 Um, this episode is kept to go, a show about things you cannot see. Your thoughts attract things with a force that you cannot see but is definitely real. But like you just said, things that are definitely real. Andy you're this unbelievable world-class mystic. You're leaving our time-space continuum and then you have the ability to jump back in at these various other points substantiated by the fact that you're bringing back verifiable information. What do you think is the mechanics of that? So I have a mental model that I use to understand this and I don't know if it's right. It's just this is how I see it. I picture it as being kind of like a security guard with a bank of monitors and those those monitors are a view on all sorts of different things in different places and some of them are different times and so whichever monitor that security guard is looking at is what he's going to see. That first clip is from the secret movie of 2020 and the second was our guest Andy Pickett who if you don't know and we've done shows on this in the past is the most amazing pre-cognitive dreamer ever and that he dreams about things that are going to happen in the future. He has a database over 10,000. The database has been verified over and over again. He's a PhD. He's published in peer-reviewed journals about his work. Many people have studied him, amazing guy. This dial looks actually a continuation of the one we just had and I published as 582. So you don't really need to listen to that one to listen to this one. They're completely different but we do kind of just roll right into this one. So I guess if you wanted more of a background on Andy you could go there but otherwise I think you'll catch on really quickly to what's going on. What about your dreamer sub stack? I'm subscribed to that. You can do that one too. I just remembered. By the way, what do you think of the illustrations on there? I actually made a few fresh just for that. Remember some of them now that I think about it, yeah, you've done illustrators of the dreams. Yeah. And I can't believe I don't know where my own sub-stack is located. Just to say, you know what it is is I closed it because I didn't want to accidentally out myself as Andy Pickett and then you just want to get it anyway. Because the thing is I really enjoyed making these illustrations and I kind of like the style actually quite a lot. And one of these days I'd kind of like to make a book where it just has these illustrations along with the dreams that go with them. Just because I think it would be interesting to look at as a book. Again while you're pulling that up, 8,000 I'm sure it's over 8,000 pre-cognitive dreams recorded in a database, a searchable database, peer reviewed research that's been done on it, pre-cognitive dreams. Andy goes to sleep and dreams something is going to happen and then he without revealing anything verifies that it did happen and then records it to you the dream and then all these other aspects about it. Which you can find in a sub-stack that he's pulling up here and here are some of those illustrations. Go ahead. Yeah. So this is a dream where I was shown the Boxing Day tsunami about three weeks before it happened. So there is this guy basically showing me that this is where it was going to happen. It showed me the tidal wave and all the rest of that dress. This is the tidal wave and then the people running. This is a different dream. This is from a long, long time ago. This is about a guy who it goes to didn't realize he died while drowning. He couldn't stop that cycle. This is from that tsunami dream again. In this case it was the earthquake part of the tsunami because it was preceded by an earthquake. So I saw an earthquake watch station in Japan and I was looking at these readouts on their Giger, not Giger-Ketterler. Those things called, you know what I'm talking about, seismograph. And then he was showing me where it was located on this globe, which is basically the South Indian Ocean. Real quick, I asked you this question and keep showing them. It's so unbelievably beautiful. I love your style. I think it's just fantastic. You're a pro, man. I mean, you're pro, pro, pro, super pro on that. You know, I asked you this the other day and I wasn't totally satisfied with the answer that you gave. What do you make of this? What do you make of the fact that you're able to go into this state, this altered state of consciousness, which dreaming is an altered state of consciousness. We don't think of it that way. And you're able to access different timelines and pull back information about those timelines into our timeline. Where do you go with that? And then particularly with your own spirituality, which is, you know, kind of religious. Well, first off, I don't know that I can't myself as religious. I mean, I do go to church. I find that I disagree with, you know, some primary tenants of almost every religion, actually, probably all of them. And it's primarily because it disagrees with my dreams, which I actually trust more because I've actually been able to validate these things to an extent. And that makes them more trustworthy to me than someone's interpretation of somebody's teachings that have been interpreted a thousand times already. So which means they've gone through the game of telephone too many times to be completely trusted as far as I'm concerned. But again, while you're showing these beautiful, beautiful slideshow incredible, big picture question, God or blob of consciousness? Because a lot of people take what you're doing and say, Oh, there's a blob of consciousness. There's a stream of consciousness. There's the Akashic records that you can just go and get in there. There is no moral imperative. There is no hierarchy of consciousness. It's a blob of consciousness. Where do you stand on that? Yeah, I'd say it's a hierarchy and there is a God, God is real. I actually, I really resisted saying that for a very long time. But at this point, I don't think there's any other conclusion to draw from. Is God AI or should I say is AI God? No, it is far as I'm concerned. And I don't want to go too far on the nature of God because there's really a limit to what I know and what I can infer from what I've seen. But you can't say that that you can't say that. That's an important part of this conversation. You don't always peeves me, Andy. And this is a separate interview, but we're going to go ahead and roll it in. Is that all this discussion by these super intelligent people. I love Alex Friedman. I listen to him all the time. I listen to all these other AI guys. You are outside of space time with these dreams. All spiritually transformative experiences are outside of space time. AI is by definition inside of space time. It's in silicone. It's here. It's now it's on this time scale. You are jumping out of the time scale. So immediately that should eliminate it for anyone to consider it in kind of a literal way that AI is related to this. So question number two where people go is is E.T. God. No, I wouldn't think so. That would be part of the creation because the related question I always say is does E.T. have an NDE? There's a hierarchy of conscious. It's bigger. Like you said, we can't necessarily say what that light is, but all indications are that it's bigger than that. It's bigger than E.T. And it's bigger than AI. And we don't know for sure, but it's on this hierarchical scale. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's what I hear you saying is no, it's a lot bigger than that, bro. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we're in agreement there. So anyway, let me see if I can find that sub stack. But yeah, I'm getting it. I'm kind of getting a kick out of looking at these drawings now. This is really fun. Oh, this is a hilarious one. This I drafted a leprechaun. It caused my mom's toilet to start flushing the water up like a fountain. And so I called her and I told her about this funny dream and she said it's funny because that morning her toilet had actually done this. It's like the water was pushing up like a fountain and she had to call a plumber to fix it. Um, I have no idea how that happened or what this element meant, but, uh, but nevertheless that part of it was true. Andy, go back, go back. Yeah. Since we're, we're streaming all through these because this is like, again, folks, 8,000 of these and he just told you 1,500 actually. I'm sorry, 13,500. Each one of them incredibly amazing. I want you to add as much detail as you can or that you'd like to this particular dream. What happens? Do you have any thoughts before you, you go to bed? You know, do you have multiple dreams? How do you record it? How do you verify it? In this case, if you can remember that, because I think then someone can extrapolate to all the pictures that you've shown and all these huge events like tsunamis that kill a quarter of a million people. Tell us, add any details you can to that particular leprechaun and the. Okay. Well, I'm going to pull up my dream journal record, put it on the side. So I'm going to look over here. This is August 13th. Oh, wait, no, it isn't. It's, uh, let me just look it up here. I'm just looking up in the database and I can tell you just so you know, I have a pretty good recall of my dreams that the details quite often escape me. So I have to look them up. Oh, wow. This is a long record. Okay. So, uh, this particular night. This is C9 number five. So this is at a minimum of the fifth stream from that night. Can you pull that up? What you're reading from? Well, I just want to make sure there's nothing like off coloring. But it's from that time period. I had a couple like that, but okay. Read for us, if you will, exactly what's on the screen because people aren't probably going to be able to see it. Okay. Yeah. So what I'm looking at here is I've got a bunch of tabs. This one gives me an ID number for the record. It's number 13,827. Got an ID number. It's got its date of the dream, what journal it was in, which is April journal that I wrote in by hand. What was the date? This is 28th, 1990. I've got this one flagged as unusual because it mentions a levercon, which is just kind of a weird thing. And at this time, I frequently got my wife mixed up with my mom and my dreams for some reason. I don't know why, but in this case, I realized this was about my mom because where it was located. So I called her to verify it and she said that indeed. Hold on, hold on, hold on. I want to take it, I want you to take it through sequentially. You said it's the, it's the fifth dream of the night. How do you know that? What's the process like of your recall of the dream? Does it happen in the morning? And then how do you record it? When do you record it? And then when do you verify it? And then what did you actually record in this one? Okay. Well, you know what, it would be kind of fun. Let me stop the share so I can actually show you the journal it's in. It's right behind me, but I, I record these in dream journals. Okay. This is the wrong dream journal, but you can see it. Okay. This is right after it. Okay. So this is all written by hand. Okay. And this is him, this big, fat binder. And I've got like, I don't know, 34 of these sitting here in my, so what would happen is I would go to sleep and I probably sleep for maybe 30 minutes or 40 minutes and I'd have a dream and then I would go ahead and wake up and write down the dream and then I go back to sleep and I'd wake up another hour later and I'd write down another dream and that would go on throughout the night. So my sleep would be interrupted anywhere from usually, you know, three at a minimum to as many as like 15 times and I would write out 15 dreams. So it's not like I, I wait until I was up for the day and I wrote them all out. It usually was as they happen. Now these days I'm a little bit more lazy about that. So I don't do that quite as often, although admittedly I did exactly that last night, but usually not. Usually now I will just wait until I'm up for the day. But in any event, so I wrote the whole thing out and, and then I was thinking, all right, based on the information in here, I'm going to identify the person that's happened to as my mom. And so I made exactly one call to my mom and I said, mom, did this happen? And in my notes here, I record that on, looks like, looks like recorded a few months later than I. Oh, that's probably because it's when the database is made. Anyway, so she confirmed that indeed on that morning, her toilet had ejected exactly the way I had drawn it. And as far as the rest of it goes, I don't know if that was my dream self trying to make sense of why the toilet would be flushing that way up or what. But but the fact that the toilet was ejecting the water straight up is true. And I certainly had no way of knowing that in advance. You know, some of these are just a second. Let me show the screen again. Some of these I'm sharing less because they're precognitive because a lot of them aren't precognitive. Some of them are and some of them are, but some of them are actually very interesting for other reasons. So I had one back here that I'm going to go towards, which I found fascinating if I can find it. And I just I think about that. I'm just going to do it shortly. I'm going to look at my my there we go. OK, so in this dream here, I meet a guy who I know from Maine and he wants to show me something and he takes me basically to the portal and I go through the portal and all of a sudden I'm I'm somewhere else. OK, so it feels like I'm living in these shabby circumstances and somebody else has paid for the place I'm living in. They they're paying for my food, my furniture, everything else. And I'm grateful to have a place to stay and to have food and all the rest of it. But I'm a little ungrateful because I'm used to better things. I mean, like when I was in California, I made a good salary and I had really nice things. So so not having those really put me out. So I was I was kind of grateful and not grateful at the same time. I even slept on this threadbare mat on the ground. OK, and so I'm looking out the window, which is right here. And I see out the window, I look down and there's these guys in orange costumes playing soccer and it looks like a medieval town somehow. So that's kind of interesting. And but then as I'm thinking about these guys, I'm suddenly transported to this other location and it's basically empty space, except for a