 All right, everyone. Welcome to the Anthill Insights Science Fiction Book Club. We are here today with Lavanya Laxminarayan and we are staying ahead of the curve talking about her book, Analog Virtual. A few things before we begin. Please keep your mics on mute. We will be taking questions at the end of the session. So please keep typing them into the chat box as and when they occur to you. To introduce myself, I am Vijay Laxmi. I am the author of Strangely Familiar Tales. My writing, my poetry and short stories have been published in various online journals and anthologies. And my writing on pop culture and feminism can also be found on women's web. My co-moderator today is the wonderful T.G. Shenoy. T.G. Shenoy is an SFF enthusiast and columnist and critic. He is the writer of India's longest-running weekly SFF column, New World's Weekly for Factor Daily and the Spec Fix column for Bangalore Mirror. He also curates the SFF track for Bangalore Lit Fest. He has featured in podcasts such as the Taleharete Kannada podcast and events such as the Sri Lanka Comic Con to talk about SFF in general and Indian SFF in particular. He hosts, to boldly go, a fun SFF quiz every Saturday. He's also an advertising and marketing professional and is currently a consulting partner with Celsius 100 Consulting. Today, of course, we're speaking to Lavanya Laxminarayan, whose book Analog Virtual has been in the news recently for all. Welcome Lavanya and congratulations. Lavanya Laxminarayan is the locus and BSFA Award nominated author of Analog Virtual and other simulations of your future. She recently won the Times of India Author Award for Best Debut Novel. She's also a game designer, has built worlds for Zynga Zynga Engs-Famvel, Famvel 2 and Mafia Wars, dabbled in building games around NFTs on blockchain, and attempt to design an ornamentality robot fighting game. Her forthcoming publications include a short story in the Gollink's book of South Asian science fiction, Volume 2, and her novel in the anthology, Third Eye. In her spare time, Lavanya is a classically trained pianist with stage fright, an animal lover with two dogs, and a world traveler who can't wait for her next big adventure. Lavanya can be found on Instagram at Lavanya.ln and on Twitter at Lavanya underscore ln. Chenoy, would you like to get us started off by telling us why Analog Virtual is such an essential book for our times? Well, yeah, this is the book and I absolutely loved it when I read it first. So, like all good SF, whether you're talking about future or whether you're talking about new governance is ultimately speaks to its time. And I thought in that sense, Analog Virtual and other simulations of the future was very timely and very relevant in a sort of holding a mirror to where we are and where we should not go. That I think is more important. For those of you who have not read the book, this contains about 20 stories and is set in the future where states no longer exist as we know it. And all cities have been privatized, run by corporations. Those that are not privatized are run as a cooperative society, but they are very few and far in between. The most successful cities like Apex City is run by corporations such as the Belcor. Now Apex City is what once upon a time used to be called Bangalore. And the title Analog Virtual refers to the people who live in Apex City. The virtuals are your elite who have access to technology and who live by the mantra of productivity and success. Whereas the Analogs are the ones who don't meet Belcops, what shall we say, standards of productivity and everything and thus relegated to outside Apex City where we have no access to water, electricity and all of those things. And if you're even worse than that, you get sent off to the vegetable farms. I guess you can figure out what the vegetable farms are, where you are the vegetable and you get farm. And for those familiar with Bangalore, the dividing line between the Analogs and the virtual is the Carnatic Meridian which lies at Mint Square, which is where the Coven Park metro station is right now where the ages jet has been kept. And that's the dividing line between these two worlds. Now, as much as we talk about meritocracy and all of those things, the world that Lavanya has posited in Analog Virtual isn't something to look forward to because everybody's life is sort of governed by the bell curve. It's almost like I keep saying like an annual appraisal by HR. So that's the vision of the future that's there in Analog Virtual and we see snippets of it through 20 short stories, interlink short stories about various people and what life is within and without. And these as an analog or as a virtual or virtuals who want to slip into analogism and analogs trying to be virtual and we'll get discuss about these themes in great detail as we come along but before we proceed. I'd like to really congratulate you Lavanya, your debut novel, long listed for the Nebulas, SFW's Nebulas. It was there on the Locust recommended list for 2020 and that's quite the feat. We had the maximum representation from Indian authors this year in the Locusts and yours was amongst the best there. You just won the author award for best debut 2020. So how does it, how does it feel like that people are buying into your dystopian vision or what does it, what's it been like, the journey so far. It's, it's kind of surreal, and you know, thanks you and Vijay for having me here and for saying such wonderful things about my book about Analog Virtual. It's, it's incredible to have it received this way simply because when you write your book and you send it out there at least for me personally. I hope it just connects with you know one person right like I just want one other person to read it and say, I got what you were trying to say. So to have such a diverse spectrum of people recognize it and appreciate it, not just here at home in India but also outside of India. I think it's really quite overwhelming and it's very heartening to know it means that the concerns that I chose to write about because I was writing from a point of concern. There are concerns that we are sharing together as humanity. And that, that is really the biggest takeaway for me from from all of this recognition that the book has received of late. Coming to how Analog Virtual is structured it's 20 interlinked stories which puts the folk and each of them talks about different bits so there's this one story about monsters under the bed which is, you know, which is probably my favorite of the lot. Also the scariest of the lot where this person has this implant which tells him what to think what not to think so that he comes in line with bell cops vision, then you have to be characters from the