 Hello everyone and welcome to Entrepreneur India's Smart Investing Series. We are kickstarting this very special series today with a timely topic of investing safely during COVID-19. The main purpose of this series is to provide our audience with useful tips on how they can invest and manage their money to grow their wealth. I'm Shipra and I'll be moderating this very interesting panel. We have put together to discuss how investors can navigate the choppy markets, stay the course with their goals and manage their investments during COVID-19. So let me lay the ground rule for our attendees. We please request you to attend the webinar from a quite room or an office with headphones and sit in an area with maximum internet signal to avoid any lag during the webinar. Post a 30 minute discussion with our speakers. We will be holding a Q&A session for all the attendees. So the attendees who are willing to ask questions will be automatically unmuted and will be asked to ask their questions. If you want to ask submit your questions, please do so in the Q&A box present at the below of the screen. We will spend approximately 15 minutes at the end of the session to answer questions. So before that, please hear our speakers intently and be ready with your questions. So to open the Q&A box, you can click on the Q&A box and you can submit your question there. Okay, so let me start by introducing our speakers. We have with us today Shri Khan Subramanian who heads private wealth investments and advisory practice at Kotak Investment Advisors Limited. Additionally, he supervises the wealth advisory desk across the international markets of Singapore, London and the US. Shri Khan joined the Kotak Mahindra Group in 2001 and in close to two decades with the firm he has worked across businesses and functions including life insurance, wealth management and investment advisory. Shri Khan has also been a member of the working group on SEBI regulations in 2009. Our second speaker is Rahul Jain. He heads the wealth management business for salary professionals and H&Is at Edelweiss wealth management. He started his journey with Edelweiss in 2008 as a zonal business head and has since then grown multiple levels to building and heading a business unit. Rahul has been instrumental in integrating two businesses of Edelweiss financial advisor and client advisory services into Edelweiss personal wealth advisory. A firm believer of customer centricity, he has been credited for involving a retail advisory business into a full-fledged wealth management business. I am delighted to welcome all the speakers. Thank you very much for joining us today. So let me start the discussion with the topic which right now concerns most of the salaried individuals. With businesses disrupted due to the virus due to COVID-19, salaried individuals are taking salary cuts as much as 60%. Appraisals have been shelved and of course jobs are being lost. So you know all this can be a major setback for investments and financial goals of individual investors. So let me start with you Shrikanth. How do you suggest that individuals can manage their investments so that their financial goals don't suffer in the long run even if they are taking a salary cut? Well, thanks Shrikanth and also welcome to Rahul, my co-panelist and also to all the audience. I hope I'm audible Shrikanth. Yeah, yeah, you're audible. No, it's an interesting question and I do agree with you that most of the salaried professionals have seen it fairly difficult as far as the current era of COVID is concerned. My limited two bits of advice to everyone would be that as much as possible do not derail from the discipline of investment that you've created. But that also means that it should not get precedence over any kind of borrowing that you may be tempted to make. I think in the long run what is absolutely crucial is that all of us learn to live within our means. So earlier if I were to get 100 rupees as my salary income and I was able to meet my lifestyle expenses and all my other expenses in about 60, 70 rupees and the balance 20 to 30 rupees is something that I was investing. And if there is any possibility to invest anything within that 20 to 30 rupees, we should continue to invest. But if it has gone, if for some unfortunate reason, the expenses have not gone down as much, but the salary has gone down more than I think do not worry. Right now hold tight, have your expenses to the bare minimum as possible, try not to take any unforeseen loans that you may be tempted to take as easy thing. And once it is over, come back to the discipline of investing and if there are any chances, because what has happened is while your income levels have dropped. For most of us, I'm also a salary professional. For most of us, our expenses have also dropped considerably, whether it's to do with the fuel expense, whether it's to do with any other kind of entertainment, eating out, leisure. So most of those expenses have also come off. So I think it is time that we take a hard look at our expenses, make it a very strongly disciplined personal balance sheet of ours. And if there is any IOTA of possibility of continuing the investment, I would strongly recommend, but not at the cost of taking any borrowings. Yeah, you said it rightly, Shri Khan that even if our salaries have gone down so have our expenses, you know, especially when we were in a strict lockdown, we practically had no avenue to spend except for utilities and everything else. Rahul, what would you like to add here? So I think I largely agree with the point that Shri Khan said, but since Shri Khan has already spoken about investments, I think if you look from financial goals point of view, the current environment, your growth rate, inflation, all are very important part that you make your plans because that is how you evaluate current value and future