 Welcome into the original gangsters podcast. I am your host Scott Bernstein along with my co-host partner in crime the doctor Jimmy Bucci Lotto everyone JB and we got been Producing us as as always and Thank you, Ben. We haven't been in studio together. We're in studio now for the first time in a couple weeks and we got a great episode for you There was a Wrongful death lawsuit that had been in the court system out in New Jersey for the last 11 years that was tied to allegations of police corruption and a mob hit from 2007 so we're going to discuss You know come from top to bottom What led to this mob hit? It's the murder of Frankie Ligano who was a Lucchese soldier who was murdered in the spring of 2007 and his family Five years later brought a wrongful death lawsuit against Bergen County, New Jersey against their prosecutor's office and At the time was the the head of the detective bureau there And alleged in this lawsuit that Bergen County leaked The fact that Ligano was a cooperator with the state police, New Jersey At that time he was under indictment for a case that was known as operation Jersey boys Which we'll get into and was a state case, but took down I think three or four different crime families in New Jersey and the The lawsuit said that Detectives in Bergen County or a detective in Bergen County was angered by this cooperation and leaked The the knowledge of the cooperation to the Lucchese and shortly thereafter Frankie Ligano was gunned down in broad daylight in front of his civil diner in East Brunswick, New Jersey and We've talked about it on here before there has not been for a an American mafia that was so murderous for so long There's there was kind of a point after The turn of the century 9-11 Where murder really became more of a last resort measure and there's probably only been You know less than 20 murders in in all of the United States You know mafia families You know in the last 25 years, I would say less than one a year and that might even be Probably the least amount of bloodshed right and I and I'm me saying 20 might be overshooting it It might be more like 10, you know an interesting. That's even a trend in Sicily. Yeah, not in Galabria are Not believe different but in Cozanostra Sicily in here. It's probably the least amount of bloodshed. We've seen ever in those In that culture. So this was even though it happened 16 years ago. It's one of the more recent New York mob murders and a federal judge in New Jersey Tossed the wrongful death lawsuit as of the last couple weeks it was like I said, it was in the court system for 11 years and As of right now, there's no more litigation and Bergen County has been Exonerated and the former head detective in Bergen County a guy named Mike Mordaga who Now is the police chief of Hackensack, New Jersey I would He had a big cloud hanging over his head these last 10 plus years And and I'm sure that he feels like a giant weight has been lifted off his shoulders He's been exonerated at least in in terms of this wrongful death lawsuit So, you know, let's let's unpack it Jimmy. Do you have any initial initial thoughts? Yeah, it's I think it's a fascinating story because it ties into Allegations of police corruption we have these interesting examples of Partnerships between Kosanostra families and other crime groups specifically the Bloods Street gang and You have an unsolved murder There's just a lot of different angles here I think it's a really interesting story and it ends up tying into big names Maddie Madonna Like there's just a lot of moving the perna crew in New Jersey, right? So it's it's pretty exciting Story, I'm not saying it's exciting that someone was killed, but I'm just saying it's just compelling It's it's a riveting narrative that we're hoping to unsplit for you over the next hour or so. Yeah, so you want to start with like Say let's talk about who Frankie Lagana was unpack that so Frankie Lagana was a I would you know Categorize him as a Wall Street gangster He was an outlier in the sense that he was a member of organized crime with not just a college education But an Ivy League. Yeah college education had a had a degree in economics from Columbia And he was a guy that was an earner Was very diversified in his holdings He was a you know a boardroom good fella that knew his way around white collar rackets Wasn't the type of guy that was going to be Utilized by the Lucchese's for muscle work. I Know he had guys that did muscle work for him. There was I think there was some Some testimony in a case after he passed one of his former and non mafia member who owned like a construction company said in his testimony that yeah Frank, you know, I would go to Frankie Lagana and Frankie Lagana had people that were Loyal to him that would handle my muscle or handle our muscle Yeah, the any of our adversaries that needed to be put in line. We'd go to Frankie Lagana. Lagana would go to his his thugs or whatever so you know just Based on some people I've spoken to and going through court files and FBI records. It looks like Lagana was close Early on in his rise an organized crime to little Al Diarco who was the acting boss of the Luccheses and Eventually flipped and entered witness protection and We both found it interesting that what sent Al Diarco into the arms of the government was a meeting in 1991 in Manhattan at the Kimberly Hotel, which was I don't know if it's still around but at the time it was a luxury hotel and Diarco was going to meet with members of the Luccheses crime family and Frank Lagana was his driver. I