 It just kind of felt like, I don't know it's like you didn't care, but it just felt like you, like, you just did whatever you wanted and whenever you wanted to communicate, you communicate. When you didn't want to communicate, you didn't communicate. So I was like, all right, okay, I'll accept that because I don't have anything negative towards you, but that did bother me. Yeah. And that's something, that's a really great feedback and something good to know. And I can kind of see the through line as to where those same qualities probably came back to, you know, really hurt me in many ways. And I'm sorry that I hurt you again. Hey, there are lovers and friends. So yeah, I really did this. I spoke with an ex who I would refer to as an ex-fiance. Do you remember that we were engaged? I'm not sure what I intended when I requested that Ovan do this talk with me, but it definitely wasn't the drag fest that it ended up being for me. That's okay. That's how we grow. That's how we know by understanding our past, we can control more about our future. When we know what our output was, we have a better understanding for what to change for a better outcome. And so I'm taking all the bad that was given in this discussion and there was a lot of bad. And even though it was years and years ago, I'm still finding constructive ways to apply that to healing from other past failed relationships and also for things that I know absolutely going forward in my marriage, I have to be mindful to keep in check for myself. So Ovan and I dated when I went to Coppin State University. And when you are dating somebody, when both of you are staying on residence, it really accelerates the relationship. We essentially lived together. We spent every night together. We ate together. And so I think that even though it was a long time ago and I was very young, I do still consider this to be one of the most impactful relationships, which is why I still felt it was relevant to chat with him here today. Now, many of you who have read the game of desire know that chapter five is called X marks the spot. And in that I encourage the women that I worked with and thus all of you as readers to go back and interview an ex to see from their perspective how things went down so you can learn from that. I didn't anticipate that this would be an X interview exercise. That's precisely what it was. And it really made me really start to think about the questions that I had in the game of desire and how I could update those so people could get as much out of the conversations with their ex that I got out of it with Ovan. So please go to the game of desire.com slash X to find an updated list of questions. Should you feel inspired to try this exercise for yourself? Of course, the game of desire.com is a website that is powered by Squarespace and Squarespace is the sponsor of this video. Whatever you need from websites to online stores to marketing tools like newsletters, Squarespace has you covered. Choose from tons of templates to make your web presence stunning and make it fast. Last month, Shane ran a contest and gave someone Squarespace for an entire year. Since then, Life Coach Linnae built T Linnae.com. Now it's your turn to power your next big idea with an all-in-one platform. If you haven't done so, go check out Squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to Squarespace.com slash Shamboody to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Hi, Ovan Short. What's going on, Shannon? How are you? I'm doing excellent. On a scale of 1-2, this is so crazy random. Where would you pinpoint this conversation? On a scale of randomness, close to about a 7 and 8, around that area, 7.5, 7.5. I feel like I should have built up a reputation for being random enough to where this is not random at all. You know, it's been so long, so it's like, I kind of forgot the randomness, you know. But that's not true though. It's a refresher. I did see you recently. I saw you with five years ago. Four years? And that was random because I just popped up at your job. It is one of the byproducts of my job is that I think these type of things become very normal to me and then I forget that they're not normal things to do. But it should be because, you know, you were a really big part of my life and a really big part of my story and my formation around love in relationships in general. I would just love to know, you know, from your perspective, how would you describe what we shared? If I can like put it into like maybe one word, I think I think we truly shared like it was it was fun, you know, it was it was so free. It wasn't like a typical relationship that I've been in before. You know, it was new to me. It was I never had somebody who who was an ass. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, I'm a jerk. Like, that's just who I am. But then I found somebody who's maybe a bigger ass than me. So it was like, I had to like That was his honest recollection of me. And as you keep watching, you'll find out that it it only gets worse for me. Do you remember that we were engaged? I know we talked about it. I didn't know. My brain is just not as good as we used to be. Tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me about it. Tell me about it. I think that that was really indicative, though, of the relationship that we had. It was an engagement without a ring. About it. Yeah. Yeah, it was an engagement without a ring. But it was just basically, you know, I was leaving Baltimore. I think I was a teenager still and you had just turned 20. I was leaving Baltimore and we had shared so much. It was definitely my first adult relationship. You know, I think in many ways we lived together, although technically, you know, you live in different dorms, but you spend so much time with the person. And so I felt like that was just our attempt at making a, like a verbal agreement that this is something that we wanted to continue. But yeah, it was a kitty ass engagement, but I still was engaged before. Yeah, it was, um, it was, it was amazing. I think I remember that day, like when you were getting ready to leave and it was, it was hard because like you said, we spent so much time together. And like during that time, like, at least on my end, I was going through that. So, you know, pleasure, my fraternity being online. And then, um, you shut out the Iodify thing, fraternity incorporated, gotta throw it out there. So when I was online, you know, just coming back to the dorms, coming by to see you, it was like, you know, you were there for me. You were like, holding it down. And we have this, this like house relationships. Just do my fiance duties. You know what it is. Hold it down. Do you feel like there's anything that I owe you an apology for? Wow. I think in some ways, I guess on my end, I didn't necessarily feel like there was closure. I felt like the last day we spent together, we both kind of knew like, all right, this is it. But I don't know, it still didn't feel like, in a sense, like it was over over. I knew it was over, but so I don't want to say closure, but closure seemed to be the best thing to think of. And it was hard because I remember, you know, when you left to go to Canada first, you know, you said something to me that that was kind of hard for me to stomach, but it was, it was true. Like I had to understand that logically, you know, that physically we're not together. And it occurred me if I'm wrong, but I think you said something along the lines of, like, we can see other people until we get back together or something like that. That's a very, I don't remember saying that, but that's a very me thing to say. So I could see that. You hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Hello. Hello. I can hear you great. Oh, hello. I'm having no problems on my end. Can you hear me fine, Ovan? All right, so to recap, I was an asshole. You don't remember being engaged to me and you feel as though I didn't give you closure. Very close, very close, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. You were telling me your side. Yes, I think from my perspective, I remember things very positively. And I'm acutely aware that whenever you remember things very positively, it's because you were probably the negative person. That's the math. If you're like, no, that was great. Everything felt great. I felt very clear at the end. It felt very smooth. It felt very amicable. And then I just really thought about it. And I was like, that probably isn't indicative of you didn't do things and tie it up well for the other person. There's a song that you and I had identified for each other. I want to call it our song. But do you know what song that is? Oh, you're making me think now. God damn. I'm gonna let you go first. It's the right answer. So you could just say just tell me the answer, but it's John Legend, ordinary people. Exactly. That's what I was. Tip of your tongue. Who's the asshole you're Ovan? Okay. I remember all the sentimental things. You know what I remember? I remember dent head. Dent head, dent head. You ass. Ovan had a very small dent in his head. And so I made up a jingle about it. At that time, I do not think I understood the difference between flirtatious teasing and straight up bullying somebody. And if you guys read the game of desire, you know the other ex that I interviewed referred to me as very raw and blunt and incapable or seemingly incapable of having sensitive conversations. And now that you're starting to get all these different pieces, you're beginning to see how I was the architect of my own intimate demise in many ways during my formative years of trying my hand at love. And that's okay. This is why I do what I do for a living. It's why I study this crap just because I acknowledge that a lot of us, one, don't have the best instincts or two, don't have the best examples. So we end up trialing and erroring. And a lot of that trials is tons of errors, but that really speaks to the song that I said that was Ovan and I song at the time, because even though I didn't necessarily know what I was doing wrong, I did know that I didn't know what I was doing. And so if you guys remember ordinary people, maybe we'll live and learn. Maybe we'll crash and burn. Maybe you'll stay. Maybe you'll leave. Maybe you'll