 Good morning everybody. How are we today? Welcome to day two of Genetic Genealogy Ireland. We had a fabulous day yesterday. Now we're going to have a fabulous day today. We've had the biggest crowds ever. It's so nice to see so many people coming from overseas to join the conference. There's lots of chatting going on, lots of social intercourse, drinks, food. It's all very good. And today we have a wonderful array of speakers and array of topics. And we also have a panel discussion halfway through the day. So there's plenty to keep you occupied for the duration of this rather damp Saturday. I'd like to thank the organizers of the International Society of Genetic Genealogy. We also have family tree DNA who are our sponsors outside at this stand. So if you do want to do any DNA testing, do go and ask the volunteers on the stand which DNA test is best for you. But to kick off this morning, it gives me great pleasure to introduce Donna Rutherford. Now Donna works in the technology industry as a global business operations manager and is currently working mostly in cloud technology space. She is professionally an accountant but worked mostly in IT management during her career. And Donna runs the DNA Facebook group DNA Health for Genealogy. And from UK. And today Donna is going to take us through all the DNA testing for beginners. So please give a warm welcome to Donna Rutherford. I have a very funny accent. I'm actually a New Zealander. I live in London, I've lived in London for a number of years, but I originally come from New Zealand. So that's where my accent comes from. So first thing, question to you guys. How many of you have already done a DNA test? Wow. You know, people were saying yesterday, we asked this question two or three years ago and only a very small number of the audience would put up their hand. It's really interesting this year just about all of the audience puts up their hand. Hopefully after my presentation, I hope that you might think about getting some value out of that investment you've made in your DNA test. So looking at both of your extended genealogy research using that test that you've done. For those of you who haven't done a test, I hope you go and buy yourself a test before you leave the show today. Good show prices and I think you'll really get the benefit for your genealogy. But a couple of things before you do that, there is a couple of warnings. You may find surprises in your DNA results. A lot of people do. Some of those surprises are good surprises, interesting surprises. There can also be some bad surprises. Some people find that their father isn't their father, for example. They might find you've got cousins. They expect them to match that they don't. If you don't want to find that out about your family, then we suggest that you don't test. The other thing is DNA testing is highly addictive. We've been talking this week about setting up DNA anonymous. Most of us go on a test with many of our families, our friends. Some of my friends, since they come and visit me, they knock on my door. I ask them to spit in the tube where I scrape their cheek. I run out of family, so that's why I'm starting to order all my friends now. One disclaimer, I am not a scientist, as Morris mentioned. I am a proficient and accountant. I work in IT. I'm not a scientist and I'm not going to talk to you about science. Also, I'm going to start off with a slightly scientific slide. That's because I think it's really useful for you to know a little bit about the science behind DNA. You don't need to know a lot about genetics to use your DNA test and work your DNA test. So don't be put off if you're not a genetic student. We have 23 pairs of chromosomes. All of us have them in our cells. We get one of them from our biological mother and the other one from our biological mother. 22 of those are called the autozones. That's why it's called an autosomal DNA test, because we're looking at the DNA of chromosome 1 to 22. We do have two other special chromosomes that some people call the six chromosomes. If you're a female, you have two X chromosomes. If you're a male, you have an X and a Y chromosome. The father decides the sex of the baby. If only someone had talked to him or he ate that right and might not be headed, some of his wives. But depending on what chromosome you get here comes from your biological father. If you have a Y chromosome, you are male. So the types of DNA tests. The first one is the autosomal DNA test. And pretty much after this slide, that's all I'm going to talk about. So this test is most useful for genealogy. It will test and your results will be from the last five or six generations of your family. So very much the genealogical timeframe. The other two tests that are offered are the Y DNA test. So that's the menomy, because only men hear by chromosomes, right? This type of DNA test, we sometimes call it D-pan's history. So it will track through your father's father's father's line. And look at the DNA that you've inherited from this entire paternal line. It is D-pan's history because it could go back tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years. Not necessarily now something to use for your genealogy to start with. And the autosomal DNA test is kind of fitting that spot. Most commonly we test that an FT