 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. The cross-firing in the border region in Jammu and Kashmir has claimed many lives on both sides of the border. There is an ongoing crisis and a ceasefire was announced. To discuss all these issues, we are joined by Gautam Navalakha, an eminent human rights activist who is also associated with Pew D.I. Welcome to NewsClick, Gautam. Thank you, Pranjeet. There has been massive cross-firing that has been taking place when it comes to the border in Jammu and Kashmir. How many civilians have lost their lives? A ceasefire was announced in the month of Ramzan when it comes to the Indian site, but it hasn't yielded any results. What do you have to say on that? Well, if you go back to the history of ceasefire violations in recent times and see how they have held or they have broken down, two things emerge. August-September 2015, ceasefire violations used to take place, but there were violations then things would subside and there was not necessarily retaliatory firing so that the things would not escalate. What happened after August-September 2015 is that the Nareen Modi government decided gave a free hand to the forces deployed on the border to do as they please virtually, which meant that for instance in the international border where the border security force is deployed, they were firing thousand shells every night after that. And this is the same thing happened along the LOC which is guarded by the Indian Army. So once you escalate, then it's bound to, unless the other side completely capitalates which it is not going to happen on the Pakistani side, it was matched and this has been going on. So you will see a certain periods where there are heavy firing including the most disturbing is the use of heavy artillery against each other's positions and which kills and causes damage to civilian property and life far greater than anything else. So why is the ceasefire not holding or why is it they are not able to bring it down? Very recently when the two sides agreed not to fire and not to escalate, the same day a video of border security force destroying some Pakistani bunkers were leaked to the Indian media and Indian media played it up to make it appear as though Pakistan had buckled down under Indian firing. Now this was like a provocative act and the very next day there was an escalation of firing from the other side. Now this is something that also contributes a great deal to escalating tensions on the border. Now for instance the border security force and the Pakistan ranges have agreed that they would not retaliate immediately. So for the last few days you have seen that the international part of the border at least has fallen silent which is from where maximum number of people have been displaced nearly up to 80 to 90,000 people have been displaced from these border villages and it would be the same on the other side of Pakistani civilians being displaced also. So unless the government of India is clear about what it wants and whether it is going to carry on with its so-called muscular policy vis-a-vis Pakistan, well this is what we will have to live with under Ridd Modi's administration. Interestingly in the Hindu today an article was published which says that Rajnath Singh is saying that we should have a dialogue not only with the forces I mean the separatist forces in Kashmir but also with Pakistan and the step was also taken when interlocutor was appointed but it did not yield any result. So do you think do you see it as a development? Pranjal in the first place Rajnath Singh presided was chairing a meeting which was called by the Intelligence Bureau a two-day conference on national security a strategic conference. By and large everybody supported two things one talks with Hurriyat and the second that we must resume dialogue with Pakistan that is the only way in which now whether the government would heed their advice is something that we still have to wait and see. Reading the newspapers very carefully and reading between the line it is the IB which has been coming out with stories which is pointing out that the matter is far more serious than it is made it up made out by the BJP ministers the Indian Army and others that the kind of commitment and militancy that the local population is exhibiting today shows that they are not going to back down and the IB according to one of the reports pointedly referred to the fact there is Hezboll Maajai the Incaders militants refused to even surrendered even when they are surrounded by the forces and they know they are going to die when the families talk to them at that moment they show no sign of buckling under or succumbing to emotional pressure and things like that. As the government of India has traditionally and security agency and opinion makers periodically and actually not periodically engage in this systematically which is to present it at Pakistan inspired everything it is a problem that has primarily been caused by successive Indian governments and it is an indigenous response that we have addressed. So the significant part of this view that was expressed at this conference is that on both grounds where the BJP and the RSS has stuck to a line taking hard line that we won't talk to Pakistan unless they withdraw support from so called terrorism and that there is no question of talking to Hurriath and they just have to give up and surrender and join the mainstream that is the standard line that the BJP has been peddling it is in contrast to that and it shows that within the establishment there are views that are contrary to governments own make-believe world which they live in. Indian army's perception of its capacity to bring this militancy to a halt because as the IB has also pointed out that for each militant that who have been killed there have been many more recruits for each one there are more than one or two or three recruits ready to join the militant ranks. The situation on the ground is very different and I think it is this which has driven the government to decide but the immediate factor that I think that makes it slightly doubtful as to how serious the government is about this ceasefire is evident from one fact. IB's report specifically refers to the fact that in order to ensure a safe Amanath Yatra this year it is very important that the Ramzan truce that has been announced is extended. Now if the main objective of the government of India at this juncture is to ensure that Ramzan truce and Amanath Yatra passes peacefully and nothing beyond then then this whole exercise will reveal itself will be nothing but what should I say a sham. The same Hindu report talks about growing threat of communism in the Jammu region. We have seen what has happened during the Kathuare incident and how Hindu Ekta Manj one of the right wing outfits took out Tirangayatra, the BJP Congress all these leaders participated in that rally and there is this strong assertion of Hindutva going on. Do you think the IB talks about that as well? Do you think that can be a point where the government actually