 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. And we're on. Today's guest, we've got Michael Gross. How are you, brother? Very well, thank you. Pleasure being there. Trust me. Likewise. Likewise. Watching your videos, is we? This is surreal. Honestly. You only messaged me today. I know. It's just the strangest thing, isn't it? I've always believed in good karma. I think of it as meant to be. It's meant to be. Exactly. And if it doesn't work, it don't work. And so you came back really quick. I wasn't even expecting it. I thought I was just landing around in the front room, right? Then I saw this message. All right, brother. I was like, he's on his way back. Yeah, it's just, I think sometimes you just got to go with the flow of it, isn't it? Yeah. So, literally, my friend mentioned it to me last night. He went, you should pin. He'd been watching it. He's been watching it. I'd been watching it, you know? I'd been seeing, you know, me and started to get to another few of them now, like, you know. And then he goes, you should turn it off. So, yeah, that's surreal. Yeah, three hours later. But your story, your mum was shot by the police. You started the Brixton Riots in 1985. You've battled with addictions. In and out of prison. Now you're trying to do good in life. You're actually trying to help police brutality, not for the police getting brutalised as well. I switched the game over. And I just felt that, you know, what people don't realise is that I went, there was two sides to my story, right? The first side is that you got the shooting of my mum, right? And they made it look like a black, this young black guy running around Brixton or London with his gun. And he's just a maniac, right? But I had really, I was quite diverse in me as a person from quite young. I've always been that way. I've never been, I've never been in a gang as such as such. I've been a crew, I've been in a firm, but never been in a gang. And it was really strange when my mum got shot. It was my powers from Lambeth Walk that pulled me through. And they were all Londoners, Millwall supporters, footballers, custom mongers, pubgoers, bookies, you know, that kind of lifestyle, that underbelly of the underground, but the nicest part of it rather than the really horrible part. And so, yeah, they really helped me a lot. I've never, I've never forgotten them because they just keep you on your feet. No matter how well and on I became, they'd call me also, don't just treat me, don't treat me so normal, it was ridiculous. Unless it's just love being in their company because I knew that if I was doing something wrong, and which they did do, even when I was on the cocaine, I was on it bad. I mean, I lost myself on it. And then there's to come up to me and go, Cowboy, you should like, you should sort yourself out, you know. And I'd be like, fuck off, you cunt. You're drinking it, you know. What the call you Cowboy? That's my nickname, yeah. Because he had guns or what? What it started off was, it started off because I went to Timor Faust, which is, there was little gangs, they were, yeah, the younger ones, the older ones, you know. And I was in the middle and everybody had a nickname. We had Mattie, Pear, Dodger, Slab, Beaver, Dim Shit. We had everybody there. Beaver, I like that one. You're like Dim Shit was a classic Slabhead. Everyone had a name. And I was playing football in the playground and someone's seen me go up the fence. And they said, we've got to give them a name. So they was like, look at him, he's bandy. Why don't we call him Cowboy? No, call him John Wayne. And someone went, fucking John, you can't call him John Wayne. It just sounds stupid. And then someone said, why don't we just call him Cowboy? And it stuck. I never got, I could never get rid of it. I could leave Voxel, come back two years later. All right, Cowboy. I'll go away, come back again, do another bird, go back to Voxel. All right, Cowboy. To the point that when my mum actually got shot, my parents were saying, get Cowboy. Tilly McGee's and Brixton got shot. So my pal went, you silly, silly cunt. That is Cowboy. They went, no, it's not. McGee's is called Mickey Gross. So they went, that is Cowboy. He goes, what, Cowboy's not his real name? And we was all looking and going, I can be born with him named Cowboy, but that's how everybody knew me. So yeah, and then there's the shooting, just escalated it more. It just stuck. We'll go through everything, brother. I always go back to the start of my guests, where you grew up and how it all began. Well, I'm the oldest of seven kids. And my mum was a single mother. We was moving around South London from, we lived in Lewish and then we went to Brixton when I was about four. And we lived just off the line on the road. And it was tough for everybody. It's not just me. It was just tough for everybody. And so my mum got blessed her soul. I would do anything, even at that young age, to try and help her. She's new mum. And so I was very quickly introduced to crime by the local boys. I was a bit of a tealiff anyway. I'd lick anything, sweets, bikes, scrap bikes. I'd go and flip in scrap yards and do what I've got to do and bring back metals and all. I don't know. I'd just do what I had to do. And then the boys in Brixton sort of like took me under their wing. And that was it. I was just like this little mascot for these bigger boys in Brixton being thrown through the window and rubbish like that. And I became unruly beyond my mother's reach when I was seven. So they tricked me a little bit, took me to court. I know they did something but didn't know what. And then my social worker came to me one day and said, you know, we're going to take you for a drive. Took me to this place in Heathfield called Beachwood House. And they told me to go and play. When I went and played, they drove off. Came back and the suitcase was in the yard. I bawled. I cried my eyes out. They couldn't console me. It was just that bit. And then I stayed. After a while I kept running away and then I finally settled down when I was about 11. So the first three years that I was like come to Kinti I wasn't, I wasn't, I was coming and running. And then I settled down a couple of years, really got into my education and started to learn to read and write. Came back to London when I was about 14. I was still coming for holidays to my mum. Came back to the children's home in school terms and maybe come home. So then I finally left children's homes at 15. I didn't even survive in London for six months. I was banned, banned me from London. I got caught doing burglaries on bail. Wasn't a good look. So I went to the magistrate court and the judge just said we're going to remind you in custody first. I did a couple of months at Stanford, Stanford Hill, Stanford, yeah, Stanford Hill. Down in Hemsmith. And then I went to Reading in the men's hostel at 15 to stay there for three years. Then they banned me from Reading. But while I was in Reading I actually did two sentences. I did a D.C. in my summer holiday. Then I came back to school in the summer holiday. They gave me a bolster at Easter. So in between my school and I did these two prison sentences. Bolster in the Y.C., D.C. And then from then the funny thing is you mentioned football, right? So there's a book out come out now called Portland Bolster and it's written by a guy called Pat Figs. Figs said he was in the gym orderly there. And our football team was notorious. We actually got to the final Dorset Cup. Except we beat Weymouth, the semi-professional team. Massive, great. There's the biggest football pitch in the country. It's built in the quarry and we used to play with it. And it was that moment where you know when you're 15, 80 and I've done from 16 to 18 in Portland and Lewis Prison and I was in that age. Where was I going with my life as a kid? There was just still, you know, tasting what porridge with bird is all about, right? And I was doing so well at my football that Reading came for me when I was in Portland Bolster signed me up for a trial. I was proper happy. I thought this is it. We was all talking about my boys were talking to me in the landing and you wait till you make it, man. I want to be your agent and blah, blah, blah. Screws was coming into my soul. They gave me their shin pads. Another one came in. It was just a crazy, crazy moment for me. Came out, went straight to my probation officer because I was still under 18. Told her I got my trash because you're banned from Reading. What? I smashed up the office. Don't know what happened there. Just completely lost my temper. And then I had a chip in my shoulder and just thought I was going to just fuck everybody. I was going to just get in trouble again. Got another sentence within six months again. I was shit at it, but too brave. Not some of that shit. I was just too bloody brave for my own good and quite desperate. So I was doing a lot of grafting. My powers, me and my power, I won't mention his name. He says you're not a crook until you've been nicked seven times. And at first I didn't get it. Why would you get nicked seven times if you're called a villain? That's when you know if you are a villain. If you're going to go for it. When you get nicked once, you might go, I'm not going to do it no more. Get nicked twice. I should have learnt the first time. Get nicked three times. I've got to pull my finger out. Except this is part of the game. I've got to be nicked seven times if I'm called proper faith. He goes, yeah, Mickey. I'm not a proper faith mate. I used to live with her. She was proper grafter. She could grafter all day. She'd get up in the morning and come home until she's made it. That makes sense. She'll start off with creeping. Then it's dipping. Then it's shoplifting. We still don't make money. It's back to creeping. And then on the way home, it's still burglary. Until we get something, we're not coming home with no money. Does she have a target? She's coming home with something. That's it. Then we're going to sell it. I said, I love gaming. Then finally, we got split up and I was ready to come back to London. Then I got a lot of bits of trouble in there. Then I went back inside. I came out. I went to a place called Norfyre. It was in between my... I was 20 and 21. I was in between that bit. They just done me and said you're going to a prison. End up at Norfyre. It was really weird. I don't know if they've ever told you, but sometimes in prison you get given nicknames. So I've woken up one morning and when it was, I was giving the visit so I said to my cellmate, can you cut hair? Worst question you can ask your cellmate. Can you cut hair? He goes, of course I can cut hair. I said, listen, I've got a visit this afternoon. I need to look really good for my mrs. He goes, I'll do you hair. And as he's cutting it, I just felt... He didn't say nothing. I just felt the wind in my ear. It was a bit patchy. And I was like, is it alright? He goes, no man, seriously, man, seriously, no man. He goes, let me just show you what it looks like at the back. At the side of my head it was bald. And I was