 What kind of things did you learn from Noa D? He kind of speaks in these like Yoda-like, I mean he also just is normal and hangs out, but sometimes he'll set up a session, like he would bring me and like, you know, FKA twigs and two other people in a room and be kind of like, all right, go, you know? And he'd talk through a lot of it and then he would kind of let us work, you know? And then he would come back and be like that one and then he'd put some drums on it and kind of finish. But he would say, if you put a bunch of people in a room and you come back in here today and they're like, so how'd it go? And they're like, oh, we made a vibe. He's like, that means you fucked up because you were supposed to make a song. Yeah. What's up, what's up, what's up? I'm Brandon Shawn. And I'm Cory. And we are back with another episode of No Labels Necessary Podcast. You can catch us every Tuesday, every Thursday on YouTube, Apple Spotify, wherever you stream your podcast here at the intersection of creativity and currency. And as you guys know, we love to bring people on to represent the path and the idea of No Labels going their own path, building their own unique journey through this creative industry. And today we have a producer who has all kind of accolades. He's worked with people like Kanye West, Travis Scott, the list go on. He's been on the Spider-Man soundtrack, which is a huge movie at the moment. I have yet to see it, but everybody keeps telling me is great. Cory told me like, hey, that thing. Yeah, I gotta see it. I gotta see it. So we have Johann Lennox with us here today. By the way, you're an artist as well. And we're gonna definitely get into that journey. But first and foremost, let's start with, hey man, I appreciate you for pulling up. Yes, sir, thank you. Now, producer doesn't really suit you as cleanly as it fits a lot of different producers, right? Not just cause you're a producer and an artist, but if you read a headline with your name on it, sometimes it'll say composer as well, right? Why composer as opposed to producer? Well, I started like doing classical music originally and I was writing like for orchestras and stuff like that when I was before I even like got into even knowing how to produce or sing or any of that stuff. So I feel like everything I've done since then kind of comes out of that, I guess. But it's also just like the thing that distinguishes me. Like I don't really make beats that much. Most of what I do is more composing for string instruments or whatever, brass, piano. I'll do it on sheet music even. So I think that's the thing that I've done the most and it's the thing that's most, I guess, unique about me. You're still writing sheet music today? Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's like programs you can do it on that'll like make it look good. But yeah, I mean like all the strings I've done on my own records and on other people's records. And like even when I go on tour, when I have violins on stage, everyone in all the situations is reading sheet music that I wrote. And that's how I don't have to rehearse really. And I don't even have to be in the room when I record strings for records because they just read the thing I wrote and it's always correct. So it's like, I didn't learn that skill knowing I was gonna use it for this type of stuff, but it's cool that I, I mean, it's lucky that I did learn it. But it's like, I was doing that before I ever got into this type of stuff. Let's talk about that. You started in classical music, right? And it wasn't just, you know, I took some violin classes in school and maybe even went on to college. You went beyond college and actually had a career in classical music for a period of time. A little bit. I mean, it kind of actually started before college. Like I was in high school. I was already getting like paid by orchestras and choirs and stuff to write music for them for their concerts. So are you like a prodigy, man? Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I was trying to, there's like a lane that was like that for like classical people, especially. There was like a classical prodigy kind of thing. You know, like they love kids doing that stuff. It's just interesting, I guess. Yeah. So I was, yeah, I was like in that kind of lane. And then when I went to college, I got kind of interested in other types of music too. But I kept doing that stuff. But that's when I started noticing what Kaye was doing with his music and just other artists that are like more mainstream, I guess. So when did the transition start to happen? Like when did you start moving more into, I guess, the rap-pop hip-hop space? Pretty much as soon as I left school, it was like I had that realization that like the way to bring some of the classical stuff that I really wanted to do to like a mainstream audience, which is something I've always cared about. Like it always frustrated me how like limited the audience for that music can be. And it's mostly like old people. It's mostly like a very like traditional kind of audience that isn't that exciting or fresh, I guess. So I was already thinking about that. But then kind of, yeah, like just getting into kind of a, especially the album, My Beautiful Darker is a Fantasy. And I guess Yeezus too, just seeing like, oh, you can put music that's that symphonic or that weird into like a much more mainstream space if you have that kind of platform or know how to market stuff or whatever. So yeah, pretty much as soon as I left school, I would like move to LA. And it was just like, I'm gonna learn how to produce. I'm gonna learn how to sing. Like it was kind of overnight, just starting from scratch. And it wasn't, like eventually I got in with the string arranging for big artists and stuff like that and the composition and figuring out how to combine those two things and into that part of my career. But like initially it was really like just put all that to the side and it was just focusing on songwriting and producing, which I think was important. It was like probably the biggest risk I've ever taken but it was how I'm here. Were you finding success with just that before people knew about your strings background? I was in like decent rooms as a songwriter first. Not like great rooms, but just, you know, I was like out here working with a lot of people and like LA is really good for that. Like there's just a lot of collaboration. It's very easy to be like, oh, like let's get in a session and like pull up or whatever. So that was happening pretty quickly but I wasn't getting cuts really for a couple of years. Like I wasn't really able to get like, I don't know, it's pretty hard. I mean, especially like pitching songs which is kind of, I was on the pop side of things a little bit and you know, you'll do sessions where there's no artists in the room. You're just trying to write a song to then send to like Justin Bieber or something or the weekend, you know. He probably writes all his own stuff but like that's hard. That's really, really hard to do. It's like almost nothing ever gets made that way but if you're trying to go that path and you're not in with those big artists, you don't have a choice, you know. So I think initially a lot of those sessions were just about putting in like reps and just kind of learning, writing with different people, learning how songs get put together I think. How many songs do you feel like for those people who are in those type of rooms that have to send it off, how many songs do you feel like get placed out of whatever amount? I mean, one out of hundreds probably. Well, and there's degrees too because it's like you get placed on, I mean again, we're talking like really pop shit but I guess it's true for hip hop with beat placements a little bit too where you might cook up and make a beat together and then you're basically just sending that beat out for a year or two waiting for somebody to bite, you know. But like, you know, if you're trying to, being a songwriter like especially, let's say like pop and R&B like where there really are just people whose job is just to help write lyrics and melodies for other artists, that