 Good morning, and welcome to the 7th meeting of 2023 of the Economy and Fair Work Committee. Our first item of business is the decision to take item 3, which will be discussion of evidence heard this morning, and all future discussions of evidence heard as part of the inquiry in private. Our members are content to take this item in private and all future meetings on the committee's inquiry that involve discussions of evidence in private. Our next item of business is the third evidence session of our inquiry into a just transition for the Grangemouth area. In today's session, we will focus on partnership working needed to facilitate a just transition. I now welcome Benny, director of place services with Folkirk Council, who is joined by Adam Gillies, community councillor at the Grangemouth Community Council, and Darren Midlale, associate director of place with the Scottish Futures Trust. I welcome to the committee this morning, and as always, if members and witnesses can keep their questions and answers as concise as possible, that would be helpful. First of all, I might come to Malcolm. It's a question that I'll let all three panellists address, but we're looking at a just transition for the Grangemouth area, but there is still some debate around what a just transition means. Do you know what's the working interpretation that has been used for the Grangemouth area, and do you think that people have an understanding of what is trying to be achieved? Everyone can hear me. For me, in the context of Grangemouth, my view is that the town is on the edge of this huge, successful industrial complex, but in recent decades it maybe hasn't significantly benefited from that, and that's especially true in the pockets of deprivation that exists within the area. For example, Grangemouth has five areas within Scotland that are 10 per cent most deprived in Scotland. More people are dying younger in Grangemouth than in Falkirk and Scotland as a whole, and premature deaths from cancer and coronary heart disease are also higher. There's a tension there with a place that's doing incredibly successfully commercial things, and then a community that maybe isn't benefiting. For me, millions of pounds are about to be invested in transitioning the industrial complex towards a net zero future. It's important that Grangemouth and its community get a fair share of those benefits. In my mind, a just transition would be a point in the future where a green industrial complex offers high-quality jobs to the workforce that has successfully reskilled from the existing industry that's there, and where corresponding investment in the local area means that Grangemouth community has improved opportunities for employment and a better quality of life. If I was being honest right now, I don't know that if I walked down Grangemouth town centre and said to people, what does just transition mean, and what does it mean to you that that would be something that everyone resonated with. I think that we collectively need to agree exactly what that just transition is. I've just given you my interpretation, but I'm not suggesting that mine is the one. I think that we need to agree exactly what it is. I think that there's a big job to try and articulate that to the local community, and Adam will be much better than myself to talk about that, about why that just transition is relevant to them. I know that consultation and engagement that was done with the community in the last three to four years posed that question to them. The feedback that we got was that the just transition wasn't seemingly overly relevant to them. Maybe that's seen as a large industrial complex that's going to go from being a petrochemical to a hydrogen. What's in it for me? I don't want it to be negative. What we find with Grangemouth in my view is that there's so many exciting opportunities and potential. We just need to transition that into a delivery so that people in the street, people in the community see something happen and that we're making a big difference to their lives. I'll come to you next. We received the paper yesterday. You talked about a number of projects and things that are happening in Grangemouth, particularly the greener Grangemouth, which I think more people might want to be asked questions about. Is that the key thing? In terms of delivering a just transition for Grangemouth, is that where you're largely playing a role? Do you think that the public have an understanding of the project that you're working on or what it means? Yes, absolutely. I suppose to take that in two ways about what just transition is and then just some of the work. On the just transition piece itself, I think that there's two ways of looking at it at a community level. The first way is maybe looking at the international labour organisation definition of just transition around decent work. They've broken that into four things. Decent work is about right opportunities, protection from harm, protection of rights and dialogue. In a Grangemouth context, with the totality of infrastructure, investment and industry, those four bits seem really relevant around making more opportunity for the community, making sure that there's more protection from the environmental context, making sure that there's more rights around environmental justice and particularly around dialogue. With Adam and other colleagues, we're in a consultation with the committee last week around Grangemouth saying that there is an amount of money from the growth deal, a capital investment and a revenue investment. That's good but it's small. With any money, it always has its limitations. With that money, the question is what are we going to do with it? What are we going to do with 10 million capital and 2 million revenue in an area of transition? The answer is to spend it wisely on what's needed but also to use it to convene, co-ordinate and collect all of the other things that are happening around the area. Grangemouth is one small thing that will have a target of money but its purpose is to use that as a way of convening conversations with others so that the just transition in Grangemouth can be meaningful around three specific things. One is that the transition helps the community itself to build on its strengths and its capability. Two, that the place of Grangemouth itself is able to build structure and hope for the future and fundamentally, I think, three, it's around the relationships and partnerships so it's not just about spending the money we have now, it's about looking at how we use the totality of energy, capability, community and resources moving forward. In our work is about the Grangemouth work, yes, the Grangemouth work is about a spend programme, yes, but partly the intent of that is to use it as an opportunity to convene. Adam, welcome to the committee. Do you want to say a bit about what you think a just transition means for Grangemouth and what success would look like? However, the broadcast will work with the mic so I don't have to worry about the microphone. Thank you for having us here today. A just transition for Grangemouth. Historically, Grangemouth has seen probably an unjust transition moving from a town that was one of the most prosperous in Europe to, if you look outside the industry now, you're looking at a town that looks like the industry has left, that's probably the best way in explaining that. We have had a lot of allstones as a community and even we have engaged since back, I don't know if the committees had a chance to see the consultation report that was published in 2019, 200-page document, which led to which we see as a watered down version of the community action plan. I was having a look at the community action plan this morning and it still disappoints me, to be honest. A just transition would see Grangemouth prosper from the industry that is underlining the Scottish economy. We understand that sharing the benefits of Grangemouth is of national importance, but it feels as a community that we have to accept the negatives of the industry. There are ideas, plans, a look at free port and things like that, where it's skilling up. We can't just have a local community that gets skilled up, it just doesn't work. We need something in between, we need to regenerate our town centre, but that's in not just spending money creating, it's about how our town operates for a net zero future. We attempted to diversify the community action plan that was more towards net zero, which at the centre was bringing rail to Grangemouth. Rail in Grangemouth would do a number of things and it would allow legislation that's already been passed in this Parliament to make massive changes to Grangemouth. Sorry, I might be a bit nervous, the first time I've been in the building like this. What we looked at was a plan that train station in Grangemouth, as I say, this was done starting 2018. A lot has changed in five years. The community action plan must change and it must change dramatically to achieve what we all want to see. A train station in Grangemouth would allow 20,000 new jobs to be sustainable. We can't replace chimneys that are causing this problem in the first place and replace them with 20,000 cars. Looking back at what's being invested in TIF, TIF funding has went to upgrade motorways. That doesn't even scream, we're looking at net zero here. We need better public transport and we're not just talking about buses, we're talking about a mix. What that can do is that those 20,000 jobs where by far the majority will not come to Grangemouth residents, we can offer public transport where people are actually filtered into our town centre, which regenerates our town centre, which creates jobs that do not need a lot of skill and up, which people could actually enjoy right now, which would make a difference in our community. Underlining that, we would like to have a parking levy, which is a legislation that was introduced in this Parliament, which at the moment I believe is only coming to Edinburgh and Glasgow. That doesn't have to be forkered wide, this can be Grangemouth community realising what has been offered to the Scottish economy with the 20,000 jobs. The net zero economy, if we see 20,000 cars coming into our town, that would see an unjust transition. To mitigate those things, realising the benefits and delivering what we are actually proposing, which would see free public transport around the area of Grangemouth, underlined by the parking levy, we would see the benefit of people not using cars, but as a community it would also fund free public transport in our area. To see a circular economy where we all benefit, that's how we would see a just transition to net zero. OK, that's great, thank you. I'm going to bring Michelle in, but if I just want to come back to Malcom. Malcom, we were looking a bit at the Future Industries Board, or the Grangemouth Future Industry Board. Are you the representative from the you involved in the board? Yeah, that's correct. So do you want to just give a view on what the board operates, whether it's effective in terms of bringing together the public partners and what you see as the priorities of the members of the board? OK, so Falkirk Council is a key player on the G-Fib Grangemouth Future Industries Board. I guess the group is collectively working to align public sector activity in the Grangemouth area, so it's all the different public sector agencies that typically are doing their own thing in a silo approach being brought into one space and us trying to align where the shared priorities are and where we can each support each other. It's chaired by the Scottish Government and Scottish Enterprise and in essence bring together the key decision makers to promote investment growth, innovation and competitiveness of the site. I think one of the key aspects from our perspective as a council is the Grangemouth flood protection scheme, which I'm not sure how much the committee is familiar with, but I've been thinking about today in advance and effectively sea levels are rising and Grangemouth is a place, the town and the complex that would suffer from that rising sea level and it's absolutely essential that this huge piece of infrastructure is developed to protect Grangemouth residents and the complex and Scotland's future economy through the protection scheme. For us as a council, we're looking for this scheme to be progressed through government because its current estimate is about £600 million, so the funding model for normal flood schemes would be that a council provides 20 per cent of the capital investment and the Scottish Government provides 80 per cent, but on a model of £600 million there's no way as a council we can do that. One of our priorities through the G-Fib is to work with government partners and agencies to see that raised in profile, because for me there is no just transition for Grangemouth unless we ensure the long-term sustainability of the area. In terms of G-Fib, I've been in post for a year so I can only talk about the time that I've been involved. I think that it's a novel thing, it's not something that has happened before. I think it's great that the Scottish Government is highlighting its priority for the Grangemouth area by setting up and establishing the board, committing manpower to it. We have spent probably a fair amount of time working out the governance arrangements because it's a new entity. I think that we're now at that tipping point where we need to start seeing the collectiveness of that group deliver something that wouldn't have happened if the group didn't exist. It would be unfair to say, has it been a success yet, because it takes a while for the group to be established for the Government to take control, but over the next year we need to see some sort of outcomes from it that say, you know what, if G-Fib didn't exist then that wouldn't have happened. I know we'll probably come on to it in terms of what we'd like to see changed to support a just transition. I think maybe we could look at some sort of dedicated resource to G-Fib because at the moment it's individuals who have their normal jobs doing their normal jobs as well as G-Fib. I'm not undermining that at all. Everyone's putting in a big amount of commitment, but I think some sort of dedicated resource to be there and maybe some sort of financial commitment. I guess the way