 Hi, Karina. Hi. Daily. Welcome. Thanks for coming joining us here at TimeMeetingTV. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So you work at the Vermont Natural Resources Council. I do. I'm a restoration ecologist there. And I work on water policy and I manage the dam removal program for VNRC. Yeah. So I was on your website and I was watching some videos. You have a lot of really interesting videos of a dam removal. Yeah. And then I had some questions. So thanks for coming in. Let's take a big look at Vermont landscape and how the water flows. Yes. Because I think that's the part that kind of is interesting. And I have here, I've got to put my glasses on, but I have here a map of Vermont and I'm wondering if you can share with us the, so this is the physical map of Vermont, sort of a big picture map. And I wonder if you just talk a little bit about the watersheds and how water flows through our state. Totally. So there are four major watersheds in Vermont. And you can sort of divide it in half and a large portion goes to Lake Champlain and then a large portion goes to Connecticut. But then in the upper north, there's a small portion that goes to Lake Memphra and then there's a small portion in the south that flows to the Hudson. Yes. Yes. Yes. Down there. So that's how it goes, but you have to think about the state and where you are in the state and then figure out which direction the water is flowing. But primarily my work focuses on the eastern portion, excuse me, the western portion of the state that flows to Lake Champlain. And then as far as the dam removal work goes and then Connecticut River Conservancy works on dam removals in the eastern portion of the state towards the Connecticut. I'm going to move over to the dam removal map because that gives us another picture, sort of a bigger view of Vermont and this has all the dots represent either dams that are operational, dams that have been removed, dams. Yes, sort of all the dams in Vermont. It's the Vermont Dam Inventory Layer. So it's a layer that's managed by Vermont Dam Safety that we have imported into our free Vermont Rivers website just to track dams and then we've sort of categorized it by those that are active functioning dams and those that are derelict abandoned dams. Those that we have removed, like physically removed versus those that have been breached by natural causes. So yeah, that's my time option. And I think on your website, what we have about 800? Yes, there are about 800 to 1,000 derelict dams in the state that are just remnant dams from the industrial era when they were used for power for mills. And those dams are no longer serving any useful purpose. So they're in the waterway, they're a barrier, whether it's a stone or an earthen or a concrete barrier to a river system. So it's basically fragmenting a river system and creating this impoundment that then becomes a lake behind the dam. There's a picture here. What dam is, where is this located? This is the Pelletier Dam in Castleton, Vermont off East Hubbardton Road and it's on a tributary to the Castleton River. It's called North Breton Brook and we are actually removing that dam as we speak. So removal started in July 7th and is about a two month process. So yeah, there's excavators on site right now and we've chipped away at the face of the dam and they've built a temporary access road behind the dam to remove the impounded sediment that's accumulated behind that dam to restore the historic channel. So that's a lot of word. Impounded sediment. So one of the things, you know, one of the videos I watched was the Millbrook Dam. Millpond Dam. Millpond Dam in Colchester. And I think it's said 20,000 pounds of impounded sediment filled with phosphorus. Talk a little bit about what happens when buildups, so the water's carrying. So rivers transport sediment along with wildlife and nutrients. So there's all these things moving through a river system naturally and starts in the headwaters and ultimately ends up in Lake Champlain or the ocean depending on where you are. But when you block that system and create a dam, that sediment builds up behind that dam so it's impounded. And historically with these mills they would have to clean out the dredged the pond regularly to keep it so that you could actively provide energy there. But with these abandoned dams no one's dredging and that sediment's accumulating and over time it just creates this huge pile of impounded sediment. And whatever is in that sediment is certainly dependent on what's upstream of the dam. So you know in urban areas or areas with lots of intensive ag above them, those tend to be higher in phosphorus. So a dam lower in the watershed might have more phosphorus than a dam high up in the watershed that's really in a forested area that doesn't have a lot of activity upstream, human activity. So that, so yeah when you're removing, so it depends on the dam certainly the amount of phosphorus behind the dam and often there can be other contaminants as well. We removed a dam in Rutland last year that had, the mill was a tannery so there was like some, definitely some contaminants in that dam so that sediment has to be stored within the city of Rutland so because it's hazardous but it's fine to use within the soils layer within the city of Rutland. So yeah depending on the dam there's a huge phosphorus benefit with all the dams both from the sediment you're actually removing that one time sediment but also just from a functioning