 He's called to order glad to see you here this evening. Thank you for showing up Alderman graph would you call the roll, please? Manny excused honeymoon Stepan excused Susha 14 present Thank you, Alderman graph a quorum is present And I need someone to make a motion to approve of the minutes of August 1. Thank you We do need to make a slight change on that Pension that the price of the city's industrial parkland is $22,000 an acre not 25 So that correction will be put in on the minutes of the committee of the whole of August 1 Any further discussion about the minutes? All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye opposed motion carries Number three on our agenda municipal court information Alderman Sarah Thank You madam chair I've asked that some of the committee members if they're present I'd like to make a motion to open up the floor those who are involved in the study that formulated this study second All those in favor any discussion on opening the floor to receive information about the municipal court Yes, Alderman graph is it for anybody from the the committee that was there or Are there some more people that you're expecting just the committee members if any are present who would like to speak Any further discussion on the motion to open the floor to the committee members of the municipal court regarding information For the Alderman who weren't in on the municipal court information first time round Which I think if I have this correct for the Alderman Kittleson Alderman Eldenberg Alderman Davis Alderman Susha and Alderman Ratke All those in favor signify by saying aye Any opposed? Yes, yes Motion passes. I see mr. Warner is here. I bet you're going to give us some information That would be me. You need you don't need my address. We don't have a city clerk. Yes, please 2327 East Shelley court in Sheboygan, Wisconsin Mike Warner madam chairman common counsel and the viewing public Good evening to all of you and it is a pleasure to be here to talk to you about this I guess I wish to speak to you about the city's municipal court for several reasons as I watched the recent council meeting I Was surprised to hear statements that clearly are contrary to the facts regarding municipal courts across the state of, Wisconsin The miss municipal court committee was formed to investigate the feasibility of Forming such court in the city of Sheboygan The committee had seven members three city residents attorney david gas Mr. Ron Erlang and mr. Ronald Beenan Along with that was the city's court services officer The city attorney former alderman bill wangaman and myself Early on the committee was very very skeptical Skeptical about the creation of a municipal court so it set up a five-step process That put the burden of their decision on facts and not on opinion and To take politics out of play to make sure that a sound decision was made The five steps are checks and balances where as follows delivery of justice financial Physical costs for the court administration of the court and the impact on the current circuit court system We felt that all those issues were very important if we were going to make a recommendation to the common council To move forward with the municipal court For number one the delivery of justice one of the questions was would it improve remain the same or be better the conclusion was that Justice would be improved as municipal cases would be heard and addressed in a more timely manner Than any circuit court Financial would the system support itself provide income to the city Conclusion financially the system will sustain itself And provide income to the city each year physical costs What would it cost to set up the court and to operate the court? The conclusion of the committee was the physical cost to establish the court will be paid for in the first year of operation That's the first full 12 month period of operation take any 12 months starting from Beginning of any month and that's how this pro forma budget was set up Administration makeup of the system the judge the staff The conclusion of the court committee was that the court should have a part-time judge. I believe it was $18,000 a year in a full-time court clerk and also a part-time clerk position The judge and clerk would be hired at the onset with a part-time position being filled only if needed part of our belief was that if we went to a Software system that use the county's current system to obtain a lot of information We wouldn't need that part-time clerk And that was recommended the next one was impact on a current circuit court system Positive and negatives for the county court system and positive and negatives for the city of Sheboygan What would those be the circuit court would benefit from the establishment of a municipal court in the city of Sheboygan? By removing 7,000 cases from their caseload Which would help them provide better service and become more efficient of that 7,000 only about 1,500 actually come to trial in a municipal court But you still have to deal with them all in one form or another The benefits to the city outweigh any negatives providing quicker response to city ordinance violations Court code violations and resolution of municipal municipal issues in a more timely fashion Fines would decrease and the city would keep a larger portion of those fines. That's a fact The system would be self-supporting and would benefit the city budget in Each of these steps the committee's conclusion was that the establishment of a municipal court in the city of Sheboygan Would be in the best interest of the city its taxpayers landowners in all city residents a Conclusion that was not based on politics Emotion or turf but sound facts The year-long study surveyed and interviewed dozens of existing municipal courts across the state We talked