 Welcome to Higher Education Matters. I'm Jeb Spalding, Chancellor of the Vermont State Colleges System. And this is a monthly program where we explore the various issues that are of interest in the higher education world. We talk about challenges, opportunities, issues, and we have a variety of guests on that help us to explore those. Today, we're happy to welcome Tom Cheney, who is the Director of 75 by 2025, VT. 70 by 2025. What did I say? 75. Okay. Okay. Yeah. 70 by 2025. What is that, by the way? What does it mean, Tom? So what it means is that there's a state goal to have 70% of Vermonters have some sort of continued education after high school, whether it's a degree or some sort of credential by 2025. Okay. And we can get into more of kind of how we do it. Yeah. So 70% is the percentage of people that we want to do it in 2025 is when we want to have it done by. All right. Okay. And we'll talk a little bit about why that's so important. In fact, we probably ought to start there, but I would say that since this is June and it's the month where students in Vermont graduate from high school, our viewers might be interested to know that around 2,500 high school graduates have no plans for any post-secondary education at all. And that is, I think, a real problem for their economic prospects and also for the state of Vermont's future. And your effort is part of that, is much bigger than that. But that issue right there is in terms of trying to get more students to go on to post-secondary education has got to be a high priority issue for the state of Vermont. Absolutely is. And when you look at that, those students who don't have a plan, what it means out of the class of 2018 is that about 60%, probably just under 60% of them will continue on to post-secondary education this fall in some shape, shape, form, or way. But that means that about 40% aren't. And when we actually poll seniors around this time of year, 70% of them say they'll go. They actually lose 10% of seniors or new graduates, I suppose, between now and the fall, those who actually had some plans, but just for some reason or another, couldn't actually get across the finish line and walk into their first class. And do we have any ideas as to why that happens? With 70% say they're going, only 60 or a little less actually go, what changed? You know, I think that the verdict's still out, but I think a number of potential things. One is some people may simply over-report, say I would like to, but haven't taken the necessary steps to do so prior to graduating. There's a lot of steps you have to take between June and August, September when you go to school, whether that's figuring out your financial aid or figuring out where you're going to live and kind of the housing situation, whether it's on campus or off campus, a variety of different steps you have to take that can hold people up. Whether they come into financial hurdles or for the first time, you're on your own in figuring out your education path. You don't have the guidance counselor right down the hall to help you. So there are a number of reasons. You know, a couple of interesting sort of additions to that is that it's around 60% go on. If you look at it by socioeconomic status, the lower income for monitors is more like 40% are going and 60% aren't going. So really those that could probably use the help in terms of upward mobility are going in significantly less numbers than the upper income levels. That doesn't bode well for trying to address an inequality problem. There's a real equity issue. Even when you look at those who come from whether their parents went to post-secondary education of some sort or they have more financial security in their homes, it still is around 60%. So that you still isn't where we want it to be. But then you look at those who didn't have parents who went to post-secondary education or come from homes who are low income families. The rates are much, much lower. And that's just to continue on to college or training. But that's not even to complete. You look at the completion numbers and it tells them even more. It does. It does. And actually the viewers might be interested to know. I know it's a little bit off topic, but it's related in a way that actually, whereas Vermont has one of the highest high school graduation rates in the country. And whereas on a relative basis, sure, there are too many students that are graduating from high school not ready for college and work. But compared to the rest of the country, we do pretty well there, too. When it comes to continuation on to college, we have the lowest continuation rate in New England and very lackluster nationally. So we obviously have some room for improvement. Another program we could talk about, well, what are all the ways we're addressing that, that's certainly a priority for the Vermont State Colleges as the de facto extension of the public school system into the post-secondary years. We have a responsibility to try to help more for moderates get some post-secondary education. But Tom, I'm interested, with 70 by 2025, why is that so important to the state of Vermont? So maybe we'll go back to 2015, 2016, and I know, Jeb, you were a part of a lot of these conversations as the new chancellor at the time of the state colleges. And there was this kind of conversation among stakeholders between the pre-K to 12 community, the higher education and training community, employers, government, and the kind of non-profit civic groups, as well as philanthropists in the state. And they said, okay, we know we have a problem here. And we know that we don't have the education levels that we really need to ensure that employers