pedestal that has a podium with a book on it. And I go into this book and it's the longest book. And when I open it, it has this weird effect. It actually makes me fly up. So I'm like basically levitating. And then when I close it, it brings me back down. So I'm thinking, oh, this is hilarious. I'm going to show this to those guys who are playing soccer down there. And they're just walking into the room here. I'm going to play a trick on them. And so they they come over here. I am going to keep my mind. And I said, OK, take a look at this. And the guys like, well, heck, the pages are all blank. Right. That's what I saw. But then they start filling up and you're filling up with the words of creation of all things. It's I'm literally seeing them waterfall out of this book. And I can see that each word is the thing itself. And it's not just the thing itself. It's the history. It's the reason for its being. It's how it got created. It's who made it, which is in this case, God. And it's the future of the thing. And it's its purpose and the reason why it's existing and how long it's going to be there and what's going to happen when it goes away. It's like all this information. It's just this amazing amount of information that it's just pouring out. And it's it's covering everything. And I see it's talking about the world and the grasses and the people and the animals and air and gravity and just everything. And it's just expanding and expanding and filling the universe. Then I can see all this stuff being created as the words are coming out of the book. And, you know, like here, I'm seeing the words. And then I'm seeing this thing, in this case, a blade of grass. OK. And then I'm seeing the root systems for the grass. And then I'm seeing the insects and how they interact with the grass and how you need to have both of those things. And it's all accounted for in this grand design of all this stuff. And then I'm seeing all the people who've ever lived or ever will live. And I'm seeing their whole histories. I even see myself and I'm like, hey, I got to take that later to read in a different dream, which I did, by the way. And then I see the author of all this stuff, the author of all creation. And that's how I think of them in the dream. I'm not thinking it's God, but I think it's fair to identify them that way now. So anyway, so I see all this stuff being created. And it's just fascinating. And I realize, you know what, I actually have responsibility to this guy. Now that I know why I was made and what my purpose is, I have an obligation to do the things that are required of me in this life. But the thing is, it was interesting is that after this particular scene that I made a drawing of, I went back to, you know, like Earth. And I was doing my own thing. And the whole time I had this hyper-aware that the creator of the universe was aware of every tiny thing I did or thought or said is absolutely aware of it. And so any, anything I did or thought or said, it was not what I was meant for me. And actually I had considerable freedom within this, but that there were certain things that I was expected to do. I want to do that. So I knew that God saw all this. And I was like, well, I'm surviving so far. He hasn't zapped me yet. So I guess this is okay. But I also knew I had this duty to accomplish whatever this duty was. And so eventually I ran into those guys. They're like my friends now who had seen playing soccer, right? And now they had a, like a vegetable stand at a market in this medieval town. And I said, hey, you know, instead of kind of lonely walking around doing my own thing, how about you guys drop this stuff that you're supposed to do for God that you saw when the, when the book opened up and then we can go do something fun. And they're like, no, no, you misunderstand, want to do this. We feel good doing this. And now that you know all this stuff that you saw, you have an obligation to report for doing yourself also. Okay. And so that was the end of the dream. But what I did not expect was that it actually had to target the developments to it. So some years later, actually not too many years later, might have been literally two years or you're going to have something like that. I actually had a job offer to go work in the Netherlands. And the thing is I didn't have much money at the time, you know, because I basically left my career behind in Hollywood. And so they actually had to front me the money to provide me everything. So they, they, you know, got the apartment for me. They got groceries for me. You know, I had rent, you know, the furniture was rented. It wasn't mine. It was basically exactly like the dream. And the place I was living was in a medieval village. The village had been founded in like the year 1000 or something like that, a cathedral in town. They started construction in 1200 and finished in 1300 or so. And most of the town still looked like it was this ancient place. So, and I was sleeping on a threadbare mat. And the reason was because there were so many bugs in the car that I had that the threadbare mat had fewer of these bugs. So I thought it was more comfortable to sleep there. So that's right. What about the orange jerseys? Right. So, so one day I was, I just woken up from an app or something on that, on that, that mat. It was a strong map. And I looked out the window and I'm, you know, on the third floor. And I saw these guys playing soccer outside wearing orange jerseys. It was world cut, you know, the guys in the Netherlands are absolutely augers for the world cut. And that's their color. I mean, that's their color. Anyone knows in Netherlands, they're all orange. I mean, it's all, it's like. And I had no idea. I mean, at the time I had the dream, I certainly, you know, that was the other thing about the dream is I wasn't expecting that the combination of modern and medieval elements. And it didn't make sense to me. I hadn't, I didn't remember ever seeing a city like that before. And as it turns out, I had, because I had been to Europe. I was in my teens, but, but it wasn't exactly what I was expecting to do later. That's certainly not when I was my 40s. So anyway, but the, but the town I was in definitely had that mixture of modern and ancient. Andy, you're this unbelievable world-class mystic. You just saw, I mean, that's like, I said at the very beginning of this interview, I said, now you know why Trish McGregor said, I think he might be the most psychic person I've ever met in my life. So this is mind blowing. You're listening to this little tiny, tiny show, Skeptico, and you're hearing just this incredible flow of information from a mystical source, which is Andy. As a mystic though, and as I've kind of explored this, you know, this stuff is always seems allegorical when you break it down, you know, there's the near death experience. They come back and there's contradictions to these things. So I'm wondering a couple of things. Number one, I'm wondering, what do you understand to be the mechanics, if you will, the closer to technology part of you? And when I say closer to technology part, I think a lot of us who are really investigating this are wondering how we should understand this, you slipping in and out of this