 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we have with us Karamat Ali who is a human rights activist in Pakistan and has been taken up a number of issues for a very long time. Karamat, good to have you back with us. Thank you. Karamat, recently of course the Malala shooting is in the news all over the world. Do you think it has made a difference to Pakistan the way people have reacted to this particular shooting of a 15-year-old girl? Yeah, definitely. See, even before this incident she has been travelling in different parts of Pakistan and she is quite a remarkable child, very, very aware of what is happening and very progressive thinking person. So, she was making an impact already. A number of schools had been named after her. She was invited to all the major cities like in Karachi whenever she came she stayed with us. Her father is a very good friend. So, very sort of extraordinary kind of child and obviously she was not afraid of threats which she was getting and in the beginning of last month we used to kind of communicate quite regularly. So, she called to say uncle come this is all fine now there is no problem no security issues I go to school on my own so no problem. So, she had inspired quite a lot of people already and she had become a very well-known figure iconic figure for the right of the girl child exactly and to stand up to these people who are extremely brutal and you know what they did when they took over Swat was very well known. So, under such conditions a young girl standing up to them speaking out writing a diary that has already it had made a big sort of impact. So, the attack on her really triggered something across the whole country regardless of where you come from which class you belong to. So, this was something I mean I have only known this in my own experience I mean I do not believe in war. So, I will not refer to people uniting during the time of a silly war, but in during the 1968-69 movement against Ayub Khan's dictatorship that was one time when we saw people kind of coming out speaking out getting together and you know breaking all the kind of you know the fear that was imposed upon people. So, this is what I have seen this time because Taliban had also been able to in a way instill a lot of fear amongst people because one their brutality, but their outreach had become quite extraordinary. They were attacking I mean you can imagine they attacked the GHQ, they went and attacked this air base and they went and attacked this naval base and then they were attacking people who they do not like at will. So, that was some kind of an atmosphere of complete fear where people were not challenging them and they were gradually expanding their sphere of influence like even in the city like Karachi. We know areas now where we are told Taliban they set up their own courts and they were administering sentences that they gave to people and they extorted money and whatever. So, I think this incident really triggered something extraordinary and hopefully that can be sustained and there is a counter offensive at the political ideological level against such forces. You know we had the Salman Taseer's killing and then you had the issue that the judge who sentenced the killer had to leave the country. Do you think that this kind of things would change with the Malala attack? I am sure I think it has already started that process because I am sure you know you know about this killer of Salman Taseer suddenly there were demonstrations in Pakistan by some forces who were demanding his release and we also know that Salman Taseer's son had been abducted and is in the custody of such people who want to bargain. He is still alive. He is still alive. He had been in touch with the family. So, all such forces have been put in a defensive position. Now the thing is you know like as far as ordinary people are concerned they have shown their disapproval discussed with such elements. The state has to take a decisive action against these people and unfortunately because in Pakistani politics there are a number of mainstream political parties who have a soft corner or even more than that links with the Taliban and they want to see consensus being built before any action can be taken. So, I feel the state has to really act now and take action against them. You do not create consensus around people who are murderers who are killers who they must be punished and the law does not ask for any consensus. I mean there is already a consensus. Karabat the real issue has always been that a section of the Pakistani state and the military establishment has seen in these forces a kind of strategic depth in Afghanistan and possibly also in India vis-a-vis what is being thought of in Kashmir. So, do you think that this section of the Pakistani state which has been implicated at least by a lot of people in these kind of forces that you are talking about that this section of the Pakistani state would rethink, would be isolated, could be controlled, could be changed? I am sure. I think one you know if you look at the incidents that I mentioned where some of the bastions of the military power of the state had been attacked in broad daylight in the most blatant manner. So, I think that should also teach something to those sections who had soft kind of corners for these people. But you know along with the brutality of the Taliban and the need to counter them, this whole notion of strategic depth or this whole notion of kind of you know a particular perspective on what is defense and how we deal with our neighbors, all that has come under very, very detailed discussion now and even today's paper I was reading you know at least two people writing about the foolishness of this notion of Afghanistan being the area of strategic depth. So, somebody has written no, it is not Afghanistan, our strategic depth lies in Balochistan. So, if we are alienating Balochistan, we should forget about the strategic and why do we need that depth? Why can we go for a peaceful coexistence with our neighbors and sort out our issues, develop more cooperation, more trade? So, that will ensure. Well, the question of strategic depth is really almost the 19th century concept where you think of other countries as your strategic depth. Today's world really think about softer borders, more you know cooperation between countries, less militarization as really the way to. And also this strategic depth thing you know it implies that first of all you will make a retreat and then you find a place to go to. But why get yourself in such a position? Why go to war in the first place? Why not find peaceful solution? And I think that is really in a way if you look at the recent development of dialogue between India and Pakistan, you already see some very basic changes taking place on the issue of trade for example. You know Pakistan has now agreed to grant MFN status to India and by December this process will be complete. And if you remember initially there was this whole this group of people, political parties and these so called you know jihadis and the religious parties, they came together under this umbrella organization called Defense of Pakistan Council. And their main plank was we will not allow Pakistan to accord the MFN status to India because India is our eternal enemy etc. They were all choking all over Pakistan. But once this agreement was formalized, they have not been able to organize a single rally. So, it shows a lot to me as to what is going on in front of us and behind the scenes, especially among those forces who had a particular view of themselves, of India, of security. I think international situation, our economic circumstances they are forcing everybody to rethink and that sense we are moving in the right direction. So, I think all these things put together create a great opportunity for all those who want peace, who want progress for ordinary people to come together and really give it a big push. So, Karabat you think that the Balala shooting, however unfortunate obviously it is for