 Can I start? Okay. Hi, everyone. My name is Pipat Kajajan Ogob, a co-organizer of SAP seminar series and PhD candidate at SOS. First of all, this webinar or seminar is supported by Southeast Asian Art Academic Program, or SAP, and Center of Southeast Asian Studies, or CSES. SAP aims to understand and preserve the Hindu and Buddhist art and accuracy, emphasizing the ancient and pre-modern period of Southeast Asia. The program supports many scholarships, funds with fully endo-academic course at SOS, as well as support research and publishing indictative conferences, lectures and workshops in London and Southeast Asia. So today, we got the honor from our speakers who are going to talk about their research on shipwrecks and maritime networks. I'm pleased to introduce Apeerada, Gomut, or Nong Phuk, and Goh Tung Kieng, or Alex. This is in the final year of her doctoral studies in maritime accuracy at the University of Western Australia. Her primary work on maritime and underwater cultural heritage has been conducted in close collaboration with the Thai government. Quickly, she expanded her interest to include the maritime history of Southeast Asia and the border Indian Ocean. Her current research focuses on the study of the Panam Surin shipwreck in Thailand in Sumosakon, which is my hometown. She aims to understand the maritime connections of the Indian Ocean world in the late 1st millennium CE. Her presentation has many technical terms. If you want to understand more, you can download her hand out at South Facebook, I will upload in Facebook after this presentation. For Alex, he served as General Secretary of Southeast Asian Ceramic Society in Singapore during 2013 to 2014. He lectured at the Society of Asia Research Institute and Asian Civilizations Museum. He has also presented papers at scientific conferences in Asia and Europe. He is currently head of Department of Information and International Cooperation Institute of Imperial Citadel Studies, Vietnam Academic of Social Science. He is in charge of promoting international cooperation in the field of archaeology and Vietnamese history, organizes international conferences, and is now constructing a database for the Institute. His work includes the research, classification, evaluation, and compilation of scientific documents related to the Tang Long Imperial Citadel site in Hanoi. An excavation at the site of Jampa and of L in southern Vietnam. Alex has received a number of research fellowships and was including the research fellowship for Southeast Asian scholars at the University of Michigan in 2013. He worked on the economic integration of Jampa into the regional and global economic system during 800 to 1450 CE. He has also published internationally including most recently a chapter post and trade in Amarawati, in white brandy in stone, the masterpiece of the Nang Museum of Jamsculture in 2018. Yes, the format of this seminar in each of our speaker has 40 or 45 minutes for presenting your work or their work, and the list of the time around 20 minutes is for the Q&A session. If anyone has a question or comments, please leave us into the Q&A chat in Zoom, and we will answer after Alex's presentation. Okay, so this webinar, I would like to say that we will also record it and download on Facebook after the end of this webinar. So for this webinar, we will go to present your work first, and then Alex will be the second speaker. So thank you very much and enjoy your presentation. Thank you, pick up for introduction. Let me do the technical part, sharing the screen. All right. Can anyone feed back if you see my slide properly? Yeah, it's perfect. All right. Thank you again, pick up. And so that's University for inviting me and all the organizers as well. And just hope that you guys, everyone's as well, wherever you are, although I couldn't see your reactions on my talk, but that's all right. We get used to it. So tonight, I'm presenting the Ponom Surinche Brake and the cultural exchange between mainland Southeast Asia and the wider in the ocean world in the late first millennium CE. And my research, I try to use as variety evidence approach to my research and the shipbuilding technology is the core and analyzing the in the ocean world connections based on selective structures. And then in the end, I will wide it up with some land and regionals connections. Let's start with the space of diversity. The inner ocean world is the, or the inner ocean areas. It's, it's a huge space, bordered by three continents, Africa, Asia, Australia, and defining ocean boundary would never be simple as all oceans are connected and, it's always cultural exchange. Within the Indian Ocean, there are diversity of politics, political system, and language as well, even more variety. And it's also diversity of religions and believe that straight, it's, it's the fundamental of people's thought and action. So it's great and inference by religions into social system, language and, you know, everything. A natural, natural political boundary can be easier to defy. But the cultural boundary of the Indian Ocean, it's not. So I present in the ocean under the world concept as intended to present it into a one thing, a one world or a single entity. So I see in the ocean as a cultural area of communication. There has been several terms that have been suggested to call this area, because somehow Indian is not speak for the whole story. The agency has been suggested, as well as Africa see and many more. So I follow McPherson, for example, using the Indian Ocean world as the one complex and distinctive world of human activities. So therefore, in the ocean world in my research recovery regions as far as Southeast Asia and East Asia. And the concept was adopted by friend scholar, many of you may know Bodil, who proposed the world of Mediterranean as a single entity with marginal inference from the outsider. But previous research of the world concept were mostly focusing on trade. But recently, scholar like Ceyland and Himanshire to name a few are starting to expand the trade connection to include a social religion aspect and many more into the story of the history of Indian Ocean. And Southeast Asian is also focused on statehood and unionization localization that kind of connections and I think Alex would touch upon this issue in more detail. While maintaining the importance of trade and profit making as a major motivation for the past people to take a race at the sea and long distance traveling. I also argue the complexity of human contacts through the study of chip building technology, and the PNS is the evidence that giving more insight and insightful information for my argument. So tonight. I'm just going to let you know that somehow I use Ponom serene chip and the acronyms that I use is the PNS interchangeably says don't be too confused by that. It's the same chip. For those who are not familiar with the PNS or the Ponom serene. The first facts about the site is the name is came from the combination of the land owners name is Ponom and Mr serene CMD. It is located near the upper coast of the present. Garth of present day Garth of Thailand or the lower central plain of Thailand. And on your right you should see the map reconstruction of the ancient Garth of Thailand. In the last 100 years ago, the PNS could have located somewhere in the right dot here, which could have been below the shoreline here. So the land formation and environments has been changed significantly and that area was so environmental dynamic. So through time the site now a day has been on land and right and resting between two major river, the Tajin River on the left and just behind that picture. And it's closer to Tajin River and just about eight kilometer from the shoreline and the date of the site it's around eight. So I'm sorry, nice century from the radio carbon data and Chinese ceramics. And over the course of the history, the Indian Ocean regions developed that own historical timeline so different regions different history, of course, and our focus today is the first millennium C which cover in a busside, a busside, a caliphate in the West, and India, it's by different and nasty. This is Asia, many kingdoms as well see which are yet to poverty and late, as you can say, and up there in China, it's tongue power has almost unite the whole area. And then how the PNS ship of provide us the understanding of Indian Ocean world maritime connections during the time in question. I am looking at the, the plank fasting method of the PNS is the most observable feature that