 I don't know. No, I'm not meeting my sister. Ah, is she? Ah, yeah. Chickens! It's just tough to see it. We've got power in this. We can stop this from happening by stopping consuming the products. It's hard what happens to them. They wouldn't want to eat if they knew what happened. No, we're from a farm, so we don't eat chickens. Chickens have legs like that. Oh, you don't? But you still eat them? I do, yes. Chickens are our friends, not food. Probably. I'm killing an animal. You shoot animals for a dog? You shoot animals for a living? Yeah, to eat. You don't think animal cruelty is wrong? I hate animal cruelty. Yeah, I'm a massive animal. I'm trying to say I don't feel bad. So you're going against your nature? Absolutely, I don't feel bad. Isn't that saying something? That you shouldn't be doing it, maybe? No. But you might have been conditioned through your big condition to think that's normal and natural to shoot animals for food. What are we doing for 6,000 years? We've been killing each other for 6,000 years too. Does that make murder justified? Absolutely. So there's things that we've been doing traditionally that aren't morally okay. In the animals' eyes, there's no reason to do it. So when an animal comes to you to kill you to eat, you're just going to go mad. Fair enough, mate. Animals try to kill you, you're allowed to defend yourself, but cows, chickens, pigs, never hurt no one. Chicken never hurt no one. But we're breeding them into existence for the sole purpose of confiding them against their will and murdering them. Billions. I'm talking 150 billion a year. We kill that many fish, that they have to measure in tons. And I'm going to have to handle it. I understand all that. And if you don't need to go out and hunt, you're not in the back... What else am I going to eat? Go to the shop and buy food? Someone else has gone out and hunted and killed. Well, you can eat plants. And no one has to die for that. You can greatly reduce the death. But then we can take it down to the level where fuck it, the plant has feelings. How do you know the plant has feelings? Because it's scientific consensus that plants aren't sentient. There's no scientist, no rational scientist on earth that thinks that plants are sentient. They don't experience subjective reality. They don't have a brain or a central nervous system. Animals clearly avoid pain and suffering. They show affection. They want to look after their young. You take a cow's calf away from her. She's distressed. They pine her. So, you know that these animals are intelligent and they're sentient. If you've been a farmer, you've been around them. Absolutely. They have the capacity to be like our pets. Like a cow. Yeah, absolutely. We just think there's a better way. And they look like I understand them. We can keep doing what we've been doing in the past. Killing each other, killing animals. But if it's not necessary for our health or survival we have supermarkets with fruits and vegetables and grains. You can be healthy without meat and dairy. And then we'll have another theory. That's fine. We're still going to have a cow animal. We're still going to have to get rid of animals. You're saying if we all went vegan we'd have... We don't kill animals. We have to kill wild animals. You have to protect the animals that you want to kill for your own benefit. Otherwise, how are they all going to get out of it? What are those animals doing in your property? In the first place? They sell the calves. You're killing them. They're making money off of their backs. So we're saying that that is unnecessary. There's things that happen in nature that we can't... We should let nature be nature and we can do things like... But wouldn't you say this is nature? I mean, hasn't it been nature for the last three thousand years? Factory farms. We've got seven billion people. I don't believe in it. I hate them. When you're going to kill an animal that doesn't mean it's welfare. When it dies, it should be horrible. I hate that. A bullet in the head in a happy cow is just as bad as a bullet in a head in a cow that suffered their whole life. But it's not. They don't even know they did it. But they know that they want to live. Does that justify killing someone? Think about it. If I killed someone and they didn't even know they died, would that make that active murder justify? That's fine, typically. You've got humans, you've got animals. So we've got humans and we've got dogs. Am I going to go around killing dogs? Yeah, it's not justified. We think it's morally abhorrent in our society. We do, because we treat dogs as our best friend. But for them, it's their food. You go out in the North, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders kill turtles. I'll say it happened. They eat and I'll beat them. They kill dugongs. Yeah, that doesn't make it okay, though. Just because one society... What are we going to eat up there? I mean, they have a little bit of bush-tucker, etc. Are you in that situation? No, but they are. What else? Do you know what I mean? Let's just say there's these jungle men. There's jungle men that have to kill animals to survive. But we're not jungle men. We're in suburbia. They're still going to have to kill us a lot. That's what they eat. But they're in a different situation. That's got nothing to do with it. Yeah, it does. We're in a society where we can go to the supermarket and buy grains. And there's like... We're using animal products, probably. Yeah, but we'd move away from animal products if we weren't killing 150 billion a year. We wouldn't use their entrails and their feces to fertilize crops. We wouldn't have all this waste. What are we going to use to fertilize crops for the grain that people are going to have to eat? We can use another means of farming. You've got your fish-bloody stuff, but that's still fish out of the ocean. Do you know what I mean? It's never going to stop. The whole factory farming and all that shit, I hate it. The pig farming, I hate it. I do agree that... So if we all want to eat meat, 7 billion of us, all want a steak sandwich, how are we going to do that with your method? I agree with the pre-range. You know, we're feeding all the resources that are going to feed these animals. There's no other way to do this. There's no environmentally sustainable way to do this. We do understand we are overpopulated in the world and it's only going to get worse. We've got 56 billion land animals at the moment, just for farm, just for food. This is what needs to happen so we can eat them. We're saying it's totally unnecessary. These animals are sentient beings. We're breeding them into existence. But no other reason to make money off their