value, time horizon of investments. But I think in this whole pandemic, one thing which is also coming out very clearly, which was your basic question also about the salary cuts, uncertainty of jobs, etc, which are there. I think keeping that into mind, there are certain things which I would like to advise to the viewers and attendees. One is that since this is now like a hanging sword in your head, there can be a job cut, etc. If you have a contingency plan, a contingency fund which should be there, at least six months of expenses should be in a contingency fund. It should be in a liquid fund on an FD. I think it's a good time where you have to reprioritize your goals. So certain goals are very important like your child education. So that should be adequately, you should have money around the same. But there are discretionary goals also like buying a car which can be deep prioritized, that is second. Third is what Srikant also said that the expenses have gone down. But yes, you should also be very clear that your discretionary expenses should be reduced, that is the third one. And fourth is that I think it's a good time to reassess your risk profile because your risk profile is like willingness and your ability. And right now the ability really goes on because your job is uncertain, your salary cut is happening, which reduces your ability to take a risk. And obviously this time you would have also reassessed your abilities, how much you can manage the risk in the current environment would be a good reflection for you. So these are three or four points which you should consider while thinking about your investments in such current scenario of pandemic, etc. Yeah, a very relevant point, Rahul. In fact, about the financial risk, I would like to revisit this again later. But let me start with the specifics of investing. So this is about how to manage your overall cash flow and everything. So if we have to talk about specifics of investing, let's start with equity. So, you know, the COVID-19 like crisis send shockwaves around stock market back in March. BSc, Sensex fell to about 28,000 points and though it has gained some 10,000 points since but the markets still remain highly volatile. So, Rahul, what are guiding to you should be the investing strategy of equity investors in volatile markets? So for me, when I look at investing strategy, I look at equity or other classes separately, I look at it the holistic way. For me, BSc is one of the ways which has been working whether it's a bull market or whether it's a bear market. And asset allocation is what it's about understanding investment objective, risk appetite and investment horizon. And then you get a good portfolio which is a mix of debt, equity and gold all across. So I think depending on the on your risk appetite, your investment horizon, what age you are, you can have a good asset allocation ratio. And then depending on whether you're in a bull market or bear market effectively, you can realign your equity portfolio accordingly. We always believe that you should ensure booking your profits in equity regularly and also when the downturn is there, you should use this opportunity. The best part of asset allocation which I feel is that it takes out the emotion of investing. I think it rationalizes one risk to the behavior which is otherwise guided by mostly greed and fear. We have often seen people blind to risk and bull markets and blind to opportunities in a bear market. Asset allocation as such in that sense helps you in achieving on both the sides. So asset allocation of the strategy works well. Yeah, completely true. But you know, so I was just reading some reports and I was reading amphidata also. So what I saw was that you know, in the beginning in March and April, the MF inflows were not so much impacted SIP especially, but later in, in May, June, the inflows came down. Maybe it had to do with salary cuts or, you know, we can't know what the reasons were, but it did happen. So Srikanth, let me ask you, you know, in such a case, the basic behavior even though we tell our, you know, the investors that okay, you know, in a falling market, don't heed the markets, you know, fearing that your market, your money will go down further. In fact, wait for the market to correct. And then if you have to exit, then you wait for it to start rebounding again. But the general investor behavior is to exit when the market is falling. And we have seen that this time also it was no exception. You know, another trend which I have seen is I was also reading some report by Zerodab that a lot of young investors I have started flocking to direct stock trading during this pandemic. So on one hand we see MF inflows going down but on the other hand we are seeing, you know, a spike in investor interest in stock trading. So how do you see it? How do you see this trend among young investors? How, how, you know, safe or how do you see it basically? I think very relevant question. So both points of yours. I think you answered it yourself. I think SIP is a good, safe way. And I think Rahul made a much relevant point on the overall concept of asset allocation. And I would seriously urge all the listeners to actually give a lot of credibility to what he said because it's not a question of equity and debt. It's always a question of your overall asset allocation. Drilling it down specifically to equity. You made a point and point that SIPs have a lot of value because if you continue with the journey of SIPs over a long period of time, you would have seen markets at high levels, low levels and it sort of had this whole tendency to average it out. And I think all of us have always heard, listened, but never unfortunately fully implemented that the real reward of investing in equity markets is over long periods of time. There is a power of compounding and there is a simple rule of 72 