timeline, because that's what you're doing. You're leaving our time space continuum, you're jumping out of it, and then you have the ability to jump back in at these various other points, apparently, substantiated by the fact that you're bringing back verifiable information. What do you think first is the mechanics of that? And then I want to ask you about the meaning of that. Why? Why is that? Why is that there? And how can you be so sure about this hierarchy of consciousness isn't some hierarchy of control? A lot of questions there. So go for it. Yeah, I'm going to say that's a lot of questions there. So I have a mental model that I use to understand this. Okay. And I don't know if it's right. It's just this is how I see it. And I gave this to you the other day, but I picture it as being kind of like a security guard with a bank of monitors. And those, those monitors are a view on all sorts of different things in different places. Some of them are different times. Okay. And so whichever monitor that security guard is looking at is what he's going to see. Okay. So if he's looking at the future, he's going to see the future, he's looking at something else, he's going to see something else, whatever it is. Now, the way I see it, we have like a security code. It's a password that gives us access to, in most cases, one of those monitors and it's our own life on our timeline. But sometimes for whatever reason, we get access to some of the other monitors. And for whatever reason, I think that's kind of what's going on here. That's just how I visualize it anyway. Who gave you all these access codes? You're the one who gets them all. I'm not saying they're really access codes. I'm just saying it's, that's how I'm picturing it. And I'm saying, using your same analogy, why does Andy have all these access codes? Number two, why do sometimes for people who come back with incredible information about these access codes, sometimes that information doesn't pan out. Sometimes the future doesn't happen. Sometimes they get caught up in kind of strange beliefs and, you know, things that really kind of contradict logic. Why aren't, why aren't those screens always perfect? And what is the whole mechanism, if you will, say about the nature of this ultimate reality, not our reality down here, because all of a sudden our reality down here seems kind of almost not trivial, but like much, much less significant because you're now at a whole different level. So process that for me. Back to your first question, who gave you the access codes? Okay, because I actually had a dream about that that I remembered while you were talking. Okay, so in the dream, I was told that in other lives, I had actually done so much like work and I understood it to be like meditation and more spiritual types of things, but then I had, I had a certain level of knowledge that I had developed that makes this possible. And it's certainly not the only person that this happens to, it happens to a lot of people, but as though I would say the distinct minority of the population, it's still, you know, a large number. No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't. Well, go ahead. Well, all right, fine. So obviously Alex and I disagree on something, but in any event, but apparently it's like other experiences before this life somehow gave me this, this access, that's how it looks anyway in that dream. But as far as when it breaks down, you know, I, in my own dreams, I certainly see examples where they're right, but the way I wrote them down was wrong. So like where I described something in accurately because I didn't really understand what I was looking at. Now I'm very careful about how I record things now because of that, because I, and this is something that if you don't accept the possibility that you're dreaming about something real, you're never going to think about this. If you, if you accept that possibility, yes. I'll give you a specific example that I often use that kind of drives the point home. I interviewed this guy, a near death experiencer. I have no reason to doubt his experience and it was really quite dramatic, stung by these box jellyfish that can kill you, stung seven times. It was actually put in the morgue. It was in this little, right, comes back, comes back to tell us all that near death experience is a exclusively Christian experience. And he knows this because he met Jesus. He met God and he goes around to all churches and talks to Christian people and he says, look, if you're not seeing Jesus in your NDE, I'll tell you, buddy, then you're, it's satanic. You know, no, this guy, I don't want to put him down because he, he had a screen over there. Right. He, he left to that other dimension. He had a screen. He interpreted it. And if you listen to what he says, he's not like completely misinterpreting it. He's like, no, I met Jesus. This is what Jesus told me. I got another guy, David Ditchfield, say, met Jesus. You push him a little bit further and he goes, well, I'm not really sure if there was something above that that I didn't see. But again, that data coming back to us is problematic in a number of ways. And I also, I know about the situation you're talking about with the box built jellyfish guy and I'm a little disappointed with him interpreting the experiences that way myself, just because there's other data that contradicts it. And I think there's a good reason to believe that the other data is more accurate than his interpretation. Got to interject, but let's be clear because you're really laying it on the line here in a way that I've never, I'm so grateful for you to have this conversation because we've talked for a long time. I've always tried to get to this point and never gotten there. So we're right on the cusp. No, Andy, he's saying, yes, I'm interpreting this and that, but I'm not interpreting the whole thing kind of like your dream. You're drawing these incredible illustrations. If someone came and said, oh, no, there wasn't one male there, there were six women. You'd go, no, no, there wasn't. There was one guy there and he was dressed like this. So that is he's not saying he's maybe a little bit off their this or that. He's saying, no, you're off because it was Jesus and Jesus told me this. Why would he come back? Let me let me just ask this question. Why do you expect him to come back and reinterpret, reimagine his experience based on your data any more than I would tell you to do the same thing? No, Andy, don't worry about your dream. Your dream isn't doesn't conform to the data. Put that one aside. Yeah, you're you're thinking I'm talking about the wrong part of this because I don't contest the fact that he's saying I saw Jesus. The thing that is bothering me is him telling other people that if you don't see Jesus, that's that's what Jesus, that's what Jesus told him. Why do you want what I didn't get that? I thought that was his interpretation. OK, that's interesting. I'd have to think about that. I didn't realize that that was see this is the problem with the mystic is that when the mystic comes back and is confronted with the reason and logic, which is we can't dismiss or discount the reason and logic and say, no, that doesn't conform to all these other