 That's from the Netflix series stranger things and that's L of course a young girl who was raised from birth in an MK Ultralab in order to develop her Psycho-kinetic powers where she can move things across room Crush Coke cans while they have electrodes attached to her brain to measure what's going on and You know of course a lot of that stuff is true and we have today with us I Guess our own L a woman who has been laboratory tested To do pk stuff Shirley is such an interesting person such a great person Known her for a long time through the show made a lot of great contributions to the to the skeptical forum over the years And it was really cool to talk to her about all her experiences including multiple near-death Experiences, but in particular this laboratory work Doing pk Here's a couple clips In terms of how skillfully I could do the pk was completely dependent on practice So the more I did it the faster I could get the pinwheel to work and and the more control I had over the pinwheel, but whether or not that pinwheel would move had almost everything to do with my with my state of mind that day and It actually to get the experiment to work. I had to be in a good mood. It wasn't a negative mood Whereas if I was a negative mood, I would try and get that pinwheel to move and something across the room would move instead You know, I think these are all very personal journeys and maybe Maybe the scientists doesn't need to see See the pk and maybe some do and I think you see it if you need to see it I think it's just There's a lot more to us than we realize Welcome to skeptica where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers and their critics I'm your host Alex to Keras and today we welcome Shirley black to skeptico Shirley has a fascinating story. She's had multiple near-death experiences to when she was quite young and Perhaps because of the after-effects of those experiences or Perhaps just because It's the way her life was meant to be she then experienced kind of a series of strange things throughout her life Including pre-cognitive dreams poltergeist encounters and One thing that we are going to explore pretty extensively on this interview Shirley experienced and developed the ability to kind of enter into this world of Psychokinesis pk the look mom no hands. I can move stuff with just my mind kind of thing and There's been there's always been an interest in this there's been a renewed interest in this I think especially like the Netflix series stranger things kind of tune people into that and there's also been numerous YouTube videos you can find Of course, the problem with all that is PK is about the easiest dang thing to fake in a video then you could imagine right? I mean you can kind of put anything down there and say look I'm moving it with my mind and you can make a fake video, but the cool thing about Shirley is She is someone who's actually Allowed herself to be studied in some very very respectable top top parapsychology labs and She's come back from those experiences saying yeah, they verified that this is real and I'm Experiencing this because we don't really know how I Hesitate with all the words here. I hesitate to say I'm making this happen or anything because we just that's Part of what we need to kind of pull apart Shirley is also a she's such a super cool Friend of this show has been with me on this journey for a long time Was really active in the form for a while then not so much which is totally cool. I totally Think that's great people come people go. It's just kind of like a Moving party and that's the way it's supposed to be but it's really cool to connect with you here on This interview and it's great having you here. Thank you. Oh Thanks for asking So I kind of sketched some stuff out here, but tell us more about About your your whole any part of that that you want to fill in from the NDE to the pk to the poltergeist Anything in between? Oh jeez. I mean there's a lot there, you know I I think for anyone who wants to see the NDE stuff There's a video that that Ion's published that kind of has the three NDE's There because it takes a long time to go through them all You know one thing I find interesting Matt want to talk about is an NDE as a very young child I think you're like two years old or something. I mean How does that that's different than what we normally hear? How does that what is that experience like number one? Is it different when you're a young child like that in terms of what you experience in the in that extended realm and then How does that affect you? You know, what's your mission like differently when you come back? I Think when when you're that young first off you don't have anything To tell you that this is weird like, you know, like it's just it's just okay This happened it, you know, there's there's nothing in your experience that tells you that maybe I should hide this or Maybe there's something wrong with this. It's just kind of part of who you are and When you talk about weird stuff when you're little everyone thinks it's cute You know, it's just isn't she cute little girl and she's very you know She has this great imagination And and and it's wonderful and when you're really little Everybody thinks it's great And and I think that experience for me, you know, you know when I went through it. I Think the thing that that kind of is different about the really young experience from when I was older is That I was much more aware that there was like little me like little two year old two and a half year old me And then there's this really bigger me that seemed to just know so much stuff that I didn't You know, like that had this much bigger perspective and somehow I was able to kind of live within having those two You know young me and whatever that other me was that seemed to know way more stuff and It you know, it didn't it didn't really seem to me like it wasn't supposed to be that way I was just like, yeah, that's just how things are That's really cool. That's a very interesting insight and then what about the the one when you were when you're older in your late 20s So is there is there like a continuity? Is there a connection as they're like, okay? We're our next chapter or is it like oops here. I am again accidentally kind of thing I Think well, you know, I had a really scary one when I was was 10 Like, you know, you're an absolute distressing NDE and I think it was almost like when I had the NDE when I was 29 It was almost like to make that one the bad one better. You know, it was like it was kind of to explain that Yeah, you had that bad one, but in some ways The bad one was kind of a course correction