like, brother, you might as well just take it off. I was so fuming, but the visit was coming. So he goes, what about your beard? I said, no, just leave me beard, you know. Just take the whole lot off, man. So he took the whole lot off, right. As I come out of the room, my billets are going to visit. Someone shouts out, alright, Hagler. My favourite boxer of all time, to be called Hagler. I was like, what? I'm going to own that one. It was quite well built anyway. But I just maintained that build and football and everything that goes with it had been a prison jock. I don't know if you know what that means. The prison football and the jock. That was the first time I got given a proper prison. Do you have been in prison since you were 7? I've been in an institution since I was 7. And what was the mindset? How was the head? Were you just decided to be a bad boy, just to be a criminal? I've never told people that. I'm a grafter. There's a big difference. I'll make money in any way it comes to me. If I have to go and work, I'll work. If I have to go and do a robbery, I'll do a robbery. If I have to go and nick a car, I'll nick it. I don't have a skill set. You know, I had a sentence and they tried to A-cap me and B-cap me and they couldn't do it. You know why? Because I don't have a set crime. It's literally... If I get nicked for that, I won't get nicked for a second time. That makes sense. How many charges have you got? I've got 75. I don't know what category I was under. Is that you got 75 charges? Seed my CRV. Shit. That could be a long podcast if I read all this. The only common charge I've got there is assault against police. That's the only common charge I've got. You'd be very rare to find me doing two more than two moves. Have you cleared off all your fines? I just do the bird. 140 quid fine in the 80s, man's quite steep as well. I got a fine recently about seven months ago. Maybe a bit longer. I was running one of my projects and there's this activist around my area and he picks on everybody. All the counsellors, those that can't really fight. He's really one of those new age activists that wanted to put it on you. He came into my building and brought 40 people in and just raided it. He shut down my building, man. He was just being awkward. I said we're going to call the police because it's a building. I'm in the insurance, I just can't fight and all things like that. I've tried to give you a warning but you're not having it, mate. So please come and I know the rules so all I need is a report number where I can get him out. So I've got my report number and he's like, yeah, well, I ain't going nowhere. So when you know who you are, you're a cunt. As soon as I said to him, you're just a cunt, mate. And I walked off. The police station reported me for threatening behaviour. I took me to court for using the word cunt. I couldn't believe it. So they took me to court, found me guilty in the magistrate. I didn't say a word. They said you're guilty. 10 pound fine. So he's like grinning at me. So I said, yeah, I'm going to show you how the system works now. I'm appealing. So I appealed. They said, guilty again. 15 pound fine. So I appealed again. And I got it to the crown court and they said, the judge gave me first four years. I had four hours, but when I got there one hour and they got me in the dock and it just seems to shambles. So when I got in the dock, the judge said, have you got anything to say? I said, yeah, I do. I turn around to the keys and I go, you're a cunt. Because you can't do that. Because no, no, honestly, he's a cunt. Give me 10 pound fine and let me go. Someone goes, you must have been the right cunt for you. But yeah, so it's yeah, it's fair. So I won't go in that route again. When you were 21 then, was that the year your mum was shot at 85? My mum was shot. I was 21. Yeah. So what happened that night? Did you have a want out for your arrest? So my pal and mine had a want for his arrest. Was that for firearms? He got known for robbery. We all went to a place called Hertfordshire together. There's four or five of us. Sometimes we just go out for a drive and look for some birds in different areas. Anthony goes, yeah, I know some birds. Took us down there. He was giving us a walk round and there's my house and there's my tree. Where's the birds? Where's the birds? No, no, but there's that. So we went on. We left him there. He found the bird in the end. So he said, but he got done for robbery. So he gave all our names as his witness. So I happened to have some issues at the time in my house. The issue got squashed. So the gun was going back. But the day of that happening, me and my girlfriend had an argument. Right. And so I was showing off technically and she put it on me really. And I didn't know what to do. I just sort of thought, fuck me, I just put the big out on and she's just stuck it on me. I don't want to kill the woman because she's a good woman. I just fired it into the wardrobe. And then as you do, you made me do the usual excuses and then the door went like that. And I was like, what? That was quick by my neighbours. That was very quick. So she's locked around, she's picked up the bullets. I thought I ain't putting my gun down now. There's no fucking way I'm going to put my gun down because she's picked up the little bag. So I went to the door thinking it's my neighbour and I didn't even recognise his fella. It's just some strange man looking at me going, are you Michael Gross? And the moment he said it I thought, I'm not going to answer him. I'm not going to declare who I am. I'm just going to close the door on him. So I went to close the door on him and he just stuck his foot in, pushed the door open because, are you fucking Michael Gross? And I thought, there must be another one there as well. But I'm not going to give you my gun. That was not going to happen. I'm not going to surrender. I need to get away. I put him on the floor and told him to fuck off. So I went as quietly as I could. I just went, fuck off. I whispered it and I kind of left them up. I pushed them out the door and he just run. So I don't know where the other one was. So I escaped. But what I did boys, because I did I did, is it, I did a NTC with this little boy, an army training. Cadets. And they taught you about war combat zone and an officer, a soldier is declared if he puts his gun down you can't shoot him. That's some weird rule in combat zone, right? So it's not, if I pulled the gun out of the police officer which I did if I'd left the building with it then I'm armed and dangerous then they're going to kill me, right? I knew I can't leave the building with that gun. So I whacked it and put it down. So when I went on the run I presumed they found it. This gun got moved and they couldn't find it. So it was it was only after two days when they got my misses and dragged her in and said what, we need to find him because he's dead. He's got the warrants, he's got his bullet and they sent a message to me, there's a bullet in my name on it they was to ripping up all my mate's houses trying to find me and then she was like what? They said yeah, because he's got his gun and that's when she's clocked it because he ain't got his gun. No, he's definitely left the gun, we can't find it No, if she went to the kitchen she pulled it out. So why would you not take the gun then? Because I would have been armed and dangerous. But you were already fucked anyway if you pulled it out No, no, no. If you leave the gun you're no longer armed and dangerous. So would you still get done with the same charges though? No. Would you not? No. It's not the same. See I didn't. It's not as a point of law. So what is that then? So you've probably gone out in the copper, in the flat but left the gun in the flat. I've said it in inquiry, they said he wasn't wanted because the gun was left in the flat. I'd be thinking fuck it man, I'm just taking the gun. Get rid of it. But you can't do it. Then it's just his word against mine. No, that's too late. You've left the building with that gun and they can't find it. How did they know if it was a gun? Because it would have been your word. That's the way I would have been thinking. Well, yes, but I didn't want to... I tried to explain something. My intention wasn't to go on the run and hide in and then go in bushes. No, my intention was to hand myself in but not there. Not at that moment. Because I had no defence. I've got caught with the gun in my hand with the police. Brother, I need to escape. I've not confirmed who I am yet. Does that make sense? If I was their concern, they don't know if it was me or not. So I'm leaving it. I'm leaving it. It doesn't heighten the chase and I've not confessed it's me yet. But what happened was I went to one of my pals. I said, listen, I think I'm in trouble. He was like, I tell you what we do. Let's go to... Let's take you to the courtroom. My mate's thing is up. I'm going to bring you to the court case. They'll never search for you there. Then we get your barrister. That was the plan. Got there. The barrister was so long to come to me. I just lost patience because all these police kept coming in and I was like, they're going to get me in a minute and now they are. So I thought, let me just quickly go across the road. I went to two of my pals. Let's go across the road. Think, make a phone call to my husband. You know, let's take it from there. It's filled with police. We just walked in. We walked literally, I walked in to the far side where I was shooting myself. But I need to find out. So I walked right to the far side. I even nodded. All right, officer. And there's like, all right. They were looking me again. What's going on? But anyway, so that was the thing. And so that went on for three days. And then they finally told me that they've got the gun. And I can have myself in next day. So I just thought, here you go. It's all sweet. I'll take the rap for the possession of the firearm. And that's the least I can do. And I'll just go down for that. Maybe three, four years. I'll be happy with that. Not on the original when you knocked my door in my hand. No, that wasn't on the work for me. But what I didn't expect. So, yeah, they said they stood down. So everybody relaxed. But I didn't expect Lovelock to come and get me. I didn't think he was. I thought he would have stood down but evidently he didn't want to wait. So it was and I was telling someone that I didn't when I found out next I found out next day. I was at someone's house. I literally was behaving like my last night on the street. Now I'm going to court. I've got my puff sorted out. I've got my money sorted out. I've got a bird coming out to see me to sort of empty my bag for me so I can go on with a smile on my face. I couldn't get to me. I thought, okay, I'm away for a couple of years. But when I woke up in the morning and someone where I was hiding and said, because it was my sister, half-sister of the police didn't know about, said, ah, do you know where's Rose? I said, well, because they've shot her mum. I was like, literally I can't explain it to people