 joining me, Jem. My name is Nonti Savic and I am a teacher and the second whole space holder and I'm here today talking to Jem Bendo, the founder and leader of DA, which is deep adaptation, and we're here to talk about, you know, what's happening with racism and our prejudices and how can we find ways to connect to each other and create spaces of healing and listening to each other on this topic. And Jem, maybe you can tell us about yourself, who you are and why do you do what you do. Okay, the first bit's easy, the second bit's quite, quite big. Why do I do what I do? I'll come to that. So yeah, I'm a professor of sustainability leadership at the University of Cumbria in the UK. I've been only part-time there for a few years now, since I got into what we now call deep adaptation. So for the last year and a half I've been volunteering to set up the deep adaptation forum, which I've just stepped back from. I'm no longer involved operationally, but we've got a team of four people, over 100 volunteers around the world, and about 15,000 people actively engaged in the platforms online, and there are local groups around the world. And it's a really tough topic. I mean, deep adaptation describes a framework, a way of looking at the future, which is an anticipation of the collapse of modern societies, industrial consumer societies, the one that I live in, you live in, the societies that have supermarkets and have cash machines, and all that kind of way of life. And we anticipate a collapse because of the pace of environmental change, particularly climate change, and how it's damaging the basis of society, for example, agriculture. But we don't want to just run away to the hills with weapons. Instead, we want to look at this trouble in a curious, kind, compassionate, creative way. We want to try and reduce harm. If we can slow it down, and create a softer crash somehow, great. But also, if we can't, we want to learn anyway, about why we got into this mess, and how do we not make it worse? Because many people, I mean, it's already happening, many people are feeling more vulnerable, feeling more distressed, feeling less satisfied about their lives. And that means that they're open to manipulation by people who just want to give them a silly story of safety or a simple story of blame, rather than thinking, well, what have we done? Why has this happened? What can we learn? And how can we try and make it a bit better? So, that's why I do what I do. It's to try and respond to this predicament with a sort of an open mind and an open heart, because I didn't really know how else to respond. Once I reach the conclusion that we can't reform the current modern consumer capitalist system, we've tried for decades, it's not happening. So, massive change is coming, disruption is coming. I wanted to, I wanted to, yeah, find people to talk about it with. And that's what also all these thousands of people in the Deep Adaptation Forum have wanted to do. And so, yeah, that's why I do what I do. I've realized many people who have this awareness then go on a journey similar to mine, which is to ask deep questions about the meaning of life, because suddenly you, if you think normal life is going to collapse, you're much less bothered with trying to have a career progression and save money for the future and impress your friends, colleagues, and family in the old ways that you might have wanted to. Everything can be questioned. And many people are really thinking they want to live in truth and love. And those are just, can seem like trite words, but truth therefore involves listening to multiple perspectives, including those which make you feel a bit, and love totally just means also being open to criticism, open to self-critique, open to whatever you discover, unlearning anything that you might need to unlearn. Which is also why I'm very interested in this topic that you work on, Nanti, and why it's really important for the Deep Adaptation community in general, and then the forum in particular. Yeah, thank you. I mean, you mentioned a lot of things that I very much relate to. I'm very much involved in climate crisis, climate change movements, or if you want to call them environmental movements. And I have been very much active in Europe in different organizations, that's the commoners and also being living in the intentional eco-villages in Europe. And yeah, being from South Africa, I'm an African, I'm a Black woman from Africa who lives in the philosophy of Ubuntu. And for me, it's very, very concerning also to see what the world has come into, the separation that we have, the idea of the illusion, as I believe it is of separation from each other, from other beings in the Earth, and also just from Earth itself, just the belief that we are separate from the Earth itself. I believe this is what has brought us where we are today. And how do we walk back into the center? I call it the center. How do we go back into that center where we are having the awareness of reconnecting to each other, where we're having the awareness of really working with the Earth and respecting the Earth and finding ways if we can, if we still have time. I don't know, that's debatable, I guess. If do we have time or no, this is just the end of it. And my experiences in Europe, when I came to Europe, I found that in the environmental movements mostly, there were a lot of, I call it repeating the patterns, because most of the people who are involved in environmental movements are white, middle class people who have good, who have really good intention to do something about what's happening in the planet. But I also realized that there was repetition of certain patterns, colonial way of thinking, Eurocentric way of thinking, so their approach was not so much of a worldview, even though it was, it's