guess he accompanied Diarco to this This very famous I guess now meeting in 1991 that Al Diarco fled from like bolted out the door after like five minutes of being in the room Because he fought for it. It was a hit. He thought it was a hit And then I don't know I don't know I wish I could you know give you more insight into that Did Lagana get his button in the 80s to get into the 90s, but we know by the early 2000s. He's a made guy and He is overseeing in addition to You know all the rackets he was running he got caught up in a in a state Prosecution known as Operation Jersey Boys Which focused on a gambling and loan sharking ring right outside of the metal ends so East Rutherford, New Jersey that you know the the iconic sports venue with New York Giants New York Death's play There was a bar down the street an Italian Cafe restaurant bar type thing Roma cafe or something it might have been here remember but and it was it was like ground zero for for this operation and in this Particular operation included like for crime three or four crime families. I know the the lead Defendant in the case was Joe the Eagle Gato who was the capo for the Genovese in Jersey His his dad was streaky Gato who ran the New Jersey Genovese Rackets for for quite a while But what Ghana was one of the headlining defendants in this case that eventually was dropped in 0405 because of some The The judge who was at the judge who ordered the wiretap didn't have wasn't privy to certain information There was some Case eventually unraveled right, but this was we should be clear on the timeline It didn't unravel until after Lugano was murdered So it started to unravel. I believe in the late 2000s or in the Case came down to 0405. It didn't unravel. I don't think it's like 0809 So when Lugano was killed in 07 that case was still You know a danger to people at least in their mind. It was hanging over a lot of people's heads Yeah, it was some kind of technicality. It was prosecutorial misconduct Based on stuff that should have been shared that wasn't shared right like you're saying wiretaps that were authorized But but weren't Provided in the discovery. So I think even even some of the guys who were accepting pleas they were All those charges were dropping nobody and there was a case that I I brought down dozens of wise guys Nobody did jail time. No, right, right. That's what the whole case was a was a was botched. Yes But we did but that wasn't public knowledge In the first couple years after the question it hadn't transpired or at least it hadn't been, you know red flag That's something that was gonna unravel the case. So Case comes down and I think it was the end of 04 it was yeah And for you know for two years Lugano is Has it has this state racketeering case hanging over his head and At some point in those couple years, I think pretty early on He cuts a cooperation deal with the state police Now according to the wrongful death lawsuit Before he cuts this deal with the state police He had some form of relationship with Mike Mordaga who was the head of the detective bureau at in Bergen County The lawsuit claims that they were good friends business associates that they vacationed together Mordaga denied it I Think there was some evidence some wiretaps and whatnot that pointed to the fact that they did have some form of relationship You know from a naked eye and what the wrongful death suit was alleging Was that Mordaga was worried when Lugano got busted in operation Jersey Boys That Mordaga was worried that if Lugano cooperated He would be outed as a mob associate or or someone that was crossing Boundary as a member of law enforcement, right? He requested That Lugano go to a specific attorney and Lugano told him I'm not gonna go to that attorney. I'm gonna go to this other attorney and this other attorney I guess was known for cutting deals with the government This upset Mordaga. I think there were a couple according to the lawsuit. There were a couple dinner meetings Well, I got no had to lay out to Mordaga that I'm not gonna do what you're asking me to do I'm doing this. I don't know if this meant that he told him that he was cooperating with The state police or if he just told me wasn't gonna use the attorney that he was Requesting according to the the family's allegations again, which that suit was dismissed but that The the cop promised him this attorney can make this all go away And there's also allegations on top of those allegations that Mordaga was in some form of racket with Lugano where they were taking kickbacks from Referrals to certain attorneys, right? And so they would get a cut of the settlement. Yeah Whatever that was ends up being resolved those cases are resolved. Yeah, and then there I think there was also an allegation and the family's Lawsuit that Lugano used to lend him money loan him money, right? And Frank Likano in 2005 begins cooperating with with the state police specifically a guy named Jim Sweeney or James Sweeney and The lawsuit alleges that in the months leading up to Lugano's murder That there was a leak from Either the prosecutor or the police department Directly to the Luccheses now. Let's be very clear that there's There are no details behind these allegations. It's a lot of assumptions Based on a lot of rumors and innuendo So it's something that looks like It looks smoky But I don't see I don't see a fire there I don't see a 5-1. Yeah, and the family wanted to get their hands on these sealed documents And they did and I they were sort of the sort of presumption that the smoking