making the term of the chip technology which call stone plank technology. Well, I mean by stone plank that's actually has been several terms has been in use like stitching, lacing, but I use some plank to describe this kind of fastening, which mean the use of fiber cordage to make continuous stitching over the warding and the pattern are the combination of diagonal and vertical lines look like this. So the one in Yemen and crela, you can see it more clearly. So this similar a stone plank pattern found all over in the ocean chores, regardless of time, and most of the plank stone plank studies relied on ethnographic information due to the survival evidence. There are only two archaeological examples of full wrecks found, which are the Bellatong and the PNS ships, and both are in Southeast Asia. The Arabian Sea regions covered in my meaning, it's covered the ratesy and the Persian Gulf as well. So, and down to East Africa and the West Coast of India. So all of these area. The sun plank has been identified. Up here, the two top pictures. One on the left, it's the remains of stone plank from architect architectures. And also the same in Evelyn than the other pictures. These are archaeological remains from the land sites that shows the stone plants has what's present in that area, during 10 to 15th century as archaeological finds. And in the East Coast, if we looked at the zone plant fastening, it's actually presented in the West and coast of Bay of Bengal, which is along the eastern coastline of India or Russia. And down to Caramandel. It is called Mansura. That's still being practiced today. And the other one is Yatrodoni found in Sri Lanka, it's recently extinct, but it's possible to study through models. And now I jumped to East Asian technology, building technology, because I would like you to see the complete contrast between these two region within the inner ocean world in East Asia. This is a rare example of cheap technology, cheap archaeology, but it's not impossible. We got one, which is regal shape of tongue period it's actually a river, a river vessel. So if you focus on the, the planking system, it has complete different planking system to the Indian Ocean that we've seen just now, because there is no sign, no fiber cordage, and the complicated planking construction. In East Asia, they would have a double or triple layer of planked bow together, and especially the bulkhead system. And Southeast Asia is in the area where many things, that's no one thing that happens, you know, like it's the place of contact. In this region, we see the local ship, which is the ancient ship, and the local, which is this one, it's a stitch, I would say later it's more complicated, and the sun plank, which similar to the Indian Ocean world regions. That cluster with the local lash lock vessels. And for the stitch plank, it's, there is no archaeology to what I understand at the moment. The only ethnography that has been found in Northern Vietnam and South and China they share within that area and it's the plant are combined with individual stitching, not so in my meaning which is the continuous stitching. You confuse. Yeah. So we go on. So, now I hope that I was successfully presented to you. The variety of chip technology in Southeast Asia was that is actually in the Indian Ocean world, but it's actually, there are more variety of the modern ship, which I didn't touch. I would like to just focus on the, the, the, the court is fastening method, and to compare with what we've had in, in the penis. Next is the fun part, it's technical comparison. Let me start with the structure. The, the principle structure that giving longitudinal lateral strength to the ship. I compare vessels from the, the PNS debilitating and are there from in the ocean, which is Missoula from East India. Yeah, Trudoni from Sri Lanka. The two of them, the seven plank of Karela or West India as representation and Arabia Peninsula and the matter pay in East Africa. To see all of them would have used keel, except for the katumbalam is only have bought brought up a spatial border. Q plank, not a small keel like other and the Kielsen Kielsen is interesting because it's only been found in so in plank archeology. And this one I put the question mark in them a tape it was an interesting discussion in the 80s between Robert Adams and Prince on the a block of timber. In the, that sitting longitudinal in the material pay, which could be work as a mass must step. But it was too long to be a master. But if it's a Kielsen, it's due to short to be Kielsen so that it's still that debate is still ongoing, and I am not going to answer that. It's just living as a question mark and calling Kielsen and keel may be more familiar to many of you but calling it's something that is only foul. Well, there's a trace of calling we don't felt we haven't found the timber of the calling yet. There was a trace that could be, and if they're calling that would. The calling would present as a structure in in Arabian chip. Next to transfer strengths. The strength across the whole which is beam and and frame. So the framing system use all over half frame or full frame, except for Missoula, there is no frame that's frameless. Stroke beams or stroke beams. There are difference between through beam and stroke beam and confusing one is protruding throat beams that could be, you know, look like a through beam but it actually technically different. Stroke beams would be could be smaller and giving less strength to the whole but through beam. It's the bigger one and stronger through beams has been used in yatra doni and the Arabian peninsula ship, similar to the p&s and and the belitung. But in the yatra doni that isn't so. So this one is interesting to this is the model I made with Nick Burningham and Tom始man. The spa is a general term for any wooden or metal supports for rigging of the ship, and we put the spa as a mask, which is wrong. It's not a right setting for the spa for two reasons. So these one here. If the spa is meant to be rotatable, it would rotate across the whole, which is unusual. And there is no shoulder here to have the rigging sit on. So we're probably not as far and what is it related to these populations. It could be about spread or that's true. If it's a bad split, it can be either of these. It can't be both. And that's great appear in yatra doni. And the Arabian vessel and metopei. And it's also found in Southeast Asia to in the brobo dough. And just to just the Arabian spatial. So when I compare everything. It's look like it's look more like the Arabian peninsula is more likely. But it's could be similar, but it's not identical that could be. That's not good. There is the use of dowels. The oblique dowels used in the Arabian sea. The Arabian peninsula vessel and the blind out use in metopei, which is, it could be relate or not related to Southeast Asian blind out. That's something we have to discuss. And yeah, and there is no doubt found in PNS yet, but no doubt, but there's a plan with dowels found in the PNS, but no, no actual doubt yet. So this is a mistress. We're looking at the relationship between the PNS and Southeast Asia we see materials Southeast Asian material or Southeast Asian source material that could be found. Timber can be debatable but a ring of pinata is pretty much certain. And a ring of pinata used in the chip structure in the in the PNS in the lash lock, and it's also associated with ceramics torpedo jar and Chinese service also had a ring of pinata rope associated to it. And the corner at the bottom corner left side is the dodgy black rope that I found in the Bellatom collection in Singapore, which hasn't been identified yet. We have to do it in the future. In terms of chip technology, it seems like the China and East Asia has been cut out of the Indian Ocean world, but it's actually in Chinese take of the 14th century had mentioned the use of a ring of fiber for chip building. But it was for a ship that could be alive with lash lock and stone plank. The Arab texts that have often been referred. Telling us that the Arab shipwright has traveled outside of that region to build that ship, but unfortunately, they never mentioned that the build ship in Southeast Asia. And within the PNS we have seen a lot of materials on cross cultural that could reflect cross cross culture. And that could be through trade or religion. The international network, the rate dot and brown dot are lash lock technology that indicating that these are local route and to have to have the PNS in the upper Gulf of