 So we are going to hear a presentation about the state of women in Debian currently It's going to be presented by Miriam Ries who has been part of the Debian women project since 2005 Patty Langasek who has been attending DeQoM since 2004 has finally decided to join the new Debian Developer process this year. Hello. My name is Patty Langasek. I have been somewhat Involved in Debian for nine years now since Debian 4 Well, I'm Miriam Ries. I came in 2004 the first time and I came through Debian women So I know that it's important for this project and they work to get more women into Debian So Debian women actually originally started in 2004 and what we want to cover today is the journey from 2004 until today So how has the Debian project improved to Debian and how has the Debian women project actually accomplished its goals? in the beginning You can see we do have a couple of Images of the Debian women People congregating at different Debian comms At Debian 4 was the beginning of Debian women I'm Erin Clark and Amaya Amaya Rodrigo gave presentation in Porto Alegre discussing the the concerns that women have in getting involved in Debian and The amazing thing was there was such a huge turnout that they overfilled the main talk room Trying to just get across why we need to get women involved in Debian and how we can do it What it did for us was it opened that dialogue so that We could start having this open conversation with the community at large about diversity in general not just women and Thus the birth of the Debian women project we started with very simple means we Created an IRC channel then on free node. It's the same channel, but now we're on OFTC We have created a mailing list to for people to basically Feel welcomed into Debian and to feel less intimidated and getting involved having people being able to respond to them in a Friendly welcoming non-threatening manner and we also created our website the Debian women website Which just gives our main main goals and our missions But bearing in mind that Debian exists to welcome everyone And Debian women, which is a sub project within Debian. It's it's not separate from Debian at all We exist to encourage and promote women to be more active and participate fully in Debian Our mission is three fold first we intend to balance and diversify Debian for the better of Debian We do this by actively engaging with the interested women with the women who want to be involved and By encouraging participation and involvement in the Debian project Second we want to promote women's involvement in Debian So we want the women who are contributing to Debian to be actively acknowledged We want everybody to know that these are contributors and what they're contributing to Debian We provide mentoring and role models Marga's an excellent role model for pretty much all women in Debian She has she is instrumental in helping everybody for example We also want to create opportunities for collaboration with new and current members in the Debian project and Mostly we welcome the involvement of everyone interested in increasing the participation of women in Debian not just women so This all started in 2004 we developed our mission statement We started actually branching out and reaching out to women to get them involved to get a good starting point early in 2005 Magni oynsyn oynsyn oynsyn did a master's thesis study to participate to basically analyze the participation of women in the mailing lists she also collected some data from other studies and what she found was that across the the open-source community there's less than two percent of women actually actively involved and Even worse than that in Debian. There was only 0.3 percent participation on the mailing lists Just FYI in the tech industry at the time women participation in tech industry where they were getting Actually paid for their work and contributions was 20 percent. So we still fall well below Even what industry standards are So the take-home is that Debian has less than half of the participation levels of other comparable projects just a few numbers of what she actually Studied she looked at these three main mailing lists in Debian Debell There was probably the worst participation of women Which isn't surprising because the percentage of women was really low in Debian vote We had a pretty low percentage in Debian women. We were still less than half percent participating on the Debian women mailing list Yes So that was nine years ago. Surely we're doing better now, right? So Laura Jonerina actually recreated this this study and analyzed similar Parameters we do have I do want to give full disclosure that the dates are not similar But the percentages are still pretty honest still pretty spot-on when we look at other data in Debian Debell There is no change In Debian vote, there's some change. We have a little bit more participation with women But not not a lot for a nine-year increase in Debian women. Yay. We're more than 50% So some more statistics to kind of put this into perspective about what's going on in 2005 we had three female Debian developers out of 965 in 2013 we now have 18 Debian developers that is an increase and and we we don't want to play down the fact that we now have 15 more Debian developer women but If you look at the increase of men in the in developers, we're still not quite We're not keeping up pace and we're not really promoting ourselves as much as we need to five women voted for DPL in this last election Versus 385 men so The participation level of the women is actually significantly lower than the participation of level of the men We have we've had one DPL candidate and In 2005 we had nine women in the new maintainer queue in 2013 we have one just to drive home the point We're not Really getting much more traction and women being involved in Debian at this point You'll notice the participation in Deb conf We have pretty much the same amount of women coming to Deb conf from Deb conf 7 in Edinburgh to today and You'll notice women are not Actually joining the new maintainer queue They're uploading we're getting their first uploads here But they're not going into the new maintainer queue and they're not adding their key to the key ring So they're there They're interested But they're not actually coming into the project Yeah, I wanted to