gun would be in those sealed documents But it doesn't seem like yeah, that's true because it was ultimately dismissed. So I mean whatever more dago was doing and The lawsuit was thrown out so More daggers clean. I mean, I don't think You can make allegations or you can sit here and play the what-if game and I think game and I was told game But according to the the court of law in New Jersey, Mordaga is clean and none of these allegations were true But I think you can have a situation where let's just for argument's sake Say that there was some illicit relationship between Lugano and Mordaga. That doesn't mean That Mordaga had something to do with Lugano's murder and even if there was some type of illicit behavior going on the statute of limitations are well past For that for that. Yeah Well, I think it I mean it definitely seems to me that it's possible that the lukeases had Some kind of inside information because the timing of the execution is very suspicious But where that infer intel came from we don't we don't know at least at least this angle is Put the rest at least, you know in the court system. So let's talk about the hit Well, let's first talk about that in Operation Jersey boys the ultimately doomed operation Jersey boy the state police and the attorney general of New Jersey put out a Pyramid chart with how the Money and power in that conspiracy between all those crime families flowed and in that Pyramid chart Lugano was the the point man for the Lucchese crime family and then right underneath Frankie Lugano was little Joe Perna and You know back in in the in the early 2000s late 90s Little Joe Perna wasn't anywhere near as big of a deal as he is now and his family is now the pernas according to the the government and according to guilty verdicts in a subsequent state racketeering case called operation heat The pernos are the new the new Jersey Lucchese crew and it's run by little Joe Perna's dad a Big Ralph Perna was identified as a captain. He's a cap. He's a cop. He runs All he runs all of Lucchese's Jersey rackets and it's a big part. It's a big family with There's two sets of Joe and John pernas, but just to be clear we're gonna be taught today tonight today We're just talking about Ralph Perna's sons a little Joe and John. Are they called Johnny boy? and According to operation Jersey boys Little Joe Perna was the person that was responsible for collecting All the debts for the Lucchese's Part of the conspiracy with this these Gambling and loan sharking rackets being run out of East Rutherford and these guys Have that from what I understand talking to some sources that trifecta that you talk about earners Feared tough guys and blow up the people and people like them So they're it's a pretty formidable crew. We're talking. Yeah, so little Joe Perna's name You know for me I First started paying attention to him when he was spending a lot of time with skinny Joey Merlino the boss of the Philadelphia mafia and government claims that the pernas are The Merlino cruise Contact point for the Lucchese crime family in general but just the they're the Jersey guys, but if The according to the government of the Philadelphia mob wants to get word to Lucchese administrators They go through the pernas make sense. This is not to derail us too much is Scarfield jr. Part of the yes part of that same crew. Oh, that's what I thought. Yeah, and I heard I don't know Exactly, you know, we're gonna get into this in a second. There was a making ceremony In 2007 that we're gonna talk about and Nikki scarf would you knew might have been there, right? Not that he was made there, but right have participated as a made member in inducting new made men Which is just I get not to derail this. Yeah, but as another layer of Interest here because he has a complex relationship with skinny Joe Merlino in the Philadelphia Well, Nicky's car for junior had to leave the Philadelphia crime family after his dad went to prison And if you wanted to stay in the mob, which he did He was forced to go to New York and get made by the Lucches, right? And then and then Nicky scurfo was trying to hatch this yeah This hairbreak his hair brain scheme in the in the two late 2000s where little Nicky was sorry Nicky jr. Was fleece in a bank for millions of dollars that little Nicky in prison thought that he was gonna be able to bribe his way back into into the boss's seat from prison when he was like in his 80s dying and thought he could install his son as the Hairbrained is is an under arrest is a You know, it doesn't do Justice to how the lunacy that was that that plan very realistic So but but anyhow, there's just again a lot of moving targets But but so Logano was tied to Perna was tied to the Perna crew in Operation Jersey Boys that he reported to Ralph Perna and that Little Joe was I don't want to say an errand boy because that's being disrespectful to little Joe but that little Joe was doing a lot of the legwork for Logano in that Racket in run out of East Rutherford is probably one of those guys that's that earlier person was referring to yeah I don't need something done. Yeah, he probably would go to so at this point in time a joy little Joe Perna would have been in his thirties and When Frankie Legano is murdered the feds immediately start looking at the furnace and I believe even though it's a Officially an inactive investigation. I'm told that in the point in the Fed file When it comes to this homicide the perna crew are considered the top suspects which you know as we understand mafia protocol and If something's