 Welcome everybody. Hello and thank you for among all other interesting talks that we are having on DrupalCon in Barcelona. You choose to dwell into a topic of accessibility with me and how to make the internet and the world a bit better for everyone. Two cents about me. My background is more in translation and technical writing but I'm a big open source and technology enthusiast at the moment and working at the University of Barcelona. Web and data visualization directory statistical office and for the last year I've been collaborating with foundation for learning equality making KLite which is the lightweight server for Khan Academy video content offline server for that content and I was working I'm still working in making it more accessible. So I'm trying for being an expert most probably a lot of you have more in-depth technical knowledge than me and how to make accessibility work. I'm really passionate about it and I'm just following the full steps of like-minded folks. What are we going to cover today? For whom points for whom are we actually doing the accessibility for? Why do we bother? What are the benefits and what are the misconceptions of accessibility? How do we make it possible? More in a sense of strategy and best practices and some punish tips for accessible content. I will present resources that will be included into the presentation but I will not go too deep into into the code itself. So who do we do actually accessibility for? Now the latest World Health Organization fact sheet report from 2014 says that it's more than over the billion fee people about 15% of the world's population have some form of disability that means that between 110 and 190 million adults have a significant difficulties in functioning 15% of the world population. That's like another stats from EU statistics on income and living conditions. We have 8.5% have severe limitations and 17.5 have moderate limitations in everyday activities. These are for European adults over 16. If we do row numbers that's almost 1 in 4 over 100 million people in European Union 27 countries. There is a strong correlation between age and disability so further we go change demographics the numbers increase. When we go into nitty gritty we are normally presented with different types of disabilities. First you can have temporary disability. You can break an arm have a problem with your eye with hearing so you're basically just for the time being. Then you can have by design by decision actually as this blogger who to test herself tried to wear an eye patch for a week and learned that empathy is crucial. You can have it also situational for example I have a sensitivity so it's a sunlight and making me read on the beach is a mission impossible. You were asked why did I on earth decided to live in Barcelona but and must be a masochist. Anybody here taller than 10 to 6 feet you probably feel pretty disabled every time you go into a low-cost flight so I feel for you. And then we have people who have permanent disability so for those people technology is a lifeline. John is one of the few people in this world who's born without limbs and for her and her words technology is the limb that she never had. She has recently only 19 she's a disability right campaigner and he's she's been avoided one of outstanding young person the world awards. So we all regardless of age language physical ability mentally or delivery literacy can have specific needs and some point of our lives. We further have presented with this order or types of disabilities so you have visual disability auditory mobility and cognitive disability. If we go and talk about visual disability that includes blind people with low vision reduced field of vision sensitivity to flashes glares cataracts. There was several assistive technology devices that can be screen readers braille displays generally between three or four people's according to acoustics for US UK Canada cannot see well enough to read and here also the incidence increases with age but even more than visual the people with difficulty in seeing we have people with difficulty hearing. Numbers also where I from four to five people a percent of people and here also the incidence increases sharply over 60 and we have over 20 percent affected when they when they're over 75 years old. When we talk about mobility we have the study difficulty seven to ten percent of working-age adults have a severe difficulty. This includes people who suffered from stroke, traumatic brain, spinal cord injuries, cerebral palsy, various various types of this muscle dystrophies, sclerosis, even arthritis. Those people have severe difficulty using mouse so they will probably be using some kind of assistive technology even just navigated by keyboard or using a mouse stick some kind of head on or an eye tracker instead. Even more people suffer from cognitive disabilities so just thinking about reading difficulties we have numbers up to 20 percent people have reading difficulties including dyslexia and another 20 or 30 have limited literacy skills so this doesn't even include various types of cognitive disabilities like dementia come more with age. So for me the most important argument in whole accessibility story is it is for everyone because we all age. This is one of the last pictures I have my father a couple of months before he left us after struggling with Parkinson's so at some point of our lives sooner or later we will all need accessibility. Coming back to numbers another report from the health of organization 2011 shows exactly this increase in numbers there's a strong correlation with those disability and aging. By 2020 that's five years from now a half of European adults will be age 50 or over. Another interesting data there's there are more preferences higher for females from the women than for men. Changes slightly when you calculate it between countries because government compiled these statistics by questionnaires so they are not standardized but you have to take into account when you have a project what kind of audience do you have. In some countries you will have much bigger percentage of people older who are visiting your websites or content you are generating. If you go back