job is like the hardest job in the music industry to make money at I think because it's like you can sign a publishing deal off of your potential and then you have that money to live off of until you get a hit. And to get a hit is like, the artist has to like the song, they have to cut the song, they have to put the song on the album. It has to be a single and then it has to be a hit. It can't just be a single that doesn't, you know. And then at that point, maybe you recoup the advance, you know. Until that happens, you're basically screwed I think but you can do like sync stuff. There's like other ways in but I think that is the hardest. Cause at least as a producer, you get an upfront fee for your work usually if it's a major artist, whether or not the song does anything, even if it's an album cut, but just pure songwriting is like, that's brutal. Yeah. So you talked about, you know, sometimes you can be in these rooms where it may just be you and writers, no artist. And I know when I first met you, you were working with his artist name, telling the mailman and I watched you being active with him in a way where, I don't know, it wasn't like the traditional producer situation where y'all were talking more so about just the melodies, but like you were talking to him through like personal stuff, you know what I'm saying? That scene to kind of help him out. Like I remember you saying like, yo bro, like you just seem nervous. Like let's go outside, take a break. You know what I'm saying? Chill out for a little bit and come back. So do you feel like not having access to artists in that way, messes up the ability to get a hit out of them? Or is it, does it still kind of feel the same whether you have the access or not? I think the really good producers, like I almost never do that. Like you saw me in a hands-on situation with an artist where I was like, I just like him because we're both artists, but almost never like do I, you know what I mean? Like most of my time I spend on my own stuff or I'm just doing strings or something on a song that's basically done already, but like that kind of like ground up process from the beginning. It's like, it's gotta be someone I really like to do that stuff with, you know, and it's like 070 Shake. It's like, you know, Tom the Mailman, whatever, but like I do think that the really great producers often are the ones who I guess don't just make beats, but like are there to really, I'm gonna say babysit the process maybe, I mean there's a better word for it, but just like they really are making sure all the way through that it's like, is that the hook, is that really the one? You know, maybe let's start a new idea. Like they have a sound in mind for like what the final product needs to sound like in order to be a big song, and it's not just like here's the beat, like thanks, I mean, I think you can definitely have a career doing that, but the real goats are like, yeah, or like, yeah, they're making the song exist and kind of watching every step of the process and helping the artist find, I mean you hear about like Jack Antonoff a lot in the pop world and his production style doesn't necessarily have that much of like a signature sound like he kind of, he adapts to the artist a lot, but apparently, and I've never been in session with him, but all the artists done like, you know, Lord and Taylor Swift, like just big like pop stuff, that what they all say, I think, is that he just makes them really comfortable in the room and is able to get them to like tell these stories that are personal to them and write the song they really wanna write, and a lot of that it's just, has nothing to do with anything that you're doing on a computer, it's just like relationship and psychology and stuff like that. That's interesting. Before we get too deep into specific projects and things you've done, I don't want it to be missed that you said you took that risk moving to LA, leaving classical behind for a period of time, like what is that like for an artist who moves to LA? Cause this is obviously that city of dreams where so many people do that, but I don't really hear too many people go through like, I mean, this is like, I'm finding the crib, do you immediately reach out to maybe management or like, how do you even figure out your way through the process? Yeah, it was terrifying. It was like, yeah, the scariest thing, I'm very like risk averse in general, I think. And the scariest part of that was definitely just not, like I had some momentum with the classical stuff and just being like, I'm gonna not pursue that right now. Like it felt like sacrificing him and I spent like a year building up a little bit. Even though I wasn't like, fuck you everybody, I'm out, you know, it's like, like I can always go back, but it's like, you know, you're really shifting completely and sort of stop, you know what I mean? Like that, that felt like a huge risk. But yeah, I mean, living in LA, I guess the way I did it was, I was actually in New York for like several months before that, like right out of school, I was in New York. I was thinking about that, how my friends in New York, I'm from the Northeast. So it's like, it made that seem like the place to go. But I already had in my mind, maybe I'll have to be bicoastal here in LA. I knew LA was important for like a lot of the music that I'm interested in. But basically what I did was I just, I went out to LA a couple times for like a week each and just like really try to pack those weeks with like as many random meetings or sessions. There's more meetings really at the time because I hadn't even really done that much sessions. But I was just like, before I moved to LA, I was kind of like, I was trying to see what was up and see if it was even possible to like do that, I guess. And so it was a lot of the randomest kind of shit really of just like, well, like that dude's cousin's sister, like dating an artist who signed a like pit bull or something. So that sounds legit, I guess. And he met with me over lunch and just gave me some advice. You know, most of that shit didn't get on anywhere. I met with a few people who worked, I was lucky that I wasn't connected in the sense that I didn't know anybody in the music industry at all. But like, I was a few degrees out from people who knew people mainly at publishers, like low level A&Rs at publishers. And I met like two or three of those. And one of them was just interested enough, just based off of kind of the classical stuff I had done that they were like, I think it happened that there was a dude named Andrew Gould at a BMG at the time. I think he's at like Rock Nation now or something like that. But he, I think we just connected on, like we were both from Massachusetts and he also played piano growing up. I really think that's what happened, you know? Because I had like eight or 10 meetings that were probably equal or worse than that. But the reason he kept fucking with me and started introducing me to people I think was just those two things were just kind of like, he's like, oh, okay, I kind of see myself in this dude a little bit maybe, something like that. Which is luck, but I do think a lot of times that's what happens, right? And so then with that relationship, I mean, I kept trying to do it in New York for like a few more months. And then kind of with that, I was kind of like, I'm getting more traction in LA. And traction really just meant like meeting people. Like I wasn't, again, like getting cuts or making any kind of money on that. I was still basically just funding it using like, or like paying my rent using the money I had saved up and the money I was making just off of the classical stuff, which wasn't much, you know? And I was living on like an air mattress and shit. Like it wasn't, you know, like, I definitely had to like rough it for a bit. I like that you did those test runs though, coming out. I'm just, I'm not gonna do anything without feeling like there's precedent for it or there's evidence that there's some, you know, I'm just very, like I said, kind of risk averse in that way. But I felt like that was the only way to, like I felt like