going wrong in your crew Not very often Do you look to you know outsource? No the house cleaning you're kind of Expected to do your own housekeeping. Yeah, and they and they're the ones in proximity to the person So it's also more practical. So that's again. It's all ledgers been no charges Frank Legano owned the Seville diner, which I guess I'm not from East Brunswick, but I Heard it's it's kind of a well it's been closed for a couple years. It's supposed to reopen this spring actually but It was like a staple right on I think route 18 and Was like there for Before Frank Legano bought it. It was something that was a very popular Spot to go, you know get a burger and fries Legano purchased a piece of it. I think in 0405 And He's murdered in broad daylight on a crowded thoroughfare in the parking lot of his own diner He shot once in the back of the head as he gets out of his BMW Yeah, it's pretty Imagine early pretty brazen and he wasn't found for like three or four hours. I didn't he was just like lying In the parking lot dead and I think one of his family members came out a couple of your hours later And oh was that I wonder if he was parked in back or something. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know for sure It's definitely a high profile Execution So I'm gonna throw one thing out there and then I'm gonna I'm gonna make a point and I'm gonna throw to Jimmy I Don't believe in coincidences In studying this type of stuff So, you know, you make of it what you want almost six months to the day of this murder the perna boys Joey Perna and Johnny Perna according to The operation heat case that came a couple years later Were inducted into the Lucchese crime family in Tom's River. I believe at Johnny Perna's house The state police were running surveillance and they and then were able to I think confirm from from a confidential informant that in November of 2007 I think it was like November 8th or November 10th the perna boys were Got their button were made into the Lucchese crime family and that Maddie Madonna who was the godfather of the Lucchese at that time What I find interesting about this is Maddie Madonna came to them Maddie Madonna came to Tom's River, New Jersey to induct the pernas. Yeah, it wasn't the pernas going to New York To be made by Maddie and the Lucchese administration. It shows you how much respect the pernas. Yeah Family has and I think that that's tied to the fact that Not only from talking the street sources, but that it's also in the documentation that they were prolific earners Yeah, and I want to point out some things that were in the operation heat and eventually we're gonna tie operation heat What what what this might have to do with the murder? We don't know for sure, but it might have but I was I was Stupified to read how much money this gambling ring That they were generating for those out there that still think oh the mafia if if they're even left They're running nickel and dime card games backdoor card games. This is this is from the New Jersey Attorney General's Prosecution of these guys Over a billion dollars. No over a billion dollars. This gambling ring was was generating I mean that that is for multiple crime families that were working in conjunction with each other Yeah, I mean you don't hear about that kind of cash other than drugs. Yeah these days. So and it was it was a it was a very sophisticated online Gambling they had it something like offshore something running through Costa Rica. I haven't been in the gambling game a long time So I don't matter. I'm gonna try to explain how what when I used to gamble there were no fucking apps or What to the dude in your neighborhood? I don't I don't even fight you know me. I never have I've never placed a bet I'm embarrassed to say that. Yeah, I don't I've been with people where I'm like I want to bet something and then they'll place the bet for me online themselves Yeah, I don't I have never actually placed the bet. I don't know how it works either. So I admit I'm ignorant here But like Jimmy I used to be a big better my younger days younger. Yeah, and so The 2.2 billion dollars in sport wagers in just 15 months. Yeah, that's the kind of scuttle We're talking about here So in that context it makes sense that Manny Madonna would go out of his way to induct these guys because That's some serious cash that they're generating for and the really there they're and I don't know the Specific logistics of how they came upon the making ceremony, but you know, I mean They've got to be the pernose and Manny Madonna. I guess it doesn't matter because they're all in jail now anyway but you almost got to be saying to yourself like We're lucky that they didn't have a bug in there. We're lucky that we didn't have Someone that was recording this if the cops are literally sitting outside taking photos In during your making ceremony and the boss from New York City and his conciliary Joe DeNapoli who I'll give us I'll give up shameless plug to our most recent Episode why did a solo the class of 23? We're talking about all the New York mobsters that are filtering out a prison you know Joe Joe D just came out of prison a couple weeks ago, but he was Maddie Madonna has never come out of prison, but he was there at that making ceremony helped conduct it with Maddie Yeah, but he the according to this he's one of the guys that was getting that This is who they're kicking up to you right right so I I Just have a very difficult time believing that the timing of that making ceremony had nothing to do with the legato