Thailand. And showing that there is, you know, they the Arab, or the Indian Ocean people have travel and have a contact with local people at the local route. So the discovery of the PNS has come into the argument that the role, the maritime role of to variety, which is the close by kingdom may have been more active than previous understanding, and the Arab also have directly participated in in the local route and build a complex relationship with the locals. And beside a trading purpose, if the PNS would have been constructed or substantially repaired in Southeast Asia, they might have the shipwright might have been spent might have spent longer time in the region rather than just hopping on and off from port to port. They have to stay. And there are information about these are information about the lives of the people that reflecting from archaeological finds that's not a selective recording. And this site is important to minimize the gap knowledge that has that is absent from the textual evidence and much more to learn from. Thank you. Thank you for your presentation. I really enjoyed because it seemed like I listened to a critical site in my home, you know, you bound to it. So, I think we should go to the second speaker, who is Alex. Okay, I like is your turn. Go on. Turn on your microphone. Alex. Alex your mute your mute your microphone. Okay. Hello. Hello. Can you hear me. Yes. Yes. Okay, thank you. Good evening, everybody. So, um, thank you people and thank you show us for inviting me and book for presenting today. And after listening books presentation on the Phanom Surincy Rex in in Thailand. So, now I would like to talk about the charm past long distant cultural exchange and the view from the maritime archaeology and history, and with the special with the special attention on the reason the newly discovery secrets and the ceramics collection in the central Vietnam. In the former territory of Champa. So, my name is the ocean down or you can or Alex down. So I am a researcher at the Institute of Imperial study and the Vietnam Academy of Social Science. My field research is a Champa history and the trading ceramic trading ceramics in India. So, for my study and for my present, my presentation today, I will focus on the on the. I agree. I will talk about a story about the, what about the Champa maritime history from the perspective of archaeology and history and my personal experience in this field. So, all started with a reason research result by the lead professor. Michael victory, in which he owes her and he's asked for for a more detailed study on the on the field of the maritime trade in the history of Champa, because according to him the previous study. More detail on such much matter may have to understand the development and decline of the different Champa pause and the river valley hinterlands in accordance with the chain in demand for different products in China. So, my field of study is the center of Vietnam on there in the interest in this, the coastal area of the central Vietnam, where is the former territory of the Champa Kingdom. I have prepared a very long and many details lines to describe about the, you know, the trading activities and their trading activity between Champa and their with the Chinese dynasty of the tongue and the show dynasty, but I change a bit to have more time to talk and discuss about the collection of the ceramics from the shipwreck. This map, this map and this painting so an illustration of the, of the connection between Champa with the tongue and the song in the during the seven to the 13th century. And the painting the in the above of the slide so that it is supposed to be or the picture of a mission envoy is from Champa sent to the town town court in from the historical text we have learned about the engagement of Champa into the maritime trade network during the tongue and the song period, and it's including the indigenous commodities and also the foreign commodities that the Kings and Champa and boy sent to the Chinese dynasty, for example, the indigenous commodities here are featuring the important role of the Highlanders and their upland reason in Champa, in which they, in which they provide a very important and luxuries, luxurious commodities for their international markets. And Champa, Champa Kings also sent their foreign commodity that's obtained from through the long distance trade to the to China markets, for example, the rosewater from the person graph or the fan oil and the Tashi vase. From the, I think that from the eight or the ninth century onward, when the Arab trader or the Muslim merchants, they interviewed a network in the Indian Ocean. That's they, that's they, they undertook the trade between the Western idea to the China and they created the so called Arab Mediterranean by the ninth century. And from the time onward, the Champa Kings and Champa, Champa people, they did engage deeply into the network of the Arab merchants. The Chinese text did mention many times about the connection between the Champa advised with Arab trader when they sent advice to the Chinese cost. For example, in this slide, you can see that many example like in 958, Champa envoys to the true cause were led by the Busan, probably Abu Hassan in the Arab language. Or like in 988, Hushan or Hussain, another Muslim from Champa led 300 members to Guangzhou. By the ninth century, they are two important Arab girls mentioning about the positions and their about the position of the Champa pause. The earliest one is the Kitab An Masalik Wan Malalik, written by In Huda Bi. And the second one is a Afban Ansin Wan Hind, he's dated around the middle of the ninth century. The first documents are described about a journey of three days from the Cambodia. It's named as the Kui Ma to Champa, it's named as the Santh before sailing to Anam in Luchin. And the second one, the second accounts of the Arab text are mentioning about the journey from Katharang, probably Cambodia to the Santh or Champa and on the way sailing to the Guangzhou Canton. And so both of the documents featuring the position of the Champa in the name of Santh as a Latin nation in their maritime route of during the Tang period, just connecting the Arab trader with the Chinese markets by the ninth century. So apart from the two important Arab accounts, just featuring the important position of Champa in the maritime trade network by the ninth century, I started my personal journey in finding the exact location of where was Santh and where was Santh. And where was the important port for the trading by the ninth century in Champa. And previous study has divided Champa territory into several important Nakara or the small politics, including the Amaravati in the in the Danang or the Guangnam province. The province nowadays, the VTR Nakara in the Bindin nowadays, the Kautara and the Panturanga in Nha Trang and in Lingbing Twan today. Based on the Chinese takes by the ninth century, they featuring the position of the Changpu Lao San in the history of the two bone river that's on the east coast of the Danang or Guangnam province in the Amaravati region. So I, and this is a location that's where still very important archaeological remains of the Champa civilizations still appear, including the very important Midsun sanctuaries and the Dongzong sanctuaries and also the Chaqiao citadels of the Champa before the 10th century. This map prepared by Arnaveri Strayer just featuring the important site and political centers of Champa by the 9th and 10th centuries. And I pay special attention to the area of the so called Amaravati region in the Guangnam and Guangnam province. Now, I look at the evidence and information from the Champa inscription. I treat in recent years many important advancement in the field of the Champa inscription and the Champa inscription have allowed me and other researchers have a better understanding of the the information about the history of Champa in the previous, in the ancient times. By the 9th century, the encryption of Amaravati region especially recorded the integration of the international maritime trade of the Champa with the with the outside world. For example, the Nyan Bil inscription dating to early 10th century is provide a detailed account of the, of a person named the Pope Loon Raja Dara, the son of the Queen's cousin who had become the favorite of King Charasimha Vakman and was sent on a diplomatic mission to Java. The other one is the Bang'an inscription in Amaravati also details the Monte Tunis royal ambassadors coming from different