 Welcome to Breeder's Syndicate, where we explore the history of a clandestine scene through the eyes of the folks who lived it. I'm Matthew, owner of Riot Seeds. I'll occasionally be joined by my co-host, NotsoDog, breeder and grower from Mendocina. Welcome to the Underground. Hello everyone, welcome to Breeder's Syndicate. I'm Matthew. This is my co-host, Notso. I know he's been out for a few weeks. Everybody's demanded, missed my friend, Notso. And here we are with our friend Dire Wolf, who is in shadow. And today we're going to talk about some of the Canadian scene and some of his IPM techniques. I know we've been meaning to do a show on IPM and needing to, and it's been heavily requested and this man has a lot of experience with it. So welcome, Dire Wolf. Thank you. I'm kind of happy to be on the black screen with all the critique. Not so it gets on his hair because I'm having kind of a bad hair day today. Yeah, you see how they bust his balls over his hair. It's brutal. I mean, yeah, you know, facial expressions, random stuff you don't even think of, they pick up on and all of a sudden it's a meme or something. Yeah, the verbal tics, sure. Yeah, the verbal tics. It's hard being a public speaker. Yeah. It's not easy, you know. You don't really realize it until you listen to yourself and then you're like, oh man. Yeah, wait until you're staring at yourself in a long selfie for an hour. It's really interesting. Yeah, and anyone that knows me in real life knows that I'm not like a big, I kind of have like a bit, I'm known for like my death stare. I'm like, I look friendly when I'm smiling, but I have a death stare a lot of the time. So it doesn't translate well over phone sometimes, too. Well, we're super glad to have you. I wanted to start out talking a little bit about your early introduction into the import scene and candidate. Let's start there. What was it like? What kind of stuff were you seeing and what years are we talking about? Yeah, so I guess now that I think about it, I actually my original start was actually a weird start. It was actually one of my when I first started was exposed to it was actually from a friend. One of my just a guy from down the street's mom who was we found out later was like a full on like closet grower. She was kind of like this hippie lady and we used to and it was her boyfriend. I actually got us like started smoking weed and then we'd always just jack her weed out of her bread side table and there was a big story that went with it about where it was exotic import and it turned out afterwards. It was just she was literally one of the first growers around our area growing it all in the backyard right in front of us. We had no idea. So basically that might so my first start was with homegrown and then but there really wasn't much weed going around back then it was really all import and I don't remember the years. I started really I started smoking I was like 14 so it's probably like 86 or something like that. And yeah like for basically in Canada until like you got a little bit of domestic stuff but pretty much from those mid like mid 80s until it was like early 90s. There wasn't much domestic at all because we didn't get any like that there was not a lot of outdoor and stuff it was just the occasional indoor and you couldn't even really sell it. It was if you basically had to like I can totally remember people growing indoor and pressing it into bricks and selling it because that was the only way you could actually sell it like you couldn't people wouldn't buy it. They recognize it or Pardon me. Did they not recognize it as cannabis because it looks so different not compressed or what was the reason. Well it was green was one thing and the know back then it was just people didn't recognize that it was possible to grow good wheat they thought it was really it had to be important and keep in mind this is like back in like really you know this will be right around the time where Neville was like launching the seed bank so there probably wasn't a whole lot of like genetics and I mean if you even just put in perspective if you fast forward four or five years later. I bought my first grow light and that was the only grow store in our entire province so they had equivalent of your state we literally had to drive like three hours to buy a by a halide light there was only there was literally only one store. It really wasn't a thing. So, go ahead. Oh what I just remind it was wild when when Matt and I interviewed Carell from super sativa seed club. He had a similar story of when they first started growing indoor. They tried to brown it out, because all this lime green and green color was like a real issue in the market because everyone was used to like imported brown. And they had it was like an issue like green was an issue like people didn't realize it is better they just saw it as something completely unusual. If you read that I read a book by the one of the guys from the cornbread mafia, and that was pretty much their entire curing technique was trying to figure out how to make it brown and crappy looking so it looks like import. That was literally like everything like threw it on the barn floor and it was, it was a for sure thing. And the other thing, the area where I came from, it was very very hash centric. So people didn't even really like buying weed. It was all like, it was all like, mostly that Afghani border ash, it was around and that was like the staple and everything else, other than black Afghani hash was totally suspect. So most of it was import from Afghanistan then as opposed to like Mexican like we were getting in the US it wasn't really making its way up to Canada. I never actually saw Mexican until dead tour in like Ohio or something like that. And you guys had a wholly different language because I remember like looking at it and going like this someone is selling it to me I was like this looks like really crappy is like it's like what are mids I don't know all we knew was hash and high end hydro in Canada. But yeah I know it was it was all, it was you'd get some other stuff but it definitely wasn't the same type of import you're talking about it was pretty much 90% of it was all like that Afghan you know like the gold stamps a lot of it is like border hash. And then you got occasional batches for Morocco or Lebanese and then you got some weed but it was usually pretty high end like it was like tie stick occasionally and we got a lot of like pressed Jamaican and I don't think I think I've maybe seen Mexican like one time in Canada ever. I'm sure it was around. How did you guys used to use the hash like actually smoke it was it the old knife hits or like So the area I'm from is that this like tells you exactly that it's one of those things anywhere you go in the world and everyone be like what like but in our area like the kind of the equivalent of like in all of New York State. This was like in the kind of it was it was an Ontario thing so I grew up around Toronto area and they did what was called bottle toks which you're horrible and I think back but it's like you get a cigarette and you put a little piece of hash on it and then you break a hole in the bottom of like a pop bottle and you like brew you brew brew the hash in there and there's this whole technique and then you kind of tip it over when it's done and it's like a lava lamp and then you suck the hash out but it was like a whole like You were it was like you got social status and a lot in my circles anyways for like being a good BT brewer like it was like an art form being a break the bottle it was kind of when you look back it was like pretty cracky but that was and you'll never hear anyone in Canada know have a clue where you're talking about unless they grew up around Toronto area and then everyone was talking about bottle to you want to say you want to say cracky you look at some of the equipment now for dabbing I mean it just looks like straight meth bikes to me. It's just yeah. Yeah I'm not I'm not I kind of avoid some of those. Even though I kind of like dads I don't dabble a lot because I just hate the whole thing and my wife can't walk by a Dabrick without accidentally breaking it so it's like an expensive hobby. Yeah I never got into the whole torch thing like that was just too much too much too much to screw up too much to do all that once they started getting to like emails and shit where you can just leave it and set it that was okay. It still felt a little cracky but Puff goes and stuff that it was like OK this looks like more like a ball and I can deal with this. I feel like every two or three years in the hash movement right now they all kind of like just move on from whatever they did before that they were convinced was the bees knees. And it just slowly gets dust binned like we're not going to talk about that era anymore that we did that. But it's interesting one of the things that I'll say about that is that you know I grew up in in northern Chicago right. And so even though dire wolf and I aren't like too terribly terribly far from each other vastly different weed cultures. Yeah you know my weed culture was primarily Mexican green and brown and there was almost no hash culture. So it's interesting how like you know Canada and the different laws and rules that applied over there led to vastly different imports that we saw. I think it's also what crime networks were working there because I think the big thing if you go from Canada east to west was totally different. And so basically what was going on in our area was Montreal which is like there's the port that's the big port that comes into Canada from the east coast. That was kind of controlled by by like Irish mafia and that was basically like you could bring all kinds of stuff through there. So everything basically for the most part was coming through that court of Montreal and what was the interesting thing about it. We found out afterwards so we kind of had like up until like about 90 or something it was all black Afghani hash and it kind of went dry for like a couple of years. And then a guy that I was good for I was actually living with at the time he had this connection. It was like this this Irish mafia dude from Toronto and we were like in university and he had for whatever reason nobody could get and we started afterwards with the actual story was which is crazy one. Nobody else had hash except for this guy. So we were like the Kings because we're the only guys that could get black hash which is what everyone wanted and we could get like however much you wanted. And this dude used to show up to our little like you know university student house every Friday night in like a limo and just bring like slabs of this hash in. And he was just like one of those guys that didn't give a crap and he'd like walk out with a ziplock full of cash and it was like every Friday in and out. And what it turned out I found out afterwards it was the reason why they had access to this. It was it was actually Howard Marks old stash. So Howard Marks would have been in jail at the time but apparently he had which if you ever read that Howard's Marks book he was hooked up with Irish food which kind of all makes sense but apparently he got when he went to jail. He had all these stashes sitting all over Montreal still full so they just sat on him for a while and then it started coming out through those and that's why that's where our connect was. So I found a few year old Howard Marks hash and I might not be true but I have a feeling it probably was which probably tells you a whole lot of that and I've heard similar overlapping stories about where all that hash came from in Montreal. And so it was probably that's why everyone was smoking black Afghani hash was probably because they're like one or two major importers that were there controlling that whole thing. I remember the the Nordle story from Neville talking about Nordle and one of his partners and I think one of Mark's partners that was that was one of Mark's partners that had the Nordle thing right. Yeah. Yeah that was their whole deal right it was a guy that was yeah part of the IRA and he smuggled they would smuggle hash through the IRA networks telling them that it was guns that was kind of their whole that was how it works as partner. Yeah. Super gangster for back then. What's interesting about all that too is that there was a lot of hash smugglers that avoided America because the penalties were so much worse. And you know they viewed America sort of like the place where you went to prison for a long time where Europe and Canada and other places were viewed as like a lot chiller if you actually got in trouble. Yeah. You know. So I remember there's the increase some of the charges here if I remember during two fifteen I remember like there were there were bigger charges for hash or extracts than there were for normal cannabis you know cannabis flower. At one point I remember it was getting really bad we're like at one point I was pulled over on the way to this I was like some hash event in LA. And it was like I stopped I was like four a.m. I pulled over to get gas on my way out of San Diego and I didn't have a license at the time that suspended. And of course I got pulled over like cops sitting in the gas station waiting for me you know like no one else is there they were bored and they mess with me super hard over the hash. They're like you know we can get you for this though you know like so they still took it seriously here during two fifteen concentrated cannabis. Yeah. No. Manufacturing and all. Did you get different grades of how would you I mean I know memory can be tough but like did you think the Afghani hash you were getting back then was high quality. So it was mixed so there was yeah there was different grades I would say that we didn't necessarily know they were different grades. But basically so a lot of it there was basically three grades from what I could tell there was and it was just there's different batches and probably the loads were mixed up in a lot of the times back then. Unless you're buying the whole kilo which when we were like you know fifteen you weren't getting you weren't seeing what the stamp was on it. So basically it all came in if you're a see the packs it's it's a they all came in pretty much all came in this red cellophane paper wrap and some of them would have gold seals like which is you know probably is gold spray paint with whatever brand of whatever just like to see with the Moroccan and see with the modern. The hash and and we all it seems like all the best stuff