to include this this slide to see how other some other projects in free software Make managing and how these numbers can really be increased and I'm having these figures there. They're quite old. They are from from 2010 in Ubuntu and in Mozilla, which are two projects that seem to attract women better than we are and In Ubuntu in 2010 they were already 5% of women developing the involved in the develop somehow in the development of the project taking into account that Involving the development is a very Well, it's a very wide word. It means from participating in community to make recommendations translations and stuff And in Mozilla, they are they are already over 15 percent or 16 first percent they were already there in in 2010 and These two parades there are other parades, which I don't have the numbers But they are also higher than than us for example, you know pro in the project and stuff There are other parades doing worse than us do but these numbers show that whenever some project is Well, some things do work There's some things that can be done that seems to achieve some results and to get more women to into the development. So the point is What are the questions would be what's Preventing us even though we have been we have evolved a lot since 2005 and stuff We had we're more we're a more welcoming community. We have improved a lot in a lot of ways We're still not getting more women and the I would like to know to find out where the obstacles are where why I'm not Joining what way they're not more women joining the development of Debian and We don't we still we really don't know where we are losing the women. I mean are women not using Debian? I mean they're using Maybe preferably don't know Fedora Susie even Are they using Debian but they don't feel attracted or we're not Being able to show them that they can join the development somehow in some way Do they try to to get into the development and then they are scared and fly and flee away the first contact We don't know what what were the problem the problems lie What do we know is that there are some certain barriers entry barriers that affect women different than men statistically this old statistics and I would like to do something from the women here How many women are already involved somehow some way as they've been contribute as they've been contributors Yeah, how many women are not? It's the rest Okay, how many that's okay males. How many people here know women that Partners sisters of stuff that are not involved in Debian Yeah, okay Okay, right. So why do you think why don't The women here that are not involved in the development of Debian or the people who know women who are not involved in the development of Debian Why do you think they are not involved? What I mean, it's an open question. I really would like to get some answers So actually my wife she's really asking well, how can I get involved and and and she's Well, she's sort of scared of getting involved because she cannot hack she cannot package She cannot code and it's always like well, yes getting contact with the people and So we arranged we couldn't arrange her getting here for debcom. This is a bit unfortunate at that point, but I Think this contributing for a non coder for a non-packager for a non IT person is Unclear. It's not it's not so evident What are the jobs are there? So, yeah, so it's not That is not so evident that there are a lot of things to do in Debian that not coding that not even technical Yes, it's it's it's about them I was asked to stand up actually It's it's about shyness maybe In that case not generally but in that case it might be but I she already tried to at least getting contact with Something and try to do I mean has she tried to to find out if there's something in which she would like to get involved Or she's just like I don't feel there's nothing anything there for me. Yes Well, she's she's involved in the Debian Edward work. She's involved in the we deploy Debian Edward schools locally So she's involved in the local project and she has Debian on her notebook because nothing else is allowed at home Yes, and and I think I think I don't think I don't know what it actually is We have to investigate at home probably yes, but it's it's I hear shyness. I hear well What can I do and well? I cannot contribute because maybe package stuff like that. Maybe she finds I mean, I know it's a common feeling Debian or getting in contact with Debian at the beginning quite intimidating Sorry, I mean does she feel you said she's she's kind of shy in a way It says she finding Debian maybe too intimidating too Scary you mean you mean doing it all in public and stuff like that or yeah like getting involved of more less I don't want to say the word officially because that's do you know what her impression of Debian women is? Do I know what do you know what her impression of Debian women is what what? She believes Debian women is poor No, actually, I don't know I don't know so she's I know that she's reading the list and and at some points she's wondering why to differentiate between men and women So what is the actual goal? She's she's querying that but you have to ask her not me actually More I have just have some mics So I just want to say 17 years ago I came to Debian because a woman just invited me So she it was Susan Kleinman and thanks to her for all the time. She she compiled for Linux kernel for a special Device I needed and that's why I thought Debian is right distribution for me So the other thing I wanted to say As far as I know in IT Generally women's are have not so big a chair like men, but in non-free software the chair is way larger than in free software, right? Yeah, and I was thinking about Well, free software is about freedom. It's not really about harmony. We are swimming upstream all the time and Maybe the harmony we would like to need in Debian is Something people is not really Attracting because they really do not really like to go upstream and fight for something and they're right and Maybe this might be a reason and if I see the numbers you showed between Debian and Ubuntu It is two or five percent. This is the same Mac the order of magnitude But Mozilla is kind of ten times it because people Mozilla is used on Windows and it's ever where it is not really upstream anymore. It is Something