DNA is two types of tests, STR markers and SNP packs. Metacondrial DNA comes down through the mother's mother's line. So it's kind of an internal test. Also we call it D-pan's history because it can go back hundreds of thousands of years. But there in my metacondrial DNA isn't just with women. Although mothers pass it on to their children, they pass it on to both their boy children and their girl children. So everybody has metacondrial DNA. It's not on the chromosome, it's in the nucleus of the cell. It's quite a different type of DNA. But we can use that to look at the maternal line. So how does an autosomal DNA test? I'm still a little bit silenced here so I apologize. I'm going to get to something a bit more interesting soon. That the DNA is basically your genetic code. And if you start thinking about it as code, it's the coding that makes you unique genetic code. And if your genetic code is like somebody else's genetic code, then you have a common ancestor. You're closely related. So what the test does, you come here, you send off your saliva to the thumb, or you're squishing in a tube or breaking your cheek. You send it off to the lab and they are now analysed parts of your DNA. Now we don't do a whole genome sequence with this test. We're only looking at very specific parts of your DNA that are useful for genealogy. Someone described it to me once. If you think of a skyscraper, we're looking at the DNA that might be in an office space, just one office in a skyscraper. That's all we're looking for at this test. But we know the areas of the DNA that are useful for genealogy. So each of the locations they test, you'll have this code. And the code is one of four letters, A, T, C or G. It's the name of a chemical. I'm not going to try and pronounce them. I said to you, I'm not a science. I'm pronouncing wrong for sure, in my accent. But it's useful to know that we're looking at these A, T, Cs and Gs, and depending on where they are on your chromosome your string of letters matches somebody else's string of letters. If you've ever opened up your DNA, which I don't even need to do it because you won't understand it's got to be good. It actually isn't. It's been tested. It will tell you the chromosome number, the position of the chromosome and what your code is. You have two columns of code because you have two of every chromosome. But here's something interesting that you need to know because we sometimes get a bit confused when trying to work out which of our chromosomes come from our mother, which comes from our father and how to split our matches up into maternal and paternal. The test cannot tell you that. So if I look down column one, this isn't all the DNA code I have from my father. This one could be my father, this one could be from my mother, this one could be from my mother, this one could be from my father. The test can't tell you which side your matches come from and that's why we go on often to test other people in our family to help us work it out. So if you have long segments of code in common with someone, then they are closely related to you. The more of the code you have in common, the more of the closer that relationship is. There are some rules. We don't look at very tiny segments because we all have the same type of segments. It's about the storm outside. It's not as much warmer out here. So there are some rules around that. We don't look at very tiny bits of code that are in common and we look at the amount of sheer DNA. I will mention it later, but the way we measure DNA is in a very complicated calculation that creates a number of centimorphins. You'll see it sometimes written as CM. And centimorphins is the measurement we use to work out how much code we have in common with someone. So now I want to introduce you to my grandparents. So from the left is Jack, Jack Rutherford, Dorothy Croker, Stanley Hancock and Annie Florence String. Jack is my Rutherford paternal line. He's Scottish Irish. Dorothy is a cockney. She was born in London in the U.C. and lived in the U.C. for a long time. My grandfather Stanley, who unfortunately died a long time before I was born and even met him. He's a bit of everything in the U.C. He's from all over the place. And my lovely Nana, Annie, she's a dream and most of her family were from Yorkshire. Now I wanted to show you how DNA is inherited because this is important when you're trying to look at your matches to understand why you match someone closer than you think or why maybe your sister's got different matches than you have. This is my dad, who's also sadly passed away a few years ago now. Everybody inherits 50% of the appearance DNA. So you get half the appearance DNA. But it's randomized. So they've got two number one chromosomes. They are joined together. They're randomized. You get a random 50% of the chromosome, one that they had from their parent. So if you have a look here, my dad got half of my grandmother's DNA and half of my grandfather's DNA and mum got the same. Now I've not asked my mother if I can use her photo. So if any of you in New Zealand have happened to meet my mother, don't tell her that you've already seen her photo. And this is mum and dad on their wedding day. Now Annie and Stan also go to half their DNA to another. Now this is my sister. I'm not asking my sister if