 But it's really not Coronaville today. Tim Apachele, Winston Welch, Stephanie Dalton, Cynthia Sinclair, you know we can dispatch with Coronaville by saying it's getting much worse. Trump is doing nothing about it. We're not sure the distribution of the vaccines. We're not sure if they're going to work and right now they haven't yet had any effect. That's where we are on Coronaville. But let's talk about what happened yesterday. Let's continue the conversation from rediscovering in America that Tim was doing with you guys yesterday. Let me start with Tim. Tim, what does this teach us? I know there's a lot of lessons involved. But what's the first one comes to mind? First one comes to mind is when you start to see a leader that's acting more as an autocrat, point it out and take it seriously. Don't just say, oh that's just Donald Trump being Donald Trump. When you see it, you smell it. Most likely it's the real deal. And we didn't, as a nation, we didn't recognize early enough that he was capable of doing what we saw yesterday. We just passed it off as Donald being Donald. That's the first thing we should learn is when you see an autocrat, treat them like an autocrat. Right. Okay, all right. And you know what? When you say that, I think to myself, well maybe the nation didn't recognize it, but we here on Think Tech, we recognized that we were predicting these things a long time ago. And maybe we should have been more strident in our predictions. But maybe we were thinking we were out there and that there were people who wouldn't believe anything along those lines. Then in fact, we were right. We were right from day one. Well, we were out there and we got treated as such. Well, everybody gets stupid responses on YouTube. We're not the only ones. Cynthia, what do you make of this? And let me be more specific. What do we do about it? I mean, there's all kinds of commentary going on on the television, the radio, at least the television and radio that I listen to. And people don't necessarily agree on what should be done. What are your thoughts? I'm glad you gave me this question. Thank you. And do you remember yesterday when I yelled sedition? Still, even more so. So I have today the U.S. Code, 18 U.S. Code number 2384, seditious conspiracy with two or more persons in any state or territory or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspired to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority therefore, or by force to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States, contrary to the authority thereof. They shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned, not more than 20 years or both. And I say 20 years, maximum fine, all of them, including Donald Trump. I suppose he just pardons himself tomorrow. Well, got that. That is why I would like the 25th Amendment to be enacted now. So he cannot pardon himself or pardon any of these people that are going to be charged with sedition. Okay, now let's be candid, okay? You think that has a chance of happening? Yes, actually I do. Watching the news as I have this morning, every single pundit, even the Republicans, are talking about it. And now we've already got impeachment articles already being drawn up right now in the House. Which one do you prefer? The 20 minutes faster. Okay. Stephanie, you're into psychology. I wonder, you know, is this really a 25th situation? Let me add, if you haven't seen it, there are a lot of staffers in the White House who are leaving the White House. And in fact, the wife of Mitch McConnell, Elaine Chow, is it Secretary of Transportation Cabinet-level position, has quit. And a lot of people believe that he's really not so. And what has come out of this is that he's been stomping around the White House. He's been muttering to himself. He's a basket case. So anyway, there's a 25th work. And can you talk about the procedure by which Stephanie's dream can be realized? I want Cynthia's dream realized. And I want it immediately. And I think the 25th Amendment is the only way we get that. Yeah, it has to be out today or tomorrow or out of power and pants in instead. And of course, based on the fact that the competence was not there for the vulnerability this country has in its disarray before we had the major disarray in the domestic sense. So now that he's disturbed and coming to terms with his conditions and making difficulties, he's much less competent. So the incompetence, he's not capable of managing a major attack, which I am shocked that nobody is thinking about because we're sitting here. Everything totally messed up and our enemies are out there and they could certainly take advantage of this. Now, I think we need to thank God and our allies and our enemies for not doing anything, but it's not over yet. I mean, it could be sideways. Let's talk about the procedure though, Stephanie. What has to happen? Well, what has to happen is there has to be a letter coming from the cabinet up to, I guess, the Congress. So there's a two letter writing thing. So they ask for permission to believe him of duty and put it in the vice president. And then it has to come, then the whole cabinet has to show their agreement on that. And then they put the letter in again. I think, I guess it's to the Congress. I'm not sure on that. But there is, but that could happen. The cabinet are all his appointees. Many of them haven't been even consented to. You think they're going to vote against him? I mean, they're not the kind of people you would rely on, actually. Well, very iffy, unless they are all seen, and they're not all seen, as always Winston said, they'll come to their senses and they'll turn it all around. But this has propelled some of them to change their minds. And then we have the example of this crazy Lefler woman who, you know, didn't even go on until she'd been prodded by the press. And then she signed on and then immediately things started to