, I I wanted to make our life a little bit easier for the adepticon commute Um, and assuming it's gonna happen and so I started a board um Just Kind of accidentally and now it's like in full swing. Uh, sure like 100 percent percent in full swing and so now, uh Yeah, it's it's well in its way. It's going to be part two of my, uh Of my uh of my Dwarf board And what I mean by that is like it's a two by two that like connects to my current big board Um, and so I I also have a vision I also have a dream vince of a six by four foot uh both Game board and also display board for my army for the dwarfs And so uh, this is going to be the second part of that and so it's already been lined up and Everything is uh in alignment with the prior board. And so I'm excited to keep building So I say that to say, uh, I'm interested and I can't wait to see your dream. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be fun It's going to be fun. Uh For my personal hobby time, uh, I finished up, uh, this This sexy little beast. That's right. She's ready to go this gorgeous Uh cat llama here. She's all ready to rock They're lustrous locks So super fun model, uh That's a little weird how they decided to model some of the fur on her where she has like very smooth skin That suddenly turns into like weird little fur patches But you know, we we navigated that as best we could that's a strange choice modelers Like that was a very strange choice. Uh, but that's okay So, uh, I'll share some pictures up this weekend probably, uh, but I really I really did enjoy painting this model. It was a lot of fun. Uh, this is exactly right Okay, what I mean by that is we talk about the over detail Stuff, you know This is so exactly right tom. Like this thing is exactly the right amount of detail. Yeah, it's perfect Like I was at no point inconvenienced In person. Yeah, I'm gonna buy one, but I look forward to seeing one in person Yeah, it's it's a lot of fun. It's gorgeous and it went together real simple too. Like easy to put together Perfect amount of detail very fun to paint. There's like I I loved this thing. This is an a plus model Uh cat llama It just knocked it out of the park. It's a grand slam. There you go Okay, so Uh, cool. All right, obviously I was interested in what you all are working on as well I saw lots of people sharing what they were painting right now, which was uh, which was wonderful Uh, so I I hope everybody's getting some good hobby done Uh, okay Well gentlemen Shall we return to uh, shall we turn rather to I guess it's both turn and return To the topic of du jour which is uh, yes The maw tribes The fat boys the fat middle themselves. We've had some time now Uh, you know, we did our original show and I think for the most part we were fairly positive On the book with like understanding that there were some challenges in there Yeah, but we also said that it wasn't terrible, right? Like as opposed to the reaction to the internet, we said no, there's some play with these ogres Yep, so some time has passed right and we've had a couple months of Uh, we've had a couple months of you know Work on this right uh of seeing them play in tournaments of running against them ourselves uh, so What do we think now Kenny? I want to start with you because you're actually you've been rolling in underguts army, correct? I have yeah So what's your current take on them right now? At first I thought like, okay, this is kind of cool. They'll I just I picked that because I like the cannons I told my favorite models from the lion back and like when I was a fantasy army So I thought I would do that and you know overshooting. Maybe there's some staying power And I'm actually really happy that in the beginning it seemed like what I was hearing a lot was But people doing that that mall tribe, they'd be doing underguts But there's six in there and I mean I've seen them all except one being played Uh, and locally here in our senior pad a couple like uh friend of mine also started out with underguts And then he's going through like three or four different of the tribes and uh, I was I was happy to see how they developed There was a fear in the beginning that I thought you needed beast claw to do well and I didn't want to do beast claw It's there's like three and three in the mall tribes of the six and I didn't want to do that So it was it was I was happy to see as it's it's unfolded That there are still a lot of options that are viable and you don't have to rely on beast claw Those are very strong picks and that can be a very strong army But I was worried that it wouldn't be doable without them and I'm finding that that's You can do it without them just fine, but it's also pretty common to see a mixed in with a little piece here and there So they've definitely become way better than I thought I was I first I was like I have no expectation That's why like I'll take them to holy wars because I'll just have fun. I don't really care They probably not could have win anything and I didn't do I didn't do bad with them. Actually, I I did quite well so I've been surprised with them And I it's been interesting to see some of the picks on the internet and people talking about them and Their experiences and mine have been absolutely nothing like that, which has been Interesting like the leadbelts are still the mvps for me. I think they're I mean in an undergods army, they're better But even without I just I think it's a combat troop that has can shoot a fire hydrant to beat you With a fire hydrant or shoot cannons at you as a bonus, you know, it was great So that that's been a surprising thing from holy wars, but I walked out we talked about it afterwards and like yeah I think Leadbelts are like my mvps like they're really good. Yeah Absolutely. All right. I'll stop myself because I'll keep going for a while. No, it's fine. We're gonna we're gonna have plenty of Chance to go through it All right, uh, Tommy, what about you? They're scary Sure, they hit hard and like Those those monster trucks are for monster They are indeed Is that that it? That's that's your that's your this is the kind of insight insightful commentary What I would say is that like I think I underestimated the the raw Threat on objectives that the new role would present. Oh, yeah, sure especially with the monster trucks yep And I I think that it's like the threat there is real especially because Before I was like, yeah, that's 10 models But like when they come in they are removing models. Oh, yes, and usually quite a few Right, right. And so like 10 models suddenly becomes like a real scary number against 30 blocks Right Absolutely And like you have to kill it out in order for there to not be 10 models there And suddenly like in the grind that actually becomes like an issue Yeah, yeah so I'm uh I'm I would say I'm lucky in that I've got to both play ogres a fair amount because I ran that army that I painted When the book came out in a in a day Quite a bit and I also play against ogres. There's a player in our Our group who has been basically on the ogre train since they since the book came out and so More or less every week No, it's uh, it's it's uh, it's tom other tom and uh, so You know, like I've had actually quite a lot of chance to play and he's run multiple different lists over time Yeah, played with some different stuff. And so I've had I've had a really fun time playing against them Um, I found that they represent uh, a really interesting challenge One like we I so I've played against, um the uh Like the big 12er of you know The bowls of bowls of ogres, right many a time and I will say like that is a Glutons Sure. Why not? Uh It's whatever whatever their name is this this month. I'm sure they'll change it again in the future Um, what I'll say is you know, when you look at the amount of points that is It's an impressive amount of both damage, especially when buffed Especially if you hit the if you're if your slot machine hits Right, right. Yeah, like if they if they hit all the sevens Right, exactly when when the buffs land when that if that plus one came up Uh, if the butcher whatever is around You know, if they're rerolling wounds, you know, whatever the case is, right? Um Then they will suddenly be like explosively terrifyingly damage dealing and have a really shocking amount Of of just wounds they can take back because 48 wounds is 48 wounds, right? Um It's that's not a small amount of wounds to remove even on even on the save they're on which is not super impressive Okay Now that being said they are on that kind of Lower save So I have also seen them get straight up exploded if they get hit by something that is like a superhero, right? Yep, um, but if if the slot machine has hit if they're in the