 Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the second meeting of the Rural Affairs Islands and Natural Environment Committee in 2023. I remind members using electronic devices to switch them to silent. We have apologies from Gerry Minto today, and we welcome back Emma Harper, who is attending as a substitute, and Rachel Hamilton, who will be participating remotely. Our first item of business is to take items 5 and 6 in private. Are members agree? O'r gweithio fewn y c 식twil yn gyda gofyn cynllun o'r Ledge of Consent Memorandum for Shark's Fin's Bill. Mae gweithio ar Maureen Gowry i'r cymryd iawn i'r If I could remind the officials remotely, if you wish to speak, if you could type R into the chat box. I could invite the cabinet secretary to make an opening statement. Thanks very much and good morning to you convener and the rest of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to speak about the shark fins bill and the associated legislative consent motion. Shark finning is the practice of removing fins from a shark at sea and returning the finless body to the water. The shark fins bill is intended to ban the import and export of shark fins obtained using this cruel practice. This is a private members bill, which has been introduced by Christina Rees MP, and it was introduced in June last year. It passed committee stage at the House of Commons on 16 November with broad cross-party support. I understand that the bill has passed the third reading in the UK Parliament last week, and it is now due to be considered by the House of Lords. It is right that we maintain the ban on shark finning practices in Scottish waters and ban the import and export of detached shark fins or things containing them. I was pleased that we were able to secure an amendment to ensure that appeals against certain decisions of the Scottish ministers relating to exemption certificates and final penalty notices are to be made to the first-tier tribunal for Scotland, rather than the UK-wide first-tier tribunal dealing with reserved matters. The amendment reflects that those matters fall within devolved competence. I understand that there has been constructive working between my officials and officials in the other fisheries administrations throughout this bill process, and that is on-going to ensure that there is that co-ordination on the implementation and, ultimately, the enforcement of the bill. I am really pleased to recommend supporting this bill as it aligns with key Scottish Government priorities, including reversing biodiversity loss and enhancing marine environmental protection. The bill also reaffirms Scotland's firm commitment to animal welfare and ensures that we speak with that greater credibility when we are advocating for shark conservation on the global stage. That is why I have recommended this legislative consent motion on the bill. Thank you. Thank you, cabinet secretary. It is one of those topics that we see in the agenda and we think how could it possibly apply to Scotland, but could you set out to what extent shark fin has previously been fished or traded in Scotland? You also mentioned exemption certificates. Could you tell us exactly what that means and why, if I understand correctly, there should be some exemptions to allowing shark fin fishing? Absolutely. That is the thing. The act of shark finning has been banned in the UK since 2003. We have fins naturally attached policy in relation to that, but what has still been permitted through that time is the personal imports of shark fins, so there has been a 20 kilogram allowance in relation to imports. That is what the bill will be drawing an end to. We do not think that there has been a tremendous amount of trade within that time. As far as I am aware, since 2017 across the UK, I am not aware that there has been much movement within that time, but it is important that that loophole is closed, which is exactly what the bill is looking to do. In relation to the second point about the exemptions to that, there are some exemptions within that, and that is only in the case if it is for the benefit of conservation of the species if there was a need to import a product that contains shark fins or a shark fin itself, but that is the only case in which that would be permitted to enter the country. Thank you. Arli Ann Burgess. Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, the bill amends retained EU law. If the retained EU law bill passes, it is assumed that this regulation would need to be retained before 2023 to ensure that the bill can operate. What discussions has the Scottish Government had with the UK Government on this? In relation to retained EU law, those discussions are on-going with the UK Government, so we had our meeting with the UK Government and the other devolved Administrations just at the start of this week, because retained EU law is an on-going process, but we are continuing to have those discussions to see what the impacts are going to be. In relation to the bill in particular, I haven't raised that specific point in relation to that, but it is an on-going process. When do you think you'll have the opportunity to raise that? Again, these discussions are on-going at the moment because we're still trying to look at that with the UK Government in terms of retained EU law as to what's going to be preserved. I'm not able to give a definitive response to that right now, but, of course, we will be considering that. The bill sets out some financial costs and states that there will be on-going operational costs, although it says that those would be difficult to quantify. I wonder why they're difficult to quantify and to what extent those costs will fall on the Scottish Government, Marine Scotland. The costs in relation to the bill fall mainly in relation to the additional powers or what we would be asking of the first-tier tribunal for Scotland. It's not possible for us to quantify that at the moment without knowing how many or potential cases might come forward. There's the additional training that would be needed in relation to that as well. Again, just as I was saying in a previous response from 2017, as far as we're aware, there hasn't been this trade, but without knowing how many cases could potentially come up it's hard to put an exact figure on what that could be at the moment. I mean, I don't know if officials would have anything further to add in relation to that and in relation to the costs. No, not at the moment. Thank you. Any further questions? Mercedes. Thank you. The minister mentioned that it would prevent the import of sharp fins. I wondered if you have any further information about fins being used as part of other products, like I don't know, ground up or incorporated into other products. If there's been any research into the impact of the import ban on those products, like how widespread that is, I don't know if you have any information on how common shark fins are. That's been one of the interesting things about going through the process and looking at the discussions that have taken place on this bill. In terms of some of the analysis that DEFRA had done, they estimated that the impact on business just more generally would be in the region of about £200,000. I think that's one of the positive things about this piece of legislation as well, is that it's not just shark fins themselves, it also prohibits the import and of things containing shark fins, so that could be tinned shark fins soup as an example of that as well, so it is encompassing in that regard. Thank you. Emma Harper. Good morning, cabinet secretary. Just looking at the briefing papers, it says that the global trade in shark fins is estimated to be 16,000 to 17,000 tonnes per year, resulting in the deaths of 97 million sharks annually. That's huge, so I just wanted to make sure that that was pointed out, but you're saying that it's not a big issue for us in Scotland, for instance, but I just wanted to make sure that that was something that we were quite vocal about. You're absolutely right, and I think that it's important, because I think that that was one of the things, again, that shocked me in looking at the information here, because you're right that we haven't... It's been banned in the UK since 2003. That isn't a practice that generally takes place here, but I think that there were some other figures that around, I think, for the 1 to 2 million tonnes of shark fins traded, you need 73 million sharks to provide that, and it is a really cruel and horrendous practice, and I think that this builds an important step forward in trying to put an end to that trade and encouraging that practice. Jim Fairlie. That was one of the points that I wanted to actually get on record, was the sheer scale that has come to us in the briefing paper. 97 million sharks killed for 16 to 17,000 tonnes of fins. It's horrendous. But you just mentioned there about shark fin soup in tins. Do we import tins of shark fin soup that are already in the tins and where do they come from? I mean, I would have to look into that in more detail. I mean, that's covered by the import ban at the moment. I couldn't give you an idea at the moment in relation to the scale of what that trade would be just now. Again, I don't know if officials would have any further information on the specifics of that question. The point that I'm making is that we'll ban the import of shark fins in the raw, as it were, for want of a better word, but we would still be encouraging that trade if we were allowing already processed shark fins to come into the country as a product to be consumed. Yes, so that's why the import ban covers shark fins and things containing shark fins as well. Thank you very much. That concludes our evidence session, so thank you to the cabinet secretary and your officials for attending. The committee will now review the evidence that we've heard and discuss a report in private. Now, to spend the meeting, I'll go into private and return in public session at 10 o'clock.