Malala and the fact that she has been shot in the head and is still in a critical condition though improving, also brings about the situation where there is a possibility of bringing peace, the agenda of peace to the fore. Oh sure, definitely, definitely because you know this one incident has really, really in a way sort of woken up people because for many people living in Karachi, you know, like in defense housing society or wherever, they thought all this is like far away from us and suddenly people are saying no, I mean, you know, you saw that headband with I am Malala, now these are women coming out of the upper class household, they were not part of the labor movement or anything. So, I think that really touched the deep core of the people of Pakistan. And the fact that this was a child who was a girl because you know in Pakistani society, it is very important that women who are seen to be inferior and there is a person who has really demonstrated something completely different. This is obviously touched as you are saying a deep chord, but you know in India for instance, there is not that understanding of Pakistan and a lot of people say, yeah, okay, this will happen for 15 days, 20 days, but it will be business as usual. This you don't think is so and there is a really qualitative shift because of one incident and sometimes history moves through incidents of this kind. So, you think this is really historical movement. I think it is, you know, like we keep talking about defining moments, defining moments. I think we don't have many defining moments in our history. We have them rarely. So, we have the defining moments which have gone the other. Exactly. But this is to me a defining moment really in the sense that it has raised, I mean, you see, you can see people resisting dictatorship, you can see people opposing one view or the other, but not necessarily questioning the political ideological basis of what policies in Pakistan whether in the name of defence or economic development or integrity of the state. So, all that, you know, begins to be challenged and that to me is very, very important. I am not saying this will be an automatic process and will lead to changes. It will need obviously very, very well thought out, organised political, ideological, mobilisational activities because as you know, you said very rightly, you know, within the state structures such elements have you know, they have made deep penetration and it is not so easy to dislodge them. But the process has started and that is very important and the process has started at a mass level. You know, Karabat that also brings me to another important question. It is always easier to fight the state because people have known historically how to fight the state. They have come on the streets, they demonstrate and you have seen even in Egypt such a powerful state actually breaking up in front of the opposition by the people. When it comes to armed groups which are already a part of society, it is the fear psychosis that is really much more difficult to break. Do you think in that sense, this is a unique issue of how to confront the fear psychosis of in which armed militants are already a part of your society? You see, when this happened and you know, people started calling for demonstration, then we all went to demonstrate. There was this sort of on the back of one's mind to be careful because there was the likelihood of these people attacking such demonstrations. But two things, one was that you had to be careful and mindful of all that. But the fact that they did not dare attack anywhere up till now and they were the demonstrator were mostly women in all the big cities. They were mostly women, young women who came out. So, one that fear was not there. Second, they also they were put in a defensive position by doing this. They did not expect this kind of a reaction. So, I think both these developments give a lot of optimism that you can actually translate this opportunity into a movement against extremism and fundamentalism and the militarism that has prevailed all these years in every sphere of life in Pakistan. Karabat, if this is a defining moment in Pakistan, how do you think the civil society, the political forces in India must react in order to make this happen in Pakistan? Because the dynamics of Pakistan in India has a resonance with each other or a dissonance with each other if you will. Sure. No, I really I will go even further. I think it is whatever happens in Pakistan, unless people of India and Pakistan do not get together and deal with these issues as common issues, we will not be able to really succeed in Pakistan on our own because as you know the forces that are inimical to any democratic peaceful development are much stronger there and they always use India as an excuse to further expand their influence and power. So, if there is for example, you said you know people are thinking maybe it will run for another two weeks. No, it should not be allowed to run out like that. There should be demonstrations there and I am glad that I have seen very good coverage in the Indian press. People have come out, people have you know expressed their disgust at what has happened but lot more needs to be done. I think there should be a sort of a more sort of open demonstration of solidarity, communication with people who are taking up those issues there and also on the part of Indian states to express their resolve that we should fight this together. I mean after all within the SARC process, we have a convention on combating terrorism and it is there since 1987. This incident should actually you know motivate us to put together that joint mechanism to combat terrorism and to you know to kind of unite our resolve and forces to do that and send a very strong message to these elements that they are not confronting the Pakistani people and the state alone but this is a regional issue and people in the region and the states in the region will come together to to get rid of the problem of the two states is the minute you get their agencies into one room there is a Pavlovian reflex by which they start planning each other. So, I think the real issue is how the society at large can take the initiative outside as well so that this pressure of the state agencies are more and they do not think that this is business as usual. Exactly no that is what I am saying it the initiative has to come from the people but I am saying there is a an obligation of the state institutions as well once you you know if you are part of an arrangement which is SARC you have signed a chartered meaning you have committed yourself to certain things and you you have worked out this convention together so there is an obligation so that in that context I am saying the state has had the basis to to intervene in such situation intervening not the way they have been intervening up till now but in a more positive sense to curb this phenomenon. So, what you really saying is that in both sides you should build pressure on the states the state machineries to really do what they have signed up to do which they have not done. Exactly I think that is very important and unfortunately up till now people in India and Pakistan and in other South Asian countries we have not really seriously looked at all these developments we have really ignored them and there have been some substantial developments you know in terms of commitments in terms I mean you have set up a development fund together you talking about a food bank you are talking now activate them this sense of being South Asians need to be really enhanced at this particular moment and so that these elements whether they are extremist of the Muslim brand or a Hindu brand or whatever or a Buddhist brand in Sri Lanka they can be isolated by South Asians together as a united force and I think this these kind of incidents they do provide us with such possibilities historical windows of opportunity exactly must be seized must be mixing my metaphors. Thank you. Thank you Karabat. Thank you.