flood plain concept of connecting the river system and restoring the flood plain and creating a moving channel and just reconnecting that geomorphology you're improving sediment so there's like a sediment or a phosphorus crediting system now through the functioning flood plain initiative which is a program that DEC has started and so there's actually a phosphorus calculator now for dam removal work and culvert replacements and reconnecting rivers. And is that for landowners to use too? It's for, basically it's for water quality projects so projects that have clean water funding through the state based on the EPA's TMDL for Lake Champlain, TMDL, total maximum daily load of phosphorus that can, so the EPA has to set a threshold for Lake Champlain and so in trying to meet that TMDL goals there is a huge effort to restore river systems and reconnect waters and create flood plains and restore wetlands and basically create functioning freshwater systems that connect to the lake or connect to the Connecticut River and so there is a phosphorus calculator that helps just figure out benefits when you're weighing all these projects and which ones to do, they're all very important in different ways and a piece of that puzzle is the phosphorus crediting system. Great, so I brought up the map again because I think for me the big picture is about how water flows through, so water evaporates, it comes down and the land, the surface water and then the ground water, it's all part of the same network, I think of it almost like a big lacy system. Totally, underground, above ground, it's the lifeblood, right? And so why is it important to have water flowing through those ecosystems? It's important for biodiversity, it moves food and habitat, wildlife through systems and those systems are dynamic and they need that energy. So ultimately the lake depends on cold water and temperature and turbidity and dissolved oxygen, all of those things and that sediment creates point bars and beach formations and all of that stuff so having those systems moving and functioning is critical to ultimately to the health of the lake but also to the health of those river systems and all of the species that live there. So one question and this may not even be relevant, should these dams never have been built for the health and safety or is this just, this is where we're at in terms of improving the health and safety of the lake today? Well I think they truly served a purpose in the industrial age and that's why a lot of our town centers are along river systems is because that's where the power was and that's where the settlement is. That power is no longer an efficient source and those small dams are no longer beneficial and the value in reconnecting them and the benefits of that far outweighs what was the historical benefit of having those dams. So that's real. That being said, the residences, the urban development is still along the waterways in certain areas so we have to protect that infrastructure and to the best of our ability. But yes, with climate change and climate preparedness, reconnecting rivers through dam removal and culvert replacement is a nature-based solution that helps provide a resilient landscape and hopefully helps lower temperature and improve the quality of the river system in the lake. And maybe keeps the beaches open. And hopefully keeps the beaches open. I mean it's all contributing. There's a lot of factors there but this is certainly one of them. Well because the phosphorus feeds the cyanobacteria? Yes. The phosphorus just for folks. Look back, phosphorus is like nutrients. Yes, it's nutrients and it's a concentration of nutrients. I am not a phosphorus expert by any means. So Matt Vaughn from Lake Champlain Basin, I think he was on VPR a couple of weeks ago. But he's the guy to talk to about the phosphorus blooms and the cyanobacteria but certainly the more we can do to keep the system connected and water moving, it's that lack of oxygen that creates the cyanobacteria blooms. Got it. But phosphorus is like a buildup of waste matter? Yes. Like animal, human, cow. And it can come from agricultural runoff and from storm water systems and wastewater systems. Are you finding, is there resistance in communities to removal of these dams? Yeah certainly there is. A lot of these dams are historic and people love the history that's associated with the dam. The dam tells a story to them. They're aesthetically can be very pleasing. Some people say they like the sound of the water flowing over the dam. So there are all those factors. So people are attached to their dams in some ways but I feel that in working with these communities and it takes a long time to remove a dam, it can be like a three to five year process in a lot of places. And over that time we certainly wouldn't push a dam that the community didn't support but just spending time with them to identify the values of that community. Often what comes forward is the values of recreation, having a connected system, improving biodiversity, improving water temperature, water quality and public safety. If these dams fail, there can be a huge flood threat as well which is something that I think a lot of people don't necessarily think of until it's too late. So those benefits far outweigh the benefit of having the historic dam and the sound. And some people just, it's a change of thinking to have a historic dam that makes noise versus a naturally free flowing river that makes, you know, babbling