resistance, you know from the underground. And all of that and I think I agree with Yenmon when he wrote in Locust that this must be the sort of format for future dystopian books, right, because, and when I read that I was reminded of what Tolstoy said, and all happy families are the same, but every that family is sad in its own different way. So 20 visions of sadness, each different makes perfect sense for a dystopia rather than for a utopia where you can just have one character see his or her life through. So, I mean, what was the decision to structure it like this and what was it easy what was it difficult. And I know it's, it's a publishing thing but when we were nominating and voting on for the locus, we were like trying to figure out do we slot this into a collection or do we slot this into a novel. I mean, it's both. And then finally it got slotted into collection for reasons, but yeah, but how do you go about choosing and how did you choose these characters and these subjects. I, I actually, you know thought thought long very similar lines to what you hinted at when building this dystopian city I really wanted to talk about what it is like to experience it from different perspectives. Simply because like you said right. All misery is unique to every single character and look they're not all miserable some of them. Some of them do find a bit of redemption. What I wanted to do was be able to reflect the spectrum of experiences within a given city. I didn't want to focus to live with single character and their, you know biases and so on and so forth simply because I felt that there are enough ways in which our, as you know the entire world it impacts every single person in entirely unique ways. And I wanted to to demonstrate that by creating characters who would each be engaging with this reality on completely different terms, everyone uniquely motivated. Everyone is sort of. Everyone has their own backstory and their own history. And what really compelled me to do this with this book to sort of break it up and create the sort of like mosaic view of the city was that the overarching dystopia is based on the need for conformity. And when you superimpose the idea of conformity and a single set of values onto a massive group of individuals. You, you want to produce little bricks on the wall, but the truth is every single individual is is their own person. And to conform in order to succeed or to survive really takes its toll on people. And that's sort of what I wanted to reflect the cost of conformity or the cost of having to change yourself to meet an external system of values. And when I wrote it. I did intend it to be like a very fragmented novel of sorts but hey you know once the book is out there in the world the author is dead. And so to people who want to read it as a collection by all means you know the collection is best read in serial order though, because there are links between the stories and it makes better sense when you read it progressively. And to those who see it as a novel so be it. In my head it is a novel. And I'm very grateful, you know that it's on the local list at all. So, wherever it's wherever it is on that list it works in either situation. I mean author is dead and all that unless you're jk rolling. One of the things that I loved about analog virtual is that there is this sense in it of, you know, the more things change the more they stay the same. So it's a world in which a woman can, you know not go through pregnancy physically. So you know technology is a lot evolved to that extent, but the idea that a woman can be child free is something that still causes quite a bit of outrage. And so in this past year we've seen the world literally divide itself into virtuals and analogues who've you know born the brunt of the lockdown and the economic and social impact and all of that. So it's the world of analog virtual is like a strange world, but with very familiar problems. I wanted to know how you worked on blending that strangeness with the familiar. Thank you. That that is something I wanted to bring through, because I feel like we fundamentally do need to make this massive shift in our mind space as a collective right towards towards more empathy towards more awareness and towards acceptance of different people and what their priorities might be and who they might be as people. And that is something I really wanted to bring in to this book, something that I love about science fiction to me the best science fiction is the kind that sort of creates an entirely unsettling environment or a universe and then sort of extrapolate really human concern and puts them in there so that we can reflect upon them without necessarily being bound by reality or by realism, where we don't actually carry historic biases or existing biases into it we just carry what what human beings behave like into it. And I wanted to take these aspects into it. The story you talk about with, you know, the, the woman who still can't choose to not have a baby. Right. I wanted to, I wanted to demonstrate that you know this. A lot of the time we think we are making progress, and we think we are and you know the words like empowering and enabling equality of sexes and so on and so forth. We're not actually addressing a far far more fundamental problem when it comes to this which is a basic respect and how people are perceived in the first place beyond very very specific functions of type to them. And that is something I wanted to try and bring in as much as possible through every single story. This being an example of one of them. It was, it was a wonderful story to really, really, you know, hit the point. And in general, like that different setting but same problem kind of scenario that you've created. It really brings through the fact that advanced technology doesn't necessarily mean progress, because that's the connection we have in our heads that you know, technologically advanced society is a progressive society but it really isn't. You know, not necessarily. I mean technology just makes it easier to enforce things you would want to enforce it just makes it easy. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so it, you know, so it also reminds me of this other interview of yours that was watching with Oxford Bookstores where you were taking questions from participants and one of the questions was about how you link the climate crisis with, you know, going virtual and your answer was really interesting because you spoke about how the what the virtual world demands of us is not really in sync with what the natural world demands of us. So I'd like to ask you that same question how you link the world going virtual with the climate crisis, because it was a really interesting answer that you give. Oh, thank you. So I, the way I view it right the virtual world or our experience of it and the way it is being designed right now. And actually before I start on this you know I do want to clarify technology is not a bad thing. It is a very powerful thing and it can be used very powerfully as a tool for unification as a tool for enabling access and creating platforms and so on and so forth. So I have that currently the way technology is being designed is very, very top down, and it is being designed towards consumerism and enabling consumerism simply because most of the people building our technology are their capitalist powerhouse. Right. And what they, what we have been trained to do through technology is to consume and to consume at a very rapid pace. If we, if I want a brand new book I will order it and I will have it here tomorrow. Right, using technology. If whether if I want. I don't know if I want pizza for dinner you know I'm just going to put it up on piggy and it'll be at home in 45 minutes. And we have been trained by the way in which technology has been designed and built to constantly expect instant gratification. That is very out of sync with how the real world works, so to speak you know where we're sitting in a little bubble where everything arrives at our doorstep within a day to five days. But if you really look at the real world if we look at going going down to you know climate change, this is a long standing pressing issue that needs to be repaired. And so we have arrived at solutions. If we look at our relationship to food in a very natural sense of it, you grow something in your garden it takes weeks and months to grow. And I love gardening. I love gardening with my mom, I have a little home garden where we grow our own vegetables. And then you get this tiny little handful of tomatoes right and that's how reality works, but we are being so disconnected from the process of living, which is, you know, everything happens in its own time. And a lot of. I cannot take a lot of things for granted, because things are all our natural elements come into play I mean if climate change impacted swiggy delivery. I bet everyone would be a lot more proactive about it. Right. It's just the climate change impact, you know other people's issues that don't really hit us because eventually all our produce is in a supermarket, and we don't even have to go to the supermarket anymore. We just get a delivered home. So we are so many degrees away. And we are being honed by these algorithms to continually want that dopamine hit of buying shiny stuff and bringing it home as soon as possible. And I think that is where the real issue lies. Not that these are bad things you know I think it has certainly made life more convenient. It has made living faster, but to consume in this manner without having awareness that this is the impact right that we are getting into this and gratification loop. That's where the real problem lies. So, so I hope I hope that was as effective an answer. Absolutely. Thank you. One thing that that sort of struck me well as reading analog virtual and, like you said, most of us who live in tier one metro towns and all I mean we live in this little bubble. Right. And then to not everyone, all of us will live in a Bangalore bombing because there's like severe inequalities and all of those things and you know it's nice to look at this and say that it's a dystopia. But like I always said you know the best SF is a reflection of our times and you know to paraphrase what William Gibson said about the future. And if the things in analog virtual or dystopian then you know dystopia is already here is just unevenly distributed. Absolutely, absolutely even even right now like you said you know we're sitting in Bangalore and many of us here have these privileges, but just down the road there are people who don't. They don't enjoy those same privileges and outside of tier one cities. Again, you know, regardless of whether it's tier two whether it's a small town, there is this uneven distribution of what we believe is very universal access to technology that's that's a total mess. I mean that's that's an absolute myth because I went back home to my ancestral home and would be it's a small village and there sometimes the phone signal just drops or ours. There's no power for days because obviously Bangalore is more important you can't have a pocket in Bangalore so right so that's how it goes and that just drives home the amount of privilege that that we have and you know the analog what divides analogues in the virtually quote unquote merit and that's that's something that the privileged are most often talking about and that's there. That's the dream right okay we shouldn't make allowances for the poor we shouldn't have reservations, etc because it's all comes down to merit and I read from the book. From the preamble to the bell charter on human rights, and this is how the bell charter on human right goes. Bell cop declares that civilization is free from discrimination, a universal system of merit determines an individual's worth to society. We are a meritocratic technology. We are the future of the human race. So put put put this power of tech bro billionaires. And this is how it will be so can I just wanted to can you expand a bit on meritocratic technology, you know, and why and why the contact I mean the bell curve. Of course, I think it goes back to this right this. First, the, the fallacy of merit of merit as a fair equal system it isn't in order to even be able to access opportunities from which you can be in quotes meritorious. There's a certain degree of privilege in the first place right otherwise it's not that you cannot but the number of obstacles you need to overcome. It's tremendous and you know I'm sitting here in my position of privilege something I've occupied for my entire life in many ways. And I'm acutely aware that a lot of other people don't have access in the same term. Right. And, but having said that, you know, going back to what you said about debates about. Let's not have reservations like how controversial that reservation bar, how merit is seen as this one size fix all solutions right like it is. It's basically you know you put in your hard work you are self made. It's as easy as that it's a point A to B thing. I think that is, that is a pipe dream that's being sold to people. It is a pipe dream that is also consolidated and perpetuated by capitalist systems, where you know you look at this, this ladder of success right the way we are taught all the way and you are schooling onwards. It is work hard, top your class get into the best university, fantastic, top your university, excellent get the