to that European statistics from 2014 when we count population over 65 we have 50 million people 18 percent of our elders in Europe have severe disabilities and another 30 have moderate disability. So it is for everybody. Designing for extremes make leads to better design for everybody. Anybody here doesn't have a mobile? Okay so let's know. So one thing that I found out I was researching for this presentation is that Bell actually arrived patenting telephone because his parents his father and grandfather worked in a location speech technologies in 18th 19th century. His wife and mother were both deaf. So he was trying to improve the life of deaf community and that's how he arrived to patent the telephone. Then from Bell Labs we have transistor and transistor radius so basically we all have marvelous mobile technology today because somebody 150 years ago wanted to improve the life of deaf person. Another example for example curb cuts those transitions between sidewalk and street are introduced for people with wheelchairs. Anybody has kids? Okay so I guess you're very thankful for curb cuts because you have your strollers easier to walk. I'm thankful because every time I walk with a trolley I use curb cuts. Another time another thing that I wanted to mention is example of why designing for edge case for extreme is better is also seen in social level. When paid parental leave for women it was recognized as right. It eventually led for men fathers right to ask for and expect for the same. Every time we design for an edge case it ends up benefiting. Anybody still asking why? It's good for business. You have a bigger PI impact. Corporate social you can claim corporate social responsibility. It increases market share. One example from the UK is the Stasco supermarket implemented a fully accessible website of their online grocery store. It costed 35,000 pound to develop and ended up generating and generates estimated annual revenue at 1.1 million 1.6 million pounds. It's also another famous example of CNET in US. They had 30% increase in traffic after they provided transport. So increased market share especially because the spending power of older people often have they often have larger disposable income and leisure time. So this is a number that I actually had to look how much it is in euros. It says 1 trillion would be the aggregate annual income of people with disabilities in US. 1 trillion dollars. I have no idea how much money is that. Ended up being 90 900 billion euros. For UK it is calculated that they impaired and elderly have combined spending power 300 billion euros. Benefits, search engines, optimization. Did you ever try to Google Altag or Altatribute? You will get results for CEO not for accessibility. So that's one of the things that you can do to improve accessibility which will actually benefit more your CEO efforts. You can improve mobile access and overall usability. I have heard over and over from the people with vision problems and blind people that they use mobile version of Facebook. They don't use the full one because the mobile one is more accessible. Basically accessibility is good customer service. There's another very important benefit for business is because it reduces legal risk. So the same as gravity. It's the law. In Europe if you have any kind of services that you want to offer presented European Union for ICT products and services you have to observe a specific standard. Every country has their own standards and laws so regarding when you think about project that you have to do check the standards and laws for your own country because that's where the legal risk comes. In US they have section 58 which is right scheduled for refresh in 2015 and in Spain we have a norm called UNE. There's actually one thing that I another thing that I discovered. The Spanish Rural Decree from 2013 defends this disability not as an isolated property of the person but it's something that surges once the person interacts with the situation with limits and that represent barriers that limit her own life. So that's actually really advanced. That's how it is included. It can represent everybody of us. We can all at some point of our lives have encountered barriers and limits to our everyday activities. And of course web content taxability guidelines have been accepted as an ESO standard. These are just a couple of very famous legal sentences mostly in US. Netflix after this court case was obligated to present captured captions for their video production. So they actually have the was it a daredevil or the famous superhero the blind superhero? Is it a daredevil? Okay so they will produce closed caption for this video production. And the last thing that I included one of the accessibility consultants Karl Groves started in 2011 a list of various legal cases related to accessibility. In 2012 when he stopped updated he had more than 50 mostly US but they are they're extending. So how do we actually do it? The most important thing is for you to remember is that it's cheaper to build accessibility feature from the get go from the beginning the beginning from the beginning than to retrofit any kind of digital content later. Some estimate says that if you build accessibility from the beginning it will represent one to three percent of your global budget. If you set up to do it once it's done it flies to ten percent. When they tell you that that's more cost that you don't have at the moment it will be thought included later just think about how many of us still try to cater to users of Internet Explorer 8 or 9? Anybody? Okay so that's much less. Exactly because three percent of users still browse Internet Explorer 9 another three or four use 8. So the combined numbers for users of Internet Explorer 8 9 and 10 is less than 10 percent. We have 15 percent people with disabilities so that's one strong argument to rebut somebody's example why there is no budget for accessibility. Let's talk a bit of strategy and some best practices. So I hope that this part is inspired by really good research that you should explore it's John Carter's eight-step process for leading change. How do you make the case for accessibility in your agencies in your projects? I