that this feeling that came over me was almost like anger, shame, horror, vengeance and bile. It was like a furball. It really just tensed me. And then all I was interested in was how my mum was really after that. It was weird. Do you watch James Cagney? I love James Cagney. It's one of those James Cagney moments. What do you hear? What do you hear? Angels with doctor's faces. I love that film. There was a bit when his mum got shot by the police as well and they had to tell him in prison and he did this like and he smashed up the pin screws and he's battering everybody and one comes near him and I thought, that kid is nuts. And that's before we go any further. Literally, that's what I did when the policeman put his foot in the door. I went, what would James Cagney do to myself? That's how quickly it happened. What would James Cagney do? And before I knew about it it was in his mouth. If that makes sense. It was really weird. A couple of years later I had to go to a psychiatrist because I was under so much pressure. He told me, you've got to get rid of James Cagney. You've got him on your Facebook. You've got him all over the place. You've got to get rid of him because he's like this thing in you. Character. You're following it. You're following them all the way. Is that to take you away from your own self though being another character because you're battling being truly you. If you're not, that character takes you away like the mask. Some people take drinker drugs. You've created a character to then take you away from whatever shit you're dealing with. What happened was my mum's single mother I've got a poem called Six Rules. It's the Six Rules my mum gave me as a little boy. She said, first of all you keep your head a game if you can't do time. So it goes on the back. Keep your eyes on the ground, your ears peeled your manners and all these other things. She was the one that showed me James Cagney. She said, she sat me down on TV and goes, I want you to watch this man and see how he does to his mother. That's what she said to me and I sat there and watched this film saw this gangster going around battering people love these mum to bits mate. Couldn't say nothing about his mum to him. He's gonna she was staunch as well. She was right besides she loved him for what he was. Not what she wanted him to be and I just used to love that about her character. She showed me everything. She put Muhammad Ali on in front of me. She said, I want you to watch this man fight. Put your hands up in front of the TV and listen to the commentator. Yeah. So I was at school primary school and I went to children's home the only black kid in my children's home. I had 16 fights. I still remember to this day I went to fight like Ali. You know, like me feet fighting like that with these little races boy in the countryside that constantly wanted to fight me. But she showed me him. Were you bullied a lot at being the only black kid in the YOs in the children's homes? Was people trying to test you a lot? Mate, I suffered especially in the 70s. Can you imagine, the worst thing that could happen to me was watching Conta Kinti roots on a Sunday and then going to school on the Monday and you're the only black kid there. It was tough. What was your relationship with your mum when you were running out of prison? I don't even know what was the relationship. It was one of those things where she wasn't really a visitor. She was still doing what she was doing. She had other kids and you know basically she just sat me down and said listen I'm not asking you to commit crime. I'm not asking you to do that. I can't stop you she said but if you do it you need to know that you're going to do this on your own. You're responsibility to do your bird. Not us to visit you all over the place. If you want us to do that she said you better put some money inside. So that was it. I just knew if I go in prison I've got to go and do this on my thinking but I think my children's home gave me that resolve to sort of like manage that. When I was always good at not raising my head too high but not keeping it too low that makes it and choosing my fights at the right time. You've got to grow up fast. You've got to be clever. You can't just constantly fight someone. I've never understood someone doing that. Constantly fighting. You need to pick the right fight that stops you fighting. That makes sense. Yeah it's calculated. Of course it is isn't it. It's no point in me having to fight with him. All I'm going to do is stoke the fire that I'm a bully but if it's the big boy, if it's the big one and he's going around picking on people and you think well I'm going to go in there and if I lose I lose but at least I'm going to go out bullies as well as soon as you step up to the plate with them because they've got so many fucking enemies anyway people's automatically got your back. Automatic brother. That's the way I'd be thinking Chesmeve okay he's the biggest and the baddest he's trying to put it on people I'm going to step forward to him and what happens is then not only a lot of my friends from back in day best friends we were enemies at the start and because we stood forward with each other after everything settled down we became best friends because nobody wants constant lick over your shoulder so you build that alliance with the people who I think that's really important because it's like you know yourself that there's a lot of bullying goes in these institutions a lot of violence goes in there and so I don't want to be top dog I just want to do my burden go home really but also I'm not going to be picked on I always have a certain type of people around me that don't look for trouble but doesn't make sense but don't back down you know what I mean so we don't care if we lose but don't back down because if you back down that just creates all the other things doesn't it so just keep your head down so I've always been good in that way of making sure children's owners say there was abuse going on and everything in there and then until you're old enough to defend yourself you've got to go in bundles and it's got to be you need someone in that group brave enough to say I'm going in first you're not coming in on you're coming in afterwards and you'd like you need to start I don't know the start is that with the screws or the abuse the violence everything they was again um a screw I only had two fights in this in I was at a shot sharp well one screw beat me up what is that a shot sharp it's like a treatment you used to give there's like regimented yeah short sharp a shock short sharp shock yeah so yeah it's it's almost like when I went to Portland and I went no is it Lewis he literally bat he took me out the cell and batted me just because I wouldn't go in exercise yard me given the large and I was that ain't going to exercise I was I'm on remand he was like yeah he went to everyone banged up come and got me took me to the toilets and said right gross boom before I could even move he fipping caught me pucker boom like that and I was like oh I went down like that and he grabbed me by my shirt and just threw me across the toilet pisses everywhere I'm when I was embarrassed I'm on the floor and he went now you fucking get that sorted out you can and I was sitting there and I'm like this is tough man what am I going to do and then he's I heard him come back I thought I don't care I just jumped up and steamed into him he bats they batted me but the point was I steamed into him the bell went and when the bell went all the other screws came and when they found out I was being taken out I saw in lockdown he got in trouble so that taught me a big lesson I thought yeah next time you try and do something illegal on me mate I'm gonna make the loudest noise I can because it would bring the light on them right so but listen I need I'm one of them people that when special I went to prison I like everything to be black and white that's what you can do that's what you can't do I don't like middle grounds and I think that's a very dangerous ground to be in so if I go Portland ball still for example tough postal I loved it it was in my element because it's regimented it's got structure it tests your ability you as a person right and you're you are on your own this is so far to people to visit you you really got to make your way in that place in Portland rather than I've got a couple of visits coming they ain't gonna happen man you really got to knuckle down and put your graph together and you know and get it going on but I was always very lucky and then what happened was before I could actually face all that madness between my 18th and 20th and 21th birthday my mom got shot so once I went back in prison any time after that I just got a different treatment I got me on sale governors was giving me phone calls I knew everybody in the prison I knew me so the screw just so you got loads of cousins you have doing a single sale I got please governor please give me a single sale because everyone wants to everyone to know I knew around the area we all wanted to be you know within each other but I like single sales so what was it like then when you had the for the knife the for the gun so when you had the coppers looking for you for the gun and then your mum get shot what was going through your mind then I want revenge straight away I was gonna yeah what was the coppers name who shot your mum Douglas Lovelock did you know him prior no I've heard of him so what was the full story what was the reason to come in and shoot your mum can you understand but why they came into your house with guns if you put one out in a cougar I've never denied it this is why I'm saying you'll understand this later on when we go into it but I clearly understand why they went into my mum in that way and then when people bring me that argument I have to explain it properly to them I don't want them having this loose you know this negative bias without having the full facts I'm saying hey what they did to your mum's out of order no but what I did to them was out of order you can't you can't put a gun in a policeman's mouth and expect them to come to you with kids gobs on it's just not done as I was expecting something but that's why so I put the gun down because it narrowed it narrowed down in order me getting shot you know I'm dealing with now I'm just on the run shoot on sight then and up yeah so but now I've got the gun the fact the gun I definitely would have got it quicker but I thought yeah like I'm saying it was it was revenge I wanted and I was sort of like yeah I'm gonna wait mum dies she's only got five years to live but it was eating me up I was looking to blame everybody else for other things my own short fallings whether it's my life whether the surroundings around me even when I'm shooting you're so desperate to not have the blame put on you even though the blame's on you right if I was going yeah it's your fault your fault your fault your fault it can be a very destabilizing situation but for me it was my mum in it so I didn't care I was willing to take the flak you