I had to come out here, but I just, I had maybe been here once before that and I just didn't know anybody. So I was just kind of like, I'm not just gonna move. I'm gonna at least see what's possible. Let's talk about the fact that most artists fail to understand that it doesn't take forever to monetize your audience. We had an artist literally begin to take off and make $20,000 from his brand new audience in the same month. But how is that possible? It's because we're in a new era, baby. Yes, you wanna continue to build a relationship over time, but the first time you make money from your audience can happen today if you understand the new age music marketing funnel for artists. So if you wanna hear about this approach and how you can apply it to yourself, I made a completely free video to watch at www.nolabelsnecessary.com slash monetize. You gotta make sure you put the www or if you're on YouTube, you can find the link in the description and check out how we help monetize artists for completely free. I promise it'll completely change how you see things. Yeah, man. So one thing I wanted to ask you, you mentioned just coming from classical space, right? This is a genre that's traditionally seen or traditionally is dominated by, I guess the older artists for a sense, right? Have you ever thought about labeling yourself as a classical music artist or still keeping your sound and just seeing if you can kind of come in and like revamp the space? I guess one, have you thought about that? And two, from your knowledge of the space, is that something that even seems to be possible? I mean, I think there's some aspects of that that are kind of interesting. Like you think about like Lil Nas X putting that song out and labeling it as country and then it stood out and it kind of became this debate about what it was this country. And I am very interested in that idea. Like I put out an album last year that had like Danny Brown and 645 AR and like fucking like, you know, a bunch of uncredited features but I'm like, oh, Casey Hill from Good Music. Like a lot of random features on it but it was really a classical album that just had vocals and it's kind of hard to describe. You kind of just have to hear a very weird project. I collaborate with a bunch of classical people on that. And I was pretty adamant that we labeled that classical. But I sort of have like, I mean, if you want to get really into this, I think of classical music as like having certain values and I think of like pop and hip hop music as having their own sets of values and stuff like that. And I bring classical elements into my like vocal with the music I sing, like the pop music stuff that I do. And obviously into my production for other rappers and singers, I add strings and stuff like that. But to me it's like those records are not, no matter how much of that you put in because of the format and because of how it's intended to be listened to like what context it's supposed to be used in, it's not classical music, no matter how much of that you put in, you know? And then I think classical music can be classical music, no matter, like you can put eight or 10 rappers and singers on a classical project, which is what I did. But it's still classical to me because it was like basically the way it's meant to be listened to and the way it was written, it's not for the club. It's not for, you know, like it's still, it's like the values and the context that it's for I think to make it what it is. So that I labeled as classical. I'm putting out a classical album later this year that's just string quartet music and stuff like that, but I put like modern production techniques like distortion and delay and like stuff modulation, whatever, stuff like that on it. But I'm labeling that a classical album. And so it's like I'm interested in messing with both sides of it and being like, well, what if a classical album did have a rapper on it? What if it did have distortion on the cello part or something like that? But I still think they're kind of for different. And then I do want to bring people over to the classical side of things as an audience. But I still think it's like the format and the presentation. Like I think the genre, the boundaries are like actually helpful kind of and it's more interesting to work within them than to kind of. Can you elaborate on those boundaries for classical as you see them? And then obviously the values that you say you saw in hip hop? Yeah, I mean, I think, well, part of it's just like what a song is, like I think a song, like I don't hear, like I want classical music to be like a huge deal in America or something. This is like my big, big ambition in the long term. I don't see that as being like, oh, suddenly we have like three minute classical songs on the radio. Because that's not what it's for. You know what I mean? To me, classical music lives in a space where it's like I want to go sit in a room. I think it's better live for the most part, but I want to go sit in a room and experience some crazy shit. To me that it's like it lives in the same lane as like Cirque du Soleil or something to me at its best, you know? Or like operas or like musicals, a little bit of that. It's like I'm going to sit down and this is going to be crazy for two hours or whatever. Like to me that's very different from like songs. Because it's on playlists or songs, you know, like just obviously most music in the pop and hip hop space is driven by like lyrics and stuff like that. It's about understanding what they're talking about in a story like that. I think classical music can be a lot more about just like open-ended letting you kind of interpret it how you want and run with that. I think there's just ways that they kind of operate that are kind of different. I mean I do think there's aspects of pop and hip hop music that are close to operating the way classical does. Like certainly if you think like like the Mike Dean like synth album or something like that or like some of like the Flying Lotus stuff or something like that is like, it's definitely more in that. Like let me trip out, let me just experience this as like a long-term kind of thing. Less about like where's the hook? Where's the verse at? You know, stuff like that I guess. But those are both valid types of music. I just don't think. Like you can put as much classical as you want into a song that has a verse and a chorus. It's still gonna be a song, like a pop song to me. You know, or hip hop song. It's like, and so sometimes people are like, oh you're like combining the two and I'm like I don't really see it that way. I think I'm bringing elements of some into one world or advice versa. But I don't think that there's such a thing as like a, I don't know what the word would be, like a genre hybrid of the two. Cause I just think it's like, well which is it? Like how am I supposed, where is this for? How is this supposed to be consumed? I think that stuff is kind of interesting. Yeah, like is that even a model for you to follow in this space? Cause it kind of looks like from the outside looking in, like you're building the marketplace for that type of music. I'm trying to. And yeah, and there's been interesting versions of that. Like I went on tour last year opening for 070 Shake, who's like a rapper singer. And that was like her whole US tour open for that. And she wanted me to, on a couple of the shows I did like my set. And then she wanted me to do like just a classical set also, you know? Cause there was only one opener. We had a lot of time to fill mainly, but also she just loves that I do that. And that was really interesting cause you have all these people who came to a show who know her lyrics, who might be like drunk or whatever cause they're at a show. And now I'm just like, okay guys, I'm gonna do like 15 minutes of classical music now. Like hope that's okay, you know? And it's, but you know, I made it loud and I had like some good lighting and shit going on. Hopefully to keep it interesting. But it is like a crazy thing to ask of people. And I've been enjoying that. And I mean, a lot of people came up to me were like that was my