would always had no stamp. And from what I understand I think that probably was the case and it was kind of like the good loads like the stamp stuff was the commercial stuff and some came through that was kind of like the dealer hash it just got each person's handy went through that you know that guy would take the good stuff which was not stamped. I don't know from that 100% but there was definitely and sorry and then there was kind of the third grade which kind of if you talk to some people they're like it was all crap and that was what was called repress and I don't know what the hack they did to it but like it was all controlled I think by the bikers on the kind of street level and somewhere along the lines. Bubble man actually saw what they did once because he was telling me and I still don't really understand what it was but it was some type of thing where they would just it was caught with something and it was like. Really noticeable like the texture was different but most of the stuff that we were getting was kind of really high grade or a lot of it was kind of just like medium but it was pretty good. And it's interesting now the weird thing with legalization in Canada now is now we actually have a really thriving import hash seen again on the black market so there's like websites you can go in Canada that have like the biggest hot import hash selection you've ever seen and they're legit like I've tried a bunch of them. And but it's exactly the same like people say oh it used to be so much better back then it's literally exactly the same as what we used to go yeah. That's crazy. So what kind of years did the Afghani plants in the indoor scene start popping off in your area like when you notice this started to become a normal happenstance thing to go to someone's house and they had to grow. We were pretty like on the like my crowd was that was it was going on before that but so I was in it's probably like it was really early 90s like probably like 92 93 maybe 91 that we were literally like said I went to kind of like the agricultural and agricultural university and that was like some of my crowd kind of were the first people. Other people had grown but we were really one of the first people that really started rocking it out. And it was so it was not common at all like I said when I went to university that was the year that I bought like my first grow light which was probably like 91 or something. And yeah like there wasn't many people doing it and and it was super like we were really some of the only people in town like everyone our crew and everyone was like knew who we were or heard of us because we were the guys with the genetics. And that was pretty much so it wasn't the whole like going around going on I don't think it was kind of a lot of scenes like that like I'm sure we weren't the only people in town but there wasn't very many. When you say the genetics what kind of stuff were you first growing for your indoors your first indoors. My first indoor was well we sorry our very first one we're actually growing import because everyone had like saved all their seeds so the first real real grow we did was I don't even know what it was it was literally just like one of my roommates all the seeds he saved for like 10 years we topped and they're all. Yeah pretty equatorial and her me and nothing great I think we made it all into brownies and then where our where our kind of big break came is one of my friends was he had gone on dead tour to the West Coast and he ended up living on some commune I think he was in I can't remember if it was in Seattle area or Portland area I believe it was down in Portland around Oregon and and he's who can he came back and kind of taught all of our crowd to grow so that's kind of how I learned was from this dude and he had just learned from living on this commune and weirdly growing blueberry indica is what he thought was before DJ short was even around and he would always blueberry indica back then that's not what we were going so we were so he taught us to grow and he just had some old stuff from like SSC and seed bags so he had it was mostly skunk one what we were growing and then I also did. I did a lot of skunk number one and I also did a lot of haze just because that happened to be the seeds we had was a silver pearl or not a silver pearl silver silver haze line. Silver pearl by a. Is that what it was I thought it was something different but for some reason but. So I have this like thing where I like try to discover all the names that since he changed. Right and sometimes you know it's like a hobby or whatever and so one of the interesting parts is when when since he bought Neville seed bank they wanted to obscure how much of it was just a direct port over from the seed bank itself. So they ended up changing a bunch of names right. But the big clue with silver haze was that they in since he they claimed in the silver haze advertisement in the in the book that it won the eighty nine won the overall eighty nine cannabis cup. So you go look at what won the eighty nine cannabis cup and it's silver pearl by Hayes from Neville. They had to put it in there. I mean you got to get it up. So that that was actually like a really helpful piece of information because we actually have like we have photos of the old of the old magazine spread. And it's right there. You know so it started out as like early pearl by skunk one by NL five by Hayes. Yeah. And then I thought it was and then I thought somebody had said it was an or tag or something so I was thinking maybe that but I originally had thought what you're saying. So you're right too. There's this weird thing where Neville used to call a maple leaf by he crossed Afghan tea to Hayes as well. And he called that silver haze. But I don't think he actually ever sold it. I think he kept it private. And that's one of the ones that Shanti uses a lot now if I'm correct. From seed from seed at least. Yeah. So he crossed when the first two things that he crossed Hayes you know it was Afghan tea and NL five and NL five obviously got released and became the super popular thing. But anyway yeah yeah the 89 cannabis cup winner silver pearl by Hayes so that's a good one. Yeah it was a weird one to start with like we start when we had no idea it was just the only genetics we had so we're running all this haze it wasn't super long flowering like they were they were I think we crossed it that was kind of the first kind of messing with genetics that I really did is I crossed just because that's what we had I crossed some of that silver haze with like a skunk number one and we kind of had like the seed line and we kept popping for a long time just because it was only genetics we had and it was it was weird because it was actually really similar to like that sweet skunk that that I grow now and that's partly why I grow it it totally like reminds me of like 1993 or whatever when we were growing these silver haze crossed. I can see that being really good though like a skunk one silver pearl Hayes like that would be pretty legit I would think like it would be fast flowering probably have good bud structure good resin production relatively fast. It was 70 days and then we were probably picking it too early back then it was probably 70 or 75 days I would I was thinking it was it yielded but it wasn't that wouldn't have been like great cashcropper and then the other weird one that you never said I've never most like I said most of the stuff you see back then. I'm like it's still pretty similar to what stuff like there's a lot of stuff now that's pretty similar to the one that I've never seen it was like it is we used to have this. Durban which for sure it was one of my buddies brought it back from sensey and and it was till I've never seen anything like that it was really like it could quite well if I'd indicate in it but it didn't look because it kind of it was like finished really quick and it kind of a short stature but it was like this really weird like full on. Sativa but with really dark leaves and and it totally had that this crazy like anise taste like you hear people say. It wasn't super potent but it was definitely like pretty unique and it was one of the better tasting leads that I've ever had and I've tried a bunch of Durban since I've never seen anything remotely like that way. Yeah I don't really see the the anise Durban at all ever and like you hear these tales of this this beautiful sincey Durban and you just for some reason the the term penalty one seems to be the one everybody kept that just seems to be what I run into. Yeah this was 100% just like anise there's like no doubt about it but that's what it was. That's really cool. And it's certainly a shame because we're talking about things realistically speaking that aren't that that long ago but the nature of prohibition kind of means that like was you know you could have something that was common and five or 10 years go by and all of a sudden it's just disappeared. Yeah. So talk about some of your early crosses dude like you talked about the skunk one by Silverhaze was there any other ones that you were doing doing early on that you found success in or weird stuff in. I did we did a bunch there was one that we can go go into a bit but honestly like you're so I've always been like I'm pretty big on like not messing around unless you can pop some decent amounts of like numbers. Yeah you can never really pop that many that much for numbers so the only one so I did kind of so I played around early and then for a big part of when I was growing I just kind of got out of it because we're so worried about plant can all the time the last thing I have to be doing is like pop and males and and stuff like that but the one so the one I think I told you guys about or I was joking to maybe it was the the purple oracle preker so that was the only one that I never did that was kind of got pretty famous and it was at the time there was no there's really no purple weed and I had gone to Amsterdam and brought back. We went to positronics and I brought back a bunch of stuff and one of them was a strain called purple star. Yeah, yeah well they don't I don't think it's even I don't know if that's even a thing in Holland that they used to be they have all these different purple strains that were for outdoors. Yes, we're deaf passion had and Ozzy had and probably a couple others and anyways I brought that back and it was like actually pretty good you yield or it didn't it wasn't really very good quality but it looked decent and it was like a total knobby was like super purple. Yeah, I had crossed that to we had like a skunk number one cross with Hindu Kush and I crossed it to this purple star and we actually got some pretty nice ones they were kind of like way nicer than the purple star like they were kind of into our quality. Yeah, and and we had that and I gave my old partner at the time he had moved out west to kind of like our little humble which is like the Kootenays which is like Nelson BC and he had moved out there and he before he left he grabbed a whole crop load of those seeds and I don't know if it was the Hindu skunk purple star or if it was that. I think it was actually that it was mixed with that crossed with an aurora Indica which was a northern light strain. And it was he pops like quite a lot like he popped like a hundred or two of those and got this one that they called they just called it papaya and it was like this really nice purple it's kind of like checkerboard purple pattern and these guys were like they were like ballers like so they were doing they were in like the export crowd and and that clone is totally blew up and for a while so in BC there's kind of like everyone always talked whenever most people that you hear talk they're always talking about like coastal BC like Vancouver area. If you go inland about 10 hours there's this is where the Kootenays are and that's where our real like that's where the real players go so for a while for like a couple of years there is a that was like one of the most popular columns being grown there was this papaya thing and that's why I was that. I was joking because when when not so was saying they used to call Oracle the Barney and that's what the buyers used to call this stuff was the Barney but it was probably. What years was that that would have been like I think it was probably like late like late 90s like somewhere between like 98 and 2000 probably because the interesting part about the. You know a lot of the purple cuts that became famous in Northern California and kind of in our scene is that there's a lot of like people that claim things to you know about them but there's a very little like verifiable fact. Yeah right which is unusual for a strain strains that got that famous to stay that obscure for that long and there's a lot of competing things and there's there's actually a guy in Mendo I won't mention his name but. There was a there was kind of a cookie guy in Mendo who claims that he went up to B.C. and ended up smuggling clones back taped to his thigh in cigar in cigar cases like in cigar you know like. Like the tubes yeah the tubes and he taped him to his thigh this is pre when pre before Osama ruined flying. Yeah you know when you know when airport security got a lot rougher after 2001 but pre to that it was a lot looser and he swears the God that he brought these clones from from B.C. down to Mendo. Just just to be super clear I'm not making any claims to purple oracle and just joking. No I get it. Believe me well that's the thing right is that there are people that will tell you with absolute certainty that this is what it is. Yeah and then you start poking around in it and it be and there's holes and this and that it's one of the few things that that with purple oracle with great eight with lavender and things like that there really isn't a settled story. Yeah that everyone believes there's some competing stories and there's ones that like we're pretty sure aren't true. But you know for for as famous as it was and as big of an issue as it was in California for a while. Most of those most of not all but most of those purple cuts the origins are still kind of a mystery. It was it's cool that you mentioned purple star. Purple star is actually one of the baselines of purples for purple number one for shaman for a lot of the Dutch purples all came from that. Is it related to Viking. I think I think they all probably came from Viking because I think Viking kind of predates those and they were all pretty. I think they were definitely related because we