to Plymouth Sheboygan Falls and Kohler, which all have established municipal courts and Asked them to join in with us either as a joint system Or to share some of the common things such as court software, which I mentioned earlier that would tie in with the present countywide crime reporting system a Real shared service in function and costs for all of those involved After watching the common council meeting or an attempt to rescind the municipal court was made It occurred to me that many may be making their decision based solely on Emotion or lack of knowledge I Would ask that each of you obtain a copy of the committee's report and Talk to some of those involved in that committee to find out what the facts are communities across Wisconsin Are creating municipal courts and for good reason? Not because the circuit courts are at fault But because the system is clogged and inefficient in dealing With local ordinance violations and issues over half of all communities in Wisconsin have municipal courts Your question to yourself should be why? Why do over half the communities in the state of Wisconsin now have municipal courts? Why the answer is because municipal courts work a? The municipal court will help improve the residential areas that need more attention Especially those areas where the poorest of the poor live It will levy fines that are less Lowering them from a hundred and eighty dollars to a hundred and two dollars saving residents money Every area that a municipal court touches will be better served in the county court system Can concentrate on the higher level crimes, which it is designed to deal with I? Don't have too many more pages But this is something we worked on for a long time You recently accepted a settlement the settlement in the Matlin case that was a fraction of what was owed Although I am not going to claim that a municipal court would have solved that problem completely It may have helped to some extent And I ask each of you to consider what is best for the city of Sheboygan her people Homeowners renters and all taxpayers Perhaps you need to have your law committee review the documents in depth that came from the special municipal court committee and bring back their findings I am convinced that if someone looks at the facts They will come to the same conclusion that's a special municipal court committee did and The council can then make an informed decision to move the municipal court forward as did the previous council Think city of Sheboygan's best interests think facts And if you do that you cannot come to another conclusion, but to move the municipal court forward and I thank you for your time Thank You mr. Warner mr. Warner is there a date on that so in case some of these new alderman asked for a copy of that on that Information that you just would have it, but I think we brought that in last summer I summer of 2004. It's just this report dated September 27th probably it was due by October It was due by October, so thank you Alderman Sarada, thank you, madam chair now. I have some questions that I would like to address to Chuck Adams I've asked him to be here tonight, so he could share that information with all of us Yes, oh, I'm sorry Mr.. Beenan, yes, please you are on the committee Yes, I was Thank you. I'm sorry. I Appreciate the opportunity to speak to all of you. I'm going to speak up. I think Mike did a fine job of Yes, oh, I'm sorry Ron Beenan 525 South 28th Street in Sheboygan I think Mike did a fine job of defining what the committee Found to be the facts of the municipal court I just want to take an opportunity to speak on behalf of the the citizen members of that committee and that is that in fact There were a few of us who came in skeptical There weren't too many people who came into this committee who started this committee who really believed or really knew much about what a municipal court was and Our findings were when I mean when we left this committee in October September October I think the people that were on his committee felt that we had done a good job We felt we had been thorough we felt confident that this would work for the city We felt confident that that the city would Pursue this municipal court The more the most persuasive arguments were from other communities who had establishment Municipal courts and had proven to be not only not only are they working not only are they good for the citizens not only is it good for The community, but they have proven to be profitable and increase the the revenue to the city very few communities communities had any objection to Running the municipal courts very few no communities regretted starting the municipal court And I think the only one complaint was that perhaps the selection of the judge Maybe their process for selecting a judge efforts was not Proper or they didn't do a good job of that and they had a little problem there But I think of all the communities that we that we surveyed the responses were were unbelievable I never expected to have to read that much But almost every community that we sent that we requested information from that had him in this report Reported back to us and we were convinced by their testimony and by what we found out and by what we looked into for cost that this would be profitable and and advantageous for the for the citizens of this community and Speaking on behalf if I may of the of the rest of the members we felt confident that we did a very good job We did everything that was needed to be done We got it done in a timely manner and we came out with a positive attitude about the community Municipal court and and we think that it ought to be brought forward and and moved on Thank you, Mr. Bean, and I think your committee worked very hard Mr. Chuck Adams, would you like to address us and give us some