return. Maybe another fight. Maybe we won't survive, but maybe we'll grow. We never know. Maybe you and I were just ordinary people. We don't know which way to go because we're ordinary people. Maybe we should take it slow. So yeah, there's a lot I would change if I could go back, but I can't. So all I can do is learn going forward. So enjoy my learning process. Before we get back to the video, one more shout out to Squarespace's sponsor, and then I will give you no more interruptions. You guys can just see how the conversation unfolded. If you haven't done so, go over to Squarespace.com. Go play around. Go have fun. Go build a website. Feel the reins of what this website can do for you. And when you're ready to launch, go over to Squarespace.com slash Shambudi to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. The reason why the song Ordinary People stuck out to me is because I remember at the time just feeling like I didn't have the tools. We were in love and in a long distance relationship and in our early 20s. And there's so much happening. I didn't even know career-wise what I was going to do. And so it just felt like an overwhelming sense of responsibility that I didn't have the coping mechanisms to manage or the communication skills to effectively tell you what I was going through. And so it probably came across in really direct insensitive lines like we should see other people. It probably came across in really like direct ways like not talking rather than talking out of fear of saying the wrong thing. So Ordinary People, I remember just being a song that felt really true because it was like I'm experiencing a love story with you and I'm experiencing a positive relationship with you. But I don't necessarily know how to manage my feelings and expectations in a positive way. That's positive obviously for both of us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny though. Like in a way, I kind of felt like I didn't know fully where I was and where I wanted to be. And in a sense, I kind of thought you knew where you were and what you wanted to do. Like I looked at you and I was like, man, like she is motivated. And in a sense, I've always dealt with competition in my life. Competition fuels me. It makes me want to work harder. And that's just how I've always been. So in a sense, I was looking at you and I was like, man, like she knows exactly what she wants, where she wants to be, and she's working towards it. I did feel like I got to step my shit up. And it just kind of made me feel self-conscious. Again, I guess another thing hit me as I felt self-conscious. Like I got to get my shit together. I got to push hard. I got to work harder. Well, I remember doing background work when I was dating you. So the fact that you looked at me as like doing it, you know, is quite impressive. But I think that I had started to your point to develop. And I know this. I can't concretely remember why, but I do know for some reason I credited Laid my first book to you. I don't remember the inspiration or story behind it, but I do remember either it was the confidence that you gave me or the reassurance that you gave me because, you know, obviously my family or my close people around me weren't gung-ho about this concept that I wanted to do. But I feel like you gave me the like, nah, you can do this. It's going to be good. Like go for it. So I think in many ways, I mean, yes, you did. You did. Yeah. Like I think like, if anything, if, like, even if I'm not where I'm supposed to be, that doesn't mean that, you know, that I shouldn't encourage you because, and like I felt like you kind of already knew what you wanted to do. You were pushing in a direction, you know, what kind of person might be to discourage you. You know, I said, hey, you shine, we shine. Right. So I feel like you were the first person to take an active interest in me as like a whole person and to support that the growth of the whole person and to be a partner to me. So I'm just so grateful for that. And I can't say that after you, I went on to have incredible partners. That's a damn lie. But I feel like you just knowing that I had something with you that was like based in friendship that was based in mutual, you know, passion for each other that was based in support that was not toxic. And from my perspective, like knowing that was possible was so hugely important for me. So I just, I want to say thank you. Hey, no, I mean, like I said, I think at different times we support each other. Yeah. But then you kind of feel like it took a downturn where it stopped being like uplifting for you. I won't say that it stopped feeling like uplifting. I would say that maybe in a sense, I kind of got in my own head. Like later, like later towards our relationship. And I kind of felt like some things you were expecting me to be comfortable with. I wasn't comfortable with because again, like I said, if I'm like, if I'm all for you, like I'm like, boom, nothing else, nobody else. And then when you hit it with the line, like, you know, we could see each other, see other people and then get back together. And it's like, that means somebody else is going to be with you. Like, I don't, I don't want that. But it was like, in a sense, I felt like I didn't have a choice because it made sense logically, but emotionally, it didn't make sense. Yes. It didn't align with who you were and how you love. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know if you're like aware, like even like my marriage or my relationship now is like based on principles of non monogamy. So like that I just want you to know is like not a reflection of how I felt about you or reflection of not feeling like enough with you. That is just genuinely like how I express love. Like that is my capacity to do that to some extent to feel very comfortable with my partner going out there and experiencing and me experiencing while that not meaning anything different between you and I. No, I mean, that's, that's, that's good to hear. I mean, I think that's a part of that closure because like I said, it, it, it struck me kind of wrong, you know, and I didn't know exactly why. I mean, I ran to understand why because we're apart. But you know, I didn't understand why it was so comfortable for you to say, Hey, we're to see other people. And it was like, I've never, you know, been in that situation before. Even when I was with somebody in my younger years, and we were like, in one town and another town, I still stay faithful. As far as I know, she was faithful, I guess, but that's kind of how my mentality was like, all right, we'll find a way to make it work. And I, and it was this guy, I can't remember, he might have been your ex, but I remember, I remember a situation. I don't know if you remember it, but it's when I think we were in the mall and I think you ran into him. And it was like, I felt something. I felt something that, that told me like, she still has feelings for this guy. And I didn't say anything, but I remember that feeling like she took out feelings for this guy. And you know, if I'm not here, will he take my place? You know, and that, that just kind of blew my mind still that notion that I could be with you and be happy with you, but still see somebody from my past. And you could see like pieces of me that wanted to be happy with that person. Like that didn't compute. Yeah, no, it, it, uh, yeah, it didn't. Um, yeah, I mean, you couldn't, you couldn't really, like, it just so happened to be that way. But like that part right there, it wasn't, it wasn't, um, it didn't connect for me in a way where I understood it to be, it is what it is. It was more like the fuck. Like, huh, okay. Don't feel good. Yeah. And I probably again, did not have the capacity to explain to you or even that self-awareness to be like, this is very normal for me. All in all, I guess the closure that I want to give to you is that those feelings, if I, you know, did express wanting to see other people or if I, you did see a moment between me and an ex in front of you and that felt like, well, how could you care for me and still feel that like that's probably more in my, in my nature than has anything to do with personal to you. Because in my mind and my recollection and in my books for the rest of now till forever, like you were a life changing partner for me. You were an awesome person. I am like so much better for having, don't my moment. Oh man. Back. No, no, like, no, no, like it. So look, my one of my love, have you taken the love languages, the five love, love languages? Yes. So one of my, my top language is words of affirmation. So I've never heard this from you before. So you're getting like the raw feeling of, ooh, like, like it kind of hits the heart. Like, okay. Oh, it came across and it, but it was really a, ooh. Yeah. I was like, oh, like, what's this? Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what's interesting though? I guess in many ways, and this is just sort of indicative, I guess, of your character, but you know, for a living, I talk about sex and love, right? And so my relationships come up a lot. I never reference anybody by name or any distinguishing characteristics, but I have talked about you before. And you're even in my recent book, I'm pretty sure by name, I might have actually listed you by name in my book. It's a sentence though. Do you want me to read it to you? I think it's, let me check right now. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I wanted to read you, Ovan, a section from my book, which is called The Game of Desire, and you are on page 245, and I will say this, I make a really strong attempt never to use people's names, but for some reason I felt that liberty, which now that I'm saying this out loud, I thought I should have cleared this with you first because I'm sure there's not a lot of Ovan's out there. No, no, no. It's not. No. But it's good. It's good though. Okay. All right. Let's see. Let's see. All right. In your final awesome days of raging on this incredible planet, I failed to see any circumstances where you're going to choke out the words. I'm so glad that in my 20s and 30s, I chickened out and avoided that person that made me feel alive. Even today when I think back on the inconceivable disappointments that