best job, and now work 16 hours a day so that you get that promotion. And once you get that promotion you get the house you get the car you get you know what these are the dreams that were sold. And, and, and in parallel to that, we are. It is almost being established particularly in corporate spaces that all of the good things that come your way are only on the basis of your merit, and it is never acknowledged that different people might be differently able to even access an opportunity and convert it on that scale of merit. Right. If, if I am, you know, if, if I'm let's say in a corporate environment and I'm writing writing for games, as an example I've done that. And we want to hire a new writer, but the writer who comes in does not have the same pop culture references because they grew up in very different in a very different environment. The corporate world does not want to take the time to bring this person and help expose them to okay you know if you're writing mafia also stuff you need to watch good fellow. Everybody wants to explain that it's you have to come in having watched good fellow. And that's the bar so it. This is a very tech growth for sort of an issue where, because we want to move faster we want to be profitable faster. We only want people who are capable of operating at that speed at that pace, this sort of herd of people with perfect alignment all of the time. The bell curve is absolutely a reflection of this it for those who haven't experienced it before it is sort of a starting mechanism where you know HR slots you into different percentiles based on your performance. And it is always determined that you know they can never be let's say more than 20% at the top of the curve or occupying the position of outperformers, for example, and it doesn't matter you know if in a group of 100 people 40 people have done a stellar job 40 people are not going to make it. It's just going to be 20 people making it to that top 20% and so on and so forth, so it is a ruthless extraordinarily competitive system. And I believe that it sort of lends itself to the notion of meritocracy, because you know they they kind of go hand in hand towards exclusion, as opposed to, I guess, empowerment and equality and working together as a collective. I mean, the full title of the book is analog virtual and other simulations of your future. So I don't know whether it's the simulation we are already living in. That's the hopeful part, that's the hopeful part, the use of simulation. Yes, hopeful quote unquote. It's it's like how Samit Basu describes his new book Chosen Spirits as Antidistopia. Exactly. It's not dystopia, it's anti dystopia because that he says is the best case scenario so yeah. But yeah, I'm just speaking about you know merit and you know how differences and opportunities are never really taken into consideration when we are talking about merit. The story that probably illustrates that best in analog virtual is etudes and going by reviewers it seems to be everybody's favorite story certain he is one of my favorites. I'd like you to tell us a little bit more about that story itself, you know, and what you were going for with it, what you were hoping that people would take away. Oh, thank you. So, etudes is a story about a young analog girl, she's a teenager, she's been adopted into a virtual family. But because she is an analog she is under constant monitoring by Belcore and by Belcore systems effectively, where she has to prove her work, prove that she is worthy of being a virtual citizen. While she's being monitored, she does not have access to a lot of technology to any technology in fact, she's the only person in her class who uses books, physical printed books and who has a journal, because Belcore doesn't trust her with technology, right, and until she proves that she can be a citizen she will not get access to technology. This really gets in her way, because her dream is to be a virtual so pianist. And in this reality, you know, as opposed to traditional piano lessons, where you learn with you know the way we learn. That's not necessarily the way we learn music right now because that has opened up but the traditional way to learn, let's say classical music is here's a book, it's filled with cheap music, read it, play it, practice it, master it, right. But in this world there is this amazing technology, it's pretty much, you know, directly synced into, into implants. It's an internal metronome, so you're always keeping perfect rhythm. It gives you direct feedback from your instruments so that you know you're, you're playing it dynamically, you're evoking the right emotions and so on. She doesn't have access to, and that sets her back, because you know technology like this. In my version of how music is learned. It, it really helps you understand, understand music so much faster. And she works in spite of this to pursue that dream. And what I wanted to really address when talking about when writing the story was that we actually have a lot of systemic discrimination on a number of ground that is very prevalent, right, you know, from a very, very formative age. And I do go into that a bit in other stories in my book as well where, so the character in the story Nina, she is, she's bullied at school, because she's always in quotes falling behind, right. And that is systemic discrimination you stop them young, you feed them propaganda young they'll pick on people for you they will exclude people for you. At the same time, I did want to talk about you know how a lot of the time. Simply simply allowing something to policy, for example, an analog and analog and analog child being adopted. That is, you know that is policy, but without affirmative action backing it where people are supportive and understanding and capable of, you know, putting someone like this. It, it doesn't really matter like you are bringing somebody to the brink of opportunity and then limiting them and cutting them off right there. And that's, that's what I wanted to demonstrate through that story. It exists on many levels for me, simply because I mean it. It's a story that's very close to my heart as well. Writing it you know it was it was a hard one to write because my heart went out to Nina as I was writing her journey I she kind of broke my heart quite a bit. And through the story, I feel like I wanted to talk about how it is not enough to simply allow things, or permission is not enough, you know. And, in fact, permission is a pretty obnoxious like top down way to do things. It is, oh, well, you know, you wanted right here you go, you asked for it now what are you doing with it right that's rubbish. And, and, like I said, it's obnoxious it's so condescending. What you really need