because like I had this really wonderful one when I was really young And I think that that one might have if I just kind of kept following the path it set me on I Might not have ever had a normal life And I think the bad one kind of brought me back more into this world somehow and And then I had a very normal life in my 20s I got married I had a job and you know did university and all that stuff And then at 29, I kind of got pushed more into the spiritual side of things again And and and I think it was that was the time for me to do that And then when does the other stuff kind of start factoring in and and I'm not sure I fully Understand how you understand The other stuff so, you know, I don't want to flavor it too much You know, so just tell us what you think Happens after that and in particular how it connects to the to the NDE if it does connect. I don't want to make any Well first off I will say I reserve the right to change my mind on any of this because I think Throughout my life. I'm just constantly reevaluating how I see it And I just even though when you're kind of in that NDE state and it seems like you just know everything You come back here and you don't You know, you maybe you did but you're back and You kind of got a sense of what it was like to know everything and that kind of have everything settled But you're here and you don't and you still have to kind of work it out And and you're constantly refiguring out how it goes So can we pause right there because I mean, I think like I don't I've never had an NDE You know, I could tell people on the show. I don't even know anyone personally in my family like My kids have never had Dean not father You know, I don't know anyone like that But in to a certain extent I love studying it like I have kind of from a distance because what you're saying I just want to make that point over and over again and so many people have had an NDE are so Insistent that they have some privileged Perspective on this thing and I'm like well, maybe you do maybe you don't but I'm just following the data I'm telling you that data does not support what you're saying. I just interviewed someone a couple days ago Lovely person Trisha Barker. She runs the NDE summit and she's interviewed all these NDE ears and she's Had an experience herself a very profound experience undoubtable experience in terms of she was flat-lined She was in the hospital and all that but one of the things we talked about is The kind of difference and me just stumbling into this inquiry to perpetuate doubt doubt is the most spiritual thing and the thing you know from NDE's is Exactly what you said that there is this sense of all-knowing and And the what then but that goes away when you come back here And when you come back here We're all on the level playing ground of figuring this stuff out and constantly making mistakes and constantly course correcting And if you think otherwise then go sign yourself up for the latest call the latest guru Who will give you that certainty that you want because otherwise it does kind of peeve me when I hear NDE ears kind of taking this This position of authority that just is not consistent with the logic of what they're saying so And I think that also fix factors into and I want to turn the mic back over to you, but I have a sense That you have been so involved in the parapsychology community and the scientific community And in oh there's because there's this other thing going on. I think where there's this strange kind of relationship between them There's this kind of relationship between that research community and experiencers where they the in some respects, they don't give experiencers they're due because experiencers are the ones who've really been there and doing it But there is also this nice interchange when your experiencer says, you know what, I really want to participate with you and kind of understanding it from this Rational scientific if you will kind of way and that's something that you sought out. So Again, I kind of totally stole the mic there. So I'm going to give it back to you any of that stuff negative part of it that that People kind of hold the NDE ears up on these pedestals and they're encouraged to Have a particular narrative and go along with that narrative and if you do it can be a Great way to sell books You know and you get attention just get that positive nut and just get positive attention, you know Yeah, and you know like And if you say like you don't see a lot of near-death experiencers talking about negative near-death experiences at conferences And when I've been to ions conferences, nobody shows up for those lectures I mean, that's not that's not what they're there for and so there's almost kind of Kind of this double standard that if you have the right kind of experiences You'll get a lot of attention a lot of feedback and people will pay attention to you and they'll kind of Bolster everything you say like it's just the most wonderful thing. But if you Talk about any of the bad parts even just about some people have wonderful NDE's and then Come back from it and their marriages fall apart because they're different people and Like you don't Although that's mentioned in the literature People don't really talk about that much You know, and I can think of a number of very famous NDEers whose marriages have have You know, whose marriages ended right after their NDE's Evan Alexander or Evan Alexander Yeah, nobody likes to look at that because he's going on and done all this great thing with his wife and His his second wife. I don't have any I don't any problem with that But you know the other part of that because some people do, you know PMH outwater deserves a lot of credit because she is like one of the first ones say After effects integration problems, they're all here and then the people are really tuned into kind of Spiritually transformative experiences say wow, that's been reported for the longest time Somebody has a Kundalini experience in India Comes out of the blue the same thing they have this kind of crazy period they go to they ruin all these relationships and then they can do it You know the so that's one aspect of it. I'm glad you're bringing it up You know came up with my in my interview with trisha that that I guess you sparked it with the other thing You said about just your life kind of going on and Not being perfect. Oh my god Trisha Barker comes back from her near-death experience And she's marching on and doing all these wonderful things that she's been told to do and a healer and a teacher She goes to south korea and is is raped. You know and is traumatized extremely traumatized. So