I can use her baby photo. This is me when I was a baby. Now we've both inherited 50% of mum and dad's DNA. But you can see here that when dad's messed up his DNA he's got given me half of it. I've ended up with a small bit of Dorothy and quite a large bit of Jack. My sister on the other hand has a Dorothy's DNA and a smaller amount of Jack and the same thing on my mum's side. So once my sister and I are full siblings and we share the right amount of DNA we have quite different DNA because of the way we've inherited from our parents. So it's not right to say that we get 25% of our DNA from our grandparents. We get this random bit stuff amount. Moving on to what you get when you test the first thing everyone gets excited about is their ethnicity. Where do they come from? This is my ethnicity result from family tree DNA and I'm mostly British arms and West Europe. A lot of people say to me well we've tested at other sites and uploaded our DNA somewhere else and I looked different. I sent in a different ethnicity. Which site is correct? Which of these ethnicities am I really? I always say to them just pick the one you like. Unfortunately the science isn't quite accurate enough for us to really deep dive into our ethnicity. It will get better in time but at the moment we do see different results in different sites and this person who sends me lots of different things is all me. This is all my tests all the different places I'm uploading my DNA. My ancestry test you can see I'm mostly British and Irish and that's mostly what I expect with my paper trail. It fits very nicely with my paper trail. You can see over here I was only about 2% finished here but when I put my DNA on DNA land I'm something like about 10% finished with them. Down here I seem to be French and Spanish. Over here I seem to have 10% of my DNA coming from Tuscany and here I'm a little bit more British, Irish, West European. So you can see that it might not help you with your genealogy and really you've done your paperwork and most of you have probably done your paperwork and this should really confirm where you think you've come from but please don't get me wrong that's really interesting to look at but we want to move on to the real power of DNA and that's the cousin matches we're fishing and that's where we can make real value of these tests that we've, you know, our DNA that we've given up that we've invested in. So we get a couple of things from the cousin matches. First of all we get a long list of cousins. Most of us will have hundreds if not thousands of cousins come up and a match list. It seems to have a close to the top so if you've tested a parent or a child or siblings and then aunts and uncles they're going to show you near the top of your list and then it will work your way down to maybe smaller matches 56 cousin at the bottom of your list. Now just to show you how many people are now testing when I did my very first test with Ancestry UK back in very, very 2015 I had 32 fourth cousins and closer. As of this morning because I look at Brigade I'm still at the same as I had last week I've got 154 fourth cousins and closer. So you can see that you can see so many more matches and your match lists have just grown over time and this is the beauty of the DNA test as an investment because it's continuously changing for you. You're getting new matches every day you never know when you're going to get one match that might solve that little puzzle you've got in your tree. We'll also give you a measurement as I mentioned it before it's mentioned in setting organs so you can quite often see when you get your results that will have a prediction of where the matches that might be predicted are an uncle or aunt or a first or second cousin those are really just buckets category names that you can put in based on the amount of cms, the amount of DNA you share. So here's an example here's my first or second cousin I need to go away and figure that out and 121 cms so you'll often see that written alongside a number of segments as well so you might see you share 420 cms over 5 segments and it just sends 5 different places on your chromosomes that you match someone so like the big block on chromosome 1 and there's some little blocks on other chromosomes. So how does this come together with genealogy? Well if you think this is me here I'm a child of the 60s and if I do a DNA test I'm looking at 5 to 6 generations that this is useful for my genealogy and if you look at the spray box here this is the sort of method my tree that I might have sold some puzzles for using DNA or confirmed that I've got the right people in the right boxes. I've got a couple of interesting things on one side here grandparents were first cousins that's what they do in Yorkshire but these guys married so I actually have four less grandparents up here most people have 64 four times better grandparents I actually only have 60 because these two people are the same people but I've got a couple of mysteries here my great grandmother was a legitimate all her birth certificate says a legitimate she went to the grave saying she never knew who her father was well I've actually sold that puzzle now she couldn't sold it I wish I could have sold it before she died but we have now found out that actually her stepfather was her