countries to visit the Champa court. And the Huakui inscription referred to an important curator branch of the royal family we surprised high officer to the kingdom. This is the location of the Nyan Bil inscription is dated to the early 10th century. And this Nyan Bil inscription provide the information about that a person from the Champa court was sent to the Java or is written in the inscription was Java depart and this map so the location of the Bang'an inscription dated to the early 10th century. So, apart from the information from the Chinese takes them from the Arabic takes and also from their, the, the Champa inscription. I pay special attention to their two bone river network. And in this area in this, in this river network. Many archaeological activation has been undertaken by the Vietnamese and the Japanese archaeologists and many important site has been discovered like for example, the Nam Thosan, the Housa, the Boda in and around the present day city. And along the two bone river. There are many important various centers, political centers and the economic centers of the ancient Champa kingdoms. For example, in the west of the west of the inner upland of the two bone river is the Mi Son Sanctuary and the nearby is the Cha Kio Citadel or in the southern is the Dong Xuan Sanctuary and the Kulao Cham is in the east of the Port An City. So, in according to the archaeological research by the Vietnamese and Japanese archaeologists in the previous study, many important trading objects has been recovered from the site, for example, in Nam Thosan, in Housa or in some other site or in Kulao Cham. And archaeologists has founded with the Chang Sa ceremonies with their Islamic ceremonies and with their Western ideas grasses. So this is a very important clue that I started my journey for my research trip to Hoi An in many years recently and especially in 2013. In 2013. I was participated by Pro-Chun Ki-Fuan and Ms. Duyen Nguyen, two important Champa experts who joined me for chasing the vets up the Champa trading activities in the Hoi An and the two bone river network. So then we visited some museum in the Hoi An town and where we document the trading ceremonies that's excavated by the archaeologists earlier. For example, the photos of some U.H.O. and Chang Sa ceremonies are from the 9th and 10th century. In the museum, they also have the fragments of the Western ideas pottery and I put a complete vessel here, provided by Professor John Guy for a comparison that this guy of vessel has been excavated in Hoi An region. But during our fieldwork in Hoi An region and Guang Nam, I was provided an important information is about the finding of the D-Narp Coins near the Cha Kiao Citadel and this photo provided by the lead by the Nguyen Chiang Tang and when I, the above photos are Abbasid Gold Coins from the display at the British Museum. So you can see that it's quite similar. And this type of Abbasid Gold Coins has been very popular in the Western idea and even in the East of Africa during the 9th century. After we did the research in Hoi An and the Guang Nam region, we moved further to the south to the Guang Ngai province in the south of Hoi An and in the north of the Binh Deng province. The map here provides, the map here provides by a very strange and the photo is I took during my fieldwork. And in this area, there are important citadel is called the Chosa Citadel and the important ancient port of the Champa previous to the 7th century. The photo taken from the Leeson Island. And in Guang Ngai province, I had a chance to meet with Mr. Lam Xuxing, a very famous collectors in Guang Ngai province and in central Vietnam. And during this visit, he introduced me many important fighting from his collection, including many shipwrecks, remains, not only one, but I think that there are around three or four ships, remains different ships in his collection. For example, this one is a remains of the above 18th or the 19th century shipwrecks. And during this field trip, I had a great opportunity to study and to have a, to touch the object and have opportunity to study the object from the so-called Chotun shipwrecks in the Guang Ngai province. And this shipwreck was found by a local fisherman during the 2009 to 2012 and all was collected by Mr. Lam Xuxing and all now are put in his private collection or private museum in his homeland now in Guang Ngai province. And I did visit here this collection again in 2014 and 2017. As it maps, so the location of the location of the Chotun shipwrecks that I will talk in detail in the later slides. So this is me when I first visited him in 2012 and with many important ceramic stars. But to be honest, by that time, in 2012, I did not know much about the ceramics. Just until I, I made this collection and I took a many photos from the, from the, from Mr. Seng's collection, then I brought back to Singapore by the time I was in Singapore and I studied under John Mixick and Pro Blockhead. So when I bring all the photo back to Singapore and consult with John Mixick, he encouraged me going back to Vietnam and do a detailed study about this important collection. So, and then I followed his guidance and went back to Vietnam and stayed there for several months and traveling along the coast of Vietnam to find more evidence and especially to study this collection. And also by that time in 2000, during late 2012 and 2013, the late Professor Nisi Murra also encountered with this collection and he spent many, a lot of time studying this collection with Mr. Seng and Professor, the late Professor Nisi Murra has had a very detailed plan for studying this collection and for promoting the values of this collection of which he dated back to the 9th century and he, he also played, he also played a very great attention to this. But the late Professor Nisi Murra, he certainly passed away in the, I think that by the middle of the 2013 and after he passed away, his wife, Dr. Noriko and other Vietnamese and Japanese researcher continued to take over this task. So in the, for the Jotun ship, right, according to Chun Kimura, a member of the Nisi Murra project and his team, there are more than 40 ship timbers has been recovered and put into the collection of Mr. Seng and including the planes and the flames, the horn remains, the wooden ankles, the total length of the original King Timber is about 2022 matches. And so this Chun Kimura concludes that the total length of the ship could be around 25 or 26 matches. So according to the Nisi Murra project, although there are some distinctive characteristics in the structure of the Jotun ship, the overall structure features of the horn represent a type of the ship built using an indigenous ship building technology of South Asia. Here are some photos of the ship timbers of the Jotun ship, right. Because I'm not an expert in the field of the ship and the ship technology, so I just put some slide and some photo here for the reference, and I will pay more attention on the collection of the ceramics. The Nisi Murra project teams, they have a very, they form a very good teams of researchers and they have a detailed study on this collection. And according to Nisi Murra project team, there are many inscriptions on the base of the pottery jars and the basins with two types of the inside and the ink inscriptions are very stimulating. The total size was, the total of the inside inscriptions were 147. This number was counted by 2015. And more than 400 of the size with the ink inscriptions, including the 19 inscriptions from in Chinese language. 