Where does that fit in? You know, we don't talk about that like your life is somehow You're going to come back from your nde and your life is somehow going to be plotted out to be quote-unquote perfect again That's can be someone's that can be someone's opinion My reading of the data is not consistent with that view Oh, no, I mean my life right out I would say with my third nde the car accident Right before it. I would have said my life was perfect Right before that car accident. I had a job. I loved I mean I was working as a musician um And I was working as a landscape painter and it was a really Wonderful I had a great marriage I was so happy You have no idea. It was just a wonderful life. And then I had that accident And then my husband Didn't recognize me. I tried so hard to pretend That I was who I was before and I couldn't do it like I I really worked at it and I just couldn't do it and so yeah, I went You know through well, I was lucky that it ended with divorce because it almost ended with death And You know, it it was a really traumatic Experience afterwards and yet it it was so weird because part of me was just So happy for that nde. I mean it it was an amazing wonderful Thing But the cost of it was pretty high Uh, you know, I think that was What why do you think that was I mean tell us some of the some of the reasons that that Came about why it was especially hard to To integrate all that back into your life well you know it well mostly it was it was I was trying really hard to be who I was before the nde and I couldn't I mean I couldn't done a lot of levels I didn't look the same. I mean I still don't look the same, but I mean I'm older now. So that's forgivable But you know, I my face was all cut up in the car accident. I had to learn how to walk again I mean I had been an athletic woman. I mean I was in the military. I you know, I played the military bands And so, you know, I'd go out and train you and do those Annoying five mile runs that I hated but I did them You know and then suddenly I couldn't walk And I was a very attractive woman. I mean as a professional musician. I used to do a lot of PR work in the military because um, you know, I was young and cute and pretty and suddenly my face was totally ripped up by glass and Like you know, you know, you never get that back. I certainly certainly wasn't going to be on recruitment posters after that uh and so You know, like I was very very different and then things that I had always found Were enough like I always knew I was an artist and musician like I just that's who I was And suddenly I was interested in math Like really interested like I was getting excited about algorithms, you know, which is like completely sick who does that And you know And and I was kind of talking to you know, I still when I was still married to my first husband I was kind of talking about well I kind of would like to go back to university and study science and I mean The look on his face. It was like you're not you You are absolutely not you and He has to deal with the physical part He has to deal with the lifestyle change in terms of being active and this and that Yeah, and that physical part. I mean we all want to pretend like we can just kind of you know, push that aside or be like that But it's so integrated into Into marriage and relationships. Oh my gosh. Yeah culture culture because it's not only that it's like When I walk down the street next to you Shirley, you know, I used to get this feedback from Everyone else and now I get different feedback and I can't you know, I mean It should shouldn't be that way, but it is, you know Yep Yeah, no Yeah, so, you know, so it was a big deal and And he kept telling everybody that I wasn't me and everybody was telling him You are so lucky. Your wife was like he was at it was such a bad accident. He was coming to identify the body You know and so Like because the rcmp couldn't tell him if if I was going to be alive when he got to the hospital So all these people are telling him you're so lucky. She's still here. She survived it You know, isn't that great and in the meantime, he's thinking I don't know what that is, but she killed my wife You know I mean that's That's how bad it was so Yeah, it was kind of like part of me really wanted to explore these new interests like in math and science And it wasn't that I could you know, I could still play music I mean, I was very very fortunate because there was a lot of things I couldn't do when I came back and yet I still could play music like I had broken fingers and I I was still going to band practice. They were Propping, you know the drums up on on a chair for me So I because I couldn't you know wear a Highland pipe band drum when I was on crutches and I was still playing. I mean I healed so quickly like the accident was in January and And I think the cast came off a few months later, but that summer I was on parade Like in marching in parades playing Um Like it was it was a Almost a freakish recovery how quickly I came back What were the main what were the main um, you know lessons if you will Course changes mission changes advice From that third in the e that kind of propelled you forward or were there were there those kind of things I was you know, I think I was much more interested In being like a whole person Like you know, like the art was good, but it wasn't enough. It wasn't everything I just wanted to know so much stuff like You know, and that was kind of just pre internet internet was just kind of coming in but we were in isolated community We didn't even have cable tv, you know, so so internet wasn't something I had access to at that point, but But it was just I wanted to know everything I wanted to know about math. I wanted to know about science I just wanted to know stuff um I mean, you know, there's the light and love stuff that you know everyone talks about the light and love But there was also I was just so interested in knowledge like it was It it was like I was just craving it To know about everything around me and how it all worked Well, that's cool. I mean, I love that you say that, you know, because yeah, we all want to go to what's the big spiritual message And you're saying you experience that experientially, but what it really pushed you towards is kind of This knowledge thing. Do you think that factored into the pk stuff? I think the pk stuff had more to do with just Trying to hide things and I think it was how I think it was how a lot of my emotions were coming out Because I was suppressing everything because I was you know, I didn't want my parents to think I wasn't their kid anymore I you know, I didn't want