 Abledon Arnair, major sponsorship was given by Green Mountain Support Services, empowering neighbors with disabilities to be home in the community. Also sponsorship was given by Washington County Mental Health Services, where hope and support come together, and Champlain Community Services of Vermont. Hello and welcome to this edition of Abledon Arnair, the one and only program that for the past years has been focusing on the needs, concerns, and achievements of the Dippinley Abel in Vermont and beyond. I'm your host Lauren Seiler. I'm your host Lauren Seiler. And on this field edition of Abledon Arnair, we take a look again at Montpelier's infrastructure with Anne Watson, our distinguished mayor, and Tom McCartle, director of public works of the town of Montpelier, Vermont. Let's take a look at this field footage from Tom McCartle and Anne Watson talking about Montpelier's infrastructure and the ADA compliance laws of buildings and city streets. Let's take a look at this. I'm the director of public works. And I'm also the ADA coordinator for the city. Oh my goodness, exactly. So the director of public works is a number of tasks, but oversees the overall department. On the ADA side of things, which is why we're here today, is the Americans with Disabilities Act and Title II of the of the Act. And that applies to municipalities and all the public facilities. So this is what you've asked to look at is the public right of way aspect of the ADA. We've just completed an assessment. In fact, just sent it to you. The schedule and the list for all the municipal buildings and outdoor areas at Hubbard Park. So with us today is Anne Watson, the mayor of Montpelier. Hello. Hello. My name is Anne Watson. I'm the mayor of Montpelier. Do you need anything more? No? Okay. Great. Awesome. Well, I'm excited to... This is not the tonight show. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to go on this walk with you and see what we'll see what the observations are. Well, I mean, I think the first step was to get this pretty comprehensive report. The plan, it's an ADA transition plan. And it's a pretty great list of things that city needs to be doing to make our our town more accessible and compliant with ADA standards. And so from there, we're going to need to prioritize what should be done first. And that, I mean, we're going to be looking to the ADA committee for a lot of input on that and input into the budget for the next years to... Because as you say, we can't fix everything immediately. But as we, you know, try to decide what things have to have to happen first, it is hard to prioritize that sort of thing because, you know, accessibility means different things to different folks with different needs. And so that can be absolutely tough. But we're going to see what we can do to just start working away at it. Well, as far as money is concerned, because I know everything has to do with money and finances, it's for the ADA Title II. Is there a specific budget that's mandated? Or is it, is it go by quarter, goes by, you know, by the amount of... Is it on the floor? 3, 2, 1. Okay. So the... For financing under the public right-of-way side of things, first of all, that's overall assessment needs to be added to the plan. It's not currently included in the plan. The way we've been approaching it over the last several years is a substantial alteration is defined by a revision reconstruction, repaving of a street. And under that program, both federal, state, and local, we fund improvements to our crosswalk ramps as required under the ADA for an alteration. So that those monies are embedded in the projects for paving and sidewalks. Special projects where they're targeted to address a compliance issue, we did... No, not an emergency. Just a targeted need where a ramp doesn't exist or is non-compliant. We'll target money specifically for that in our capital improvement project. An example of that is around Vermont College. We have a couple more ramps to complete up there, but we did several of them under a specific targeted project under the CIP program. They're not identified as ADA compliance projects, but they are projects that are... We include it as part of a sidewalk project, for example. We're going to rebuild a sidewalk. We'll build it in compliance with the ADA. So it doesn't really matter one way or the other how we do it. So one way or the other, those projects are funded. The main street where we're standing here today was funded by the Federal Highway primarily. The city had some money in the roadway and sidewalks. And under that project, the ramps were all rebuilt and all of them were assessed. You see the new tactile warning devices. There's still a number of punch list items left to be completed. Some of the ramps exceed the half-inch maximum. So that's the funding side of the public right away. The crosswalks, the speaking crosswalk signs, is that part of Montpelier's ADA compliance? Crosswalk what? Signs or ramps? The signs, you know, when you push the button, it says don't walk or stop. Some parts of Montpelier have those. Right, that's not under the ADA, but if you provide them, then they have to be accessible. And