head It just seems too Convenient well, there's another interesting element here that that may tie into that which is this Investigation operation heat so one thing is was I mentioned I was really I Found it really striking in terms of how much money this this gambling ring was generating But also that they were working with another prominent criminal or so. Yeah, so this is the other Italian crime family So the operation heat which came after Jersey boys They're working with the bloods then the nine Trey gangsters, which is a offshoot of the Either the United Blood network or sorry United Blood Nation or the Bloods in LA. It's all they're all kind of cousins to each other Yeah, so That that comes out in this in this case a lot of wiretaps Yeah, a lot of conversations between Joey and Johnny Perna and the boss of the nine Trey gangsters Edwin E-money spears right about Extortion about collecting gambling debts Things like that and there's even An example where they ask was it the so what was E money who was what was his he's the he was the boss general He's five-star general. Yeah, and the boss of the New Jersey nine Trey So so the pernas were asking him to lay off So there was there was an associate of the Lucchese's that owed a debt and one of the nine Trey gangsters Underneath E money spears was pressing this associate to pay the debt the associate was ignoring it and I think there might even been some Vandal vandalizing of property and Perna asked spears if he could get his associate to forgive the debt and and stop pressing the Lucchese associate and he was gleeful in Entalling in Perna that that he would take care of that favor for him. Yeah in those wiretaps It's very very clear that Edwin spears is enamored by having any type of contact any type of Business relationship with the mob or the pernas. Yeah, I mean there was one of the we were talking off air. Yeah One of the snippets was was spears telling Joe Perna I want you guys to feel me the way I feel you Like I feel you guys like you're my you know Brother from another mother and I recognize everything you do and I I'm down with everything you're doing I love your vibe. I want you guys to love our vibe Yeah, he seems enthusiastic about this Relationship and he's bragging saying you know when the the question of the debt came up He's saying oh, you could say my name and any street on the East Coast everybody's gonna know who I am and You're all right, and I can I can I think he said I can have anybody Pushed or something. Yeah, I don't know if that was a reference to murder or a reference to You know Muscleing someone or getting someone to stop muscling Right, so something else that comes up in the in the in these this case from the Attorney General in the state of New Jersey is not only where they had this relationship in terms of collecting debts and extortion but also Connections between the lukeases and bloods inside the prison. They weren't they were they had a whole giant smuggling operation Going on where drugs any type of contraband. Yeah was going Right and they were using Edwin Spears's brother, baby D I think his name is Darryl, but excuse me if it's not but Some first name that starts with the D D Spears aka baby D was their guy that was the actual like Boots on the ground getting the stuff into the prisons. Yeah, so I think he was locked up There seems to be this Lucrative Mutually beneficial relationship between the lukeases and the bloods so now What does this have to do with what we start off with some of your reporting? How does this connect back to the legato first thing so first from from my sources and getting Privy to some internal documentation that I was fed back in January In the investigation First they started looking at the Pernos specifically Joe and Johnny Perna At some point they pivoted to Looking at the nine trade gangsters as possibly be being contracted or farmed or the little case He's farmed out the hit to the nine trade gangsters Again, let's be very clear. There's been no Charges filed in this. I don't think there will ever be charges filed in this the case has been pretty much Sunsetted put to bed after all this Corruption or allegations of corruption the mis the prosecutorial misconduct I heard that the the higher ups in in New Jersey both federal and state kind of just You know, bobble up the investigation part of the problem I Sorry to derail this but something we forgot to mention is one of the major challenges was one of the major Investigators that was backing up the family's Allegation got in trouble. He had his own ethical lapses. And so that I mean he died okay to that He died of cancer in 2011. No, I think it was 2000. Oh, was it a longer? Okay? Um, but he was making allegations again, yeah, we we missed this part, but just to fill in some gaps here in the Laws through the the Logano family filed as well as a lawsuit that Sweeney filed before we got before he died He was alleging that he had uncovered Corruption within Bergen County That he was trying to out as part of an as part of his investigation into what happened to Logano because he was Logano's Operator, right handler, right and that when he got, you know, too close To to find out what he wanted to find out. He was fired. That's that's him saying that right? Yeah, so that's where we yeah We should have cleared that up earlier the the allegation that someone tipped off the luke's. He says coming from him coming from the state investigator, right Jim Sweeney who was the one to flip Logano, I wonder if a It Maybe this is