right position Uh You know, they it is terrifying. Absolutely Like there are armies I have that I'm like, I don't know what I I don't know what I do against that right I get hit by quite often and I know one of the The securities in the unit 12 aside from being like a point sufficient is that when it hits you when you show Your belly bop goes down When you have eight or more it's on a four up as opposed to a six up for the mortal wound So, I mean, yeah, you have a few more bodies to go through before you lose your Uh, you're improved belly bopping, but still I mean I I get hit with that pretty much like once or twice a week with that unit And I where it gets buffed up and I'm playing against them and man, it's rough like You you just you gotta hope that uh, you charge them multiple times and just do So you get lucky with order of activations and how you're striking them Because yeah, they don't do any run But I mean if you're playing also if you're using the realm rolls Which I really recommend you do and you have spells and everything you can get more buffs So I mean them and the realm of fire is like oh, it's nightmarish. Yeah, absolutely Yeah, uh, yes, if like you get plus one damage on that unit from the realm of fire or something. Yeah, forget about it like that's Good all that rage from you know ogre high school and gym class when they didn't get much tension didn't get picked And then they get out in the battlefield. They're all ready to go the spatties are angry and you're hungry I think this is an awesome art This is they're just so much fun to just for a role play with your army to shout stupid things at your opponent or people around you No, I agree I think this is a fun army to play and to play against I've never had like I said, I've played this army You know many weeks of like not every week But many of the weeks out of since the book came out And it that player often shows up and is often taking part in the games And I've never been angry about being across from it Right Like it's always it always is fun and challenging and fair is what it feels like to play against right like yep That's what it does. It hits you real hard. It's an eminently fair army Uh as a note by the way, they're right now According to lv stats mall tribes is on a 53.1 percent win ratio Which is statistically equivalent to flesh eater courts How about that? Yeah That's uh, that's pretty hot Uh in in the recent stat breakdown. So that's I mean that's like ogre fire island hot. Yeah, indeed indeed Uh, so I think that's good. You mentioned like the the ogre mortal wound charge the belly bop as you call it, right? Uh, the ogre charge. Yes Uh, I will also say I've been impressed by just how dangerous that is When you get multi charges Even if it's just like if a big monster comes in and then a couple darts charge in And and they're all landing decent ish charges, right sevens eight nines something like that The amount of mortal wounds that just happen there is like, oh, okay Cool, that was a lot of damage before we even started the fight, right before that big monster even started to swing Uh So like having like little lead belcher darts that can multi charge or just ogre chaff blocks of Uh of glutton's or or whatever it is or just other characters charging in, you know, any of those things, right? The iron blasters come in. I think ogres are I found that I think they work pretty well as msu too I know that I see the desire to get big units and you know get the points cost for the point break with the The gluts, but I think I think the msu style is pretty effective also for them For the billy bop reason is a big part of that too. Yeah I mean, we've seen lots of play with the monster truck side. I don't want to neglect the monster truck side of this uh the monster truck side of this is terrifying The like you mentioned the cap tom of them counting as 10 and having it be really important The number of times that just ogres counting as two has mattered is shocking to me Right when just like just the reality that their characters can auto steal objectives from your characters. Yep. Yep, right They just go up and you're just like Right like they just took it from you by wandering near Yeah, right because they count as two It's a big deal Right, um oftentimes losing an objective for one turn. That's the game That's the game right there Right Yeah, um So that right there is potent, but the the the so my my regular ogre player very frequently has Either a murder horn or a crunch horn or both Okay, so the murder horn is obviously running in boulder head And using The black clatter horn to put yourself on twos and just be a beast of utter destruction Yep, and the the crunch horn is usually carries the ethereal amulet, right? Yeah And has metal cruncher And the the number of things that that guy can crunch Because like the four up it's shocking how often he can crunch stuff Yep, and by the way the things that are on a five up He can just actually kill in combat because they don't actually have the safe to stop him That those doesn't really need to worry about right So those two beasties I have just proven so Difficult to deal with Um the ethereal crunch horn if you don't have a high amount of like mortal wound dealing I mean he is just a a a monster now, sir. They're sure there is some stuff that can just pick him up Right. Yep But it's not a common occurrence That thing is Is as close to made of of of of steel as you get in this game, right? True Being a three at five. I think I really felt Filthy like when I when I started running one and preparing for holy wars And I finally out of won the list. I felt dirty Like the thing is just like the thing is so killy like it's uh Foreign points well, it's definitely it's okay. It's okay. Kenny. You're allowed to win So my fortune cookie said yeah, so you're allowed to win Yeah, absolutely So but I don't want to underestimate other stone horns too like the six monster trucks with just having regular guys Again the charging hitting on a four up counting as 10 models until they're removed Like there's gas in that tank as well I think the big question in my mind because I've only I've only seen I'm really like I think two or three times in the table have I played against them since the book came out Three times Is mournfang. I don't know what to make of them yet The middle ground troops. They don't have the big charge. They still just We made joe pick him up before he got to use him, didn't we? Yeah, correct. Well, he got unlucky there. Yeah, he got keepered. Are they on force? I keepered. Yeah, are there are there saves on force? Uh, oh are the you're saying is there is the is the Is there save a four up the mournfang? That's a good question. I don't know off the top of my head Yes, they are they're four up. There you go I I've encountered them before I fought against them and Uh, I it was it's the one where you you hugged the side of the table and you can charge if you're within 12 inches Yeah, I don't know it seemed like it might be dangerous, but every time I got hit by them I mean it could just been someone's luck to it just didn't really seem that damaging like I was I'm still picking them. I think from like fantasy days when like when they were the first monsters cab to came out You're like, oh god And now when I see I'm not that worried about them, but they do have some mobility Uh, but I've also found it's easy to kind of block them off if you try Yeah Yeah, I'm really of I I'm really unsure about them because they're you know, it's six wounds on a four up save obviously for for per per mournfang, right and you know You're getting two of them for 140. So it's 12 wounds for 140 points. It's not fantastic honestly um I don't I don't know I'm Kind of interested in them like Sometimes but it just I have I've seen them underperform a lot. They're the only question mark I still have in this whole army to be completely honest Um, I think I formulated my opinions on everything else and my opinion on everything else goes You know something like this. I think at a high level I would say it like this. I love everything stone horn I dislike all of the priests and find their prayers to be worthless Right like thunder tusks and the general prayer stuff just doesn't right doesn't do anything anymore Uh, but all the stone horn stuff is great uh the I I like the butcher and the slaughter master though. You can run without them Um, I love the regular ogres. I I really love iron guts Uh, lead belters are good as darts and mobile chaff is how I like them. Yep. Uh, the Uh, and the big monster trucks are scary as I'll get out Right like that would be if I oh and the hunters and the cats are a superstar almost every game