 And thank you to everyone that has joined us for today, a Monday, a brand new week, a wonderful opportunity to start our week off strong. Julie and I are thrilled to have Boris Kievsky joining us today. Boris is the chief storyteller and also a nerd, nerd for good. And so glad to have you here, Boris, to talk about this topic. Again, as we wrap up the end of the year and start a new year, storytelling is really big and critical for all of our nonprofits. So I'm interested in learning from you here today. Julie and I want to make sure that you know who we are if we haven't met you yet. Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm the other nerd today. I'm Jared Ransom, your nonprofit nerd, CEO of the Raven Group. And again, we are so appreciative of the continued support and partnership with our sponsors. Thank you also to Bloomerang. Steven Shattuck was the one who suggested that we have Boris on as this, you know, really deep expert in today's conversation. So thank you to our sponsor for suggesting today's episode guest. And again, Boris Kievsky, thrilled to have you, chief storyteller and nerd for good at dot org strategy. Welcome, Boris. Thank you so much, ladies. I'm excited to be here today. And yes, thank you to Steven for the introduction. And it's going to be fun to nerd out with you guys about storytelling and how nonprofits can really make the most of it. If anybody is interested, by the way, I'm going to compile some resources. I've already compiled them. They're up on my website for storytelling, some of the stuff that I'll mention today as we talk. But if they go to dot org strategy.com slash TNS for the nonprofit show, of course, then they could get quick links to all of this stuff. I'd like to make things as easy as possible, as frictionless as possible for people. Okay, what are you doing for the rest of my life? Because you're the dream guest. So just keep me caffeinated and we'll keep going. Well, you know, in the nonprofit world, there are a lot of stories. And that's one of the things that engages us. And this has been bandied about, I mean, everybody's talking storytelling storytelling, but what does it really mean? And this is why I'm super excited to have you on today. Because I don't think that we understand fully what this actually means. And so I'm wondering if you could start with how we are framing the narrative and like what this means. Yeah, so you're absolutely right. It's become buzzy to talk storytelling. And it means a million things to a million different people. And it's kind of come this quagmire of a subject, which really kind of bothers me to be honest, because storytelling is a few things, but it is all specific and it is all coherent. And before we even get to like how to frame the narrative, which I'd love to talk about, because organizations definitely need to focus on that a lot, I do want to define what is storytelling, at least how do I look at it? Because I don't want to say that I'm the ultimate export on everything that has to do with storytelling in the world. My mother might tell you that, but I'll humbly deny. So storytelling is essentially how we communicate, but also how we relate to each other, how we understand things. We like to frame things in our minds, speaking of framing the narrative, in a causal structure. Okay, we want to say that, oh, this happened because of this, and therefore, this is going to happen next. We like to see that plan and that line in space time, if you will pardon my physics nerd neurology. So when we, there's actually been some studies that say that when we dream, we see little snippets of things, we might even just see flashes of things. But as we wake up, our brains instantly try to put them together into a cohesive narrative. So by the time we're talking to anybody about it, we're thinking, oh, this is my dream, isn't it exciting? And you could do an exercise like this where you could basically take three pictures, any three pictures on the internet, and your brain will try to form a story. So what is that story? It's a beginning, a middle, and an end. And combined, excuse me, it tells a narrative, hopefully a good one that's going to engage the viewer, the listener, the reader, whatever it is, and put them in the point of view of the hero of the story. It's actually baked into our DNA. And feel free to interrupt me if I'm going way too far and nerding out too far. No, that's great. I think it's really important that you said that because I think a lot of times in the nonprofit sector, we feel we use storytelling interchangeably with tug at your heartstrings. Yeah. So good stories can tug at your heartstrings. They don't have to every time, but they can tug at your heartstrings. They are essentially, look, there's, I love reading all kinds of fun stuff. And there's an author, Yuval Noah Harari, who wrote a brief history of mankind. I think it's called Sapiens, a brief history of mankind. And in there, I was stunned and thrilled to see him credit our survival and are becoming the dominant species on this planet, because we're not the strongest. We're not the fastest. We're not anything, but we are best at storytelling. We can relate to each other and form societies because we can tell stories. And when we do, we can't help it if I were to tell you a story right now about my