27 Arabic inscription and more than 200 in the script and almost 200 stars remain unidentifiable. From this collection, from this ceramic collection and especially the Indic inscription on the pottery, there are important information that is figuring the term Ambaric in the Indic language, Indic script. And this finding was provided by Noriko and her teams. And the Ambaric was an ancient port of the Seraph on the Persian Gulf, as you can see on the map in the western Ayuzir in the Persian Gulf, a well-known destination of the maritime trade route during the Tang period. Here is the photo and the image of the Ambaric script. During my study trip, I took many photos and closed study on the portion of the Arabic inscription. And most of the Arabic inscription was painted or written on the base of the Kwantung basins, as you can see in this slide. I brought back the photo back to Singapore, and I have the discussion with Professor Michael Finner, who by the time was still in Singapore, and book Michael Finner, who generously helped me to translate the inscription. And according to him and the inscription, this translation was provided by him. So according to Professor Finner, the inscription was read at Amdada Dadu Muhammad Wa Dafa, which could be translated as Dadu Muhammad and to read this or watch off something. There are many fragments of the basins with this kind of the Arabic inscription. And I think that there are more, many detailed studies needed in the near future. And the Arabic inscriptions are mainly and with a six-pointed or five-pointed star, and the six-pointed star could be interpreted as the Seer of Solomon, an emblem that would be cultures across the medieval and early modern Muslim world. And carried with its magical and talismanic qualities in many contexts. In this collection, I also found many unidentified scribes. I have served this information with many experts around the world, but it's still hard to recognize the script. It could be the ancient Chinese, it could be ancient Japanese, but definitely no final conclusion has been viewed. The ceramic, the Chinese ceramic in this, from this collection is very huge and it's come from, it was originated from many kings in China by the 9th century. The first collection is the Ting and Xing White Grey Ceramic in the Northern China. And this is one of the largest collection in this, in the shipwreck, the Chotan Shipwreck. The second, the second large of the, the second group of the Chinese ceramic is the Changsarware from the Tongkuan Kings in the Hunan province in central China. So previously in Vietnam, in central Vietnam, for example in Kuala Lumpur or in Hoi An, archaeologists has unearthed several pieces of the Changsarware. So for this collection, we could see that the huge collection of the Changsarware has been recovered in central, in Changpa. Here are some other example of the Changsarware. So mostly the Changsarware was the bro, the bro like this. So we can see that many people said this could be influenced from the Junstein. This important object is, this is from the Chotan wreck, it's from the Changsarware and we could see that the, I have a comparative view with the, with the, this is on the left. That's the this, the stone piece, this is made in Iran by the 9th century. So from this could be assumed that this type of this is and ceramics could be produced and provided for the western Asia of the markets. In this collection, we also could see a huge numbers of the Guangdong ceramics, especially the basins and the huge jars from the in southern China. Here are some samples of the Guangdong huge jars with the ceramic, with the Chinese character on their shoulder. And it's very interesting to say that most of the inscription including the Arabic inscription, the Chinese inscription and the Indic inscription were written on the Guangdong wares. For example, this Arabic inscription were written on the Guangdong basins. So we could see that some was living in the Guangdong region. In this collection also have not so have a group of the Yueyue, Yueyue in Zhejiang, Yueyue and Zhejiang province in the central China. And this Yueyue was also an important product for the trade during the ancient time and it also appeared in this collection. Although the number is not as abandoned as the Dingxing and Changsha wares. I also took some photo and the photo some provided by Mr. Lamdu Singh and I put it here. It could be the Indian jars or Indian wares, because we according to the Indian text and Indian documents, we could see that the Indian arteries also appear on the maritime trading ships. And this was brought to the South Asia in the ancient time. For example, this painting on the right show that the Archantha painting shows the board carrying the pause on board. And in this collection we also found a number of the intake and the fragment of this type of the black grey jars. But actually I put the question mark here because maybe later in during the Q&A session, I would like to have more comments and discussion about this black grey pottery. So where could be the next destination of the ship if it was lucky enough to go through the coast of Vietnam. So I sketched out the tentative itinerary of the unfortunate children's ship as follow. So the ship is started the journey from the port of Guangzhou, where the Arab and the Persian trader has firmly established a trading colony by end of the Tang period. And the ship I call at the Hainan court for freshwater and goose before arriving at the court of Champa in the Kuala Lumpur and then the Kuang Ngai province court. Although the children's ship was unfortunately shined off the court of Kuang Ngai roughly 100 kilometers of the two bone atri and the Kuala Lumpur island. I, however, believe that this vessel, this ship had called at either Kuala Lumpur island or the two bone river atri before set sail to the south. So after leaving the, after leaving the court of the Kuala Lumpur or the two bone river, the ship was sank due to either desperately ocean storm or hitting the reef. To let the reason appears to be more reasonable when we note as many shipwrecks had been discovered, discovered off the court of Kuang Ngai in recent years. The ship was not unfortunately sank. Its next destination would probably be the mercantile port of the Nakara Panturanga in the south of Champa before leaving for the Pulau Kondo or the Kondau in the present day name. And after leaving the Sea of Champa, this ship might follow the same itinerary of the contemporary Baleh Tung ship and just my anchor at a mercantile port of Java Sea. The descendants of the Arabic and the Indic inscription written on the recovered ceramics, said that this final detonation of the ship would likely be the Persian Gulf or more precisely the Ambaric in the north of the ancient Sea port if the information from the Indic inscription are accurate. I went back to my previous slide here that my, my, because I said that if the ship was not unfortunately sank, its next detonation would be the Pulau Kondo right in the, the, the yellow color circle. And very, very important to note that in just in just last year, or maybe, yeah, just last year, a new ship rights has been discovered in Kondau or Pulau Kondo or islands. And this is very important information, and it could link with the Jotun shipwreck and the Baleh Tung shipwreck because it's, it's, it's brought along a huge collection of the town periods, objects, especially the, the ceramics like you can see on the slide. And not many people pay attention to this important findings, but when after I received the information from Dr. Huang Ang Duan, and from the Beijing University, I, I, I, to be honest, I has been to this area been just search online and collect the material for my colleagues, but I have a photo and of the, the, the ceramics from the Kondau shipwrecks are provided by Dr. Huang Ang Duan by Dr. and some other friends in southern Vietnam. For example, you can see in this collection, the samples of the thing and seeing where's the white grade thing and seeing where's that's quite similar to the, the Jotun shipwreck in central Vietnam. And these, these provide the, it's good to see an evidence to show that the ship and this collection date, dated back to the ninth century. Here's some sample of the chance I was from the collection. And this type of the, the, the green where's our pot trees is very, and according to pro-chintar shoe, the wares were very high standard, very high standard for exportation and the dating is much is even earlier than the belitung ship. And he, according to pro-chintar shoe, the ship, the shipwreck could be dated to the end of the eighth century or early of the ninth century and could be the earliest, the earliest shipwrecks found in the, in the, in the Soviet Asian seas. So now for, we have the evidence of the three shipwrecks during this seminar, like at first I just got about the Jotun shipwreck and it's itinerary and we have the evidence of the condo shipwreck at the middle point on the, on the American trade route from the China to the Soviet Asia. And from condo or from pro-condo, there are two ways, or maybe there are not only two ways, but there are many other, many, many different ways for the next detonation. For example, one detonation could be the, the Thailand, Thailand graph, that's the from the shipwreck that book just has presented. And the second detonation could be the Java Sea where the belitung shipwreck has now shown up. And from Champa seas and Soviet agencies, the