real father and this came to light and my son was getting a whole lot of matches to his stepfather's family well how can I match them with DNA he was only his stepfather and as we put the pieces of the puzzle together we've realised his stepfather was indeed her real father and how sad that she never knew but some other problems up here this man's a real mystery Thomas Robertson from Scotland we've never known which Thomas Robertson he was Robertson one of the most popular names in the area he said he was from in Scotland I'm now actually pretty much sold this puzzle as well because I suddenly had a whole lot of Robertson families matching me and I'm like there's no Thomas Robertson there's no Thomas Robertson so I started to dig into the paper work found some very old census documents where there indeed was an older son called Thomas Robertson and I'm now finding a lot of other matches who have also got the same family in their tree what I'm trying to do now is disprove that Thomas Robertson isn't the match on that tree I'm looking through all the other branches and say perhaps I'm you know it's just coincidence so they've got a Thomas Robertson to disprove my theory as a way of proving it so I'm now working on all those matches and I think after all this time I've finally got who my Thomas Robertson is I now have to convince the hundreds of people who have copied the wrong person into their family tree but that's a job for another day but what I can do here I talked about going back five or six generations if I test my parents that would take me back another step again so you can see the pink outline of my mother's test and so that will get me to matches that come from another generation back and that will help me keep going back further I mentioned before my dad had sadly passed away he had five brothers I've tested four of them they all live out in New Zealand but I've managed to get kits to them and I've tested four of his brothers so I've been able to get back further on my dad's line as well because I had those four kits sitting there instead of my dad and I'm very thankful that they've been interested enough to be involved and to give me their saliva so that's how you can start using DNA to solve these little family mysteries and this is my Scottish Irish line complete mystery this is a lady called Sarah Goldie we have known her who her parents are I can't find her anywhere she just has Ireland as her place of birth on the census and I'm looking to try and find I haven't done a lot of work on her line but I'm looking to try and find some matches that might help me work out who she actually is and then on my father's paternal line I have done wide testing on my uncle's Swidy, you know and I do know my brother who was originally from Scotland my paper trail goes cold in Northern Ireland in the late 1700s I may never be able to bridge that gap but I am at least now trying to figure out why my family were in Ireland but even though I knew they were Scottish and that's a really interesting piece of work I'm doing now of course they come over from the Ulster Plantation and that makes sense and finally they moved back to Scotland and that wasn't me was that you Morris? as I said before we've got this genetic code that we compare and the more genetic code we have in common which is counting and sending morpins means how close is that match to you now on the Isob Wiki you'll find this chart and this is a handy-dandy chart to give you an idea of what the relationship might be so up here if you're sharing 500 centi morpins with someone it's a parent-child relationship sharing around 2500 centi morpins it's a full sibling and we go down the list I had to work out what double first cousins were it wasn't a relationship I'd ever needed before but it's basically a pair of brothers marrying a pair of sisters and you may quite find that in trees where you come from small areas and that's what happened and very similar with my first cousins and just to just to explain anyone on my first cousin branch they're matching to me it looks a little bit closer because I have additional DNA because of that pedigree collapse and they've been to marriage and I've worked down it's about one generation closer so anyone on that line that I match to I usually know it's one generation back rather than the category we get put in because of course I've got more DNA in common so we work down through the list and as we go down you'll see that the number of relationships that it might be gets bigger and bigger and bigger so the centi morpins can't tell you exactly what the relationship is it can just point you to kind of a bucket that it could be one of these relationships a guy called Blaine Bettinger you may have heard of quite a well-known genetic genealogist in the States he sourced hollow information from all of us all of us genetic genealogists that have confirmed matches and we've been able to he's been able to create a chart with confirmed relationships and the amount of centi morpins we share because there are instances where we're slightly over or under that predicted relationship amount and sometimes that gets a bit tricky for people I'm not sharing the exact amount this is a really nice guide to help you see what actually I am that is my relation I'm just on the low