 Hello everyone. Welcome to another IR capsule for the Shankar IAS Academy. Yesterday we talked about G20 and the result of the meetings and the importance of the decisions taken there. But before we finished celebrating the G20, out of the blue came a problem. It was most unexpected. We heard that the meeting between the Prime Minister of Canada and our Prime Minister did not go very well. It was a kind of frozen meeting people reported. Of course, even before there have been difference of opinion between Canada and India on one matter and one matter only. Canada is a good friend of India. We have a large Indian community there. We have been good trading partners. Thousands of Indians go to Canada to study. In so many ways as two democracies, we have been very friendly. But during the same time over the last 40 years or so, there has been a difference of opinion in which, about which, about the way Canada has been preaching its sick militants. Of course, all the Sikhs are not militants. They are all law-abiding citizens there. But among them, there has been a group of Khalistanis operating. And because Prime Minister Trudeau is dependent on them, on the Sikhs, for his slender majority in the parliament, he has been very gentle with them. In spite of the fact that India has been complaining about various activities undertaken by them, both in Canada as well as in India. The Prime Minister kept explaining that since this is his constituency of people, he cannot stop them from expressing their views. Fair enough. Expressing views is one thing, but intimidating the Indian diplomats or demonstrating outside the consulate and their high commission. These are not normal things. And so we have been pressing the Canadian government to do something about it. Of course, it was quiet for a long time, but it was during the farmers' agitation in India in which lots of Sikhs, Indian Sikhs were enrolled. There was some kind of sympathy in Canada. And they expressed it in various ways, while sending some people to India to support them, or even sponsoring some celebrities, singers, etc., to come and complain about India's dealing with the farmers. Such things happened and there was a certain amount of irritation. That time also passed, the agitation was withdrawn. And then very recently, we started seeing that the Sikh militants, the Khalistani supporters, had become very active in Canada and also in some parts of the United States and UK. They demonstrated in front of the Indian missions, even tried to break in and fly the Khalistan flag. All these things happened. There again, we told all these governments that this is unfair because fighting terrorism is a common responsibility of whole mankind. All of us. It is not something that somebody encourages terrorism and the others fight it. No. All of us have to fight terrorism. After 9-11 particularly, there is a higher sensitivity about terrorism because terrorism was not only in South Asia, but also in the United States itself and in Europe. So, there was a better understanding of the responsibility of each of these states. But there were occasions when we had to complain, we had to also ask for people to be extradited to India. People who have committed crimes abroad, normally the two countries have agreements to bring them back to their source and then put them in jail or whatever activity that can be taken. But a large number of extradition requests for Indian citizens who are operating in Canada, there was no response from the Canadian side. Again, on the ground that this will create unnecessary complications in their own internal politics. So, everything was working out smoothly. Occasionally, we complained and they explained and so on. It went on. It did not affect our bilateral relations. But it was at the very G20, which was a great success that this problem erupted. Now we know, it was not known at that time that Prime Minister Trudeau had mentioned to the Prime Minister of India that they had suspicion that one of the terrorist militants was killed in June 3 years ago. No, sorry, June this year and they had some suspicion and some evidence. Not only suspicion, there is some evidence that Indian agents were behind his murder. When he said this to the Prime Minister, Prime Minister would have reacted appropriately. He must have asked for evidence. He must have said that India is not in the habit of doing such things. India is not in our DNA and therefore, he is very surprised that such an allegation is being made. And this is our understanding. There was a discussion and Mr. Trudeau left. But he would not live immediately because his plane developed some trouble in the airport and he had to stay two extra days. And then he went back to everybody's surprise. He went into the Canadian parliament and told them that there has been an incident like this. He said he is just coming back from Delhi and I raised this issue with the Prime Minister of India. That we have evidence, credible evidence he called it. That Indian officials were behind the murder of Mr. Leachab. And it was followed up immediately by the expulsion of one of our senior diplomats in our high commission of power. So the expulsion of diplomats is not very unusual. Even between friendly countries, such expulsions take place and there is some suspicion of various kinds. But in this particular case, not only that the Prime Minister went to his own parliament and announced it, which is much more serious than his announcing it in a press conference or in a public discussion or anything like that. And so he was taking the responsibility to his people, to his own representatives, that is the situation. And we have evidence to