which is mainstream and and it's made fit more this is feeling of harmony and not in contrast to some something else And it's just a theory. I don't know it, but maybe that's an idea I don't know how to solve this problem So you mean that one of the factors could be that yes the women are more attracted to more mainstream less I don't know. Yeah, which is not not bad. I will not If you'll permit me I have actually three comments, which I will try to get through quickly First of all, I think the way that you phrase that question is actually a little bit unfair because you ask do you know women who? Are not involved in Debian and why not? Well, I think everybody in this room probably knows both men and women who are not involved in Debian Absolutely, and are we putting too much expectation on the women in our lives regarding this point? Also, I will avoid the obvious discussion of certain parties that I could speak about who are not involved in Debian development currently I will leave that to them since they're on stage The second point is And this goes to what Mike had to say about asking the question about why the focus on men versus women I've found interestingly there seems to be a very there's a cultural So like German cultures Austria Germany their approach to equality you know Gender equality is it seems to be a solved issue for them And so they perceive any kind of affirmative action kind of ideas like Debian women They tend to view it very negatively is my experience in talking with people from those cultures And so there is there is kind of a if you're trying to actually get More women involved in Debian you need to be sensitive to cultural differences in that regard because like in the United States We view affirmative action as something we view this as an ongoing problem But in Germany they look at that and say well if you have to have this system You're doing it wrong in the first place, and they may be right I don't I don't know but it is it's like there's different perspectives on gender equality in that regard Which does play into this and I guess the third thing I and I would actually turn this back over to you Now is I would I would like to ask you if you are familiar with the concept of an imposter syndrome And if you can speak about about that and what role you think that plays I Think it's a very real syndrome. I Mean whenever you move into that's might might not be widespread knowledge But whenever you move into especially women only lists like no Linux chicks sisters and stuff You you you get to know that the that the syndrome is quite a spread I'm sorry, I realize we're having this conversation and many of the people in the audience may not realize Yeah, I'm afraid to when I say imposter syndrome. So should I should I explain that or would you like to it's okay? okay, so imposter syndrome is this idea that women as outsiders to the community Will often feel That they are not good enough and that they are there some way less qualified than their male peers in the field Despite having Equal or superior skills they will they will have the internal their their their own impression of their own skills Is that they are not as good and as a result? They will have a tendency to You know not step up in the same way that a man might in the same situation And if this is not specific to men versus women is this the idea of imposter syndrome shows up in other other scenarios But the but but eventually Something some event happens and they have this light bulb that goes on and this has been the case for lots of women in Technology and a lot of women have talked about this over the past few years that oh, I actually am good enough I've been doing this all the time. I'm just as good as them and I just thought I wasn't good enough So that's that's the idea of imposter syndrome, and I don't know what the right strategies are for dealing with that, but I think it's you're totally right And I think it's more my my personal feelings that it's more widespread than than most people think and I mean most of the women around me me included Have some times or somehow or even most of the time that Imposter syndrome. So yeah, I mean it's so that's that's a fact How to cope with it, I don't know I mean it's It's hard to it's hard to do because I my opinion because it's so I mean so so bigger than Debian. I mean it's so Involved in our in our cultural and social environment from scratch that Okay, I actually do have idea how you can tackle this problem. That's basically the same idea brought up in the NM Debbie and both Give people clear guidelines. Tell them. Okay, if you have a subset of these and these and these skills then We can talk about you being qualified enough. Just give them data on How to be what what does qualified mean because as a woman if you walk around this conference you will meet Yeah, roughly basic two types of people the one type. I'm not sure which one is worse There's one type who will overly encourage you who will tell you Yeah, yeah, you did some work and you feel no it is not enough And if you look at the data what you should have been doing it is really not enough So over encouraging is not helping and you have these people who are really picky Which is not helping either but maybe some people with reasonable ideas what you should What skills you should have and what you should have done how involved you should be in the community should get together and Gather some data and make a list for people who are not really sure if they're good enough to look at and just say Okay, this I can do this attack. I can do this. I cannot do maybe this would be helpful Okay Do you guys want to respond to that or should I just okay? Hi, so I'm really glad you guys are running this session. I guess I had two remarks so far First is when you show all these women who are in the who are who are doing their first uploads. That's great Is somebody making sure that they get around to applying to nm? And if not if you do that then you will give those women a social advantage over their men peers Which is what would be perfect? So you should do that and secondly In a way this dilutes the topic, but I hope that it's useful contextual information So when I think about diversity issues, I try to think about not just gender diversity But other kinds of