my friends to think I wasn't me and you know, my my marriage Ended so badly And that was actually the first time that the pk really started erupting was You know When things were really going south That was a little bit about that I mean, we can't let that one go. Sorry Yeah, um I don't like to say too much about my my first husband passed away and And I think a lot of the issues that he was suffering with Um, you know, he had I'm sure he had PTSD from his time in the military He had some really horrid, horrid experiences Plus, I've just recently found out that they were giving them drugs when he was overseas I believe it was from malaria, but apparently it also causes psychotic episodes that persist throughout later years in your life um So there was stuff going on with him that This you know, he had a bad childhood upbringing. He went to the military to get away from a bad family at which a lot of people do um and With everything going on I think he felt that he couldn't protect his wife and somehow I took away his wife and he he Came close to killing me one night and What happened was When he had his hands on me everything started coming live in our house like the kitchen doors started opening and closing The tv and radio started blaring lights were flickering on and off and I mean it was It was just everything came alive and he just ran out of the house and never came back And I crawled under the kitchen table and waited for it to to calm down with the cat You know, um And that was like, you know the first week came it was just And it probably saved my life And uh, you know, I so as you process that now and as you think about it, um You know, and that's really kind of one of the interesting things, you know, putting you into the microscope now so we can pull Pull apart your most The most traumatic moment of your life. Let's analyze it and talk about it but You know, it is It is something to think about and I'm sure you have, you know, this extended realm pk poltergeist spirit guide, I mean Angels demons, I mean What do you think happens when we Encounter that extended realm and then, you know, if we're gonna pull out this little slice, we're gonna call pk. How does that fit into it? You know, it's hard to say. You know, I I'm not quite sure how to approach that because Because I think that, you know pk And I and I you know, like I knew bill roll like William roll who sort of coined the phrase or spk I knew bill and You know, he tied everything to emotion and I know the very first time I talked to him on the phone and he wanted to see if I was the real deal And he asked me a question. I can't I can't exactly remember what it was I just know he asked me something that Absolutely horrified me and seemed like the most Insensitive and awful thing to ask somebody and as soon as he did that the phone line started screeching Like, you know over the phone line, there was this awful static and and it's horrible It sounded like an air raid siren or something going off And then he just changed the tactic and it's like Okay, okay. Well, don't talk about something else now. And I was like, wait, wait, wait You can't just ask me something like that and then change the subject and I was like, no, no, no It's fine. It's fine. Would you like to come to to Sudbury and do some research at first and just And so I mean clearly he had asked me something like that To see if it would set me off. I mean, it wasn't then he really expected me to answer that question And apparently like he told me later that Tina Reich who he'd worked with She used to have that effect if he upset her on the phone that they would get he said it was like the same noise Well, this is this is back to like the stranger things kind of thing, you know, the Netflix stranger things show and you know those things are based on I don't want to say based on They're stretching reality. They're stressing stretching truth But we've heard these stories repeated and you know, that's why I guess I brought up the poltergeist thing because a lot of I'm sure you're aware of this a lot of poltergeist researchers Have connected it had said there's a strong correlation between Girls in the ages of kind of 10 to 13 who are Kind of in a heightened sense of emotional kind of Processing and the appearance And interaction with poltergeist and they're not saying it's Imagination going wild, but they seem to be suggesting is that there's a a frequency of energy there that is Attractive to or an entry point for Some things that exist in these extended realms. So, I mean even if that doesn't connect with you because you weren't A young girl in that way. I think there might be some connection between that kind kind of heightened and and changed ego state and that Frequency connection thing if you thought about that at all. I mean, I kind of think your story suggests that you have But have you gotten into it any further? Oh, yeah, no, and I mean, I had poltergeist activity for a short time when I was young at around that age when you get You know evil You know, so yeah, and and certainly You know, it came up when when I was going through my divorce my first husband and it came up when I was in graduate school working on my doctorate and Uh, which I ended up walking away from because it just wasn't worth worth it in the end, but um Much I didn't technically walk away technically. I'm still a PhD candidate. Good standing. I just don't have a thesis supervisor um, but You know when I was having some Really stressful issues at university. That's when it was starting to happen again And it was happening in the laboratory and you know, um One one Nigerian student called me a witch You know, because every time I got upset for blowing up in the lab You know, somebody somebody said that they should send me to walk by this one Chemistry professors lab that nobody liked to see if I could do bad things to his Walking by You know, so yeah, it's It's absolutely connected to emotions. Um Not always negative emotions. I mean I did actually do some Experiments myself where where I was um I I basically set up a little pinwheel and I would practice getting it to move inside a jar every day and before I did it I would do Panace which I think is positive and negative effect Um something or other it's a it's a standard psychological test that you can kind of fill it out and then you do some kind of Calculations with it afterwards and it'll tell you what kind of mood you were in and it it's it's standard and Jim carpenter who He wrote first site that used to be the you know president of the parapsychological association He was the one that recommended it to me when I was