is an entire system that says okay, you know, here you have some rights and here you have some opportunities, and we are going to help you get across that life. We don't have support system, her parents and some of our friends are very supportive, but beyond that you know the whole world is conspiring against her and I wanted to talk about the unfairness of that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the character. I mean she sort of sticks out like like a bubble in a still water, you know, and this sort of feedback because everything is also uniform and still and you know the other bit that I'm not virtual also sort of highlighted for me is the extremes to which you took what we could possibly call what you signaling or being performative on social media. It really doesn't matter who you are what you do as long as you say the right things and do the right things and you know be cool about it and all of that so I mean, so a little bit more about that I think it as a B moji project whether you like it or not your things will be out there for everyone to see it's like that that joke you know that meme that was doing the rounds where this broker is showing a commode to this prospective buyer and says, yeah, here's this commode post all this shit on Twitter on Facebook. So the B moji landed me off that, you know, and whether it was sort of Ophelia that, you know, tries to bring you down into conformity and the women, you know, whether it is Thracialaceous and all of those people trying to, you know, sort of fit in the cool and all of those things so was that a criticism of current social media behavior or certain people or, you know, or like when people say hey here's a controversial opinion it really isn't just saying that for more, you know, like you said dopamine hit. Yeah, it was it was in part a massive criticism of, you know, the way social media works where a lot of the time. You don't. One does not necessarily always mean the things one says, and there is a lot of let me join the bandwagon, because of peer pressure right like what will, what will everybody else on my Facebook or Twitter or I think if I don't comment on this, or if I don't say something about it. If that was part of it, the other part of it, or, you know, this is the sort of conformity being soft, soft conformity right like open ins and values and all of that. It emerged to me as pretty problematic once I realized that most of the time with the people I was hanging out with in real life. We would be sitting at you know lunch conversations or dinner conversations that everybody would have watched the same stuff on whether it's on YouTube or Netflix and have the exact same opinions on it. You know, everyone is talking about the creating the exact same critique. There is pretty much no difference of opinion, and that sort of started to really disturb me a little bit, because a lot of the time we need tension, you need differences of opinion to really sort of explore a point of view to really explore a problem examine it from all sides arrive at really critical well thought solution that only come from, from dissonance, right, and to have this echo chamber of, and you know it. Of course I'm talking about you know really soft terms like pop culture, right where there's this echo chamber where everybody's favorite. I don't know MCU movie is the Black Panther state right and everyone saying awesome stuff about it. And I'm not taking anything away from the movie that's not what I'm saying it just becomes disturbing when nobody has anything critical to say something that is so popular, and so on and so forth. And that outside the realms of pop culture and kind of, you know, just not just a little and look at more pressing concern, you know, like our social inequality, the disparity of opportunities of technology, and everybody has this like, you know, like we were saying a little earlier this little bubble, where they think oh but everyone has access to technology right like that's awesome, where we are so progressive and the human race is getting better. It's not how it works. But yeah, so that's what I was coming from when I sort of created these perfect alignment pop cultural systems. Yeah, to the people listening in field field, please feel free to type in your questions to Lavanya in the chat or if you're on YouTube in the YouTube chat and we'll be taking that in a few minutes. So why my one last question to you would be Lavanya, the choice of Bangalore, right, apart from the fact that you are a Bangalorean and you live in Bangalore and love it and are familiar with it was was beyond that was what was the reason to cast Bangalore, you know, set it in Bangalore is that is that more to it than just familiarity with the city itself. One bit second question I wanted to ask is, where is the vegetable farm located is it by any chance in Whitefield. Or is it not in Whitefield because a peck city is Bangalore and what it might feel like. It could well be invited. It could be right. If it's just far off, you know far away enough from from the rest of things for it to be a nice closed facility. Whitefield. Whitefield it is. It's connected by the metro you can drop in any time. But you can never leave. But you can never leave. Bangalore, Bangalore actually led itself very, very easily to this book, because of its current ethos. And, you know, having lived here, having grew up here, I've seen the city transform as many Bangaloreans have from the sort of very laid back chill environment to start up central where you can't walk into a coffee shop without hearing like investor pictures and progress and teams having their, you know, they're like daily updates that those are happening in every single coffee shop, or at least they were prior to the pandemic. And I felt that that transition in Bangalore's people, I kind of wanted to push it even further and say okay so we're here now. Where will, where will that be a few years from now. Another reason for choosing Bangalore really is it really it genuinely reminds me in its present privilege bubble. I'm talking about sections of Bangalore that have that you know that tech privilege vibe. And it also reminds me of the very delusional be area of these cities that are responsible for all our cutting edge technology inputs in the present day that are responsible for all our top down capitalist consumerist technology it, it gives me that feeling especially when I look at a lot of the startups popping up here you know they, they are rooted around these, these very convenience driven very sort of, I would say, by stuff faster technology. And I felt that Bangalore that way was a great metaphor for any city in the world that is going through this, this