brook in their backyard versus an impounded stagnant pond. So those are changes that take time and not everyone is open to that. Yeah, we'll play, at the end of this we'll play the mill pond dam. Yes. I'm just going to bring it up here for a second. And you can see that water flowing through and you can see the failing dam, how much water is seeping through the stone or the concrete. But that is just a dam that potentially could fail with the next storm. So that's a real thing is that there isn't funding to restore these old dams because they're not used. And is this Indianbrook what ends up in Indianbrook reservoir or vice versa? This is below Indianbrook reservoir. Because it comes out of the rocks. Yes. There were several buildings on both sides of the road. And have there been any examples of stories where people have preserved historic elements? Yes, yes. So yes, so creating benches out of the historic stone and signage and leaving the abutments is a nice way to preserve the historic piece and still tell the story. Neat. Let's go back and look at the website for a few minutes and just walk us through this. Because this is pretty amazing the work that VNRC has done. And this is freevermontrivers.org. That's a project of VNRC? Correct. Okay. And tell us a little bit about VNRC. Who are you? Where do you get your funding from? Yeah. So Vermont Natural Resources Council is a non-profit environmental advocacy group. And we work on environmental policy and community policy issues throughout the state. And as part of that work we also do some actual on the ground implementation ecological restoration based projects. And dam removal is one of those that VNRC took on before my time. Brian Fitzgerald worked before me in this position. And I took over his position about two and a half years ago. And I hadn't actually removed a dam until two years ago. But I had a strong water resource scientist background as a consulting scientist both in wetlands and wildlife and was excited to jump into this role. And there was a huge need throughout the state just with the number of dams that are derelict and in disrepair and causing a public hazard. And part of that position I chair the Vermont Dam Task Force which is a coalition of scientists, just private folks, regulators, state and federal. Anyone really who's interested in dam removal and the projects around the state is welcome to join. We meet every other month and we sort of just come together to discuss the projects, prioritize projects, support each other with funding. It takes a lot of money to remove a dam and a lot of planning and community support. So it's truly a team effort and the Dam Task Force is leading that effort. So folks can come to you and say, I have a dam on my property or I've identified a dam and I'd like to see this removed. Yes. And they, so I should also say that Vermont Dam Safety has a button on their website where you can actually put in the information of your dam if it doesn't show up on the map because certainly what we have as far as our inventory isn't completely up to date. So there's more dams out there than we have so you can always add your dam there but reaching out to me at VNRC and either through VNRC or the Free Vermont Rivers website is another way to identify your dam and then if you're interested in removal or wanting to learn more and a lot of people are interested because it's a liability to have a dam on their property from an insurance perspective because again if that dam were to fail and there were people swimming below it or hanging out in the river or potentially damaging public infrastructure, roads, houses downstream. So there's a lot of different scenarios and reasons why you don't necessarily want to own a dam especially a dam that you can't repair. So folks reach out and we have a list and we prioritize it for removal and funding and the funding is coming from all different folks and the more stakeholders we have in the process the stronger the process is. So we have U.S. Fish and Wildlife is a funder, DEC through the Clean Water Program and the EPA funds. The Nature Conservancy is a funder. VNRC obviously through our work, Vermont Fish and Wildlife Department is a funder. They also own, so the state owns a lot of dams as well. So we're working on the dam we're removing in Castleton as a state-owned dam. So I'm sure I'm missing a lot of other funders. Lake Champlain Basin Program is a huge funder. Sounds like a partnership. Yes, strong partnership. And let's go back and look at the Free Vermont Rivers website just briefly and walk us through how someone might use this to understand what's going on. Yeah, so you can go to this website and sort of, it's sort of designed to be a roadmap for learning about dam removal. And the Vermont Dam Mapper shows all of those active dams in the state. You can toggle back and forth and zoom into an area. And so let's turn, if we want to go under Project Status there, Megan, and you can turn on Removed. Yeah, and then you can zoom right into one of those dams and see. Let's do one in our area. Yeah, so maybe Melpond, we could find Melpond. Would that be in closer to here? Well, let's do this one here in this extension. This is my hometown. So here we are, yeah. So Jerica won on the Low Moille River. And if you scroll down there, sometimes you can find out more information on when it was removed. So it's a headwater of the Browns River that gives you the coordinates. This one in particular doesn't