Have any of you guys played or played against gorgers? Nope No, I know the my my player doesn't own any gorgers because they're like a really weird model That you have to they're like fine cast aren't they still? Yeah, or metal Or metal I guess yes I've never played against a gorge or not even once um They It's weird because like they can reroll their charges and they're 80 points So like I've been wrestling before I redid the list and I'm probably gonna do it again before it Up to kind of a couple times But it's it's the cost of two of a single like a Call them darts of the lead belters So I don't know it's kind of like back and forth like for a shooting army Kind of it's nice to have something be able to go in the back and ambush But I think the downside is you have to ambush you have to go in turn one And yeah, I can reroll your charges and everything, but I feel like there's always the question of do you put one down? Or do you put a unit of two or three? Uh, you know, I think it's more common to see the singles Uh, because you know you can go a different way different targets, but at the same time is like well How many are effective or you know if I just putting on the table was it doing a task or is it 80 points thrown away? So I don't know. I haven't found that balance yet with them. Sure, but um, I guess I do shock opponents because they're like, what is that thing? I don't know what that is Like oh here's this model used to have so yeah, I guess people don't know about them. So that's No, it's a good call. I I literally forgot all about them that they even exist I mean I also when I would take them over frost sabers with a hunter No, I wouldn't I agree with uh We said they're more expensive man's swine Yeah, I think that I think they were done like 60 or even 50. That'd be one thing but 80 points. I don't know Yeah, I I agree. Uh, what I will say is like Somebody had mentioned the fire belly like what about the fire belly yeti's man-eaters things. I didn't mention Um, so let's get into some let's get into some of the more less used units. That'll be a fun thing to explore Let like you you kicked it off with the gorger My vote on the gorger is no not worth it in the end. Like it's just it's not he doesn't fill any role I don't think he's worth it. Now. Maybe somebody will shock me or have a different opinion But that's my take on him anybody anybody back in gorgers here I mean, I just don't know what he's doing Yeah, I agree jump size like surprise Sure, it's situation like if you if you need to pull somebody in the back if they leave a gap or If the opportunity's there and you can make it work on turn one, that's awesome. They can do work, but if not then He's just kind of thrown away and I don't know I mean First time I use if I forgot to even use them like said to go on turn one to ambush like oh, yeah My guy. Yeah, I've done that. So I I don't know. I think if they were cheaper then Then it'd be worth trying them out, but um, yeah for now. I don't know It's it's only has a certain role and that role is becoming less Uh, less desirable as it goes on too. Sure I mean when I when I think about it I just think like no hunter and cats are superstars Because they come in and they drop a charge like it's nobody's business and I can fit them in a skull really easy And I love the skull as your battalion pickup Because it's just the easy way to get a battalion in there when you don't have any other battalion you want And it's the it's get you that second artifact get you that bonus command point, which you're always hungry for intended Yep, right Uh, and and it's just like There if you make the ice brow hunter for the general then the frost sabers are even counting as battle line, right? Like it's just it's doing it's multitasking so much Right and it's cheap as dirt. You're getting four cats for that one gorger Yeah Yeah, and and I mean those cats to be fair can like do work especially against lightly armored targets Now they die to a stiff breeze because they're dumb dumps on a six up but But nonetheless, I've seen cats do plenty of work plenty of times especially on like explode exposed characters or Bringing them in in like turn three when things are thinner, right? Yep Because they can just pop up anywhere. It's not like you have to walk in from a board edge They just come in charge and they're much better. Yeah Like I definitely back the hunters and the cats Uh, I am I am a big big big stand for them All right Other other lightly used units things we don't often talk about and probably didn't dig into as much Talk about yetis Yetis. Yeah, what do we think about yetis? Uh, so so let's let's get let's lay down the basics. Okay. How are you gonna? You get three yetis for 110 points And they're only battle line if your general is on a thunder tusk. So if he's on the bad mount Sure Sure. Okay. So there we go. That's the basics. All right. So back to it How are you acquiring these models? Are you buying them? Like I assume you're buying either the Right actual fine cast yetis or you're using any of the many wonderful third party versions of yetis or You're taking regular ogres and putting big fur coat and green stuffing big fur coats on them and covering in snow Oh, like ogre pimps. Yes, that'd be nice. Okay, my I might be interested Like it in light of that like the pimp squad Okay, you know you have my attention Now again assuming yetis one of their special abilities does activate by having a thunder tusk, which as we've said No, uh, I generally don't back thunder tusks, right? um They they walk around with a neg one to hit you're getting you are getting 12 wounds for your 120 points But that's on a six up save Right, but they do move nine inches And they have the traditional six inch pile in 110 points Yeah, this is gonna thank you. Uh, I think that if you did I get the points wrong? Uh, I'm right 110 Yeah If If you went all in on them I'm down If that was like your strat. Yeah, you're going if you're going hard yeti. Yeah, like, uh Three max size units Okay No, I like Why what's your what's your plan there? um I mean Each each pack of three has an 18 damage cap Uh, it's gonna average six damage, uh Six damage at neg one rend Base they have run in charge So you could get them across the table at, uh, 15 inch move base Um, and then a charge on top of that um They don't technically get the movement buff of the hungry stuff. Do they? What oh the the yetis Yeah, uh, no, they're not over no because they get the the frost like the hurt Do they even get the blizzard stuff or they don't get that either? Are you asking like are that do they get the everwinter stuff? No, they're miss claw Yeah So what what well, I I'm trying to remember what they're what their ability is then They can pile in six inches which is tempting Allegiance ability. Sorry. Like what's their associated? What what allegiance ability are they benefiting for or nothing? Oh, are you asking just in the generic allegiance abilities? Yeah, what are they benefiting from right? So they're not an ogre or a rhinox, okay? So they don't get trampling charge, right? They do have the grasp of the everwinter that was your question about that because they are beast claw rarity units, right? Yep, um, they do not get might makes right because they are not an ogre unit or an ogre monster. Yep. Okay Yeah, uh, I mean, I don't know. They'd be a fun thousand point army. That's what I'm gonna say Okay. Yeah, I mean part of the problem is honestly that they are I mean you're you put your your Um Finger on a good point there, which is that they do miss out on a lot of the allegiance abilities of the army Right. Yep And you know, they get the least interesting one. It's not that like The the breath of the everwinter thing or whatever it's called is is fine enough It's fine enough on things that are going to get stuck in It's just fine. So like the the stone horns Uh, especially like your ethereal stone horn I've seen that thing do wounds plenty of times because turn 3 4 5 if they're stuck into stuff and just grinding to win on an objective, right? Um, tossing a couple extra mortal wounds is fine when you've got a 50 60 70 chance of it happening as the game goes on, right? Yep. Um, just to this last weekend, uh, I had uh, my ogre opponent had two beast claw rator units in combat And killed the thing in his hero phase that they were fighting which freed them up to then move and charge later And then he went and took another objective, right? Yep, uh in turn four. I mean you can't bank on that, but it does happen No, but I mean rolling a four or less twice is not exactly the most statistically unlikely thing to happen You know, it's not it's you're not that's not exactly double