accounts. No, the entity that you saw is contradicted by Gregory Shushan's analysis of near death experiences across culture, across time in 600, no, it doesn't conform to that. I think too often I hear the mystic just plow ahead rather than give pause and say, I don't know why that. I don't know why I got that information and someone else got information that does contradict what I what I was given. Well, when you're basically what you're illustrating is imperfect knowledge. And I think I think that's a given. I kind of assume it when it comes to this kind of stuff. I assume it's like a fragment or a glance at something that you're not really seeing the whole thing. Kind of like archaeology, where you're you're digging up the tombs, but you can't talk to the people who were there to explain how they got there. You have to kind of figure it out. And I think that there's always going to be a level of interpretation in all of this stuff, including anything that I talked about. And actually, I know that because while I was talking about one of them, I was saying I figured this wasn't who I thought it was in the dream. It was somebody else. And I did that based on other clues that were within it that I've learned to recognize based on examining these things carefully. And in the same way, like some of the other research I've done, I certainly found some things that are they're genuine observations but how they got there or what they're doing, that's me interpreting what I see. So I think that when you're when you're talking about the box jellyfish guy whose name I I'm sorry it escapes me, but in in McCormick, but there you go. That's it. Yeah. In McCormick. So when you're talking about Ian, I don't want to discount what he experienced or what he says, the experience or how he recalls it. But on the other hand, the way he's he's presenting this to other people doesn't seem completely correct. OK, and if that one part that you just said is literally something straight out of the stream, then I I'm asking myself, OK, how could that be true? Well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you my interpretation of how it can be true. And it's like I'm jumping into your story, but that's OK, because I can jump into your story. You're not you are here talking to me. You're not in that mystical state. You're you're here now. You're not in that other alternative timeline. And that's what I think that the mystics always forget is that I can relate to this in a way that I process dreams. Number one, I was just kind of a normal dreamer until my son turned me on to lucid dreams. And he turned me on, if you will, just by telling me repeatedly over and over that he was having lucid dreams and an eight year old kid and he's your son. You're like, he's not making this up. So then you research it a little bit. And anyone who's looked into lucid dreaming will tell you the most likely trigger event for you having lucid dreams or not having lucid dreams is someone telling you that it's possible to have lucid dreams. As soon as they tell you, then your mind can do it. But as soon as you have a lucid dream, my experience with it is I suddenly realized that all my dreams were this combination of me in control and something else in control and that I was in this dance of creating and seeing the unfolding of it. And so that's part number one that I would have to resolve inside of, you know, everything that you've done. But number two is I think back on dreams that I've had for a long time, even in the morning, I will. And they are no longer of the same nature that they were there. So I just got to believe that when we're in this timeline, in this time space continuum, we'll have some aspect of that greater, but of course, it's not going to be accurate. It's we're human. We're down here. Yeah, well, okay. You know, on a basic level, I can go along with that. Yeah, I can go along with that, that we're going to be making those kinds of either mistakes or interpretations or maybe even the messages delivered to us in such a way that we purpose make those mistakes, because the message has to be delivered that way for us to understand it. And I can picture that too with Ian McCormick, that it would be delivered. In fact, actually, this reminds me of something I found really interesting in this book that I get a huge kick out of. I read it probably, I don't know, 30 or 40 times now. What you saw, true. This is literally my favorite book. It's an anonymous, it's a reproduction of an anonymous diary from like a six year old kid back in the 1880s. He happens to be clairvoyant, doesn't know it. And so he just wrote this diary out. After he died is widow brought it to Cyril Scott, who is a musician who publishes his books at the time and asked him if he'd be willing to find a way to get it published. And so he published it with some notes. But one of the things in there is the boy is saying that I saw Jesus again. I saw him tonight. This is what he said. I saw Jesus. He says it several times. But at a certain point in the book, he has a tutor and the tutor figures out that the kid is clairvoyant and starts asking questions about it. And during one of those sessions, it comes up that it's not Jesus. It's the astral body of some Indian in India who is sleeping at the time and giving him instruction while he's sleeping. And he says, I didn't tell you before because it was convenient. It was more convenient this way because it would be too confusing for you at your age for me to tell you who I really was because you just wouldn't understand it. But now that you've got this tutor here, I can explain to him and he can explain it to you and you're going to understand it now. So now you can just know me as your friend from this other place. So I can certainly picture that kind of thing going on all over the place where it's not like a malignant action, you know, designed to pull the wool over our eyes or deceive us in any way. It's more that they just allow us our knowledge and our experience and our connection to these things to define how we understand what we're being told. So that I can picture. So Andy, back to the final question, the big question. What does this tell you kind of deep, deep in your soul about the nature of reality? And I keep hearing consistently the data, the data, the data is love, is goodness, is light, and that comes through again and again. And then I hear so many folks who want to ignore that, don't want to talk about that. It's like we went through the whole thing with the near death experience science for 20 years. And, you know, I always remember one researcher and I'm almost sure it was Jeff Long who said, look, everyone's ignoring the fact that the overwhelming statistic here is that like in the high 90s, people are saying it's about love. It's about connection to the light. And the reason I bring that up is I don't like hold on to that because I want to believe it. I hold on to it because the data for that is overwhelming. And everyone seems to want to just talk about AI and ET and all this stuff that's just so much more backdoor materialism kind of stuff, which is interesting and occupies our imagination. But it just seems to be a whole leap away from the