the model works at the moment is we're all sat there with our own funding piles and we're wondering can we collectively use our funding piles to do something different, but if we're maybe objective you might say we're all struggling with our funding piles and competing priorities so there's not that much great potential in us being able to sort of take some money from our pot and put it in collectively. I think some sort of seed funding investment into G-Fib to give it some sort of financial muscle would maybe accelerate it, but I want to be positive about the board. Like I say, it's a really welcome thing and you know there aren't other places in Scotland where we have a board where it's collective public sector organisations all coming together. There's good strong leadership, there's passion and interest, the guys have been up to Falkirk and Grangemouth a couple of times. We're coming up, I think there's a visit happening in the next couple of months to see the flood protection scheme sites and where we're talking about, so I'm positive but I think we need to, again it's back to my point about delivery, it's time to see something happen. Okay, that's helpful, thank you. Michelle Thomson to be followed by Colin Smyth. Good morning everybody, thank you for coming along. I know my colleagues who want to come in with a lot of questions as well but I kind of wanted to start in the centre and I was so struck adam by your submission which I know from my own kind of personal representation absolutely strikes a chord in the heart of the community and I particularly point out the issue around housing because how can you attract people, there's insufficient housing, too many flats and so on. I suppose what also struck me was the disconnect between the submission from Scottish Futures Trust, a lot of good stuff going on and a lot of good stuff going on as well in the council but from a local community point of view what would you like to see happen that would ensure you feel you genuinely are at the heart of a community-centred just transition that can fan out with all the other good work going on, what would you like to see happen? What's a easier belief, I think actions speak louder. You mentioned housing there and I'll go back to a few weeks ago where we have Kingsea Avenue which is an area that you'll be aware of. Flatted accommodation is an issue. If you live in a, if you have a job that's well-paying you don't want to live in a flat in Kingsea Avenue. As I say actions speak louder so when you look at when when you meet people for the council you'll hear different things when you see actions from different parts of the council they don't match what's in the community action plan they don't match what the people want to see and I've had meetings with the head of council and I've asked them why, why, why, why is it things are different in different areas of the Valker Council area that they're engaged with and from the words of the community what the community said they've just put a sticky plaster or something to make it look nice so the actions are not following what the community needs and we can see that in different ways also from the planning system that's supposed to have protections for arrangement if I go back to NPF 3 when it mentions the community Grangemouth who lives, has long lived and with industry should be protected and enhanced and yet just two weeks ago we see another HMO being given planning permission for Grangemouth, another one on the way, another one a week the year before. This isn't envisioning the what community action plan scene and we're seeing this from different departments of the council for example education our children want to do advanced hires in Grangemouth high school they're putting a taxi and they're moved away to another town to do the hires where do these actions say what how do these actions actually prove that everybody is on board every part of the community every party industry is saying the same thing sorry I didn't get your second part they're only focused on the house no you've probably given me enough to go on but I want to bring in our other two witnesses as well to get your reflections on of the initiatives many of which have already been put on the record and we talked about the the flood prevention which I agree is very good around its comms but from your perception what would you like to see happening differently from your relative agencies that starts to square off this disconnect between the community and the perceptions so elegantly articulated and the activity that's going on just now both short term and longer term? Yeah so I think a great point and I think Adam so we had a consultation with the community just last week and rightly said that the community action plan is a key vision for the community but frustration on two levels one that it's watered down and secondly accountability to division so if we're saying we're going in this way it's how everyone works around it so I guess from from from our point of view in in Scottish Futures Trust it's interesting just to look at what's going on within the community so the Friendshaven Charity at Adam is in the Zetland park project the Charlotte and Dass heritage trail all of these initiatives are community led and passionately led and they tend to work around very specific local areas so it tends to be that a bunch of people organise around that particular area and a different bunch of people organise around a different part of the town so for me what would be really good is that we're able to get more coordination between the good stuff happening second within the community secondly that us as agencies and departments and portfolios are also able to coordinate so that the totality of spend kind of works in a really interesting way and the third one I suppose is to bridge that small scale stuff passionate and powerful and the big scale stuff so to touch on the Grangemouth Future Industries Board for a second I think it's it's important not to underestimate how difficult it is to get a conversation between disparate groups around the shared future so to Malcolm's point it actually takes a lot of time to get people to work but as people are doing that they tend to focus on what they know so we'll focus on the industry we'll focus on the complex but there's a whole load of people just adjacent to that 17 000 so I think one of the other bits that would be really good is to see more relationship between the two parts between the big and the small and I know that the just transition team in Scottish Government are kind of trying to progress to just transition plan and one of the questions that they asked us in SFT was well what are the links then what are the links between the big stuff and the small stuff between life that Adam's laying out and the bits so we've had a go at thinking about that and we think there's seven so the first one is that there is a piece of work that SIPA are progressing called a regulatory hub which is trying to look at aligned regulatory environment around health and safety executive around SIPA itself or in nature scot so how does all that come together so that it facilitates the transition to future industries but also that it protects and supports the community so slightly invisible stuff at one level what really important on the now the next and the later so the regulatory hub bit is really important so that an explicit intent of that is absolutely to support all of the work that Adam has said and the explicit intent bit is the important thing not maybe not hopefully not supposedly explicitly second is that as Adam has rightly said and the community action plan has highlighted it's not just about reskilling it's about skills generally and passion generally which the community has so a key touch point is around employability and enterprise so the enterprise around women families the existing businesses that are there supply chains community well-being thirdly around the act of travel bit so the rail is an ambition of the community absolutely but meanwhile while the business case for that goes through while the stag and all of that goes through that could take a number of years meanwhile we could be looking at improving the walking environment the cycling environment meanwhile we could be looking at the electric vehicle capacity meanwhile we could be looking at the integration of active travel to fork of grahamstone and down to the industrial cluster benefiting the community fourthly around the greenport and also the transition to future industries logistic and freight will be a key issue massive issue it's an issue now it's going to be an issue later so there's huge opportunities so how do we think about that in a coordinated way so some of the hassle is taken away from the community and some of the efficiencies we've entered at Luster there's incredible skill in Grangemouth incredible skill incredible skill at community level to mobilise people in situations which would seem hopeless incredible skill in industry to transition to huge in different futures incredible skill so what if we shared the skills what if we were able to take some of the skills from the industry and start to apply that for how we might look at an energy and heat network not necessarily pay for it but look at what are the things we can do what are the skills we can apply what are the potentials we can apply and how can we test that out fourth is sorry fifth the next one is the around the NPF implementation so NPF is here it's right here as Adam has right said so the question isn't about whether we need it anymore the question is what we're going to do with it and that is a question for the industrial cluster it's a question for the flood scheme and it's a question for the community so a shared interest between the parts is the implementation of policy not the construction of it and the final one is around the flood defence scheme which I think is really interesting and some of the financial bits that Malcolm's laid out also invite some really difficult choices so how do you protect and who do you protect and how does it all go but within those choices there's massive opportunities there's massive opportunities on data infrastructure to make sure the flooding works there's massive opportunities on nature-based systems to make sure it kind of supports and those opportunities could flow into the community to enhance exactly the points that Adam's talked about so as opposed to your point Michelle part of it is around us collectively trying to work out the different touch points at the different scales Adam and his community are right at the heart of it and they know what's going on in the community the Grangemouth Futures Industries Board are trying to kind of get that to work and then there's a bridge in between that we need to be really targeted on and explicit on so that the benefits flow to the community but also that transition happens up front and I think that that is a job of government on a co-ordination bit it is a job of agencies on the implementation side and and fundamentally it's a job of all of us to be accountable to listen and work with the communities so a very very fulsome answer and I want to hear from Malcolm yourself as well and feel free to bring in the G-Fib as well if you want to comment about that. Thanks there's a bit of me that sort of feels wrong answering the question because Adam's you know the community if it's if it's my opinion and I feel like what we're hearing from the community is can we see something change can something change because otherwise it feels like we're just hearing words and the two levers that I feel like I we as a council can pull is town centre regeneration and housing the two are quite closely linked and I think we need to recognise that the Grangemouth town centres and I'm talking about the shopping area and that sort of you know really small inner ring type approach that that's failing and needs to be reborn if you like so I want to get a master plan done for the Grangemouth sort of town centre area that kind of identifies where we can remove some empty units remove maybe sort of aged housing and replace it with new modern housing that meets the requirements of the community and I think the you know what I've heard from the surveys that we've done with residents is that you know they want more family accommodation in the area that allows people to stay and not just transition through Grangemouth to somewhere else and have high turnover rates so create a kind of sustainable kind of neighbourhood and I think that's something that we could achieve and I know Dermott's you know leading some of that work with the 10 million greener Grangemouth activity that we've got and then I'll work with my colleagues in housing to see what we can do you know I've got information about some of the early housing projects but for me they aren't on a scale that would be significant enough to really you know allow me to say to Adam don't worry it'll be okay on that you know in a few years it's going to be looking different so that's that I just want to touch as well that as a council everyone will be familiar that we represent all sorts of communities within the Falkirk area and it's interesting because some communities feel that Grangemouth gets sort of more than they do you know and you know other communities in Falkirk would say well we're not getting a committee about us we're not getting an industrial complex so there's always attention there but you know I recognise the importance of Grangemouth as a complex both for the you know Falkirk wider area and the sort of Scotland PLC if you like and it is essential that the residents and communities do get some sort of benefit from that because you know we haven't touched on things like HGV drivers and the the impacts that those guys have on the community something's got to happen that makes people feel like they get something out of it so to come back to the point town centre regeneration and housing would be my two areas of focus but I would also seek to work much more closely with Adam to sort of make sure that those are the things he wants to see or his communities want to see so just last week question before I give over to the next person there's a perception which you've already alluded to in Grangemouth that