sort of tech revolution startup revolution. Because there is a certain degree of, and I'm not, I'm not making this is a sort of a blanket statement, but there is a certain degree of callousness when it comes to the types of technologies being developed. Or at least on a large scale. They are entirely you know more shopping at more furniture stores online. Right. And as opposed to more I would say socially relevant solution convenience technologies that you know, maybe even enhance. Simple things like recycling. Right. And that's the direction I think a lot of heavy cities are going in and I see Bangalore doing that. So that's why Bangalore. Thank you, Lavanya. So to kind of come back to the stories themselves a little bit. My earlier mentioned that his the scariest story in the book for him was the monster under the bed. For me, it was a seven year glitch and I've still not gotten over that story. What is the misses and why is it in people's hands like why would anyone want to do that. Yeah, that was a terrifying story to write look I was scared writing both stories, just, you know, just, just to be clear. They were not enjoyable stories to write the process of writing them. When I wrote my message I was kind of lumped on the couch for days, because if it is a bleak dark horrible story. If you haven't read the book yet. My message is an algorithm that communicates directly between the nebula which is, you know, the future of the cloud it's where all big data stored where trends are observed and so on it is basically an algorithmic implant inside of your head that communicates information directly to your head from the cloud and it has access to everything about you. So if you think the Fitbit is a bit creepy, because it tracks your heart rate and you're breathing and tells you when you need to be stressed my message is the Fitbit on steroids. And it actually manipulates, you know, your everything from your hormones to your physiology to push your decision making button. And I thought, why would anyone sign up for that. Well, you know, if, again, going back to that, that that illusion of merit. So, a character in the book named Aditi signs up for my message and to test my message. And the reason is very, it goes back to the fallacy of medicine. It's a super competitive world. If you be more efficient, more ruthless, more cutthroat, it will tell you exactly what you need to do to get to the top. And, you know, if you are somebody with ambitions, this is, this is my message is the perfect algorithm for you. When I was writing about my message, I was, I was kind of, you know, riffing off of that the number of productivity apps that can track everything you're doing and recommend things to you. But at the back end, your Fitbit, which is, you know, I look at Fitbit is a great useful tool, but it's also pretty creepy in the way that it, you know, it's tracking every step. It recommends when you need to work out and so on, yet, these are invasive. Right. And I wanted to push the invasiveness of these. Particularly in the light of productivity and the cost of, you know, being super productive at everything else. That's, that's what I wanted to reflect on with my message. Yeah, I mean, very successful because I actually put the book aside for a while after that I was like, I can't deal with it. And more validation for my no Fitbit, no smartwatch life. No, for a sci-fi fan, I'm a bit of a leadite that way. But, but then I completely put that on sci-fi writers like you, was it such features and like, no, I am happy being a leadite. Yes, I shall only read physical books. Thank you very much. Oh, yeah, the more you read. Yeah, so that's it. The more you read SF, the more you're like, you know, maybe technology, like it's nice, but let's keep our distance. Yeah, I need a tinfoil hat. And I guess I guess we need to be clear when we're using technology and when technology is using us. Yeah, yeah. And to kind of tie the whole discussion together, we've kept on talking throughout and the thing that we've spoken most about is this need for confirmity that, you know, technology is encouraging and the way we are living right now is encouraging. Even in the world of analog virtual, you know, that really comes through because, you know, you have to have that right thoughts, the right preferences that you have to do the right things. And if you're not, you're like excommunicated from society as an analog and, you know, probably sent to the vegetable farm. But, and to for a, for a real world parallel, the lazy way to kind of look at it would be that it's cancel culture. But, you know, we know it's a little more complicated because no one in real life is actually getting canceled. But I do want to, you know, pick your brain on this in terms of, you know, if the way if technology keeps growing and our lives keep getting less and less private is this pressure to confirm only going to keep growing on us. Or is there an alternative. Um, I think. So, so yes, you're, you're right. Like, we are rapidly moving away from from privacy being something we can demand or expect. But I think that it really depends upon how we choose to use that technology. And I think that requires like several steps back and a lot of cognizance to sort of think about being able to respect other people's opinions, being able to have dialogue, you know, and, you know, what what you're saying about cancel culture where if, if I don't share the exact viewpoint is you do over, let's say something a bit controversial or meaningful to you. Right. There could be a number of reasons for it. Of course, one could be that I, I am an extremist and I don't respect your opinion that is problematic. All right, and that is very much my problem. At the same time, it comes from a, from a point of view of ignorance, and it is frustrating to deal with ignorance. And, yes, it is. But can you can can every individual facilitate dialogue right attempt and explanation attempt to reach out and meet the other person halfway. And in that case, you know, it's not so contingent on technology as it is on on humanity. Because it's true right like a technology is going to explode there's going to be, there's going to come a point where we are all performing all of the time and by performing I'm not saying faking it, but we, you know, our lives will no longer necessarily be entirely private. And, you know, this is, this is something that I think as we've been right about the machine hood. I think the circle by Dave I guess, you know, they deal with things of a complete lack of privacy. And that's not a very distant future it's just given that what can we be better human beings can we be more empathetic to the different circumstances from which people