shipwrecks, the ship could sail to the Indian Ocean and the last detonation could be the shipwreck port in the Persian Gulf. And this map shows the connection, the maritime link in the ancient, in the ancient maritime trade route, basing on the shipwrecks and the ceramic dadas. So now I come to my conclusions that Champa, Champa was basing on the ancient Chinese historical takes, Arab, Arabic takes, and now the archeological and shipwreck evidence, we, we, we can see that Champa did engage as closely as possible. And it's also due to the nautical advancement during that period that most of the ships and vessel, they have to sail along the coast, and they have to co-operate with the shipwreck. And thanks to the geographical positions of Champa in the of Champa. And it's also due to the nautical advancement during that period that most of the ships and vessel they have to sail along the coast, and they have to core at the many mercantile ports along the coast. And also Champa provide many important luxury local products for international markets. And Champa, Champa kings and Champa cause, they also have the important policy to work the foreign trade with the international markets. And the prosperity of the, of the trade with the international trader has contributed to the prosperity of the Amarabati region by the 9th and 10th century, which featuring the, the, the Chakyau citadel and Dongzheng Sanctuary and the Mission Sanctuary in Amarabati. And for my, for my presentation, I could conclude that the shipwrecks and the ceramics could play a very important role for rewriting or for reconstructing the maritime history of Champa. We can see that the shipwreck we could have a comparative perspective with the belitung shipwreck and other shipwreck in the region so that we can, we could construct a network of the exchange and trading in the ancient period. And the, the, the trading ceramic for many reasons like from China and India, West India also have to set new light on the history of Champa and the region. So, now, thank you very much for your attention. Thank you very much, Alex. For your presentation is like a wonderful information for me because now I'm looking for understand like Chinese ceramic. I just excavated my aquaculture site in Thailand last year and found many tongue and southern song ceramic in my size. So, thank you, Pook and Alex for your presentations. Yeah, it seems like we need to reconsider the role of Arab towards the Champa and and like China in trade and and and see and we can see a network of trade in the global perspective. So, we have a Q&A from our audience. The first two patient is for Pook and the last one, the two patient, two or three, three patient for Alex. Do you want to read the question to Pook and you answer the question. So, the first question is for Pook. Can you identify the technology technology of early Kulun or Mon or Mon Khmer selling chip, which is mentioned in 54th chapter of Liang Chu chronicles. Yes, thank you for the question. And thank you for reading it out loud. And since I am looking at archaeology as the priority and focus of my study and texts, you know, this has helped me understand what is going on in the past and what I found by studying textual evidence, whether it's Arab Indian or or Chinese. Firstly, I don't have ability and access to the, the primary source like the original text because that's my limitation that I couldn't read or the ancient language. And the second thing was I have to understand the text from what people have already studied and interpreted. Normally, it does textual evidence and historical records cannot use to identify chip technology or or structure in a very technical way like to say what kind of chip is that it would normally just say chip that bow by cordage. And as I presented in the presentation, there's so many kind of, well, at least three kind of fiber cordages in chip structure in the Indian Ocean world. And to identify good learn ship. I think there's been study that relate to large luck. More than stone plank, because less luck has been identified in Southeast Asia, all over Southeast Asia and the number of them are much greater. And that could say, and the distribution of it has been restricted to Southeast Asia, so it's safe to say that last look at Southeast Asian technology. But to identify the chip by the text, I don't think it's, it's easy to do, or even possible to do. Thank you both. I think the question is try to want to want to know the local chip in Southeast Asia for trading. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, the second patient, patient. Do we know anything about the cargo volume of these chips. And have you seen in your work. If these chips are seen systematically. Thank you. Yes, thank you. First, the cargo on the PNS the cargo is really the number of cargo really small, comparing to the Bellatom, which I think is related to where the chips. were located and how it was sunk in the past. And these question related to the environment scene in in the nice entry. That was a study about the, well there was an attempt to reconstruct the environment of that area not particularly the wreck site yet. And the conclusion came as the area would have been the shallow water and it's it's consistent with what where the ship is located now under the mud, and it's still under the water table. The, the the sea. The sea level hasn't changed significantly. So the ship probably be underwater. That's how I understand it and it's located close by the river. And there was a study that the touching river had shipped the course away from the site so probably in the past is was closer. And anyway, the, the site would be reachable at that time, whether it's, I don't know how it's sunk. So we, we haven't looked into that yet. And I likely believe that it's not intentionally beach, but it's still a possibility. If we look closer and we have more evidence to to identify the case. And that related to why the, the, the PNS has so few of cargo left. Yeah, thank you. The next question for Alex. Can you possibly explain, explain on the train of ceramics to the Philippines are the Chinese ceramics, which are found in Philippines ever traded via jump. There is a strong connection with jump go and Philippine go off the 10 to 12 C. Can you expand, expand or explain I think on this trade. Yes, we need to version. Thank you very much for. Okay. Thank you for the question is a tough question from the Leslie pulling right pulling. Actually, a couple months ago, I did a webinar for the Philippine Filipino colleagues. After the invitation by jobber from the from the museum in the Philippine, and I could put the link of the webinar out for you. That's a drop me a message. I could see other link in which during that presentation and this webinar I spent two hours to discuss about the link. There is a great link between Champa and David to the Philippine archipelago's but actually I pay more I paid more attention on the later period during the 15th century and and 16th century. So this for the question is very hard to say that there any connection between Champa and the Philippine during the nine and 10th century. And from the perspective of the ceramic exchange, because, for me, I, my knowledge about the, the, the, the tongue, the tongue and some ceramic in the Philippine is very limited. And even though the Chinese tech also mentioned about the connection of the gold gold exchange between Champa and the boot one by the during the song periods, but for the material for like the ceramic evidence. I could not say anything at the moment, but I'm doing our discussion about their about the root of their sweep by the tongue period. So our, I tend to think that the strip could be served from the southern, southern port of China to Champa and then to the south Asia like Bonero or the Zabasi and, and then from the Zabasi they they say they say not to the Philippine archipelago. Because during the town period, the nautical advancement did not allow that the direct serve from the Champa to Philippine archipelago. Thank you. Thank you. And the next question from Ian McCann for Alex. What do you see as the way forward to investigate the link inscriptions on the base of the post. Thank you. The collection of the ink encryption in the children's reflect I think is very, very important for me, and for many other researchers in studying their history and the, the, the exchange of the Champa with their, with the other part of idea. I personally I did took photo and some personal