that many of us follow. All that the rule of 72 says is 72 divided by the percentage of returns that you get is the number of years it takes for your money to double. For example, if you believe that you will get 12% rate of return, 72 divided by 12 is six years, your money will double. Now, and usually you can anyone can check this factual data Indian markets over the last 10 years is in the region of 1112%, which means all of us know that if we just stick to that philosophy do not get swayed by what is happening right now because these markets are much more resilient than one year going here or one year going there. And if we continue our journey through the mode of SIP, then 11% 12% from a growing economy like India is not too difficult to expect. And if that be true, we are looking at six years seven years for the compounding benefit to really look at your money sort of doubling it's pure mathematics. It's not any advice that I'm giving on your point of stock trading. Yes, I think with all that is happening in the market. Because of players like zero that you mentioned, there has been a lot of technological disruption, which is giving the new millennials the new professionals ability to trade on a very seamless and a friction free on platforms such as zero and many others, and also on very low cost. And I think it's a brilliant thing because it is leading to democratization of investors who have always been very very of entering into stock markets didn't know who to call how to call and there was always that inertia. And also there was an expensive that now feel more comfortable, just onboarding themselves onto a platform, which is done in a very user friendly manner, very cost effective. And they feel that they could using that platform start buying some stocks or to that extent the story is absolutely apt. But my very strong word of caution is that stock market, unfortunately, is not all art. It is also science. There is a reason why certain stocks do well and there is a reason why certain stocks do badly. And there is a reason why there are so many professionals who are employed in the area of equity research and management and mutual fund that each of these stocks, ultimately behave in the way the underlying companies are set to behave. So my limited word of caution and advice to all my fellow listeners is it is absolutely brilliant that they are able to get platforms and they feel much more comfortable buying and selling stocks, but they should very clearly decide. Are they in this for the purposes of trading and making quick money, or are they in this as long as creators, if they are in this for the former. Well, there is very limited value that I can do because then there is not much that you can do with research or science, you get lucky you don't get lucky you win some you lose some. But as far as long term creation is concerned, if they are going to these platforms and, and both advice and could also are offering these kind of platforms to investors. I think they should do the second part of it also right. Not only should they invest in stocks, but I think they should, they are well advised to read about the companies that they are buying if not do in depth research, a little bit of what the companies into how the, what level of cash flow the company has, what is the profitability of the company, what kind of revenue growth the company has, how much the debt as the company has. It may look too technical, but trust me, if you do that over six months to one year, just have about five or six parameters that you look at in about six months time you will get a hang of how to look at companies, which you think will not be into any big risks and big volatility. So my limited point, it's a great healthy trend, but it should be alongside with exercising a lot of caution should not be done only for trading purposes should be done to create wealth over long periods of time. So on that note, what you just said about the fundamentals of stock investing, we have a question from one of our readers was asking, sorry viewers was asking that our pharma and stocks and attract proposition for the next one to two years. Anything you would like to suggest this viewers Shrikanth on pharma and it stocks, whether they are an attractive proposition for the next five to six months. Both of them are done exceedingly well. So pharma stocks are almost close to the 52 week high some of the ID stocks are doing exceptionally well. I would refrain from giving too much of a sector view because our own view as of now is, COVID has been such an unknown unknown that taking a sector bet in an ecosystem like this, it can have multiple ramifications. I think what we are dealing with right now is very limited transparent information. So I think what the view of our own form is to why do not ditch overall equity as an investment class, but do not go too much as far as sector bias is concerned. So I will have to stick to the view that our own view is we are not being too bullish or bearish about any sector. We are looking at it as a slightly more diversified call, but any investor looking at pharma, which intuitively looks like it's going to be a great bet because of all that has happened in general consciousness of investors over healthcare and pharma post COVID. Similarly, the entire disruption that technology builds is giving way to a narrative that it stocks will do well is okay to the extent that the overall philosophy that I mentioned is there. But one look at the stocks also seem to suggest that they seem to be very well valued. I will not say overvalued or undervalued, but they are very well valued. So investors should exercise caution. There are certain mid-cap pharma and IT companies that we at least believe that are looking very frothy. The leaders of course will always continue to do well. So again, two things. Both