come. And that might, you know, it could very well be that that is what limits them when it comes to empathizing with you so can you, can you reach out. And of course, if, if conversation is completely unnecessary, you know, they are rather not unnecessary. If it is completely unrealistic and your attempts go nowhere, then sure, you know, calling somebody out that is fine but it doesn't have to turn into war, all of the time. Right. Thank you so much. I think we'll start taking. Yeah, we did say that this one is going to be by OQ bring your own questions so there's quite a few of them. The first one comes Lavanya from Mad Max one who asks meritocracy is not perfect. What's the alternative. That's a loaded question. I mean, I think meritocracy is definitely not perfect. Right. And it is, it is quite a bit of a myth. I think, I can't think of, you know, a system wide word, right, like a single word. But I do believe that the alternative involves. Like, like we've been talking about, you know, through this discussion it involves not just saying, hey, this is an equal opportunity world, we're not taking anything away from you, you know, like nothing's in your way. When inequality exists as the baseline that attitude or that approach does not work. So I really believe that sort of. I think facilitating equality is really, is really the solution and I'm not talking about equality by erasing differences. Right. In analog virtual, there are no cultural differences everything is completely like hegemonized to the pursuit of productivity. Culture has been erased effectively except what Belko tells you culture. I don't mean invalidate cultural differences. I mean, acknowledge that people come from different points of privilege and see where you can enable product see where you can enable equality so that people have an opportunity to to convert, you know, to convert what are whatever opportunities that come their way it's more meaningful that way. Thank you, Lamanya. The next question is from Naveen and he asks, given I think I recall that the SFU prefer presents an unequal or and it's unsettling world where people have relatable problems. Are you considering a more escapist or speculative story for your next work. I wouldn't necessarily call it escapist. It's not dystopian. It's definitely not as bleak as analog virtual. I love personally I you know I do enjoy escapist science fiction and fantasy as well. Unfortunately, I just don't think I write it yet. So my next, my next book is about the future of food. And while it isn't the bleak and dark future of food. It's not dystopian. There are a lot of real world things that will hopefully be relatable that I intend to make relatable in there. Future of food sounds exciting like I'm looking forward to that. Thank you. So Sujata 1972 Sujata asks, I hope that's not the time travel. Anyway, my technology is driving all aspects of our life and it is welcoming. What about the technology divide being created? What's your say on this? There is absolutely a technology divide being created. We say everybody has a smartphone and you know this whole smartphone proliferation statistic about India that keeps being tossed around. Yes, a lot of people have smartphones but what is the difference in capability between my, you know, fancy privileged high end smartphone and someone else's smartphone. What can I do with it that somebody else might not be able to do with it. That divide is very real. It's very present right now. And I think again the trouble or where it really comes from is that technology is proliferated top down. It is a capital system that is selling technology to us. And until, you know, the means to produce technology are opened up right and people are given the opportunity to create their own technology to create their to sort of divert technology to solving problems on let's say a community basis, whether it's a neighborhood or a family or a city, unless people get those tools, it's always going to be a huge divide. And we will always be at, you know, the mercy of mega corporations and the price points that they set. And yeah, so that's what I think about the divide in technology right now. It actually leads to our next question you've kind of taken a stab at it already now when answering, but I'll ask you the question which is that if technology is working on a top to top top to bottom way. What is the way out to reverse that and the question is from Aaron. Yeah, I, like you said, I've thought of gone there. And I think the way to reverse it is, you know, we are. It is that there is currently again, experimental technology when it comes to you know things like 3D printing, right, where, or when it comes to open source platforms, where where you can code, and so on and so forth. Imagine the two going side by side and being opened up to everybody where everyone has access to, you know, developing developing their things that meet their own needs, like if I could 3D print. For example, my own table, right and right now this is really speculative because I've used three printers. I actually custom built toy robots with friends of mine, using a 3D printer that we bought together, and it was a painfully slow process. Okay, so it's still a quite a long way out to think that that's going to be accessible but could that, you know, be a solution that everybody has access to. I don't know, you know, neighborhood basis it up an individual basis. And everyone also then be empowered to, to code, could code become more friendly so that people don't necessarily have to engage too deeply with syntax, like, can we frame thinking in such a way that people can be more self sustaining as opposed to dependent on larger corporations to solve problems for them and I think I might be going off on a bit of a tangent but I think that is that is massively problematic, the fact that you know we're being induced into this dependency, where we think. Oh yeah you know all it's solving all of my problems so it's okay to be dependent, but it's actually hitting us in terms of our own sort of ability to probably fall for us and to chase things down and create them for us. So moving on now from your role as, as author of analog virtual to you as an SF writer. Right, there are a couple of questions for that one is you don't have anything asks your thoughts on global SFF publishing and making headway in the conversation as someone who's effectively outside the anglosphere where most of the discussion happens. Oh, here you go. Thanks for that question. So it's particularly pertinent. It is an uphill battle, right or an uphill journey, rather than a battle to be heard. It would seem to be heard on a global platform from you know all the way in the