study on this collection, but it's not the complete study. And I think that I will with the assistant form, the owner of the collection, because we have a very good relationship. I and other researchers have to go back to this collection and, and to do more research on this collection of the inscription. The Nisi Mura project team, they did form a very good team with many expert of the ancient, ancient language from the pan, and they did. You did provide many important information about this collection information from the ancient script like I presented in during and introduced during my presentation. And for a more, more detail study is still needed, but we need time because for me, I was quite busy with the work in Hanoi so I still find her, I still find a suitable period of time to going back to this collection to do more research and because it's a huge very, very huge collection of ceramics and inscription. So we need a good teams and a good teams of knowledgeable experts, and we need a good support, I mean the financial support to do, and to continue this research on this collection. Thanks. Thank you for financial support is the classic problem in accuracy. The next question for Do you think you always so a button or red. If ever done is there a possibility that the way so maybe near a chip yard. Okay, I will read again. Sorry. I think you always so was ever done or right. If ever done is there a possibility that the way so maybe near a chip yard. You are. Um, yeah, that's something I tried to look into as well. But I only could leave assumption and speculation. Related to the answer I had before. The ship is look like it has encountered some unfortunate events and stuck that in my understanding it might have hit the ground and I couldn't go any further so they have to leave the the the ship as the abandonment of the ship would have occurred after the wreckage rather than intentionally get the ship there and and leave it there because also they the the cargo it's so little it's not many cargo left over, but there's still the variety of cargo that left that that could indicate and and also other materials as well. Organic materials seeds and everything. That could be left over of a cargo that hasn't been taken away so if it was intentionally abandoned. The most material would have been recovered, I think, and, and at the moment that area, we hasn't seen or found yet. What are the significant shipwreck we had like 10 kilometers away. If I remember correctly, there has a pieces of lash lock found during the time of excavation, but that's still in the vicinity of the PNS we haven't had anything yet. Well, I mean chip. Thank you for the next patient for book again. For this patient from acne. Most presentation. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for that. I'm wondering why did you put the baritone wreck as Southeast Asian rather than Arabic. Just this outer the general comparison. You made a shipwreck from various area cost Indian Ocean. If I understand the question correctly. I group the Bellatom in Southeast Asia because it is where it is found. And trying to relate the technology to the stone plank technology to outside of Southeast Asia. But actually, I'm not looking at, I might not be clear that I didn't look at the origin or trying to, you know, like changing anything about the conclusion of the Bellatom because the PNS has similar technology, but the condition of the site and the location of the site are giving a different story. So, yeah, I, I. Yeah, just because the PNS the Bellatom is found in Southeast Asia that's why it's grouped there. I think you could buy using the area. Yeah, original. So the next person from Veronica Walker. This person for Alex. Okay, I will read it. Thank you, Alex. For such a true presentation. I know you work on ceramics, but I was wondering if you know of any work done on pot infrastructure in Champa. Do you have any waft peers or mooring system being documented to tie in with books question. Do you think chips is instead of more in Champa. Thank you very much. To be honest, I think that they are very limited resource or limited document in Vietnam at the moment about the port infrastructure during the Champa period. In the later period, I think there are some document I mean that by the 17 or 18th century, during the, the green dynasty in Vietnam. There are more, more information about the port infrastructure, infrastructure, but for the Champa period, I am very, I think that's not much. And even for me, I did many few work in the few in the central Vietnam, searching for the, for the maritime post in, in Champa, but the, the vets, the vets and the remnant as a remnants is not so clear. But we have some, we could point out some important possible, which is possible post like in the Kuala Lumpur, Kuala Lumpur port in, and also could be the Ho An region in, and it's very clear, it's quite more, it's quite clear in the case of the VJR in the T9 port in the southern part of Champa. Part of Champa in the Binh Dinh province. But the details study is still unclear. And one of our colleagues is with Dr. Bui Van Heel, Dr. Bui Van Heel, you know right from the Institute of Archeology also pay attention to this issue and he did some excavation in the, in T9 or in VJR region, but he paid more attention on the later period. And I, I, I don't think that he found any like the, the, the, the reps or the pyres or the brain. And for the question about the, the ship, did they call at the beach instead of the moor. I think I am not sure, because I am not an expert, I'm not, I do not know much about the ship and the ship sailing technique as a ship techniques, and maybe, maybe some other might comment or some other ideas. Yep. So, poker, do you have an idea about the ship? Yes. Well, it's very difficult to say if there is no archaeology besides Lashlak, so I still keep on the keep, you know, like the ship of the region. As a Lashlak rather than saying it's the moor ship or, you know, like trying to have the ethnicity applying to the ship, because in, in the old days is maybe just the ship that people use within the region. It's, it's not about the, the particular ethnicity that use the particular ship. It is a small ship rather than use the trade ship. Yes, it could be, in my perspective, like from, from the technical perspective, it's the ship that's suitable for the function that people use. Okay, the next question from John Mixick. This question for Alex. Okay, he's a person, what artifacts or size from the late eight or early nine century have been found at all land at Gong Dao, I'm not sure how to pronounce that might be connected with up there. Any Chinese or other ceramics? Good evening, Prope John Mixick. I hope you are still fine in Singapore. And as I mentioned during my presentation, my study on the Choughton Shipwreck started with the discussion from with Prope John Mixick in 2012. Thank you very much. And for the question, the information about the Gong Dao Shipwreck, probably the Gong Dao Shipwreck is a very new information in even in Vietnam, and not many documents I mentioned about this there. So that's very limited group of scholars in Vietnam pay attention to this and know about this shipwreck. On the other side, a huge number of the artifacts from this shipwreck has been sandwiched or recovered illegally and brought back to Hong Kong and China. And just why I know I learned from Prope Chin Da Shu from Beijing, that many people inform him about this shipwreck, and then he asked me, and then I, I discussed with many other, with some other Vietnamese expert. I talked about the origins and the location of this shipwreck. But in Gong Dao, Gong Dao is an important island during the maritime trade route during the Tang and the Song period, because it was mentioned many times in the text of the, in the Chinese state and also even the Arabic text. Along with the Gung Dao Cham Island. And so the Gong Dao was an important destination for the ship during the Tang and the Song period. But for the archaeological evidence, I mean that the excavation in the Gong Dao Island. So, so far there's not much, not much information about the excavation. About in this, this area. So maybe in the future, in the future we need to pay more attention and to do some more research on the Gong Dao reason. And in Gong Dao, it's not only one, it's not only one shipwreck, but there are some several shipwreckers, but belong to the later period, like during the Qing period, the Gong Dao, near the Gong Dao seas also found