know so that was that was one of the burdens I wanted to cough in it and there were some times I just felt it difficult looking at her when did you get to see her mum after she got shot two days later even though you were on the run I got so they I went on the run for two whole days three days then they shot her on the Saturday morning I handed myself in on a Sunday and then I went to court on a Monday so what you see today the lockdown that's what they gave me I was the first one to get it but they called it house arrest same rules I couldn't only come out for an hour I can only drive around a certain area I can only go to shops to get essential things why did they give you bail because my mum got shot they tried to balance it I didn't even want bail I said I don't want bail I don't want to deal with you I don't want nothing from you because you didn't want to see your mum either because you were ashamed I know because I was still playing the game that makes sense I just automatically went into that mode of that mode I've been doing it for so long it almost not secondary but I have to survive that moment but that particular time I actually really didn't care I just thought I need to get in I need to see my mum I tried to get to the house before that but I couldn't get to it it was surrounded by police armed response see if you had the gun on you and armed response came through your door and started firing shots so you could have put things like out a couple of copies yeah I think I think but saying that I didn't fire the first time so I don't know if I would fire that makes sense it's not my nature to take a life I've always told this to people I think that's why I get in trouble because I don't do that ultimate move to get away I don't think you're nice and worth it that makes sense what was it like seeing your mum then being shot it was horrible the troops coming out of her fucking is horrible mate and then the worst thing about it is that people were still questioning me and she just looked at me and said did you do it I said no I'm that honest with my mum if I had done it I would have said I'd done it I wouldn't let you take pain from me and then lie to you on top of you I would let you know I did it I'm really sorry when she said you shouldn't do it it's mum I didn't do it it's not hard to hate you because it was my fault so was it my fault it's not it isn't I took responsibility in the end but at that time I found it very difficult yeah it all plays a part so the corporal who run in and fired a shot what was his excuse was your mum running towards her was your mum being fired he said he thought you saw movement do you think that you were there to be killed no I was going to be killed so the bullet was made to give maximum impact on me they had the warrant signed it was signed by Heard and Thatcher so he was there to kill maybe the other ones in Brixton that stood down might not be there to kill but he was a specialist that was his job how many people came through the door there was 40 and one fired did not see his hands slipped nope he fired pointed at everybody and asked questions he wasn't fired or anything he never lost his job he was found not guilty not guilty for what though what they stitched us up they charged him with GBH unlawfully and wound him with intent that's an impossible charge to prove that means they're saying that he left the police station to shoot my mum he left the police station to kill me so there shouldn't have been no intent on my mother's charge at all that was the trick that was when I started to okay these people are clever the other 40 coppers there the day were they a witness for the man who shot your mum all give statements no one saw nothing in reality it happened that quick they didn't know she was shot is anyone my mum said I've been here the other officer said what are you talking about they thought he fired a warning shot that's the confusion of it all so it's like you can do what you want if it's your house in the surrounding what they should have done was really did the megaphone bit but they didn't want that so it was a sniper shit wasn't it some people said my mum said she didn't hear the door so that means they jimmied it snuck in it's really hard for me to talk about it this way because the years have passed and I've mellowed right but at that time I was angry but what made it difficult for me to stay angry is that my mum didn't actually show no anger it was really weird she was like listen these things happen you know my mum we need to hate the police no man not all police are bad that was her so if she's not angry it just made me look stupid staying angry even though I was angry I think I resolved myself to just look after her being my bit and rehabilitation so I still found that difficult to do for her because she's your mother but yeah that went off about 10 years so your mum she was on the wheelchair paralysed from the chest downwards and how was that for you looking for revenge and your mum's sitting there calm peacefully accepting it well enough she's peacefully I'm just saying that as a mother that we didn't see that side was she doing that for your sake though I think she might probably do it for my sake because I think if she said to me I hate the police I would have gone on one I would have just gone on it I just would have honestly a lot of people were very scared for me I mean I just didn't make no I made a conscious effort to not have no one close to me again I've been like that ever since once you get close to me I don't even want you near me again very cold then to come towards that you don't want to feel your heart must have been ripped right out of you I'm having you take no responsibility for me whatsoever and it took me to a point now it's like I'll come to a point now I won't even move from the scene of the crime if you said I'm calling the police I won't budge I will not move, I won't do nothing I won't go on the run, I won't do none of those things and if I even hint there's a corner you're going to call the police I'll call them for you if that makes sense I'm not leaving those scenes in the crime that's what the effect of it was but it was very difficult and then you've got a lot of people trying to feed that anger into us as well the politics of it all and so it was a very but you live in the bubble right I wasn't politically aware I'm not socially aware at times I'm still a naive black man in that sense not so much naive as a person because I was very lucky with my education I was well the children's arm when I took it up they gave me a really good education and I think that was quite a useful thing for me later on in life I could fall back on that education to make a go of something a lot of time people don't get that opportunity so like I'm saying it went on for a couple of years I lost my first two daughters because of the depression and the anger and the management I had with them domestic violence got worse I was just a mess I left them two when I was three and four then after two years I had my boy Cook Miles a boy to go with him a brother or sister so I had two with her then I left him them two when there was four and then I had another one and then he had another one then I left them all of them I left at four, every one of my kids I've left them at four I think it's just some psychological shit in me just scared to go past that to become vulnerable and knowing that they can I wasn't in a good place Cogs me taken in cocaine, heroin, weed I'd lost it, completely lost it I came on one day I came on one day and someone come in my house turned the gas on and took the fucking buttons off it's only I do not save me it saved me because I had a budget meter run out run out for the budget for the budget meter it ran out and as I came into the house I could smell something and Hannah and Han went let me touch a lie but no and she was like what what what I go fuck sake don't turn nothing on and then we opened all the doors when we finally turned on no buttons on the cooker, none and that's when she said it's just getting too dangerous for the kids who was that? we have no idea we have not someone said to me do you think it was police making I said I don't know brother that was a weird one yeah that is a weird one no one thought it was stolen we could find they took the buttons off my cooker were you proper active then though? yeah I was always active so how did the Brixton riot start in 85? how were you at the forefront of that? how long after the shooting as well from your mum Jerry? the shooting happened in the morning and the riot probably kicked off about five remember I'm not so straight away that day I wasn't involved in that because I'm still on the run so for me it's all sketchy for me I'm still in this little box over here I don't know what's going on I actually think not many people know my mum's been shot that makes sense I have no idea the impact of what's happened I'm just still sulking in my own mad world of self pity and then at one point I started to just live with it but yeah the riot started and another girl did it she just took the brick at the window feisty little girl she says well I love that woman I can't even say her name but she used to visit my mum a lot she's one of my mum's friends so a lot of my mum's friends went to the police station all lined people people from Brixton proper ghetto people they weren't having it at all like a blood clot then please and started to dash up the thing and then boom it just kicked off and then of course that was the chance to everyone you know for us that's an opportunity to sort of like loot the flipping places a bit of social commentary and a bit of skullduggery at the same time we get best of both worlds but yeah it was what do you think of the riots then in 1985 Baldin's getting burnt, I think over 200 corpus injured I they actually made me go on TV lots of them to stop is that why you get bail as well do you think? I would have really been yeah they said if I was reminded in custody they'd be on the right of course more shit ain't that funny though no one did get bail I was like I didn't even want it that's the thing about it I try and look at everything from every side that no man should be getting shot straight away without anything to do with that you don't just get in a house, sneak through the door and start popping off shots so to shoot an innocent woman and if they've come in to kill you do you know what, it is understandable especially if you've put a fucking gun in a corpus mouth but because they've shot your mum then the the corpus understand why the riots started as well but the thing about it is that we're not all judged by the same thing are we it's like I got two years I walked out of my house police drove past pulled me over, found the jiggler in my pocket with a pair of black gloves, two years did you know how the judge found me guilty, he said if you think he was thinking about a crime for just one second find the man guilty so we're like what everyone thinks of a crime sometimes that's the worst summing