hope that the first point which is a sense of urgency you already get that from the first part of this presentation. Accessibility is shared responsibility so you will have more easier path if you divide it divided between content managers, designers front-end, back-end. Each one, each group, each team will have one part of accessibility. The initiative has really good resources regarding how to divide responsibilities. You should prepare business case. In this atmosphere you have allies in coalitions. Your goals, roles and policies should be as broad as possible inside of organization. If you have to disguise accessibility as search engine optimization with the points that we mentioned before, the most important thing is to include users any way you can. Even if you are experienced you've tried screen readers. It is always important to try to use somebody who is actually using screen reader for everyday work, not just to test something. They will have different perspective. Don't try to fix everything else. They probably tell you that each time there is some kind of change management. Don't try to fix everything at once. Start with small steps and make that process a part of the culture. I know there were a couple of interesting style guide talks yesterday. I'm sorry I missed that one. That's one of the options that you should explore. Make accessibility style guide for your team. Include snippets of code which could be recycled the same way you use style guide and cascading style shades. That way you start with a small wins but you actually integrate accessibility into your project lifecycle. That way you can ensure maintainability and the whole QA process and testing. When we talk about guidelines there are a lot of acronyms. Once you dive into accessibility you will find guidelines, recommendations, requirements, success criteria, acronyms like WKAG, section this one, section that one. Somebody once referred to all these new terms as being forced to learn a new language for somebody who is actually trying to confuse you on purpose. Those are really, really long and complex documents. Understanding web content, accessibility guidance, second version, it's 220 pages long. How to meet the requirements is like 385. That's a lot. Another name I got for it was like, it reads like constitution. But all we who do web offering, we didn't really learn HTML from specification. Anybody did that? We learned it from tutorials and various other resources. So don't get intimidated by the complex document especially that happens the first time you dive into. It's like this is unreadable. Specifications do need to be complex but you can find other resources. It has never been more easier to learn how to make websites and digital content more accessible than it is today. One of the most important things is to remember, I would like this to be one of the first takeaways, just remember this. Always remember that when you make yourself a question, is this accessible? So the people have to be able to proceed it, to understand it, to do something with that content or action that you present it. And Robust refers to being available for all different devices and being able to sustain future. Another takeaway is that you have to think about how to offer alternatives. Never offer content in one and only one way. Just read, just sound, just see. Okay? Think that when you make a content available in high contrast version, okay? It will not only be benefit for those who have low vision problems. It will have benefit for people whom, like me, they can't read in highly illuminated settings on the beach or wherever. Whenever you offer time caption and transcripts that benefits people with auditory difficulties, but also serves those who, for example, prefer to... Sorry, this was audio versus... Those who prefer to read, those who prefer to listen. For example, think about long commutes. You would prefer to have something listen and not only read. Caption and transcripts are the big search end in benefit because that content is searchable. Okay? And another thing to keep in mind, consistent terminology, structure and navigation and the language, plain language that you use for your content that will lower your localization cost. Okay? So it will benefit all the people who have cognitive disabilities, but it will be a big plus for your effort to make your content localizable. So let's try and think about tennis tips. Okay? First of all, I would like to just... Are people here? Where? How does the screen reader work, for example? Okay, more or less. Think about the version of your content stripped from all the style. So you just get this one leaner long document. That's how screen reader sees. So it's really, really important to have the appropriate structure. Headings must be sequential. You should have unique in the scripted title possibly with the tag H1. Don't use headings to style your content. Okay? Style goes to CSS. Headings should be the structure of the content itself. So don't jump just for the style sake. Okay, I like this H1, but then I'm going to put H4. No. Because screen readers are marvelous pieces of software, and they present a lot of opportunities for the user. They let them, if you as the content manager, designers, and developers make it proper, user can jump and just make read headings, or can just jump from link to link, or can jump from this section to different sections. So you have to structure your content accordingly. So the screen reader can actually read in the order that you would like to. Okay? So title, headings, page landmarks, you can use either HTML5 or you can use semantic HTML gives you a lot of accessibility features for really, really little development effort. So use section, header, footer, main, that is all perceived by the screen reader and presented to the user. Okay? You try to think a bit like a machine. Okay? It's not just enough when you think about making content accessible. It's just enough to think about the user with disability. You also have to think a bit like a machine, meaning that you have to know what information from your content is accessible to the computer and will be presented in which way it will be