out there to be found and I just didn't see it But I wonder if Logano was already cooperating with Bergen County Yeah, or did or did Logano's first piece of cooperation come from Sweeney in the New Jersey State Police. I don't know. Yeah but I I'd have to assume that if the allegations from the Logano family are true And there was some type of illicit relationship between Logano and Mordega that Wouldn't have Mordega been using him in Some capacity to to glean intelligence Yeah, wouldn't that have been beneficial to his Whether or not he was doing business with a guy outside of the police department or not. Yeah Like yeah, that's neither here nor there, but but they had at least one informant Told investigators that The Logano hit was farmed out to the 9-tray gangsters out of Newark or that in a And I don't know where Spears was based out of or not and That Lucchese bosses were upset with how The murder was carried out, right Broad daylight at his own restaurant in a very very like a very populated street Right off the express where it was like a lot of people driving by Yeah, um, I Talked to one guy Who's an investigator? in that area That Didn't think it's splits. I've talked to people that have said It ignored the nitrate gangsters this came from the Luccheses, right? But then I've had other people tell me and these are people that are like in the know like with Knowledge of the investigation then I've had another person telling me If you know the pernas and you know Maddie Madonna and you know the way the Luccheses do things There's no way that the Luccheses would have pulled this off the way it was pulled off. It's a broad daylight. Yeah Yeah, so again, and this is just talking to people that were involved in the investigation Combing over court records and and FBI intelligence memos and New Jersey State police documents There's definitely a relationship between the two groups, but I want to clarify again that Confidential informant is the one who right this allegation. I'm not Scott Bernstein Going the bloods killed Frank Lagana cause I saw that online the other day They're like Scott Bernstein is telling everyone that the bloods were responsible for the Frank Lagana bit I'm like, no, that's not what I reported. I reported that the investigators Investigated a tip that said that this happened and that nothing came of it, right, right? So People that are on Social media You know they're just mischaracterized When when there's a especially a mob hit but any murder you're gonna talk to Dozens of people they're all gonna give you different theories different beliefs some are gonna give you I heard this That doesn't mean That what they heard even if they heard it from a good person Yeah, that might be in the know that doesn't mean that that's what happened. Yeah Yeah, I mean we don't we obviously we don't know I mean Talking to some people One one idea is that Today because of because of what you're describing with the trying to be insulated that It seems that this could be likely to farm something out like that today because the Italians are trying to distance themselves But that going back to 2007 May have been earlier in the game where the Italians may not have been as cautious about Wacking a guy in broad daylight, which which is to the argument that this was an internal thing the Lucchese did it There's there's no need to farm this out. But obviously that you know, it's all speculative We don't we don't know right now It seems like you're right that there's you're not gonna see any charges I mean I talked I talked to a guy that was that was a part of this investigation He said this thing is bottled up tight and nobody's going back to look at it And we thought we had some early leads that that could have led us to solving this it one guy That same guy said to me. Hey, man. If if we were confident enough in this Part of the story about whether be the pernose or the nine-trade gangsters it would have dropped in operation heat Sure, of course, right as many years after the right. Yeah, right. So I think it was five years five years later Or five years after operation Jersey boys, I think it was three years after Three or three or four years after the murder. It was to 2015. So no 15. I thought 15 is when they copped Yeah, that's when they play when this case dropped in 2010. Yeah Yeah, so that was a few years earlier. Yeah So to me the biggest takeaway and I'm not trying to be insensitive because obviously You know, someone gets killed. It's tragic. But to me what I found the most fascinating the allegations of potential misconduct by criminal justice system the amount of cash that this Cambly I still can't get over that the amount of money they were bringing in and this really intriguing Relationship they have with the bloods whether or not they were involved in that murder or not doesn't change the fact that clearly It's been established. They have a working Yeah relationship and each other and as I'm just this is just crystallizing my head now as we're talking about it I mean Ligano was an earner. Yeah, I mean Ligano was a big earner and Just again Knowing history and knowing the way that that things are done in in organized crime It takes a lot to kill an earner, of course Because the envelope dries up immediately right speaks so I I Think of that when I think of the decision that was made by the Lucchese crime family To murder Ligano, that's what I believe. I also should point out that I had a source who I Trust as knowledgeable And this is not the gospel. This is a theory