backs or to cut their head off and eat their bodies. And Ben, you know, in what world is this okay? Yeah, but in what world is it okay to have 56 billion animals? How many people are involved in that? You've probably got 20 billion people involved in that industry worldwide. What are you going to do? What are you going to do with their lives? With their livelihood? My great-grandparts plead the land. They can't be out on a boat. There's a victim involved, isn't there? The victims are the animals. Yeah, but there's other things we can make money off. But where are you going to put all these people? If we switch out the meat industry... There will be plant-based meats now. They're making it out of soy and pea protein and all these other amazing plant-based proteins. How are they going to grow all these amazing... We've got oat milk, rice milk, almond milk. How are they going to grow all these amazing... Well, we managed to grow so billions of tons of crops to feed to all these animals. Yeah, with fertilizers, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, there's other ways. There's alternatives, though. We're saying it's completely unnecessary. We're saying it's completely unnecessary. We're saying it's completely unnecessary. We're saying it's completely... There's other ways of doing this that don't involve what we're doing now. What we're doing now is... Like, any sane, rational person would look at that and say, I don't want to be a part of that. Yeah, but no one knows. Even, like, it's just shooting a cow on the head. Like, that act there makes you feel uncomfortable. And if you showed your children or showed some children that, we'd be like, oh, this is just nature. Boom, we're just shooting this happy cow on the head. Like, here, you want to eat its body with us? You'd have to hide that from them. You'd have to say, no, this is called beef. It's in a burger. It's a burger. It's fine. There's no violence in this burger. Like, we're lying to our children. That's why you're telling the truth. That's the way of life. It's the Bible. You think it's okay to show children that shooting an animal on the head is okay? I've seen it wrong when I've been ruined, though. Yeah, I think that's... And that's fine. And I understand that. But if I went 20 years, the first 20 years of my life, and my parents would have hit me and it would have to get shot. That animal has to get killed. It grows up. It has to get killed so that you would... If that hit that to me and I got 20 years of age, I would be absolutely... I would probably be doing something with similar things. Just because we conditioned children to violence to make them think it's okay does not make the violence okay. It's a bullet in the head's dead. It's got no idea. A bullet in the head is violence. You'd have to agree with me on that. Come on. In what other context wouldn't it be violence, a bullet in the head? But you don't kill another human to eat it. Some people do. What if we did? Make it okay if we started... It's not very long that Marys is still doing it. There's a reason we don't shoot people in the head because we know that that person wants to live a life without suffering. We know that they deserve... So where do we draw the line? Animals are just worthless pieces of objects that we can just use and exploit and kill with our art. So we decide when their life ends. We do. You know, if I'm going to go anywhere where I'm going, the last thing I'm going to be worried about is if I'm an animal. So there is much bigger things in this world that I'm worried about. You don't think about animals? No, I don't. I have my pets and I have my... What if I shot your pets in the head at Nathan? Yeah, I'd probably shoot you too. But what if I was hungry? So you only care about the animals that you care about but not about the actual animal itself. You only care about your animals because they make you... You have to make that disconnection what you have to do. If I'm out in the water and I have to look at an animal, I'm starving and I have to shoot an animal and I have to eat. I'm going to look and go, I'll haul you and leave it big and starve to death. You're not in that situation though. But I am because I need to eat. We're vegan. I've been vegan for nearly four years now. I haven't had to go out and kill an animal to survive. I haven't. And I want you to prove to me in that last four years that nothing to do with animals has gone anywhere in the years of being vegan through the years. Well, that's not reality. The reality is the world without animals. I could either eat the vegan food and kill a bunch of animals on top of that or I could try to minimise the suffering and violence in my life by causing the least amount of harm. That's amazing. Well, it's not about me at the end of the day. Well, it is. It's about the amount of animals that go to slaughterhouses that are unnecessary. The ones that are confined and put in trucks or shot in the head on farms used for their skin. They keep warm somehow. We've been raping and pillaging villages for centuries. A lot of... Absolutely, it's still going on. Is it okay though? No. We need to move past it. You think we need to move past it though? Or do you want to stay in the... We're still stuck in it. Technology now. We're moving past it. We think there's a better way. The way forward is like... You don't agree? To a certain extent. You don't agree with this though? I don't agree, I mean... You think that this looks bad? No, I think... I hate all that stuff. I know... You hate it, but you still will buy the products? If an animal is going to have a life, I want to have a happy, healthy life until the stage that dies. When it dies, it's a cool, cruelness that's not a harm. That makes you feel better inside your heart? Because you agree that animals deserve a life without suffering? Yeah. But they deserve a bullet in the head if we're going to eat them? They haven't done nothing to deserve that though. Yeah, but that doesn't... Yeah, true, we're on the same thing though. They don't know what's happened, so it makes it okay. Okay. You think that's cool? Yeah, absolutely. I have my gun last, so I have a gun. Animals ever suffer when you shoot them? No. You always get a clean shot every time. I don't even know what's happened. You could have got a vegan burger that night though. I could have, but I don't look in the city. We have nothing vegan out there. Here's some more information. If you ever think about it before you shoot that animal in the head, have a think about... Imagine if the animal had guns. Yeah. Make it interesting. Thanks for the conversation, I appreciate that. Yeah, for sure. You'll be vegan soon enough.