first kind of thinking I'd like to set up some experiments Just to see how my emotions are affecting this stuff And what I found from doing my own experiments next to Jim presented the work we co-authored a paper and and he presented it at the parapsychological association conference was um That emotions did factor into whether or not that That the you know the pk would occur although It actually in terms of how skillfully I could do the pk was completely dependent on practice So the more I did it the faster I could get the pinwheel to work and and the more control I had over the pinwheel but whether or not that pinwheel would move had almost everything to do with my with my state of mind that day and it actually To get the experiment to work. I had to be in a good mood. It wasn't a negative mood Whereas if I was in a negative mood, I would try and get that pinwheel to move and something across the room would move instead So it was kind of interesting So sharely tell us a little bit about the the history of this Laboratory work that you did because you just kind of touched it But kind of frame it up and then some of the other labs that you're invented invited to some of the work that was going on there I guess I got to come back to the stranger things, you know I mean there's some weird connections with the mk ultra stuff either in its kind of direct form or in a lot of that mk ultra stuff was Hidden and disguised as oh, you know, it's just the researchers interested in this and yet they had some connections because this is obviously if if the governments of The free world like the united states and canada if they weren't interested in this They'd be asleep at the wheel in a way that we wouldn't like The fact that they were interested in it is understandable The fact that they were trying to weaponize it and didn't care about destroying people's lives in the process is something We may not be totally comfortable with but this is in play in a way that anyone who doesn't understand This is definitely in play. It's just kind of not paying attention so fill us in on How how you got involved with research and to what extent where it went where you think it might have gone that you didn't even see Oh lord There's a lot there. I mean I think You know originally when I was I was actually, you know, when I was first very active in the skeptical forum Uh, it was because you were one of the few podcasters who were interviewing people like dean ridon and And I was I was in university at the time and I was trying to find any kind of literature like scientific literature on this stuff and I wasn't finding it like, you know, like you really have to know Where look like I would have not thought to look at engineering journals like, you know a triple e Which is where a lot of the remote, you know, there's remote viewing stuff in nature and and and so atriple It's I triply I think Um, yeah, I triply. Yeah, it's I triply. Sorry. And, you know, which You know having studied earth sciences and geology like I use that journal all the time I wouldn't have known to look there for information on remote viewing Um And so I I was like searching the internet and trying just to find whatever was available I mean, I was going into the university and basically I used to Give myself every friday afternoon. I was going in in the campus university Searching for information on this stuff and and I wasn't having a lot of luck until I found your podcast And then dean raiden once I found his stuff And there was actually a copy of conscious mind in the library Which I wouldn't have known I found books by charlie tart in the library again wouldn't have known That that was Where I should have been looking and and once I started making inroads into that and reading about everything Then I found out about the you know, the percicle of logical association, which I joined as a student member And that's where I got connected to bill roll and so You know, I had a long Well, it seemed like a long correspondence. I mean, it really wasn't in the you know, he didn't he didn't live many years after I first Worked with him unfortunately Um But you know, he he had invited me out to loretta university, which Isn't actually that far from where I live. So It's like a five-hour bus ride If the bus goes into every small town along the way But but what was his relationship with uh, persinger was he were they Colleagues or did they know each other? They were such good friends. Um, I mean they didn't they You know persinger was at loretta and bill was I think was it university of west georgia, I think Um, but they had written a lot of works together and seeing them together like They I mean they were such opposite people persinger's very Has university professor. I probably would have called him like a hard ass, you know You know, I mean he was he was very much into the data and and Didn't have a lot of time for small talk whereas bill was a people person. I mean You know, you could see Why they kind of worked well together because bill looked after all the nice it is niceties of life And persinger got the data but when they were together they joked and and They coked fun at each other and and it was just a really nice relationship between the two of them and it's funny because Those were actually persinger in particular a lot of per cycle Parapsychologist told me oh stay away from him like he's a bad guy and You know and and he's often the one that's everyone says oh well, you know, he has a history with With the dark side of the government and yet when all these people telling me this All came from the government all worked for the cia in various ways. Like, you know, like like nobody's innocent in this group And I and I think a lot of those people No, that's that's larry's. I think that's so true And the other reality of it is a lot of these people don't know, you know, you don't know where your funding Came from necessarily and in particular in these fields. The funding is so tiny You know, I mean like you might bother to look in if you're getting Gazillions of dollars or even millions of dollars But when you're just getting a little bit to get you further along You're just like a take it and move on and it isn't clear You know where it's coming from I think in a lot of cases. Well in person you're funded most of his own work Like he is all just part of a process. It's like I get a little bit here or there It's like, yeah, it's like I still have to go out and get all of it my get a lot of it myself, right Well, he I think there was one Because I I mean he he was pretty open with me when I asked because I asked You know where