they as a community bear the cost of the industry without getting the value of it and there's a perception held by some people that the council doesn't give sufficient focus that actually inadvertently its focus will go to things that protect industry and they would make an argument that even the flood defences are about protecting industry rather than necessarily having a community at the heart that's a perception that I've been aware of since I was elected to represent the area do you think that's changed and what active steps has the council taken as part of your activities around a just transition to address that if you because you're clearly aware of that perception yourself yeah so I think and forgive me I can't remember if it was the submission from the community council that went to the committee but you know if you read that that there is a narrative about how you know if we went 60 70 years ago to the Grangemouth then there was direct money going from Grangemouth into the local area and you only need to see the municipal investment along the you know kind of town centre area to see all these buildings that were created to see how the community would have benefited in those days whereas now in a kind of larger council environment that sort of direct return doesn't exist so it's not a perception you know anyone who must have lived there for 50 years will know the difference between what happens now and what used to happen and what I would say is if we pick up the flood protection scheme there's lots of investment as part of that scheme that isn't just at the seaport it's up the river you know into neighbourhood so I think the scheme will address all sorts of issues beyond just business but you know I think it's all about perception and whether people feel like that would be happening if business wasn't there you know and I get that point and I think in terms of how do we change it Grangemouth is very fortunate I can list some of them but you know we know that Ineos are going to spend a billion pounds on hydrogen transitioning you know we've got the growth deal that the green freeport announcement for me is really exciting you know we're talking about six billion pounds worth of investment coming in a lot of that coming to the Grangemouth area there's just no way that there isn't going to be some spillover although I accept that the fear is that some of the jobs or a lot of the jobs that are created are created for people who drive into Grangemouth rather than for the local community but one of the key work streams within the green freeport is a skills development piece about creating virtual reality simulation training and it's absolutely dedicated on deprived communities and seeking to support people in those communities to get that training so I feel really sort of excited but again it's a bit kind of jammed tomorrow isn't it you know if for Adam to sort of hear you don't worry you know the green freeport is coming you know it's about that thing we need to see it now the the tax increment finance scheme I accept again won't transform communities but the investment in infrastructure helps to make Grangemouth a sustainable place for business which means that the businesses don't leave Grangemouth which help to keep jobs as much as we can in the local area the protection scheme will hopefully give us a long-term future for the area the G-Fib again should tie in lots of public sector organisations to deliver some sort of change and so I think there are you know if I think I've got a draw with things in my draw that are going to make things different for Grangemouth I do believe that there are there but again it's about taking it stop being words and make something actually happen but I think we definitely can and you know like the growth deal I can go into more detail later in the committee but you know that there's a series of projects there that I think are really exciting and will make a difference okay thank you thank you thank you Colin Smith we followed by Graham Simpson thanks very much good morning to the panel can I follow up on the points you've made about the various initiatives that have taken place I've had a list here before I started the meeting and I've just added to the list of different initiatives so you've got the Green Freeport which you mentioned there Malcom you've got the local hydrogen action plan you've got the Falkirk growth deal they've got UK Government's living up agenda shared prosperity fund Scottish Government's national strategy of economic transformation you've just mentioned Malcolm you'd like to see a master plan for the Grangemouth area that the letter we got from SFT this morning talked about the greener Grangemouth initiative there's a lot of initiatives out there how can conflict between the various policy programmes and initiatives be properly managed to ensure that we've got a joined up working towards our goal it's a good question I probably would say that I would say that because I'm going to try and be positive but you know I think there is really good linkages between the two so if I take the growth deal and the Green Freeport so we're the obviously the accountable body for the growth deal but Falkirk Council is also the accountable body for the Green Freeport which means that we're the public sector body because obviously the Green Freeport is a partnership between Edinburgh Council, Fife Council and Falkirk Council and Falkirk Council is the accountable body that the one that receives the money and needs to divvy up the money and run the kind of governance of the two so we're kind of in a really you know good position to align the two schemes but if you look at the key priorities of the two programmes if you like they're really closely linked about business, innovation and also placemaking and improvement in learning and training so I feel confident about the alignment with things like that obviously the billion pound investment by Ineos into the you know transitioning of the complex that's not something that as a council will have much or any say over but it's a green transition which fits how do you manage that if there's a potential conflict to what I'm saying and what you're wanting to achieve as a local council I don't think there is a conflict because that investment is about investing in hydrogen and green energy and if I take examples within the growth deal two of the work streams are about identifying incubator hubs if you like for exciting new ways of using energy and exciting ways of carbonyl utilisation to sort of reduce carbon emissions so the two are actually you know working towards the same end the announcement by Ineos to go for that green transition was a really positive signal for Falkirk council you know because we've got aspirations to see carbon reduction happen across the Falkirk area and now the largest emitter in our area and one of the largest in Scotland is going to go on that same journey so I'm confident that there is good alignment I think I hear the point that you make in terms of there's all sorts of different programmes and how does one person stay on top of them or how does an organisation make sure you don't maybe lose priority of which one's the most important one to go on but I feel confident in my view that you know everything actually does join together but is there a need is there a need for I'm not going to suggest another committee or anything another group because you've got quite a lot already you've got you you would talk to a lot about the futures board but is there a need for more coordination if I'm being honest I can only say my own sense and I don't get that I probably should have said any also represented on the Falkirk growth deal board they're not on the industry future board for example it's just public sector is on that as a on gfib yeah for sure but I would say you know growth deals backed by 130 million pounds of investment and the green free port is going to have six billion pounds worth of investment so those are the areas where probably I'd be drawn to gfib for me is a vehicle by which we seek to make sure that if we talk about like the regulatory hub happening in Grangemouth that we're all aware of the regulatory hub we're all thinking how can we maximise the benefits of the regulatory hub that's the vehicle for gfib and as I said earlier because there isn't any additional financial investment in gfib I'd be more drawn to the importance of the growth deal and the importance of the green free port if I was ranking them in priorities in terms of what's going to change the lives of people in the Grangemouth area and you obviously touched on seven initiatives it was almost you looked as if you were trying to coordinate all this yeah and I think to raise a lot of coordinate you know on the growth deal board a lot of the representatives that sit on that from the public sector also sit on the Grangemouth future industry board literally the same people sit on the board you know so I think there's there's a lot of people moving around I would say that we don't need new boards and groups I think there's three things that can help the alignment that Malcolm said out one is around spending so on the growth deal with the green of Grangemouth I think there's an opportunity to get early spend to address some of the priorities that Malcolm that Adam has said out you know so around the 10 cent house and we can get things to happen now so we can start to deliver on that the second and then the submission that we've presented with the green of Grangemouth work we've been trying to kind of set out six principles that can work across all these various bits and pieces so whether you're the Grangemouth Futures Industries Board or whether you're the Greenport or whether you're the Tiff or whoever it might be in the area is to ask six questions before you do a thing before you consult so what role actually is there for the community how is it building the capacity of the community how is it enhancing the wellbeing of the community how does it transform the local economy how does it enhance the environment and particularly how does the investment in infrastructure deliver some of the inclusive growth things so one of the important bits around co-ordination is that there's a kind of a similar stickiness if you like so there's some similar things and the last bit is around measures actually so I think that if we collectively keep ourselves accountable you know to what we're trying to do in Grangemouth if all the various different initiatives measure themselves in a very similar way then there's a way of making sure that whatever you do it has to hit these bits so I would say the three things that are useful around the spending now are the aligned principles and the measures and I think that there are tools of co-ordination out there there's the NPF and its implementation there's a local development plan and its delivery focus and there's the growth deal and it's delivery focus at the strategic board, the local board and individual projects so I think all of the ingredients are there it's within all of those ingredients to make sure that we're hitting the ground in the community now that we're aligning up the ducks around that and then we're measuring ourselves and keeping each other accountable so I think all of that should be done within the forums and structures we have first and if it turns out that you know there are stresses and strains within that then by all means kind of move it on but I think that by doing it that way that's partly one of the ways where we can surface the conflicts there's different groups where we can start to surface it, test it out and then bring it forward and say look we need to talk in a different way about how we'd resolve those issues. I'm going to bring Adam in to give the viewpoint of a second about whether the community feel they're involved in using this, but I'll maybe get you to get your rebuttal in first term how do you involve the community because I detect from the delivery of the action plan there's a lot of frustration from the community that a lot of things are happening but it's not benefiting the community so how are you bringing the community into that? That is the fundamental note of this isn't it so the Green and Grangemouth project I think is unique in the deal in that it's entirely focused on the community so it's about putting community wellbeing into the heart of the just transition and what we haven't done is to present to the community of Grangemouth here's four or five things that we're going to spend the money on what we have done is to try and engage with the community on the back of the community action plan to ask three questions one is what should we spend, two is how should we work together which becomes important not just in the planning of it but also in the doing of it and three then how should we connect this with the wider bits so part of what we're trying to do in the Green and Grangemouth bit is to set up the idea of a mini programme so to speak a community focus programme that builds on the work that Adam has been talking about it builds on the work that Mark has been talking about and from that we identify a long list of possibilities a short list of possibilities and then we get into the targeting we kind of go and write so we're going to do this and then once we've done this we're going to try and wrap things around it and once we've wrapped things around it we're going to get people to kind of wrap around even more so the Green and Grangemouth at its heart is a community partnership project it's not about us sft telling the community what to do but it is about sft saying if this is what we want to do we can help to make that happen and Adam I mean Green and Grangemouth sounds like a great thing community and heavily involved in that what way do you think the community could be better involved in in some of this work well you mentioned a few committees here the non-industrial side Grangemouth isn't represented in these communities I think that's a loss for what they're trying to deliver for the reason is no disrespect this can tell you everything you want but when you discuss making changes only the people that live there I believe can understand how these changes affect now what I'm trying to say is if you were involved in these