presented to the user. I just have included these links with there are a lot of really, really interesting free and open source tools, more than ever. So the slides will be available. You can use that. I'm not going to spend more time on it. Another important point is keyboard navigation. That's mostly thought I mean, I love to navigate by keyboard and it's usually do programmers don't like to use the mouse lot prefer to navigate by keyboard. What to test? You should use tab and shift up to go through links. See if the order you can navigate through links is the correct one. When you are inside the menu, use error keys to test if you can access all the options inside the menus. Okay. Think about including what they call skip two links. Okay. So this is one menu that you include. It could be visible or invisible. You choose that. People who use free new areas or are navigating by keyboard. If you don't want, you have a lot of links on your on your content, you would rather present them option to skip something and choose as you would do with the mouse. So that's one element should be on top, right? First element after the body tag. Access keys are debatable, use debatable, so you'd rather avoid those. And please, please, please, please define visible focus state. I hate when I can see and I can use my hands and I hate when I cannot see where where is my where am I with with the mouse at the point because or at least don't mess with the default browser outline for focus. Okay. Sometimes people have this really bad habit of stripping it and not styling accordingly. The best way would be to define focus at the same time you define a whole state. Okay. For a really good example about skip to links, try web aim.org page. It's a really, really good full resources website about accessibility. Let's talk about images. So we have this elusive alt attribute, which is technically the most easier to implement. But it's the most frequent accessibility fail you find when you do testing. So I know there is a real long nod about discussion about this. And I know there are things in place which would remind you each time you include the image to include some kind of alternative text. Think about describing the image conveying both functionality and content. The good tip is try to describe the image the way you would describe it when you talk over the phone. All right. So not to extend, but enough information so that whenever you are relaying that information has a good idea. Of course, localization demands you not to put text inside images, not to put the image inside the image. The image is localizable. And you have image with purely decorative intention. Put an empty, at least empty tag. There are other options, but put empty to out tag. I can't stress enough the importance of that for search engine optimization. Remember that Google search out tag, you won't find results about the disability. You will find that your CDM could be down. So that's one of the reasons why you should always include alternative content for images. That's also another thing where working group or HTML working group has like 45 pages long document about how to properly describe images. So there are a lot of tools that can help you. Okay. But just for a start, don't leave any not described. Okay. So since we touched the images, let's touch color and contrast. Anybody noticed this sidebar on the light? Did you notice that it was changing colors? Okay. I'm glad. So that was my intention to show you what happens. People who have color blindness or more formally color vision deficiencies. They affect roughly 10% of population, mostly men. And it is also highly dependent from country to country to race to race. And another interesting piece of information, links originally and that history of a blue and underlined that ended up being a great accessibility resources because color blindness for the blue hues is the most rarest of all others. So and the reason they put the underline is because even those people who cannot perceive the blue color of the links can perceive it by seeing the underlying types. So there are a couple of types. The most important thing here is never to convey anything just by color. Always find other way to convey the meaning. Why? Anybody from London? Okay. Do you see something special in this underground map? Yeah. Lines have something specific. So this is the map which took into account that people might not be able to see differences in colors. So apart from color, they put other graphic elements which would aid people who cannot distinguish colors. Do stuff like that. Offer alternatives. When we talk about color and contrast, the best advice I can give you, choose good contrast, sorry, good contrast from the beginning. It is not clear the discussion between what is better, dark on white, white on dark. People prefer different things. So as the next step, make alternative CSS color schemes and let people, users choose. Okay. Somebody would prefer. I've heard both sides. So there is one on some accessibility resources, you will find phrases like accessibility option of a SIS. Meaning like if you offer different stuff, you cannot decide on one good contrast scheme. I not really agree with that. I would say, yeah, choose one good color contrast scheme. But then as the next step, offer different to users. Somebody may prefer something that you haven't chosen as the more general option. Color and contrast have a lot of tools. Your designers. Designers as your team will have, in Italian, they say, embarrassment of options, number of options. So choose what you need, what you would prefer from all that available, but choose something and use it. Since we are here, talk about the Jupal community. I guess nobody's using the tables for layout. But yeah, tables are for data. Don't use them for layout. Program your project, including headings, caption summary, if you use tables for data. Links and forms. Links similar. They have to be concise, but have to be descriptive. Don't put links just text inside the link, like click or more or here. Because at the point when the screen reader user chooses just to navigate through all the links on the page, he or she will get just