being said, we are saving the planet, and yet it does, it felt like it was not including, it's not including all the voices from the different parts of the world. And for me, this is of deep concern. And also, as I find myself in most places, being one of the few people of color, or being the only person of color, and it concerns me a lot, not only me, of course, it's a topic that is out there of how do we make sure these movements include all the voices? And, I mean, you as a white man, I think you identify as a cease white man, how do you, and you're in a leadership position, so what has been your process, your learning process of, hey, wait a minute, something here is not quite inclusive, if I have to use those words, I don't really like those words, but it's like, yeah, where are the other people? I have a young lady who's white from Switzerland, she says, when I enter a room, the question I ask myself is, who's not here and why they are not here? So, every time I enter a space of environmental activism, it's white people, middle class white people, even, for example, in the eco-village movement, that's an amazing movement that I'm involved in, it's also still in Europe, very white middle class, and the question is, how do we change that? Yeah, yeah, lots of important questions there. I'm also aware now of how some people in the environmental movement can get a bit defensive as well when such questions or critiques are raised, because also sometimes they're made in order to criticise and delegitimize the cause, which I think is therefore a reason for actually, strategically, is why will environmentalists should pay great attention to this, even just for strategic reasons, but I think there are very deep philosophical reasons as well, why, and super practical and personable and emotional reasons why to engage with this. So, where to start? Okay, I'll say this first, because I'm on a journey on racism, anti-racism, coloniality and decolonisation. I've been on a bigger, longer journey around sexism, patriarchy and anti-patriarchy, but yeah, if go back not even a year, about 18 months, and about that, about a year to 18 months, I think someone did say to me, oh, Jenny, you're just racist like the rest of us, and yeah, okay, I don't think they were trying to be helpful, but anyway, my response to that was like, what? It's seen as an insult, rather than as an invitation to look at how I might have unconscious biases of prejudice in me, like other people do, and that rather than looking at that in a way of wither with shame or any defensiveness, but actually think those unconscious biases and prejudices in me are barriers to my fuller, more open connection with other people, and they are barriers to me participating in all the things I say I want to do. I say I want to create a fairer kind of world, even if we're crashing. Well, unconscious biases are barriers to me to participate in a fairer kind of world, so I have changed to see it in the way now that, yeah, there are patterns of racism and racial prejudice in our society, and therefore also in particular movements and groups, and therefore working through us, all of us, we're reproducing various different patterns, and so becoming more aware of that is an opportunity rather than a pain. Now, in the environmental space, I think it's important to recognize that there are people of color and also in leadership positions in environmental groups, environmental movements, so they are there, but also it's still exactly as you say, there is a predominance of white middle class people in Western environmental movements, and deep adaptation, it's questionable whether it is an environmental movement, it's certainly a lot of the people have come to it through that, but some people haven't. So it is an open question about why it is still quite white, and also questions of economics as well, it's still quite middle class, perhaps because of the kinds of people who would have access to my writing, and originally I published my paper for a very particular audience of people involved in management studies and management consulting, and as a British white academic, so it could be because of that. But yeah, I am really happy that as a result of the consultation process earlier this year, the volunteers themselves identified increasing diversity and inclusion, and also looking at the notion of decolonization, some people also like to talk about co-liberation from prejudice, this has been made a topic to support anyone who wants to engage in it in the forum, and I hope people see it as an opportunity that it fits in this idea of trying to be kinder and wiser in the face of collapse, I hope people see it as fitting with the idea of, yeah, how do we not make matters worse as more people feel vulnerable and confused and scared as societies get a bit messed up? So that didn't answer your question on my journey as such, did it? But why I see it as, there are other reasons why I see it as relevant as well. I mean, if we didn't have racism, we couldn't have had colonialism, if we didn't have colonialism, we couldn't have had global capitalism, if we didn't have global capitalism, we couldn't have had rampant, crazy consumerism, and if we didn't have that, we wouldn't have had the ecological and climate crisis and be facing within the sixth mass extinction. So it's kind of a no-brainer to look at racial repression and exploitation as part of the healing around the climate crisis. Yeah, I think you actually did give me a very nice explanation of your journey, and thank you for sharing that. And in this journey, you also talked about that you've been working a lot on patriarchy that has been your focus until the past. And you also just mentioned when somebody did bring this to you, for you it was very uncomfortable. And