committees and you're having these discussions it's not about trying to stop development it's about mitigating development so that it's more appealing to the local people if you like the community launch report showed that there was a distrust between council industry non-industry and having these committees segregated from the community I don't believe helps so what would you so would you how would you how would you see that change do you think community council should be on more of these committees or do you think that there's a need for a structure that brings some of these different organisations we've got and initiatives got with the community how would you how would you bring that together how would you align the community with all these initiatives that are taking place as you're ready to yourself there's a lot of committees there and it's if you imagine we're a group of 10 people that will all have their own full-time jobs and things like that so it's hard to commit to that I believe that we should be given the option we've always believed that we should actually be in the room when decisions are being made for at least your opinion on how decisions are made and I think we should have a representation on anything that affects our community especially when we have what we call the permitted planning zone which is in the the port complex which will be expanded once we have a green port these decisions will be forced upon us we won't have a choice to we know that the planning system isn't perfect it's going to be weakened in getting into it that's going to be a disadvantage to the community so I think we should be represented wherever possible on these committees to have these discussions we have managed I'll no say it's all been one-sided we have managed through Falkirk Council we have managed to have meetings with well indirectly with the chief of board where we've actually seen what they have been discussing and things like that but it would be much better to be in the room to give a community perspective what they're discussing and how it affects the community because I don't believe industry has a full view if you like or the council and I think having a position on these committees would be would be important would be beneficial for everybody I think it's quite I used to be a community councillor before I was a local councillor before I was an MSP it's quite a big commitment for you guys though I mean I used to go to lots of organizations and you'll know there's loads up there is what is that is that asking too much of community council members or is there another way or do you think just actually that open invitation should be there for the community council to go to these different organizations? I agree with what you're saying we would discuss that we're probably the most consulted community in Scotland we like to have that theme it certainly feels like it we can't go to everything we have to we have to decide what's what's important we have no choice in that we don't have the resources to go to everything but the option should be there yes I believe so thank you Graham Simpson to be followed by Colin Beattie yeah thanks so I've covered a lot of ground already I'm just going to follow up with you Adam on the Colin Smith's line of questioning and I was just thinking you know community councils they come in all shapes and sizes and some are really effective some are not that effective and you know if you I think you've said you know if you were to be invited to every single organization which we've already had a long list of them that would really really really stretch you and surely I would have thought you know Colin myself of both being councillors surely it's the job of councillors to attend these things and feed back to you if if you can't get along would you agree with that well I believe councillors should should be there of course they should that's why they're elected even when it comes to that I would agree with that in principle but then I believe the details of such meetings should be shared openly and that isn't always the case yeah we we have some good councillors in Grangemouth and they do share some information with us but it's not always open if you like yeah I think that's a fair point Dermot I just want to you've mentioned the greener Grangemouth I'm still not really clear in my head what it what it actually is could you perhaps explain what greener Grangemouth is yeah absolutely so it's a subset of the Falkirk and Grangemouth growth deal it's a 10 million capital project and 2 million revenue so that the money is 10 million capital 2 million revenue the purpose of it is as I said to focus on community wellbeing and community partnership and within it we think there are three kinds of projects that the money could go towards first 10 centre projects so to pick up on Malcolm's point to render regeneration secondly within the community and the community action plan has highlighted that there are a number of areas of deprivation where life is not as good as it could be or should be and they include kersie bank bow houses and in the top of caron grange and within those areas we think that the somewhat of 10 million can try and make life a little easier but also make opportunities more accessible so there's an infrastructure of community facilities already there how can we look at that being more net zero how can we bring more digital infrastructure into it but how can we connect it in so some of the skills programmes that Malcolm's talked about from the greenport are accessible through kersie bank bow houses in caron grange not Falkirk not somewhere else so the youngsters in that area are able to get into it and get there the third bit is that on the revenue side that is entirely about net zero capacity building in the community so it's about investing in the community and building within it and I suppose around that there's a number of different possibilities so skills and training would be part of that but also around organizational capacity to build on the kind of questions that you've been laying out so if we are looking at a future which is more community led and if the community are you know some really great and some need help then we've got an opportunity to invest over 10 years in strengthening the capability to lead strengthening the sustainability bits on it so that we're not investing in something that has no chance of lasting for two year or five year what not it's more we're investing in the people we're investing in the stuff we're investing in the outcomes so if you bring all of that together it's a portfolio of projects try to make a difference on the ground okay and I guess we're right at the start of that journey are we we're right at the start of it projects have been no so that and that's an important bet is that I think that you know Adam and the community and Walter Engels also in the community have been through many consultations there is much stuff in many documents so it's not that hard to go and find it so our job is to go read it and then distill it then and send that the long list of potential things to all this stuff says seems to look like this and then working with the community then to to bring that down into a short list so the the the business case process of the deal moves in summertime where UK and Scottish government have an expectation to see some of that progressed so our job is to push the OBC the outline business case for the greener range so that there's coherence on it structure on it and that allows the the business case to be approved it was just to pick up on one bit just on the last one a question around councillors and representation and the capacity and we're also working in in SFT in in other parts of Scotland and so one of them is in Borderlands so it has a place programme so it's trying to look at at each town what's needed and what's interesting in that project is that they're building the idea of a community board or a town team which has representation across and recently we're in Hoik and I think there's about 83 different community groups in community including community councils and members so there's huge amounts but you can imagine one group might have four people or me whatever what was amazing in that particular community is somebody mapped all of it categorised all of it and then suggested how a representative board structure could work with representatives to talk to it so I thought it was an excellent way of understanding the dynamic of the community also about building accountability from the ground but having a board structure if you like that's the Grangemouth future community board of sorts that allows a strategic interaction you know on the community interests but also on the political interests and then on the whatever bit so I think that there is learning that we can rob to be honest from other places and invest in Grangemouth that would be yet another committee well I suppose the corollary of that is your point on time stretched so if it's representative then we're making sure that the voices of the community are represented and there's feedback back into the communities as opposed to making demands on community to be at every single meeting and not being able to attend it so some way of getting the collective voice to work you were saying earlier the people on the future industry board are the same people that are on the growth deal do we need a future industry board have any any comments on that I think we do I think we do because the the growth deal has a particular agenda and set of remits and then the future industries board has similar people but I suppose like your own committees in your own work it'll be the same person doing different things with different people for different reasons so on the future industries bit in itself I think that the work there is about convening people it's about shaping the trajectory and then it's about keeping people together whereas the deal bit is about lining up the ducks for spending and investing so kind of slightly different but I think the opportunity is that there are similar people who know the area who are able to move in and out of the groups the challenge I suppose is that those different people use that time efficiently and connect up all of the ducks in the different forums that they're in okay final question for me we're going to get another report you'll be pleased to know another consultation that will be the Government's Just Transition Plan which has been mentioned already what do you think I suppose my question is do you think there's a point to this is a point to having a Just Transition Plan I'll address this to you Malcolm because Dermot's had a good run there and what should what should be in it shouldn't just be in as Adam said just words it will need to actually set out some actions and projects and timescales you've already mentioned it you know there are lots of ideas out there but for me that plan should be that's what it should be it should be this is what we need this is this is this is how much all cost this is how we're going to get there is that how you would say it I think that I think it should exist because I think if it didn't we might not have these conversations and I think these conversations as you've heard from Adam are absolutely essential to make sure that we don't just get drawn to the significant industrial and economic benefits of of this area and there'll be other similar sites across Scotland that will need to go through the same journey and make sure that there is some benefit for the local community so I fully support it in terms of what that final plan strategy is going to include I'm not sure I need to you know but I need to see it I guess if the question was put to me what do I want to see for Grangemouth in terms of a just transition then it would be things like a financial commitment to the Grangemouth flood protection scheme and maybe some sort of financial or employee commitment to the G-Fib flexibility within government for some of the schemes and funding that we've been given such as the growth deal and tax increment finance to allow us to to flex and move with what's quite a changing sort of economic situation in terms of construction inflation and and just whether ideas are the right ideas if you want to change horse then there's a sort of level of bureaucracy that comes with that that to change projects and I think targeted investment and employability in training schemes linked to sort of green industry and personally some sort of dedicated funding for social housing in these communities because I think that is the barrier at the moment in terms of certainly unlocking significant investment in social housing in Grangemouth at the moment. Thank you very much Colin Beattie to be followed by Maggie Chapman. First I'd like to pick up on something in the Scottish Futures Trust which Malcolm has actually just mentioned which is TIF and I thought that was a real blast from the past I remember when it was extremely popular and flavour of the month and everybody seemed to be reaching for it then suddenly it was less popular and I don't know if it completely died out but you don't hear of it anymore. Dermot you've put it in your submission here about TIF do you want to make some comment on that as to how it fits in? Yeah so I guess what's interesting about Grangemouth is it's a jigsaw of different pieces from different times if you like so the TIF work was the tax increment finance was around trying to get financing to build infrastructure and that programme is still progressing. The development of the TIF work across Scotland has included things like the growth accelerator model which is supported some of the work here in Edinburgh or the green growth accelerator model which are trying to get finance to invest in new and different behaviours so the TIF model is still there there's still negotiations on going with Folker Council and Scottish Government and part of that is about looking at some of the strategic infrastructure that facilitates the transition to industry and then some of the infrastructure needs in the area so it's still there I guess that the issue then is looking at different mechanisms in that transition that's one tool in the box but there'll be other tools in the box to bring in