happen. And then she had some insight and decided to get out. So I mean, they can change their minds. So as you said, Elaine Chao's going and Pence seems to want to play by the rules and would probably cooperate. And the rest of them are probably in the process of considering what to do themselves. Yeah. You know, in the last hour, we had Chuck Crumpton show on it's really a cousin of what we do here. And we had we had one one speaker there, one panelist who said, we have to, you know, hold Trump accountable. We have we have to he liked it. I think he liked the impeachment road. But he would also consider the 25th. And then Jeff Portnoy said, which made me think of you, he said, no, no, no, this is time for healing. You know, there's 70 million people out there, they're not going to like it. And, you know, they're going to be in the streets over it. And and we're not going to heal at all. We're going to have further divisiveness and who knows what, maybe further violence. So it's not a good idea, you know, to bring this to a head and try to have retribution or, you know, oversight over Trump now or even later. And we need to heal the country. That was his point. And then they said, then the moderator, Chuck Crumpton said, well, you know, we have a we have a tie here. One guy is on one side of this issue. One guy is the other side. We'll have the third guy break the tie. And he immediately said, no, we need to have accountability. Whereupon Jeff Portnoy said, let's get somebody else to break the tie. But the point is that we haven't learned our lesson. We have to have learned our lesson that the the man, the president will not stop. So if he isn't held accountable and given consequences, he will do the next worst thing. That's a good point. Winston, what do you say to that? This dumpster fire of a presidency is almost over, whether it's two weeks from now or tomorrow or today. The damage is done. And the main issue right now is how much more damage can you do in two weeks? And does does that need to be stopped right now? And I would say yes, via the 25th Amendment. And until yesterday, I think you would have had a lot of people saying on the Republicans, I'd say, oh, no, just let him finish out. He can't be that much more dangerous. He had his people go to the Congress and who knows, they were armed and dangerous. They had, were holding senators and representatives hostage in the Congress. They could have slaughtered them. We don't know what would have happened. But those Republicans, the ones that supported him and the ones that are, what do we call them now going to be free of Trump's influence as time goes by? The breakaways, the McConnell's of yesterday, from yesterday onwards. They were also under siege. So was Mike Pence. They were going in there saying, where's Mike Pence? They weren't doing it to liberate Mike Pence. They were going in there because Donald Trump told them he's on my official enemies list now. And so many words, as was McConnell and anybody else who opposed him. So if those people didn't get the bejesus scared out of them, they're not paying attention. And so at this point, for their health and safety, for the health and safety of America, of course, the supporters are going to be mad, you know, it's not going to, it's not going to, it's not going to matter. It's two weeks, two weeks not going to make a difference in the destruction that Donald Trump could do. Not the nuclear code. Yeah, he needs to be gone right now. His two weeks left are not going to shorten his awfulness. Well, actually it would shorten his awfulness because he could do tremendous damage in the next two weeks or the next two hours. So we need to be very confident of that and do the 25th amendment. Although, do we even know who the cabinet members are at this point? Could they round them up? And when you've lost someone like Elaine Chao, who was arguably a moderate person married to Mitch McConnell, she might have been like the one needed that you need to sign on for the amendment to take place. But from what I understand, if he signed it and then Donald Trump said, no, I am competent, it goes back to the Senate, they can deliberate for 21 days and they don't have to give a ruling. But Mike Pence would be in effect the president during that time. From what I understood yesterday, from what my simple reading, and Mike Pence, he's already chosen his side at this very late day. These guys were a day late in the dollar chart, but at least they showed up at the very, very end to do, to put the country over this, this field to Donald Trump. But it was very, very late in coming. And I'm glad they made it finally, but they should not be applauded. They should just be recognized that they made a right decision at the very last second. Tim, what about the party? What about the Republican Party? The commentators calling the Republican Party dead today on television. They were saying it's gone. They're moonwalking as fast as they can right now. They realized that Donald Trump has done something so horrific as the party leader that they've followed blindly and loyally to. They realized that he's between the phone call to the Secretary of State of Georgia, that one hour transcript, plus the enticement and incitement for his followers to trash the Capitol. They know that's a bridge too far and they are going to moonwalk away. They already aren't right now, but you watch in the next three weeks, more and more are going to say, what a horrible man Donald Trump was as a leader. So to discuss the merits of 25th Amendment or the impeachment, it's not about now. It's about the next Democrat or the next Republican or the next independent who becomes the nominee then, but president to think twice, think three times before they try to pull off something that Donald Trump has pulled off. It's to send a message and a lesson. Thou shall not mess with this government and the