they have locatable tones for those that are not apparent, where somebody who's caning would have trouble finding them. That's Maine and state, where you have a locator tone. The fact they have crosswalks, signs, or signalization is not under the ADA, but when you provide them, then they have to be compliant. Expediency, but I probably shouldn't park in there. What's that? Does everybody know that? Does everybody know what that I'm the mayor? Probably not. I highly doubt it. Yeah, right. So I'm wondering if I should move my car. You could ask. Move it across the street right here. This is no parking, but right behind that car down there with the brake lights on, that is a parking spot. In fact, it's got a room for two. Diplomatic community. Diplomatic community. Very nice to meet you, sir. You make a lot of things, but you know, it's like... I was in a movie. Diplomatic community. Yeah, this guy was a crook drug dealer, just bad person, and he had... He was a diplomat, and what he was doing was laundering money from drugs, and they couldn't arrest him because that's actually true. There's a movie that was called Barbershop. It's a comedy about these guys, this guy that owns the barbershop in the past down family, his family, and his barbershop gets robbed, and through this comedy, somebody tries to steal an ATM machine after the air dissent, if you know he's a company. So, no, that's not mine. He kept on saying, that's not mine, that's not mine, and the ATM machine, and the cops questioned him, like, what's your ATM machine, what's this ATM machine doing in your living room? You know, and... That's not mine. That's not mine. No, no kidding. He couldn't open it. He couldn't open it. No kidding, it's not yours, you shouldn't have it. He tried to open it with a bat, try to open it with a pipe, but, you know, speaking of which, you know, we all here working as a team, and, you know, stuff gets... Not everybody remembers that. But it's something in New York where we came, where we came from, you know, came to Montpellier. Some of the ADA compliance there, they're accessible vans and so on and so forth. Right. Takes so long picking up people, and then... Good, how are you? How you doing? And then, you know, they say, oh, we're going to fix this, we're going to fix this, and it doesn't get fixed. We're talking about New York situation. Oh, yeah. I took my mother to New York. She's a damn Connecticut-born from New York State. I was disgusted with lack of accessible bathrooms and accessible parking spaces. Parking rides? Well, we were on our way to Connecticut, so we were heading over to, what is that, 84. Okay, so that's what we see here. Actually a good way to go down. Some of these here, the further you go up. These, technically, are all in compliance with the ADA. It's a half-inch or more vertical rise. If it's more, it has to be rounded. Yeah. I can't remember what the gap is, but I think that's in the half-inch or three-quarter-inch range. So, technically, all of this is sidewalk design is a cross-slope level of two percent. Okay. And a running slope can't be more than, I believe, eight. So, cross-slope is that side-to-side and running slope is forward-to-backward? Okay. So, if you've ever tried to be in a tried-out-of-wheel chair. Yeah. And I've tried it. It's pretty, it's a pain. Yeah. But when you're in a severe cross-slope, your tires, trying to, you have to put all the, all the drive in the lower tire to try to go straight. Right. And you have this sensation of trying to tip over. Got you, right. And because you're otherwise. As you go up, I ride it, you'll see some of that. You might, you might want to, it would tend to turn. That's right. Yeah. The steeper this cross-slope, the more difficult it is. Then it becomes un-not-navigable. Got you. Driveways are some of the worst places. The most difficult to design for proper cross-slope. Uh-huh. So, here's a new ramp, um, turn around. This thing. And they messed up with the, the ramps, they had to patch it. Oh, yeah. Should these, should these be more raised or lowered or what? These are, these are for the visually impaired. Yeah. So, it has to be color contrast. The raised bumps are something. So, it tells somebody who's visually impaired, that they're about to enter a traveling area. So, these are, these are compliant. The thing about this is that there's a green strip. But you do have to drop this grade as well. So, why, very often, see the sidewalk is reconstructed on either side of the ramp, because we have to drop this to meet that slope. But the problem is. So, you're going to meet the, meet the grade. One of the problems that we run in, especially with this, like, uh, over the wet, during the wet weather, ice or something like that, this gets slippery. It can. Yes. So, there's got to be some kind of warning. You know, that was in project development. It's got to be better tangles. Kind of come up with a, with a suitable tackle warning. Oh, interesting. Just a little bit. But there are, these little bumps in between are, are your skid resistance. Mm-hmm. And then these get worn off a little bit. See the little bumps on top of the bumps? Mm-hmm. That's for skid resistance. Interesting. And that's really the only state-approved tactical warning. They have some, most of them failed miserably. Oh, no. The only one that, that's now approved is the cast iron. Huh. Yeah. Do you want us to be notifying you? Sure. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, I mean, and this is not, this is not, you know, this is a no judgment question. Like, what, what would be the process from there? Like, we'll let you know. Fairly simple patch. Basically they block off the shoot the whole, they block the shoot the whole entire day or? No, um, to patch that, uh, we can usually maintain pedestrian traffic going on that. That's, that's not a very long. We've got to clean it out. We'll fill it with, uh, the concrete. Okay. This is, this is, that would be considered a, uh, a non-compliant. And when they're non-compliant for, for the ADA, they're also very often a trip and fall hazard for anybody. Sure. Is that because of the, um, People attract their feet. It's not the way, it's all because of the weather situation. A lot of this is, uh, it's a very brutal climate. And we have, uh, very poor soils in my pillar. It's a glacial till, silty soils, so they're not well drained. And we get a lot of frost action in our soils. And then the very harsh climate. Sidewalks are plowed, so it allows the frost to penetrate deeper. And then, as we all know, um, when water freezes, it expands. And they don't always settle back once they thaw out. So for something like this, would the solution be that you just end up grinding down the, the upper edge? We have a, we have any grinder that does that. Yeah, okay. Cool. Sweet. I mean, should that be a hazard? I wouldn't consider that a hazard. That, yeah. That's what I'm going to call it. Yeah. This is bad. This is, this has gotten to a point where it needs to be replaced. And replaced means it's, as opposed to patching it. So I would cut this, this whole square out. Yeah. And is that because there's this crack in the middle of it as well? Yeah, there's no salvaging here. And you're hitting wet into the parking lot of the church. Yeah. So these are, these are access issues. They have a second driveways. So this, so this crew would be okay if we blocked. Yeah, we have to notify them. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that is getting to be a pretty good gap there. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Gosh. I was also looking at down in front of the, oh, the inn in Gary home. I should have pointed that out where the sidewalk is lower than the curb. Sidewalks are meant to drain to the street. Okay, yeah. Designed with a, what are, what are about two percent. Through that and to the street. Down there, it's a sunken sidewalk. Oh, so it's lower than the curb. There's no water to go. And so the water's going to go into the sidewalk. Yeah, that's no good. So do all of, I'm just maybe, I'm not sure if I'm noticing this exactly now, but at least it seems true for this little patch here. But are the sidewalks all sort of tipped towards the road for drainage? That makes sense. I don't know if that's great design, because that's where we store our snow and then that freezes. Yeah. And then there's no place for the water to go. So we try to work with our sidewalk plow operator to, every once in a while, cut a little hole. Okay. Just push out into that. And it'll let the water drain. Once the water's flowing, it'll make its own path. Now as we go up here. We have to keep reminding them and do that once in a while. As we go up here, because it'll go up, some of it slopes just right here. It's like as you go, as you go towards the city side. If you understand the main streets, the flatest street we have in Montpellier. It's a flatter, flatter the pancake. So flat that it's tough to drink. It's very unique from Montpellier. Everything else is so slow. And they're talking about it slow. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of funny. But yeah, there is a very gradual rise up to all the way up to Berry Street in Main Street, but I would say maybe, maybe two feet the whole way. Hmm. Interesting. So this is getting to be close. Yeah. And I think if I were to have done this over again, I would put a control joint here, not a construction joint. And what is the, can you, what is that? Well, a control joint is a design for the concrete shrinks, cracks. Over time? Yeah. Well, as it, as it cures. Oh, okay. Yep. And what you're trying to do is, is control with that cracking occurs. Okay. So you put it in a joint. Okay. And there's probably a little crack in here if that was cut deep enough. Uh-huh. As opposed to a construction joint, which is actually a form joint. So the concrete isn't actually connected. Okay. So like here, this panel is in fact connected to that panel. It's connected to that. But there's this groove. That's right. And there's, there may or may not be a crack in there. Got you. Okay. Because that's where you're forcing the crack to occur. But here, like this panel is not actually connected to this. Right. And because of that, there's some differential settling. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yep. They don't, they don't rise and. Yeah, they're not together. Yeah. And, and so probably. I'd probably take this out with a grinder too. You mean to like shave the panel? And it has been done here. Yeah, I was going to say. It looks, it definitely looks like it's been ground down. And it's like it's getting close. Yeah. You need, you need that. Well, like it looks like it's been ground down here as well. But it's, it's close. And myself personally impaired, if I am, you know, sometimes, especially at night, one of the things that we could work on is possibly maybe, if it's in the budget, ADA budget, to have reflectors of sorts on the sidewalk. Or because I know some of the roads when you're driving, you have reflectors. But what about those that. On the sidewalk? Yeah. So reflectivity is, is relies on a headlight. So there's not going to, it's going to be dark unless you shine a light on it. Because it's a prism that reflects the light back. Yeah. So sidewalk level lighting. So down in this area, we have just the area lights for both the streets and sidewalks. When you get downtown, we have both pedestrian and the, and the 30-foot length. Hmm. Yeah. So the pedestrian lanterns are like the ones on that inferior sign? Yep, yep, there's one in there. Yep. Yep. So we had a disability awareness day at the farmer's market. Oh, wow. And brought the wheelchairs down and different goggles. So we brought them down from Sheila with Vermont Association for the Blind. Oh yeah, sure. And it simulated different eye conditions. And I tried out the ones that are fully blind. Oh, really? So I wanted to find our new pedestrian button. Yeah, how was that? I could hear it. It really do focus. Really? Oh, interesting. But I had to get close. Interesting. I had to be close. I had to know kind of where to listen. Interesting. Some of the street down here, have you noticed? Here's some severe, more severe cross-slope. I was noticing this the other day. Yeah, yeah. You can tell that it's definitely sloping towards the road. You got it. Yeah, that's probably given a five percent. Oh, really? Four to five percent. Probably, so more than it probably should be. Yeah, it's probably twice what it should be. Yeah, interesting. So I'm not long, but it just looks like it needs to be fit. Yeah, you're right. Well, I wonder, gosh, I mean, for something like that, this seems tough because otherwise it doesn't, I mean, maybe that one up there, it otherwise doesn't look like it's a trip hazard. No, here's some grinding we did. I think we did have some trips involved here. Yeah. Yeah, that's a recent grinding. It don't look too bad. Those are pretty good. Yeah. It's just, it's just, it seems like that would be a bigger job to fix. If it's like, like this part right here, it's pretty. And usually in, you got to pull the curb. Oh, yeah. So again, that makes sense. That does get expensive. Now when it comes to. The nice thing about it is you can, granite curb, you can reuse. Sure. So you remove, reset. You could actually take out this section of granite curb and then, and then would you just redo, you would redo these panels and then put the curb back? No, you put the curb back in first. You, okay, okay. Thank you for that. Got you. Get out of the road. Reset your curb to grade. Yeah. Patch your curb in and then you set your grade for the sidewalk. Yes. I'd replace all this all the way up to, about where that shadow is from the tree. Now when it comes to like, some of the business in downtown, there's like one particular business that's not accessible, which is the pizza shop. What's the pizza shop? Positive pie is? No, no, not positive pie. The other one. Bluestone. Bluestone. Oh yeah. It's not accessible to bathrooms or not accessible whatsoever. Is there a way that we could talk through the idea committee, talk to the business owner, about making it more accessible or something like that? There's no ramp whatsoever. Well, the way we do it currently is, is through the the building permit process. But there are architectural exemptions for historic building. So it's a historic building? Yeah. So those, there are architectural hardships that are hard, difficult to overcome. What about? So we're the property owner really needs to be committed and there are some grants available through the housing community development. It says. Oh, because how's the diner first? Is that why it's? Well, I'll give you an example. Three penny worked with us in the committee on, and they're actually recognized by Vermont Center for Independent Living for making the modifications. But that was a larger renovation project. They were rebuilding that from a bookstore or whatever it was to a restaurant. So they had the whole place gutted. To simply retrofit, modify a place that isn't other already undergoing renovations. It becomes much more difficult and challenging. So that's something we work with our building department to encourage property owners to do that. And we got to remember that these are customers they're missing out on. They can't get into their building. So it's it's really incentivizes. Well, if you figure the whole world or majority of the nation has a