these sectors intuitively look like good sectors to hold. The leaders in these two sectors should continue to do well, but the mid-cap stocks in these two sectors are looking a little frothy. But from our point of view, we are right now not making too much of a guessing game. As far as sectoral picks are concerned, we are advising investors to stick with a slightly more multi-cap diversified sort of an approach. So I have one more question on the six-year theory that you were just talking about, Srikanth. So I'll quickly take this question up since we just spoke about it. So Rithu is asking, with the six-year theory, what should the portfolio look like and what are the best practices to be followed during these six years to reach the compound return goal? So the golden rule is not to deviate. I mean, the six years, give it six years. Unfortunately, we all talk of six years and in six months' time we start debating whether we did the right thing or not. I think honestly, trust me, there is no shortcut to doing this. You have to go through this period of cycle. There will be areas such as global financial crisis of 2008. There will be areas such as COVID-19. They will come. They will go. But you stick on with it. There would be good periods where the six will get crunched to five, where the six will get expanded to seven. But by and large, if all of us are eternal optimists and we believe that human endurance is strong enough for us to bounce back and this is not an apocalyptic situation, we should not hold our, we should not lose our patience and continue. So the first, do's and don'ts, do not deviate. What do you think? Walk the talk. Second, I think don't be over-cute as far as sector teams' talks are concerned. If you general and the return that I gave an example was of simple nifty. So you don't really have to even go to nitpicking with stock, which manager beyond the point. If you like a good fund house, there are fund houses like HDFC, Kotak, ICIC who are amongst the top three, four, five fund houses and have been there doing businesses for a very long time. If you just pick a good fund house, diversified multi-cap strategy, I think you are good enough. I think there will be periods of time where this is your own advice. You can dabble a little bit into research stocks, into small-cap mid-cap areas, but I think if you just choose good quality mutual fund houses, good quality ETFs, stick to the larger diversified theory and stick to the six-year, seven-year, eight-year plan, I think there is nothing that can stop you from building a little nest egg for you as the time is, and I will again urge all leaders not to hold for the six-year point of view very strongly. The mathematical point is 72 divided by whatever return you get is the return, is the number of years that it takes for you to double your money. It's mathematics, so for example, the next three years, Indian markets give you 24%, then in three years, the money doubles because 72 divided by 24 is three. If Indian markets gives you only 7.2% return, then it will take you 10 years because it is 72 divided by 7.2, it's 10 years. Historically, in the last 10 years, markets have given close to 11-12%, so if I use that yardstick in your cycle for people to develop that over a period of time. Absolutely. Okay, so we'll go back to the discussion and keep our questions on hold for a while, but before I do that, I have a word for our Facebook viewers that you can ask your questions in the comments section. We will make sure that they are all answered at the end of the discussion. Okay, so moving on, Raul, let me come to you. You know, even though you rightly said that it is really a function of asset allocation and not really equity or debt as such, but you know, some, I mean, for, for, I mean, one fundamental is also that it's a function of your risk and there are investors who, you know, irrespective of what their investment horizon might be or, you know, they still prefer sticking to debt instruments or small savings schemes. So, so, you know, for risk-averse investors, debt options are also not looking too attractive because there have been massive cut in interest rates by the RBI. So, Raul, what should bond and fixed income investors do now? So, if you see in the current scenario, I think creating a debt investment strategy, especially what you said in a falling interest rate, I think it's not the biggest challenge in the social system. For example, now ISIS, the bank is giving up more than a year every 5% which is fairly, fairly limited. I think it's a complex situation because the investors choose between safety and return. So, if they settle for a safety of bank or quality, I think they lose out on returns and if they aim for higher returns to a corporate deposit or something else in NCD format, then they are little compromising on credit quality. I think one of the options is that the debt funds gives you an option of playing in the falling interest rate market, but I think that is something who understands that funds should dabble into it. As a strategy, if you look right now, we are looking at diversifying the whole debt portfolio into various parts and there are interesting options available there in that sense also. So, for example, you can have a combination of FD, then you can have triple A rated NCDs which are would be around 7 or 4%. You can look at an option like an RBI bank which just closed with an almost amount of info which happened a month back at 7.75, which was again a very attractive rate at looking at the quality of credit, what is debt? So, I think a composite of FD, RBI bond, a government tax saving bonds and then triple A rated and some you can have double A plus which is percievely high risk but reality is high quality credit. Then you can have a good combination of diversified portfolio and still make a good optimum