diversity and so along those lines I think about Indian people in the IT sector and I consider if you look around this room Maybe all the people who are of Indian or South Asian descent. Can you raise your hands? Right So you can actually do the same graphs that you did at the beginning for non-white people in Debian they represent n% of the Proprietary and even maybe generally software contribution world, but only n divided by 12 or whatever in Debian and To me that suggests that the problems in Debian are broader than gender diversity problems and that's sort of why years ago I gave a talk called Debian for shy people, but just kind of like try to unify these issues So just one thought Yeah, I think I Think this imposter syndrome Steve had said is is true also for men So there is no I think we all suffering from it and just some people are more able to ignore it and some not so much and The only thing I think we should Invite just everybody as you said above and I think in my team They are also showing up from time to time some women and I really really hope that and we are inviting them and I'm really happy with about this, but You can't drag somebody in free software he needs to come voluntarily and I Just think we should keep on the good work to invite newcomers be the woman or men And really really hope that there are more women amongst it We we have also developed tools. I will report today about mentoring and so And I hope we can invite more women, but I don't see what what I could do differently to Up to before and we go what did to talk to him? Okay, hi I Want to answer to what Francesca said and I agree with what she said totally and I think on that respect we have Two issues one is a problem about self-assessment we thought would not give easy ways for people to self-assess and Figure out if they you know become self-confident with their work in that been one tends to feel like oh my god I don't know enough. There's people discussing things. I do not understand There's always people discussing things. You do not understand in Debian. So that's perfectly, okay And the other thing it's about an overblown perception of the project's expectations, which is somewhat related, but not quite Since every time you actually do something for that being you get criticism from someone or the other It looks like the project has very high expectations Whereas what you need to learn is to not care about criticism because it's the backtracking system problem you make a software get bug reports and that many people are used to that in our environment and The instinct is to try and find ways to improve it and it's a positive instinct But we tend to forget to find ways to thank you and to say well that actually is useful. It made my life better and We are not that used to that and that drives very much up the perceived expectation of Debian, which is a problem because It's hard to get involved when you feel that people That you can never fulfill people's expectations And that curves creativity. It's not just an inclusion problem. It's it. I think we lose contributions based on that as Well after said that and I would like to ask if we are in a general question time Or if we should let you go on with the talk Because I may have other things to say but I was keeping them for a couple of flights more, but I mean I Find this interesting enough to keep it running Hi so I've heard a few different comments here that all have one or There's an idea I have that could possibly Slightly help a bunch of these different things. I Some people pointed out that women and other other less represented groups might feel Shy or have an imposter syndrome or not realize the ways to contribute other than packaging or not realize even what Debian does So we may want to have on our home page a rotating people in Debian or this You know rotating the spotlight on people in Debian and make sure that it includes You know clear. I mean sure it can include some men and some packaging maintainers, but it should include You know clear evidence of the breadth of people and tasks in Debian including ones, you know that would be welcoming to people from the backgrounds we're discussing and You know, maybe their picture name if they're willing or first name or whatever they're okay with a summary of what they do and a link to say join him or join her and That would go to the new how you can get how you can start to help page It's just thought to help encourage them to volunteer and be welcoming Well, these two questions and we'll go to the next slide because otherwise Do you want to keep on doing? No, no, no, no, there were two people Want to say something? Yeah, I can tell you a short funny story about the end of 2011. I wanted to I I saw this is the best place to To get more involved or there's something more about packaging. So I was asking around Why did you make maybe a workshop packaging for beginners? So I was told from many people He's a conference for developer. You are the only one doesn't know it So it will be not interesting for nobody but I was insisting on mailing list and on Vicky and then first signed up maybe three or five people and Then after say, okay, maybe some people just know you have to use Vicky So I insist more from my mailing list and talk you to people and then on the end Thank you for gently the one workshop was was Took place and then on Vicky was maybe 12 people sign up and in the talk shown up more than 50 people And many people especially local people from Bosnia, Serbia. They were very thankful and they wanted to be that would be Video of it because they wanted to really get involved and learn about it. So my conclusion is But now I feel I see there's something change because now you have the workshops without my Suggestion again here. This is very good and you are talking about this. It's also I think also is very good So my suggestion you have you should make more Tutorial more more mentoring and be more open and welcoming Of course, there's everything documented and everything said yet everything documented But I think not everyone is able to spend a one week of time and reading all documentation is easier To be taken by friend and saying go maybe you can start this and then you wait to run documentation and then you go to the next step I Think yeah, if you go