have a really skilled workforce. And we also know, in addition to kind of that economic side, there's a real strong economic argument. We need 66%, according to Georgetown, Center for Education and the workforce, something like that. We need 66% of Vermonters to have some sort of post-secondary education or training in order to meet our workforce needs. So that kind of drives one angle. The other angle is that we know that if you have post-secondary education, you're going to be more successful in terms of financial security, in terms of contributing, having more capacity to contribute to your communities. And those are things and really strong values that we have as Vermonters. And then there's all these other pieces around government and less, if you're more financially stable, there's going to be less need to kind of tap into some state resources. So there's a lot of different interests here, whether it's the employer wanting a skilled workforce, whether it's the employee wanting to have a really great life and be able to focus on family. And then whether it's kind of more broadly the state interest in terms of having a strong economy and a kind of vibrant civic vitality. Yeah, so you mentioned the Georgetown Center there. They also did a study a couple of years ago that said that I think it was 99% of the new jobs created since the Great Recession, which was, I mean, I hate to say it, it's coming on 10 years ago now. But 99% of the jobs required some level of post-secondary education, and I think 70% a bachelor's degree. So the fact that we have 40% of the high school graduates not going on, and an awful lot of adult for monitors without some level of post-secondary education is a real problem economically for them as individuals. And you made that point. And you also made the point, Tom, that it's not just an economic argument. I mean, it is, yes, if there are all those things that show well, if you have an associate's degree or a bachelor's degree or a certificate, here's how much on average you might expect to make more than the others. And those are significant numbers. But you mentioned that they also, people that have post-secondary education tend to participate in their local communities more. It's actually, they also happen to have better health outcomes. And they live longer. And they don't get in trouble with the law as much. There are exceptions to that. But if you want your children or grandchildren to actually be healthier, have better economic prospects, don't get in trouble with the law, and live longer, some level of post-secondary education is very important to them. So from an individual perspective, very, very important. You hear the governor and all, I mean, all governors recently have talked about they run into employers that can't fill their, the open positions because people aren't adequately trained. Is that part of what we're trying to address here? Yeah, absolutely. I think that was a big push from the employer community in this conversation. I kind of kick-started it. And you're right, when I first started hearing that refrain from employers, I thought I was newly graduated and thought, well, I don't know about that. The truth is, there are plenty of opportunities out there for Vermonters, not in every single field, but in many, many fields. And so we've got to figure out what training is required for those fields and how do we get as many Vermonters as possible in those career pathways and education pathways to ensure that we can fill those. So I sort of should have said at the top, if people during this program will say it again at the end, but I should have said it at the top, if people want to find out more about 70 by 2025 VT, how would they do that, Tom? Yeah, so we have a website that's continuing to be updated and we'll have some major updates to it later this year, but it's 70by 2025 VT.org, so 70 and then an X, 2025 VT.org. Okay, or they can even probably just Google 70 by 2025 VT and they'd get there. Yeah, and I think that's exciting. There are opportunities, you have working groups and other things like that, so if there's people that want to get involved to be helpful, they can do that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, that sounds great. So we've talked a little bit about a large percentage of high school graduates not going on to college. I also have in the back of my mind, and I was hoping you could clarify for me, that even if we got all of the students that are graduating from high school to go on to college or to some apprenticeship or get some kind of a credential, that wouldn't really fill the need, is that right? So what does that mean? What's the significance of that? Yeah, we've talked a lot about the focus on the pre-K to 12 and the continuation rates and the completion rates of those more, which are often called the more traditional pathways for students. But it's really important that we get adults back into the system. And adult could be as young as 18, but someone who just didn't go on to post-secondary education directly from high school. And we ought to make sure we get them back into the system because there's about, right now, 60% of, or it's not 60%, 60,000 Vermonters who have some college but no degree. And then there's a much larger, I would say that number's probably much higher in terms of those that maybe started some sort of credential program as well. So there's a lot of people that began school but didn't finish it. And so we want to make sure we get them back into the system and make sure that they have the skills they need to be successful in their career, but also to retool as kind of the economy changes and as the workforce