sixes or anything, you know, right? Yeah Yeah, I mean they're fine. I think that they might be a fun like niche army I don't think that they're hyper competitive But like I could I could see doing like a heavy yeti bill at a thousand points Okay, just for fun like a fun team thing Yeah, like a fun team thing I could totally do that and I think that they would be perfectly competitive in that type of environment. Okay All right, yeah Especially if you only do like one pack of them and then mix them up with some of the other tools Um, I think that they could be a fun, uh fun tool Yep I don't have it anymore. I used to have 18 Wow building a hoard of yetis and fantasy Because apparently no one ever seen it Then I got them and then they're gone. There it is. I don't know any I'm not really any Rush to get any models for those. Sure Okay Yeah, let's talk about man-eaters The unit I want to love more than anything because they've got like they got the coolest story They've got cool like some of their their models are really old, but they're still honestly pretty amazing all the different manager models that are out there Uh So what let's talk about the basics of man-eaters three in a unit 180 points fast It's like that hurts Still four wounds each on a five up save, you know, they are ogres obviously and all that so they benefit from all the ogre stuff Um, they have a fairly Average ish ranged attack, you know, threes and threes neg one d three damage with their pistols and throwing stars And their main attack is their slicers and bashers four attacks threes and threes neg one two damage each So they have a sort of very basic ogre attack, right? But um But with rend so okay Uh And then obviously they've got there been there done that where you can pick a special ability Which the thing you're going to pick most of the time is striders where the unit can run in charge All right Yes, yeah, that's the one I definitely think this is going to get a points drop I agree like if if anything Well gorges I think needs to but I feel like this is definitely going to get a point drop because these models are great But if you look at the they're like the one I know there's different models and a few of them have sold out like the brad got spin one and in gold bag Man-eater sold out But like these are like the ones that weren't selling out like all the other units were selling out for a long time But not these and they are awesome models and if you even do like a like a hero or an over from a different model line Or different company and you want to use it in, you know Man-eaters a good place to bring that ogre in Yeah, or you know I got some female ogres from the It was a kickstarter the uh, atlantis one that they did and yeah I mean those those fit in pretty nicely there I mean because like the the scale is pretty similar so you can tie them all together I just think it's a shame like uh, I I tried using them once and they I did the run charge thing because like maybe they can go get an objective or or tie up a shooting unit, but Yeah, they just they were very um Not even lackluster that they just they were they were disappointing I agree The balloon was deflating. I was like oh if they were four plus save Yeah, that would be if they were four plus save and had like an option And they're been there done that to go to like a three up in melee when melee only Okay Die, I would be I would be repping these guys hard. I'd be like oh well, okay Now a horse of a different color all of a sudden, right? They would have a purpose then. Yeah They would be a mobile anvil, but that's not what they are. No, that's just the problem They die so easy every time I've used them. They just they just die so easy And it's really unfortunate because this is Arguably the unit with the best like utility Like from a design like a hobby standpoint Yeah, because you could just convert these guys and like any way you want you can go nuts with them. It's super fun Yeah, they're fun to paint I just I I did kind of wonder when they came out the companion. I was like you're taking A model range. That's so vast, you know, you're so all these different character models and putting them together and Yes, they like so the ninja stars are included in there where there's only the one ninja I know it just felt like they they crammed everything together, but It just it was disappointing. So from a a collector and modeler challenge, I would like to see them Switched up a little bit Yeah, I like to see them on tables. I guess I I I totally Identify with that. Yeah, I mean if they're not if the assuming the scroll doesn't change then something like I don't know. What's the appropriate amount here 140 150 Something like that probably right for their costs That's probably more like at least you're 180 right now. They're just so outside the box 140 would be okay. Yeah, I'd be okay with 140 Like that would make them the same as mournfang like they'd have the same number of of They'd have the same wound step point ratio, right? But without the ability to ever be battle line right mournfang can become battle line uh and You know without the extreme mobility I spell out. I don't know the mournfang have extreme mobility, but they're faster, you know, so whatever The run in charge should probably about equal out. Let's put it that way. It's fine. Yeah That feels more equivalent. That's what I'm saying, right? Certainly feels better than 180. Let me say that Yeah Uh, one more I want to touch on here and then we'll then we'll get into some other stuff Let's talk about fire bellies. Yes, there you go. Okay. All right So you're repping the tell me what you like about fire bellies. Kenny. Why do you like the fire bellies? All right, well, you put the model aside because I I love the model and I think it's one of the but Okay, I'm a fan. Um, the breath attack When you remember that it's there and you actually get to use it can be, you know, somewhat decent But um, it's you know, 120 points. They're a wizard Uh, and so their spells I they have uh, there's three spells you can get are casting five six and eight So I I think the spells are okay, but you know, eight one like the delay mash is kind of hard to get off But when you're in when you're using uh realms and stuff and you have access to more spells And that's another spellcaster you got there. No chance to get one of those big spells out Uh, but I just that spell too that they have seems really kind of dumb But when you get it to go off it, it can actually be pretty decent And it's another like single dart to do a belly bop I don't was it my game with you or something? I hit him. I hit somebody It was Patrick Reynolds, but I hit him and I hit him like an 11 on the charge Which he has, you know above average, but it was just the impact of more single ogre units that could call onto somebody So I mean spellcaster, uh, you know, that's not horrible in combat. He's not going to deal much damage But like, you know, the belly bop's pretty good um One of the hero for the beacon especially too because a lot of these the sub factions require like I don't know you call like a beacon model the hero that you know play within the hero Sure. So I mean for the different tribes I think it's good too to have cheap ogre heroes that you kind of need So, you know, this one's he's 120. It's cheaper than a slaughter master or a butcher Okay, right on yes. He that's that's true. He is 20 points cheaper Tom any thoughts on the fire belly? Got it. That's that's a pass on him All right, tom. Let me ask you this question hard pass dog Okay, that's fair. Let's say he's 100 points. Is he interesting to you there? If he's there basically if he becomes the cheapest ogre hero Yes Yes, right because that's what it would make him. He'd be 20 points cheaper than the hunter And to me that actually feels appropriate for him. Okay, I think so No, I'm interested then like you would have my attention. Yeah, let me tell you Let me defend 100 points to this guy to everybody. I think at 100 he becomes an interesting player Yeah, because right now at 120 he's competing with the hunter and he's only 20 points off a butcher or a slaughter master And that's not enough right Nope I point twice. He's also competing with an iron blaster a scrap launcher make of that what you will but Uh, those are just things of equivalent points Um At 100 points, he becomes an interesting cheaper option that's sort of halfway between sort of the really cheap stuff of the army and this Uh, I think that you know, he is like when you look at him, he's a seven wound hero with a five up save Yes, he's a spellcaster, but he has no nothing special. He can cast a spell and his spell required to do anything like