this way, you will have more women and more new newbies I think you're happy to be welcoming for all new people. I Met also a lot of shy males. So thank you Okay, so If you'll forgive me this will take a little bit of time to set up So I've commented previously about how there are cultural differences between some countries where where you know gender equality is Considered a solved problem in other countries where it's not So having said that I'm now going to explain why the Germans are actually wrong about this They may be right for Germany and Austria, but They are wrong with respect to other cultures and the reason that they're wrong is that there is a difference If the people in the group in question perceive there to be a difference So how women feel about things and whether they feel that they're outside versus inside if they feel that Debian is dominated by men then it is the case that it's harder for women to get in and then and I read an article several years ago that Basically laid out the mathematics of racism and why racism is in fact a natural state of affairs And it was a very uncomfortable article for a lot of liberals to read But the mathematics is actually pretty sound and it goes into the history of the Rwanda genocide and it goes into the race riots in in Watts in California and about how Naturally over time if people feel that there's a difference between one group and another They will naturally gravitate and isolate themselves and about the the idea that white flight Which is this phenomenon of inner cities in the United States being abandoned to to the black American community and having The whites moved to the suburbs that this kind of stratification of social groups and the separation of one group from the other Is a natural outcome whenever people do not feel as if they're all part of the same group whenever those differences are felt There's a natural separation. So if we believe that Having more women involved in Debian is valuable. It is something that requires a conscious effort to overcome this kind of natural separating out of of different social groups because people do feel That they are not part of a group or part of a group in some cases based on gender and that is a cultural reality that I think we all need to acknowledge and If this is something you so under us you made the comment that you don't know what you could do differently If you do think that we should have a more equal gender based gender ratio in Debbie And if you think this is something that should be fixed It is something that requires an active effort and this is basically the fundamental basis of Affirmative action in the United States and other systems and while you may find that for for your local community That's not how people feel when you look at the wider world And when you look at some of the countries where where Debian developers come from it is an issue and it does require a conscious effort on our part to overcome that I was thinking about what you are saying and it's like we are trying to find a solution and Women are not all the same. So I Think trying to find one unique solution is very difficult. I think having Debian women as a group is It's good because you know, you are welcome only to have the name But we have to have in mind that we cannot treat women as a well That we have Our behavior is the same or something like this because we are few women here And I think we are not the same at all. So it's my opinion The thing is We need to start assuming that people know things both men and women, of course But I I'm the first to admit that when I see a woman here. I kind of ask myself why she's here. I Don't like it with myself, but I do it. I don't ask her of course, but I ask myself Is that if she here with someone or is she here because she is a DD or whatever? So the thing that we can do about this is of course try to just okay I will for this time and From now on just assume that she's awesome that she's like the most super hacker around here So I think that would solve a lot of problems On that note before we continue I was actually asked if I'm here because Because dub comp is going to be in Portland next year. I was I was asked that this year No, I've been here several times and I've been in the community many times I've made many community members mad at me many I promise you I am as good at blaming people as you guys are So Yeah, on that note. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up because I was trying very hard not to But since you did I can't So the point is it's well, we already talked about some of these but I wanted to to point well even if it's Quite late because we're already talk, you know, so what's been doing? Well, that might help to get us more women Well in first place, we all we already know that women are capable and interested and We already we've already Got into make Debbie and more work coming to new people even when it's still not where we would want it to be It's still very more welcoming. There's the diversity statement, which is a great great accomplishment and the great wording There's we have the anti harassment male abuse which we all hope it would be absolutely unneeded but it's there It's a quick note about that to the anti-harassment list even though it does say anti harassment It is open for anybody who is experiencing some sort of very uncomfortable Situation that that they need help resolving. It's not just meant for what we would normally label as harassment Just wanted that out there Yeah, we have we have had for a long time the Devian community guidelines Rico and And we know that the new maintenance process is continuously being improved And we all we already have more initiatives here right now that are encouraging for more people from every every Everywhere every type of people to to join the Vian that's For example, it's been discussed the Debian welcoming team There's also going there has been some ongoing controversial stuff about the code of conduct and and different stuff and That we still know what we do it We still know some some things though and we still know that From what we've been talking about to other women and well what we feel ourselves and the new maintenance process can be intimidating the Making the the step for example the mentoring process that has