essence, the core essence of the data. I happen to agree with that and that's certainly consistent with my own experience. I mean, I certainly see like a darker side to this, but that's not the goal. It's not the objective. It's not what everything's trending towards. It's what we're trying. We're trending away from. Okay. So when I see people talking about the unpleasant NDEs, for instance, as proof of the idea that they're not all pleasant, I would say that's because of that person's mental construct or their, you know, the condition of their spirit at that time is causing that to happen. But yeah, everything is about love and light. I think that is ultimately the message of everything that I've been getting into. Although initially when I started this research, that's not what I was looking at. I was just, and that's how I got drawn into it. I got drawn in because I was seeing I was having dreams of the future. And actually it wasn't even because I saw it. My wife saw it. She got me looking into it. And I saw she was right. It was only over time, after I accepted that part of it, that I started seeing the other stuff. And I saw, you know, I've seen God in my dreams. I got it. As far as I'm concerned, he's very real. And as far as the nature of reality is concerned, what we are experiencing right now is not reality. This is the dream state. This is the dream world. Okay. What we call dreams is our very poor recollection of the real world. Okay. So to me, it's the permanent existence that is more real than the impermanent one. And this physical universe is impermanent. And the spiritual one is permanent. So that's reality. I said that was the final question. I'll slip one more in. How high is the hierarchy? How far does it go? I kind of have a sense that this is where people stumble. They see the hierarchy down here. And that's what they think of hierarchy. And I think what we're talking about, the data comes back and says, no, no, it's like an order of magnitude, more magnitudes, magnitude beyond that in terms of the hierarchy. What are your thoughts? I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, if you look at a gradient in a computer that's got a high screen, right, you know, you go green to yellow or any, any two colors, right? You can have millions and millions of variations of yellow and orange from one side to the other as it blends from one color to the other. And I would say that when you're talking about hierarchies, spiritual hierarchies, it's going to have to do with the individual history of every individual spirit, and it's going to be much more numerous than all of those pixels in the gradient pattern. Because everyone's going to be that much different. And that's going to put them in a different location. And ultimately, I would say we're not talking ranks, you know, like a major and a colonel and a general. What we're looking at is just exactly who we are and where we fit in and how we're those experiences places and how it adds to our knowledge. But we are all different. And that's the hierarchy. At least that makes any sense. And as far as, you know, some people and having or some spirits having more sway than others, that would just be because they have more knowledge or experience in a relevant area. And that would put them in a position to share that with someone else. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they're above them. You know, actually another way from the way you saw through that I really like is in that book, the boy's mother is kind of frightened by the fact that he seems to be clairvoyant. I mean, she comes out and says it, but you can tell. She's like, you know, maybe there's something wrong with your eyes. You know, when you see ghosts, right, we'll have an optician in here to look at you and we're going to bring you to the Perkfordshire spot and see if the taking to waters there will will improve your vision problems or whatever. So the thing is that one thing the boy is told, one of these clairvoyant encounters with the tutor present is you had to know about this, you had to meet the tutor at this time in your life because your mother cannot appreciate your gifts. She has a close mind of this kind of thing. She lacks knowledge of this. She lacks any experience of it. They've done us right in her and you needed to know that this was okay, and that's why we arranged for you to have this tutor so that you could have someone you can talk to. But the thing you also need to understand is that for all that she doesn't know about this, she knows other things you don't know, you have no experience of, and she will help you in those areas. So you need to be aware that even though you might be above her and knowledge of this area, she's above you in other areas, and those are also important. So when I look at this concept of hierarchy, the reason I specify it is we are who we are and that places is where we belong in that hierarchy. I want to keep in mind that we all have these different experiences that puts all of us above somebody else and all of us below somebody else, because there's always someone who knows more and there's always somebody who knows less until you get to the top of this and we're talking God, but like in my case, I can talk to you about, you know, certain subjects and other subjects, I'd be completely hopeless, and I think that extends in every direction. Why evil? Why does it exist? And should we resist it? This is not the question I expected to be answering today. I don't know, but frankly, I think it'd be kind of tough to say why, but I think it may be because we have free will to experiment in this reality and free will you could look at simply as curiosity in this particular case. I mean, I've been curious about things that were amazingly stupid. You know, like I once was curious about all these bees that were or wasps that are coming out of a hole in the ground in a field when I was a kid, and I thought I wonder what happened if I put my foot over this hole, right? And next thing I knew I'd have my foot on a landline basically, because I had a who knows how many hundreds of those guys eager to get out. And as soon as I moved my foot, they got I got like 20 stings in my neck from that experience is horrible. The most painful thing I've ever experienced in my life. And as far as I'm concerned, evil is no more complicated than that. It's somebody gets curious, what's going to happen if I do this? Okay, they get the reaction. Maybe it's delayed sometimes they get the reaction and what they did was evil. What I did with that, you could say was evil in the sense that I shouldn't have done it. I was blocking a passageway intentionally and thus causing potential harm to the insects underneath. My understanding of evil is more along the lines of a blockage of the light that is convenient at the time or seems logical at the time. And we make that decision. And then that gets us into a pattern. Yeah, I can see that happening. I mean, I can also see people developing a taste for you. I mean, we certainly have examples of psychopaths who do really crazy evil things. And in those cases, I would say it's actually in every case a lack of understanding on their part. And it causes this stuff