finance and funding for infrastructure. To be honest I'm not sure why it kind of went out of fashion it just seemed to vanish from people's sight. Do you know why that happened? I don't think it vanished I mean I think there's a number of different factors so there's a range of of TIF projects across Scotland and a bit like the discussion we had about what you need the growth board and the just transition board. TIF in itself asks people to invest time to get the business case to work to get the partnerships to kind of work so it needs time all of these mechanisms needs time and I think over the the periods that local authorities and governments times pressured so I think that that's one of the issues around just kind of getting the time investment in it. I think the second bit that's kind of come forward around some of the models is then just looking at the intent of some of the models so the green growth accelerators is a good example where it's taking similar principles but then migrating that onto more of the greener outcomes so still there still progressing still very much part of the portfolio of the infrastructure here and there's still learning that's going on across the TIF projects about how it can be improved some of the issues and sticking points within it. Malcolm, do you have anything you want to add there? Yes. I've worked in local government for 13 years so I don't have as much experience maybe as even some of you on the panel but I feel like local authorities can be traditional beasts and that means that we're used to getting some capital money from government, we're used to using revenue to raise capital money and then TIF comes along and people go oh that's a bit different right so how does this work and also there's a risk attached to it because if you don't then generate the the rates revenue then you as a council are liable so as a as an officer you have to have a risk appetite to go down that route because effectively you are advising the council to spend a lot of money on something which you can't guarantee will deliver a return and that could have a financial link consequence on the council so I don't have a knowledge of why other councils wouldn't have done it but obviously as an officer now sitting trying to execute a TIF scheme when we enter the you know tax increment finance meeting it's a different space for us and we're sort of having different conversations with challenging business rate information we're projecting is that site going to actually become a hotel is that site actually going to generate the revenue and it makes people anxious it makes people think I want more kind of reassurance and if I was making a broad generalisation I would say that would be my interpretation of why you know TIF hasn't been grabbed out by others but that's not to say I don't think it has its merits and we are still looking to pursue the TIF sort of investment in Falkirk but again the lifespan of the TIF is a set amount of years that you do your contract with the council sorry with the Scottish Government and pace I think is something that needs to happen and because there hasn't maybe been as much pace since we signed the TIF you start losing some of the years that you had banked in to get that revenue back so now the funding model doesn't look as generous it now looks more marginal and therefore the risk of me presenting to council becomes more marginal and but it's still a viable scheme and it's still one that I think people are happy to consider if there isn't another you know alternative. That's interesting. Aram I don't know the extent to which you might have been involved in any of the TIF projects. Ironically before I was a community council Michelle your predecessor actually went into his office because as a member of the community it actually frustrated me because I've seen how other communities use TIF and actually highlights part of the problem we've had in the community because as Malcolm rightly says you need a stag report for a train station. TIF could have been used for that. We don't just have industry and community we also have retail in Grangemouth which has seen no support whatsoever and this plan that I was talking about that we tried to get implemented into the community action plan it's actually no different to what is happening in your neighbouring town of Falkirk where they're actually wanting to move the headquarters into the town centre to bring people into the town centre. Grangemouth is the exact same which said we would want to do it with industrial employees 20,000 and it's trying to use that which would then regenerate our town centre brings footfall through that then creates jobs that are more relevant to your community. So what you're saying is right we never had a lot to do with TIF, certainly no with the plan inside it I believe that that was we were not allowed to have any discussions in that but I believe it could have been used in different ways that they've been more inclusive to the community. Thank you that was just a kind of an aside I picked up on the submission but the key thing I wanted to ask you about was local businesses in the broad sense. The committee have heard that generally among employers uncertainty is affecting investment decisions in infrastructure and training. Business likes certainty, business likes to know what the plan is and what's coming down the road. What do you think of the major barriers against providing this certainty which businesses need in order to make those investments? My personal view would be a vision and a narrative like what is happening in Grangemouth, what is Grangemouth going to look like in five years time and if I think about my draw I don't have that in my draw at the moment that says by the way this is how it's going to look but as I sit here now I will get there I will mobilise our council's team to make sure that working with the community we come up with a new Grangemouth because I'm not going to leave the town centre like that that town centre needs a committed action plan. Adam references the new Falkirk town hall and how we're transitioning that to fix Falkirk's town centre. That was priority one in my entry on coming into the job. We're getting really close to being able to do that and Grangemouth will be very high up next on the list in terms of let's try and fix the town centre. That to me I feel you've heard from Adam a sense of lots of talk what's happening, the housing is not right, the town centre is not quite right, the public transport doesn't feel right but what's going to change that and I think it's about us saying right well I've gone away and I've suggested that we get £20 million of capital investment to do X, Y and Z and once the community are involved sorry once they've endorsed that then we move forward and I think we have talked quite a lot about community involvement on boards and I totally get the point that's being made in terms of it's not doing things to the community but I think at the same time some structures are in place that almost need to happen to generate ideas that then come back to the community without them being involved in meetings every month often which has detail in it that I don't know that would be accessible or allow the community to get what they want. What they want in my view is us to come and say we've heard what you said in your surveys we've designed a proposed model here it is does that look like the sort of thing that you're after and then the community can say well you know I don't think there's enough social housing there or I don't think that the transport network looks like it right okay we'll go away and refine it and come back and that's the sort of relationship that I would be looking to try and create but if that isn't the one that Adam and residents of Grangemouth want then I'm happy to talk about that as well. Clearly a vision has to be a collective one all the stakeholders involved but on whose desk is the responsibility for ultimately delivering that. I'd say it sits with myself as director of place for Falkirk council to come up with a place making solution for the Grangemouth area and you know we will like I said before words but we will do it you know we will come up with that vision and we will have a proposed funding well we'll have a model that says it will cost this to do it and then we'll work out how we go and get the money and maybe that'll be discussions with Scottish Government maybe it'll be trying to draw down some funding from the fourth green free port investment maybe it'll be somehow trying to use some of the growth deal money we will find a way at least that there's a proposition that says if you want to fix the town centre and make things better for the community this is what you would do and these are the costs that would be attached to that. Is it simply a lack of vision that's causing local businesses to be hesitant? Is that in itself an answer? A lack of vision? It's a difficult one to answer to be honest with it's I wouldn't say it's a lack of vision I would possibly say there's a there's definitely a divide between industry and community and it fuels communities I struggle to say community because I would try and look at community as in both sides if you want because we are one arrangement I'm not sure I struggle to answer that one I struggle to answer it. Okay Dermot? I think there are visions there are visions so kind of bringing that together would be a helpful bit but I think from your question around business in particular and that certainty bit I think there are three things that can and are helping business so one are early wins and so that's about deploying some of the growth deal money quickly and purposefully so that people can see that there's stuff happening so physical stuff happening I think the second one is demand signals so when Covid obviously hit the economy one of the bits of work that sft and others were involved in was around the construction leaders forum to reassure that sector that there are things happening there are things coming and there are things being planned and that generated what was called a construction pipeline which was a visibility of the portfolio of different projects going on and it it's a simple tool but actually really important because it shows people there's a lot of stuff now here are the entry points into that lot of stuff but more importantly what happens next so if I'm a business and I'm investing in that stuff now what's the confidence that there's going to be something after it and something after it and something after it and I think that's partly the then to do with the third part is around the additionality and the opportunities and that's where forums like the Grangemouth Futures Industries Board are so important to say if we are moving in this direction around carbon capture if we're moving in this direction around hydrogen if we're moving in this direction then here are what are some of the opportunities that look like so you can plan for that you can see the opportunities right now and you can get reassurance on the early winds I would say what's interesting in Grangemouth is that the industry and business structure is quite interesting because there's a lot of deep relationships in small and medium enterprises that have stayed around the area there's also some quite big regional and national entities kind of moving around the area so there's a lot of businesses that have stayed there for a long time and so that's quite interesting in that area who are always watching and talking and moving around so there's a good deep base I think with that good deep base to build a certainty early winds confidence signals and then access to those future opportunities and just one last question which I'll ask you to comment on what more could or should be done by either the Scottish Government or the UK Government more than maybe you'd like to with at the risk of repeating myself I think what I want to see is that financial commitment to the flood protection scheme which I appreciate is a huge infrastructure national piece of infrastructure that the Scottish Government needs to take appropriate time to identify and work through I think that potential for financial commitment to G-Fib flexibilities around the growth deal funding and TIF to help us to maximise those opportunities targeted investment and employability in training schemes so that they maximise the opportunities that are going to come from this green industry transition and I think some sort of dedicated funding for social housing for the Grangemouth area just to you know again if that money becomes available we can start putting some houses in place and then we can start improving the community and that would be one of those early winds so but in saying that I feel like those sound maybe a bit sort of low in terms of aspirations but I think those sorts of things to me would feel like we're getting something really significant out of it. Adam, do you think there's anything more the Scottish Government or UK Government should be doing? Yes, I'll put it jointly because I'll hold council government, Scotland national all this one using all represent communities that possible well love adjacent to one farms and it's just to touch on what Malcolm says other areas Falkirk may look at Grangemouth and think why Grangemouth getting that every community that hosts these one farms which size-wise is nothing compared to Grangemouth they all receive community funds I believe there should be a community fund for Grangemouth without directly asking for our plan of a parking levy creates that and what that fund would be that we would look to have that fund actually managed by the community so it empowers the community so when there's issues in our community as in we have a problem at the moment with separating HDVs with non-industrial traffic there's an argument at the moment between Falkirk council and the Scottish Government who's paying facilities facilities for HDV driver at the moment we're paying for them because we're having to host them the problem isn't being solved we're seeing an argument in the middle so one I would like to see a community fund for Grangemouth solely for Grangemouth and I would like to see better partnership between the Scottish and Falkirk council where we actually solve problems