favorite part of the night. Period, you know? Which is incredible. A lot of people probably also were like what the fuck was that? But it's like, it's okay. Like I'm finding where these people are at and taking them into my space. And I do think there's like, you can push these, the boundaries a bit, but yeah, I mean, really I'm trying to just amass a following that will then come to it, whatever I do kind of in that, give me that freedom. Yeah. When would you say things changed for you, right? You had that moment that really brought you into the industry. You started working with bigger artists. There was like a couple steps. I mean, one was, well, yeah, okay. So I did a concert called Yeethoven with a friend of mine that was like, literally we did a bunch of music from Yeezus with a live orchestra. And we did some Beethoven on the same program. And we kind of, almost like little miniature like Ted Talk vibes of just like in between each thing would just come out and be like, so this is the next thing we're gonna do. You can listen for this and this. This is why they're similar. Here we go, you know? And just to help people figure out what was even going on. And people love that shit. And it was like very viral kind of for obvious reasons. Like you put Kanye plus orchestra in a headline. People love getting mad about us comparing him to Beethoven or whatever for obvious reasons. Like, and this is like a few years before, you know, shit really went, you know, left with him, I guess. But in some respects at least. But that was, no, that was like an awesome thing that we did just for fun that I didn't even know was gonna kind of lead to a lot of opportunities because some of the people I already knew who came out to that suddenly they could be like introducing me to somebody else. Like, yo, have you seen this guy? He did this thing. And it was easier to be like, it's just hard when you haven't done anything. And I hadn't really done anything in this space that I'm trying to get into at the time. But at least that was just so audacious and insane. And obviously incredibly lucky that I had come out of this background enough where I was connected to people who could get an orchestra together and not have to, like it's like an existing organization, like no one had to pay. Like we weren't paying out of pocket for this. It was just like, it was a friend of mine was employed at this orchestra that existed. And he was just like, I wanna do something crazy. And it's like, I was like, what if we do this, you know? So it's like that, I got lucky in that sense. But, and I got kind of lucky because it was actually his idea originally, my friend would just be like, I would love to do something like Kanye's music. And then I kind of came up with a lot of what the idea ended up being and did the music with him. But he was the one who had an orchestra that he had access to. And like, that's obviously insanely lucky. But yeah, so like that, that opportunity basically led to me meeting, Vic Mezzo was kind of the first artist because his management at the time was to David Appleton was co-managing him with like Scooter Braun, so they do Cody. And so I met Scooter briefly and I met Vic and they were just like, oh, you should do strings for Vic. And he did this cool kind of thing, you know, whatever. So I was just like, that was the first one in. And Vic is the nicest dude in the world. So Vic really took care of me and just kind of introduced me to no ID. And later we were doing Travis Barker stuff for a second. He was doing like pop punk type music. And so through Travis, I met some people through no ID, I met some people. And then also around that time, Mike Dean followed me on Twitter also because of that concert, because somebody had tagged him because it's like we did his guitar solo in the orchestra version. And somebody was just like, this is Mike Dean, it's so crazy. And so he followed me and then I hit him and he was working with Vic at the same time. So it was at two points of like, okay, this guy's legit or whatever. And then that's when things started to kind of happen and Mike brought me in on Kanye stuff and Astro World and all that. So that's kind of when that all happened. And then after that, it was a lot easier. That's crazy because, you know, a lot of times people are trying to get attention in the industry or fans, whatever. And you're thinking like, oh, I gotta create some music, like for my project or I have a song blow up, have a, I don't know, get a couple of connections, whatever, there's all these typical routes. But the lesson in which you did to me is just create a spectacle. You know what I mean? Yeah, which is hard to do cheaply, but there's, you know, a lot of, I think most people I've seen do it successfully, do it on the internet, just come up with some viral thing that you just, you know, and just really lean into that aspect of it. But it's hard, everybody's trying to go viral right now. But it also showed your talent too, right? So I felt like something like that, it only has to go but so viral because the people can see your talent is not something that, you know, I don't know, you're smashing up some glass and everybody's sharing it, but what happens to it, right? So I think that was, it's pretty cool. And I think that, I mean, I don't know what other people's version for that is. I think covers in general kind of work that way. I mean, others, a lot of people know a lot of covers, but if somebody, like what we had was like the benefit of people clicking on something because Kanye's name is on it and then they get rewarded by seeing something cool is good, you know? And it's like, if, yeah, if you do a cover of a song and you flipped it in an interesting way, I don't think it's that hard. Like if you do a bunch of that stuff, like to get one off and like people fuck with you now because they found you through just basically searching shit related to that artist or something. Like, I think that's kind of the same shit, basically. You know? And then it's like, oh, you did your thing on this. And it's like, but I feel like covers go viral a lot, at least on TikTok and shit, you know, like on YouTube too. Like there's a lot of artists that came up just doing covers and stuff first. Yeah, whole lot. Damn, his version of that song is totally different from what I expected. I mean, fucking even Frank did it, really. Remember like he did a tape that was basically just covers, right? You know what I mean? Like it may be that he didn't need it, but there might, it may be that cover in Coldplay and stuff like that, that was what he was trying to do a little bit. You know what I mean? I don't know. Okay. So, I mean, you get into these rooms, like things start to click for you. What was it like just at first in general? Like was it like relief? I'm official now. Yeah, it was really exciting, obviously. I mean, meeting a lot of big artists pretty fast was exciting, but I mean, the focus has always been the artist stuff for me because like there's not that many examples of producers whose career is like, I guess who have just such a big platform as a personality, I guess, that they can just be like, now I'm doing an orchestra concert who's coming, you know? There's not like, how many producers could really do that? Like Kenny Beats could probably do it, like Dean could probably do it, Timbaland could do it, Metro could do it for sure. Metro's the best example, really. Rick Rubin could maybe do it, you know? Maybe, I don't know. You know what I mean? It's like hard, that's a lot to add. Like people, like your fans, when you're a big producer and you build a following are basically just other producers and other musicians and stuff. And I do have a lot of that. And there's some truth, like you can build. It's kind of interesting actually, I went on tour in Europe earlier this year opening for this like Prague rock band called Polyphia, that's like huge on the internet. I don't know, it's like, I had never heard of them, but they're huge. And their fans are like mostly, like they play guitar really good, like there's one dude who you've probably seen on