to happen. It doesn't make it any less evil. And it shouldn't be stopped. It absolutely should be. But the fact is, there are reasons why that would happen. And I think ultimately, you know, when psychologists look at this stuff, a lot of times they say, well, this is psychological damage due to certain things happening in your upbringing. And I can tell you I've had the kind of upbringing that would put me in that category pretty easily. And it didn't affect me that way. And I know plenty of other people that have backgrounds like that. It doesn't affect them that way. And I also know people who have had very comfortable lives, you know, their parents were wealthy, and they everybody liked them. And, you know, they went to church. And yet they turned into treat you with sadistic weirdos. So ultimately, I don't think those kinds of things are the reality of it. I think the reality is spiritual one, and it's where they come from. And where they come from is not your parents. Where they come from is the accumulated experiences of their spirit. And that's where evil comes from. Does that make sense? Andy, this has been just amazing. And I hope we can share it with other people and they find it to be amazing. And if only a couple do, then they're the right ones to have received it. So it's all good. Thank you so, so much. You are you're just unbelievable. Well, thank you too. I appreciate it. Now, by the way, keeping with everything is light. I'm wondering if you're going to change the dark theme of your background at some point. Because you're wearing black. I mean, I'm wearing black, too. I don't normally do this, but I thought it'd be good contrast for this. Well, I did it because like I just had a t-shirt on. And if you put the see how that see what that does to the camera. Yep, that's pretty horrible. So I was just scrambling around trying to get something. And this was I could have run upstairs and got another I have all these t-shirts that I've made to inspire me. This one says keep the main thing, the main thing, you know, yoga t-shirt. In thing. Keep the what? What do you think it said? Keep the man thing, the main thing. That was fine. Anyway, okay, well, that's fine. I'm just going to say this just I am a little still thinking about the anti paquette doctors are saying that there's nobody knows that connection versus going to come out because I wrote this papers where I I talk about all it's out. It's out. Trust me. Anyone who wanted to you're not hiding anyone who wanted to find would find you in a in a second. They don't care anymore. They don't care anymore. Yeah, you're probably right about that. Time has passed. They don't care anymore. No one's gonna fix this problem. No one's going to jail. So we can just tell we can just tell folks what happened and that the true the true spirit of truth finding is will will win out if it's supposed to win out. You know, just out of curiosity, I know I like to be more optimistic that something would happen. This would be fixed. But let's take your position as true for the time being. Okay, so let's say it's exactly as you say. So if things continue like this, what do you see for the future? You know, the thing that I always point to, especially recently, I don't know why this puts people on tilt. But you know me well enough, Andy, that you know, as soon as I found that this immediately put people on tilt, I just go there all the time. And that's slavery in America. Yeah, well, that's what it is. Well, no, I'm talking about 1800s, 17, 1800s. Yeah, yeah. That is that is demonic. That is satanic in not Christian, but whatever those terms mean, that is that you would take this person, you would enslave them to do work, you would go to church on Sunday, and then come home and rape their little eight year old daughter or son, as you pleased, that you would rip a child from the mother's arms and sell her. This is satanic. This is evil. And this went on for year after year, decade after decade. We fought a war over it. People still want to recast that I'm always amazed at people who want to apologize or kind of change that history. No, we fought a war over that. Now we did it for another hundred years. So I think sometimes when we get caught up with our special little point in the timeline and, you know, how Oh my God, what is going to happen? Hey, as a country, we we live through that. You want to jump ahead in the time line? The other one I'd like to go to is Abu Ghraib. Abu Ghraib. Remember the photos? We went out on the battlefield and we scooped up these people. We later found out that about half of them were really combatants. Other were just innocent people that were on the battlefield. And we did the most horrific torture of them imaginable. If you want to remember those photos, we made them stand in their own feces and urine. We made them stand on. We handcuffed them, made them do perverse sexual acts that went against their deepest spiritual traditions. We did stuff to their genitals. We did this. The US military did this and no one really went to jail or was accountable. What's going to happen? What's going to happen over this? I mean, what's going to happen is what you're doing right now will find a way to go forward and hopefully make it better. But for God's sake, let's own our history a little bit here and use that as a guide to what we're doing. It's funny because my dreams have something to say about this, that I don't really share a whole lot just because I don't like to think that it's true. But one thing, since you mentioned I'm a grave, I actually have a personal connection to that story. And that is when I caught the Sony taking or not taking money, recovering up for another company that's taking money from the Department of Defense, we had Seymour Hirsch from, you know, the village voice who was going to do a story about it. And but then when my attorney called him, you know, with the follow call, Hirsch said, I'm sorry, I have to drop that story because I'm on a plane to this place called Abu Ghraib. It's a bigger story. And that's what I'm going to do instead. But anyway, but with my dreams, they are saying very, very bad things are happening, are going to happen to America, they're going to be devastating, and they are going to be totally unexpected, but it's going to be very, very devastating. So one thing that I would ask the statistic again, very famously, Ken Ring, Kenneth Ring, who is a prominent near death experience researcher and parapsychology researcher, focused in on these people who had pre cognitive dreams of environmental disaster. And a lot of people have had those over and over again. And there was another independent researcher that did the same, and they came up with the same results. And the results were this large scale global environmental disaster in the 1980s. So it didn't occur. It didn't occur. So that's why I totally respect everything that you just said. And I just say maybe, maybe not. And I kind of think that I am a co creator of this reality. And I'm not in the back seat, waiting for America to fall apart, or for the world to fall apart. And also I look at it from a pragmatic level, it's, we're still the beacon of light of the where would you go? Where