more, more, more, more, more, more red from the screen reader. So they have to be descriptive. Forms have to have clear labels, grouped, well, field sets. Don't mess with the tab in order, unless you know what you're doing. I remember once I used the tab navigated through and it jumped on a form which was on the bottom of the page because the designer or programmer of that website choose to put a tab set attribute as like one or two or three and they were at the bottom of real long page. So basically skipped all the content just to get to that form and that's not what the user was looking. Avoid captures or at least choose the version which doesn't have participatory issues. Think about the writing, okay? Sentences, paragraphs, use active voice and consistent vocabulary, format and navigation. That will help a lot. People with cognitive issues, everyone, and your localization costs. That's like the understandable from poor principles. I occasionally use this font that may not be something that you will use often, okay? But there are fonts designed specifically for dyslexia. Try to follow the tips from the previous page. Columns not wide, up to nine words. Divide text into paragraphs. Decide adequate line spacing if you have images. Leave enough space around that will all help. Always line on the left, of course, that will all help people who have dyslexia to understand. As I said, there is a lot of tools and resources. I just included a few of them. Really nice add-ons, plug-ins for both, for browsers. Just remember one thing. Technical compliance does not necessarily mean functional compliance. So even if when you use and you test something and you have like all greens, just like couple of manual checkups because a lot of those tools will present you and options, okay, I didn't find anything which warrants an error or warning, but you should check manually stuff, okay? Even if you have all green, that does not necessarily mean that it's functionally compliant, okay? So always test in person you and even more important whenever you have an option test with users. When we have, when we talk about multimedia, always think about alternatives. So if you have only audio, have the test transcript ready. It will benefit, the disability will benefit such engine optimization. If you have video without audio, put the test description on the side. And when you have video with audio, offer closed captions and interactive transcript. Don't auto-play another of please, please, please, please don't do that. It takes me a moment just to wake up from the video which is played aloud. Think about the person who cannot see or who cannot move, the head one or eye tracker fast enough to stop the video which started played automatically, okay? That's big usability issue. I always get mad when I found it. There are accessible video players, quite a lot of them. This is one openly available Google Doc matrix with media player disability comparison where you can check all the options which are included, choose the one which is good for your project. There is also an accessible YouTube video player. Just plug in the link inside and it will have this nice and accessible multimedia control. You have the, you can see in the first image, how does the transcript look like. So this is not only for people who cannot hear. This only helps, this also helps those who would benefit from being able to read and follow. For example, think about if you don't have enough budget to cover localization cost, okay? That's a huge burden on the budget. But if you present transcript, even better, some kind of interactive transcript which will follow and sign the phrase which is actually spoken, that will help a lot of your foreign users. Maybe they don't understand the spoken, but they can read another benefit. Just a quick mention in case you use accessible PDFs. Always go to the source. If you need to present some kind of content in PDF format, you have to make it accessible in Word, in writer, in whichever application you export it from. And then export is pretty, do not do printing because at that point the accessibility feature of those altering tools are not conserved. They're actually getting pretty good. Both office and labor office have good accessibility features. Make use of that. For professionally accessible PDF tools you will have to use Acrobat Pro because it has the best checkers. And of course make use of all accessibility JUPAL resources. There are quite a lot lately. I've seen, this is the webinar from my briefing, maintainer of the accessibility module. Check it out. They will present you all the options that have the people from the accessibility group have been working on for the last few years for the development of JUPAL 8. And that will be all. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed the presentation. Please leave feedback on the website. And of course we are, I'm open for questions. Andrew has just one quick announcement to make. Hello everyone. Yes, so tomorrow if we want to carry on this kind of conversation, learn more about accessibility. We do have a BoF session booked. It's going to be in room 130 and it's going to be at one o'clock. So just after lunch. That's the time slot just after lunch. The Radina said about making allies and forming coalitions and changing the culture in organizations. So what we want to do with a BoF is really just get us all in the same room. People are working with accessibility. So we can just connect with each other. What we talk about, it depends who turns up. We might be developers and designers. We might be project managers, content writers. So we could, yeah, everyone. So we might look at how we're moving accessibility in our own organizations and clients. Or we might look at what Drupal's capabilities are. The topic is up to you. But tomorrow at one p.m. I'm open for questions. Go. Yeah. He was asking are there organizations that can be contacted in case you don't have a person with disability to help you test the website? Of course, all the countries as far as I know, at least in Europe, have their own organization. For example, here in Spain the big one is called ONCE, or Graduación Nacional de Ciego de