childhood, even though I don't think you guys grew up in Ukraine. You don't look Ukrainian or Russian. But you would be able to relate to me. If I tell it, well, you'd be able to put yourself in the shoes of a little Jewish boy in Ukraine, not far from Kiev, hence my last name, and empathize. It would release oxytocin. It would release if I'm telling you, you know, certain scary things, other neuro neurotransmitters, that you would have to put yourself there. Because we were able to do that, we were able to tell each other, oh, lions are bad, don't go get eaten. And so to this day, we can use that same technology, if you will, because it's tech baked into our brains to tell stories that connect us to each other, to communities across space, across time, across media, across languages, and really form a connection that can inspire people to action and make the world a better place. I think for me, you hit the nail on the head when it came, because you're right, I did not, I was not raised in Ukraine. But I do have family connection, but really the relatability. And I believe that's what we're all looking for. I mean, that is a common need. It is a, you know, basic human need for us to feel that connection, that societal, you know, community. And really looking at, you know, as we tell our stories for our nonprofits, perhaps defining that common vision that is so relatable. And there's so many ways that we can tell that story. As Julia said, and you confirmed, yes, maybe it is tugging at the heart strings. But how do we, you know, tell a really good, you know, beginning, middle and end that helps to define this common vision when it comes to that relatability, Boris? Sure. So when you're talking, when we're talking about storytelling, we're talking about content, right? Content that we put out across all kinds of media, social media, websites, you know, shows that are live on air across all kinds of streaming platforms. And we need to be very aware of who our audience is and what they're going to connect to. Whenever I've worked with clients, and I used to work more with for-profits, now I work almost exclusively with nonprofits, and I say to them, well, who is your target audience? Who is your avatar that you're trying to speak to? Invariably, they all say, oh, everybody. Everybody should care about my cause from age eight to age 108. My cause is super important. And yes, you know what it is, but no, not everybody's going to care about it. We have a million different things pulling at us in different directions, and we have different things that we are primed for, that we are sensitive to, as we are going about our lives, that if we come across the right message at the right time that resonates with us, we're going to connect to and then hopefully take action on it. So when it comes to defining that common vision, there's a lot of tricks to the trade, if you will, but it's making it super clear what your vision of a better world is. And that starts with the beginning of the story is, what's the world look like today and what's the problem? And what's the problem specifically from your point of view in your specific world? Because we all live in different worlds. As much as the earth is one small ball of gas that is overtaxed at the moment, we are all living in our own little world, our little community, our family, our nuclear family, they're all worlds. So connect to me on a level where you're defining a world and you're telling me what the problem with that world is. And that might be, you know, I love classic story structure. I've got here my Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader sitting here as well as R2-D2 and C-3PO. But you know, who is the hero and who is the villain? And I'm gonna talk more about the hero in a minute, but a villain can be Darth Vader. It could be a person, oftentimes if you're talking politics, you frame it that way, but it could also be global warming and weather, as we were chatting about earlier, right? That could be a villain and the bigger your villain, the more it could relate to feeling it, the more people you're gonna unite around me in a common vision for the future. I love that. I have never heard anyone frame it quite like that. That, you know, what's the problem? What's the villain? Is it homelessness? Is it education? Is it health? I mean, we could go on. There are nine main sectors within the nonprofit world. A fascinating way to look at this and to almost, I don't want to say narrowing it down. But for me, when I hear you frame it this way, it also seems like it's easier for us to call our donors to action. Well, it is because you're going to make that connection to them in the first place. And then, so this is the transition from defining that common vision and that villain to calling your donors to action. You've got to know who they are, and you've got to understand that they are the heroes of the story, that your donors, your supporters, your volunteers, your clients, they are the heroes of the story, not you, okay? Luke Skywalker is the hero of the story. Ben Kenobi is the organization, Obi-Wan is the organization that's going to get them there. It, you, your role is to take them from the potential hero that they are and amplify their innate desire and abilities to a whole new level where they could really