got that cream soda to go you hear about that was totally out of that same family. They just you look at me like that's one of those old crappy purple Dutch outdoor screams. Positronics about a year and a half ago they they went into their their library mom seeds or their their parent seeds and whatnot and they were kind enough to take me out the parentage of purple star whatever they used to make it. And they sent me the seeds but they disappeared on the way here. I was so bummed because I was like I finally get to look at the parents of purple star like most people would be that stoked about it because it's kind of boofy and you know it would be it's interesting to me. It would be really funny. Honestly if if there's an element of that story is true because you know coming being in California when this is fast forwarding a bit so we can go back after but. One of the things that really made the purple craze and like 0304 05 really take off was that California was getting flooded by. You know beat by Canadian indoor. Yeah. And once brokers learned that the Canadian indoor was so much cheaper than California homegrown. They started buying it and trying to pass it off as California homegrown and making massive margins. And a lot of it was pretty midsy. You know it was just it wasn't flushed right it was grown with too high E.C. It was their best down here. It was it was also it was sealed in a in a vacuum sealer you know so kind of fermented a little bit like in in transport not that there wasn't some good stuff coming down but a lot of it was bad. And one of the things in California especially in the Bay that started the purple craze was that the purple wasn't Canadian. Like it was homegrown. You know and you knew it was from California because people were getting bumped by buying weed for 4400 that was Canadian that these guys were buying for two grand. Yeah. And making the difference. You know so it was like that was one of the things that started the purple craze in NorCal was there wasn't any B.C. coming down that was purple at the time. And so it was like it was marketing. Yeah it was early marketing. Honestly and and two fifteen had opened up in California enough that once it got into the clubs and once you know popularity spiked then it just was rolling and it was a it was a marketable thing. I think the beat the Beasters guys got a little bit of a bad rap just for you know that all the good stuff that went down just got called and passed Humboldt nobody question. And all the crap stuff just got all these Beasters so and I think they did sell they definitely did. Just beating there is a lot of Beasters got shipped down. I think we actually probably kept the worst Beasters up here because if you go the kind of backstory of like the commercial market here was always this cut called M39 which is like. I can't imagine anybody ever exported that but maybe they did and it was like this. It was probably just M39 from SSC which I think was a skunk right now. And it was just this rock hard orange like like they probably literally cut them at thirty nine days or something and I mean it was still to this day the worst weed I've ever smoked. You know you know what's so funny about that man is that these days people most people who smoke weren't around back then. And so there are a bunch of people that are you know there are some people out there that are they're touting that they have M39 reading. Residents one who's bringing back 39 and you know there's an aspect of it because most people all they remember is the name. Yeah you know all they remember is the name. One thing I wanted to ask you before I forgot is that when you were on you know before I before you and I had even chatted you had posted this picture on your IG of this old Northern Lights club. Yeah that was the first one I ever posted on IG. Yeah and I was wondering and that to me I would just want you know if you could expound on that cutting a little bit because I remember it where you were like oh you know this is from the late 80s. It descends from the seed bank era. We lost it but it was a staple for you know 20 plus years. Yeah that was the closest thing in my career that was I would consider like a long like our crew is like I said it was pretty rough so people didn't really keep cuts around and they were all chasing. Most of my I was never like super big into the commercial scene but a lot of my friends were like big like they were heavily into the commercial scene so they were chasing just no different than today everyone's chasing whatever the newest gelato crosses or something they were chasing whatever was hype so they never kept anything. And this and that specific NL clone was around our crew for a long time and it originally came from that same guy I was talking about before the papaya clone came. I mean it's kind of like my original partner when we were younger like we got started together we're still good friends today. And he was always like in the thick of things so that was he was kind of one of my kind of main connections because he hung out with some people I had zero interest in hanging out with but they always like good genetics and stuff and he had brought it back out from Nelson and they had they had gotten it there from one of my friends dads who lives just outside of Vancouver and was called Squamish. And yeah that one we could definitely trace back because it was literally like I know the guy came from and it was like his dad and it was from whatever like Adam I'm 87 or something like that it was right around like that time period and that one was totally it looked just like a lot of the NLs that we've grown but it totally had a completely different turf profile and was way way frostier like that was the first plan I'd ever seen that had like if you grew it right that picture doesn't probably do a justice if you grew it right. It was one of those ones that had kind of like remember on the white widows where the resin went like right to the end of like the sugar leaf like or even part on the fan it did that and it was just crazy Terps like I remember the one guy. One of my friends that used to move a lot of it and you like it would just use to keep it in his freezer and you'd crack the freezer and just like his whole house would smell and it was a really unique turf profile that I honestly can't even put a finger on I kind of wonder whether it's maybe when Neville talks about those juniper flavors it was maybe that but it was like it was a weird like kind of outer spacey type of flavor that I've never really had since and but that one was definitely like around our crowd for a long time because I remember like not keeping it and then being and I really want that or someone to be asking for it and I'd go find it and I could always like a friend of a friend's brother had that we just called it the NL clone and it made ridiculous hash and it made really ridiculous amounts of hash because it was kind of pretty leafy so you got a lot of trim but I remember just pulling like I can't remember what the ratio was but just giant honks of hash off that all the time. I was trying to put a picture of it for so everybody could see but it's I'm always interested in that kind of stuff because we have so few pictures that survive of a lot of those original strains and especially like you know ones that people found in those lines. And some lines we have a few pictures and other lines you know it's kind of a mystery. And I haven't saved just because you know what it reminds me of and it's not exact because I know it's a hybrid but the way that it's super frosty and the way that the top crowns it kind of reminded me of Bubba. Yeah I find all the NLs remind me of Bubba like so with the other ones that we had there it is right there. Yeah there you go. Yeah perfect. Yeah that that just reminds me and not exactly because Bubba is a hybrid or whatever but like it just reminds me of like that especially when Neville would talk about like a single Cola kind of small you know like almost yellowish at times very resonance short afghan. It really it really matches up well with his description of what his NL was. Yeah it might even grown slower than Bubba. It was a really super it was the squattest plant I've ever grown and I think because it was so old and it really lost a lot of bigger but it was brutal and I remember at the time we had like this really strong plant count. So this was kind of late when I was growing it and I used to grow it as trees into like a vertical scrub setup. There were six feet so six feet tall trees into like a scrub and it was just took for freaking ever to get it up to size. And I actually used to I used to actually spray it with really low doses of gibberellic acid just to make the internet like during the during the veg time. Yeah that's an old trick for squatting ones that's cool. So what kind of turf profile did you say it had? Honestly I could I it doesn't compare to anything I've tried now like I would say it was no stronger like it was similar to a lot of the modern stuff but I mean it's not in flavor but in like strength of Terps. So it probably had you know probably at least 3% Terps which was on but if you compare it to what was going around back then like that was it was totally another level than most stuff going around back then. It was a weird it almost had a little bit of a it was really hashy but it really had kind of like there was some fruit like almost like a grapey tone to it. It was just it was the one that I it's kind of like I would it was just really hard to describe it was kind of like oh gee there was a lot of stuff weird stuff going in there but that's honestly when I looked back that's one of the few that I'd like. Oh that would that one would still be cool to have and it would be novel now that it's something that nobody else nobody else has. I don't think it was necessarily better than anything that's around now but it would hold it still hold it hold its weight compared to like modern stuff which I would say most of the stuff from that era definitely wouldn't. Yeah I mean what what year did it end up kind of fading out and go missing. It would have been the exact one if you look at when Stephen Harper became Prime Minister of Canada. I was the last guy holding it and I got rid of it when he came in because he put all these crazy mandatory minimums and I couldn't hold my cuttings. I'm thinking it was probably like 2003 or something like that 2004 gone. Yeah they had it literally down to I think you're going to go to jail for five years for five plants or mandatory minimums so I that was the time when I was like okay like breeding and keeping lots of mothers kind of went out the window under under that dude. And since we're since we're on that that sort of era subject I have another IG post you made that I wanted to chat about which was I went out to the cannabis cups in the late 90s a few times. And one of the things I brought back which I wish I still had seeds of was the first year that they released Neville's haze. And I think it's actually one of the first things you and I chatted about was you posted these pictures of some old Neville's haze grows. And I think you got that you got that Neville's haze right around that same era right the late 90s. It was I think it was 2000 so it wasn't right when it was the first round of seeds that I got but it had been around for a little bit. But I remember exactly when it was because it was I'm pretty sure it was right around it was like 99 or 2000 and I think it got released in 98 so that's basically like the very first era of it. Yeah. Yeah it was when I first decided I kind of got out of like the whatever I was just branched out and was like you know what I'm just going to try growing some different stuff and I don't really care whatever it looks nice and stuff. So I just started playing around with a lot of different plants and that was one. So I started doing some hazes and that was one of the ones I think actually how we started talking was actually ortega because yeah. That too. Maple Leaf Indica as well. But yeah that Neville's haze was always a learning lesson but that was pretty I grew up I think I had three packs of that and I grew them all I actually got some mostly it was pretty jungley but I mean it was crazy strong like just like the extracts on that stuff were just scary. And yeah that's the picture right there. But I actually one of the cooler plants I've ever grown came out of that pack it was one that looked full on like city like really haze structure and the buds were little were dead on like nl five miniature little pine cone buds but they were literally like half a centimeter long kind of like little sativa buds but they were rock hard little Indica things and they were literally like look like little candies or something it was still one of the most bizarre hybrid expressions I've ever seen it tasted like at that kind of incency taste it definitely leaned more towards nl five but it was a cool cool plant. Yeah one of the things one of the things I liked about your description of it was I think you nicknamed one of those cuts party slayer because the high made so many people uncomfortable it would like kill the vibe when you brought it. Yeah so we had the time there is one of my friends was had that he lived just kind of an hour so north of Toronto and in this kind of pretty small town is like I was like 30,000 and he used to sell most of the weed to like the 20 something year olds crowd there and we had a batch of we just ended up having to we were just growing it for like hobby stuff and we ended up having too much every once in a while. So so some of those nevels haze would end up going into like the commercial market with no there's no names back then right so we just sell this crappy looking weed. And my buddy would would sell it in and everyone I think I think we're having. Alright which I don't know the story but it was it looked like crap and everyone was like thinking it was swag and yeah they would all puff that stuff and that was no we had a bad batch that didn't burn well. So they're all like really huffing on it trying to get the thing to burn properly and then they and no idea and you know it's got like a 20 minute creep on it. So they would all be trying to you know puffing furiously on this do be to try and get to burn properly and I think the nutrients has gotten mixed up because the you know we weren't used to growing like 16 weeks of TV's and stuff. And and then everyone get like super super high and and then the whole party would