show that India is involved and therefore it must be investigated and India must cooperate in this investigation. We are completely taken aback by this allegation. This was not expected. And naturally we reacted by saying that, yes, if you have evidence to give it to us, we are willing to look at it. What else can we say? And we repeated that we do not do such things. There is an issue between India and Canada. We have always raised it with you and not with anybody else. And we are not in the business of going and dealing with terrorists in other countries. We had requested some of them to be sent back to India. You did not. And they continue to create difficulties for our diplomats. The situation has arisen where now our diplomats are unable to function properly. And so we also expelled the Canadian official from Delhi to kid for cat. And then we thought the problem will die there, but it did not. And apparently the Canadians are being alerted. They are allies. There are five countries who form what is called five ICE, EYES, five ICE, which look after this kind of issues, security issues among them. That is US, UK, New Zealand, Australia, etc. So these are very old agreements soon after the Second World War with the time against the church. So but then that arrangement is still in place. So if there is any kind of suspicion about terrorist activity or anything that relates to security, they compare notes with each other and they inform each other and then they decide how to go about it. So it turned out that Mr. Trudeau had told these countries about this and the United States showed some sympathy. And they also came with a public statement that this is a serious matter and Government of India must cooperate. And also said that such things should not happen in the international community. So slightly in favour of the Canadians. They did not say that Indians will not do such a thing. And therefore this is absurd because we said it is absurd and reasonable. And the Americans and the other allies of Canada made some statements supportive of Canada. So this became more serious because relationship with not only with Canada but also with other other friends, particularly the United States, Australia, New Zealand, etc. were being affected. And so we have been discussing and I was just listening to Mr. Jaishankar speaking in Washington about his own discussions in United States, about Canada. He is not in Canada, he was in the US. And the discussions were taking place there because statements were being made by in Canada and he was responding. And he has repeated the same point that India has not engaged in this kind of activity number one. But if number two, if the Canadians have any evidence, please give it to us. If you have no evidence and what is the investigation about? And if you have the evidence, it is better to just look at it before we go on to investigation. So this is our position. And to that there is no response. They are not saying anything new. They keep on saying investigation, investigation and cooperation by India. Meanwhile, we stopped issue of visas to Canadian nationals, even those who have overseas Indian citizenship card. And that created problems on both sides in Punjab itself, a large number of Punjabis in Canada who are not able to visit because they are Canadian citizens. And that created problems, our own people cannot travel. And so one after the other, the whole situation is becoming worse and worse. And there is no sign of change because Canada sticks to its position that India has been guilty of us. And they have also been saying, obviously unofficially, that they would like to question the High Commission officials on this matter. This is not permitted. The High Commission officials are immunity. And if they have to be questioned, they have to be questioned in India. They cannot be questioned in a foreign country where they are diplomats with immunities and privileges. Everyone knows all this. So what we don't see is an inclination on the part of Canada to somehow settle this matter. They are raising this wherever they can and keep asking their supporters to criticize India. Meanwhile, some countries who know India very well like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh and others have said that we have never heard of India doing anything like this. And India does not go out of the diplomatic path to deal with immunities. Therefore, this has to be given up and this is not a serious matter. But we still have no, we do not see any change in the attitude of Minister Trudeau. And he keeps explaining that they are my constituents, I need their votes and therefore I have to protect their rights to freedom of expression. But when you criticize a friendly country without any evidence, then it is not very polite. So this has also been pointed out. And so there is a kind of standoff between India and Canada. There is no solution. Mr. Jayashankar would be returning very soon from the United States and we do not know where this will go. In the past, Canada has made some restrictions. Like for example, Canada has been protecting our diplomats all these years. Now the High Commission officers are protected 24 hours a day because of this threat from the Khalistan interiors. And the funny thing is there is no Khalistan agitation in India itself. It is very quiet in Punjab. And so this is a purely foreign initiative which has no benefit. It does not benefit anybody. And there is no Khalistan movement. Then it must speak about India. So we do not know how to resolve it because as long as this allegation remains, we need to have the evidence that they have. They sometimes say this is electronic