I mean, I see that a lot, and I see a lot of resistance when white people are being told about their racism, because there is no way if you are white or if you are a person of color that you've escaped the message of either you've internalized superiority or you've internalized inferiority. It's there, it's in our education systems, it's just there. Yeah, I think it's almost like people need stories to help them realize that it doesn't mean you're going to swear at someone because they look different to you. You might even go up to someone and be extra friendly because they look different to you. It may not occur to you that your psychologist who you only ever spoke to on the phone when you meet them, oh, she's black. It's very subtle. And if we pretend it's not there, then we are upholding patterns of behavior without realizing it, which can be problematic and are reported as being problematic by people. So I think it's that people don't, they just don't realize because they assume that racism means being deliberately nasty. Yeah, it's like a personal, it's almost a sense of people, white people, we have to to be clear. It's, it's almost like you're saying, I'm a good person. Oh, I, I have friends who are black. I, my partner is black, my children are half black, half white. I cannot possibly be racist. I have a project in Africa. So you always get these different kinds of, of excuses and, and because people don't realize that it's actually deeply, deeply invaded in us, it's in our cellular level, it's in our psyche, it's in our psychology, it's in everything that we are, it's invaded. As you were, you were saying before, it's in capitalism, it's in the colonia. So it's in our way of consumerism, it's in everything. So how, I mean, I think it's really important that we always highlight that it's not a personal attack. It's not necessary that you're a bad person. If somebody makes you aware of your racism, it's just what is, it's in the system. And I find that sometimes it's really difficult as a person of color as a black woman to bring that message across. And it seems like we need more white people who have awareness of this, and who actually talk about it more. I have a saying that says, dear white people who are loving, caring, and unconsciously racist, because I have white people in my life, 90% of my life is, I spend it with white people who are really loving people, really loving people. Yet they are unconsciously racist. There's a lot of micro and macro aggressions that they are always delivering every day. So for me, hence, I'm doing this work as well, besides holding ceremonies and things. So how do we? Why? It's always a question, yeah, how do we? No, no, what's your why? Why are you, why are you deciding to put yourself into the, the, the fire of unconscious racism of nice people, but who are still racist? Yeah, there's many levels of answering that question. This is, this is where life puts me. This is where I find myself in my life. It seems it's like my, my life journey has constantly, I find myself in the space of white people. And on top of that, of course, it's a choice. I can always get away. But this is the thing, whether we are around white people or not, for us as people of color, racism is affecting us all the time. It's something we talk about all the time. It's something we have awareness of all the time. It's something that decides where are we born? And if, what is the survival rates of the children that are born in that area, which is, you know, segregation. I mean, I was born in Apartheid, South Africa, just to, to mention that. So I know how it's like really to, to live in segregation area, segregated areas, which are designed by the law to separate. So for me, the story of racism is very strong, just like it's strong in, in every person of color. But with white people, I find that it's not something, it's like you can be at the age you are now without, without ever having to think, what does it mean being white? Like really just deeply discussing how you affect the world or how the world affects you as a white person. And what, hmm, yeah, like what power you hold. It's like there's no awareness of that. And with us, there's a very strong awareness of that, of the way we, I always say to people, it's, it's, it's the way I eat, the way I walk, who I am, my, my, my ancestors, how they lived and how they processed their lives was affected by racism, very strongly by corona. So therefore, there is no way of me, a friend asked me, why do you, did you always know that you're going to be teaching about racism? I said, no, I know I'm a teacher and I love to teach and I love to share knowledge. But racism is not something that I, I, I aspire to teach about. It's a necessity. And for me, it's this dream of seeing that we remember that we are a human race that we forgot about that, that coming back into the center of we are a human race and bringing that awareness to the white people in the sense that the idea of separation is an illusion in one level. That's in the spiritual level. But in the everyday physical level that your unconscious racism harms me and it continues to harm me every day. And it continues to harm the people of color that the more you deny it, you are continuously harming people who share this planet with you. So it would be, I think it'd be helpful if, for me, but also anyone who watches us talk, to have a, have an example, like in your experience in European, our environmental movement or eco-village movement of a micro racism or a micro violence or micro aggression where it's, it's, it's reflective of the unconscious racism that then people, because I think a lot of people like me need to still have our attention brought to what is a biased, prejudiced way of thinking or not, or not thinking