side of sharing because you can use this range a guy called Johnny Cleo has just done something really cool in the last few weeks and has created what he's called a DNA Painter and if you go to a website called DNAPainter.com he's sort of made this interactive you can type in how much you see him this year with someone and it will highlight which of these relationships it might be so instead of doing all that manually on spreadsheets you can just go to his site type it in and it will give you a prediction of where this relationship might sit this is on the so all the charts are on this page here all just showing the DNA statistics it's one nice page it's got that first chart at the top the two charts I showed before and then this chart at the bottom someone got that down what can I do with all these matches we've talked about getting these matches and some of the puzzles that I've been solving so we can find new biological family and I haven't really talked about it that adoptees and families are really jumping into DNA now because they realise and they can use other people's research to work out who their biological family are they of course don't have their own tree but with their matches they can start looking at their matches and researching their trees to try to find out where their relation their actual biological family sit so it's been a huge tool for adoptees and families of course you can contact your new found cousins most of the sites have a way for you to contact them usually by email or a messaging system on the site and you never know which of your cousins may have that family they may have a family Bible in his drawer somewhere at home that you've never seen and it may have some of your family in it and it may in fact have that one piece of the puzzle that you've been looking for if I find a cousin who knows exactly who my Thomas Robertson is I'm going to be very excited you can confirm your own traditional paper trail so that's a really good part of DNA some people say oh it's just confirmed what I already know but isn't that good you've got another backup another confirmation that you're on the right track of your paper trail and what you're seeing families that have been independently researching and had that same family some comfort you've been on the right route you have got your right family in your family tree and of course you can write down these genealogical brick walls and especially illegitimacy as I said my great-grandmother with no clue what kind of paper was ever going to tell us who her father was but we start to have DNA matches to her stepfather's family it's quite obvious he was her father DNA testing doesn't replace traditional genealogy not at all you don't go and do a DNA test and some of you don't have to do any genealogical research you have to almost do more genealogy research now so it complements everything you've done and it sits nicely alongside all the genealogy work you've been doing for years how am I going to time so matches this is what it looks like this is a family tree DNA site your matches as I said are listed in order usually highest match so this is my mum my sister my sister and then I have a whole lot of uncles I've tested five uncles under here and again as I said we talked before parent child matches about 3,570m and then I'm matching my mum and my son 3,300m so I know she's my mum and I know my son is my son and then a bit further down my list this is my second cousin once removed I didn't know yet she lives in Australia but when I look on the page there's a cross here and I can see she's listed in her ancestral surnames and one of those is Croker my lovely grandmother that's an East Ender with Cockney Dorothy that you met before that's Dorothy's family she was a Croker so I can immediately start to call this lady talk to her and work out where in the Croker line there's little icons in here that will help you to do different things with your mat or work your mat my stick's not big enough so first of all it will show paternal maternal that is if you've tested a parent or if you've put someone on your tree you've connected up their DNA and you've been able to show the system which side that is if you then look at the other matches and mark them as paternal paternal so maternal is kind of this pink red colour and paternal is blue because I had my mum tested it in here it's marked them all out for me so I can see which matches come from my mum's side then you've got an email address so you can click that button and it will immediately tell you the email address and set up the email so you can email that cousin and start to work with them so once I use that email address to do some Google searches and see if I can figure out who the person is a little bit of insight before I message them and I start to learn who that person is and quite often I'll find they don't have a family tree here by grouping their email address and they find their website that has their family tree on it and then further along there's a place where you can write in notes for your matches so you can manage them all from this page and then highlight them if they actually have a family tree on the site now the other thing is will I match with all my cousins well no I won't actually and sometimes people get worried they're