the funding and things came from and Most you know, he he had done some project for the u.s. Navy. It was a very small thing. He he pointed out what that was But the overwhelming majority of the work done at Laurentian University he funded out of pocket So You know, that's I mean, I guess some people Well, actually a lot of people paid their own way to go there to see his lab and be tested in his lab Yeah, um You know, I remind people remind people so we don't get too far into inside baseball So break down the the work that you did in these different labs or just what you knew about these labs And what they were doing and how it related to your experience because this does kind of go back to what I was saying before she early, I mean You know, we can't really wrap our head around the fact that like Just to say your experience your you are an experiencer Is not enough. It's kind of this strange situation Because when you're talking to these researchers, you know so much freaking more than they do that. It's like insane And yet you have to kind of take this role of yes What do you want me to do now? You know, what do you mean? So it is kind of the strange situation So if you could be a little more bold in terms of what do you think these guys and they're all guys What do you think they were doing? What do you think they were doing right? What do you think they were doing? Not so right Where do you think all that stuff is has gone? You know since you were I guess you still are kind of keeping your fingers on it But where do you think all that stuff is going and all that? Wow. Okay. That's a big question. Um, I would say Persinger's lab They hooked me up to an eegee and they were actually trying to prove Or sorry, you don't prove things in science. That's like a math and alcohol thing. Sorry But they were trying to provide evidence For a theory that bill roll had had Part of which was that he he thought that people who were likely to have Psycho-kinetic Experiences would likely be people who are very environmentally sensitive to electromagnetic frequencies So one of the experiments they did was they put me into Like a Faraday cage. So a closed-up room. It looks like a bank vault It's like a bank vault with shag carpeting on the floor and and and chairs from, you know, your grandma's basement But personally personally by the way is famous for his Faraday cage. I mean, there's like a That's his thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, so you're in in the in the Faraday cage and They had this device in there that once you're in the Faraday cage, you're not affected by emf from outside sources What a Faraday cage does so but once you're in there, they turn on this device that the emits A specific amount of emf, sorry, my electromagnetic Energy and they see what it does to you And the first time I did this experiment, they didn't tell me what to expect and and All they did all they said was yeah a lot of students we do this on students all the time most of them fall asleep in here So I'm like, okay fine. We'll do this. So I'm sitting in there and All of a sudden I was not feeling well and I was like You know, I need this needs to stop and apparently Um, I was the most sensitive student they ever had to do this experiment and I had to throw up So it wasn't wasn't that fun for me like that was they weren't expecting me to have quite such a violent reaction to it and then the next time because I I went back about a year later, I think and Did this again and they had rejigged it to be much more sensitive So they said, okay, we're not going to blast you with this frequency We're just going to approach it and just let us know and you don't feel good and so what I found was One of the things that they found with me is that I see lights even in a dark room and I always have and so I was telling them what color the lights were turning in this completely dark room At different times and they said it was absolutely When they changed the frequency that I had the colors match the frequency they were turning it to And which they weren't expecting to find that that I'm so tuned into the subtle changes in the electromagnetics that I can tell them what what color it is Um And even there when they were really careful, I still ended up throwing up afterwards They they know exactly the frequency that sets it off and they say that that's the frequency that sets off the pk2 so what what is Your interpretation Of that result and what was their interpretation of that result? um their interpretation Well, you can read I mean, there's written up in a paper. So it don't don't take my word for it people can go find the paper it's I think role and role at al 2012 um journal of Neurocase, I think yeah, Neurocase and but their their interpretation was that yes people who Have unusual experiences are sensitive to particular um frequencies and and and I I would kind of agree with them because I sure got sick um and I think what I liked about that was the fact that The colors of lights I were seeing It really it was kind of cool to find out that it actually corresponds to something that somebody can measure outside of me That it's not just my imagination Like I think that was the biggest takeaway from going to pershinger's lab because I went there thinking that they were going to prove There was nothing to this Like that was at that time in my life. I wanted to cure for what was going on with me I was studying science and university and I wanted to cure and I was going to get fixed And they were just going to tell me that I was just nuts and that that was Going to be the end of it and I would go back and be a good scientist and not ever look at the stuff ever again And of course, that's not what happened Really that was So I got a I got a poke here a little bit I mean I can understand that at one level you wanted that But at another level you were an experiencer of this larger reality So you had to know that that wasn't really You know in play if you will Yeah, but you know, I was pretty stubborn about it. I was gonna fix it I was being so stubborn and of course that was making the pk worse Like, you know, it was making the poltergeist stuff worse because I was getting so stubborn that I was gonna fix this and cure this and I wasn't and And that was that and it didn't happen. It just they just kept showing Oh, oh, are we still connected? Okay, sorry. We just had a little we just had a little glitch there, but Stop it stop it. Okay, that's enough of that was game But don't get me emotional You know what I find kind of interesting about that is you're being so Real about it and so honest about it