or behaving or not behaving, you know. I, well, yeah, that's a hard one. It should be easy because it's like so many that have because it's like so many, like, which one do I pick? I think just like a simple, a simple thing as a really, when you have a loving kind friend who really and says, we want to go to Africa to help African people. I mean, just those words. Somebody might say, what's wrong with that? Of course I want to go to Africa to help. And there's so many levels of that is what, what, do, do you have an understanding of why Africa is the way it is in terms of economy, in terms of, you know, cultural, losing their culture, ecological? Do you have the history because the schools in Europe don't teach colonial history, you know, they don't teach the economics of where, you know, how has it impacted the countries that were colonized and how the economy system functions. So if you say from the bottom of your heart and you're saying, I'm going to help Africa, that is racist, that is a microaggression, because you are assuming that African people cannot help themselves. Because of course of what you have seen, and you see the poverty, and you are assuming that really Africa is all about poverty. But the thing to the right thing or should I say a proposal, something that would be good to say would be, how can we work together? How can I go and work together with Africans and see how can I support them? For example, I have access to the economy because I'm European. I'm in Europe. I have easily access to funding. And how can the Africans themselves come up with ideas of how they want to improve their communities? Because we do have ideas. We do know what we want. We have indigenous knowledge systems that are amazing, that are powerful, which then comes back to these indigenous knowledge systems could be very helpful in the environmental movements. So if the white middle class who are involved in the environmental movements actually also involve indigenous people and people of color more and bring them into the table, a lot of knowledge could be shared. So the science and indigenous knowledge could actually create a strong bridge to bring up, I don't want to say solutions, but a new way of living, a new way of maybe finding ways to save the planet. So I think I'm going far now because microaggressions is like so many of them. But this is just one obvious one. You know, the idea of we as white people, we are going somewhere, we're going to the east, we're going to Africa to help Africa, to do a project because we want to help. I think the second one also is I've seen a lot of presentations. There's a lot of presentations that from environmental young people who go, I mean, I go to a lot of conferences and the presentations only say we're talking about global warming or global crisis. And then it will get into, if we don't stop now, if we don't change, we're going to have a certain number of climate refugees. We're going to, this is what's going to be happening. We're going to lose a certain number of animal species, or we've already lost so much. And I always say this is a trigger. This is such a trigger because if you are talking about climate crisis, and yet you are standing there, you're doing a presentation and it's only focusing on what's going to be coming in neuro, you are doing injustice to the places, other places in the world, especially the global south that has already has a high number of climate refugees that already has been experiencing disasters. And the reason for that is because of the lifestyle that we are living in the northern countries. You have this glamorous lifestyle of consumerism, which then goes and affects people who are not living that kind of lifestyle. So I would like to see more presentations like that, that take that responsibility. Yeah, I agree. And I do wonder whether we can move from the discussion of a forthcoming societal collapse to recognition of current or just in the recent past massive disruption and indeed breakdown of what societies with famine mass migration. So the question then becomes can people who anticipate collapse of their own way of life respond in a way which includes solidarity and support. So not just your old fashioned view of send a check to Oxfam, but a bit more solidarity and support with people being affected. And of course, if there is an increase in humanitarian aid for people in disaster zones, then good. But yeah, just at the moment, it's not that big in the conversations I see in the deep adaptation forum. It's not. And I hope it will become more that idea of, yeah, people are being displaced, people are going hungry, people are dying right now because of disasters made worse by climate change. What can we do to help right now? And to see that as very coherent with the broader response to this predicament, that would be would be good. I just thought I'd share with you one story from a friend of mine. He's from Uganda. He grew up in Switzerland. And now he's moved to Australia. And he has two sons. And he used he told me this in order to help me understand racism in those sort of subtle unconscious micro violences. And it was a parent teachers evening and he went to the school and the teacher said we're really happy with your son. He's doing really well. And my friend said, really, I look at these grades and I've looked at your average class grades and I see he's below average. Why is that doing really well? And the teacher said, oh, yeah, but you know, we think he's doing really well. And then so my friend would say, okay, well, you know, I run my own investment fund. I have a master's. His mother, my wife has a PhD and is one of the most senior executives in one of Australia's largest companies. Our son being below average, we can't understand. Are you telling