the spell he comes with Requires a melee presence like he has to go get into it, right? So To me now that's not the same not that's not true for depending on the spell you select out of his lore, but whatever Um, I just feel like there's real potential there But he just needs to be cheaper cheaper so that you feel less bad when he gets up there and dies Which is what's going to happen, right? That's what's going to happen. Yeah and like If he was if he was at 100 points I'd be like, okay. Well now that he's cheaper than everything else. I can actually see the argument No, 100 is good too. I also, I mean, I don't know how often you found but I saw mogre players and this is a question for the chat But there's a do you stay by your mall pot or not? Do you advance forward? I know that that varies person to person in game to game But I like because some scenarios you need that we need a wizard to capture objective or to get better benefit from objective So, I mean that's situational, but you know cheaper hero to go forward and they can Uh, sometimes you have I for the underguts I usually put my last keg on him if I don't have a tire and haven't come over and throw that and he's kind of Dennis that It just depends really I think I don't really ever see them. I mean I use them. I use I have like you gonna listen to them in there uh I don't know. I think it kind of catches people out sometimes because they like oh a firebelly and they forget he has a breath weapon Right. I mean at the most it's what D3 mortal wounds D3. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I mean it's Sometimes it's a little bit of extra pop, but I mean it's another another chance to charge and do a belly bump and It's another source of more wounds. I guess I break it down and think of it like that Yeah, I mean you can never underrate a source of mortal wounds mortal wounds or mortal wounds They are really good like that's what they do they they crack things and and can you know be pretty good to have at your disposal So sure, it's just right now. He doesn't compete at the point at the point levels. Yeah, that's all I'd say 100 points would be nice Yeah, yep. I think at 100 he would he would be you'd actually see him show up in some lists That would be my argument not every list. He doesn't become an auto include I exist That's right. That's right. You don't let you be Witness me. All right firebelly lies matter Or they're too short Indeed Okay, so I think that's a good like unit breakdown of the of the lesser used units Yeah, um All right, excellent so the uh The next thing I want to talk about is let's let's just quickly revisit our Initial discussion on the various tribes Sure So originally we had talked about basically basically, okay boulderhead and blood gullet being the two tribes that stand out with under guts being like a Okay, you know, it's it's there right and and the rest are just like Also included in this book for reasons we can't quite figure out, right? Uh, do we stand behind that still has anything you've seen changed your opinion of that? I You know the The blood gullet I don't really see that much anymore in the beginning. I did sure it was it was all the rage at the beginning, right? Yeah, it's again when this book came out you just go on paper like it was what's you know What's gonna be good here? Uh, the under guts. I think have have done okay I'm glad to see them like when I see coverage of other events that they're there I was worried at the beginning because I thought it seemed like everyone's gonna play that I'm like great I'm gonna have the same memories everybody else, uh, but you know, let's just move it around but I mean the Thunder bellies or Oh the boulder head I don't know that that one. I see quite a lot and that's uh, you know, monster trucks. I mean, that's that's terrifying It is indeed terrifying. I feel it's kind of shifted from now. It's page like the double page spread page is 84 85 It's kind of where I'm sitting right now, but that's just me personally and from what I see Everyone see is different. I don't know if you guys have a lot of overplayers in the area We have more than I thought we would have It is a fun army to collect and it's a relatively easy army to collect too Like we said that originally and I stand behind it like this is a good starter army If somebody was looking to get in the game, yeah, exactly I'd be like, well, are you interested in ogres because if so Look at that army. Does that appeal to you because this is a good army to start with cost wise play wise experience wise Yeah, like on every say model wise frankly Yeah, like in on on every box. I would tick of good starter armies This one is is a success Yep I would agree with that I would also state by the way in in llv's most recent stats This is the third most represented faction in the meta Is it really? Yes, it is Something like let's call it till the 6.4 percent Because I don't remember the a lot of people I had the armies and then they could pick up the start collecting box And the piece called was a good way to get into it So, yeah Yeah, I think the book made more than it made the guthbusters viable. It wasn't just the beast call book anymore. Right, right Tom any thoughts? Do you agree? Those are still the three that are that are in this question Yeah, like I think that the I still think that there's gas in the blood boiling They're quite gassy Uh, that's a bold statement. Yeah, I mean I've seen people try to make winter bite work and it just doesn't I just I can't get behind it I I think the other two aren't even on in the conversation in my estimation What I'll say is I think the tide is definitely shifted over to boulderhead As we want to discuss the one you take even when you have only half your army in monster trucks Yeah, you just it just punches monster trucks up so high Right, I feel like a lot of people were going to do meat fist and I saw a lot of people that painted At like red right fist and then not use that anymore. So now they're they're working into the narratives Of course Meat fist was never good. I don't know what people were thinking there, but there we go. Okay Uh, oh, so there's a question here. What about the iron blaster versus the scrap launcher? Well in our original show We had a big discussion of iron blaster versus scrap launcher like we And I convinced vince that there's gas in the in the scrap launchers, which I still stand behind I I I agree scrap launcher better than uh And uh scrap launcher better than iron blaster. Yes, I stay I I I agree tom. I'm with that Oh Sorry, man I guess it just depends having having one or two maybe not so big if you're doing like the junk mob then Yeah, yeah the scrap launchers Yeah, you got to be junk mob if you're going scrap launchers like you're you're doing It's just kind of like uh, but I don't know I'm working. I mean I did the iron underguts because I like the iron blasters and this is the first time I've tried using four of them Let me know they're decent But I think they're I've seen that they're not as good outside of the underguts If you do the underguts like you're going all in. Yeah, they're really good. Um outside. They just kind of seem like Uh, you can get one or two even and like I don't really sure what to do with these What I mean, you can still charge a minute things. They still have impact hits. They're not horrible But yeah, they they I think like with both of those they need to be with their respective battalion or I'm all tribe. Yep. Sure. No, that's fair Uh So Okay, so do you have more details? Why do I love the junk mob? What what what and so and specifically the scrap launcher Okay, so the junk mob battalion is one to three units of noblars and one to two scrap launchers You're going to take one unit of noblars at men, which is 100 points and you're going to take two scrap launchers which are 120 right And What this does is add one to the attacks characteristic of the piles of old scrap used by any noblar scrap launchers from the battalion While they're within three inches of any noblar units that have 20 or more models, right? So there you go. That's what you're going to do You're going to basically hide the noblars back there with scrap launchers And then you're going to go nuts with firing those things So the scrap launchers so that little cluster is going to hold an objective or probably two objectives because like if they're like 16 inches apart or whatever 14 inches, right? No, you could spread out, but let's yeah 218 you can put like the mob in the middle Like edging into the two objectives with the two things and each one and each of the objectives Within six inches and then they can hold two objectives in the back field