needs to take this issue up? Well how seriously this government will take it remains to be seen. Especially when they are being backed by the RSS. When this government is actually backed by the RSS and it's an RSS government because it's made up of Pracharaks but that apart the interesting thing is it's Kathua and the horrible barbaric nature of that crime that has compelled the IB for the first time to take note of communism in Jammu and Kashmir and referring to Jammu in particular. The unfortunate part of it is that none of the governments have ever taken seriously the role of Hindutva elements in initiating the climate in Jammu and Kashmir. This history is very long it goes back to 1950 Shama Prasad Mukherjee's agitation for merger of Jammu and Kashmir to all the way down. It's nothing that is very different from it there is a long history of it. So this communalism is not something which is just emerged from Kathua. It's been there for a long time which Indian public and the authorities administration in particular have been indifferent to. But Kathua has compelled them to take note of it because what it has resulted in is and now from Hindutva I mean just shows how those who support a criminal act and those accused of that committing such heinous crimes can go to any extent to pick up any idea and identity to push their politics which is a politics of apartheid that we should be treated at differently from all the others. They move from Hindutva now Hindu Ekta Manj to now calling themselves as Dogra Manj. The point is that it's everybody knows who's behind this which are the parties which are openly supporting it. BJP has still not despite all that they may say they have not withdrawn support from all these elements which are part of this. One of them was even made minister. One of them was made minister and everybody's hand is in you know in one way or another they are part of it. So given that it's good that at least after 70 years intelligence bureau has woken up to the threat of communalism in Jammu and Kashmir. My only wish is that if they had been alive to this they would have noticed its roots going back to 1950s if not even beyond that. The Jammu region has a strong presence of the Rohingya community when it comes to India. Do you think that they might face any threat when we are facing this kind of issue in that region? Unfortunately refugees and especially stateless refugees are the worst of anywhere in the world and India is no exception and in fact in India they are even worse off because they don't have any legal protection provided to them. Now the Rohingyas who are living in Jammu it's not a very large number. So obviously they are a target and especially in a climate where Rohingyas as stateless and as outsiders have nobody to champion them. I mean the other communities may find somebody to champion the cause inside the country but who have Rohingyas who is going to speak up for Rohingyas. A very small miniscule refugee, stateless refugees surviving by sheer dent of the labour in the most miserable conditions in Jammu surrounded by total insecurity about their life. Gautam when all these things are happening there are also other core issues which nobody is addressing the issues of unemployment basically when it comes to Jammu and Kashmir. Why is there no discussion about these things when it comes to Kashmir and Jammu unemployment, education they remain a basic problem there the economy is crumbling in that state. Jammu and Kashmir after the radical land reform of the 1950s saw a period of prosperity and growth and which was unprecedented in the first one and a half two decades of Jammu and Kashmir. But the limits of that development and that prosperous growth were halted also by other structural impediments and one of the major is the end result nature of the dispute. Unemployment is highest in Jammu and Kashmir compared to any other state in India according to a recent study that has been brought out and according to the government of Jammu and Kashmir itself it may be as high as 24.6 percent which compared to 4.7 percent which is the national average many many many times over the national average. I mean there is there must be some link between the two. I mean the fact that you have such a huge forces deployed who enjoys such enormous powers that the operations are being carried out or they are moving from one place to another or patrolling different parts of the areas etc surely they must be impacting economic activities in adversely in more than one way. Wide apart from that look at the lackluster performance of central government Nareen Modi in 2015 goes and grandly announces a package economic package of rupees 80,000 crore. Three years later in 2018 the Standing Committee of Parliament for Home Affairs in its report points out that only 22 percent of that 18,000 crores roughly 17,000 crores have been disbursed. A lot of projects that have been sanctioned the total value of projects that have been sanctioned are around 50, 52,000 crores out of which only 17,000 crore funds have been released which means it is like all other economic past packages of the past this is doing no better. So I mean you can announce packages you can promise that as a result of these packages job creation will take place roads would be built power houses would be built there would be enough electricity and energy for everybody etc it does not when the central government itself shows such such lukewarm attitude would you expect anybody else to do. Let me point out something even when people try at the dint of their own labour setup for instance educated unemployed come together and set up a unit for instance which is IT based unfortunately where IT is concerned Kashmir boasts the maximum number of internet shutdowns that India has 50 percent of all internet out of 82 internet shutdowns last year half of it were in Jammu and Kashmir this impacts business activities also. So what I am trying to say is that the conflict has multiple ways in which it has impacted and an impeded economic activities and it will continue to do so unless and until now the where come to dialogue there is a huge problem and the huge problem that we Indians face is that we are not clear about what we can offer Kashmiris having declared on the floor of the parliament that article 370 has been hollowed out we do not even want to consider right of cell determination what is it that we are going to offer the Kashmiris of talks were to be held. So it is very good that people are talking about political dialogue with Pakistan and with Huryat the trouble is what is there to talk about are we clear are we in a position is the government of India willing to declare unilateral you are as a part of a dialogue that will restore back the constitutional autonomy that was guaranteed to Jammu and Kashmir if not what is it that we are going to be talking about. Thanks a lot Gautam for giving us your time and as these things proceed we will be coming back to you on such issues one second. Thank you. Thank you for watching NewsClick.