the important collection of the Chinese ceramics. But for this, the Tang and the Song period, this is the first evidence from the ceramics, I think. Okay, thank you. The next question. From Atita Losco. Sorry if I pronounced wrong. Thank you for, thank you both for your great presentations. Question to Alex and Bo. Do you, do you know how did these ancient networks connect to ancient charm freshwater wells network along the coast of Vietnam. Thank you, Tang Roscoe for the question. So I like, I put it in the last slide in the conclusion slide in my presentation, why the white charm power important on the maritime trade network of the idea during the time and during your time periods. The first because of this geographical position in the middle point of the maritime route. The second, the second reason is the, the advancement of the nautical, the development of the nautical advancement during the Tang period, when most of the ship they they share along the coast, not not too far from the, the coastal area, or from the, from the land. So that's why the, the ship, often they set sail from the Guangdong to Hainan to the north and Vietnam and then to the cool out charm and to Pantoranga and then to pull out condo and then pull out condo to other parts of South Asian seas. I mean that during the time period, the duration and the length of the maritime route is shorter than the later period. And because of the could be the due due to the technological issues, that's the ship they have to go not too far from the cold. That's why they, they had they usually cool at their, their, the river at trees of the Champa to get the, the pure, pure water, and to get the rice for their next, for their next next trip to the southern region. That's why the water well in Champa is so important for their for a trader during the Tang period. But for the later period like during the Ming period, because of the development of the nautical and the ship building technique. So maybe there's the, the ship, they could set sail from the Guangdong and then they, they go directly to the VCR and then from VCR to the South Asian seas. So they do, they do not need to cool at or stop at many local post line in the Tang period. That's my opinion about the question. I think I'm thinking about my family business. My family did was a fisherman in a subsoil corn. So in the past, when they sell to everywhere, they have to stop at like a to fire the fresh water every two or three days, something like that. Okay, for the next question. This person from, from, sorry, from our core organizer for SAP seminar. His question is putting aside regions outside Southeast Asia, maybe. How should we see or reconstruct the intra regional trade and cheap building network within Southeast Asia. The second question is how was the historical landscape in the in relation to developing the agency to create or join the wider maritime route. I hope the question makes sense to the panelists. Okay. Who will go to answer this question first. Go ahead. Okay. Yes, I can go for it. I think this is what we are trying to do right to integrate Southeast Asia into a wider perspective of Indian Ocean connections. And that's why the focus is not only within the region versus more like what region is doing as a participant in the wider view. And, and it's also the nature of evidence that we are presenting today that we're focusing on the, the terrain evidence that found in Southeast Asia so it's kind of steer the presentation the presentation and the theme to that. You know, it's all about furnace, but it's actually, in my opinion, this is why we're trying to do like the regional connections to the other regions. And for the historical landscape. This is not easy to answer. For my, for me, the technological perspective from the shipbuilding, we do not have. So we do have more evidence on the on the original local technology which is last like in Southeast Asia that it's really giving a different technology from the PNS that I am looking at so they the historical landscape back then in terms of maritime and through the ship technology, we see the cluster of outside inference and inside region. And that is really, you know, it's not just one region and the other region, it's really linked together. So this is the, the, the scene that I am seeing at the moment. So, Alex, do you have any opinion? It's very tough question, actually. I'm not sure that I totally understand the question. I don't know if you correctly understand the question. And, but yeah, just to think about how should we reconstruct the entire regional trade and the shipbuilding network within Saudi Arabia. But on the, the field of the, the ship technology and the secret, but I think that the potential, the potential of the study in the shipwreck within the region is very huge because in during the recent years we, we have recovered and discovered many shipwrecks in the Saudi agencies, not only in Vietnam but also in Thailand, Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia and Philippine. And that's the findings play a crucial role in understanding the incident part of our region. And because our historical text and historical evidence about the in-char regional trade is not so clear. For example, how the Champa connected with the Philippine or with the southern, with the Indonesian or Malaysian archipelago is not so clear from the historical text. But the evidence from the shipwrecks and the ceramics are provided at the important rules and evidence for studying such a matter. And, and how about the, and about the agency to create or join the wider maritime route. I'm not sure that I, I, I, I, my answer is accurate or not, but yeah, the, the Saudi Asian people, we also play important role in, you know, in, in running and in undertaking and the trading network during the incident part, especially when we look at the Malay, Malay people at the Malay people at the, the middle, middleman or the agency to, to, to, to connect the in-char region trade network with the outsider, with the outside network like with China and especially with the Indian Ocean Networks. Thank you. Can I add a bit? In terms of intra-regional connections, Lashluck is a good example as a ship to technology. If you see my, the, the, the lies before last, I've shown the map where the Lashluck has been found and is actually indicate that intra connection is really busy that time, you know, during the first millennium. And to have the PNS close to the land, I mean, the mainland starts in Asia is also giving the different picture that the Belladong has given. I mean, within that route in, in, in the Gulf of Thailand. And it's supposed to have been believed to be subordinate route and local route. But once we have the zone plan, which we believe to be a foreign technology there, so it's actually linked and relate the mainland starts in Asia with the island starts in Asia and, you know, like the whole process of maritime connections in the Indian Ocean. So it seems, I have, I have my vision when I look at you guys. It seems like the trade route or the ship route sell along the coast. So, two weeks ago, I went to Klong Tom in Gabi province and to, to a lamp pole in Chaya. So, over there, there are many. I think a town. And I also found many like beads, many beads from India, Roman and many like a regions. So, this is possible that in the past, they use the Trang Peninsula trade route for trade like the ship just stopped here in somewhere in southern Thai Peninsula. And then they carry the cargo and products and across to Andaman or Indian Ocean. And then ship to India. Yeah, I definitely agree. You know, when we talked about routes, it doesn't have to be one route. You know, it's can be or everything anywhere possible, any way possible that people connect with people will find a way to connect to each other. You know, in any way they can. So land route coastal route, open sea routes that are operating at the same time, I believe. Yeah. So now it's time that we have to finish. And someone behind you, Alex. Okay, maybe she's hungry. Okay, I have to say that thank you very much for your wonderful and knowledgeable presentations. And today I think I learned many. I coach code work from you. So, thank you very much. And I would like to thank our staff and staff and so is Asian Center of so as as well. And the next. Next webinar. We will announce in our south Facebook page. And in our website, we will let you know soon. Thank you very much, Alex. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.