information? Thank You madam chair. I just have three questions for you Chuck the first one being do you feel a city? Municipal court would be more expedient in terms of time scheduling when cases are actually heard and more Receptive to city issues given that only city ordinances and traffic cases would be heard not necessarily competing against the circuit court criminal cases. I think the answer to that is is probably yes as far as Scheduling goes I think it's pretty clear that They try hard over in the circuit court to get our cases done quickly But it just doesn't always happen It's an example of that next week I've got a jury trial going on a drunk driving case that occurred in 2002 More than three years ago and that's beyond the norm But oftentimes especially with jury trials it can take a long long time to get those cases heard and the reason for that primarily is that City cases are not a priority in the circuit court system And it's not because they don't want to treat it as a priority It's just simply because they have to treat other things criminal cases as a higher priority People have a right to speedy trial in criminal cases and so the city cases Do take a lower priority? As far as it goes with whether there'll be more attention paid Again, I don't think there's any Intention on the part of the circuit court or the judges or the folks in the circuit court system to pay less attention to to city cases, but I think what you're going to have is is instead of City cases speeding tickets and and building code cases and fire code cases Just being a small part of a huge caseload that includes much more important things You'll have a smaller court that is dealing only with those kinds of things And we'll probably have a little more expertise and in those kinds of things and have a little better Connection with what's going on I've always thought all along that really The primary issue as to whether a municipal court would be a good thing or not Is not so much the finances. I think I think the study committee Makes that pretty clear the finances will be good But it's whether we have a good judge who You know, we'll do a good job as a judge as it is with the circuit court It's the same thing with the municipal court And so I've always thought that the thing we ought to be focusing on is making sure we do a good job Selecting a judge and coming up with a way of selecting the judge Thank you Chuck Adams. I did one question. You said you're you're waiting to do a Driving problem from 2002 and it's a jury thing. I have a jury trial scheduled And for a case that occurred in 2002 which wouldn't be a municipal court anyway Well, it would start in municipal court It wouldn't be heard as a jury trial in municipal court But what would happen then is that that case if the person wanted to jury trial right away They could file to have it sent to municipal court or they could hear it in municipal court first. Thank you I understand. All right. Go ahead Alderman Serda You had two more questions, right? Regarding this question. Yes, Alderman. If I may Right now when you when you go to court, is it before the family court commissioner or the intertake judge? Well, I don't appear in front of the the court commissioner The way the process works is with with city cases the initial Court date is in front of the court commissioner on all but some of the juvenile cases And she handles just sort of the intake court I don't appear because there's no necessity to have an attorney there Someone from the police department appears and just simply takes notes of was there a guilty plea or a not guilty plea There's not a guilty plea Or not guilty then it moves on then it moves on and we hold pretrial conferences and and in court Is that with the intake judge or with the circuit court check? I know they're the same but and they all take turns that right the way it works is there's an intake schedule Each of the five judges takes a period of time every six weeks that changes and each case is then heard in front of The judge who's on intake during the time that that case enters the system Alderman Meyer Thank you. I just have a quick question. How much is the startup cost to this court? And where is the money going to come from? I Haven't been dealing with that. You'll have to look at the the documents from the committee I actually I didn't I was not a member of that committee I attended the meetings to provide information to the meeting and could I just ask you what you mean by having a good judge? In the municipal court, what is what are the qualifications for a good judge? Well, I think for one thing we have a choice as to whether we want to have a licensed attorney I think we should I think that What that does is it ensures that you have someone who's familiar with the process Familiar with how the system works another thing I think is you just need someone who's knowledgeable who understands the law and you need someone who has the Proper temperament to be a judge You have to be able to hear cases and rule on them in a judicious kind of way and Not kind of fly off the handle, but and not be you know too harsh, but also not Be the opposite either you kind of have to have the proper judicial temperament Thank You Alderman Meyer Alderman graph has quest and answer for you. I believe The original budget that was prepared was a three-year budget for the municipal court And at the time that this was prepared a very conservatively also They figured they were going to do I in the first year about 7,100 cases And that would result in a in a loss of about thirty six hundred dollars in the second year They're looking at doing seventy two hundred cases and that would result in an income of about fifteen thousand dollars and the third year they're looking at doing about