and still shoot right So and the trick with the scrap launchers is so scrap launchers have three attacks with their piles of old scrap base goes to four In junk mob, right because plus one attack On threes and fours no rend and if you target a unit that has 10 or more models Then your damage becomes d6 So it's basically a crawler Yeah, yeah, yeah, like it's it's it's it's a low rent crawler. You're not wrong Like it's a low rent more tech crawler, right? Like this is it's the junk version of it, right? But that's what you're doing. You're just fishing out there. You're throwing out eight attacks out of these two scrap launchers, right That uh that hit on threes wound on fours No, rend and do d6 damage like you're just literally throwing it out there and you know trying to to damage Units that have 10 or more. So your your prime targets are just any masked unit got it four went through Okay, five d6. Let's see what happens, right? You know, right through out of these two ones Uh, three d6. Let's see what happens. It's just a lot of dice to roll Yeah, um So, yeah, um Like I I I love me the idea of a junk bob. It is again, it's a relatively cheap battalion to work in as well Um cost wise it's not expensive to get into your army So you can still actually have just like a ton of other points to do other stuff with this that the the the junk bob Doesn't need to be your strat Right. No, it's like an ancillary thing that you have on the side. It's utility Uh that you can use in addition to the rest of the stuff that's out there, right exactly. Yep I'm not doing it because I don't want to paint the models, but I think that there's something there That's perfectly fair Um, so there you go. That's uh, so and in my opinion. No, that doesn't go in an all nobler army You don't go crazy. You literally just you build your junk mob like that Basically at men's and it's this weird range threat that's there and then you mix in maybe like ab monster truck And like I would still play it in boulder head probably or whatever Maybe a monster truck or two and then some some ogre's season to taste Right. Um, and and that's my list, right? Um, you could still have a skull in there too, by the way, you could actually be a double battalion It's cheap enough. You can get away with that Uh, and and I think that's actually a really nice mix Um, I think against certain armies That's it's a scary thing to suddenly be putting off that many shots in the air that just Have a chance to do d6 damage, right? Yeah, a little word busting. Sure. Absolutely anybody If you're feeling especially saucy, you could always uh You could always hit one of the scrap launchers with the re-roll ones on the hits. Why not if you got a command point That's true. Yeah, it's it's there. It's a thing you can do Um, you got to have plenty of command points to power that but you can do it if you really wanted to um, okay So, uh, let's talk about we mentioned skull. We mentioned junk mob. Let's talk about some other battalions Okay We saw a lot in the beginning. We saw a lot of like gormand, right people run in the slaughter master and that thing I've seen less of that recently. Okay. I still see it. Don't get me wrong. It still shows up It's not like it's not like people went. Oh, no, that's bad. I don't think so I think I just see less of it right I've started dropping it because it seemed like I'll want a battalion for this and this and then look I mean, that's why I just did it for the list for a depth of gun too. Like I don't need this here I can just buy a command point. I don't really need the extra artifact. Like there's just points wasted. So, yeah, yeah, I feel like um The more I play and more I play around ogres Um, I feel like I since the book has come out, I've gotten a very good exposure to the different battalions. I think I've played Uh, or played against almost all of them Not the mega battalions, but the ones that are like the four that are there No, they're actually playable in 2k. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah I guess you could really do that. Yes. I I don't know. They're uh Yeah It's just kind of hard sometimes the points like you really you just have to build the list, right? Like because uh Things are pretty expensive in the army. Just You know, sometimes you don't have 120 or 140 points. It's been great. Great Yep, no checks off So I think the one that we want to add into the discussion that we didn't really talk about last time And I think we kind of wrote it off But but there's been some people playing it who have who've really turned around my opinion on it Okay, is the url bad Okay, okay Yep, so the url bad is 140 points It requires a husk guard on stone horn, which is you know, look, let's be honest. That's a tax Okay Um, I am not a big fan of the husk guard on stone horn Right, but I also don't hate him like it's still a stone horn Right, he still has his rock hard horns and it's crushing hooves. It's fine. It's fine. He's fine, right? He's fine He can buff your you know mooring fang and so on and so forth. He's fine He's taxi, but fine. Okay But as well it has one to three stone horn beast riders And two to four mooring fang packs Okay, is what you're taking here And obviously that fills out your battle line, right? Like your battle line is fine through combinations of that. Yeah Yep So you can get more stone horn beast riders, which is ultimately what you know, that's part of your monster truck plan, right? Yep And the the ability here is if the unmodified hit roll For an attack made with a melee weapon used by a model from this battalion is a six That attack inflicts one mortal wound on the target in addition to any normal damage I think that's actually a really good ability Right because these guys make a lot of attacks a lot of different attacks Spice it in some more mortal wounds. So you're charging for mortal wounds The start of your hero phase you're triggering mortal wounds and now all your attacks can trigger mortal wounds, right? I mean Tom you played an attrition army that was all about never doing anything except triggering mortal wounds for a long time And we're very successful at it, right? This isn't that was defensively you were going for a defensive kickback strategy This is an offensive mortal wound splash strategy But my point is it's still I think valid. You're saying it's viable and that's and it's already like the key I think what makes us So tempting is that it's in an army that's already splashing a bunch of damage Yep, and so this is just pushing the high damage things higher I yeah, exactly. Yes. I think that's exactly right Um, and so okay, I can see it. Yeah, and to me this Cool, this also justifies. I think mournfang like in this position. I like them. I'd still probably run two min packs Yeah, right Uh, I don't know that I don't want to spend any more than that. I'm not all in on like a mournfang strat In any way here Um, but like let's let's get our head around the points there. Okay, so we can just talk that through So the huskard on stonehorn is 320 Yep The stonehorn beast riders, which are obviously also battle line if your general's a beast collaborator, right or is 300 each Okay And your mournfang packs are 140. So you need two of those right, so That's what you're looking at all in more than a thousand points of this thing But you can build out from there, right? You could have if you want all stonehorn beast riders cool They can all fit in this one drop Right, right Obviously you can still lay your frost lord on stonehorn on top of this And I think that's a perfectly fine addition, right? You're pushing it up um, you could also Uh, this battalion itself the url bads 140 points There is also a build where you can have this and a skull Yep, all right Uh, so that gets quite expensive. You're dropping 240 points in in battalions at that point So it's it's real expensive. You're very min on the skull, but you could desperate right So there's options here I typically see this when people are getting Like the start clicking box they get like one or like two or three of those to start an army and this is a good fit for that Yes outside of it. I don't I remember seeing it too when The book came out and then we started like seeing the tournament list from around the world and and it was in there a lot And it's it's been on the decline. So I don't know I guess it's kind of falling out of favor. Sure I mean, I'll say it's not perfect, right, but I think it's good. Like I think it has gas But I think it's tough. Like I would love it if the I mean the the if if that huskard on stonehorn was A frost lord on stone which I know none of the cards. They're all they're all huskards, right? Because you have