evidence, sometimes say this is conversations. So is it fair to tap the conversations of diplomats? What about their immunity? Why do they say that they have electronic evidence? What kind of evidence can it be? All this is going on. So I do not know where this will go. But it will be very sad if this affects India, Canada relations. Because as I said earlier, we have a lot of interest there. Our community has something like 2.2 million Indians. And also the students who are going there. In fact, Canada was very keen to attract our students to Canada. And they have been promoting their admissions and encouraging people to go. And as a result, many have gone. Because they are recently at a function to flag off 7,200 Indian students going to Canada in one month from one agency. You can imagine how many other agencies, how many other nuns and how many people we do not know. But such a large number of people, young people are there. One hears that there have been problems for them to get accommodation etc. And so these have to be sorted out. There are admissions in colleges and schools to be sorted out. And that has to be done in an atmosphere of peace and confidence. Since that is not there, it is quite possible that they may face difficulties. As of now, we hear that they are not facing any difficulties. They are happily going about their job. The ordinary Canadians are not bothered about these charges. But you never know what will happen to an Indian student or Indian origin person walking around on the streets. And any such negative thing should not be allowed to happen. So this is in some of the situations between India and Canada. Our relations are going from bad to worse. And there is no effort by the Canadians to back out on their charge. And on the Indian side, we are obviously looking for evidence. And if it is there, we are ready to do that. So this is the situation. As far as terrorism is concerned, which was discussed in G20, both the countries, India and Canada have pledged to deal with terrorism in whatever way we can because it is a danger to the entire humanity. And this does not relate to one country or the other. And therefore, they are actually walking away from their commitment not to encourage terrorism. And Mr. Jay Shankar said in the UN itself that internal political considerations should not be a factor in dealing with terrorism. Because you cannot say we will not deal with terrorism because they are our terrorists or they are people who support us. And that is very wrong for anyone to say. And therefore, we are in a bind and a diplomatic solution has to be found sooner than later because a large number of people are involved and that is where the situation is. So in the old days, before 9-11, westerners used to think that terrorism is only in the South Asian subcontinent, only between Pakistan and India, or between Palestinians and Israel. They never imagined that this can happen in the western countries. And then it happened in 9-11. The people who carried out the bombing were the same people we had released from our jails. In the end of 1999, they were escorted out of India. And it was the same people who participated in the bombing in India. So it came home to them and that is why the United States invaded Afghanistan and fought war against terror for 30 years, billions of dollars spent. And no solution has been found. And finally, Taliban has taken over power. And they are terrorists and they are carrying on in their own way and know that other country has recognized the Taliban government except India. So generally against terrorism, there is a general feeling that terrorism must be fought by everyone. And that is the one point which is against the Canadian government for shielding them and encouraging them in the name of expression of freedom of expression. It's not a matter of freedom of expression because freedom of expression and freedom of action should stop short of affecting another person. And as long as it affects another person, there is no freedom. It cannot be accepted. And so we are on the right track. We are nothing to be concerned about. And we will pursue this and hopefully the Canadians will also fall in line. So that is the situation but it is developing all the time every day and we have to watch this very closely. I don't know. How can I answer on behalf of the Canadians what their intentions are? But that is not a legitimate claim because the press was asking and so we revealed it. That's not how diplomacy works. You have to take your own national considerations. You have to consider the relationship of the other country and then take action. So Chinese interference in their elections is for them to handle and obviously they must have done something about it. But to turn it against India because the Chinese had been something that is ridiculous. So I do not think that is good enough justification and they know it. In fact, we were thinking that it would be the Chinese of some other country which would show irritation about India becoming a leading country in the world. So we thought it might happen. I personally thought something might happen like this but we never expected that it will come from Canada of all cases. So is what Canada is following Chinese instructions or what? Because if Chinese are upset that India is taking the leadership of the global south it is not of any relevance to Canada. Canada must deal with India and they must deal with China separately. So these reports etc cannot be. In any case we cannot answer them but we cannot even verify whether these are true. So it is that we can wind up. So thank you very much and we will see you again next week. Thank you.