everybody who's below average that they're doing really well? And yes, he was the only black child in the class. And so he was saying, this is the systemic and unconscious racism. Even when that teacher was, yeah, you can see. So, yeah, there's just lower expectations from that teacher being expressed because of the child's colour. And if the child was doing very well, it would be almost like a surprise. It's almost like why people, if you are a black person and you somehow intelligent, if I have to, I don't know, if you're seen as intelligent, whatever intelligent it is, because for me, intelligence is not only academic ways of an indigenous way, but it's almost like a surprise. It's almost like, oh, wow, you are so smart. I'm so surprised that you are so smart. I get that a lot. And I also get a lot of, oh, but you didn't do the Excel sheet very well. So it's always, there's always something. And the thing is for me, the main thing is not to be defensive, to learn to be uncomfortable. For white people, I invite white people to open themselves into the space of being uncomfortable when it comes to the race topic. So how is that working for you, inviting people to be uncomfortable? And I say that because I know that some people, when they see an invitation to do diversity, inclusion, or racial justice training, or decolonisation training, there's a bit of an allergic reaction. It's almost like by the very fact this training exists, it's sort of criticising me. And how in your, do you need to make it invitational? Or is that kind of like an extra aggression? Like the idea that you've got to be worried about white people getting annoyed with you asking people to look at this and be okay with being uncomfortable about it? Or do you try and make it invitational? Or is there a role for people like me to try and help make it invitational? Or what do we do? We're recognising there's that, can be that negative reaction to this topic amongst some white people. So I, it is, it shouldn't be me as a person of colour that is trying to invite white people into the space of race work. What we as people of colour is, we, we will like why people to know and understand that this racism is traumatising for us. And every time we enter into a conversation about racism, we are re-traumatising ourselves, basically. It's extremely, if you have experience, you can even see it in the body language of a person of colour. Sometimes it's shaking and people might think, oh you're being aggressive, but yes, there is anger behind that for sure, but it's also a trauma. So what we need is a call for more white allies. And what does it mean to be a white ally? Is that you are taking the steps of recognising your own internalised racism and you are taking the steps of educating people from your white community about racism and inviting them into the spaces. So therefore, a man like you, who is in a leadership position, for me, it's of highly importance that you take on the responsibility of saying, this is my journey and this is what I'm understanding about racism and this is how it has impact the world and this is how it has impact some people who live with us on this planet and these are the things we can do to make it better or to make it go away. So we need, it's, yeah, I'm having double signals because as a part of me that feels like as a black person of colour, I shouldn't be like, oh we need white people, more white people too, it has to come from your communities. We need more awareness from the white people, more awareness, more talking, more sharing, more vulnerability. I use the word vulnerability because it is a difficult topic and you are going to be uncomfortable and you need to allow yourself to be vulnerable and also what I find to be a challenge is it's very challenging for a white mind to realise that there is something that has been happening in this planet for so many, for about 400 years that they don't know much about because of exactly the segregation. So it's almost like if I'm an academic and I'm white, how can I not have had known this was really happening? Do you know what I mean? It's a sense of there's something happening and I don't know anything about and the person of colour is coming to tell me there's something that's been happening that I don't know anything about. That must be really hard for the system and the psyche to absorb and to understand. And so the invitation for me is to the leadership and also to just an average white person to start the process of being uncomfortable and to teach each other and to hold more spaces to talk about this topic and to teach others how this connects to everything else like you were saying before, to capitalism, to climate crisis. It's a responsibility. So the one thing you said which really I hadn't quite realised before was how talking about racism and therefore for example instances of racism or hearing yet again stories about well I'm not racist or it's not so bad or all of that is traumatising. I hadn't fully appreciated that before and therefore it really does present a challenge for say having racial prejudice and diversity and inclusion and that has a topic with a mixed race gathering because obviously then the stumbles from an unconscious racist pattern will be tough for people of colour in that context. So yeah I can see the challenge there and also then that so it's up to people like me perhaps or not necessarily yeah but white people in general who have reached a point of realising that we are all subconsciously recovering racists should we say. So then to then find out ways of connecting, building bridges, opening doors for more people to come and white people to come and look at that and engage in that conversation. It's for us to think of that rather than to expect people of colour