love has awarded me with, I smile because that is exactly what those experiences are to me, awards. The award for puppy love on acid went to my 19-year-old self who got quote unquote engaged and then in brackets says, you know the kind without a ring to my boyfriend because I was leaving Coppen State University early and for some reason, promising my forever seemed more logical than saying goodbye. In brackets, I said, hey Ovan. Wow. I'm speechless on that one. Well, yeah, know your name is in a book somewhere. And it's for a good reason. I do, you know, I think back on our time that I think about it like an award. It was a gift for me. It was a gift. I want to thank you for that. Yeah. No, I mean, this was definitely good. I mean, like I said, it helped me in a lot of ways because a lot of the things that I felt, you know, as time went on, I kind of just buried it and moved on. And like I said, never had any ill will towards you. So whenever you popped up, it was always like, hey, sure, however, can I help? I hope, you know, because, you know, it wasn't all bad. We had, we had good times. We had, we had some fun times and a lot of the stuff that we went through, like I learned from it, you know, as overall, it was a good relationship. I think we both learned some things from it and it made us, you know, better where we are now in our current situations, my current marriages and our life. So it was good. Well, tell me, tell me about your life now and, you know, what's exciting to you and tell the people about you, where they can find you, what you're up to and all those great things. Yeah, yeah, cool. So right now I'm on lockdown, like everybody is with this virus is going on. So when this is not happening, I'm out, I work for my local government through recreation and parks. I supervise, I have school programs for teens. I love working with kids. I work with kids my whole life. And when I'm not working, I do, so I do acting, I do background work. I just started doing that last year. So it's been really nice just come on new jobs and just learning the craft and getting better at it. Also like investing. So I do a lot of investing through the stock market. I own a lot of shares of different companies. And that's kind of been my drive and my passion. And I started something called okay to motivate. And you can find me on Twitter at okay underscore to motivate also on Instagram, okay underscore to underscore motivate. So my goal behind that is really just to get people to understand that, hey, you don't have to be some Harvard educated person to learn about the stock market. You could be a regular Joe, as long as you put the time in and the work in to learn about it, it's fun. And this is the time now where you get a chance to make your money because as you can see, the government is bailing out everyone else except for the individual person. So why not make some money? Yes, amen. That's honestly, I'm so proud of you. I'm so in awe of all that you're doing. I'm really happy for your family. I'm happy for your growth. And if back in the day, I didn't call the check up and say how your family is doing. I hope that like now I get to rewrite that and ask, how is your mom? Big shout out to Ovan for being down to have this conversation. Also shout out to Ovan's wife for being cool with us having this discussion on the worldwide web. Personally, I know that I was better for it. I hope you as a viewer took something interesting out of this and it helped you to reflect on yourself. Once again, if you want to do this exercise, I suggest you go to the game of desire.com slash X because I gave you a list of questions there and some additional tools. Should you want to embark on it? And should you want to be as impactful as possible? I realized when I watched back this video in the edit, the one impactful thing that I did not do was just straight up say, I'm sorry. If there's something that you feel that you could have done differently, you might owe it to the other person just to say, I'm sorry. I regret the way that I treated you. I regret the person that I showed up as in that situation. I regret the side of me that it brought out and you were undeserving of that. So I apologize. I have definitely learned from this experience. Like I said, I took a lot of positive out of it and I wish that you left feeling the exact same way, but hopefully now we can right those wrongs years and years later. It's never too late to grow. It's never too late to evolve and your growth and your evolution should not mean the people who were harmed from your previous version should be left in the dust. And so I think it was important that I did this video for a lot of different reasons, but enough about me. Let's talk about you now. Should this be a series? And I don't just mean for me and my own particular tragic love life from the past, but in general, should I bring people together to try to have a constructive conversation like this? Also, would you be intrigued on having a constructive conversation like this? Let's have a chat about X's, the past, and what role they play in your future in the comment section below.