but I will give it The time of day and I want to throw it out to you and get what you what you think This guy told me He's not a member of law enforcement. He's a kind of a street guy in New Jersey said He thinks there's a small chance that this had nothing to do with organized crime that within the Diner culture in New Jersey in New York in Maryland There are there's a lot of shadiness that goes on and that there have been you know a handful of situations where one co-owner of a diner kills another co-owner of the diner because of Beats within the business And someone said to me that they wouldn't have been shocked not saying that they've they think this happened But it's a possibility This might have come from other owners because he wasn't the sole owner of of the civil diner Yeah, this might have came from a co-owner and that he was in a business beef and that they This is another part of the theory. That's amazing. It's interesting that they knowing that the news had already filtered out to the street that Lugano was a Cooperator that they felt comfortable doing it not or Going on the theory that they wouldn't have to face retribution, right that they would actually be doing a favor Right to look at it investigators would just assume. Yeah, it was an Italian, right? It was just an Italian thing Well, I mean, I would say this I don't know any I didn't talk to that person But this guy's involved in all sorts of white collar dirty dealing entanglements There's any number of people that had it in for him That may not have been directly connected to organized crime He's dealing with some Perhaps ethically challenged law enforcement members. There's there's there's any number of Kind of hot water this guy to use a horrible cliche how this guy could have found himself in He's talking to people. I wanted to put that theory out there I think it's it's there's some merit to it potential merit to at least to discuss. Yeah, of course. Yeah So again, let's let's fast forward now to operation heat so I think three years or four years after Frankie legano is murdered and Three or four years after Joey and Johnny Perna Get inducted into the Luccheses They are headline defendants along with their dad Ralph along with Maddie Madonna along with Joe D are Are the marquee defendants in operation heat? Now it turned out to be the least of Maddie Madonna and Maddie Madonna's problems Because as this case was being adjudicated He orders the murder of Michael Meldisch who was a former very close friend of his turned I Don't want to say rival, but they had a falling out in their friendship Meldisch was former, you know, East Harlem purple gang Crew leader in the in the 70s, you know By the time he hit the 2000s Maddie Madonna's who at that time was also kind of a purple gang affiliate He's the boss of the casey's Michael Meldisch is a top earnings associate and collector for for Madonna And they they ran into a beef over money that was Ode to Madonna that Meldisch didn't feel like he needed to pay back and then there was a woman that was involved in So yeah, so Meldisch is ordered murdered by many Madonna. He's killed I think in 2013 and then by 17 The federal case hits right after I think he pleads guilty to operation heat The federal case hits with John Pinesi who was the soldier of the Lucchese's who? Became a cooperator when he thought they were gonna kill him and he he takes down the whole administration Maddie Stevie Wonder and Jody Let me ask you something. I know we're not much time we have left but so Going back to Diarco Musso and Casso pretty much wipe out the whole Jersey casey crew in that would that have been the 90s late 80s late 80s, okay because Diarco took over for gas pipe and Vic in like 88 or 89 when they had to go on the run Okay, right. Yeah, because he flips in what 91 91. I think he was acting boss for two years So it's interesting that the Jersey crew Robotic The part of comeback here, right the partners weren't running the Jersey crew until the 2000s, right? It's the early 2000 right so the Jersey crew has definitely made a full throttle comeback. It seems here Yeah, and and I don't know as much about I say wiped out. They literally killed. They literally had guys killed. Yeah Musso and Casso they were Quite a pair of dangerous individuals At one point that that's a whole nother interesting side story that one point the Lucchese the Jersey crew were almost operating like Independently from because there was a lot of confusion when a Musso and Casso got Undighted and then went on the run or castle went on the run and a Musso didn't I don't remember exactly but I don't cast but I Think they were both on the run and then maybe they got picked up first and then castle got picked up Nobody knew who to who was running what who to kick up to get right right so the whole anyhow I'm just saying that there's a there's a whole larger the the Lucchese family's Imprint in New Jersey. Yeah, and little Joe Perna Who should be that they should all be coming out of prison soon Maddie Madonna's never coming out He's doing life for the murder that he was convicted of a couple years ago, but Ralph Perna Joe Perna Johnny Perna they were Sentenced in 16 to 8 to 10 years next year will be 8 They're pretty young guy well not Ralph so much, but the sons are pretty young and I you know As we wrap up here. I mean, I think the Perna boys are Names that if you're a mob watcher if you if you're not aware of them become aware of them Because these are two guys that are gonna be around for for quite a while You