to work out how to be nice and not upset people on this topic. But I'm fairly new to this so I don't really know how you know I don't know the full spectrum of resistances to this. I do know it would be good to make it invitational and for me I'm beginning to see that I can I mean I'm looking forward to your training I'm coming on it and I'm seeing it as another way of removing unconscious barriers inside me barriers to connection. So it's in the similar way also to and removing unconscious rules on my own behaviour. So that's where what I got from say the whole engagement with patriarchy and anti-patriarchy over the last few years. I didn't realise how norms of behaviour expect norms of for example how people show up in groups and who speaks the most and the nature or the content of their utterances. How that is gendered and how that left unquestioned left unbalanced left imbalance means that I'm poorer everyone's poorer and so yeah it's an opportunity to because you become more aware of this it's an opportunity to to get to have more connection with more people whoever they are. Yeah and also I mean learning from other cultures and and it's like you miss out it's not only that racism is bad as it's oppressing people of colour it is also in a way bad for white people because then it separates you from from us people of colour it separates you from all this diversity and all this enrichness um it just separates us as human beings and how rich can we can we be if we are together sharing all this knowledge and all this information together so white people also miss out on engaging in a deep meaningful level with people of other cultures you know because you already enter a space as I am a white person or I'm a white male as you were talking about patriarchy so since you already have this deep understanding we always use that sometimes there the example of sexism that you know you can always take examples from that and apply them into racism because then it will be like in a room uh full of men and women it's the man that will speak more um always having something to say and the women speak less so you can also see in a room full of white people and people of colour it's the white people that will always speak more take up space and feel like they're the ones that have the knowledge and the people of colour silence so it's always also it helps to have the strong background in in in feminism work or patriarchy then you can always somehow make examples actually um from that yeah and apply it to racism work when people are not are failing to understand or connect because it happens people shut down white people shut down during trainings um when you talk about racism in your whole system of white people shuts down because you don't want to hear that's the reaction you freeze and when you freeze your brain doesn't want to receive information but then if you use something that has already somehow been accepted then it's easier for people to absorb and be more open to hear um and I also just want to say the trainings the training that's going to be coming up as well it's just a window it's a it's like opening a window you know and we shouldn't do things I wanted to say um white people should be kind to each other so it's it's not about oh look I've done racism work for the past two years and you are still racist you know pointing fingers at the other white people who are still trying to figure that out um I don't believe in that I believe that we should always have compassion uh and find ways to really hold the spaces for others and um somebody can argue and say we don't have time yes in some level we don't have time just that we don't have time with climate crisis but also pointing fingers doesn't really help it creates more walls and another thing is to know that that these trainings are not enough they're not you can't just say I went to a training or I'm going to another training there has to be a willingness to to really imply I mean apply what you're learning in your personal life in your community um and and make notes for yourself from now on what are the steps that I'm going to take to be a white ally I I think for me part of the white allyship is to look at how we respond to the way identity politics is being used to mobilize the right wing and undermine the left wing and I don't know what we do about that but this is a this is a we're seeing it um wait it's not not just in terms of racial justice and healing but also gender justice and healing and uh it's it's um it's being described by both those two things are being described by the right wing in many countries as sort of an attack on uh our national culture and pride uh our national culture and pride and in a way that is weaponized through facebook ads and is used to um support idiots to gain power and and the argument is that the so-called progressive politics and various social movements end up going around in circles arguing about um are you you know have we have paid enough attention to gender justice racial justice have we paid enough attention to economic inclusion and and so on and and and transgender issues and uh are we ableist and etc etc etc and so I'm I'm interested in how because it does seem that there is this reaction that's being weaponized by the right wing and if that is the case then how do we combat that and and how do we reframe so let's say we I'm talking about the white allies how do white allies reframe their engagement in racial justice and healing in a way that is supportive of and honoring the humanity of all white people anywhere of any economic status um that's something that needs to somehow to me it looks like it needs to be worked on um because otherwise yeah you've got all these angry white men telling telling people to vote for them and um because