And it mirrors in a way you know Persinger is known for being this materialist He's encountering all this stuff And well, it's I depends on how you read him, you know, but I mean he's essentially jamming it back into, you know, well, let's just Find a different frequency then or let's just you know, like Explain all this away and well, I'm gonna publish it night. You're fully, you know, kind of thing and it's like I mean, I've that's been my kind of thing for on this show Very I was very very very slow to come to this realization, but once I did it. I see the kind of tragic comedy of it all is that all these guys at a higher level Understand the broader reality and understand that this isn't the really the game to train Jam it back into materialism and yet they let this stuff go on with just like You know, I can only imagine this is my imagination is whoever is At that higher level is reading Persinger's work and going great. Okay, you know, how can we weaponize it? How can we use it? What does that mean? And then they're letting it just go on. We'll let them keep talking about it. Like it's just all You know materialistic Biological robot in this universe kind of world out there, you know But it's interesting that you kind of knew and you still didn't want to know because it's it's Hard to know who the hell really wants to hold that reality. I mean, that's just kind of tough Yeah, because it's just a lot easier not to go there um, and I mean you know, my current husband is a scientist and I tried to hide it from him for a long time like, you know, it That the one really good thing about going to push into your lab Is that, you know, Persinger gave me all these data sheets to bring home And then I could just because I didn't even I don't think I even really told my husband exactly what I was going to Laurentian for he just figured it was a geology thing because you know, I was in grad school and Going to another university that happens to be where, you know, big mining town. So um You know geologists heaven over there. So of course I'm going there like big deal and That really wasn't what I was going there for at all and I came home with these data sheets Um showing, you know, the results from EEG's We we did some photo multiplier to experiments. I mean, you know various things that we did and I showed him the results and apparently how my brain is kind of weird Which is another thing they found and um That was the first Kind of conversations I had with my husband over it. I mean, he always knew I was weird but he always thought that was kind of a cute cute thing anyway, but I never really told him that I had a near-death experience. I mean, I never Most near-death experiences don't tell their spouses. They just don't It's easier to tell a complete stranger because if the complete stranger rejects you for sit talking about it That's not a big deal You know, but if your family rejects you that's a big deal um, you know, so that's why You'll go to an ions Um conference and everybody you'll be talking to each other and every one of them will say, yeah, I don't tell my family They don't know anything about this You know, I told them one time and I learned you don't you just go there Yeah, you know, uh before time kind of slips away from us too far. I know people are going to be super interested in The nuts and bolts of the pk stuff um The little wheel thing that you do and other people do Uh, what are the limits of pk? Do you suppose? um How do you go about developing that was that something you should do or should not do all the kind of basic pk fascination questions You know, it's funny. I I find That seeing someone else do pk seems to be contagious Like when I went to the ryan research Center and I was doing, you know spinning the wheels and like Other people were doing it there too Describe describe the setup describe the setup for people the best that you can the What what the setup for the lab test is? um, well, there's a lot of different lab tests actually, um Because at the ryan they've got the bio a bioenergy lab, which they did similar experiments that laurence did it in You know with a photo multiplier tube. So those experiments are pretty good and I You know anyone can can try those where you basically you sit in the dark room and you try and produce light And and then they see if there's spikes if you're flowing in the dark or not Which apparently I glow in the dark my husband likes to brag about that. It is why flows in the dark but but um other things was I just had a little jar and spun a pinwheel inside a closed jar and You know, it's not a perfect experiment and later on I started working with an ugly wheel after dean raiden had suggested it and Put it inside a closed container as well um But it was kind of interesting that that What I find is that when people see it often they can do it Although it'll kind of wear out like there's almost this beginner's left way. It'll work for the first little bit And then it's like they convince themselves. They can't do it anymore But there's been other cases where there was a fellow shon mac namara Who watched the video that I had done for ions and there I show a little clip of me playing with the pinwheel in the jar just to to give an idea of it And he decided that he could figure out how to do this and he started doing it And he actually teaches a course. He wrote a book like he he did all the things I should have done But you know, it's and another a number of people have Sent me emails saying that they thought it was silly and then they tried it After watching me do it and they can do it now But for the most part it seems like you do it for a while and then you kind of let it go and it doesn't work anymore And I don't know why that is but it seems to be how it is um But one of the things I thought was interesting was a couple of people who had learned how to do this um, and it gotten involved with this researcher I'm not going to name him because I don't I don't know that he wants to be public about his interest in this topic but uh He had done done some some work where he set up this machine that he said would be um a way to isolate the effects in kind of a vacuum tube And he did all these these things where he put the pinwheel in this closed thing and then he had Two of the people like Sean and another person in there and every time they got The pinwheel to move in this setup. He would blame it on Whatever like oh the the equipment was malfunctioning. It's too hot in here. It's too cold in here Like he had this laundry list And the two people who had actually gone to his lab to do these things were very discouraged