España, Spanish National Organization for the Blind. And in case you need both professional advice or somebody who will put you into contact with possible testers, I'm sure you can find something in your own country. Just look for your local. I mean, I even know them in Serbia. So if Serbia has, I guess, every other country has it in Europe. I will include in the presentation right now. I remember that there are a couple of resources of how to contact which, where to go, to knock on doors to try to find somebody who will help you test possibly your content. Yeah. Put the mobile designer on board. Get him to be a part of your team. I mean, you have to do for some evangelism in your team. So your project will have more likelihood of success if you first have allies among the designers, developers, and then go to the upper management. So first you have to win somebody from the design team. I don't have, you know, recipe. This is the best advice I can give you. Yeah, sure. Go. Is this working? Anyone who's a web developer or at least a front-end designer developer will be aware of the fragmentation of browsers, Internet Explorer, you know, Chrome, etc. Sure. What does something similar exist with screen readers and people's preferences? Is there one that's dominant is or, you know, there are several. It's kind of like operating system story. There used to be one big Microsoft like screen reader. It's called JAWS. I think it's acronym for jobs for job access, something like that, which used to have like absolute dominance in the market. But it has been declining because more options are there, for example, or everything on Macintosh platform, iPhone, iPod, Macs, they have their own screen reader and it's really, really built deep into. So voiceover. Okay. So everybody who uses Mac probably uses and they have really, really good opinion of it, according to what I'm told, they use all voiceover. On the PC side, you have JAWS, which have been declining. I think right now it has a market share around 40% not really one with my life already, but something like that. Because in the last four or five years, one have been rising because it's open source and it's free. It's called NVDA, non visual desktop access. So when people test accessibility, they usually if they have access to JAWS, they use JAWS with Firefox, Interness Polar, Chrony, whatever, or you just download NVDA and test with that. There is also, I would, as a first step, I would recommend you, there is one Firefox simple plug-in called thanks. It doesn't really read, but it will present you, okay, in a sidebar, the text of what would eventually be read. It's not 100% equal what you will get read at output from NVDA jobs, but as a first step, it gives you really, for example, it helped me a lot to fix some errors of dynamically generated content in my last project. It was a Django project with a lot of libraries behind, a lot of calculations. So basically what screenreader it was like evaluation for users in this video 50% or this video, this exercise gained 50%. So basically screenreader before I put my hands on accessibility, we're reading just the numbers, okay. So I first actually saw that in JAWS. I haven't even got to the testing with a screenreader. I would just like 50%, 30%, 100%. I was like, what is this? So it can be a first step. Okay. And then of course you have the free NVDA screenreader, which you can download use free. Thank you. Somebody else was over there. Yeah, sure. Okay. Okay. They're my best advice would be instead of looking for accessibility consultant, get a good technical writer, expert in plain language, because they have a lot of experience in how to make content more simple, but yet still usable, even if it's okay. Yeah, you have like a lot of content, complex menus. That's still even more question of information architecture, and even somebody who is experiencing technical communication. Think, think about technical communicators deal with a lot of that stuff. Somebody who has to present a technical manual for a Boeing. Okay. So that person probably has a lot of experience on how to structure well, structure information, especially if you have different kind of stakeholders and readers. Okay. So you present one content to engineer another content to see a third content for, I don't know, somebody who wants to find out how to use recline seats. Okay. Okay. Anybody else? More questions? Oh, sorry. Go. Um, I just wondered, um, have you come across any issues with sites that rely on advertising being less inclined to invest in this sort of technology because yes, and that's like a big fail. And whether you have any ideas about how best to just present the information to people are when our older have more hearing problems, seeing problems, cognitive problems. And what I said before, those are the people who have the highest aggregate income, leisure time. So those people are more inclined to actually use your site, just, you know, make them possible. I'm just thinking the fact that screen readers, screen readers, et cetera, won't actually show them any adverts. So project managers, et cetera, are likely to not value them as much as users who see the adverts. Okay, I see your dilemma. And they're not thinking this consciously, they're not evil project managers, they just, it's just as business, it doesn't get the focus. Yeah, yeah, I understand. Just make them think that I, for example, haven't seen a Google ad in ages. Yeah. Okay. And I'm not the only one. People have a lot of blockers, ad blockers. So think about even normal users will find a way to eventually block your blocker content, you know. Okay. So I would not take that as like, in-face argument of not to invest in another possible. There are options in accessibility, guidelines, how to present content that changes, okay, which is dynamic. So technically it is. I would not advise that you use it necessarily in more assertive way to present the ads, but you should investigate area, dynamic content, okay, and dynamic roles. You could have some options to present to your business stakeholders. Anybody else? Okay. Thank you very much for your attention. Yeah, do come to the app session tomorrow. We'll be there.