have a ton of information as to when it was removed. But it does have an ecological rating, some of that tier TNC. It was a medium rated dam as far as ecological value for removal. And let's see, we'll go to Chase Mills. So that's, yeah. So there's all. These may have been removed, but earlier. Yeah, these were earlier. Yeah. Tell me where would I find the, yeah. Let me just help you find one that is like Melpond or anything like that too. This hasn't been updated from last year yet because we're still in the process. Yeah. So interesting though, all of those, just all of those little tiny dams that at some point, is there ever in any of these cases have you found a dam that people thought, well, we're not going to remove this. We're going to actually reuse it. Is there any like restoration and reusing of dams? So there are some dams that have, you know, there's, obviously we're working to meet our renewable energy goals as well. And hydropower is a form of energy, renewable energy on some level. But a lot of these dams, it's not efficient. They're not efficient to provide hydropower. They're not designed for that. That's not what they were built. I mean, they were built really as a small scale dam. But there are proposals that come forward for small scale hydropower on some of these dams sometimes. One of them is the Swanton Dam, Stonecat Hydro. Just submitted a proposal for relicensing of that dam for hydro. And that has been an abandoned unused dam. And we'll see how that process plays out. If it can meet the Vermont water quality standards, which require fish passage and temperature control and all of the things that keep our waters clean, then that could be a successful project. So that's neat. This is, I just want to share one more piece from the dam removal, the Free Vermont Rivers dot org website, which is this, what do we call this, kind of a geospatial? Yeah, so this is drone footage. We've been trying to collect aerial imagery, pre and post dam removal for a handful of projects throughout the state. And we actually just received funding to continue this work. So that's really exciting. So what are we looking at? So right now you're looking at the Cross Brothers Dam in Northfield, Vermont. And that was the drone imagery flight that you see zoomed in over that select portion of the Dog River. And you're looking at the road, there's a bridge crossing, and then right, sort of in the middle of the imagery. And then right to the right of that, you can see the dam. Yep, right there. And so this is pre-dam removal, and we actually haven't removed this dam yet. So we'll do another flyover, post removal, and see how this channel changes after removal and with the excavated sediment removal. And I could find out, I could go back to this dam removals in Vermont and find out how many dams are actually on the Dog River. Totally, where are those barriers at? I mean, we only have a couple minutes left, but something like the impact of Irene. Yes. And these dams. What is there a relationship between, you know, something like the Dog River, which really carried a ton of water into all sorts of Waterbury. Right. The Interveil in Burlington. Totally. So removing these dams, reconnects the river and re-establishes a floodplain. So in an area that was impounded with sediment and holding back water with a storm like Irene, there's nowhere for that water to go, but over the dam or breach the dam, if the dam is not in good condition, you know, it just might blow out and flood downstream homes. But with removal of the dam, you then have a free-flowing river with an established floodplain on either side so that those high flows. Is that this picture? Hold on, let me bring that picture up so we can see it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So this is a... I've got to get back there. There you go. It's some drone imagery of another dam, Connolly Pond Dam, where we actually did have to do an emergency drawdown because the dam was failing and it was going to potentially damage downstream infrastructure. But you can see all the area that, all the bright green is the area that was impounded with water. And now you can see the natural channel flowing through and where it was a river and wants to be a river again. And you can see here where even this... Yes, that's where there's still a barrier, so it's starting to impound there. And we're hoping to take out, so this is an earthen dam that we will remove and then you'll have a fully restored channel. But then when a storm event comes in a headwater dam like this or lower down, those high flows can actually disperse within that natural floodplain. So we'll reform that floodplain. Great. Yeah. Karina, thank you so much for coming and sharing all this information. Is there any last thing that you feel like I really need to make sure people hear? I think it's just the importance of restoring these systems that we want fully functioning freshwater in tax systems. It's really simple. It's just restoring what was historically there to the best that we can, given all of the human development that's on the landscape, and that's a reality as well. And dams are one of the things that gets in the way of the system. Exactly. Among so many others. Exactly. So something you can focus on and make an improvement. But it's really exciting work. Cool. Great. Thanks for joining us and thanks for sharing all this great information. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thanks for watching.