already been mentioned here it's quite intimidating too in some aspects because it It assumes it's a mentoring process and every mentoring process. Usually it's thought as a salon at least a medium term commitment and That scares people so maybe the welcoming team might be a good approach for for this first stage what I mean is that and Most of the women gets men too, but most of the women at least I know and Find it scary to just join Debian and not knowing anyone and writing a mailing list or joining a group where they don't know anyone and Personal approach seems to be working better That's probably the whole the whole point of Mentorship program and the welcoming program stuff. So it's So it's a good thing that we go through like that lines that we are able to to provide some some initial contact in face Someone you can ask how does it work? someone who's friendly and And then Regarding different proposers or different things that Different things that we could do well We made we might need And Some ways to to get people more easily involved one of the biggest of the biggest step for joining most of the Free software projects, but particularly well most of the free software breaks But in Debian in general is you don't know where to start. You don't have a clear path for entering The it was mentioned that maybe lack of tutorials lack of mentoring lack of stuff And We might need to to make some more active outreach and maybe making more visibility More visible what it was mentioned at the beginning that there are many ways to contribute things. Maybe the thinking the thanking people Proposal for Rico's might help and well well and also This year was the first year that Debian participated in the Nome OPW project or the outreach program for women trying to draw women into technology more I I really want to thank Zach wherever he went for his work on that it We didn't end up giving out an internship for this But we did have four women actually show interest and want to be involved in Three of them were also Google similar of code So we managed to bring in one person just interested in the OPW project and that I think was a success right there At least for our first very short attempt So we have like a couple of minutes in case someone wants to say something Yeah, I had a quick comment is always it's often related to how we explain Debian to people we meet and ask and are interested And especially to what people who do not have like a technical background people who are not geeks that applies to you a lot of women that I met and It's that actually Debian is not a technical project or is the whole project, but it will ultimately Debian is a social project. It's about freedom and it's about how we Control the machines and not have the machines controlling us and this is something that is actually appealing to more people than if I just say Yeah, I had good And this is something that I like everyone to emphasize this more and that might help I think I I see two Reason to have a Debian women project one is inclusion and one is reaction to situations Those situations that happen because Well, there is a minority and some people are not made comfortable in in something and I So I think this These two roles are not Fulfilled as good as they would be because there is currently one single point for everything so with regards to inclusion I Think that is a situation where as We say not only women need inclusion that's new developers. There's maybe race, maybe I don't know and Reaching out to bring people in need not be specific to women I mean, it doesn't mean that we don't need to bring in women, but that's an effort. That's useful for lots more The other thing which is dealing with issues that happen because women are minority can probably benefit well When things happen on the street that makes someone uncomfortable It's useful to be able to look at somebody Familiar and say I did you see what I've seen Was it just me and we I don't think we have a place in Debian where that can happen Debian women definitely cannot happen You cannot forward a private email to Debian women and ask people for comments that publicly archived in Google The person that sent you that email may be on Debian women So how would you feel about having a women only mailing list? I would my personal feeling is that I would be for that I think that helps and whenever I personally have been in a position in which When the one would you describe? I wasn't able to rely on the Debian women's mailing list and I had I had to go to Linux chicks or sometimes many want to women but Debian women didn't work for that. So maybe I think it would be a good proposal right so We only yeah, we're we're out of time and I have so I have like 10 seconds to describe this because that's out of time to me Basically, what can we do? Find out why those women around you not not all women. That's that's silly, but The the women who are clearly using Debian the women who are interested in improving Debian the women who are actually Interested or would be interested in this community find out why they're not getting involved Listen to them. Their concerns are not silly. Don't tell them. They're silly Validate their concerns. They're valid because they're that's what's keeping them from being involved and Point them to Debian women because we can help them from there And by the way when I say we it's not just us It's the entire Debian community if you want to be involved in Debian women. I Don't care who you are. Please come be involved in Debian women. We want you to Remind to those remind them that there are other paths to being involved in Debian other than being a programmer Other than being an IT specialist other than being a network administrator You can do other contributions to Debian that will improve Debian and If you're going somewhere and you're taking your merchandise throw in some Debian women stickers Just get the logo out there get get people talking about Debian women more and join us again It just please come join us. Give us your ideas come to us. We're all very well, okay? They're nice people They're willing to listen. I might listen. I might be nice. We'll see But just join us we're we'll welcome everybody and Thank you to everybody for their hard work for helping us put together this presentation