because he basically made them feel like They were complete frauds Because his equipment was it was just equipment malfunctions. There was no true effects So when he contacted me and asked me to do it, I said, well, I'm not going to go to your lab We're going to do this over Skype because I don't want to go to your lab And and my I mean first of all I get air six. I hate to fly but I also figured like there's no point me going there for you to say it's an equipment malfunction And so I said, well, just do it over Skype. So set it up And we'll see what happens. So we did this and several times With me in canada and him in the states So we're not even in the same country. We're not even on this, you know, the same part of the Continents and the things started moving like crazy in a few of the videos And of course every time it's oh, it's equipment malfunction isn't that so it's like yeah So no matter how perfect some of the science has set up their experiments When it moves they still say that so I'm just as happy that I wasn't there for it to be an equipment malfunction Because quite honestly he could have also said it was fraud on my part Which is what I was kind of expecting Because I've had that happen to where they say well if it moves then it's fraud It's like well, if I'm not in the room, it's not me doing the fraud Yeah, in a way you kind of stumbled into kind of the perfect setup there. So Where are you going with this in the future and what are the personal kind of Implications for you or where would you like to go and you know, I'm glad that you did this interview I think you were understandably for a long time kind of Cautious and even going out there and talking about this stuff because it can get kind of creepy Where do you want to go with this? Well, I don't I mean I've been to quite a number of labs. I have A number of people I know who are working on Experiments that there's one fellow that actually may come up with a good experiment. It's just the technical Set up He won't mind if I say his name is Ron Brian. He's at Texas A&M and they're working on an experiment Where they're hoping someone can use pk to switch the direction of the spin on a magnesium ion um Which I know you're gonna say yeah, there's all kinds of evil evil uses for A thought switch, but he's hoping it'll be used in medical technologies But you're right. I'm you know any anything where there's a good use. There's bad use You know and and there are and there are some good experiments out there and I've been really fortunate that people have Have you know brought me to their labs and allowed me to participate in these things but generally what I found is that They'll only go so far And it's like when they get really good experiments they back off and and it's like oh We don't ever want to look at this again. And and it's almost a universal reaction And I don't know why that is it's like the experimenter That I just talked about where he was really enthusiastic that you know he was going to win the Nobel Prize by proving this stuff was real he actually used that he actually said that new belt prize and Yet when it came down to it You know just from talking to him. I knew that no that's not where we're going and that's why I'm not going to his lab I'm going to do this over skype And I'll get to see the little pinwheel move and yay, and he's going to say well, that's not Anything and that's okay. That's his deal. But at least at least I am clear to have any fraud charges Finally finally Shirley do you have any thoughts on How pk does fit into this larger kind of you know my pet phrase Extended consciousness realm You know what aspect of it are we looking at because to me when you talk about that it's like Bravo for the scientists on one hand on the other hand, it's just so impossibly corrupted and my optic and ridiculous that You know, they're just looking They're looking in the dark alley Because there's a street lamp over there and the keys are way over in the field over here kind of thing But that's okay. It's still Somebody looking which is more than we had before but any thoughts for how how pk does fit into the bigger picture You know, I think these are all very personal journeys and maybe Maybe the scientists doesn't need to see See the pk and maybe some do and I think you see it if you need to see it. Um, I think it's just There's a lot more to us than we realize And that's that's kind of what you got to keep looking for and the fact that there's these puzzles I What do they call it at cohen? you know Where where the whole point of the riddle is just to keep you Kind of keep you thinking keep keep you searching because Maybe the process is more important than then, you know, or the The journey is more important than the destination kind of thing. Um You know, I used to take it really personally the fact that so many of the scientists I've worked with Kind of they see a good result and then they back off and I don't hear from them again And I used to take it really personally now. I just kind of think well, that's where they need to be and You know, if somebody comes up with a good proposal and it's interesting and I'd like to work on it Yeah, you know, I I'd be up for that. But if not, that's okay too and You know, we'll see what happens when it happens. I mean, it's either that or I could maybe start a cult Two options say you got two good options there, whichever way it falls you're gonna say Well, I mean that's kind of that's kind of isn't that what you know in the years often do I you know, I I mean, I was kind of shocked by that part of that whole The whole community that yeah culture thing Yeah, yeah, yeah We'll tell you what it's been absolutely Terrific. I really Love this and appreciate the conversation we've had and I think we went to some places that you know, I don't hear people talking too much about So it's really Really cool to have you on and I love those I love where we came to at the end. I think that's You know, it immediately strikes me as how could it be any other way, you know, how could it be any other way than that? So awesome Just give it a month and you might change your mind yet Probably a couple more episodes Thanks again to Sherily Black for joining me today on skeptico. I guess the one question I'd have on this is what do you think are the Limits of pk And of course my standard what does the reality of pk say about the extended consciousness realm? Oh nice little easy questions Let me know your thoughts on that and uh, please stay with me lots of good stuff coming Down the pike I hope you stick around for it But until next time take care and bye for now