Instagram stuff, he's just constantly like shredding, just like the fastest, craziest guitar player you've ever seen in your life. And they make great music. But like a lot of their fans come to the shows, with guitars to get signed at the end of the show. They have a lot of musicians that are following and they've managed to just build that big enough that that, and then there's other people who aren't that, but it's like, that was a glimpse into like maybe it is possible to just build a fan base off of aspiring musicians or something, but I definitely wouldn't want to be limited to that. And the artist stuff was always the focus for me. So I guess I felt like that was gonna be like helpful, which it has been having the production credits and the connections there. And it's like kind of how I got a lot of the features on my album and stuff is through relationships, through producing and stuff, but that's always been the focus. So I guess I never felt like, oh, I've made it because it's like, I mean, I'm not broke anymore. That part was amazing, but, you know. But like, but no, I mean, I'm still very much in like, I feel like I'm on the ground level still. Do you want to more so leave the production behind at some point or, you know how Kanye, he did his transition, by and large, he's still a producer. But it's very artist heavy in terms of brain and how people think of him. Do you want to go that far? Or do you want to balance it, Dr. Dre? No, I see him as the model, but it's also like there's this third thing, which is the composition aspect, the composing, which is like, I guess maybe that's like him doing fashion or something. It's just like a whole other thing that doesn't even really intersect with either one. But it's like the amount of beats Kanye is making for other artists these days, it's like, it's gotta be like at most 10% of his time. And I think that, that feels about right to me. I could do a little bit more, but it's not, there's also like, you could do composing for a TV and movies and stuff like that. It's like, is that count is producing? Maybe, because there is producing involved, but in terms of just like being in sessions with other artists, trying to get them a record, like that's, it's fun when it's somebody I love or that I just personally or love their music, like 070 Shake, like I said, or Tom the Mailman, but like, the list is very short and like, really I'm not driven in the way some producers are by just the pure adrenaline of trying to get a huge artist to put your single out. I dabble, like I did three days with this artist, Jess Glyn, who's like a huge pop star in the UK and she's had like, I think one or two big ones here. And that's like so far from the type of music I normally listen to or make, but I enjoy just having three days with her and another producer named Roy Lenzo. And we just like made three songs and I'm pretty sure all three made the album and one's the single or something like that. I mean, I guess we'll see exactly what it looks like, but like that, that was a very satisfying way to do that. I would not want to do 200 days of that a year, you know? But three days of just like a great artist who gets real radio hits is an incredible voice, you know? And we just went in and just like, we're just gonna deliver some really pro shit here. And I'm gonna make these three days count and then I'm gonna go back to do my shit for the next three months, you know? Yeah, so how do you balance the, like the creative energy management? Cause I can assume there has to be a point where you may be sitting in these sessions possibly feeling like, hey, I don't want to burn myself out creatively so that when it's time to work on my stuff, I have nothing or, you know, I don't want to feel like I'm giving away my best ideas majority of the time. And then when I go back to my stuff, I don't have anything. So like, how do you, how do you balance that? Yeah, well, those sessions were good just cause it's like, it's so far from anything I would ever do for myself. That it kind of just felt like a break from stuff. And I do a lot of different things, you know? Like I, right now I mentioned it earlier, or like before we started, I was talking about how I'm working on like some live event, like experiential party shit. And that's a lot of work. And it's kind of like a lot of logistical work which is annoying in some way. But it's, it's a good break from all that stuff. Cause it's a completely different part of my brain. And then, then, you know, I got to do some string arrangements for artists. And then I got to figure out my social media plan for the album. And then I got to go make, you know, it's like by the time I've done all that and I come back to my own stuff, it's like, oh, thank God, you know? So it's like just having a range of different activities that I think makes me feel like I'm always on some different shit, which is exciting. But also like working with like, like I'll always go do the 070 Shake Session cause she's like basically my favorite artist. And that recharges me creatively cause I'm just living in her space and hearing where she's at and what she's getting excited about musically gives me inspiration to make shit. And it's not like I'm making stuff that sounds like her, but just even seeing what she's into and understanding her taste even better. It's just like, you know, it'd be like the same. I work with Kanye very briefly, but like it'd be like the same thing. Just imagine just being in a session with Kanye for like three months and just being like, wow, I really know what this dude, you know? Assuming you were really on, you know, like working hard and really focused, like now you know how the greatest artists of all time like thinks basically, you know? And I learned a lot from no ID that way too. Like almost nothing I worked on with no ID ever came out, but I learned so much about how he makes music and stuff that those sessions are just like a vacation pretty much, you know? What kind of things did you learn from no ID? There's so much shit. I mean, he like kind of speaks in these like Yoda like, I mean, he also just is normal and hangs out, but he has so many things that he says that are just the most quotable pieces of like wisdom that you would, you know, shit. I mean, there's one that I love saying a lot that he, I told him this like after I was like, you remember saying this? Just say shit, you know? But he said, he said, I hate when like, cause sometimes he'll set up a session like he would bring me and like, you know, FK twigs and two other people in a room and be kind of like, all right, go, you know? And he'd talk through a lot of it and then he would kind of let us work, you know? And they would come back and be like that one and then he'd put some drums on it and kind of fit it, you know? But he would say, if you put a bunch of people in a room and they, and you come back in a day and you're like, so how'd it go? And they're like, oh, we made a vibe. He's like, that means you fucked up cause you were supposed to make a song. But like I interpreted it to just be like, well, also people always make a vibe but it's like, you know, like really like a song and it kind of speaks to what I was saying earlier which is a song is not just like, oh, this is, this is kind of cool, you know? Like a song has like a hook, it has like a structure, you know, it's like, it has some sort of intention and some focus to it, you know? And I kind of respected at that level for the most part, he wasn't even gonna bother putting the drums on the song until it was a song, cause the drums are, I think for like one of the greatest drum producers of all time I think it was kind of interesting that he recognized that like, it's not the drums that are making this what it is, it's the vocal. Cause it's a song, it's, you wanna hear, and we did a lot of R&B stuff together, especially, but like, you know, most people out there are gonna be like, what are they singing about? Is this like, this is catchy, you know? That's the thing, you know? And the drums are very important obviously and he can make anything fire, but it's not, no