would you go? Would you go to China? Would you go to Russia? Would you go to Europe? We have to make this the best we can. Because despite everything else, we still have some of the keys to the kingdom. We can, to the best of our ability, restore it better than we have a chance. Yeah, if you're if we're having this conversation in China, or Russia, or a million other places, there is no chance that we will affect any change, at least here. There's a chance you're doing it, you're doing the work. You know, it's funny way you're talking, I have this, this image came to me from when I'm painting, you know, back with back when I was like this painting behind me, okay, so I make my paintings, I want my colors to be clean. So to do that, I'd mix my colors before I put any brushstrokes down on the canvas. Okay, so I figure out what all the colors are that I'm going to need, or I do anything. Okay. And then when I change colors, I change brushes also. So I don't get the paint mixed up, right? When I hate to throw away all this expensive paint when I'm done with the painting. So I will take usually take like a piece of paper, and I think a quick like duplicate of the painting on paper, just using all those colors, I figure at least that way I've got a record. But then I still have a lot of paint left over. So what I do is I dump it all into a jar for basically a gray color. Dark purple or something, right? So it all gets mixed together and it's a big mess. So then I've got a jar on this gunk, basically. Okay. And so whenever I need gunk added to like a bright color, I can go go get it. Okay. So when I when I look at humanity, I'm thinking of all this gunk in this jar, it was all these pure colors at one time, but now it's just like gray garbage. Okay. And looking at the task of improving humanity is trying to go in there and find all the individual specs of like cadmium yellow media and washing off all that other junk and taking them out and making them pure again and then putting them together where they belong. That's what it feels like. It's a huge trap to ask that makes sense. Where does that lead you because because here was the point remember is you're saying, I had these precognitive dreams man, America's going down the tubes and I'm like not so fast. That's the other thing that comes back that does kind of kind of peeve me about the mystic is that come back into this world, look at this timeline and use something called the scientific method and look at the data and look at the exceptions to the data. And we have to explain those to because as we know, as got scientist, the exceptions sometimes tell us more than the pattern. So here are the exceptions. It doesn't always work out like you think. Yeah. So first up, I've referenced the research you're talking about as an example of exactly what you just said because I want to be aware of these kinds of things. And I want to be aware of the fact that they don't always end out. I want to have an idea of why that is. So when I talk about it in the context of the dreams I've had about the future, which has nothing to do with an environmental disaster, by the way, I have that same attitude of well, let's wait and see what happens. The thing that bothers me is that everything's trending in that direction now it wasn't before, but now it is. That's that's the thing that makes it more interesting. Because when I'm when I see the like the dream I had of New York being not completely but nearly depopulated, and the way it happens where none of the buildings get destroyed, it's just the people leave willingly. And then other people come in and take their place but not in the same numbers. So you've got like 90% of the city is gone. And then you've got the 10% remaining. I can actually picture that happening now as a combination of lost commerce, the pandemic, pardon me, and all this illegal immigration going on. I can see all three of those things conspiring to create a scenario like the one in that green, whereas prior to like two years ago, I wouldn't have been able to picture that. The you know, the pandemic policies, those things scare the daylights out of me because these vaccines, I don't think we've even gotten close to knowing the extent of damage that's caused by those things. Because they have, you know, some people drop dead right away. Some people get myocarditis by two months or three months or six months later. We have no way of knowing yet the magnitude of the harm that's been caused. And not only that, even the people who don't die, if they're just debilitated, they can't function at the same levels. They're less productive, you know, and and that lack of productivity is meaningful because it means our infrastructure is disabled. And that is important because having a disabled infrastructure disables people to in another way. Do you ever notice, Andy, how you can seamlessly shift from this incredibly mystical view of the world to this very mechanical database spreadsheet, which is valuable. I'm not I'm not criticizing you, Andy, because it's extremely valuable. You couldn't have done the work you've done on the elections without that. But the switch that you do is very interesting. And I'm not sure quite what to make of it. And I want to know, are you are you kind of aware of of that kind of now that were you just said it's like a total surprise to me, actually. Interesting. But no, I don't I don't think of it that way. I do know I am aware that I have a tendency to draw analogies quite frequently. And I have a reputation of people who know me for drawing pretty good analogies. I think you might have noticed that yourself every once in a while. I actually what was the nickname there is this guy made a nickname for me to have the word analogy in it. And I forget what it was. It was it was not a friendly. This guy didn't like the fact that I did that all the time. But I just found it easier to explain myself that way. You're an artist. It's like your fantastic illustrations. I mean, I'm looking at those and like, I mean, a picture is worth a thousand words. It's unbelievable. We auto we auto wrap this up. Because in the reason I just said that is not because I have to go or that I want to cut this off. It's that I almost I felt this urge to talk about AI now and these AI generated images and what you think those mean to art and what those say about the consciousness and our creativity and the Turing test and all the rest of that. And I kind of feel like that's an hour discussion that I can't even I can't even it is. And I have opinions about artificially generated art also very, very strong opinions about that. Let's let's do let's do an AI interview. Yeah, maybe so. Okay. I will talk to you later then have a good day. Thanks again to Dr. Andy Picat for joining me today on Skeptico. The one question I tee up from this interview is what the heck are we to make of the time space continuum that we think we're on when people like Andy seem to be able to twist it, turn it, manipulate it. And then I guess if I was going to sneak in a second question, why does that not necessarily lead to kind of a perfect knowledge of everything? Love to hear your thoughts. Track me down until next time. Take care. Bye for now.