to Stupidly you have to go all the way up to the mega impossible mega battalion to get a frost lord on stonehorn Which is just I don't get it. Why Why I asked him to stop printing them a long time ago Well, I don't I like the presence of the mega battalions. I just hate when they do silly crap like that Okay Like it's silly that there's no battalion that's accessible where you can't take a frost lord on stonehorn one of the like Obvious generals of this army right um So I don't know that would make it perfect for me I think you'd see this thing left and right as it is. I think it's it's got gas But it's not it's you know, you gotta be aware of the tax Sure So That being said, there's no reason that the huskard can't still do plenty of work Right, like especially if he's he's you make the frost lord on stonehorn your murder horn You make the huskard your your crunch horn. Yeah, right? Yeah Yeah I know a thousand point our reason we had some events where there's uh Like two or three was like three three models like they have like the frost lord and the two Uh stonehorn the writers like oh my god I mean Yeah, ogres. I think ogres and trolls, but ogres do well in like team games thousand point games Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah I agree with that Okay, cool. I'm trying to bring some fatty life to this. No, I I agree role playing. Look. I'm in this unflattering angle I look like that I have like six extra chins in this angle Nice You're role playing ogres. Well, I could you're right Sure Yes, uh Okay, so mogwai said can we just get another art page instead of mega battalions? That would be great. I think that's much better spent Sure. I I have no problem with that So What's interesting to me about ogres as they stand right now? Let's talk about where this army goes in the future. Okay, like let's talk about its general What we've seen to be its general strength and weaknesses This would be a nice transition into our sort of summary thoughts on it right in this revisit And where we think it should could go So we've talked a little bit about Some of the points changes we'd like to see Yeah, and I think those are all good. I hope to see that every it's all it's always sharpening the knife We're gonna have lots of opportunities for points changes come the summer ghp Right because Because we've had so many new armies injected into the mix Gosh, okay. I can't even imagine what that rebounding that points. You're bouncing looks like sure as a side note I really hope that this is the ghp where we get to see some scaven points come down Uh, what I mean by that is not any of the stuff that's gone up needs to come back down That's not before you try to string me up audience Yeah, like I've I've been super fine with all the upward points adjustments that have happened in scaven I think they're great What's that? You're saying like doom wheel bring doom wheel then sure or like rat ogre's The stuff that nobody ever uses the problem with an army that has a lot of attention on it with things that are obviously under pointed and bent Is that only those get talked about and then fixed which i'm fine with good fix that stuff great Let's have that happen. Yes. A plus. That's our highest priority. That's our highest sev issue Cool. Cool. Great. But like Can rat ogre's please be cheaper now? That would be wonderful. Thank you They're garbage It just makes me sad You know just like can the other stuff can I get like a discount on some things that are bad that I would like to run Just for fun. Thank you very much. It won't make them good But at least they'll be a little bit more, you know playable at any rate So we've talked about that And I I think we'll see some of that same stuff like we mentioned the fire belly all that kind of thing, right So does do any points need to go up? That's the question I'll say no. I don't think any points in this army need to go up I don't know I think that's a bold statement. How about you Kenny? I can see I can see um the argument I guess for the frost The stone the frost or the stone horn, but I think you know for points. I mean that that's a that's a giant chunk Uh, no, I I don't I don't know. I guess because There's a lot of things you don't ever see. I don't know if they need to go up really I'm gonna say something controversial. Okay. Good What happens But or let me ask a question. Let's do it that this way. What happens if all Uh horde discounts disappear Why would you think all horde discounts are going to disappear? I'm just asking. Oh sure if they do Yeah, what happens? Do do uh, do uh ogre or glutton stay the same? So instead of being 12 for 400 they'd be 12 for 480. That's what you're asking, right? Or do they need to come down? Well, that's the question That's something I can see. Yeah, this is one thing that pops to mind. I guess you could The gluttons. I mean, I I know I I typically see them in 12 because of the discount Right, right. Like I don't see them not in 12s. Like if they're on the table, they're in 12s And so I mean, I guess if that price changes I don't know. I maybe they wouldn't be necessarily like that because you maybe you see more of the iron guts out there When you see something Only occur like when there's options and you only see it ever occur one way often. That's a flag That there might be like an issue And I don't know that that's the case here. So don't don't misunderstand me. I just I'm that's what I'm asking I I you know, we've seen them move away from some horde benefits like some horde discounts Sure, uh, could they You know, could things get rebalanced around removing horde discounts? And if so, what happens to something like the the Out of these guys, that's all I'm asking. Yeah, sure. So let's walk down this theoretical road agreeing that I don't think that's going to happen Like the serif on don't have a lot of horde discounts, but neither do the ogres And I think that's I think they've been more sparing with them, which by the way is how they should have been the whole time Sure Like some armies in the middle there They were just throwing it at everything right like everything you hoard it up you get a to get a discount No, stop that right that was sure if it should be for a very particular few units in the army where they're meant to be used Where they're meant to be used in these big groups right um Okay, so in a world where they they let's so let's just walk down this theoretical in a world Where there's no more horde discount? Oh, there would be a ton of points rebalancing you need to do obviously Uh, but yeah, I would push them to 110 so you'd split the difference. Okay All right, so it'd be 440 for a full pack Yeah That's the right answer You need like the whole movie in how like in a world correct. Yes more horde discounts Yes, I was doing movie guys. It would be a future of war hammer. Yes. I don't see that happening, but that's what I would see 100 points Yeah I don't disagree. Uh Would you think we'd see him in in less than 12s? Do you think we'd see nines because of the charge? benefit Yeah, I think you would Probably but that's hard to predict. There's a lot of cross incentives there because other points would move too in that world, right? theoretically So it's hard to say what what the outcome of that would be um What do we want to see for the future in this army? We've seen that they're willing to expand armies in white dwarf, right night honk got the treatment slanesh got the treatment Most recently iron jaws got the treatment, right? Yeah, so So so ogres get their own white dwarf article, right? Yep, uh subscribers. I don't get it till the 30th of the month, but What would be in it? Sure. Let's just imagine. Let's just imagine. Yes. Yeah, exactly uh, I think the Uh, I think the iron jaws is a is a great template. We can use Partially here. So we got a we got a really cool Not super competitive, but cool And one of the things they clearly are very transparent about what they do with white dwarf is they're trying to give new play options to the army, right? I think a super cool option in there Uh would be one where Uh They actually had like a frost lord on stone horn in a battalion that you can use like in a boss style battalion Where you had to have multiple frost lords on stone horn in it Okay, like they did for the multiple mega boss on mokra. The whole article would be frost lord based Because it would like normally they choose like a Like a tribe. Okay, sure. Let's say they do. Yes. Let's let's let they yeah, okay We'll we'll get a tribe. Let's make it On making winter the the winter bite, which is like everybody wants to do but it just can't happen Okay, right. So this makes this this is an article where winter bite