know the oldest ones only 53 the youngest ones 46 And they they have a lot of respect and friends with those with Joey. Yeah, I mean Joe little I little Joe Spends a lot of time well at least when he was free Spent a lot of time with Joey Merlino and there's a if you just Google do a Google search put in Joey Merlino Joe Perna You can find maybe five or six photos that are online of them Just you know out on the out on the town hanging out. Yeah, um, it's interesting, but You know, I mean North Jersey is complicated because they have their own family decalves Conte's But if you're if you're unfamiliar with with what goes on there the five families usually have a presence there Yeah, most of the I would say every five family really has a crew up in North Jersey. Let's say every five family every Five family organization has a crew operating in New Jersey. Yeah, and and North Jersey this area that we're talking about is Really an extension of the Metropolitan, New York City area, so there's a lot of money to be made in this in this area So I'm kind of interested in and feel free to shoot us a message to answer my question I'm gonna do my own due diligence on and I'm kind of interested in in researching Ralph Perna and where he came from and who You know who groomed him. Yeah, how did he reach the point because I I? Didn't know about him until he became a cop. Oh and his kids were Running around with the Philly guys, but maybe that's just because I haven't really Until recently I wasn't really paying a ton of attention to the Lucchese crime family now. I am yeah, well, I wonder if all friend John Yeah, yeah, I think I talked about so he knows it. Well John Panissi Knows or when he was on the street was very close to little Joe. That's what I thought. Yeah. Yeah Well, I you know I enjoyed this I hope you know our audience is entertained and is informed by this We don't really have any answers We have a wrongful death lawsuit that was tossed out of court after a decade recently And we have an unsolved murder from 16 years ago from what I'm being told it There's no traction on that investigation So it looks like people did get away with murder whoever it is whether it's organized crime connected or not and Frankie Lugano 67 years old You know in some ways you might look at Lugano as You know the start for this Push to where we are now with or one of the came in one of the pioneers of this Trend, you know across the country where Taking my business or taking parts of my business off the street And and put it in the boardroom putting it into white collar crimes and using guys that have Ivy League educations Yeah Yeah, it's interesting, but you'll notice with this case The the guys that owe money and they're not paying it what they owe that it gets back to Street, right? It gets back to some street crime So it's it's usually not too far away, but your point is well taken about the online gambling that that seems to be the future Because with everything being legalized gambling being legalized now, but also just organizations mob organizations looking To people even like a panacea, you know guys that aren't all right Not knuckle-draggers guys that are savvy in the business world. Yeah, not just to to operate fronts, right? Yeah, like where you can Get in to white collar businesses and do a myriad of Rackets under, you know under the guise of doing legitimate business. Yeah, but you got I would say the Cautionary tale is Messino Promoted a lot of those guys Collapsed right under the pressure Those guys weren't used to doing well that's probably guys didn't do prison the state prison and time goes right back to Frank Logano, yeah, maybe they thought that this guy can't do time and he's gonna flip on us and by the way he did Right, right. Well. Thanks again for listening everyone. Please subscribe to our channel if you like it Subscribe to our YouTube channel subscribe to our audio podcast. Please You know contact us on social media Share us on social media. I'm trying to get Scott to be more interactive on social media. He's I have to be better sometimes. No, but honestly, and I have no problem No, it's true. I have to be better at it But for the audience just I want you to understand for my mental health sometimes It's better that I stay off of the internet in terms of comments and threads Not so much what we got on YouTube and that's why I I can't you know, throw the baby out with a bath of the What's the term? 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I feel you I've you guys you and Benny have And you know Roberto back in the day when he was part of it have thicker skin I see some of the comments and I I think this our our modest little podcast really make you that You're really you're really that pissed off about our what one guy I did I did respond I did respond to one guy Yeah, or when we're looking at the frances like us, but he's like burnt bent on a shape one guy was like Bernstein's a Biden lover But but yeah, some of the comments are very and I think you're really that angry about our modest little Operation here, but but whatever but we do get a lot of positive Feedback and we appreciate that and and some people have questions and the questions are almost always aimed at you You know a lot more about the stuff then and I promise I'll be better at it. I went on this weekend I'm just I think I'm gonna set one or two times a week and just you know spend 20 minutes or whatever So we appreciate that. Thanks for listening. 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