up in the world isn't it I'm gone finished, finished me off mate with Lovelock they did it their way round so we're saying but he's a skilled trained, I'm not him trained it's just off the hit training isn't it, bottle, you hope you can get it off tomorrow I won't be the fastest gun in the area will I it could be someone else but we'll pull out the knife, get that punch in so you know I like I'm saying he did what he was trained to do that makes sense and if you put all the bits together you can see it why but at that time it was a political game for the body so they use it that way have you ever came face to face, is it Lovelock never met him never would you what would happen if you met him 10 years ago I'm going to hold my hand because on the mental health issue I think that is he still alive I'm going to try and set that up because I think though if I'm going to come forward in my life I did my name is Earl, have you seen that program I did my own fashion this is my record you know how much restorative justice I've got to do to clean my slate so I literally went round one by one doing all these different things free, whether it's probation I worked with, did I work just people in care so all the ones I've been battling with I've had to go back to them and say what can I do to bring something positive to someone in that children's home or someone in that DC or someone in that ball stall who was going through those little nuances of things the bullying or the racism the screws can't hit one so yeah it was so with him now what I felt with Lovelock is that now I've done everything, I've thought there's only one bit left for me in my reality I know my mum still feels it, she does feel it for him, I know she does that's her nature, must have been tough on him as well she said she must have been a good woman she's honest, that's what I like about her she doesn't look at something what was your mum's background, where was she from she's from Jamaica look at this see that flag, you can keep that James see that flag that's the maroon flag, not the Jamaican flag the maroon flag and the maroons are the only free people in Jamaica, we've got our own land so this is a play a spiritual woman it's called a convented play a performance country I wrote that, this is me performing so I performed I wrote a spiritual woman based on the woman that she so when the riots started kicking off how long did the riots last for? three days was there anything good come from it? because nobody bricks them more by light they don't fuck about man, I know a few boys from Brickston and they are solid, they would look for any excuse to fucking cause a riot but with this kind of stuff it's good to make a stand in reality, like you say there's good and good coppers, bad coppers everywhere like your mum says, but to get in and shoot an innocent woman it's going to cause uproar especially if there's been racism in the 70s, 80s, 90s your whole fucking life there wouldn't have been the right if I got you no chance there's probably been street parades everybody's home everybody's house is safe for today but we all know, your mother it's the matriarch of the soul of everything I don't care what culture you go to most cultures, the mother is an important element so I think once they saw that was your mother is getting injured in your own home yeah, so they went out there how many people are rioting? the whole of Brickston was rioting the fucking hundreds was nits the whole place was burnt down buildings was burned, people was killed it was a tough one when did they tell you did you tell them to stop on TV? how hard was that for you? well, it wasn't because I actually thought we had them that makes sense, I thought this is it you're not thinking then to make a deal saying that forget me, I thought the policeman could not get out of this argument it's impossible you've shot a woman in the house I don't care what you told me I just felt the more riots we were doing it was taking away from her to defend that right she's got that's very rare to get older than one but of course we've discovered no, it wasn't clever enough you know what I mean so I would still say to them calm it down because we were smashing up the place of Brickston, some places I've got shot, we know these people as well so there comes a point where do you think that defeats the purpose? it does defeat the purpose because you've gone beyond the purpose to just greed and just absolutely causing it I'm all for people doing street parades and people fighting for freedom and justice and everything but when you start doing things through vengeance anger, frustration, setting things on fire then you've got to question that also because the words are great it's great to create noise can create awareness it can create so many things like people who they run around and they'll do that thing that it's great to get people uniting to create awareness and create change but when you start destroying other things with it then it just raises fucking too many question marks where when you're going to get the change everybody's got goodness in them I hate the fact of race, religion I hate the fact of borders and everything everything's divided I believe divide and conquer everybody just fighting each other and hating on each other and really we're all human beings I don't give a fuck the colour of your skin I don't give a fuck what your religion is what your belief is as long as you're a good person that's what morally really should matter I think like I was saying I think where we were before a lot of my actions was based on greed in the past so yeah I would go to there's going to be a riot in Brixton we're going to have a placard and we're going to make some money that's an opportunity I told someone the riots is like when you're in the visiting room someone gets caught someone gets caught swallowing and all the screws swarm in on this one character and they all swarm in everybody else is like and it's finished they're all sitting there like oh mate you're unlucky mate and we were looking at each other who went through it first because we were all sitting there and that's the riots I think the same riots we look for that moment to then go well yeah man the police is over there fight them because some of the people that's fighting did it's almost like when you said gangsta I said no I'm a go after you've got some great fighters I'm sure you know in Scotland there's some great fighters who've never done a day's bird in their life but they can have a row but they're not thieves they work right they're still standing there so an arm rubber and they probably do that arm rubber in a straightener you know what I mean even the arm rubber is going oh yeah yeah all the gangsters are like I know and Glasgow can't fix ya it's just that dangerous it's just the way you have bushes and pop out and put one in your fucking head it'll pop one out on the other end but would he's actually the staunch is what I saw when you're doing someone don't talk about this every day the staunch I think I'm staunch I think I'm pretty staunch I would stand beside you James if you're rearing the right I don't care if we're going down together I'll still allow no one to pick on you in front of me my own conscience won't let me do that that makes sense we'll go down together then at least we both have black eyes we'll be looking each other well at least he knows at least he knows if he comes after us again we'll get him this time you know I mean we're like we're just ambushing me he's not as strong as before he was yeah but so yeah it's just a funny old thing but yeah some of the people that was writing were fighters and had quite good intellect so they was taking up the cause you know yeah the police come on everybody and then throw a brick then we're like yeah come on everybody and then you see a couple slip off right with their little trolley I'll be back in a minute I'll be back in a minute but growing up from a rough estate like you're always looking to cut corners where I was from like my mum and dad used to rig the electricity and they used to do my dad used to do short lifting stealing blocks of cheese like if there was a riot in the street they'd be thinking the same right we can go and fucking tan that because the police are over there so even though people are doing it for the right reasons there's still always an agenda how you can make money from it that's the only thing that's the only thing we've got isn't it it's not like that's what I'm saying to you the people that I'm with I hate that word not gangster I'm not saying it's a bad or negative word because there are gangsters out there yeah a gangster is just a weak man control another weak man it's not a gangsters a weak person it's not I'm a money maker I like making money sometimes if I had to put a gun in me and look I'm saying when we go back to the police officer my attention is not to kill him I don't want to kill him that's not my what the fuck was going through your head though at that moment to put the gun in his mouth were you high? no I was high the week before you were on a calm down I was on a calm down I was on sulfate sulfate and the M1R trait and I've been smoking weed I wasn't really into drugs so paranoid as fuck I was a little bit paranoid I tell you when the paranoid come in before that happened they'd been searching my house for two or three days I didn't even know I had no idea there was in my house until I went to the awful license and they told me you know the police have been gaining around everytime you leave I've been blaming my daughter for moving my headset thinking it's been her leave daddy's headset you don't know what I'm talking about but it was being them and I don't know it's just so once all the rights and that finished how long was the court case for love lock a year they did it in January when it was cold there wouldn't be no riots 6th January the 6th I think just before my birth the police not worried that he never got charged after that when he got not guilty what was he getting not guilty not proven what did he get? he got not guilty were they not worried that who was the man in America get fucking beaten with the king the recent one oh king the boy when they were all around the cars and they think they don't know if they beat the police officers all get away with it and I think they were right they planned the riots to happen they planned the trial to happen at a certain time and they realised they have to do it in the winter time so they did it in January it was snow on the floor and I think again the people that moment of weakness for the police they controlled that situation so there was no chance there was going to be a riot really and I think we've got the same type of racism as they do in America I think it's slightly different even though we've got it over here it's not quite the same basically the cops in police, American police they walk with guns don't they how bad was it then at that time in Scotland we don't really see that much racism it does go on but it's not as as