amount of good and no IDVs matter if the song isn't there. Yeah, that is interesting to be that successful, but then still understand where you play your role. Have you seen that, just, you know, not necessarily names, just people, as you've navigated the industry, experienced people who had different levels of success, is that like a common thing that we're the ones that really seem to be locked in, understand exactly what they provide? Yeah, and I think also, I mean, it kind of speaks to what we were talking about earlier, which is just like the really great producers know that there's no, there's no career without the songs getting cut and the song being a good song, you know? And they structure their process increasingly, I find. Even the ones that start as beat makers, the ones that really become big producers, structure how they work around the goal of getting a good song. It's not just, you know, well, I did my thing on this beat and that, my job is over, you know? I mean, I guess there are probably really big beat makers that just do that, but the people, when I think of producer, I'm thinking like someone who really makes sure that whatever that needs to happen for the artist to do their thing happens, you know? Whether they're just bringing in another songwriter, like, oh, these two might work together, thinking that way. No idea, like I said, putting people together, matchmaking kind of in that way. That's like such a big part. I mean, Rick Rubin doesn't really make beats even, I think, anymore or whatever. He pretty much just like, he's just listening. He's finding interesting people, putting them with interesting people, listening and just being like, I think the tempo on that could be a little faster. You know, that's it, you know? But knowing and having with 100% confidence that that's what that needs or else it's not gonna be the hit that it could be, you know? What was it like working on Spider-Man? It was hectic. I mean, it was between two tours that I was on and it was basically like Metro had just come off of the Coachella set. And I think I texted him because a lot of people were blowing up my phone from that because his whole set started with just like an acapella of my vocals because that's how his Heroes and Villains started and that's how he started. So people were just like, that's Yohan, and it was sick. So I was just like, oh, that's awesome. I didn't go, but I just was hearing people send me videos and shit. So I texted him, I was like, yeah, thanks. That's awesome, you know? And he was just like, yeah, it's sick. Like I'm back in LA, it's like Spider-Verse time. So I was like, all right, cool. So then he hit me like a week later and he was just like, just pull up to the studio and like, actually, you know what? It was probably like the day after that. I think it was literally he came back from Coachella the next day, it was kind of like, okay, cool. This is what the album sounds like. These songs, I think, could use some orchestration, these could use some outros, whatever, some vocal stuff, whatever you want to do. And then just gave me bounces of the four that I worked on. That was actually a pretty good, because sometimes it's like I'll work on a lot of ideas and you don't know what's gonna get used, but that was like, he really knew which four and I worked on all of them and did stuff on all of them and all of it. Not everything I did got used. I tend to like, so that like additional production side of what I do, it's very like, I throw a lot at the wall and just see what sticks kind of thing. Like I gave him like, you know, you could have these like, this big melody here, you could have this outro here, you could also have this thing over on this bridge. I mean, you add this other section, you know, it's like, here's all of it. And then usually like, you know, maybe a quarter of that gets used or something like that, but it's just giving the option so you don't have to keep going back and forth too much and just making it. So there's something in there that he's gonna grab it to. And increasingly, like seeing what he uses also makes it easier to be like, this is what he likes, you know? Like just do more of that or something, but then still pushing it. And yeah, so I don't, yeah, I don't know. I'm trying to think. I mean, I saw, I guess I was in with him and Don Toliver for one of them. But yeah, mostly I was adding to stuff that was like pretty finished and kind of just, just did my thing and then came back a week later play it for him. He was just like, I just gave him everything. Tracking strings and a lot of, I stacked my vocals up to make this kind of choir texture on a lot of stuff and a lot of that. You can see on my TikTok, I've been posting videos recently just like showing exactly what I did and how I did it. But yeah, very smooth process. He's like really a professional, you know? Doesn't fuck around. Are producers cool with that these days? You see more and more of them giving insight into the process. There's a range, I guess, yeah. I mean, apparently the kind of stuff that I posted is not necessarily like, I guess he really doesn't like that shit, but on the other hand, like, I mean, I've asked sometimes permission, but I think people are pretty cool with it. I think it's a good question and I'm not totally sure, but I mean, I've done it enough that I kind of just feel like whatever. I don't know, I'll take it down if they ask, but from a legal perspective, I don't think there's any issue. I don't think, but yeah, I guess who gives a shit, but like, I think it's more just like, I wouldn't want to offend anybody, you know? But I try to just be very gracious in the videos of just being like, this is who, you know, just talking about how good the person who brought me in on the project is, which is usually true and like, yeah, I don't know. There's not like the spirit of leaking it or trying to like. Well, yeah, it's like, I don't have their stems. So it's like, everything I'm showing is stuff that I did. Because I don't usually, I mean, people ask me if I want stems of the song to work on it and I don't usually want that because a lot of files, like I prefer to just take the song, just literally one track and just add my shit on top. So it's like, I'm not exposing anything that he did, I guess. I think maybe that's how I would distinguish it. It's like, I'm not like, oh, here's what Metro's snare sound like here, you know? It's like, here's the song, you know? And then here's my shit, which I did. So I guess I don't feel as weird about that, yeah, yeah. You mentioned earlier that you were working with Metro and you might send a bunch of tracks and then he pulls 25% of it. And then over time, you essentially learn his taste, right? And I imagine you do that with multiple people. From a creative side, if you're the producer or you're the artist, it makes me wonder, does that create some type of risk for a producer or artist to get stuck in a creative rut if everybody you're working with over time with good will starts to send you things that already fit your current taste and then you start to lose exposure to other. Not a balance to it. I mean, I think I always do stuff that's out of the box of what these artists like, but it's good to just know that. I guess it's like, if I'm giving them four options, at least two of those are gonna be the shit that I know they like. Okay, maybe. Like I just don't. It's also, there's been funny stuff where it's like over the years, not with Metro at all, but like, there's been producers where it's like, they like bring me in and they're like, I want you to go crazy. Like just do the craziest shit you can come up with. And then I do that and they're kind of like, yeah. And then I just do the most normal shit that's what everybody always wants. And they're like, that's crazy. So it's like, I think that sometimes, I think the way actually I kind of think of the string stuff is that like, what I'm bringing to that is already crazy because of the context it's in. You know what I mean? It's crazy to have strings on this type of record. That's what's crazy about it. The strings