end and that was it became like legend for like a year or so there's all this nevels haze getting dumped into the so it was like they were literally that dude you used to sell like m39 which you could basically not get. High off of a little bit of that NL and then this the no burn the no burn. Yeah, you were telling me a story too I think about like your friends that were in construction and they got too high to even come off the roof. Yeah, so I used to have this one friend who was one of the heaviest smokers you'll ever meet and he always used to like. You know you got like super killer weed and most people back where we like holy cow like that was so good and you could never phase dawn like dawn was just I you could give him like the you know that bubble bubble hatch from that crazy northern lights clone. I gave him once thinking this was going to blow him away and you just like did this massive like dab of it and was just like it's okay like nothing would phase this dude and. him and one of his buddies had a roofing company and they hadn't seen him for like a year so I moved away from town and. I needed a new roof on my house so and I had this one of it like a really steep roof that was a little treacherous to be walking around and before they went on to read the roof he's like to get any weed so I had this. Neville's haze was Neville's haze mixed with Neville's haze hash it was like really strong this joint I probably did it purposely really strong just trying to phase dawn and. They smoked it wasn't even that big of a joint they smoked this thing and I just thought nothing of it because nothing ever fazed this dude and I was like where are those dudes like they've been up there for so long. So I yelled up and they like stuck their head over the roof and they're like yeah we just got to sit it out up here for a while. They were up there for hours just tripping on this Neville's haze hash. I mean I literally I have this clear memory of smoking what I would classify as a pinner of Neville's haze when I first tried it with two other people so I probably only got three or four good hits off it before it was gone. And I have this clear memory in Amsterdam of like walking out of dudes house and like gripping the railing for the six steps down to the road like gripping it with my life because I didn't want to fall. You know and like it mess with my equilibrium and like I was soaring high and it hit me in such an unusual way I could absolutely see like being like I am not fucking with that ladder at all. Like there is no ladder in my future for a while. I'm just sitting here where I'm at I'm going to sit where I'm at and I'm going to wait until the ladder makes sense because I have this memory of like like being like I can't go down these steps without this railing without assistance. Yeah like I needed and I was like you know I don't know 23 or something like that and it was totally nice weather they were dry steps and I was like I wanted to make sure that I had a center when I walked down. Yeah so it was definitely like the abstractive so haze is like I always find easily you can smoke if you smoke regularly like you smoke I find most people you just get hit every once in a while you can smoke haze. And it's like just because I don't think it's super strong it is but it's when you just smoke a little bit too much which is a lot easier when you're smoking like a hash joint or something. And it just you know creeps up on you and all of a sudden you're taking the you know the night bus downtown. But I have all the time I have people that smoke all the time that I'll give like that sweet skunk to and it doesn't look that great and they're used to smoking cookies and a lot of them have just never even smoked like proper haze. And you always hear kind of similar stories where somebody just smokes every day is like what the heck was because they just got caught sideways but maybe science will eventually tell you but if you you can be like very used to smoking a lot of like what we would consider high end strains these days like chems and bubba's and you know and and OG's and different things and there's an aspect to hazes where they just kind of hit you a bit sometimes like you're a newbie and you don't have a tolerance. Yeah, no for sure it's nothing that I generally I may smoke a bit more now but I remember back then I definitely couldn't smoke hazes every day. Like I remember thinking I was like this you know weed snob in the car only like hazes is the best but if you looked at my jars the Neville Taze sat there for a long period of time and the lights like went down real quick. So it was always more it was more like a mild psychedelic when you like smoking nevel seeds. I could get in the way of your day. Yeah, for sure. You know you could you know most weed I can smoke and it enhances my day but you know there's some weed and hazes one of them that can alter your day and send you on a completely different path than you were on before. It's crazy when you get not so or Tom Hill talking haze you could get them doing this for hours at a time waxing poetic endlessly about haze. I mean the real life changes say this right so that at that point I've been going to Amsterdam for four or five years at that point generally at least once or twice a year and most of the stuff that I got was not that great. I went through a lot of stuff and I tossed a lot of stuff some of the hybrids I made with some of the American stuff I had ended up much better and I kind of had this opinion that you know what we had was clearly superior. And then you know those hazes some of those haze hybrids that they have over there. That was the first thing where all of a sudden I was like maybe these old timers tales of like soaring psychedelic Colombian that you get tracers in your vision and your giggly and you have a hard time walking which I kind of thought was bullshit up to that point. All of a sudden I was like oh it's real. It might be rare you know but it's real. I've literally chased that high ever since I've had it you know the first time experiencing that I think that's common with a lot of people you know. And so psychedelic experience and that well some for some people to it makes them want to crawl out of their skin. Yeah yeah like it's not it's it's it's almost like a disassociated very uncomfortable like not used to it type of type of high so it's interesting in that regard. My experience started out with the roller coaster paranoia and by the end of the high is when the visual elements were started turning into a clear headed where you can see tracers with that that is just a whole another experience. So that's just what that's that's why it sticks with me because like like like dire worth was saying like he's got an unflappable buddy that like would be it would almost never give praise and then the guy smokes a joint and doesn't want to use a ladder for hours. I could honestly say he's never given praise ever except for the Neville's case that's the only time I've ever seen. That's funny. Yeah so that I always like that story you know because he was like oh no no no no ladder is going to sit right here while I'm safe. So one thing that didn't make it over into the US a lot that I did I personally am always interested about whatever I have anyone any of my Canadian friends I like talking about a little bit are the hash plants that made their way through Canada like the Renee the champagne. There were some other biker ones if I remember correctly. That were popular. Do you have much experience with those. Not a time so actually I actually just like Winston's just picked up the Renee cut off a friend of mine last week but I've never actually tried it. I've heard pretty mixed reviews on that but it's got to be one of the that's I was just talking to my friend about that when I got it was like it's been around since at least like 93 or something like that. So people like not a lot of stuff that gets held around that long but definitely there's definitely a lot of people like my friends like I didn't think it was that good. I heard Tamara say he didn't think it was that good. I don't know I never tried it. The other ones were kind of so that was basically from what I can tell. Yeah that was like a group of bikers and those were kind of their elite biker cats like for sure. So the story is again all this gets highly this is reefer man enters the picture so stuff gets a little. It's hard to it's hard to separate facts from fiction because he's very adept at mixing the. That's what I always disliked about people like reefer man is he actually has a ton of great information. Oh sure mix it mixes it with a ton of bullshit so you never know what's real. So he so anyways the story that he has which seems to kind of play out is there is kind of like a group of bikers. And on Vancouver Island that we're doing a lot of runs back then from seed. And the story is that it was import it was seed from import which I find it hard to envision that I guess maybe I've heard a bunch of different stories but definitely I think they all for sure came out of like kind of either north of Vancouver somewhere on coastal BC and I think almost all of those came from the same group there was like champagne. That's when the ancestors of like pink cush which was like King Queen and there was one called Jiffy pot maybe even that God but I think they all came out of the same group. And yeah like champagne I only saw it in I've never grown it I've had it in flower form a couple of times and it was really early like I remember like it was like 93 or something like that when I went through and it was there was nothing else like it like it was super high end. For the time I don't think it's anything like super special it's just like a really nice hash plant. But a lot of the Canadian ones are kind of based around those that kind of group like if you look at like the special K pink kush Kings Cross it used to be. There is a bunch of them that all they're kind of similar and it's kind of got a little bit obscured because what reefer man did is he crossed he took that king cut which was one of the little jet like original ones. Yeah and he crossed it with a whole bunch of different stuff so he crossed it with like a lot of like modern US stuff don't hold me to this but I think it was like MK also which is like an OG G 13 cross. He crossed it with I think at San Fernando Valley OG C line and a few other things and if you look at it now it's like I don't know is it real. So what goes around is a pink kush everyone is like oh that's the old king cut but I don't think it's actually necessarily a little king cut it's like it's crosses with the old king cut to modern kush varieties. And if I had to lay bets is probably leans heavily or towards like modern kush varieties than the king but I don't know I've never grown the original one but they were definitely the seeds the king seeds and I think when I was going to do a collab with why he's the compound before I knew much about compound. He ended up with them so somewhere there are king seeds still in existence. Don't know if they're across though. The way buffalo guys still definitely hold it like I've tried to fill out hybrids out of it. They definitely have a lot of those old cuts still like they definitely have the king but I know they've said they've told me that are said to my buddy that they're like the pink kush that goes around now doesn't look anything like the king that they hold and he's be partners with reef man so I'm sure he has the original king. Oh yeah I'm sure yeah he did a lot of that early work for reform and butter scotch Hawaiian which I ended up liking a lot. I know reform and always talked it down but I love it. You ever get to try that one over there. I generally have I did not I generally avoided anything to do with reform and I'm sure he had good stuff is just one of those people that just I just I just his his aura just passes through anything he touches for me and I just don't have to do with it. I can appreciate that for sure. You know there's a lot of lines like that that I didn't touch because of just the juju associated with it you know you never know some people have bad juju that just flows through everything they touch. I mean you know it's an issue in cannabis because a lot of the people that end up doing a lot of work. You start digging into them and you're like oh man like we really attract our community attracts a lot of quirky and some of that quirky is just quirky and some of that quirky is like you're like oh man yeah that's not that cool. Depending on your perspective. But it you know one of the things dire wolf that like I don't know if you talked about this on the thing you just did but Matt and I we sort of had this this gig where we were doing like sort of like the histories of the seed banks and stuff. And we were going to do some stuff on Canada and we ended up just not doing it because we both realized that neither one of us had enough of a base of actual information and history to like do it any justice. You know the characters involved all that I mean Canada is definitely sort of what I consider to be like the third wave of seed banks. You know not not just in terms of like seed brokers but you know just whole groups of people all of a sudden coming up with you know seed banks themselves and blends of their own stuff and blends of European stuff and there was a lot of that around for a while it almost. Dominated. Yeah. For a while. It did dominate for a while for sure. You know Federation. You know reefer man. Was it Joey. You know the islands. There was a lot. There was a lot of people up there. The one thing I would say about that that I think gets a little bit skewed and not necessarily a bad way but although I would say. All pretty much entirely the history of kind of what was coming out of cannabis comes from a handful of people it comes from. Chimera. Breeder Steve. Red from legends. And reefer man. Yeah. And maybe I'm maybe mixing a couple but I mean keep in mind those guys minus the reefer man like red Chimera. Breeder Steve they are often like the same crew. So what they're talking about when they talk about all this stuff I'm like that wasn't what was they you know we listen to them and you're like everyone was growing. You know sweet tooth and whatever they were doing legends ultimate indica and I'm like in my crowd and I said some of my friends were pretty big rollers. They weren't the only people that I was the only one that knew anything about that and I learned a bit from the Internet. Not from what was going on in Canada and I think that gets a little bit skewed where I think they definitely were like a representative of what was going on but that was definitely it was definitely far more diverse than it sounds coming from those guys. And I'm not saying they're being self serving it. I don't think they are. I just think if they're just telling their story and it was a small segment of what was going on. And the other big thing there like I said is that divide where they're all talking about what kind of was going on in lower mainland BC which is like the Vancouver area or also Vancouver Island where that other kind of can't which there is definitely a lot of growing there. That's where the most of the population is. But that Kootenai Nelson area is always been like the real bread and butter of like that's our humble and and what was going on there still to this day whatever's going like you go like on the coast. It's all like everyone's growing pink kush pink kush has been dominating that scene for like a decade. And then you go to the Kootenai's nobody grows pink kush they're all growing whatever something totally different like it's a total. And that breeder Steve Khmer crowd was really like a coast of Vancouver kind of based group. And then so there was other groups that were totally different. They were based out of the Kootenai's. But if you go back to this you're talking about all those most of those I think pretty much all those Canadian seed companies they were all from Mark Emery. Yeah they're all getting offered through him. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's definitely like I think that Federation next generation that Federation turned into next generation and that next generation gets still around. I've never met him. But I think that guy gets underrepresented and like he's still like he was one of the most of those Romulan genetics. I would argue all of the Romulan genetics going around in the US probably came from next generation and Federation seeds. I think so. But a lot of those ones that went through Emery were kind of just like not. I mean that's how those guys got started. It was like it was just knockoffs of knockoffs like I think they basically started as they were working with breeder Steve and ended with a bunch of breeder Steve genetics so they started. I don't know what story was but that's definitely Federation had a lot. It was a lot of like grapefruit and sweet skunk and the stuff that Steve was working with. Definitely. But I think they did some real work and they brought some other stuff like they were doing UBC chemo which is kind of a unique one. And there are some other ones like Berlin and some like kind of more BC centric ones. I'm trying to think through the other ones Jordan of the island is still around. I've never. Do you remember BC. Do you remember a company called BC grown. I do not. It was like I remember that one. It was early to mid 2000s. It was a dude named Jordan who ran it and I've always tried to figure out if that was Jordan from the same person. Yeah. Because it was it was a lot of the same stuff. A lot of the God but stuff like that. Because I just you know I I I come from an era where like you know basically like all those waves. You know I can't tell you how many times I read Neville's catalogs or Sensey's catalogs or the Dutch catalogs or all the stuff in cannabis culture. You know all the various stuff that Mark Emory would sell from the various seed companies and their descriptions. Because there wasn't obviously like there wasn't there wasn't Internet you know so much and there wasn't like a vibrant clone trading community and it was all very tight in your circles. And so if you wanted stuff outside your circle you would peruse the seed lists and see what sounded cool. You know for sure. And I the one thing I will say that in my opinion came out of that scene I couldn't prove it but I would lay bets that it did was the auto I honestly think the auto flowers all came out of Canadian genetics. So if you look at the sequence of events this is one that maybe a little bit biased to because I was kind of close to a lot of parts of it but there was originally there was that much which you guys probably heard that mighty might strain was kind of. And mighty might was it came from one of the Gulf Islands or just one of the little islands between between the just off the coast of BC was kind of that area had a lot of like draft Dodgers and like kind of drop out people would kind of go live on those islands. And it is actually a guy that I know is dad's group that was growing that and who knows if what it actually was supposedly like a Himalayan and it's like this really it's like a really big really Indica really strong central cola and some of the Latinos would go off automatically. And if you trace back in Canada anyways if you trace back pretty much every time somebody's like talking about some super early strain, most of them come back to mighty might you can just one of those ones you can just look at and you're like that's got mighty might in it I had a friend of mine sent me a picture a couple years ago he's like some acclimated tie strain he had been passed down through the generations doing I took one look at like that's mighty might but my my old partner used to do a lot of so kind of I think where that got popularized is in Mark Emery was selling some seeds of it and at the time my old partner was doing these crazy grows of it they had up in Northern Ontario, they were like living up in this cottage and they had. And so that was back then you could sell outdoor really easily. And they were doing these crazy outdoors in these swamps, and it was all it was kind of like almost as a land race so they were kind of back and forth between that Nelson area and BC so they kind of have like the best outdoor stuff that was going around Nelson, and they were crossing it all with their own stuff which was all pretty mighty might, and it would go off really early like you start harvesting in like July, and not all of it but it was like it was kind of like a land race so they would pop like, you know, 15 under 2000 seeds and grow them out and all these swamps all over the place. And they basically start harvesting like July the first ones would come and they'd go all the way into like the first week of October it was just like very, that's why I kind of call it, it's like a Canadian land race because it was just yeah diverse. And some of them were really good and you can never get away with it then because you sell bags of it I remember one of my buddies used to wholesale bags and he's like I can't take any more of this stuff he's like one guy tells me how great it is and the next guy's telling me it doesn't do anything and it was because it was all from seed and some of it was the auto flower stuff that wasn't that strong. But anyway so at the time that was when I was writing for Cannabis called Tillmark Emery's magazine I was writing for the Cannabis Culture magazine and I wrote an article about auto flowers. Because at the time I found a frustrating because there was definitely like some not like super good auto flowers but like decent quality like flower for the time like you could sell it wholesale no problem. And so I wrote an article about auto flowers and it focused a lot on mighty might and at the time there was literally not a single auto flower on the market other than a few of those mighty mites coming out of market and receipts like other than that I don't think a single thing had been released since Neville released those first ones like back in the 80s. Well I guess sorry since he still would have had that they're crappy whatever it was called that nobody bought. Ruderalis. Yeah. Ruderalis Skunk and Ruderalis NL and I was kind of frustrated because I was like no like this is actually has potential to auto flower stuff so I wrote that article. And it was like in a year that all of a sudden you started that was kind of when I think the low rider came out. And then and then you're up all started doing auto flowers and then father with them. But they yeah they all it became a big thing. I honestly think I lay bets if you trace that back. Whether it came from mighty might or something else I would lay bets that came out of Canadian genetics because we're the only people really doing it much back there. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty certain that the timing all made sense. What didn't make sense to me was that if I remember correctly low rider the dude joint doctor or whoever was the one that was originally saying they brought it. They said it was from a Mexican just random Mexican. It's like I don't know. You know like is my mighty might I remember growing early sativa from Canadian bred seeds and there were a few other ones. And they were definitely they definitely had some good auto flowering traits back then and there wasn't a lot being marketed at the time for auto flowering. One thing that's been pretty consistent in weed is obscuring the origin of where your stuff came from for a variety of reasons. We're certain you know that's one of the more disappointing things of weed is when I've kind of like I travel a lot through Canada so I kind of like just for work I've always traveled a lot. And I've kind of so I just know a lot of different people and I've always kind of chased genetics a little bit and whatever just when you and when you dig into pretty much everything you're just like oh it's just like another seat bank strange or it's just renamed M39 or like there's so I can literally count on like one hand how many like elite things or stuff that have a great story that when you dig into them aren't are anything actual unusual. Yeah that's that's that's typically it you know and especially once you get past a certain point in the years to it gets much worse you know when you're starting to realize that you're buying everything comes from one Spanish seed company during certain years you know that if you're buying that stuff and it did take a big change. And it's gotten much worse over the years so you know I guess that's why a lot of us are still chasing some of these old ones it's not necessarily because we think they're more dink but the genetic diversity is a lot better than just gelato times gelato or cookies times cookies times cookies times cookies or whatever time to get back for sure. And there was definitely some stuff when I think back that this was really unique compared to what's around whether people would actually fare that much. These days I don't know but it was definitely unique. Yeah I think I really don't have a place. Pardon me. A unique definitely has a place now I think at least among some circles that are left. What when I think of what's actually that I've tried that's unique over the years it's always and I'm not like big sativa you know what dude. But it's usually sativa stuff it's like more equatorial stuff that's kind of distinct like when I think back to like growing up. It was like the Jamaican was kind of the Jamaican import we'd always get was definitely like pretty unique. But this kind of stuff like that it's like I think a lot of the cushions and Indicas are pretty similar. I don't know I'm sure somewhere in Afghanistan there's some different stuff but everything I've really tried in that realm all seems pretty similar. So in that regard I mean and maybe some of that too is just because sativas are the rarest thing to get worked because Indicas are definitely like easier to grow and they're shorter and they're thicker and they yield more and they're more prone for ends. So they kind of a lot of sativas sort of missed like this inbreeding era of the last 20 plus years I think you know they weren't they weren't as big of a proponent of all that. It's pretty noticeable that I have one of my best friends grows out of I would argue probably more sativas than almost anyone like North America like he's just a hobby that he's just always by key pops. I bet he probably pops like a couple of thousand seeds a year of all like landrace or whatever it allow the ties so I try a lot of stuff from him and it's really noticeable is just how like unimproved it is like it's just like a lot of it I'm like totally has like the potential but it's just like when you really think of like it's just really unworked and it's just like doesn't have like it's just there's a lot of things missing and you're like well man if somebody worked on this for 30 years which is big you know it's at least that what a lot of those coaches have been worked on who knows what crazy stuff they can come out of them but I just find it's pretty unworked because I try a lot of stuff from him and not very much of it is very appealing. Yeah cannabis doesn't breed itself naturally towards like getting humans high the best as we've seen you know it tends to like try to breed itself towards emptiness. So it makes a lot of sense and I think a lot you know there's a there's a big landrace heirloom collection community you'll see it on IG you know like the people offering you know strains directly from Afghanistan and Pakistan. And that's great but I don't know that the larger community in general understands what getting into landraces and heirloom lines truly means and the kind of space you need to truly pick something wonderful out that that many people would enjoy you know it's a much bigger process. Yeah I think that's things to think that a lot of younger people don't get is like I'm like I've grown out some landraces but even like if you look back to old stuff just to be around even if it's been domesticated like we go back to a lot of the sea things. Horrible keepers out of packs like yeah there was some great stuff that came out of that but the consistency these days like you can buy most of the modern stuff like you could buy a pack of almost anything and find like something great out of 10 seats. And I think that was not the case back a long time you know in pretty recent history, even when I go through that that sweets gun clone that I grew out a lot of. And that was basically like I'm pretty sure it's just a plain old NL AC and if you pop like hybrids of that and you see like a lot of like the old NL five expressions to everyone always talks with how great they are I mean they were horrible they're a super betrayed us susceptible. It definitely has some nice stuff in there but I'm like, I don't remember like the last time I popped like a pack of modern season got something like rotted out on the, you know, on