become a superhero. For something that they care about, you've got in that common vision. So you need to, once you've gotten them to identify that, yes, this is a problem I care about, yes, I think this vision is a good one that I want to devote some of my resources. And resources, by the way, are not just money, money, money, money. Resources are time. Resources are voice and resources are money. So voice, I mean, you know, sign a petition or share this message, right? Whereas time might be volunteer, come to an event, all of those things. There's so many more, I've got lists of them that people can ask for. Too often, I see nonprofits either not do a call to action at all, which is just possibly the worst thing you could do, or just ask for some big donation right off the top. You've got to be mindful of where your hero is in their journey, how far along you've taken them. And then you've got to give an appropriate call to action for their stage and their journey related to the piece of content that they just consumed from you, that you just shared with them, whatever the story is. So if you're talking about the events of this weekend and the disasters happening in the middle of this country with the tornadoes, then you want to tell that story, and then you want to say specifically not, oh, donate to help people. No, it's donate to help these people right here right now. And here's how, right? Give them a very clear call to action that makes it easy for them to put on a cape and be a superhero for something that they already care about. I am curious. One of the things you said, and we all hear it, is our avatar is everyone. It's from eight years old to 108 years old and even beyond, right? If someone is that lucky, do you recommend that we shape and shift the way we tell our story once we identify our avatar? And how does that look? Absolutely. I'll take it a step further and say we shouldn't be telling the story at all until we've identified our avatars, because then you're just talking general to the masses. People have this fear that if I make my avatar specific, then I'm going to lose a lot of audience. And I love because I am a theater nerd as well. I have got, I spent a lot of time doing theater. I've got my undergrad and post-grad degrees in theater, and then I was in Hollywood for a long time. So I love Shakespeare. And excuse me, I'm going to clear my throat. I love Shakespeare. And Shakespeare wrote a story about two 12 and 14 year olds in Verona some 500 years ago. And yet my middle schoolers are reading it and still relating to it today. Okay. Don't worry about being too specific, but you can't talk to everyone in the same language. You can't talk to a teenager the same way you do to an octogenarian. You can't talk to someone who is very concerned about technology to someone who's and knows everything about it like the same me, to someone who is brand new to the subject in general. Your supporters, your potential supporters, there are many stages of them. And then there are different programs that you might have. You can have 30 avatars depending on how big your organization is, but at least you've probably got three. I'd say at minimum, if any organization thinks they have less than three, they're doing something wrong. And once you identify who they are, what their pain points are, what they're worried about, and then what language they speak, what interests they have, then you could really talk to them like you do to a friend that you're going to talk about a story that's going on right now that you would like their help with because nobody wants to help an organization. They want to help people and they want to connect with people. So you've got to treat them like a person. Okay. So I am going to put you on the spot and I would love to have you come back onto the nonprofit show and just do a segment with us on defining those these avatars, testing them and managing them because I think that this is such a critical piece that's missing that we don't understand in the nonprofit sector what and how we should be behaving with our stakeholders, with our donors, with our clients. The for-profit world understands this and spends a lot of time and a lot of energy on this and for some reason we've missed this in the nonprofit sector. And so I think this is one of the things that frustrates me about the concept of storytelling is that we're not addressing exactly what you just said Boris and that is okay but who are we telling our story to? So I'm fascinated with that and I'm putting you on the hot seat I think because we need to really explore that. You have a thing that I want to kind of move into a little bit and that is about showing your nonprofit success and your organizational success and for some reason when we tell our stories I feel like a lot of us we leave out how we are you know doing and what the impacts are and I'm wondering if you could address that. Yeah so this is a little bit tricky because it could be a double-edged sword like a lightsaber no sorry it could be dangerous because some organizations will just flout them their own success will just tout not flout their own success all the time and talk about oh look at us look at us look at us look at us that is the opposite of what you should be doing because no one really cares about you they care