themselves don't need to be crazy. They just need to be strings. It's the combination, you know what I mean? And so I feel like a lot of times, and I feel like I've told other people who do that kind of work that advice too, where it's like they come in and they're like, time to show off what I can do. And it's like, you realize like, you're not the star here, you know? You're like adding one piece to the puzzle and your job is to just do that piece well, you know? So it's like, I find that I don't, yeah, I don't feel super weird about like just kind of doing the thing that's expected sometimes with that type of shit. And sometimes I'll throw some weird stuff in there, but generally it's the stuff that's expected that kind of gets used for that. And it's what's unexpected is just bringing me in at all. That's the thing that was the interesting choice from them. And then I can just do what I know I do well and just kind of execute, you know? Talk to you, talk to you. You ever feel pushback from you becoming an artist? Maybe from your producer friends or I don't know if you have management or anything like that? Well, I was kind of always, that was always the main thing. I mean, I just kind of got successful at producing first. I guess kind of the same thing as Connie. Like kind of was always trying to be a rapper, you know? It's just, he just got successful at one thing first and that's kind of what happened with me too. So I think I've been pretty clear about that. But I mean, the one thing that kind of sucks, I guess, it's just like, I mean, engagement on social media, all that shit is tricky because it's like, you cultivate a fan base. Like Marshmallow I worked with reposted something one time that we did together. And I got like 5,000 new followers who only want to see shit about Marshmallow, probably, you know what I mean? And like you hope that you pull a couple of those into real fans, but essentially, like if they don't understand what they're looking at, they don't react and then Instagram never shows them your shit again. I didn't think about that. So I have a lot of like dead weight followers. If like if you look at my engagement, I mean everyone's engagement sucks right now, but like it looks like it's like, oh, did you like pay for followers? It's like, no, these are just people who like want me to post about the Utopia album or something and don't care, you know? And so I think that part can be kind of frustrating but I just decided I don't give a shit and I just try to really focus on the people, especially in the DMs, like I would get a lot of DMs that are like, you know, and I like supporting aspiring producers and stuff like that but people asking for advice who are themselves musicians who obviously found me because of the work I've done on other records and shit like that. And I try to be responsive to that but I've tried to really like flag the messages that I get from people who are just fans, who came to the show, who like a lyric of mine or whatever and just make sure I respond to those people and just kind of slowly like convert the algorithm to favoring that audience and just build, you know, that. That's crazy, I never thought about that. The problem is a little bit more unique than I thought because there's already the path of producer to artist but like you said on social media, it's not just, hey, I'm a producer. I produce Metro, with Metro, I produce with Marshmallow and now those are two different fan bases and sounds let alone your unique sound as an artist when you start to push that. So you just got a whole kitchen sink and shit on your social media. It's weird, I mean, I've also just been someone who like does a wide range of shit and like I take pride in the fact that I'm on like a lot of different genres of stuff as a producer and that I'm kind of everywhere and people are always like, dude, how are you on everything? Like you're on the R&B shit, you're on the indie shit, you're on the rap shit, you're on the pop shit. It's like what? And I like that. But I think as a producer, artist or whatever it would probably be more efficient to just come up with a certain crew of people producing for them and then just also putting myself on the wreck, you know, and then like kind of come up with them that way. Whereas it's like I have these sort of like not very strong relationships with a lot of artists that I've worked with that mostly aren't gonna help my artist stuff at all. They pay the bills, they get me more producer work which pays the bills. But it's not like, like there's no real upside for me as an artist to having another cut with like, well, say that Jessica went example. It's like that, you know, that pop star chick. Like that's, that doesn't, like she, I mean, I guess she could take me on tour with her. Maybe that would make sense. But for the most part, she's just in a different lane. And so it's not like, yeah, like that, it's just, it's more like just the time I commit to that stuff doesn't necessarily help me as an artist really in any direct way other than just getting me paid, I guess. Which I can use to do other stuff, but yeah. So I try to minimize it. And you mentioned going on tour earlier on. What, what is that like being an opening at and trying to grab those, you know, those fans for yourself? Does it even work in your opinion? I think so. I mean, if they come up after me and tell me that, you know, I get a lot of like, that was the best opening act I've ever seen because I go all out for my shit. So that feels good. I like that those people, you know, they follow me. They buy the t-shirt. I think if they've done all that, they're probably converted. The most obvious way I saw that the 070 Shake tour paid off was that on the tab with like the artists, your fans also like on Spotify, like we hadn't been on each other's list at all. And after that tour, she was the number one person on mine and I was the number one person on hers too. So it's like, that's only, there's no other explanation. Like she was featured on a song on my album, but it's like the lowest streaming song on the album because it's just like an interlude and shit. Like the only explanation is that that many people saw us on tour that it literally the entire algorithm shifted just based off of that and that those people started listening to the music on Spotify. So that felt pretty legit to me, you know? But I don't think you can get huge just-off opening for people. Like it makes you a real thing for people who see you and then if they see your song, maybe, they connect the dots and it's like, oh yeah, I saw that dude on the Shake Tour. You know, he's got this song I love, she's on the album. You know, it's like, but I think it adds to that. Yeah, it's not gonna like in the end, like everything blows up on the internet. There's no other way to do it. You said you lose money when you do shows, usually when you open up. Why is that? Well, I have live strings on every show and they have to get paid. So usually the fees I'm getting for opening or whatever where I don't fee advanced, I don't know what they call it. That usually basically just covers that, you know? And maybe a little bit of whatever I'm paying, like a playback sound type person. And then I spend some money. If it's a tour, then it's the traveling. If we're staying at Airbnbs, it's that. Being on the bus is way cheaper because you don't have to pay for anyone to drive. You don't have to rent a car and you don't have to pay for hotels, you know? But if you're like driving yourself in a crew around the country following a bus, which is what we did on the Shake Tour, then, I mean, yeah, it just adds up. You're trying to feed everybody, even in you got to pay everyone for their time. So it's just, yeah, you make some of it back on merch sales, but yeah, it's an investment for sure. What about your own personal shows? You said you wanted to do some personal shows in L.A. to control the experience more. Yeah. What does the experience of Johan Lennox look like in your mind? I mean, I'm working on this concept. I did a couple of them. I did one last year. I think you might have come