demands change. Well, you know, I mean, the Vermont State College system wants to be and is. And there are several people that either are at some of our colleges or at the system level that participate with this effort. And it's totally aligned with our strategic priorities. I mean, you know, it's a tough time to be in the college business these days. And people sort of hear about that in the news and read it in the paper but probably don't realize that across the whole country, the smaller, rural, tuition-dependent residential colleges are under a great deal of pressure. And we have six strategic priorities to address those challenges. And they are really aligned with what you're about. So for example, you know, we want to work with you and other partners to increase the number of high school graduates going on to college and then succeeding, you know, staying there and actually graduating. Because you kind of mentioned earlier that, I mean, it's, you know, not enough go, but even more, you know, once they get there, too many of them don't make it out the other end. So both of those are really important to us. Also, you know, we are all about serving adults more. You know, it's our third strategic priority is to actually serve the not the typical high school graduate going on full time. But people that actually, maybe they might be 22, 23, 24 and didn't go. And now they realize they need something and maybe they're not ready for a degree. But, you know, an actual industry recognized credential or some kind of meaningful certificate. So, you know, you see CCV, Community College of Vermont, one of our colleges within the system developing certificate programs and bookkeeping and, you know, medical assistance and certified production technician. We have hospitality credentials up at Northern Vermont University, Linden. Vermont Technical College doing all kinds of certificates. I hope that's helpful for what you guys are all about. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we should give credit where credit's due. When we talk about how 70 by 2025 was created, it was no small part due to your leadership and the leadership of the state colleges to make this not just something that you take on in your campuses, which is crucial, but something you say, we need everyone at the table to handle this. This is a Vermont issue. This is a state issue that we have to tackle at every single level. And so the leadership of the state colleges, of VSAC, of the McClure Foundation and many, many other organizations, including the University of Vermont and the independent colleges and many, many employers, you know, really drove this. And so a big thanks to the state colleges. And you're modeling what every partner really needs to do, which is to take the priorities of 70 by 2025 and say, how can we in our way contribute to this? And so for an employer, for example, that might be saying, how are we ensuring that our workforce has continued opportunity to get further training, training that can support us here at our business, but also training that supports the well-being of our workforce, whether they stay with us or they don't. And so that's, I think, a role that employers can take on. I think that government, what policies can we shape to really support the efforts of the state colleges, support the efforts of the employers, to make sure that we do have a skilled workforce. So there's a lot of opportunities, you know, like you said, for partners to kind of model the right behaviors to help move this forward. And in your experience, now you've been the director of 70 by 2025 VT for a year or so, Tom? Yeah, yeah, it's been a little bit over a year. And in your experience, do you think that we're making any progress in terms of getting, you know, the community at large, the state of Vermont employer, the civic community, the private individuals to understand the importance of this effort or, you know, how do we do that? Yeah, you know, I think we are. It's not an easy conversation to have. I think it's one that is complicated, multifaceted. But at the same time, it's pretty simple. We want to have a strong economy. We want to have strong communities. And education is one way to do that. There's many others, you know, as you mentioned, whether it's focusing on health care or affordable housing or a lot of. But one area where we and our partners can make a difference is around educational levels. And so I actually think it's a really good time. And we have a really good climate built around it right now and have a lot of hope. We have a governor who has made this one of his top priorities. He was at our launch event last fall. And as you were, I believe, and, you know, that's really tremendous. And his point is we got to go on to some sort of post-secondary education, but it isn't necessarily college. It might be the credentials that you talked about that are offered at the state colleges or at a private college or at the University of Vermont or through a CTE, adult program at the CTE or even on the K-12 site through the CTE programs, the career and technical education programs. And I think that that's a really important message. And having the governor of the state of Vermont say that is really valuable and having the partnership of his administration has been great. And then the employer community says, you know, like I said for many, many, and you noted for many, many years, they've been saying we need more skilled labor. They're saying we've got to do it now. And there's a partnership based out of the Vermont Business Roundtable called the Talent Pipeline Management Project that is actually bringing on employers and