then they're more proud of their country than the opposition so um if you have any thoughts on how we go about that we white allies go about that I can't I really yeah there's so many levels like it's so complex I always say it's so complex it's it's like this and it's like that and and for me it's it's about what skills do you have or not only skills but what what where can you where do you have the most voice you know where do you have you feel you have the most power where you can influence and if it's politics then you need to be in there and being a white ally and making it making visible all the ugly ways of how systemic racism functions if you are a mom um you know who's the stay stay at home mom where in your circles can you be effective and where in your circles can you be the one that brings that message to your community um so it's it's such endless it's not for us also again people of color to just dish out and say this is what you should be doing a b c d e and f no it's um it's something that you need to figure out on where can you be influential as a white person where do you have the power and how do you choose to use that power especially also when it comes to the injustices um that are happening in the world so we can't always be saying this is what you need to do to be doing because what i might feel the next person of color might say no but i think uh you know the first place that we should be working on is this and everybody has their own opinion and their own so for me it's you take it on yourself and you say i have influence in this area and i'm passionate about this area so i'm going to go in there and and do what i can to be a white ally and and actually influence and use my power to to change things in that area well hopefully uh the deep adaptation forum the deep adaptation wider community can be itself more inclusive diverse but also have more white allies as you say in in wider society and where people will work it out for themselves as you also invite us to um so uh yeah good good to uh yeah i'm i'm i've benefited from the impetus on this topic coming from the members of the forum itself it's been it's certainly a bottom-up initiative as a response to the the strategy dialogue we had with volunteers and others and uh yeah they want to look at this and that's because there's an aspiration for the deep adaptation forum and community to be more than just a club of people who like talking to each other and share common interests they actually want to be relevant in society they want to therefore have an influence and therefore diversity becomes even even more important um yeah thank you and also just to say not to just have diversity for the sake of diversity i have to say that i've been in this the diversity and inclusion group of the da that's just been founded and been working on that and it's important to make sure that when you form this kind of spaces it's not just diversity for the sake of diversity look at us because that also creates even more damage to the people of color that you bring in so it's actually really saying we are really working and we are doing the work and we are looking at ourselves and the personnel level and the group structure that we are actually implementing the change and we want to see change not only in us as individuals but in the whole organization so for me it's been really a beautiful journey to see that the da has created a space of diversity and inclusion and i'm really hoping well so far the people that i've worked with the group that i've worked with i see progress and i and i'm hopeful i'm really hopeful for the future and i hope the people i know there's people from different countries especially the eastern europe who don't very much identify sometimes some of them with colonial and racism work but i'm hoping that there's a window there that's of openness to see how as white people just in this in the spectrum of the whole planet yeah how they move about and how they influence the world and that this topic is also important for them as well something to look at and yeah we are an international group and quite diverse in our holding group and but not very not very diverse racially speaking in in the membership at the moment but uh yeah we'll see how that changes over time and and it's not just that it's also just how do we become more supportive of other communities other movements um that's what i'm better understand them and better engage with them i say we because i'll still be involved even though i've now left the core team i'm not involved in daily operations but i'm one of the 14 holding group members so i sort of will and i'll participate as a volunteer i'll be coming on your course therefore as a volunteer oh wow great not as in not volunteering for you but i mean you know as well not yet anyway thank you jen uh well i don't know i think that's it's for now okay cheers yeah thank you for this uh yeah rich conversation and i hope that we can have i don't know another one also and go deeper maybe into other topics as well and yeah thank you so much good and thank you for thank you it's been uh it's been helpful not just the whole thing's been helpful so not just the hour we've spent together now but also just pondering it over the last last week so since we've chatted and having conversations with other people i i had a long chat over lunch today about racism and unconscious racism and um you know he's from sweden married to a kenyan and just just exploring stuff and it's just really helpful for me and and shows to me how i had i had to de-prioritize this issue in my own life in the last few years um yeah so so thank you for instigating that in me through the da world yeah cheers well thank you thank you for the work you do and for being you take care bye bye bye