challenge of some kind of some kind. Yeah, I forgot the numbers, but I think it's somewhere in the order of the 15 to 20 percent population have have a mobility disability. Then there are those that are silent as well. Yeah, there's there are other disabilities. There's many, many that qualify under the ADA. Yeah, but the mobility challenges is the one that that's a real. That's a true barrier, a stair. Some of this. So it's such a critical point. What's wrong with this point? This point right here. Another role of the basin is the pipe. There's a huge telephone. Oh, really? Really? The pipe is shallow and small. Okay. So it's just a scratch where we're always cutting ice. So it just doesn't because it's a telephone wire in there. Oh, there's maybe those two manholes. Yeah, there's three over there. Oh, because because that building. Yeah. Right. And if you look up in the sky, you don't see any wires. It's really nice about my place. It's pretty nice. It's a tower, a tower, I told them. It's nice you're trying, but it's way too steep. So you told them that. Yeah, yeah. So unless they're under. In State Street also. Under a state permit requirement, they're not obligated to do it. So it's really a lot of it is just encouraging to do it. It's showing them that it's very often you can remove some, they call readily available barriers. I'll just move your products back. Put them back also. Yeah, I'm going to get wide enough. Get into those architectural issues that has a floor slab that's this is what I had to remove. This is also a problem. That that is right there. Yep. And some cracking here that needs to be worked on. The other time. Yeah, you said that place has architectural damage. Right, right. So but that's a floor slab. The final floor slab when it comes to stuff like this. So your ramp or your floor, the main floor of the restaurant is at a higher grade than the sidewalk. So to modify something has to give. If you raise the sidewalk or lower the floor, you do both. And when you're dealing with a floor grade, you're now into the structural members. Very often isn't enough any play in a floor to drop it. What we have done in a couple of locations, and we did out over here with three penny is they made an architectural change internally. We allowed the sidewalk to also be lifted. So we kind of met in the middle. In some cases that can be done. That's a good solution, but not in all cases because we can't then put the city sidewalk out of compliance by raising it too much. Sure. We worked with the state on a grant over on Elm Street in court. Oh, that restaurant just changed hands again. I think it was Korean, but over by uncommon market. If you look at that next time you're over there, you'll see how the city sidewalk was raised. Hippie chickpea. Chickpea now. Right. We brought the sidewalk up and it's right on the borderline of being compliant, but we provide worked with them and provided an accessible entrance to the store. I got a complaint about this winter. So I related to the property out there. So I called them on several occasions and I have mentioned to you I had to. You? But and you think it's three feet wide? Fairly. Yeah. So they're actually not three feet wide. So because as you go with the wheelchair, like it's too narrow and it bumps into it. Yeah. And that's probably not a wide enough turnaround area. So this was built really before the the architectural barriers act. Probably weren't under those standards. I think this was in the 80s. Yeah. This would be a major project to rebuild. But is this private? This is private. This is all private property. Can. But it's a public building. So they're under Title III. So because they allow public access. Okay. To provide public access. Yeah. They have the restaurants and offices. They're under obligation to meet the standard during a renovation. Okay. So if they were to ever renovate. They would have to bring it up to stand. Okay. And is that any part of it or just this part? It would have to be this aspect of it. So I saw him. I saw them paint. You paint jobs. That's not a substantial alteration under the ADA. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it seems like. Because yeah, I mean the concrete's kind of coming apart here. So if they were ever going to say like, well, we're going to repair the concrete. That would turn into a major project. You might trigger it that way. But it's. I was thinking this was at least three feet wide. And they just had some issues like our side. Here in the building. They have another ramp out back. But they've closed that off. That entrance. That entrance. So I think if somebody might press the point, you have an accessible entrance. But why did they close it? Oh, is there a reason? I don't know the reason of that. But that would be an alternative and interim solution. Under the ADA, you were required to provide equal access. So it's frowned upon to have somebody. It's not really equal. But as an interim measure, that would be suitable. City Hall is an architectural barriers. And there's an exemption. So people would understand why you use the back entrance. And it's very often the back entrance is the front