not create problems that the public are then having to host in Grangemouth and that is through funding I think a lot is already happening so there's a lot of good work a lot of powerful work but I suppose to your point calling around what more could be done so I think there's something around on the joint government bits on UK and Scottish government bit around the just transition for community there's an accountability piece so how we mobilised the totality of senior level leadership and the way that we structure a business case and finance as Malcolm said around this strategically important geography to UK and Scotland so accountability second one is conditionality it'd be really interesting to look at as we're moving across the landscape and the plethora of different funds small funds big funds you know and Adam and colleagues will be trying to get money and kind of bring it down and it has all sorts of different kind of conditions but this area is so strategically important to the just transition of Scotland to the lives of the community how can we organise some of those funds so that they are all gearing and moving in the same direction thirdly around co-ordination I know that Malcolm's led out the the commitment to the master plan but that commitment to the master plan and the responsibility that he's he's taken on it needs other agencies to kind of come around it government agencies non-government agencies so the help and support at UK Scottish government level to bring around it let's pile it in and help and then I suppose finally it's the capacity I think Adam rightly has highlighted that it's the most consulted community in Scotland you've got 10 people regularly doing more than the shift for the community so how do we invest more capacity at the community level so how can agencies invest partly that's about taking responsibility of not asking questions of the community that have been asked a million times before partly that is agencies trying to say listen why don't we join up on two or three things and partly it's about looking at how do we make the best use of the third sector resources that are right there the community resources that are right there and others but if if government as a whole so on a kind of co-ordination kind of it was looking more around the the accountability to just transition conditionality of joining up the funds co-ordination of the various different initiatives to help not to do and then also to kind of keep asking the question of how can we support the capacity then it would feel that it's not Adam only trying to solve this it's not Walter only trying to solve this that there's a team Scotland approach to it a team UK approach which helps the industrial transition it helps mark him with some of the difficult complexities of moving through stuff but probably more importantly it helps the young people in Grange Mouth high school or the young people in current Grange high school and the communities to know that there are things behind us outside those four things accountability conditionality co-ordination and capacity thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you all thank you for joining us this morning and for what you've said so far today it's been really really interesting I want to just tease out a couple of things that have have come come up already and maybe take them off in in slightly different directions I'm struck by the tension or disconnect that we've heard between the different visions different definitions that we have industry community or you know the different parts of of of Grange Mouth that we're talking about Malcolm from the perspective of the growth deal or g-fib the professionalised structures or institutions of just transition strategy and delivery if you like is there maybe too much focus on the process of transition being just rather than what we're talking about which is a transition to justice and does that actually thinking of it in a different way does that actually allow us to talk about some of the things that Adam has already raised that the gaps the failures that the negative impacts that the community has felt I guess if I start with the the full cut growth deal I think that's the it's the full cut growth deal it's not just for Grange Mouth and I don't I don't I'm so and the nature of the growth deal is can you put forward compelling business cases that allow an increased gva in in your area and and the nature of that then spills into the fact that typically what you're going to be doing is trying to think how can we create employment or investment and those things maybe aren't directly addressing some of the concerns that Adam is raising this morning so it's not that growth deal investment is wrong it's almost it's the growth deal investment will facilitate you know improved skills training through fourth fourth valley college that allow young people in the full cook area and Grange Mouth to capitalise on this transition to hydrogen etc and then they'll have brighter futures and if we bring incubator hubs for those technologies as well then we can you know protect full cooks position as a kind of leading player in the Scottish and UK area for these sort of green energy approaches the bit of the growth deal that really addresses or should address what Adam's raised and what Dermot's talked about is the 10 million pounds for greener Grange Mouth now I'm absolutely delighted that there's 10 million pounds dedicated to greener Grange Mouth but I've said to Dermot before and I don't you know 10 million pounds doesn't get you a lot these days you know so and we can't go around saying greener Grange Mouth's going to fix anything because you know I can barely build a road for 10 million pounds so there's got to be some sort of expectation management in terms of that and but that's not to say therefore our aspirations are sort of diminished in terms of what we need to do but I feel like that's the narrative around the growth deal and I think was the other one G-Fib. I mean I mentioned G-Fib but it's more that I suppose that broader picture and we focused so much on you know incubator hubs on the different elements of the industrial transition and I think we sometimes get we don't we lose the actual vision here which is what we're talking about a transition to justice for everybody whether you work in the energy sector whether you work in you know a corner shop on the high street it should be for everybody and I think that the institutions of justice transition I think miss that sometimes and the economic metrics you talk about are are really important we need those we need those we need to track those but it's the outcomes it's for the young people you know being able to do their hires where they live rather than being taxied somewhere else and we don't focus I don't think we get to there in our planning I agree and I think there's an element here that the funding available to local authorities typically comes with those strings attached and there isn't so much funding available for generic placemaking you know that you know because effectively it feels like what we're saying here today is do you know what we need a lot of money to invest in social housing to create a better neighbourhood and we need some improved investment in like an hgv truck park so that they can wait there before doing their deliveries and we need to kind of improve the town centre environment so that people feel proud of the area that they live in and and get a sense of satisfaction from that and the money from that typically probably needs to sit with the council but as we're all familiar with the council budgets are very stretched at the moment which means our ability to borrow off our own revenue budgets a challenge but I don't want to make that as an argument until I've got my list that says here's the five things we would definitely do here's the cost that they would make that the community have said we love those that's how we see if you do that that will make our lives loads better and that then I've gone round with a begging bowl and said how do we make this happen and until such time as people have said no you can't have it then you know for me the responsibility sits with me to because I'm not in that place I haven't you know I never want to sort of say it someone else's fault until we've created that vision make sure we've got the the plan in place and then said how do we afford it and all the things because although I've set a rather bleak vision of public sector funding if you come up with shovel ready projects money does sometimes just emerge that you can then get an opportunity from it's about making sure that you've got that draw full of the five things that we need to do and that they're all ready to go we just need the money in it but I don't have those five things and until I do I can't sit here and just one thing and maybe this relates to to some of that that question around vision but earlier in your open in your answer to the first question about the definition of just transition you said you know there needs to be a good discussion with that community engagement and then it's your job to articulate that definition what it means back to the community I struck me that that's kind of the wrong way round because if it's genuine engagement the community knows what it means you don't need to articulate it back to them and I'm just wondering whether there's actually we're not doing co-production of either the definition of just transition or the vision for for Grangemouth and and whether we need to rethink some of the focus of again how we do you know it's not that doing to communities it's actually facilitating communities to to to create their own vision that you then go and implement I totally accept the point you're making I think I think where I am I feel like just transition is a like an academic or kind of you know vision of what we're talking about here and that isn't words that I think the community would typically engage with and I think we've heard in shorthand effectively there's lots of things happening at that complex that affect us as a community we don't appear to be getting anything out of it what are we getting out of it because it's not fair that we have to put up with those things and so that I think that's what I meant in terms of the the just transition if we go around talking about just transition I don't think that the I don't think that's going to resonate that well with but if we work on that principle that we know that that means that happens therefore there needs to be some sort of benefit I think that was more the point by I took in here what you say I think the only other thing I would say is that I'm so aware that the amount of engagement that's been done with the community and and I think you can hear some of that sort of and and I don't so I don't want to do much more engaging I want to more come back with his his what we're going to do to help does that look right and and that's level engagement but I don't know if there was a workshop that we did with the public last week which the sense that I got was that it was a well received and a sort of positive step forward and I don't mean therefore everything's fixed I just mean that engagement is is still a positive engagement yeah and Adam was there was a positive engagement and as you would expect from Grangemouth it articulated the good stuff and the challenges I suppose for me there's an interesting flow around your question Maggie and for me the flow is around outcomes cash tools and plan so what we have is a whole pile of information if the NHS has gathered tons of information we've got lots from the community action plan behind the community action plan there's a load of evidence around performance on certain indicators at the moment so we've got a lot of things so one of the bits that we've tried to do in the greener Grangemouth is just to try and understand that stuff a bit and so yes we only have 10 million but we could choose not to understand the stuff and just kind of go here's the thing for 10 million yeah good look so so the first bit is just to try and understand the stuff and we felt that that was important so that if I'm in in in a in a Grangemouth library as I was last week I have half a clue of what's happened before and I'm paying people the respect of having at least looked at what's been said before so I think whether you're spending 10 million 100 billion or 1 billion you probably should read what's been said before and around that some of the patterns of the outcomes that we need to target on are there the opportunity of greener Grangemouth is it's a small amount of cash but the small amount of cash need to link to the outcomes of what's already been said so that those navigate what we would and wouldn't spend it on but it's a sort of unique position because often what happens is you have to create a master plan to decide what to do for which then you have to go hunting money we're in the unusual position of having a small bag of cash before the master plan which means if we drive it from an outcomes point of view and we direct that 10 million in a way that is purposeful and useful and then we surround that 10 million with a bit of co-ordination and a pipeline of all of the rest you have half a master plan what half a chance of getting done so I think what's interesting on the flow is that if at the heart of the outcomes is justice then the way that we spend the 10 million has to help justice but not solve it and that has to help you know attract and coordinate the rest of it which then builds on it which then starts to position the master plan that says this is what we need to do this is what's going to cost this is what who needs to do it and whatnot you know so you've got a much stronger confidence in a plan rather than a plan with hope if you like so and I think that to your point on on and to be honest it's been it's been an interesting journey sometimes people have been frustrated with us saying why can't you just kind of come up with the projects and part of it is because there's been so much said about this area that we need to understand this before we start telling who am I to tell Adam I think what you need is an ex haven't never looked at it so I think that flow of outcomes cash tools and plan is important