democracy of this government. What about his chances in 2024? Remember 70 million people voted for him. Do you think he has a flying chance after this? Jay, this is nothing more for him to raise more money. He's not serious to run in 2024. Look, as far as his mental capability, he's not going to have it in 2024. He's falling apart right now. He's unraveling. You think four more years and he's not going to be, you know, he's going to be totally unraveled. So all this is like the protest of the vote that the vote was stolen. It was, you know, I've been cheated out of this presidency of a second term. All this is about is raising money for his own campaign and his own, his own ability to fly wherever he wants or pay for attorneys or whatever he's doing with the $300 million that he's raised since November the third. That's all this is. 2024 is just a campaign raised effort. I agree. I agree that that is an important point and that's his leverage. I mean, assuming he, you know, stays sentient and competent and he can use that money. It was a lot of money, as I recall. You had the figure last time was something over 200 million, was it? I think he's closer to 300 million now. Okay, so that's, that's critical because that allows him to primary other Republicans and to fight the Democrats in 2024 and means a lot. The money means a lot, you know, fall over attorneys, Jay, pay for attorneys. Yeah, but here's the thing. And I want to propose an idea that I've had to Cynthia and see what she thinks. Okay. Yesterday, they ransacked the Capitol of the United States. And you mentioned, Cynthia, that that's criminal what happened there and Trump ought to be, you know, prosecuted for that. And he can be by even by the Department of Justice memorandum, you know, limiting prosecution of a sitting president, he's going to be out of office in two weeks. And he won't be, you know, protected by that. And somebody can prosecute him. I don't know if Merrick Garland is going to do that. He'll be Department of Justice. And it's clear from what Biden said this morning that, you know, he expects Merrick Garland to be an independent Department of Justice person. So who's to say, but there's another angle here. The damage to the Capitol, my guess, just off the wall, looking at the photos was maybe 30, 40, 50 million dollars meant to put the place back together again is going to cost the taxpayers a ton of money. And this damage was done by Trump at Trump's suggestion by his agents. And it seems to me that he has civil liability for that much money. And furthermore, if a judgment is obtained, that judgment can go against his big pack money that he controls, and all of a sudden his 300 million dollars ain't 300 million dollars. And by the way, I think they could also get a punitive damages. So what do you think about that idea? You think it's worth doing that? Well, I think that my smile kept getting wider and wider and wider, as I heard you talking about the things that we could do. And yes, I think he should absolutely be responsible. You know, you talk about some of the people that were involved in this. There was a guy named Derek Evans, who was just recently elected to the West Virginia House. And he was there. There's a picture of him with one of those helmets on going yelling and screaming. So we need to remember that this isn't just a problem with the White House and the Cabinet or the Congress. It trickles all the way down to, you know, to all of the people that. So I mean, this is just an example of what's out there. And Republicans have been, I don't know, worming their way. It's the only way I can think of, worming their way into these state houses so that they can control more. And so I think people need to really start being more aware of their local, you know, their local elections, their local people. Because it really does matter. We don't think about that. We all get involved in these presidential elections and, you know, senators and all this stuff. And we forget about how important the state guys are, the local governors and mayors. And so I think it's important for us to really start looking now that people are involved. Let's all start really looking at all this down ballot stuff too. Yes, it's important to have a really good president. We didn't have one last time. I believe we will have one this time. And I think you really start looking at that. Stephanie, you know, we've been talking about the base over the past four years. And it's been sort of a generic term. And, you know, the definition is elusive, exactly. Who are they? Can you show me a person from the base? Can you define them? Can you give them character? Can you give us a little detail on what kind of people are in the base? And it strikes me that yesterday we saw them up front. We saw the base. They came from all over the country. And they demonstrated who they are, what they are, what they say, do, how they dress, what they think of the government and their relationship to the government, their kind of loyalty to Trump. I mean, what did it reveal to us about this pernicious group of people who would engage in such activities? What do we know more about them now? Well, you know, we don't know enough about some sectors, layers, stratifications of the population and the kind of sampling that the polls do. And what's so interesting to me is that a colleague of mine is just publishing a paper about who are the educated college women or who are the unedged looking at the women. And so she's been digging into the polls to find out all the confusions that there are in the definitions of educated, somewhat educated, and it's not even clear as to who are these educated people with bachelor's degrees, or are they with AA degrees, or Tamgit, or what. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. I think that's the tip of the iceberg. And as I saw these men yesterday, I know there's that sad story of the woman that was shot. I don't understand how she got in there, but she did. Four people died. This one was shot by the police. But here Nancy Pelosi's office was a guy, white guy, okay, white, you know, mature, wonderful guy with his boots on, his feet up on Nancy Pelosi's desk. And all of them going through there, you know, were in that, what, 30, well, I saw him as 30 to 60 people, you know, healthy, white males. And so with whom we didn't know about whether they were armed or not, we couldn't really tell, think the heavens that that kind of wasn't an issue either. But so I think your question is so important because we do need to know who are these people in his base. And I, because we need to know how it is that they think and how we need to understand them. So I think your question is so important. And we need that research done on who they are. And why is it that I understand that the motivation for some of these senators and reps in participating in the charade, sham and coup, that they're trying to get a position in the minds and in the consideration of these people to go for them as the next president or for whatever their political goals are. So what is it that they value in these people? And then that the controversy about that is, it's a Trump thing, and it really isn't replicable. So Trump has no values. He has no ideology, just all about him. And I think these people are focused on him as a cult. But let's go further. Winston, you know, we are going to learn a lot about government and building security in Washington, about how the Capitol Police function or should function, how the Washington Police Department functions or should function. And you know, the various government agencies that have police, you know, we're supposed to deal with this sort of thing. We learned a lot yesterday about that, but we will learn much more because undoubtedly there will be an investigation. It'll last for a while. It'll come up with some really horrible conclusions about how inept they were or worse. You know, it could be that they were even a little soft on the protesters. They let them in. Somebody told me that they were taking snapshots with their cameras, you know, and it's like a festival, which is just screwball crazy for police to do that. In any event, at the same time, the people who were there, the protestors is the wrong word, the insurrectionists, they also learned and will learn by an examination of what happened, how to organize, what kind of things to bring, what kind of weapons to bring, how you how you breach a government building, what you do when you get inside, you know, sort of a focused attack, what kind of command control and communications. You know, this is actually at the end of the day, it's scary because the next time may not be easy to quell. What do you think? Well, you know, we had a test run in Michigan, didn't we, with the State House there being taken over and nothing done. And that was a shocking display of folks going in there like that. And of course, we want our government buildings to be open and accessible to normal people. But when there's a riot coming that's going to destroy or attack your fundamental, you know, institutions of government, based on, you know, a demagogue like this, we have to really rethink about, and you notice this in any new federal building designs, they have, they're set back from the street, they have blast barriers, they have the whole a lot of security built into them. Something was up with this today yesterday because I saw that the officers going backwards, you know, they weren't firing warning shots and say, you need to disperse. There was no, you know, wall of pepper spray that could have been dispersed. I don't know what was going on. I heard 35. Capitol Police were there. I also heard about the selfie thing. But on the other side, I had heard that maybe they were told, give all possible restraint, because we don't want to create a martyrdom situation here for these folks who said that they were prepared to die. And that might be why they didn't respond. I don't know. Like you said, we're going to find out a lot more. But we absolutely, this is part of this entire repair and revision and just looking at our basic structures in society. So it's not only the laws and the mechanisms, but it's also the, we have to include the physical structures. Now, Donald Trump's, the White House is completely surrounded by a massive wall now. So that place is secure. But the fact that the Congress wasn't, when they knew this, there were meetings with the Attorney General, with the National Security Advisor this week about how and others in the White House about how they were going to deal with these crowds and what they should do, why that didn't take place when they knew this was going to be an issue. And he invited people to be wild at 11 a.m. on Wednesday. And this wasn't absolutely prepared for, is shocking and inexcusable. Well, I think it doesn't demonstrate that the government under Trump has become incompetent. And this is just part of that incompetence. You know, it's fragmented. There's no leadership. There's no morale. There's no organization. And a lot of agencies have been hollowed out. And at the same time, the country is in a kind of civil war right now. It's so divided. And then people walk around with guns and breach the state houses and the Congress. I mean, we have a major problem Biden's going to have to address. But let me, you know, ask you, you know, one of the so interesting questions, Tim, that was, you know, sort of on the fringe yesterday is what about the military? What about the National Guard? What about the Army? What about the Chiefs of Staff? How did they play in this? What drummer were they listening to? Well, you know, that's really interesting, Jay. That's a great question because there are reports that the Chief of Staff went directly