the stem under normal grow room conditions but that was pretty common back then. Yeah. Oh, I definitely think that I talk about it quite a bit like the difference between like a low. Can you hear Francis. No he's all frozen. Okay, so we'll probably pause it for a second until he comes back since he's in the middle of something and then I'll cut it. There is my connection has been cutting in and out strange I don't know what the deal is a few seconds before you jump back in so I can edit it. One, two, three. So I, I definitely noticed that like a lot of the original strains you could find real gems in it, but it did take a lot of hunting and a lot of work. And I'm not sure that like the modern seed poppers would be comfortable going through stuff that had so much junk in mids. I mean why would find the right thing. You don't have to spend that time or space anymore to find something that that fills that modern market like that that pallet so it's it's it's a lot to go out of ask someone to go out of their way to do these massive pops. It costs money time and space. And it's harder to sell now like back then or they could sell wherever wherever you popped out of that seat back someone was lined up to buy it I mean I wouldn't want to try to move in some of that stuff these days like it's I don't want to do it and make extracts like us but brownies and extracts. So now that we're getting into we talked a little bit about botrytis on buds and some of the stuff there. One of your specialties is IPM and we really haven't covered a good IPM topic on on the show. So I wanted to I wanted to go over some basic steps and some of the practices that you do to to keep your room clean to really work on your IPM. Do you want to talk about some of your basics. Yeah so I kind of like I were I said I worked in the commercial green house industry for like a long time like 30 years or something and most a lot of what I've done is in integrated past management. So also I would say don't always take lessons from me on how to do stuff because because I work in that sometimes I go through stages where sometimes I'm like a super disease a phone I'm like I don't want to take anything in and and other times I'm like whatever if I get something I want I don't really care that much. If I get something in because I want to like figure out like make sure I know what I'm talking about with getting rid of it. And the only ones that honestly out of all the ones that I see the ones that it's just like really like the number one thing I say is just don't get it. Like some like that's the easiest thing like thrips and spider mites to me they're pretty easy to get rid of the ones that are just like their their disasters is like is I mean powder milled is doable but it's I mean it's anyone has had it's pretty hard to shake especially if you've got a bigger operation. But the worst ones is cannabis athid in the root athid just because they're there's just unless you're going to go with us and they're easy to get rid of with a synthetic like a systemic. But if you're like legal and you can't do that or you don't want to do that they are essentially impossible to get rid of so I mean that and that's the one I always find so frustrating because people. It's like they're you know if it's a big like you can see them you don't even need a hand blend like a magnifying glass you can see them with your naked eye. And I've seen I've personally seen multiple times for people have literally like brought in like some stupid clone it definitely wasn't worth the hassle and ended up with like you know something that costs them millions and millions of dollars and they basically it's never get rid of them. But I actually just had a recent one that I've kind of moving so I'm kind of shutting down on my like so I'm not finishing out my flowering and it's like OK well I'm just holding mothers for like the next. You know probably a year or something because I got to you know sell my house and move and stuff so I'm like I'm going to start catching some clones of people on me or whatever now's the time I'll add them and then I don't really care. Whatever if somebody I got a year to clean it up. And so I got I got and everyone has given me a clone recently is going to be like oh that's me but because I'll tell everyone I've gotten a whole bunch of close different people in the last month or so. So it might not even you but somebody gave me powder humility on one of them that they told me didn't have any and I had left them. I had gone traveling for two weeks I thought it was fine and I left it and then I went back and I left my wife in charge and I came back and that one clone had blown up and gone everywhere so now I got no. Everywhere so that one's fresh in my mind and that's the one that I think causes a lot of people a lot of there's a lot of they don't really understand what's going on there. And I think they think it's systemic which is a chance it is but I think mostly what happens where you get it and they're like I just can't shake it. It's just because once you get spores everywhere in your room. They're basically impossible to get rid of like they last for years. Yeah I've seen I've seen that a bunch of times where people they think they've got it all under control and then bang like six months later. PM starts up again and I think that's really it might have been that it was in some you know one of the plants just had a bit living on it that they didn't catch. But I think a lot of times it's just there's spores everywhere and sooner or later you kick up a spore and and germinates on your plant and and then you've got it. But in that situation I believe that's that what had happened is that plant that I brought in from my buddy had was covered in spores. And the spores kind of you know they germinate on the plant and then they kind of have a little taproot that goes down into the plant. It's called a historian that basically like it's kind of like roots for powdery mildew. And it just like kind of sits there and it spreads like it's mycelium kind of across the surface it's growing on the leaf surface. And then what triggers powdery mildew like what people notice is when this when it spores when it's poorly it's right. And a lot of times what people think it's like a humidity thing but usually when it actually sporulates it's a stress event. So it's either that's why you see it in like peak flowering all of a sudden it'll go you'll see a whole room go off with mildew you didn't think you had. And in this case while I was traveling the you know in Canada usually when it switches from kind of summer to fall it'll go from like 85% relative humidity on average down to like 35. When the cool when the cool front hits and that's what I think happens is a cool front hit while I was traveling and bang this thing went off my wife didn't see it. And next thing I know I've got mildew all over the all over the all over the garden but definitely like those ones. So I guess my biggest thing is I am usually pretty careful like definitely if I was running a commercial thing I'd be way the heck more careful than pretty much everybody in what I bring in. That's pretty much all the time where it comes from it's people importing clones. And I mean the one that just really gets me it's it's a it's a can of a safer especially like they're just so easy to see and I think especially if the legal stuff. People start bringing in like, you know, more cuttings at a time than they can look through. Yeah, properly. And then it only takes one eighth and then you know, like one can of a safe and then three weeks can take down like a whole garden basically like it really they reproduce that quickly. For the for the PM what what in Canada I you know because I know down here like our crew tends to use like micronized sulfur spray. But I don't even know like an illegal market if that's something they can even use up in Canada is that something you guys use there do you have a different routine. Yeah, so no they can use it so basically what they're limited to. And again, I kind of work in both I've worked for a long time and also like commercial vegetables and commercial flowers so I kind of know what's dealt with in general. And what's different with cannabis is, in any other crop, it's always controlled by a combination of systemic fungicides and stuff like sulfur and, you know, potassium by carbonate or like the Silas subtilists or stuff like some of the common things. And what we've got stuck with in Canada, good or bad and I don't really have a comment whether it's good or bad it makes it challenging is there's there's no like systemic fungicides registered so basically, once you take the systemic you're just dealing with surface level, other than sulfur maybe you're just re dealing with surf surface level controls. So for instance, like, you know, people use like, I think rhapsody is one like a bacillus subtilist which is like a bacterial one that people that's a common one I think to use on both sides of the border. And it works great but it only controls like the surface level. So it's, and so it's not controlling that historian that's down in the that little root it's down into the plant. So basically you can kill everything on the surface. And then that little roots just going to keep it's just, you know, a week later going to pop up and slowly spread again you won't see it until it's for late so basically what they're stuck with in any of the legal places is just spraying every week. To keep them that once you've got mildew in your facility they just spray every week with usually they rotate they've got I think there's a hydrogen peroxide type spray. There's potassium bicarbonate spray. There's a couple of like oil type sprays which again these are all just ones that they're just like they control the surface level. The only thing that really has any systemic effect is sulfur. And that's one that people and I honestly don't know the real answer to this bubble. I will say for sure all the cleanest growers that I've seen in the legal market. Use a lot of sulfur they use sulfur literally some of the music right they use sulfur pots right to harvest. I'm not saying that's good or bad they will argue. I personally wouldn't use it that far they argue if you look at the sulfur tests like the leaf, like the tissue analysis. There's still not enough sulfur in the plant. That's their argument that they're just like it's just a plant nutrient they're still not up to optimal levels even with the pots burning. Bubble man and I honestly just don't know which is true on this bubble. You know a lot of people will say that the sulfur gets into and will destroy the flavor which I could definitely see you know what's like it just gets into everything. And bubble man back years ago he used to be the buyer of the Vancouver Compassion Club, and that was his big thing was he would make hash with it and you could smell the salt tell whether somebody had used Defender around their crop. And I would say definitely some of that had to be bullshit because I've literally smoked that guy that the one of the big LPs that I know for fact runs literally until harvest day. I bought some of their pink cush literally I know exactly what was done to it and I bought it from the legal store. It was covered in sulfur I could do something. Yeah, I don't know I personally am suss a little suss on it, but sulfur is definitely like the most effective thing out of those. And then what I find it kind of gets is a little bit dumb is like, we had, I think you guys did to a whole. Michael butanol thing with the first one legal there's a few people. It's called Nova up here. I can't remember what you guys call it. Eagle 20. Eagle 20. That's right. So, so a bunch of guys got caught using that there's this whole thing about how it makes like some, you know, when you smoke Eagle 20 it makes this cyanide I think with some some super toxic sounding thing. But then if you look in and I'm not telling people to go use Eagle 20. Yeah, I'm just saying I think it's been blown up a little a lot. So if you look at like the, the chemical that they were all talking about it was so bad, well cannabis already produces it like 1000 times the level that was in the Michael butanol spray. So I don't I'm not advocating people use Michael butanol I'm saying that that is how it's controlled on other crops. And I would argue like I personally wouldn't have a problem doing clones with Michael butanol and like knowing like I personally wouldn't have a problem cleaning up mother stock with Michael butanol I would never use it in flowering stuff like that. Sure. Even though we eat it all the time like 100% of all your foods covered in this stuff. Yeah. So yeah we got some weird stuff there it's the same kind of thing with aphids in Canada where it's really easy to get a I've seen both with Michael butanol and with aphid systemic chemicals where I've seen people test clean pretty not that far after they've done that that application. And it literally makes like it's literally with cannabis aphid it's it seems like one of those dumb things right seem like these LPC literally spent like, you know, $13 million on bio control for a year to control can to control cannabis aphid, and they could have literally controlled them with like one, you know, endeavor treatment for like a penny or something like that you get it seems like it's gotten a little bit crazy like it's like, okay, who who really cares if it tests as long as it tests clean. Do you really care whether somebody used it in their mother stock so I'm kind of always a pretty big IPM. I don't really believe in pure bio control or pure chemical or kind of believe in both. I see a big problem with a lot of some of that stuff if it's test if you're testing it and it's clean at the end of the day, who cares. So the issue with that with that what happens is any of those powdery mildew. It's just a general issue with a lot of chemicals is stuff gets resistant to them really quick. So I was just saying that not so like what what happens with stuff like that is it's just when you're spraying it too frequently and it just gets resistant to it. And what so Canada's got a lot more stringent pesticide laws than the US. So we've kind of always used a lot more, you know, bio control and like micro bio pesticides. So that where they would use if you look at a conventional cucumber crop that gets a huge amount like way more mildew than the cannabis crop gets. They would always rotate so they'll sit there and they'll spray potassium bicarbonate or