brutal as it was and it happens everywhere for me it's still happening more than I've ever seen it you see it quite frequently you see it on social media you see it on I don't know if people because I've got more phones now but you see it quite frequently now what was it like then 70s, 80s, 90s for yourself in Brixton how was the police, how did they treat you well it was horrible I call it occupation I mean it was bad but you see I'm not going to perpetuate I'm going to start again the battle was you have to remember what they're trying to it's the line we're talking about in Brixton it's a no-zone go area so we're nowhere compliant whatsoever so we're very aggressive towards the police but there's also a lot of fighting within ourselves because it's a very violent time if it wasn't police it was amongst ourselves and there was that wall of silence so what you had was just like most most things it was the first generation of black people that come to England was experiencing racism differently than those black people that were suffering racism in the 80s two different ballgames so in the 70s it was no blacks, no Irish no dogs, the Irish was thrown in there as well even the Scottish was thrown in there as well bastards it was all thrown into that one pot I don't think the Irish and the Scottish and the Jamaicans and the Caribbean will go on really well with each other I don't think I ever had an argument with someone Scottish or Irish because we seem to get on much the racism from the British though the police I'm not sure if I can put that to honest racism because they was wicked to their own kind have you seen what they did to their own kind they're wicked mate so if they're going to do that to their own kind what chance have I got when I get nicked or someone Irish gets nicked or someone Scottish gets nicked they don't even want us to be doing these type of things so for me it's almost about the game is this is the game this is what my new project becomes again this is the game and this is what happens when you get involved end of we all get beaten we all get the junction we all get the flipping handcuffs we all get it for the same reason come back to him and see what happens to you come throw a gun on him and see what happens to you come kick that screw that cause with his head see what happens to you not go kick that cause with his head and then you expect him to go okay Michael, quietly just come with me so that's not the society we really want right do you think it's easy then to throw a race into it you just can throw it in there just to put fuel to the fire yeah you can just throw it in the time you want but racism can be overcome what you might call racism I call it ignorance sometimes or lack of information some people are just fed history is told by the victors so they're not going to tell my history in the 70's in schools we're going to just hear about the British's victories and the British Bulldog spirit and the British comedy and the British actors that's how we grow so you've got this sense of pride amongst the British in school but they would call themselves names they might call me a nigger or a wog with my mates, the Jockney if it's from up north or something else there's so much levels of tribalism is what I like to call it going on it's ridiculous so you can have some two people which I have got a couple of friends will pucker together two support Westam two support Millwall, two support Chelsea they all go their different ways on match day they all come back match day they hate each other, they've Chelsea this Westam stat, they call each other names but they're best pals my mates used to come around with me I didn't take black people amongst them I couldn't take black people mixed my powers they just would struggle with them if that makes sense they didn't have what I would call the sense of humour to laugh at yourself because that's the key isn't it you've got to be able to laugh at yourself if you can't laugh at yourself I find you a dangerous person because you're going to be very sensitive to everything I'm not going to be able to say nothing to you I'm going to be able to take a joke give a joke, be the butt of the joke that's what it's all about that's what for me brings that camaraderie so when I went to Portland they said you're not going to survive in Portland they don't like blacks that's what they told me they stopped the bus got out their bats the screws walked up to Dan the coach and said we don't like blacks and we don't like Londoners in gross you are black Londoner and I'm sitting in the back of the coach I'm in trouble I don't even know what's going to happen to me now and that same set of screws that was saying you gross, you this, you that was treating me with a different mentality now because they had the love of sports and they love a man that tries because I'm one of them once in the football pitch I would run every inch of the blade of gross that's how I love it, I don't know how long you play still play so do you run every inch of the blade of gross yeah of course in the last 30 minutes but you know what I'm saying though I think the football pitch is a great analogy for pitch battles of life I can tell your character by watching you play football I really can, I really can I can look at you for, oh my god you've got to get one up the arse of him this is a fairly game but yeah so I think it's very easy to stick in racism into a place as you say there, tribalism it's important everybody wants to feel part of something I just want to feel part of something supporting a football team I think I read something feeding bread and wine and people forget what the real purpose is people just want to feel part of something what is it going to a football match and shouting and shouting and getting anger coming back, shouting and shouting but they got all down with it, fuck is it really but you know what I'm talking about I've done racist football supporters that's going to them games I said me tell you something about those racist football supporters when I've got a player game up in north and it's like you know jizzling cold and miserable and you've got these tough northerners tackling you and you've got the side of all these other northern hard men that want to fight you that hardcore crew, they're on your back we love them because they're going to raise the voice they're going to raise my spirit and they're going to be there in the trenches with me that's what I love about Millwall supporters they're great, they don't care the size of the audience, they're going to support their team and go all the way with it so that tribalism is very important call it racism because you're not part of that tribe oh I'm not part of it so you must be racist it goes beyond that, it's not about that it's about something chaos for me how long did Love Lock's trial gone for? a week and what happened when they got there not guilty were you in prison at any time? I was out I was sitting at my mum's she went to court every day was there any compensation your mum never got any compensation or nothing she got compensation she got compensation I was because the compensation together they said she had 5 years to live but she survived longer so I just said to her do you want me to go and get you some more money she goes no mum you survived more than 5 years I'm here and I'm begging them nothing so I said Myra for that but I think that that was one of the things I thought we should have the system looked at and said if you said you've got 5 years to live and you survived more then the rollover rolls over for another 5 years not you got 5 years they survived 10 years and are doing no more to that no no that's just wrong so what was your life like were you still getting in trouble after that or did you try and screw them up? no I was still in trouble don't make your eyes fuck this man I've kind of blamed yourself for that and there's a lot of other shit happening I believed in my own hype you know what I mean? did the Brixton enhance your name then where you thought you were something special I was you know already how these things work James if you make the headlines or the press for your court case that's it isn't it and there's certain certain things that give you certain authority and command of that sense so I'm not saying it was a well known argument and the argument of people hearing that I put the gun in the mouth kind of like made it folklore but it was still a silly move that makes sense it was a move that was not really fought out properly like I said to you I was there and I just thought what would James Cagney do but yes I don't know what I present in after that I was because I couldn't get a job mate I couldn't get no work I couldn't get nothing I was just left with crime I didn't do it at first I slowed down a little bit but then after like 15 years of not working for no one and not having a job and finding it difficult I just got used to the lifestyle I didn't know nothing no different so there was one or two times I tried to pull out I just didn't have the arsehole really and then I think when I got cocaine that really ripped me up completely I thought I wanted to die I tried to commit suicide twice what did you try and do well it always happened after I had a session on the pipe calm down do you smoke in a coke? I was smoking the coke I was serving you know for a couple of years so it's not like because I you're washing it with ammonia ammonia and bicarb fucks we had banana that I didn't touch it I wouldn't touch it and in one day I was out somewhere someone gave me a spliff I had a little bugle and then someone went you're wasting it because what this is a Charlie spliff mate it's that small it's beautiful blah blah blah they gave me the pipe I kept saying I hit that pipe mate I've never come down since I was chasing that dragon fucking years trying to get that first high how much do you think you spent on it my mum said she doesn't know much I spent they think I spent a lot of money on it all those turns all the bad stuff that you've done all those years in prison for just creating an addiction then isn't it well because I went from I went from there because like I was saying I went after my mum got shot there was I got crime watch there's my crime watch court case which I won what happened allegedly they said I robbed the bank right but I won it was on crime watch and my name was brought up and I had to go to trial blah blah blah and they tried to measure my face and all things like that but we won that court case that gave me a full sense of a full sense just gave me a full sense that I could continue doing what I was doing which is what I did and then of course I got into the pipe and my trade started to change from going from these other bits of work and I went into fraud the next thing though I'm shoplifting now I'm shoplifting I'm shoplifting tins and rubbish I'm homeless I'm sleeping on the floor I even slept in St Thomas's hospital but all that time I had an anchoring of being a poet it was always with me so it was almost I had this hidden dream in me but I just didn't think I was going to ever get it it was just a nice dream you know what I mean and so I think I reached the point I collapsed my health went all over the place my mental state was gone I was finished 6th stone, 7th stone I went up to about 8th stone I was always big quite muscular my trousers just fallen off me my skin was grey, my hair was brittle I was a mess everyone just thought I was a right off and I thought it was deserving I thought I deserved to be there I didn't think I deserved any better I thought I was very lucky to stay alive for how long I was gradually I got a little bit better and then I was realising that I needed to do something for my mum really that was it for me to just watch her do what she did and bring up the kids do you think you slipped? spiral down that because seeing your mum as well is that your escape from blaming yourself to just fucking smoke yourself and oblivion and just hide from the pain I was still waiting for my mother to die I'd really got rid of everything close to me so I had nothing left to hold on to apart from my own personal revenge that makes sense so it was having debt against yourself it is against me because I'm literally wasting my ability of what I am capable of doing and the only one who believed in me was my mum she said he is talented and just needs to get it out what age were you then when you started making the changes? 