to Mike Pence and said, I think we got to get some security in here. We're going to have to get some National Guard in here. And isn't it odd that they wouldn't even think to consider going to Donald Trump, their boss? And, you know, Mike Pence stepped up to the play. I'm not a fan of Mike Pence. I think he's been a real enabler of this dictator of ours. And he has a lot of blame. But yesterday he stood up. He stood up on his hind legs, and he played the role that he was took the oath of office to. I'm glad it happened. But Mike Pence was a big part of this. Yeah, but where was the Army? Why didn't the Army show up? Well, it's the National Guard, Jay. The Army installations around Washington. Why didn't they help? It would be the National Guard. And so the Virginia National Guard and 200 of the state police were called in. They just weren't there in time. They called in the troops. You know, the Calvary way too late. Yeah, that was a piece about a woman. I think she was a legislator or a staffer in the Capitol building. And she got on the phone and she called the joint chiefs. She said, you know, there's an insurrection going on. Can you get over here? And she got no response from them. So it was an imperfect reaction for sure. We're almost out of time. And I just want to ask you guys one more question. Go around the horn here. What comes to mind on the question of how this affects our democracy? Cynthia? I am shocked that I'm going to be quoting Bill Barr because I'm just shocked to even hear this from him, to be honest. He says, orchestrating a mob to pressure Congress is inexcusable. The president's conduct yesterday was a betrayal of his office and supporters. And I think he should take it one step further and say, and the whole country, not just his supporters. And my hero of the week goes to the staffers, the girls, the clerks who went back and rescued all of the votes and the electoral college, the Electoral Club paperwork, because had that been taken or destroyed, they would have had to go all the way back to the states again and have the states reissue those. Yeah. Very good point. Very good point. Stephanie, what's your thought? How does this affect our democracy? Well, I think that this experience as harrowing and frightening as it has been, has educated the entire nation. I mean, on the way our government works, I think that our best benefit out of it is that, certainly, there are a few people who haven't learned more about how a democracy works, what democracy means, and what it is we have to do to preserve and protect it. So I think that we've got a plus. That's silver lining. And that will bode us well going forward because we have run off the cliff, all right, off the tracks, and we've got to get back on. And now the whole country is a little bit better informed about how to do that and what has to happen. Hope so. What about you, Winston? You have family on the East Coast. They don't particularly support progressive and liberal views, and they are Republicans and Trumpers. You think this changed their thinking? Well, like every family in America, we have people that have supported Donald Trump for whatever reasons. I think that there's got to be some sort of carrier wave on Fox News because that's the primary problem as far as I could tell, although they're migrating fast to Newsmax in America 1 and soon Trump TV. But if this doesn't wake up people and say, this is not about this man's non-policy, and when you ask her, what's the good that he's done in this nation? This is the legacy of Donald Trump, is the Capitol being trashed and ransacked by the Zagots and Vandals. And that's his legacy. That is what we've got, and a hollowing out hateful, hate-filled, angry, sick America. And that's the legacy that we've got. If people don't see it, they just need to go look around. They need to go to Safeway or Costco and look, you've got to wear a mask to get in. How many times do we afford to have this before people get the idea? Well, if this doesn't happen, then the message is not going to get through. Tim, one of the things of interest is the woman who was shot. Somebody in the government had a gun. I'm not sure that it was the Capitol police. I doubt it was. It might have been intelligence agencies in blue suits inside the Capitol building, and this woman was too aggressive, and they shot her. How do you feel about the fellow who shot her? Is he a hero or a bum? How do you feel about dealing with people who come and ransack the heart of our government this way? Should they be shot? Two answers to this. First, I'd like to address Winston. Winston, I am a descendant of vandals in Vithigas. Number two is, Jay, they found individuals with loaded, locked and loaded weapons. They found bombs within the Capitol. What have we become if we can't protect our own Capitol? Again, if you attack the Pentagon, I guarantee you're shot on site. You try to gain entry into a military base. You are shot on site. Is he a hero? I wouldn't say he's a hero, but he did his job. He did what he was instructed and trained to do, and it's unfortunate that someone thought they had the carte blanche authority to go in there and jeopardize the lives of our senators and congressmen and do so without any consequences and do so with impunity. I'm sorry this woman was shot and died. Again, lessons need to be learned on both sides, and certainly any would-be Trump protester that thinks they can go in with their AK-47s and have no consequences, they should think again. Yeah, and what's ironic about it is they weren't wearing masks or abiding by social distancing, and in two weeks' time, whether they stay in jail or not, they'll probably be sick. I guess there is a justice there. Cynthia Sinclair, Stephanie Dalton, Tim Appichella, Winston Welch, thank you so much you guys. There's more to come, I guarantee we'll be talking about this some more next week. Aloha.