saying, OK, what do you need? Let's kind of work backwards. What do you need in terms of skills for the jobs that you need to fill? And let's map a pathway here. And let's bring in the educators to say, how can we do this together? And it's so far shown pretty successful. So there's a lot of efforts out there that I think have set the climate for some real action. And I wondered about that because, you know, sometimes you get, you know, you might have, I don't know if there's unanimity in terms of what it is that they need at the employer level. I mean, I guess some of its soft skills, like, you know, even just showing up for work and, you know, following instructions and working as a team and stuff like that. But sometimes it's like, OK, I want specific skills. Is there some kind of congruence or coming together? And what is it that we need to do as a state? Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. There's no simple answer to that. And I think everyone will give a slightly different answer. But but mine is, yeah, we hear more than ever that the soft, that what people call the soft skills are most important. Showing up on on time, you know, putting in a good days, days work, understanding how to kind of work in an office or on a work site or whatever it might be. And that that's really, really important and that employers feel like that's missing in kind of the workforce training side of things. So that's one thing. And I feel like that's one thing that we can do. We can we can figure out how to crack that nut. But I do think that there's that you make a strong point about every employer is a little bit different. Sometimes it's they think they're more different than they are. But in a lot of cases, you know, this this manufacturing plant does things a little slightly different than this one. And so it's hard to kind of align what are those workforce needs, the training needs, truly. And that's a challenge. But I think one that with like the talent pipeline management where they're bringing in multiple employers to take on the construction trades, for example, or health care or advanced manufacturing, we'll try to say, OK, where are the areas where we can combine our efforts and get a certain base? And then one particular employer might need to go do a little bit more training. Yeah. And I mean, within the state colleges system. Certainly Community College, Vermont Technical College and actually Northern Vermont University and Castleton, too, are starting to work directly with employers to put together programs that serve their needs. And we can we can do both, you know, sort of generically get more people prepared with all the hard and soft skills, but also focus in with specific employers. And, you know, we see that as part of our future. I mean, you know, what we know is that just from a self interest perspective in the Vermont State College system that, you know, not only are there not enough of the high school, a large, large enough percentage of graduates going on to college, but there are just fewer of them. And there are 25 percent fewer students in 12th grade this year, this graduation year than there were 10 years ago. And that's consistent across, you know, Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire and a lot of rural, you know, America and Pennsylvania and Ohio and other places. So, you know, the numbers are getting smaller. We're going to continue to provide the high quality liberal arts experience at Castleton and Northern Vermont University, combined with professional training and internships and then Community College and Vermont Tech. So we're going to continue to serve the typical kind of students we have and give them a great experience, but also, you know, we need to actually serve that greater population you're talking about. And working with employers, you know, finding out, you know, okay, we know that the health area, allied health, nursing, occupational therapy, radiology, all those are such important areas. We need to be developing programs in those that are delivered in flexible formats, online, weekends and so forth to make sure that we can serve that non-typical student and are doing that as much as we can. I hope others are too. I think that's a really great point. And we're seeing the shift nationally as well. And part of it's due to technology, but part of it's more of an awareness to say, we've got to meet students where they are. And so, you know, you've got that opportunity when you're a senior where you may be able to go straight in to some sort of post-secondary education or training. But if you've got a family or a job or, you know, need to have a steady stream of income, it's much more difficult to kind of find the right pathway for you. And so, you know, the state colleges are doing a great job. So Champlain College is another great example of, and there's many more in the state where the higher education institution is saying, how do we meet our students where they are? How do we make sure that we're providing them with the flexibility to pursue the degree in a way that makes sense for them or their credential? And also to give credit for prior learning. And I think one real success story comes out of the state colleges with prior learning assessments. You can actually come in to one of your schools and say, hey, look at all this experience I have. And can you help me to turn that into some credits towards a degree or a credential? And I think that that's a tremendous opportunity so that folks understand and that we value the experience that you walk in the door with to one of our institutions. So we mentioned your website. We probably ought to mention