36 what was that moment what was that day you had that when I was going through my change at Ferry I had mains at Ferry I don't fuck this when I used to sit and get mad with it when I was bang on it I used to look around and think look at the fucking state of these people but yeah I was fucking the worst because I was always the first and last to leave I owed everybody fucking money I had a funny bastard people just fed me because I was always fucking I used to look around and I used to think look at the fucking state of these people even though I was a mess I used to think I was always going to get out I used to clean people's houses when I'm on the pipe because I'd be sitting again your house is terrible and I'd be moving and doing what just get on the pipe I just can't sit here with this rubbish I'd be devised this wouldn't make the game change but I started to do some counselling come bravado chat with man on it there was more to a point where four or five of us would sit together and not just go down that old route of the crackhead eat some food have a conversation play some music leave it on the side just find yourself at least and then gradually gradually it started to pin away but the turning point was Shelly put it on me she said I heard you could write and I said I can who's she? the mother of my boy she said well go on then write something and I don't know where it came from I just sat down with Charlie prayer pain of cocaine runs through my very vein as a slave to its master I bear a shackled chains shackled to my bottle I have no focus with life why should I marry my Charlie is my wife foil, pen, bottle that's all I need to make me tick but things won't be in the falling place until the lighter clicks and then I'm on my pipe my life's motorbike going down that rocky road and I took a puff I feel like an ugly toad what should I do where should I go I need more of this devil's gold creeping, weeping feeling depressed worn but two would not be told silence of the outside world is loud it begins to hurt I need another stone to take away this dead set what am I really doing this must sound really sad why should I be doing this you must think I'm really mad this is becoming serious no longer should I does it feel like a game this is one beast my friends I truly have to tame I cannot blame the dealers for on your service is what they feel I can only blame myself for enjoying this deadly thrill and I know I don't need this it's all in my mind I must believe in myself and self respect I must find so I'm going to throw away my bottle and put my futures in my hand and against all adversity I know I will stand but the journey that's in front of me will be hard from the start but I have new ambitions that's going to be running ruling my heart for I want to see the world without the Charlie mist I want to enjoy the more simple things that my girlfriend given me a kiss I would love to hear the laughter of my child enjoying life walking down the aisle going to meet my wife love and care and kindness that's all I need to make me tick things begin to fall in place and everything would just click but do not give me credit for being bold because there was more to loving Charlie I remember being told I've done in your memory all that yeah that was your first ever poem that's my first poem I wrote fair play mate and I put it on the wall every day and I'd read it every day and do one bit of that poem that line just to remind yourself just to get myself better I'd buy my daughter a trainer he goes out to the shop he never comes back with nothing for himself never it's always for one of my kids I'd spend the money on them because I can't go back and get that train off their foot can I if I sold you the train I wouldn't feel no way coming back to you and say James give me that train I'll get a new pair tomorrow how many kids have you got? seven you've lost two mothers they're causing your life were you clean then? no I wasn't always clean I think I didn't get 100% clean until maybe because it is if you've done it it's one of those things I keep telling people I'm not one of them people that says don't show me the crack I don't want to see it, don't mention it I think it should be on the menu of life I think I should be on my menu start crack I'll have a bit of cocaine what year is that? is it a good rock? that's where the self-control comes in when you have to hide it build barrier put it somewhere you're not in control I need to be in control so it's there on my list cocaine's on it it's as simple as that there's other things on there I can take I like my Jeffery cakes I like that instead it's all there 100% clean though it took a bit longer for me to really beat those most of the time the problem come is other people taking it as well and then they presume they can take it in front of you and you're going to join in after some time I do it wasn't my social but it's a burden on me if I do that because it takes me to the next level my nose goes my back goes my paranoia comes back in it doesn't work for me so the key is just keep it on the list I'm entitled to do it if I want to and if I do it don't let it impact no one like it did before when was the last time you were in prison? 2005 so 16 years ago I was clear up 10 years before that how many years do you think you've done in prison? I don't know a lot of its demands little bits of sentences there I've never been one that got a big sentence I think what they've done to me is character I think now and then you've got to do a bit of birds even up the life itself I've got to wave so much sometimes I get put down I'm glad I've got the break so what you're doing with your life now then because I know you are very anti authority hated the police probably what killed them at one point to then because the assaults on police have risen over the last few years you're trying to bring that down how come? well I've been doing non-violent communication for years now it's a tool that I've had to use for myself to help me with my own violence and expression myself because I didn't know how to do it properly but once it was brought to me it was something I could share and what people don't realise is the work I do now I did that when I was on the landing I came out and then did the work this is what I was doing on the landing I was writing the prisoner's letters I was going to the judication with them I was sorting out their visits and stuff like that I was going for their law books for them and their court cases so these things of helping someone on the landing was not new to me in fact it gave me probably a better edge when I came out dealing with some of these organisations because they're sitting there telling people oh they love us in there and I'd be like no we didn't love you they didn't know how I was serving no we didn't love you, you had dinner there was a pudding there that's what we came for and after that I realised that good social restorative justice doesn't really exist and the real word what they were meant to do was bringing these peer mentors that people look like them that can speak to them so of course that was my opportunity because some of the places I've been served in, some of the officers knew me and knew that I had this non-violent way because of my last sentence in 2005 I was a full-time poet then I was a taurian I was in the band you've heard the Halliband three, the sopranos the year I was with them for two years and then we often, I was in the band called the Bacons I was the black cunt do you know what the word cunt means it means a waste of space it doesn't mean what people think it means it's just been somehow got crossed over in culture I use it all the time we need to own it back man it's a great word people really hate that word but they don't understand the nuances I've got a couple of friends they could use probably three words around other words with cunt and a whole conversation like mastermind it's all the different tones I can use it as a positive as well you're a lovely bestie you're a lovely cunt but I've always been I'm not a violent man violent man but I will fight I'm not a gangster but I will stick up for myself I was always like that in prison I was in the befriended screen I was a Samaritan they trained me to be a Samaritan while I was in there so I was the bully rep so with these little roles I've always been able to hold because I've had a good education as well it helped me in good stead so when I came out it was quite easy to continue doing it and all my projects have got prison numbers names so I've got a project called Canteen I've got one called Unlock another one called Joint Enterprise they're all like spun off the actual negative words that we were grown with to turn it around so it makes it easier for me to sell it when I go in the prison I say this project's called Unlock what the fuck did you do that you've got unlucky stuff what do you think looking back at a life may cool I think it's I think I think it's been I've been blessed and it's interesting and I know they talk about my mum shooting the riots and everything I can't even put it into words brother I really don't know how to say but what I will tell people is that good is good if it's in you it will rise if it's not in you it just doesn't come up it's just going to be negative so I've always believed that there's good in me and I feel that if I'm given the opportunity to shine that I can do it and where I am now I'm comfortable with what I'm doing that's why this is what we're talking about now this new project I'm doing called Past the Baton I felt no way to turn around and say to people listen