for greener grangemouth for the grangemouth future industries board for the green port or whatever there's a lot there already we don't need to engage everybody over and over on on that what we need to engage people is what are we going to do and where are we going to get this so I think that there is more engagement needed but the focus of that engagement is different you know with confidence okay thank you Adam if I can come to you Colin Smith picked up a point about trust and and it has just talked about you know having having respecting the people of grangemouth by finding out what's already gone before but there's do you think that you the people you you are here representing the community council and the wider community do you think there's that trust has broken down between the institutions the the corporations that have had had the whose operations have had the negative impacts you've described public agencies that have maybe not listened and you know have watered down the plans things if there's if there's a breakdown of that of that trust can and should the community trust corporations public bodies to actually get this right and what do you see as being fundamental to rebuilding and sustaining that trust for for the next you know for the next period of time whether that's months years or decades that's all your questions in one sorry yeah I'm good at that I'll answer this by the community action plan investigate ways to improve relationship between local industry and the local community this includes community members it's been done by 2030 so yeah there is a breakdown there is no two ways about that do we need to solve that absolutely I've been really pessimistic here about grangemouth I think grangemouth is a wonderful place actually run a group and I've sat here I've sat I've no sat here but I've sat long enough saying we don't get this we don't get this we don't get this when you look at we made reference to certain part regeneration projects which was partnership council I run inshira part project which was completely community based you also have the g-latter team who are going around grangemouth we're having a thousand trucks a day and the reality is not all of them of course not of them but there's a lot of antisocial problems coming with that water we're picking up water pickers we're changing our town I believe whether it be folk or council Scottish Government or anything if I'm not going to change our town we'll do it for ourselves for the benefit of our town because we don't have to accept the way it is I'm hoping that government and local gets on board with that but at the same time I believe we can do it for ourselves but I do believe that both sides has a responsibility for which is probably a generation in decline in our town and that's no that there's certainly no political side of that because that goes across all political divides we spoke in depth a few times that we believe is the grangemouth community is actually Scotland's hidden shame because of where we are because of the importance to our economy in the community we live in there's been I wouldn't mind just actually just while you're talking there it's just to jump back on a point that we spoke about I think it was Tiff we spoke about and we spoke about how we would be engaged in different communities and it'll also cover about what we talk about what you have spoke about but not having the funding to do things it's more important that it is a community and I'll give an example of us where Tiff opened up a better phone traffic from the motorways into grangemouth that traffic then flows into grangemouth and this is something that from a personal experience is the roads are so congested it's unsafe for you to walk your your family to school and then you go to the council can we do something about this no we can't we can't afford that we don't have the funding which they don't and we see that in all walks whether it be building new house and you need infrastructure for that it's important that the infrastructure in grangemouth isn't built to the detriment and that can be we things it doesn't need to be the big things and I guess just a point that I was wanting to I was wanting to but it had been nipping at me there and I wanted to pull into that was that does that answer your question or is that no no that that's helpful and I think there's that that something else that we need to think of the potential negative consequences of good intentions somewhere else and we don't always make those connections final question Adam what what would you need from us to support and facilitate the capacity that that that we've heard is you know we've heard that you know there's been a lot of engagement there's obviously a lot of will to engage and to contribute and as you say make grangemouth fought for you what is it that would just make that that little bit easier for you the others on the community council and others in the community to to be part of all of the discussions we've been talking about having we've talked about short medium and long-term plans trust is an issue and we've talked about small gains and I will I will jump in there because that that meeting we had last week the 10 million pound doesn't ideal ideally we would have an open chat but we do whatever we want to do in grangemouth as a community council we are envisaging that as almost seed funding okay where we can access other funding elsewhere and that's not just going to be your task because we as I say that's what we're planning we so what is it to what would help build community the capacity of of the community to to continue with this with these discussions with the engagement with the vision processes with actually just being and creating the grangemouth the just we need an absolute vision of how this works for everybody I mean we've heard I've seen things that the council have came from and we're obviously at an early stage this plan of a train station we already for using you that aren't aware of grangemouth we already have real in grangemouth we used to have a rail station something like that even beginning a stag report you'll no see a train station delivered for five years but it would say to the community it's coming it's methods yeah and short term the community need to pay isn't it and every one of these meetings and we go away and it's two years later and nothing happens it just underlines what the community is already feeling we need a short term fix and I think if we had a commitment to a stag report that would that would make a big difference and it would say I would get more of the the non-industrial side of the community that's what I think we need from a Scottish Government point of view there's a lot of promises made I noted some of them down about Freeport Greenport however you want to put it we need the government industrial industry says one thing we need feet to the fire for the promises that are made and whether that's a constitutionally trust for grangemouth so that when for example I can't remember the last time there was a job fair in Grangemouth so where is a where is the commitment I mean from Malcolm's point of view he'll look at it as a as a falker quite thing whereas it's jobs for the whole of Falkirk whereas I'm more local and I've got to look at local first and it's got to be local people first I would like to for argument say if we're talking about constitutionally trust how's a bit of promise for anybody that applies from afk3 area has promised an interview something like that a commitment from employers where they'll at least look at the local employment and give consideration to them just we things like that makes a big difference that's it in my own opinion is that thank you those are really interesting ideas I could go on okay well the witnesses are very generously given I think more time than was anticipated this morning but I've maybe got a couple of members left to ask questions so hand over to Fiona Hyslop thank you and we do think Grangemouth is special and important which is probably the first time a parliamentary committee has done such a focus on one particular town and although the just transition will impact in every in scotland every it automatically thinks about the northeast but we've decided first to look at Grangemouth because if we can learn lessons here we can help the rest of Scotland and I was very struck Adam that your perspective you were talking about that those 20 000 additional jobs that we've been told will come with the freeport and that you want them to not drive in drive out that you might want them to stay and if they are going to travel in you want them to have the rail links of public sector which in and of itself is about town centre regeneration this committee has just done an inquiry into town centre regeneration and one of the issues was about making sure that local it's community led now you said what you want but also there's revenue that provides kind of resource as in people to help you do what you do so have you got access to any right with its community development workers or people that the community council can save this is what we want done or can you look at these reports you get left right and centre is there anything like that just now we do have support from folk at council whether it's sports hubs or the social side education we obviously have food banks and things like that and we're offered support through development for ourselves and different things that we do day to day improve as a community council because i'm also very struck what dain was talking about spend this 10 million quickly and it's capital and it's 2 million revenue but it'd be interesting to know what's happened with the revenue because we also know from our last inquiry that you know capital might be easier to come by but revenue to sustain you know the people that can help staff this isn't there i don't know if there's a and maybe michelle can help me or you can help me is you is there a grange wise improvement business improvement district a bit or anything around that area because i'm very conscious now i represent on a list go constituency next door and it's brought together community interests the community development trust and also business and there's obviously a levy around that that helps them employ staff to do this kind of work and i don't know whether that was there when you were thinking about looking at hoi or different other areas on the borderlands it's actually about how do you build in people support so for the decision makers which should be the community is that the sort of thing you were thinking about absolutely 100 so that the the there's no point in in building something that we don't think you know so if sft has taken some responsibility around the town centre work as you played out then it's our job to work with adam to say we think here are some things that are definitely going to work that will work for the future and underpinning that then is is the investment in the people infrastructure to kind of support skills some of the organizational capacity skills some of the sustainability and kind of business bit so that's where the revenue funding is really quite important it's to work with adam and colleagues to say what is the best way of using that and also what is the cash flow of that across the 10-year time period so it could be that it moves in different ways to kind of get a surge quickly and then you know scale it down as the organizations start to feel more responsible and capable so absolutely and as opposed to pick up on adam's point there are already you know supports to the community planning and the community team are fantastic down in greater we're doing lots of really great work but but if greenport are offering in little bits and pieces with revenue and grangemouth future industry is offering bits and pieces in revenue then what's our thinking is why don't we just create a pot and just pile it into the pot and get the pot to get behind adam and water and other folk so that's part of the greener grangemouth work is then saying what would it be for us then Adam is that what you're looking for yeah yeah absolutely because i'm very struck that adam you're the person that's talking about the strategic aspects of this and also you're the person that's talked about the kind of non-industrial future industries side it's the existing businesses that can grow with those income coming hopefully from you know those 20 000 additional workers so how do we mobilise the non dare I say non-industrial site aspects of grangemouth to be connected because when we talk about community it's not just community as individuals it's actually the local businesses so what's your view and how that can best be done when you discuss when government discusses economic development they never discuss the retail side it yeah if there's two set as I say that what we would like to see is an introduction in a parking levy which would have a huge impact on what we could do as a community it would make our it would make everything sustainable what we didn't want to see is a spending run yeah and it looks all right there and then we go we need it to be sustainable two sides of that is you couldn't implement something like that if you don't have proper proper public transport which we don't at the moment we have buses and that's it and most day most of what we have actually comes from outside the district so we would need more than just buses what that would see is the people that didn't want to be filtered through the town to go around the industry would then be paying a parking levy charge at work if you like or the business would be paying it however you wanted to structure it and so the people that come into the town would be spending the town which has then seen a regeneration of the town economically if you like the retail sector of it and then from the other side of it you could actually from a community point of view you could actually fund a free bus service in the town which would benefit everybody who in the come so the the wealth of the town would actually flow around it creating jobs and economic development would be spread across all areas of your town and I take it in the housing one of the issues about the plant itself is some of these workers could actually go anywhere