 Now gentlemen You claim this to be a work of fiction Yes, yes as senior press gallery journalists You are aware of the laws of defamation in Australia Yes, yes, should we be Steve? Perhaps you are more aware than others of the laws of defamation in this country. Steve is Why would that be Steve? Well working for New Zealand and I mean every day is a yeah, no, I'm not sure what Chris means by that You work for the ABC, how many legal writs have you got a prison mate? Not a prison. I haven't got that many None that I'm aware of. He's involved in any court matters? Are you? I'll be asking I'll be asking questions at this point In several high profile cases in Australia the following standard for libel in Fiction has been established The description of the fictional character is so closely akin to the real person claiming to be defamed that a reader Knowing the real person would have no difficulty linking the two Given that standard do any of your characters Risk exposing you to a defamation action. I think not Mainly because we spent a lot of time talking to lawyers when we were writing this book and I turned to this very small Disclaimer, which I hope I can read right at the front and I pointed towards it I'm pleased you've turned to that disclaimer because might I point out to you Chris? Oh, sorry to interrupt Unlike most disclaimers this one has an additional sentence It goes beyond the boilerplate Like all works of fiction, etc. Then it says so please do not interpret anything that happens in this book as a real event It goes on. I just I suggest to you that you protest too much Can I read the first part since you are partially quoting what we we put in our legal disability? No, you may not okay? Let's test the disclaimer with the main character the protagonist or Should I say antagonist in this case? Katrina Bailey Mandarin speaking ex-prime minister who set an inhuman work pace obsessed by the media cycle described as socially autistic Prone to using incomprehensible words then contrived to the more common come on cover Betrayed by her deputy the first prime minister to be dumped before an election Returns as foreign minister hell bent on revenge Do you stand by your claim female that this character is a work of fiction? Female and can I point out to you that for all but one chapter in this book? She is in a coma in Canberra Hospital and although I think you might be referring to Kevin Rudd some of his colleagues might wish He was in a coma in Canberra Hospital. It is not the case. I Would alert your lawyers immediately Nobody mentioned Kevin Rudd Let's assume for the purposes of this interview that the events are fictional Some of the detail is quite fascinating Let me take you to the description of Emily Brooks The right-wing warrior the description of her apartment in Canberra during the sex scene Is that from personal observation? Look, I can't go into Steve Lewis's methods But but we did put in a lot of research from this Steve Thanks very much, mate You seem to know a lot about the Assyrian rug. There's one scene where the transvestites within the Canberra public service All come together for a drinking and dancing session Have either of you in your professional capacity or otherwise been drinking and dancing with transvestites Yes, yes Have you been in the national press club on the first night? Hello Camera lets it tear down and I mean, you know, can I say one of the fact Julie? No Can I say one of the things that's fascinating about this book with you know Everyone's saying oh, this is this character. This is that character One of the one of the reviews which was really amusing was when someone said yes This is clearly this person. This is clearly that person But the thing that gives this away is how could there possibly be a transvestite that worked in the defense signals directed in? Australia when you need such a high security clearance. Well, that happens Coming to your theory of a recognisable landscape a still handsome journalist in the press gallery And he knows Have you seen how much weight he's lost on genre so Harry Dunkley is whom Harry don't well Harry Dunkley clearly a Made-up character because he's an ethical journalist who works in campus Chris you know any one who might fit that description? No But I do know that all of the characters at male and female we have populating the book both of us being gentlemen over the age of 50 Now just or all quite good-looking Chris I think it's time we came to perhaps some of the more personal elements in the book If I can just lean You were a student priest I was like your leader One observation in the book is that Catholic men React in different ways to their religious upbringing. They either feel guilty all the time about their body and its needs Or they rebel and engage in sex like there's no tomorrow Which category do you place yourself on? Absolutely and undoubtedly in the feeling guilty all the time Because to answer any other way would get me into an enormous amount of trouble In many instances in the book the facial the destiny of the main characters is Determined by the leaks now in your experience When leaks are made against the minister Do they more often come from the bureaucracy? The minister's own party or the opposition Gee Yeah, exactly it depends on the depends on the purpose of them I would say that that of all of those the ones that happen least often of the ones that come directly from the bureaucracy I know now having been twice investigated by the Australian federal police that when in twice only twice What are you up to now? Figures that That that when the government really genuinely doesn't know when a leak where a leak comes from that's usually where it ends So that sometimes is an indicator as to where those things might come from But quite often there are people who leak against their their own in order to do their own damage I mean imagine a case where for instance for instance hypothetically imaginary world of politics where for instance Journalists is there and someone rings them up and they want to leak Against their own boss. I mean somebody who actually worked for a senior political figure like maybe the president of the Senate or That I what's the other position in the House of Rep. See Imagine if one of their own staff wanted to leak against I mean, I know we know it wouldn't happen But I mean that would be extraordinary would it I think so Have you ever felt Steve that you've been used as a pawn in a much bigger and more important game? Or he shuffles uncomfortably You know, it is interesting, I mean if you look back over the last 20 years and all those great stories that have been leaked and they've been heaps and heaps You are being used. I mean journalists are part journalists are part of the the political game and I think it's Undoubted that that you are you are being used to get a message out there and You are you are? occasionally Involved in in instances that become Celebrated affairs if you like and of course you're going to be Used but you certainly have to be aware that you're going to be part of someone's game You always are and Harry Dunkley points that out in the book He says that journalists are always part of someone's game and but in this instance when he's working on this story He couldn't work out at first whose game he was part of and that's you need to know what games being played and what the purposes are