return around 7.5 sorts. So, that is how we are suggesting to our clients or investors who are primarily looking at fixed income instruments and I want to then for them safety is the utmost important criteria. For them, we are telling them have this composite sort of portfolio and just don't put everything into bank FD. So, putting an RBI bond at 7.75 or put in an ICC bank FD for me is reasonably the same thing, correct, effectively. And then you end up making more money. Yeah, there might be some terms where you have a higher lock in on RBI bonds but effectively most of the FD users just keep FD and they keep rolling it over. And since you have a diversified portfolio, a certain part of portfolio can anyways be liquidated if you have some exceedances coming in. So, that is how we are suggesting and helping our clients and investors how to dabble with such a situation where their interest rates are falling. But I tell you, it's a big problem. It's a big problem for more of senior citizens because they generally are dependent on cash flows from FDs or the things they deposit etc. To manage their money. Yeah, definitely. People have also reduced all this is impacting but effectively now you have to dabble between safety or returns and in this environment it's better to be safe right now. Yes, definitely. So, I also have an add on question here and also coming back to the whole point of what we were talking about assessing your financial risk. So, do you think that volatile markets as well as the coronavirus economy presents a good opportunity to reassess your overall financial risk because if seeing a downturn people are moving out of the market equity investments, it fundamentally means that you really can't take the volatility that comes with equity investments. So, do you think it's a good opportunity to reassess your financial risk? Yeah, 100%. So, for example, if you see your assessment of financial risk, other risk you can take are two parameters I spoke earlier also. One is willingness to take risk and the other is ability to take risk. Ability is generally derived from your job security, your current net worth, whether you have dependent parents, children dependent on you, how the family structure is. And the other is the willingness. Willingness is more of your perception, your attitude, how you're bringing has been, are you have been conservative as an individual and all of your risk assessment tools, etc. are there. But the real, the way you react comes into the real situation. Anyone, any single individual does not like loss in his, whether it's temporary or not. And so he does generally don't like losses, correct, in the portfolio. I think the situation like this in current pandemic, it gives you a good heads up of understanding that what type of risk profile you really belong to. Because if you see in the whole movement of market from March to now, it went to 7500, now it's back to in the summer 200, 40% uprise. Effectively, there are a lot of people who squared up because of risk and now also are having a FOMO, fear of missing out in their thing. But the fact is that you have to have a clear understanding that what is the risk profile assessment, whether you can take that losses in the volatile times or not, because that is very, very important. And that is a good thing to learn about your future investing. That is one. I think the ability to take risk also changing, which I spoke earlier, if your job is under threat, you're having a salary cut. I'm sure the network, if it's an equity, it was also got significantly downgraded in terms of portfolio size. So all these two have to be calibrated, measured, and then reassess yourself about whether how much of your asset allocation should be an equity or debt. And then again, you go back to asset allocation communication conversation, and then you can readjust the portfolio. So that you're able to achieve your financial goals in long term. Yes, of course. So we have about 10 minutes left. So we'll move on to questions from our attendees. So I would request our team to please give Mike to Ashlish. He has a very interesting question. Hello, Ashlish. Ashlish, please unmute your mic. Okay, so there's some problems. So I'll ask on behalf of Ashlish, his question is, what would you suggest during this crisis, SIP or lump sum? So who would like to take this question? Since Srikanth has given the 72 formula, I think you should answer. I think SIP is a much safer bet. It will be always a safer bet, not only in this environment, but in any environment, because the question is from a market timing point of view, SIP will always win hand over fist. Lump sum you do when you have been faced with an inordinate amount of liquidity and you are okay investing it over long periods of time. But 99 out of 100 times, it's always best to stagger it, especially in an environment like this, when the markets from A went down to B and then back to A. Situations like these to navigate these tough waters, it's always a better idea to stick to SIPs. So there's a question from a, this person looks like a stock trader. So he's asking, would you say volatile markets are the best avenues for trading and why should it be always long term investing when it comes to stock trading? I mentioned that there is absolutely no right or wrong. You should know your temperament and there are investors. I mean, it's not that people don't make living out of trading. It's a very big profession, but you should know the nuances of trading. My advice is to all other listeners who are looking at investing as a philosophy for either creating wealth or preserving wealth. Trading comes with different sets of nuances. You need to have the ability to buy, sell, have the temperament to take losses, have the ability to read charts. So as long as you are able to do that and you enjoy doing that great volatility