to that. I can't remember. And then I did one this year and I'm calling it world's burning. And it's just like, there's a lot of shit going on in the world, but this is our space, you know, creative people, artistic people to just fucking hang out, get drunk. You know, I have like a string quartet. I make cocktails. I'm obsessed with it. Like mixing drinks is like a big hobby of mine. And like really good shit. So I do that, have some musical performances, have some DJs, you know, like just, and then in a space that's like immersive, like I'm still working on that aspect of it. So really get it where I want, but just like in a room that feels like you've left the planet for like this evening and you're just kind of in a different area. So I always loved like immersive theater. I've always loved like haunted houses, like all that type of shit, you know, escape rooms, whatever it is. Like I just think that that theatrical shit is cool. And it's a way to show off maybe what the headline tour would look like once I get there, but on a scale that I can kind of do it and have like, you know, the people that I work with can come see it. And then a lot of random people that are fans of whatever in LA can come see it. It just feels more, because it's like when you open up for somebody on a tour, or even if you're a headliner on a tour, you got to transport all that shit. You got to pay for how that gets set up every night. You know, to totally reimagine the stage, bring your own lighting designer. Like it's very hard to do that. But in a space in LA where I can just do it, I think I'll be able to really show like the full vision, I think. Yeah, I like the concept of like creating shows that people come to see. Like it's something like that. I feel like fits in that box, right? I was working on this festival years ago before I even started working with artists. And that was one of the like concepts that I left with where I felt like theatrical, like really deep immersive experiences would be something that would be cool for more people to do. And now instead of Yohan going across the world, it just becomes so lit and you hype it up so well. Then people, even if they don't even know you too well, the experience in general would look so cool, like people would come to see you. 100%. And a lot of that's just like, you invite certain people, you make it really Instagram friendly. And suddenly it's like, oh, this is like some shit I should have gone to. And I think that happened a little bit with the last one, but I'm gonna really build that up. And then eventually like maybe just take that on tour or it's like every show you do on tour, you have an after party that's that thing or the show itself, you just kind of build the stage set up to kind of reflect that world. Or at least like one off pop-ups like do it in LA, but also do it in New York, do it in Boston, do it in Chicago, Atlanta, you know. More like a moving new museum exhibit, how they do those. Totally. Yeah. Hell yeah. How do you see your community, the Yohan Lennox community that you wanna build out? I mean, I'm glad that there's this like, a lot of like producers and artists and stuff in it. I think visual artists too. You know, just people that are creative starting with them, but I think it's just people who want something that's different and that's kind of crazy and like not just, it's not just gonna be like, oh, I heard that one song. It's gonna be people who are like in for the whole world that I'm trying to create visually, sonically, the values, you know, the story. I definitely think we have an era of like, people who are kind of lonely, people who are very disconnected. The world is not feeling that like optimistic, just looking in the future about a lot of shit. And I'm not trying to solve that, but I think at least just providing a space where people can at least like, I don't know, cope with it or at least just sort of, sometimes it's like laughing about it too, you know, just like, fuck it, you know? One last question before we get out of here. I would love to know your perspective on what do you think when you hear the term no labels necessary? I mean, it definitely is like a thing that I think about a lot or an idea that I think about a lot, which is just like, there's really no path for what I wanna do because no one's ever done what I wanna do to show a classical especially as an end goal, maybe. And it can be easy to, I think it's good to come up with a community. Obviously a lot of artists do that. And I think that is a huge way that a lot of music gets successful is that like, a group of people are pushing it and then their fans, you know, kind of rally around all of them. Usually there's like one or two that really break out of that and go all the way with it. But once you look at people that kind of got to the top, there's really like no path that's consistent. Like not a single person that didn't have some very weird path, you know? And so I think it's good to just not, yeah, like be concerned so much about how it's labeled or how it's packaged or where it fits. I think some of that is helpful. Like it's good to just understand like what the lanes even are. But, and I maybe could be better at that, but it's just like, in the end, I'm just doing my own fucking thing and like, I don't know, I'm just trying to figure out, like you look like maybe I could take a little bit of that. Maybe I could learn a little bit from here, but there's really no like clear kind of path or brand or label that is like gonna, I mean, I'm speaking like that way. Like labels like, yeah, I guess it also has the literal meaning of like a label. No, it's a double, a triple on Tondra, whatever you want to call it. I was on a label for a minute. I had to did a couple of P's under Island Records and that was kind of interesting. And then these days I do, I'm independent through a district called one RPM. And I would say they've been just as good, if not better in some ways. Like it's just budgets are kind of the same, honestly, as major label, at least for me, like been able to figure that part out. My manager's really good at just explaining the vision to places and helping them understand why they should invest in me. And like, I definitely don't think just since I'm talking about it now, like the actual labels are necessary either. Like I just, everyone knows that now, but maybe at the very end of the path, you want to get something just blasted all over top 40 radio. That's where that comes in. But up until that point, like it's just you and your team, I think building whether you're signed or not. And I don't think there's anything wrong with signing, but if you don't need to, why bother? I think, yeah. I'll say that's one of my favorite answers to that question so far, because although there is the obvious comparison that most people will assume because we're in music, about music labels, record labels, the heart of the statement is actually for us a lot more what you said about no specific path and that entire spiel right there. So man, appreciate you having you, I mean, appreciate you hopping on man, dropping your wisdom, your experience. I think people are gonna get a lot of value out of it. Everybody, this is yet another episode of No Labels Necessary podcast. I'm Brand Man Sean. And I'm Corey. I'm Yohan Lennox. And yeah, thank you. Are we out? Peace. Appreciate you for watching. If you like content like this, you'll love seeing our music marketing strategies that we use as an agency to actually blow up artists to millions and even billions of streams that are available for free at nolabelsnecessary.com and the cool part about it that's gonna really make you love it is we don't have to be all entertaining and add all this fluff just to get some views that we do on YouTube. We get straight to the information. There's play by play in courses that give you a breakdown of every step that you should do to get success. And you have the ability to have communication with us. We get on live talks, a lot of cool things for members and it's free just to hop in. So check it out right now at nolabelsnecessary.com.