the website of the Vermont State Colleges System 2. And if you were to go to our website, you would quickly find how you can get to Castleton Community College of Vermont, North Vermont University of Vermont Technical College and look up those not only degree programs but certificate programs. So if you go to vsc.edu, you can easily get to all those. And your website again is? 70 by 2025vt.org. And we're on Facebook and Twitter. Oh, good. What will people find if they go to your website? I mean, what kind of resources would they find at your website, Tom? So on our website, you'll learn a little bit more about our initiative areas of focus. And some resources to other, you know, kind of opportunities to pursue education. And we're going to build that out to have more and more resources for prospective students, both youth and adults. And, you know, what are you thinking in order to achieve the goal 70% and just to re-emphasize? People say that's an awful lot. But we're not talking about just, you know, bachelor's, master's, associate's degrees. We're talking about apprenticeships. All kinds of, I don't know, what do you call it, meaningful post-secondary credential or something like that? Yeah. Yeah, it's called something different. We call it credential value. But it's called something different in every state. Okay, credential value. So 70%. And, you know, we're talking another seven years. What do we need to do to actually get there, Tom? Yeah. Well, jeez, we could go on for another half hour. Easy. First, we might just start by saying, where are we now? And we're at about 47% of Vermonters have a degree of any form. And then we think it's much more difficult to track. But somewhere between 5% and 10% of Vermonters have a credential. So at best, we're somewhere around 55%. And we need to get that additional 15% by 2025. And where we're going to look is making sure that youth and adults have access to post-secondary education, that we break down the barriers to access whatever type of training that they want. And also that we make sure that they get on the right track in the first place so that we don't pursue something that ends up not being the right thing and then they burn some money and some time. Making sure that we do that for both youth and adults is really, really important. It's changing the public conversation through things like this to say, it's not too late for adults to get back into it. And you got to continue. There isn't a choice for high schoolers. You really have to continue. You're not done yet after high school. And then it's bringing the employers together with the higher education community. So since we're talking to we don't know who, we could be talking to grandparents, we could be talking to parents, we could be talking to students. It is important to reemphasize again what we've just said is that, look, don't think that we're talking about you have to get a bachelor's degree. It could be some other meaningful credential. More and more what we're doing is within the community college and Vermont Tech and Northern Vermont University and Castleton is actually having some shorter form credentials, credentials of value. We are credit bearing courses within it. So if you want to continue on later to get your degree, you've already got a good foundation. And I often find people that say that, you know, they really, I mean, we do have an affordability problem and Vermont Student Assistance Corporation is all about helping people, you know, find out, understand how important it is to go to college, how to get there, how they can finance it and all like that. I really always like to emphasize, although it's expensive, there are ways to reduce your cost to go on to college. So if you're a grandparent, parent or student, don't let the sticker price of education discourage you from looking into it because if you plan ahead and get creative, there are ways you can lower your cost. So we want to make sure people do continue. Now, Tom, we're going to run out of time pretty soon. I'm kind of curious, you know, why was this an important initiative for Tom Cheney to get involved with? Yeah. Well, I come from a family of educators. My mom's a teacher. My grandmothers were teachers. My grandfather was a superintendent and worked in the school or the college of education and social services at the University of Vermont for many years. So education was always around me and I understood from a very young age the value of it and was always active in school. And so various jobs and government led me to have more opportunity to work in the education policy side and then the workforce policy side when I was the commissioner deputy commissioner of the Department of Human Resources at the state and seeing it from an employer's perspective. Well, I'm really glad you're doing it. It is an absolutely critical goal for the state of Vermont to have and it's critical that we get there. Definitely please pass on our thanks to Scott Giles, the CEO of the Vermont Student Assistance Corporation for taking this initiative and, you know, giving it life and this Vermont state college system wants to do everything we can, Tom, to make sure that we are successful. Our mission and your mission are totally aligned. It's critical and we will get there together. Well thanks, your great partner. All right. Thanks for having me on. All right. 70 by 2025, vt.org. Viewers, I want to thank you for tuning in for this edition of Higher Education Matters. You can see it on cable stations around the state of Vermont and I want to give special thanks to ORCA for allowing us to use their studios to produce this program. Thanks for tuning in.