internationally and get paid so you actually want them to live in Grangemouth and spend in Grangemouth so therefore it's not just social housing it's going to be any type of housing that attracts people to stay and spend in the town and do you see that as part of what this just transition should be to keep the skill base that we know will be needed for that transition 100% all of your housing is built in the 1970s and it's seen as a place where if I want somewhere to live I need somewhere to live I'll play for Grangemouth I'll get a flat that'll do me till I go somewhere else you can't build a sustainable community on that I mean I think excuse me if I'm wrong but I think it's 30% of the council's flatted stocks in Grangemouth it's certainly a high percentage compared to what we are within the district as I say there needs to be an appetite to change that we have seen in the past where where do we put the people in flats and then there's new houses built well why can't you take people in flats put them in your bill take that down build new houses again and then start the rotation well we can't do that because we need them to know there's always a reason not to do it you know there needs to be an appetite it's like I say in all levels it's let's deliver for Grangemouth let's change what it is but we didn't just need us to be saying this we need every level saying that and finally Malcolm obviously Falkirk council isn't just you know it's not just Falkirk it's obviously coverage Grangemouth and we have nobody's mentioned bonus so we better mention bonus but the Falkirk gross deals is a wider area and the green ports is a wider area and the Falkirk you know and the Grangemouth future industries board kind of speaks for itself it's about future industries not that wider area and but your point about being the retroplace the other committee I sit on the next zero and transport committee has just produced a report into local government partners and it one of the strong recommendations is place-based matters that's how you can pull them together so we're behind that agenda but it's not for Falkirk town it's for Grangemouth and how do you prioritise Grangemouth and do it strategically because housing and strategic housing provision is obviously key to this with the big picture stuff of potentially district heating possibly using hydrogen you knows but is that the kind of place you want to get to in looking at that place-based solution for Grangemouth itself? I think for the place-based solution for Grangemouth it's about creating a really sustainable 20 minute neighbourhood type that's a nice place to live that you know people feel happy about it that they can get the transport links that they want so that I guess that's what I'm trying to create in terms of Grangemouth I think that this discussion and you know coming to this committee has really sort of made it clear to me how we need to maybe enhance the narrative that Grangemouth does get a burden from having the fact that the industrial complex is so close to it and therefore there needs to be a quid pro quo and I don't think that if I went to parts of Falkirk they would see that sense you know they the narratives more like oh they get the Kelpies they get the you know all the jobs they get you know and I'm not meaning that you do at all I just more mean every community has its own little view but I think collectively we need to maybe make a much stronger impact yeah but they have this you know there's some really poor outcomes that we need to fix and burdens on them caused by that industrial complex and that's why we need this greater focus on Grangemouth and greater solutions I wonder if you know we talk about business and I haven't said before but thinking here a lot of the rates that are collected from Grangemouth go to the Scottish Government and maybe there is some sort of discussion that needs to be had about some sort of reallocation of those rates on a very small scale because even in a tiny scale there could be some sort of benefit for the Grangemouth area and that's the problem that we have as a council that we can't easily grab some of the benefits that the industry creates to then reportion back to the Grangemouth area so I think that you know if we're talking you know and I'm writing down here the STAG report and things like that maybe that that's a space we need to get into in terms of there's no way as a council we're going to be able to fund a train station or be able to create network rail and scot rail to you know support that and that's going to be a massive national discussion but if we have a stronger narrative that there is a trust and transition required for the communities of Grangemouth then I think maybe we'll have a better chance of getting there and we've heard about greener Grangemouth I think you've just come up with a new one greater solutions Grangemouth which sounds a bit more big and strategic and just finally one of the things that we've got concerns about is obviously the growth deals some of them have been in place for some time years is more recent but it might not be reflective of that net zero drive as was originally thought of you know in terms of when they were first established so I would not unpicking growth deals because we're very carefully put together but you talked about the need for flexibility and it would be very helpful either just now if you could explain what that might look like particularly if we're looking at just transition net zero and if you can't do that just now maybe come back to us on that because I think that would be quite helpful and there's often a deal where it has any comments and that would be yeah happy to pick up some of that so that the growth deal that we have for Falkirk includes an investment in the 10 million pounds for greener Grangemouth that we've talked about length but there's also 30 million pounds towards innovation projects linked to new technology such as so there's a project for a carbon utilisation there's a project for biofuel and there's a project for preparation of it's called strategic sites the preparation of land for you know inward investment to come in and in addition there's a major investment in a skills transition centre housed at fourth valley college to offer incubator and accelerator facilities create a green curriculum and training opportunities to to make sure that there's a workforce of young people ready to take advantage of these jobs that are created so I think those speak to a kind of you know net zero kind of aspiration in terms of the flexibilities that I sort of talked to us it's that these some of these ideas come from discussions that were had in 2015 and then they led to a kind of submission and then led to a kind of heads of terms award of money and now we're trying to sort of work down into the detail and in doing that you've got 10 projects and sometimes you might say do you know what because of construction inflation because of changing circumstances in the economy some of those don't actually look like they're going to make it and that's okay because not everything has to always be how it was conceived four or five years ago and the flexibilities would be around having a kind of pragmatic conversation that says could we maybe accept that those two don't look like they're going to make it in the way that we thought they would but could we reallocate the money quickly to these other projects that have either emerged or the existing projects that you think will make a difference but now need a bit of extra funding because of inflation and I wouldn't want to portray it that the UK and Scottish Governments are resistant to that sort of change I think that that sort of discussion is happening across Scotland but I think where I feel like it's about pace it's about you know almost can we have a quick conversation about it can we present some information can we move at pace to a new zone without it taking maybe a long time to talk about that sort of flexibility and I totally get that as UK and Scottish Governments you're giving us money and you want to make sure that we're spending it wisely and aren't just changing but I think also it's that flexibility and sort of pragmatic approach that I'm sort of talking about so we're the parliament so we can actually then make these points to the government so maybe that's that might be helpful as well in terms of that's what we're trying to do with this inquiry you said what would be the most helpful things so that's why recommendations to help inform the Just Transition Grangerise plan from the government so this is your opportunity to to get that pitch and have we got time to hear from Dermot on this if you want to say if it's brief yeah sure so just building on on flexibility I guess one of the key issues in all of the growth deals is that there's quite a lot of investment in innovation and innovation is not a linear process you know so as Malcolm laid out the deal was constructed a number of years ago now we've moved into a different space so the partners in the innovation and the methods of innovation and the shape of the innovation might change will change and so there might be risks in so I think that it's flexibility around how the outcome is achieved but more particularly how the outcome is communicated so because it seems to have moved or changed from what said doesn't mean the outcome is not going to happen so the second bit I think is just the the advantage of the the deal space to pick up at your point around housing mrs lop is that it gives you a 10-year horizon and actually the skeleton of a of an outstanding 20 minute neighbourhood is in Grangemouth you can see how the active travel could connect on you could see how the green space could connect on you could see how that opens up if some of the industrial spaces around the the eastern edge of the town were to shift and you had brownfield you could see a supply of different land a supply of different amenities and moving on so I think it's important to be able to to build on the foundations that are there but also to to try and coordinate a number of the different housing investments around that so you can see it actually happening and I suppose the final bit on that again is around how this town is communicated so I've picked up on the outcome on the flexibility on the innovation but I think it's really important the way that Grangemouth is communicated as an idea is not just the industrial complex and it's certainly not just the deprivation that has happened but it must pick up on some of the positivity and the energy from Adam and colleagues and must pick up on the future story of where we're getting to so I think there's a kind of an ask that we're all kept accountable not to communicate Grangemouth as the nexus of problems but actually to start communicating its potential and to drive that feel free to use greater solutions thank you it's interesting that the conversation ended up because during the witness sessions you know I was reflecting on we were talking about a just transition for Grangemouth a just transition suggests you're going from somewhere already positive and viable to you having to make a shift and here it's the industrial complex I'm going to make a shift to net zero but the evidence we've heard from Adam and the paper from Adam and I think Malcolm talked to us well about you know the high levels of low health of unemployment there's already in some ways what's the Grangemouth is still living by the industrial heritage from longer ago and is still living with the consequences of that so when the government are putting together the draft plan that we're expecting towards the end of spring and Malcolm you kind of hid it in this direction when you said we need to think not just about the industrial base here it is about the broader community and in some ways they're starting out as a completely different place from the industrial basis the challenges they're facing is different would that be you know do you think government has it's back to the question of what's the interpretation of just transitions do you anticipate the draft report the draft I think they're calling that report the plan from the government will take a broader view is that something the committee should be emphasising do you think with the minister I have to be honest I don't have detailed insight into the the plan that comes forward I think the fact that £10 million has been allocated to Green and Grangemouth shows that the Scottish government does have a keen understanding of being able to support that but whether or not the scale of what we've you know we've talked at length today about this isn't going to be a £10 million fix this is a pretty significant fix and I don't know to what extent the report that comes forward will address those aspects because also there is a fundamental need to ensure that Scotland's economy or these industrial complexes transition successfully and I don't think we can lose sight of that you know that that that has a huge significant strategic impact on Scotland's future as a country so but I would hope that through the discussions that we've had today that some of that will resonate up into the report thank you and Adam welcome to you with the last kind of question thank you for taking part this morning and we have the minister coming in in a few weeks so he's the Scottish government's representative what's the kind of key thing we need you think we need to tell him about Grangemouth's future and what needs to happen in Grangemouth Grangemouth's transition needs to be inclusive and it's an opportunity to not only evolve industry but evolve the community and I probably think that the best the best the best way in explaining the best statement to make is levelling up the non-industrial community Grangemouth I think that is that is a key message we need to transition the industry absolutely 100% and we're behind that we try to look at the benefits that can be funneled through to the other side the other side of Grangemouth to bring Grangemouth up to what it should be and it should be an example to where someone in Scotland would want to work with and be part of your 20-minute neighbourhood that's great thank you to all the witnesses there this morning for the time you've given us I'll now move into private session