like these soft stuff which you can't get so you can't get results for you can't get resistant to potassium bicarbonate. So they'll spray those every week and then every once in a while they'll throw in a NOVA that kind of just knocks the crap out of them and that's how they manage the resistance. Same thing with bio controls like you were talking about, you know, your spider reservoirs. That's how a lot a lot of crops are just they use the bio controls to spread out how often they're going to do the spray treatment just to keep them much more effective. I mean, yeah, in in Mendo as well 20 years ago you could spray people would use abometin. Some people call it avid or whatever else, and they would spray at once and they wouldn't see a two spot for a year. And then people got to the point where they would spray, they would dip their cuttings in it every run, they would overuse it to a point where there's a lot of mites in northern California that are immune to quite a number of the harsher chemicals. Well, I mean, like, like, like Dire Wolf was saying, I mean, the main introduction is by bringing in new clones. If they're only seen it once a year, it's probably because they're only bringing in new clones once a year to replace the old stuff and bringing in the new spider mites with it. I think for spider mites specifically. Go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say for spider mites and maybe maybe it's different because you're definitely in California is a very agricultural intense area. So but where I where I live I live in an area that's basically the size of like you kaya, but it's, it's got like 3000 acres of greenhouse. So it's just like solid greenhouses. And lots of different people own them. So there's, it's, I would argue, at least as agriculturally intensive as Mendo is, and everyone spray in different stuff. And what I've seen a bunch of times like I'll tell you a friend of mine owns a big cucumber greenhouse. And he had the same story that not so saying basically like when I first was going in there he was literally like tank mixing like, you know, six times the rate of avid with 10 times the rate of avid something for literally I'm not even making those numbers up like it was a lot of stuff and and that would basically buy him like five days like he was just in a mad panic spraying over and over and over again. And so he switched to using bio control for that. And within three months, you could and again I'll just elaborate on this a little bit but within three months you could go in there with a regular rate of fluoramide or a regular rate of avid. And it looked like you dropped a nuclear bomb in there like you spray once and it was just like wipe everything out. And so there's two things that can kind of go on with pest populations is the majority of what I've seen, especially with spider mites is like it's a it's a short term selection pressure so as soon as you take that selection pressure which maybe spring avid all the time away for a while. There's nothing selecting for that in the population so it just goes back to being susceptible. You do get sometimes if you look at other pests like white flies get example there's a type of white fly from down from southwest it comes from and it comes from those really agricultural intense areas where they're getting sprayed a lot. And in those cases, there's a lot of resistance to insecticides has actually become fixed in the population where it doesn't matter it's just like every single one, just like if you're bringing auto flowers and you got to the point where everything is auto flower. We can't read that out. But I haven't seen that a lot. It's definitely possible with mites. I have not seen it. I've seen it with white fly. And that's about it. It definitely couldn't happen with other stuff, but most of the resistance is generally local. It's generally because the, like the people on that farm have been over using. It makes sense. I what I what I find in Mendo is when because spider mites breed more rapidly when the temperatures go up and the humidity goes down. People tend to like, you know, especially inside and stuff like that they really tend to get beat up in summertime, and then they tend to get ahead and winter and they lose again in summer. And, you know, and then there's a lot of things to where people used to overuse all those chemicals, especially when in the 215 era, the clubs only tested for parts per million. People had it figured out like how close you could use certain chemicals and still test clean when you took your product in, and then they moved it to parts per billion. And that changed things a bunch. And, you know, and so now obviously all those things are banned. And you can't use them at all. And so, you know, people have have gone to bio control or they've gone to pet, they've gone to bugs, they've gone to like simpler methods. I think, you know, with very degree that's definitely what that's definitely what's happened in Canada with the legal market. But it just generally everyone uses as much like there's definitely some people spraying some nasty stuff in the black market, but most of them are pretty. They use, they, they're pretty IPM like using a lot of benefit. Bio control, but the one that I just find there's just there's some things that bio control just doesn't have a great answer to, and cannabis aphid is one that is to say it has great answers like there's tons of stuff that will control cannabis aphid really well there. They'll never get rid of them to understand, you know, gets expensive. There's some that I'm just like, I personally just can't envision like long term not like there's just not going to be a bio control that's going to control them cost effectively in life. So I mean, there's a couple like that, but most of them are pretty, pretty control. I think probably what you've got going on in Mendo is a climate thing to where it's just really yeah. 10% bad climate like where where it'd be hard to make bio controls work properly because you got really low humidity all the time. But sorry, the other thing I was going to mention with the spider mites that one of the most common things that I see is spider mites, they go into hibernation under short days so they're going to what's called diapause. So basically what I see happen is really common is someone will get bad spider mites and then they think they got rid of them, but just, you know, a whole bunch of the population is just like hiding you know in their electrical outlets and you know any little crevice in your room in diapause and they'll do that like kind of. So basically, they're going to go cycle just in and out of diapause and they might disappear for like two months up into your room somewhere. And then you think it's all clean. And then you're like where's all these spider mites come from and that's what it was. Cannabis aphids, I can say for Mendo, it's really the first new pest that I've seen. And probably the last, you know, them and Russet mites honestly are the two new things that have come along really within the last like five to seven years. Yeah, for sure. You know, and cannabis aphids I've had experience with lots of other types of aphids before cannabis aphids just breed so unbelievably fast. And they're all female and they all are pregnant and their and their embryos have embryos. So they just replicate at such a rate like you were saying there's lots of things that kill them. But you miss a couple and give it a few weeks and they'll be back to crazy levels again. I don't think most people describe I can't tell people enough times they don't get them. They're literally the worst thing you could ever have. Like, so I'll give an example of just how bad they are is I had just on a personal grow. So I was doing some, we were doing some trials somewhere for work cannabis aphid. And I must have had to come from here, but I must have ended up with one on my clothes and couldn't have been more than one or two aphid because I don't even think like I would never walk right from a place like that into my grow room. So but somehow a cannabis aphid can that was the only place it could have come from. So cannabis aphid can only go from cannabis plants, right? So if you're like, whatever, live in it somewhere where there's no cannabis plants around and you get cannabis aphid, like you brought them in on cuttings 100%. Or like someone dumb like me brought them in on their clothes from a place that that cannabis aphid. And at the time, so I was just playing around with everything and you could control them to kind of like low. So you could keep them at a dull roar pretty easily with soaps or bio controls or like we were using the lay swing. I did a bunch of different stuff. It wasn't hard to keep them fairly under control, but to get rid of them was next to impossible because you literally have to get rid of every single one. And I literally had to take my entire collection down to like four little clones and spray them almost to death with silk to get rid of them until they were entirely clean. Like they're so on a commercial thing. It's basically impossible. You could never. I don't think it's possible to get rid of them. The one thing I would say that I have seen and I don't know what the exact answer to them is, is heat treatments. So with the crop in, I've seen it. The only people I've seen actually get rid of them completely used to buy a heat treatment. But maybe if you can back up a little bit. So why they're so bad compared to, you know, a lot of people you'll get like an aphid on your cannabis crop and then they don't do anything. That's like pretty common. So a lot of pests are adapted to the crop species. So for instance, on tomatoes, don't get a whole lot of aphids. And most, most times on a tomato crop in a greenhouse, you'll get aphids that'll come in and they just don't kind of get going a little bit. And then you just disappear by themselves because they don't like the host plant. And every once in a while, you'll get one that's adapted and then it's like, look at it. It's basically the same as cannabis. And with cannabis, if it is just highly adapted to that, that crop. So as soon as they get going, they're, they'll go like, they'll go like crazy. But yeah, if you go back to the heat treatment, that's one of the things that actually came from the black market where I don't know what in general, but I was who's kind of spread that around in Canada. And I got it from the black market and you're some black market people that were getting, you can get these heaters that they use in hotel rooms to kill bed bugs. So if you heat up a room to like, you know, about 45 or 50 Celsius for about five hours, it'll kill everything that's in there. And some guys were in the black market, we're playing around for that for broad might. And it doesn't work by the way. But we also put ended up playing around with it for cannabis aphid and it does work pretty well. And the thing is like, you can really master crop cranking those temperatures and the guys that I know that have figured it out, obviously they won't tell anyone they did, but it's something to do with heat treatments. And it's something with playing around with like those high temperatures like 45 Celsius or something for a few hours, enough to make them all dehydrated. So there's definitely answers that I think we'll get figured out because I've definitely seen a few people that have done it. But yeah, for most people, I'm like, just take a good look at your cutting before you bring that into your place because they spread so quick. You know, they can actually in California, they transfer by air, you know, from just different because there's so many outdoor gardens. And really what happened to us is it was Oregon's fault. Oregon had hundreds and hundreds of acres of hemp once we made hemp legal through the Farm Bill, federally, and then the hemp market, the CBD market collapsed and people had literally thousands of acres of hemp that was going to be worthless. And so they didn't implement any IPM. And some of these cannabis aphids took over and just replicated at a rate that was never before seen. And then they just started spreading like wildfire from there. So basically that's exactly what's happening. So cannabis aphid needs to go from a cannabis plant to a cannabis plant. And generally, I've seen most of the time it's from imported cuttings, but you can definitely get that. So basically when they, they don't usually have wings, but when they run out of food, a food source or they get too many, they'll develop wings and fly somewhere else. So yeah, if you've got a lot of growers near you or hemp fields and stuff, you'll get flyers. But root aphids actually worse. So at least with those ones, like with cannabis aphid, you're like, okay, well, at least if you know if you're away from everybody else, or if you screen your greenhouse or screen your grow room, like do a good job in your grow room, you're probably not going to get them. And even if you can screen them, probably not getting them in your grow room from like a hemp field, unless you're like in taking directly out of the outside. But root aphids, the problem is they're actually worse because they're an actual quite a widespread pest that lives on a lot of different plants. So you can get root aphids from, I don't know, all the host species, but you can just get them from like weeds at such a place. So that's, but it's interesting because I'm the same thing as like when I grew up, most of the time it was just like, it was, you know, thrips and spider mites up until PM, the whole PM outbreak kind of blew up, I'm guessing probably on 2000s or something. And then all these new ones, the, you know, hemp, russet, my cannabis aphid, root aphid, and then obsolete and viroid, they're all like came out of a legal thing. It was just from increased sharing of genetics material for sure. It was very poor practices and it was people stopping maintaining their own mothers and then buying and trading amongst their small group of friends and going to centralized locations like dispensaries or stores or nurseries and just for the ease of getting their plant stock somewhere. Well, you know, originally what we saw was just from people, it was just from, you know, black market channels opened up more and people were sharing clones a lot more than they used to, because like, for instance, in that, that Nelson BC area, that was where hemp russet might first showed up in Canada that I saw, and that was from clones that came out of Colorado that got