about the lives that you're changing they care about people like themselves who are helping you do that that said your story is scary to a lot of people I don't know that I can make a difference I don't know that I can make a change I don't know that your organization is the right investment of my resources again time voice money to make the kind of impact that I want to see in the world so at the right point in the story do show your success and show it by showing me the heroes who have come before me who have followed your path that you have laid out whom you have taught as Obi-Wan Kenobi did or Yoda did or Dumbledore did pick any sci-fi or fantasy or even rom-com there's always this mentor who guides the person to the to the solution that's already always been in their hearts right I mean every hallmark movie so you can't you can't just talk about yourself but you should be talking about the people whom you've helped become heroes in their own lives before I came along so that I could see ah yes if I donate if I volunteer I can become a hero I will succeed I will make the world a better place for all of us I think that really helps to drive everyone towards that true altruistic meaning of of giving right and again giving of time voice financial resources and really making it so that we feel a part of this you know community that we talked about earlier and I have heard and I'm sure we all have the stories of well I don't want to share how successful we've been because people then may think we don't need their help so how do you address that when it comes to sharing our success with our community yeah and there again I think it comes back to whether you're talking about oh look what we've done as a company as a business versus oh look what people have done look at the life that was changed the one life the many lives that were changed by one person making one gift by one effort one concerted effort and now invite me to do the same thing it's not that we've conquered the world and we've made it perfect no this challenge exists we and in your story you lay out the villains and the villains are still alive and and threatening you lay out the obstacles that we might have to overcome if we're going to conquer these these villains and make the world safe and better cure ignorance and insecurity and disease right so if you are framing it like oh look what we do and how great we are then yeah it's going to be like oh good for you I'm so glad you exist thank you bye versus if you're framing it like look what people are doing with our help look what we're empowering people to do and I see that as a problem and I see that as a great solution then that's not an issue that's not a danger there's also the concept of a donor sized problem which I think kind of connects to what you're talking about right now Jared where if you ask me to save an entire village I don't think I have the resources but if you ask me to empower a child to learn by donating x amount of dollars or volunteering x amount of time then yeah I could probably do that I could find that in my you know not my couch cushions maybe but in in my discretionary I can allocate some of that to your cause and and at least find that commitment to do that and I love you know really finding that donor size commitment and I'm assuming we all have different size commitment and so knowing your avatar knowing the capacity of just how big of a hero might this person have the ability to become I think is really fascinating I really enjoy your connection to I'm gonna say cinema right like really cinematic scenarios it makes it so tangible right I think it really makes it so tangible and that to me is a way that I don't think Julia any other guest has related telling our stories which going back to the beginning of this episode is what is storytelling right and that's exactly why we needed to start at the basic because we've been listening to stories all of our lives you know and it's interesting too I think Boris you do bring I wouldn't use the word a presentation skill but a knowledge of how we are physically transformed by storytelling and I think by framing it that way it changes our our call to action is nonprofits in terms of how we communicate and why we need to communicate so I love that you've done this and I've been super impressed and I am going to press you to get back on with us to talk about this further but before we let you go I'd really love for you to share some insight with us about the nonprofit hero factory I'm fascinated by this I learned about this on your website and I'm wondering if you could share with our viewers what this means and how you go about this sure so this is actually the nonprofit hero factory itself is a show it's a podcast it's a video show that I do weekly I don't know how you ladies do this daily I'm so impressed I can't even tell you but I do this weekly where I invite guests on as well sometimes I do solo shows but my goal is to help nonprofits create more heroes for their cause I think nonprofits play a vital role in this capitalist world that I love and so I want them to survive and thrive and I want them to create more heroes for their cause so that it makes a better world for all of us frankly and that's what the impetus was behind the nonprofit hero factory where I invite guests and