like my fourth cousin's tested or I'm not matching to her has the postman been involved they start to get a bit worried but down to second cousins so far we've not found anybody that their second cousin doesn't match them if a second cousin has tested at the same site and doesn't match you there is a mystery to be solved so at the moment we believe that all second cousins should match the DNA with you when we get further down it starts to drop off so about 10% of your third cousins won't share DNA with you and if you think back to my grandparents where you met them on that slide you can see that as the DNA comes down the family it gets what they call diluted and it changes and some of those grandparents DNA will drop out of the amount that gets passed down to you so when we get down to fourth cousins we're only going to we could match maybe only about 50% of our fourth cousins and then when we get to fifth cousins we're only going to match about 10% of our fifth cousins that they test so for me the important part of using your DNA test it's about identifying and verifying these matches because that's what helps you solve these puzzles confirm your family tree find your biological family now you can identify them on the site often they'll have a profile name or their own name or an email address so you can start to identify where they are you can open up the profile check out anything they've got attached that will give you some clues about them we must remember though this is really really important everyone who takes a DNA test has the right to privacy so ultimately someone taking if you really don't want to be identified you probably shouldn't take a DNA test but ultimately you shouldn't stalk your matches if they don't want to communicate to you don't bombard them with a whole lot of emails and tell them that this is the right to your own privacy they have not signed up to communicate with you and work with you they may not be genealogists they may not be interested but in saying that there's a lot of things you can do on your own you can start looking at these profiles Google your email address do they have a family tree on another site and one of the big things that's becoming really easy now is because we're getting more and more people in the databases look at who is in common with this person at FTDNA we call this in common with ICW and you can find out who else matches that DNA matches well and that will give you some good clues and you may find you've already solved who the other matches that they're in common with so you know this person is sitting on the same branch we may find one of the shared matches has a family tree so you can start to pull this together and work out and identify who that matches and because we're getting more and more people in the database we're getting more and more shared matches with other people and the road to success this is what I've found has been my what has really helped me I first spend time researching identifying and verifying your matches and if this does take time I know that we're genealogists we know it takes time to research and DNA matching is no different it takes some time I haven't talked anything about advanced matching today so I've not talked about chromosome browsers and I've not talked about triangulation or third party tools go on and learn about those when you're comfortable when you want to learn more there's a lot more out there to help you with your matching one thing too sermenance can be less important than locations so quite you know if you're matched with somebody and you share an ancestor those ancestors have had to be at the same place at the same time to make a baby so sometimes looking at the locations of where your matches ancestors come from will lead you to which side of the family you're looking for especially if they come from a small village that's where my family come from sometimes locations especially with women who you sometimes only see in documentation married name so you haven't got a surname to go on anyway looking at where people come from can often be a lot more of a clue than the surname you cannot go to other sites are you in all the databases if you're looking for biological family we always recommend you're in all the databases look at your shared matches they're really valuable clue test more relatives test your oldest relatives now it really is worth doing that are you going to find out a lot more about their branch you're going to go back that one generation with them as well but you're preserving and investing their DNA for the future and I think just quickly some of my success stories and I've talked about these so I've been able to confirm what was actually my great grandmother's father who's a legitimate as you found out my great-great-great-grandfather grandmother from Lincolnshire his name was Elizabeth Smith I've been here all my time trying to sort out which Elizabeth Smith she was found a DNA match to a Diana Smith and I was like some of the I presume the other person had their true wrong when I started to investigate and find all the documents and the census I realised there were two goods Elizabeth and Diana both baptised on the same day and all the documents I found were exactly the same age and interestingly this great-great-grandmother