this is about you know showing respect for someone who's meant to be just doing their job right not only they're doing their job we're just aggressive we're spitting at them we're violent with them these people have got families sisters brothers they just want to do a job and that's the society that we've grown I don't want to be part of that I really don't even love love he's a human being yep he's not my mum I was part of that triangle but he still suffered didn't he he must have that's the thing with coppers man they get such a rough ride but I don't know if you know we're obviously doing this show I've interviewed a couple the shit that they go through the PTSD they struggle a lot of them battling with addictions alcohol there it is there the drugs man like domestic violence their houses are fucked and the things that they see day in day out they see the negatives in life every day they do a lot to protect us to roam the streets and people need to take that into consideration I was always grew up fucked the police and this and that but then you come to a certain age and you think really fucking shut up who are you gonna call if your daughter goes missing if your daughter goes missing am I gonna call one of the gangsters from Brixton Road I'm not am I I'm gonna be on the phone 999 people really need to understand the work and everything that they do to help protect us yeah and just understand that they are there to do a good job yes there are pricks I've dealt with them I've had a couple of beatings back in the day there was a guy called Muscle's back in the day where I was from in poor so he kicked the shit out of me man I was only like 22 bastard and you all and I was like bastard but you're still in your mind you'll think dirty bastard and it's in your mind you see them you go I hate these bastards but you had the fucking right because I could have killed people I was fucking steaming and I tell you what I learned as well by doing all this there's a thing I didn't know there's a thing called the nine principles yeah I didn't know the place there's a book I think called the nine principles as well yeah and that's the thing the police has got its own nine principles and it's undercurrents everything what it's all about and if you really read it the police is just an extension of me the citizen so if I'm saying to you lot it's quite acceptable to go up to that man and scream in his face and spit at him and call in names I'm telling you it's what to do to me really or to him in that sense so but we need to be a bit more human in life I think we've lost that now that's why my badge my badge I'm pointing together for this project is the swash you know the colour chart so I did a show six years ago called what can I do for you HUE happy urban experience and you're not allowed to come in my show and call yourself black or white you're not allowed to do it you have to put your hand or get the colour chart find your colour I'll find you more interesting now I'm Jamaican ginger so we've taken that concept and we've taken it further and now we've made it to a little badge we've got the whole colour tone of human colour tone on it and then we put human lives matter and I think that makes it easier for me to then go he might be a policeman but he's human and he's a victim and so if we can't hold out that hand of restorative of showing someone some kind of kindness the currency of kindness then you know I'm making a mockery of my own work if I can't take that big step and put my own bias to one side for the bigger good for something which could work in the end if we get the non-violent communication in there we can get the escalation of police officers and the thing is what I said to the police was when they came to me I said there's hard end you've got a 50% approval rate it's 50% so if you have a 50% I'm not going to the hard end 10% the hardcore that's going to take too long I'm going to go at this end they have a 40% who's in the middle ground who's not quite sure where they fit do I fit the black lives matter do I fit with human lives matter do I fit with this over there gay or do I fit in the gender that's a divide again on that so we need that commonality to say this and why don't we just say we're human this is a human thing just be a fucking good cunt on that how was that then for you to be putting a gun in a copper's mouth to a copper shooting your mum to then changing how we look and how the police operate trying to protect them also I don't, there isn't it's just because of the field I'm in now just everything changes so going forward for the future what's all these other things that you're doing so currently I've got my poetry night it's called Doing the Lamb Before it's in Lamb Before we'll leave the link in the description if you can send me that there's a ticket out in sale I've got a new book coming out what's that called it's going to be written some of my pounds it'll be during the riot so you're going to get much more deeper understanding and I want them to stand, bring their place in this debate because I think once they're down, it's no longer a black riot it's just an uprising you know I'm doing the yeah, the parts and parts coming out and I've got this new piece of work I'm looking at called I'm Revealing My Situation which is Fagin you know I'm reviewing I've done a London version to that so it's going to be I've got to get that going and that's it really I've come to a point where I'm running for council for the Green Party so they've asked me to come back to that again I'm an older statesman now I'm nearly 60 James mate I think I'm still a young man I've got to accept now that I'm flipping the old fella now but you're doing good now which is the main thing try to do good to not make the wrongs right but we'll make mistakes in life we'll fuck up but if you can push through the darkness and start making changes and start bringing some positive love and light into the universe that's just all about and just telling people here's some tools what about when your mum how many times did you have that discussion with her did you ever sit and break down and say I'm sorry and she forgave you I'd imagine she was forgiving you straight away did you ever forgive yourself of course I've forgiven myself I've forgiven myself because I've done my restorative justice there's nothing to forgive I've restored that makes sense I don't think I need to forgive myself for my predicament but what I can say to you I've restored some of the damage that I've done and I'm proud of that it's whether I'm doing good it doesn't come into it I don't even want to pat on the back I just feel better doing it and I think that's an important thing and it's come from here for anybody that's watching it's maybe in the struggle especially battling for addictions you've been there what advice would you give for them Miko I was in battling for an addiction well like I'm saying you've got to let it out it's like you heard me do the Charlie prayer right so I love creative writing I think it's an opportunity to express myself and you know I could write it in any format but I write it from an inspirational point of view I like really good leaders so I just told people that you would stop when the right time for you is to stop if that makes sense but don't wallow it too long I think everybody can wallow I think that was the key that I learnt you can wallow you can be the self pity but there comes a point where you just got to dust yourself off and just say yeah I've told people about the 12 step program have you seen United Ones I love that program and what I love about it you can adapt it to your own I adapted it I became quite creative I didn't like the way they brought it to me so I said can I do my own bits my own poetry to express that just the same way they said yes so I did this whole thing and again it's not so much of me I think there's a lot of people giving me a lot of advice I tell people if you really have changed don't get some help as well don't feel so embarrassed I think the key to changing is vulnerability once you feel that you're vulnerable and you can feel that embarrassment that's a good time to change don't try and change when you're angry or you're clouded or you feel a bit guilty because you've been on a larger binge because I've done that many times when I've had enough man I'm not gonna smoke no more at the end of it oh my god what have I done so you know and the key is you for me the change came is when I just I made my own decision I think that's important for you as a person to have your own autonomy and say okay I've done this wrong what can I learn which you have heard me say I don't think I should apologize for anything but I should definitely learn from it I think that's the key here tell people they need to learn and then just find that self in them surround yourself with the right people may cool if I'm coming on to the end telling you our stories I appreciate it can I close with come something of course you can again I've always encouraged people to try and write and get the expression out that's what the drug is so one of the things we did was um when I did my last sentence it was based on the historical crime which means I've been straight 10 years a documentary was coming at me on TV and an ex-girlfriend saw me on TV and pressed charges and I was like shit and when I went away I was sitting in my cell and I was like I'm depressed and I brought this poem called locked in a pen so it's all those man that there has been away and understand they might understand what this poem is about and it goes locked in the pen all broken and lights in ruins and what brought me to this end man springing into action tucked in banged up behind the doors doors shut to the sound of the keys and the locks on the wrong side of the world blue jeans and striped shirts on the wrong side of the world walking round in circles it's only one day my boy comes to me, pays me a visit he said dad don't worry just like you I'm into crime and I thought what? father and son on the most wanted list both serving at their time tucked in banged up behind the door door shut to the sound of the keys of the locks on the wrong side of the world blue jeans and striped shirts on the wrong side of the world walking round in circles there is a question can the leopard ever change its spots can new tricks be learned but old, dogs and what example am I always on the edge and always on the slide like a broken needle scratching over prism records in again in again it's only bars and high walls one day my freedom will come and on the right side not on the wrong side I'll change the words to this song tucked in banged up behind the doors door shut to the sound of the keys of the locks on the wrong side of the world blue jeans and striped shirts on the wrong side of the world walking round in circles I've always wanted to do that in the James English show and I've done it Man up many talents Michael God bless you brother and keep doing the good fight comment your thoughts on this week's podcast thank you