entrance for our meetings. Sure. Yes. Yeah. So it's not really that unequal. Yeah. Because everybody else is using that door. Yeah, it's true. But this building, it would be that. To me, that would be a good interim solution. Particularly in the winter months where this is, that's when I got the complaint. It was icy, not maintained. They shoveled the walkway, but they didn't clean this out. And some of the doors, there aren't like the timer is off and it closes early. And there's like, is there a way to fix that as well? That's not an equal access issue. If everybody's prevented from going in the building and they have a lockout, that's fine. And it's how that door operates. No more than five pounds of pressure. And you can't twist and grab. So and if you can't meet that standard, then you can do the automatic. You push the button. Don't know if they have those. Was the button working? It works and it doesn't work. Okay. We went through it that day and it. Yeah. Some, it closes. It does have a button? Yeah. Okay. It closes too early. Some of them are on like when it works, but they're on a timer. And if the timer is off. So you're saying that while it opens, it doesn't stay open long enough? No. Okay. And it slams. Oh, there's a there's a time. Yeah. So it can't it can't bump you and knock you over. Yeah. Yeah. They have to close gradually slowly. Interesting. That seems that would be interesting. That's a maintenance. That's an adjustment. Yeah. You should be able to just adjust. Right. Just adjust that. Yeah. Steak straight. So like some of this. See? So this is like is that bad? Yeah. What is it? Uh. Splitting a pump. Something we keep an eye on. And it's not a not a priority with so many other things. But if you got worse. Yeah. This one's good a little bit. That one I would fix. Yeah. Got to get something in the background for my landmark. Yeah. Yeah. All right. You know that makes sense. So it's not this. Straight down. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All right. Best. See like just a little bit. Sorry. Sorry. Back in here. Like some of this. Along here. Splits. Yeah. Splits. We've got some more to do on the bridge. Which bridge is this? Up here. From an ADA perspective. I don't like this. Oh, yeah. Yeah. This was all done with a paving project. That's good to say. This definitely all looks new. Yep. Yep. And yeah, this was. You see? This was patched also. It's actually lower. What's that? It paved it. I presume it was a little bit too low. Or it may have been a puddle. So maybe they ground it and then add it there to try to. You ground it off. Yeah. Make a rough and surface. So that it wouldn't be here. Uh-huh. So you might grind off too. Yeah. Put that one. Okay, got you. Oh, it's already on the list. Well, that's good. This is the tricky one you can't replace the wall. What did you mean? Because it is the bridge. Oh, this. This is considered the bridge? This is the bridge. Well, because it is a bridge. Oh, yeah. Because we're over the river right now. Yeah. Oh, interesting. So all we can do is patch it. So like, because like it looks, I'm guessing like from this panel right here because there's this crack here that this would otherwise be one that you'd be like, oh, let's replace that panel. But you can't right now. And now there's a steel plate underneath this. Wow. So I mean, someday we'll be replacing this bridge. Replacing the bridge or fixing? Replacing. It's a replacement. Yeah. Okay. Replacing. So when that happens, that will probably include this. Everything. Is there anything to prevent the cracks in the sidewalk each way or because then you got to do all the work over again? All the work that you do, cleaning stuff up, right? And then you have a water membrane break, then you got to do everything over again that was a problem. And I'm not really following the cause by the excavation to repair it. So it's, it all has to be restored. So whatever, whatever was impacted by the water main through our own actions or by the cause, by the failure, it's all replaced in kind new. So for example, Elm Street, we just patched the sidewalk with asphalt for the winter. That will be replaced with concrete and granite shortly. Anything else you want to say? No, just thanks for, thanks for doing this tour. Anything you want to wrap up? No, no, I think, I think it's important that we let folks know that we're aware of this. ADA awareness is important and that every community has this challenge to try to stay up with it and meet their obligations under the ADA for equal access. A lot of communities, it might be a little steep, but it's workable. I would think the bigger issue is the width of that door. Yeah, yeah. And the way it pulls out. Looks like there's no ends to it. Really? I am left with the exterior door. Well, see, that's a fire issue too. It's a fire issue, right? That's supposed to go. Ableton on Air, major sponsorship was given by three mountain support services, empowering neighbors with disability to be home in the community. Also, sponsorship was given by Washington County Mental Health Services, where hope and support come together. And Champlain Community Services of Vermont.