married and went out to New Zealand and ended up she actually had twins herself though it was really cool it was really interesting some of my settlers went to Newfound some of my ancestors went to Newfoundland and I found the male found a fourth cousin Alaska which was really cool and so I'm in Texas all over the world so I've got lots more mysteries to find and finally because I think I'm getting to the end where can you get more help so the first one is the Isob Wiki and I've already showed you some charts of that and it's up there you can spend hours looking through that site it's brilliant this is my Facebook group so I'm an admin in this group with another guy and we help everybody who comes into this group with questions, we get all sorts of questions and we try and answer them all personally YouTube videos in fact the first thing that started me learning about DNA it was one of Morris's videos on YouTube but we will be putting videos up on like genetic genealogy island and the courage to watch videos you can start and stop them right if you don't understand something go back and watch it again write it down in a notebook or keep watching videos I think are a brilliant learning tool but don't forget about we have tested as well so the test companies all have their own help they have webinars, they have videos they have blogs, they have all sorts of links on their side to help and guide you as well and I think Morris it seems thank you thank you what a whirlwind tour great, great presentation now how many people see my microphone is probably going to go in the can I'm going to try speaking like this so hopefully I don't have to start to make it heard maybe that's going to be a better plan how many people have done what is all the DNA testing? right okay so speaking to the converters any questions for Donna? we have a question over here that's up with 5 cousins probably hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of her most don't know anything it is really difficult when you start to get to 5th cousins and as I said not all of your 5th cousins are going to match you anyway so once you start to get that to level the amount of information that gets them all for some of the DNA tests is going to drop off if you can at least find one then start to look at the shared matches then you can start to build up the other people that are matching the one that you have found it's just research I talked a lot of time about 4th cousins and closer because typically that's where I sweep my research because the other thing is if you can test someone in that one generation above you if it's possible whether it be a parent or sibling of a parent or somebody else might help you to lead you to your or even if you've got a cousin who comes up that line and they still have someone who's available for testing could try and find someone it's just plowing through trees moving trees sorry about the interference on the loudspeaker it's actually coming through from the other section and as far as I can tell from the paper so I'm the third cousin of three of his family and is there anyone working on how to disentangle this stuff where you've got a lot of cousin marriages the worst situation people have is if they're in something like Ashkenazi do where their entire genealogy is endogamous everybody is into it and it's really difficult for them every single match looks like every single match they get it's their second cousin and it could be a sixth and seventh cousin there's no easy way to do that at the moment no one's been able to disentangle that the person who can work out how to deal with endogamous matches is I think going to be a very efficient person for me I've been able to work out with what I've found so far that anyone on my first cousin branch look about a generation closer to me if I see second or third cousins come in on that line I know they're probably looking at all the cousins so I've just tried to work out if it's just one line I think I think for what I've found it's about one generation closer than they really are we have one final question here from Dick Doherty how do you explain how siblings can have different DNA relationships so as you went back and you've got the one ancestry of the stepfather and you said in terms of he is the father how do you determine what you was to use when he wasn't one of his siblings it was one of his siblings because I had built out his tree as well at one point only a little bit but when I started to find the matches and started building me a tree back to make mine I then went one step behind him to his father and that's where those matches were going up to and it was about building the trees and when I realised that these matches sat on the tree when I realised that those matches sat on the tree and I looked at their trees to make sure I didn't match them in any other way and there was a whole lot of people who had tested four or five cousins and they all matched back to Samuel Pippur's father's line so most of the stepfathers brothers descendants what about tree building? Fabulous, well I think that's all that we have time for in terms of questions and answers I'll have to fix the technical problems but hopefully it hasn't spoiled your enjoyment of Donna Rotherberg's fabulous presentation Thank you