every conversation is about okay how do we use what you know and what you do to attract the right people to activate them and create more heroes and a better world so that's the nonprofit hero factory it's one of the ways that that I try to help I do also have online courses on my website they're not part of the nonprofit hero factory but there are plenty of courses many of them are free some of them are not if I could do one last plug actually I'm for those interested in specifically in website storytelling I am super excited because I have had a dream for most of my life to be a teacher in one way or another and my kids will tell you all I'd like to do is teach they get very frustrated but I'm going to be teaching a course at NYU starting February second I believe it is on developing high impact websites for nonprofits I'm so excited about it NYU is you know I'm a New Yorker NYU is kind of the pinnacle of schools when it when it comes to these things so if anybody's interested those resources again are on dot org strategy.com Wow congratulations that is awesome and you know that is a tool this that's knowledge in this approach is a tool that can carry an organization I think to another another level it's astonishing it really is it really really is Jared what do you think about this concept of how we have been maybe miss sharing our stories. Again I love the connection and as a thespian myself Boris it's it's so great to hear the connection to the storytelling my undergrad is mass communication in theater and so you know really seeing how this aligns in that way has been fascinating I love the hero I love the villain as Julia you mentioned there are nine main villains in our community and so we can each be a hero to help combat eliminate you know these villains in our community and the way you share this Boris is fascinating congratulations on the NYU teaching opportunity that is absolutely a pinnacle moment so congratulations to you on that and have a feeling we will have you back if not at least once next year perhaps perhaps a few more times for you you've been fantastic and if you would you had mentioned earlier in the show that there's a web address we can visit for more resources would you mind sharing that again. Sure happy to it's you're seeing on the screen right now dot org strategy.com if you put a slash tns for the nonprofit show you will get a page that I just created just for the show where it has several storytelling tools including a downloadable target avatar worksheet that you guys could go through and I would love to come back on the show you don't actually have to twist my arm folks at home can't see it but I'm in a lot of pain right now because Julia is virtually twisting my arm to come back on but yeah I'd love to come back on and talk about all these things I'm happy to share and happy to help more organizations basically create a better world they love it you know this is great I love that we started our Monday this way this has been a devastating time for our country in just the last 72 hours it's going to get worse with these tragic losses across the middle part of our country and so I think there are many many stories to be told that will help resolve some of these long-term issues moving forward certainly for all of our viewers and this is something to really take to heart and it could be one of those strategies that you think you understand and that you know you have to do but you need to finesse it and really think about what the concept of storytelling means and for me today you've really done some amazing things Boris I'm just delighted that Steven Shattuck from Bloomerang connected us so yay team on that we want to say thank you so much everyone for joining us for another episode of the nonprofit show we are ending the year strong coming up on almost two years of the nonprofit show you can believe that so make sure that you're checking us out regularly you can access our archives on bloom or bloom listen to me on Vimeo on YouTube TV all sorts of things Roku Amazon Fire TV we got a lot cooking so check us out and again thank you to all of our presenting sponsors if you were not with us we would not be having these amazing conversations as we did today with Boris Kievsky okay Jared I'm rethinking the story that I need to be telling about the nonprofits I'm involved with how about you absolutely every day I know I'm going to visit that link so thank you Boris providing that additional resources to our viewers it's been amazing thank you guys so much this has been a total pleasure and an honor Jared Julia thank you for the work that you're doing on a regular basis to bring all of these amazing topics and I've watched several of your episodes to light and helping organizations become better at doing the things that they are created to do well it's been it's great it's a great journey it makes for a great story and so we're going to have you back my friend and we're going to explore some of these things that you talked about it's it's been riveting and I'm so appreciative that we have people like you in our sector helping us move towards the achievement of our missions visions and values it's really powerful you know as we end every episode we really mean this stay well so you can do well we'll see you back here tomorrow everyone thanks Boris