again cuts both ways. Volatility does not just mean down, volatility can mean both up and down. So volatility can be a friend as long as you know how to navigate through volatility, but overall volatility is, I mean, I would always do well without a volatile situation, something which is slightly more scientific and predictable, even for a trading sort of an approach works very well. So it's not that whether volatility is good or bad. It is just that whether we have what it takes to navigate volatility, we have what it takes to navigate the nuances of short term investing and trading. So I'll clarify. There is nothing called right or wrong. Investors looking at creating capital, preserving capital are better off, better off approaching it through the fundamental ways of investing. Investors who like the area of finance, who like, who have the ability and time and bandwidth and wherewithal to understand charts and have the risk temperament to take positions on both sides can obviously trade and that's a big community of investors who also make a lot of money doing that. All right. So next question is from Priya Dashne. She's asking, my father is retiring in March 2022. His portfolio fell significantly in the recent market crash. Should he exit or wait for it to recover? Rahul, why don't you answer that? Sorry, can you just repeat the question? So she's saying that my father is retiring in March 2022. His portfolio fell significantly in the recent market crash. Should he exit or should he wait for it to recover? So I think if it would have fallen in the recent crash, I'm sure it would have come back also because market has also improved significantly in the last couple of months. That is one. I want to come back to the, again, the same point is that at his father's age, I think the asset allocation formula would be 100 minus your age. It could be an equity portfolio. And if your equity portfolio is more than that, it could be converted into debt. And for a person who is retiring, our advice is that a large part of the portfolio should be into debt. If you have good recurring cash flows on monthly basis, that ability to meet is expensive, D2D nature is really possible. So in that sense, if the asset allocation percentage of equity is very high, it should be reduced and it should be largely debt. That is how it should be considered. I think right now when the market is again come back to 11,300 levels, it's a good opportunity to get out of equity and convert into debt. But it will be a good, in that sense, a good opportunity to get into the right asset allocation. So a sort of an add-on question here we have from another viewer. So once she's asking, this is interesting, is there a chance of markets revisiting the March 2020 lows? I think it's very difficult to predict what will happen in the market. But seeing the current parameters, how the FIF lows, how the results are coming in, et cetera, the market does not seem to go back to 7,500. That is what our view is. But market has been very unpredictable. It has always been unpredictable. It will always create fear in you. So that is surely a guess to take. Ishegan, anything you would like to add here? If you would like to address his concerns about whether the markets will go down to its March 2020 lows again? If I could answer that with certainty, I would be in a different trade of business. But yes, I think it's a fair question because since you very recently saw 7,600 levels, the mind always thinks that what can trigger that. I think I would tend to agree with Rahul. I think while you don't rule out anything in the markets at all, because you don't know what the next cannonball to hit you will be. But it looks unlikely. A couple of reasons. I think the world has digested the issue of COVID. If you look at two markets, both US and Japan. US contracted about 99.5%. Japan contracted about 7.5%. These are big numbers for economies of the size of US and Japan. Despite that, markets did not fall. Japan, in fact, after giving the data of GDP growth of minus 7.5%, only fell down by 0.8%. Similarly, US, the day it was down by 10% GDP was marginally down. So I think the bad news is somewhere being factored in. All the central banks across the globe continue to keep the tap open as far as liquidity is concerned. And I think even in India, with investors on the SIP route and also on the FBI money coming in, I would put the probability very low of market revisiting that kind of a situation. But I won't rule out a correction, but I will not give a very high probability of a correction of that magnitude. Right. Okay, so I'll take one last question. Rahul, maybe you can answer this. Our reader is asking, sorry, our viewer is asking, how do you define the word long term and what are the indicators we have to look over when we're saying long term investing? So long term journey in equity market is three years and above and she can't can also add to this. Three years and above is what we look at long term. I think the parameters of long term which we want to look is what she also spoke about that you have to maintain that discipline of continuing this investment. For example, if the SIP is there and the formula of if you think it's grow by 12% and will go in six years, then you have to continue with that discipline. That's an important parameter of long term and and and from equity standpoint of you, I think three or plus something which you should look at long term. All right. Okay, thank you very much Rahul and Srikanth for joining us today for this really engaging conversation on investments and you know what investors can do right now during these turbulent times. So, well, we hope to have you again for another interesting conversation and thank you viewers for joining us today and well have a good day ahead. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.