Uh, the goal here is to make winter bite have more options Okay, okay So we get a big battalion focused on frost lords on stone hordes like a boss style battalion about multiples of them rolling together Okay, okay There's one Uh, we get another type of battalion based solely around yeti's That gives the yeti's a cool ability Right. Okay. Okay, where it's just like literally yeti hordes is the idea of the battalion. Yeah, right? Um, I don't hate this. Okay. All right, kenny. What's your thought? Well, I don't think it came up, but There's only one just the one priest right has to be a husk guard On the thunder tusk to be able to be a priest. It's the only like the same the same other version doesn't have The uh, the priest keyword, but this is so I can see that maybe doing something where you could offer the priest keyword to another model Oh, okay All right, because it's the only one sure So somebody else could be a priest. Okay. Yeah, I still be a beast call. I mean you could still that might be something to To do with this this winter bite approval Just, you know, something else on the on the stone horn can Gain the keyword priest. Sure. I'm down with that Uh, it would be super cool if we lived in a world where like the ice brow hunter could become a priest That would be awesome If there was a battalion that made him into a priest and and he had maybe he's in the yeti battalion and like he's used his priestly magic to to ensnare a bunch of uh of uh Of yeti's how about that because toad and mrs. Big crossbow. There you go. Sure. We've got a new we've got a new Uh, we have a new plastic hunter out now. Right. What do you think of that model by the way? I like him. We talk about that Yeah, I like him. I think he's good I think their their aos rules are pretty good too making a piece of terrain like do d6 more to winster unit But that's pretty good. I think yeah the the the trapper guys. Yep Yeah, I think they're fine. I like the new I I think they're another one of the like interesting but not like Not at the level of crash knack Uh underworlds war vans, right like or crash rack, whatever his name is the the one who just became who became like the gold standard for quality He wrote his name is Because he can give the plus one to hit out, right? That's why that guy's like the gold standard for quality So Can I take a left turn? Yeah, man. Sure I'm gonna pitch a different one I'm ready Uh, it's uh blood gullet Okay That focuses on the fire eater Okay, I like it on the fire belly. You mean in the fire belly and it's a Polynesian themed there it is. I knew it. We couldn't get away We had to get to it. Here it is folks. That's right. We had to get to the Polynesian themed Okay, I think you have a Uh a luau themed battalion Where the like the fire belly is like Barbecueing so he's your butcher. Yes adds the key word the butcher key word the butcher key word to him to the fire belly and um And Man-eaters are what he's running with Okay Because they're the the other white meat the other pig that the luau is going to cook up. Sure There you go. It gives them some ability right like um Yep, and it's a fairly cheap battalion like it's like an 80 point battalion. Sure. Okay. We have to offset the man-eater cost I'm down with that. I like that I like that. So and so you can use the pirate like you use the pirate man-eaters. Yep. Sure Just saying The woman with the rolling pin. Yeah, you can do something I'm just There's I think there's gas there. It's all I'm saying Okay, any other thoughts about ogres that we want to we want to share here before we before we call it a night I don't know. I I think that there Since the books come out, I found that there there's more variety playing them, which I'm happy with Because it kind of seemed pretty one side in the beginning. Yeah, uh, I They still obviously are doing well because they still keep running out of the adulterers and our guts keep going out of stock So they're a little hard to get Um, and they are represented well, and I think they're they're a good army That they're if you're like I said, if you're getting new you into the game, you know, you can get them Pretty cheap to get the models from the start collecting kits. It's a lower model count They're good to learn the painting too because there's large surface areas and the musculature and there's Uh, I don't know if all the stuff is great for contrast if you're learning though So I think there's a lot you can do with the army, but it has so much character and I guess it's one thing I would encourage people to play if they're gonna do the ogres like It's a fun army. So I'll have fun with it, you know Don't let those iron draw players are the ones that are shouting stuff Yeah, you know if you're in an event where you get sports wards based on who's loudest Fantastic, you know, that's a thing sure You should be able to compete. It's I don't it's it's a fun army. It's destruction army too And it's nice to see another just like the destruction army because I don't you don't often I mean now with the with the war clan should do I guess but you know, we didn't see destruction very much at all. So I think the time was right Maybe not against phone phone reapers Because when the box came out those two armies together it seems kind of one-sided at times But yeah, I don't know. I've been very impressed with the ogres and they're kind of fun They really like grab my heart and my wallet and They've been just so much fun. Yeah Yeah, I just and I keep buying more of them And there's always a different hobbying thing and you know, the jimmy buffered fire eater I don't know if I'm gonna have them done in time for a depth of con But I'm working on that and Yeah, just I feel like I could still with the models I have still played the other tribes to it and just I mean not really and I tell them actually done with them as an army. So I don't know. I've been pretty happy with them Yeah, I like that Paul says an ogre battalion including giants when the for the sons of bahamut inclusion Yeah, that's fine My giants are happy to take some ogres as pawns and servants to go out and die first because they're Weedy little Weedy little Miniatures tiny people who who are shuffled forward Uh revenge I say for the original loss of the sky titans like we're back, baby The giants are back so the giants would just be like, oh, yeah ogres. They make the best they make the best gumbo In in more ways than one Yeah, yes Indeed it's the it's the fat. Uh, it's the fat content. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's very marbled meat. I'm sure Absolutely. Yes So, okay, cool. Tom any final thoughts? Uh, it's still an intriguing army to me. Um, I don't really want to paint them But I would probably if I like the models better. I would probably run An ogre army like I think it's the first. Let me say it this way. It's the first Uh elite army like large like like low model count army. That's uh, like that's intrigued me Okay, right on Yeah, I mean my summary thoughts are I think it it it is a book that is held up in the test of time It's only gone up since its release Um, and it's sort of percentage It's fairly resilient, but it's straightforward to play. It's fun Yeah, I mean, I think it's a success. I honestly wish more books Felt and and were like the ogre book Now, I think there are still disappointments in there I there are things that I still wish were redesigned to be better Like the hunter has some janky rules iron guts have weird rules that just shouldn't have been written like that Like there's opportunity for improvement. Don't get me wrong, but on the whole I think this book is a big success Um, and I think it's fun. I think the numbers have borne that out. So there you go Uh, okay, cool. All right, folks that brings us to the end of the show Hey, give this a like if you've liked it Remember hitting that little like button cost you nothing but helps a lot of other people find the show So go down there click that little thing Uh, don't forget about the surveys that are down in the description They'll be down there once uh when this goes live as soon as we go off the air Uh, so click those and take that I would very much appreciate it You're helping for the big research project and the more if you answer Uh, get your make your opinions heard don't let other people Tell you what their opinion is and dominate the survey Make your opinions heard. You've got to get otherwise your voice won't be counted And unlike other types of voting, this is still relatively small enough that your vote really does matter So, uh with that I'll say thank you very much everybody for watching. We certainly do appreciate it. Uh, and as always We'll see you next wednesday