subcontinent. It's, it's something I'm sure you know you guys experienced I've experienced it a lot of writers outside of the anglo-centric spaces of the UK and the United States have experienced it. And I think the crux of the matter really lies in the fact that the United States has dominated science fiction publishing for a very long time. It has established the market, it has established precedent for what, what will be published, what will appeal to the market. But I think, you know, there is. It has not explored all avenues as of yet, in terms of what might appeal to the market. And there is room for, for risk taking so for example, you know a book set in India, why would anyone outside of India care about it. Right. Well, you know we could say the exact same thing like why would we care about a book set in the United States in the near future the United States, but we do. And I think as the world moves, moves towards being a bit more global. I would possibly hope that publishing is a space moves towards representing more global perspective. There is a move right now where, you know, a movement of sorts where a lot more own voices authors are being represented and are being encouraged to tell their stories. Again, you know it is harder geography is still a very solid constraint here, right where it's a lot of diaspora, or people who no longer live in the subcontinent, or let's say for example a South America, right, or an Africa doing this like that. The platforms for people who are outside of the Anglophone geography, and not just the Anglophone experience are very limited but I think, you know we are slowly seeing tiny little breakthroughs. And that's the fact that, you know, there were a bunch of short story writers on that look as long list to, you know, from the subcontinent summit summit but who and Gautam's book, Gautam Bhatia's books were up there as well. It's a sign that things might be moving towards opening up and I am optimistic I'm very optimistic or I wouldn't be doing this. Thanks to you Lavanya and you Yudha and Samet and Gautam Bhatia, I mean, the knocking on the door is getting louder. It's just a matter before those doors come crashing down. I think it's just a matter of time. If things are anything to go by. Yeah, and quickly. Sorry, sorry, quickly adding like Yudha's book, salvage crew number one on audible. That's not a small achievement, you know, that's huge. So congratulations and go on. I mean, that's what I was about to get to, you know, the salvage crew is, you know, up the best list, your book, Gautam Bhatia's book, Samet's book on Locust List, Shivram Das, Nivedita Sen and you know, I know the Charma, they were all there on the Locust List as well. And so, you know, like I said, in the beginning, this year was the highest representation for Indian writers and by Indian writers, I mean, South Asian Indian writers still in India publishing from India. Right, so let me preface that before because if you expand the definition then we'll be here till the cost come home and explaining why that is. So yeah, I mean, good sign of things to come and also the community of one of the big things that America has which we didn't have to this. It was sort of community. I mean, they were always readers, but there was no community, no platforms to bring people together. That's there. Right, that whole thing of Garki Murgi, Dal Barabar is slowly changing. Right, Joseph Spirits was shortlisted for the JCB, I mean, right, usually it's only just lit fig that gets picked up. These are signs of changing times and I think, you know, it's going to change. Yeah. Absolutely, and as much as you know, you writers are doing a wonderful job. And thank you to all of you. I think it also comes back a lot on us readers to keep making noise about these books to kind of really, you know, just keep talking about it. Because they are worth talking about their awesome books. Thank you. I think that's a really relevant point. I mean, we wouldn't be here at all without readers. Nobody would want to publish science fiction out of this part of the world without people reading science fiction from this part of the world and, you know, everyone tuning in today and and listening to our conversation like thank you all because you make this possible and and that's amazing. Thank you. Thank you. A few last questions. One from Mad Max one who asks which is your favorite sci-fi book and another one from 1972 Sujata who asks, is there any platform for young aspiring like authors and your valuable inputs for them. Wow, favorite. I'll do the favorite sci-fi book first because I just have to say it's impossible to pick. It is truly impossible to pick there are so many unbelievable wonderful books out there. I can probably mention my favorite sci-fi books from the last year, I suppose like you know that we've mentioned them, we've mentioned all those books already there's some of us who's chosen spirits. The wall you've been driving at me the salvage through fantastic books all from South Asia, just in the last year alone, which is which is incredible. There's like influences or maybe wider influences. A lot of the classics. Ursula Le Guin is possibly one of my biggest influences. She's a marvelous, marvelous writer. Check out her left hand of darkness if you haven't read it already. Yeah, it's a huge thing like William Gibson, Kim Stanley Robinson, I can go on Octavia Butler, long list, long list. And the second question, I think, which was about aspiring writers, I think in terms of platforms. I'm not clear, like if we're talking about short story platforms in SFS, there are some of them. There's the Mittler Review, which is, you know, in Indian SFS Magazine, and they just brought out the 15th issue for congratulations to them, really glad to see them back. There are a ton of magazines like Strange Horizon, each one has their own niche of things they tend to like to publish. It's not dominant, it's a very subtle, you'll get a vibe for what they like to do, or the kinds of avenues they like to explore by reading them. It's a pretty complex, like our long answer, I think, but I would say, you know, look out for SFS magazines if you do write SFS. And in terms of advice of any sort, I would say the only thing you can do is to persevere and to keep writing. It's a hard space to operate on. It's a very subjective space, which makes it harder, but sort of keeping at it and reading a ton of stuff while you keep at it and reading stuff from every possible genre. I mean, most of the stuff I read is sci-fi fantasy, but I do read outside of those spaces as well. And if you can stay open to ideas and keep writing and keep persevering, I think that's the best thing you can do if you want to write.