brought up. But I'd say in Canada where the bigger problem has been, it's, it's in the nursery thing was kind of stage two of that where now, because it's still legal, most people are buying from nurseries. And it's like, whatever that I do hype clone is, you got to get it from this one nursery and then people are buying it. I'm like, dude, you don't buy it from that place. Like you're going to get all kinds of stuff and they buy it anyways. And all of a sudden they've got cannabis, a food pops late and then everything else. That's definitely been the second wave is those those legal nurseries, which is I think what you guys are seeing in California a lot too. That was what I was going to comment on was the legal nursery aspect. Like, you know, different different nurseries specifically in California, when a hype strain would go off, there would be one major clone nursery supplying millions of those clones to all the different dispensaries out there. And if HLV was just in one, it takes no effort at all to just ruin every room that it touches. So yeah, that's been a massive explosion, the secondary nurseries, the legal nurseries, all that major pathogen vector. The thing with with hops late is it's again, I've never dealt, I've seen it, I've had a bunch of buddies that have had it pretty well. And I kind of know I've dealt with other like, you know, vegetable crop viruses and start viroids that are similar to that. And viroids are usually really easy to control because the nice thing about it is like, they can't persist outside of like plant saps. So they're not going to just sit on your like, you know, floor for a long period of time and then reinfect like a lot of us. So when you see those people that is just like everything in their shippings got hops late envoy or like something seriously wrong, like it's just really bad. What I think happened is people, you know, people would use similar scissors or similar razors, or you know, what cloning would spread it really badly, I think in a lot of those nurseries. And it would go from being on just a few plants to being on hundreds. Yeah, almost all the hops late and viroid in my opinion, there's definitely some that's been spread from seed. But I think the vast majority has just been spread from, you know, some dude using the same cutting knife on everything. Yeah, it seems to be how it's rapidly spread and the water liquid contact between root systems. It sounds like that's another vector. That was a new one that I heard when on your guys, when you had that lady on it was interesting to me because I'm like, man, that makes it, I don't doubt it either. But I'm like, man, that was a lot worse. I've watched it happen in action. It's pretty crazy. Yeah. And then she, you know, one of the interesting things she brought up was just how like leaf tissue, it could be hit or miss, whether or not it showed up on testing. But root tissue, it was like a hundred percent. If you had it, it was going to show up on if you ripped off some roots and tested those and how it moved through the plant, you know, so and we've definitely had buddies. We called it dudding back then. I don't know if it was hop late. But we definitely have had buddies that like it ripped through their whole scene basically through runoff. That was what that was. That was how it got to me. That was a really good episode that you just like that interview. She had some really interesting information and I hadn't heard before. It totally makes sense, but that's it's it's kind of a different thing because most it's not something you see in a lot of other cases because for instance, like in, you know, greenhouse vegetables, everything's getting run through like all the run. Like they do research, but I mean, everything's getting it's there's not a lot the way they're set up. Everything just goes right, you know, they're all in Rockwell slabs and it just basically goes directly out of that one slab into the, you know, the runoff gutter and then it gets run through like ozone treatment and everything. So you're not getting viruses recirculating like that. I think it's kind of like it's partly to do how a lot of people are set up. Definitely takes a window to like no till dudes when you're when you're like, oh crap, you get obsolete and viral it in there once and you're basically stuck with it. Dude, there was a there was a thing, you know, the DNA was part of it. And they had they were one of the first people that had like huge greenhouse scenes in Salinas, California when legal first happened. And they did all these like two foot deep five foot wide 100 foot long beds everywhere and all these greenies. They brought in rude aphids on their plants very first run. And they basically infected these living soil beds with rude aphids. And then they struggled for a couple of years and then they went to one gallon pots. Yeah, they couldn't get rid of them. I have, I personally wouldn't do I have one of my good friends is a big living soil guy and I've actually seen him for sure. David's in his place and they've never got going like I don't think he ever gets rid of them, but they don't actually cause him any problem. And I think it is because the living soil kind of keeps them in check. But yeah, I don't I don't know 100% on that. The one thing I would say on hops late and by right those like one of my friends, he runs a legal place that was the first one in Canada that I saw that got it really bad. Like they had to like shut down the whole they had like a new startup got it all rolling. They did like one crop and we're like, what the heck is going on here? And they couldn't figure it out. And they finally they were there before anyone really knew what ops late and by right is. And he's like, dude, it was a disaster for them. Like, but he's like, it was actually super easy to control. He's like, literally as soon as you got rid of, they literally just got rid of all the plants. They didn't even sanitize. They literally threw all the plants out, waited a week, put fresh plants from a tissue culture and they've never had them again. And he's like, you could easily that's it. That sometimes that's it. You know, some of our friends just said, throw it out, start over the quickest way through it. And what depends on your setup? Probably now that you've got that old runoff thing set up on Rockwell cubes and they probably had like a research. Like I said, it's pretty standard in a lot of those setups to have ozone in line that kills anything like that. So it's going to limit how much it's going to spread. But he said he could easily, he's like, if I had to do it again, I wouldn't even have pulled the crop. He's like, I just would have like watched, you know, maybe did a good job testing his mother's and then just going, oh, that one's got it. And he's just, he's just like, just from sanitation. Like don't use the same knife from plant to plant. And he's like, I'm totally confident that I could have done it. But he's the one of the guys I know you were talking about whether it could come from seed or not. I've seen firsthand the lab test that he got. So that was what was kind of sad about that whole thing is that dude throughout his whole clone collection. When he started that license place, because he was worried about bringing in some weird pastor virus bought in all fresh Cali seed and started that whole legal place from there. And that's where his obsolete environment came from for sure. And he showed me test packs of like tests from some of the packs that he got that tested positive. So there's no doubt some of them are getting. Brutal. Brutal. Brutal. You know, she also mentioned, or I think someone in the chat at the time mentioned pollen and it traveling on pollen. And I didn't, I'd never even taken that into consideration. Like I've done it now pollen transfer. I don't know if it's possible, but I probably would for somebody like me who keeps a lot of a lot of old a lot of old clones that are not currently popular. And it's hard to get people to back them up for you and help because if there's not a financial incentive they're not particularly interested. It's really scary because there's there's some things that are really nice that aren't very well spread out and can get ruined and I mean we have good friends of ours that lost some pretty old and some pretty rare things. Before the hop latent things even known we just called it dudding. And people didn't know what precautions to take. And so I'm pretty worried about the combination of rude aphids and Russets and hop latents and and even stuff like you know the that rude aphids can spread hop late. Yeah, I don't know that that's I think they probably can I don't know that that's actually been proven 100% of you see I don't think so either but I wouldn't like. It's pretty likely so there's a lot of kind of myth about that what I my understanding is something like thrips or spider mites is really they're not thrips are but virus carriers but from my understanding from this actually came from one of the someone it's like PhD guys in in virology like no way more than I do they told me that there's the chance of thrips carrying hops late and virus is almost next to nothing. I think aphids is definitely quite likely, and even if it's like to me everyone's right now. So caught up in hops late and virus if you have like, there's a million other viruses out there that are just as bad that for sure aphids carry and thrips carry some of them too. But aphids are probably the number one, like virus vector in agricultural. Oh, we've been getting there's this stuff that's been spreading around beat curly top virus. Yep, and it gets spread by it gets spread by leaf hoppers. So there's and that's one of actually one of one thing I'll mention, because I think it matters is, you know, in the in the old days, when everybody was hiding in in small and medium size indoors and everybody was up in the hills and tucked away. A lot of this stuff didn't spread so much and now that we've gone legal and people are going into all these traditional ag areas to grow cannabis. All those traditional ag areas are rife with things that cannabis hasn't really grown next to yet. Yeah, and that's one of the things I don't think people like I said I live in a really agricultural intense area so basically there is all this greenhouse is in corn fields and like it's we've got I think it's 97% clear cut for agriculture where I live. So what's interesting is I've seen it play out a bunch of times like for instance like on tomatoes tomatoes never used to get thrips so greenhouse tomatoes, they didn't get thrips. And then all of a sudden, one year thrips are like this massive issue on tomatoes, and they never went away just kept kind of continued and if you trace back what it was, it was they started growing wheat. And so in the fields around the greenhouses they were growing wheat and wheat's got lots of pollen and thrips love it. So because there's like food source and so you get these giant levels of thrips right beside your greenhouse. And when you get a situation like that, and I've seen this with a bunch of different pests, most 99% of the thrips don't like tomatoes, but sooner or later you get one that does, and then or two that does, and then they breed, and all of a sudden you've got thrips adopted to tomatoes. And that's a whole different story. And that's any time you get agricultural intense areas, that's what you get is these jumps of a pest that doesn't necessarily normally like cannabis or whatever, that when you know when you grow, you know, 10 gazillion white fly right beside a cannabis crop sooner or later, you know, a couple like cannabis and they have babies and then bang, you got a whole new pest complex to deal with. It just sounds like a never ending cycle of pests, pests, pests and probably more are going to be entering into our cannabis fear as it gets bigger, more corporate. Oh, certainly widespread. And goes into all those areas that have all those different pests and then life adapts. You know, well, the one interesting thing like a long time ago used to be a flower grower so I used to work at a really like a pretty big ornamental greenhouse we grew like a lot of different types of flowers, like different species. And one of the more interesting things that I saw there is we always had like, you know, this type of this variety that always just was never happy right and you're growing so many different things you could never be nothing was ever perfect right. And one year we were just like we just took all the. We just did a broad sample for virus for this specific virus. Just pretty, I would say best is the canvas one as well it was called the INS V impatient necrotic spot virus and it's a thrips spread virus. And what was interesting is when we did a broad analysis of like all of our plants, all the plants, pretty much all the plants that we were like always having problems was like I can't figure out why this one will grow this one's always got pH problems it looks like they all had INS V so it was all this like basically like 90% of all of our. What we thought was plant cultural problems was actually that out of virus and doesn't necessarily show the same all the time I would lay bets that's probably goes on in cannabis a lot. That could be a lot that could be a lot of what people call when people think about like genetic drift or clones get old and tired. And they don't want to root well anymore and they don't want to grow well anymore. They could have just picked up some kind of pathogen that they don't have a way to detect. Well I want to keep everything going and I think we're going to have to do a whole another part to this because it's going to cut us off right at two hours. And yeah, I mean I think we could do a whole another show out of all this so. Is there anything you want to plug before done. Yeah, I mean it's good. Is there anything like the plug dire. Now I got nothing to plug in those good it was a good talking. It was an enjoyable chat for sure. Yeah we could have kept going forever except it's going to cut me off I hate that. So we really appreciate having you dire we're definitely going to have you back if you'll have us back and you'll be back on. And I'm sure everybody will be enjoying it and we appreciate all of your tips and tricks with IPM. It's one of the most requested things we get. Yeah not so you got anything you want to plug just always I appreciate everybody's time everybody listening and tuning in as we explore different stuff so much appreciated. Alright thanks everyone.