the same number of cases But with the additional expense that they they will be having because it would be I don't know if it was the Clerk that they'd have was Additional expenses they'd have anyhow they were looking at about eighty two hundred dollars for an income In those now this is available in the city clerk's office for anybody that doesn't have this City Sheboygan special municipal court investigation committee report And I can tell you that the number of cases is Very conservative. I think we're going to go over that this year by probably a thousand cases Thank you Alderman Davis. Did you have your light on Alderman Davis? Within a municipal court increase or decrease the amount of attorney time out of the city attorneys office. I Think as far as attorney time it may decrease it some just by being a little more efficient I don't think that you're going to Save a huge amount in attorney time because I'm either going to be there or I'm not I I Don't predict a huge amount of cost savings there, but I also don't think it would be more expensive Thank you Alderman Davis does that answer your question. Thank you Alderman Davis Alderman Sarah. We're back to you Second question which goes right along with Alderman Davis question and you sort of answered it How would a municipal court affect the efficiencies of your employment responsibilities? I would think communication addressing the specific issues specific to Sheboygan. I think it would be Some of more efficient in that You have everything all in one place I think the the one thing that I thought the committee did in that regard that was probably a very good thing was they listened to the folks in Plymouth who had some concern that their court staff was doing a lot of Extra work that they didn't expect and they suggested that one way to deal with that would be To bring together what's already there in the current police computer system and Merge that together with a municipal court system so that you didn't have a court clerk who is spending all of his or her time Simply taking information off of one computer screen typing it onto another computer screen And it's my understanding that that program has Mostly been mostly been done so that you'll be able to just simply transfer information like dates of birth Addresses on names and things like that from one system to the other It was my understanding that they thought that would save about half the the time that the current clerk in Plymouth is taking on that work Do you foresee and I'll add to that Do you foresee the communication heightened because it would be a judge solely for Sheboygan and there would be maybe More opportunities to speak with the judge Yeah, I mean the a good judge obviously is going to make decisions based on the case and you know shouldn't be You know ruling in favor of one side or the other just because they happen to be employed by the city versus the state And I wouldn't think they would do that. I think where There is some benefit if you have a good judge Is that because you're dealing with certain kind of cases all of the time you're going to become a little more familiar with them I think where that really comes up is in building code type cases. I think that's where you would see A situation where the judge is going to be familiar with those because he'll see them a lot more often Then the circuit court judges do and the circuit court judges do a good job. It's just that they've also got They have to be generalists and that can that can be a difficult job for them And by having a municipal court judge that that's dealing with a specific area You you allow that person to become an expert in those particular areas Alderman Sardo is that three questions one more to go and you just mentioned and I'm asking this question to you You mentioned building code violations I think it was said at one time that there wasn't a day that you didn't spend on the Matlin case Sure seemed like it and this is why I'm asking this question to you It has been said that by having a municipal court We as a city would have the potential of addressing addressing the quality of life issues much more effectively Housing and building code violations to be specific. Would you agree? I? Would and again, I don't want to You know disparage what the circuit court system does some of the judges do a really good job of trying to take Time out to deal with some of those issues and some of them. I think do a very good job of that But again having sort of the every day dealings with that I think just makes you more efficient because you're dealing with that dealing with that on a regular basis The cases probably would be heard a little more quickly Which in building code cases is really I think a good thing now We've cut some of that time down now by some other things that we suggested like allowing building inspectors to issue Citations rather than waiting for a long time before they send them over to us for a long-form complaint But I think you would save some time The other thing that I think that you can do is It seems kind of weird for a prosecutor to be saying this but I think it's good that the fines are actually lower And it's not that the fines are lower the forfeitures are lower But the the overall cost is lower because the court costs are lower and I think that gives especially in building code cases a Little better chance to deal with the situation a little more quickly I think that you can understand that it may be difficult for a building inspector to write out a $243 forfeiture to a little old lady who you know need hasn't painted her Sighting you know in five years when she probably should have done that And there are things they do to try to avoid having to do that But sometimes at some point you do have to write a citation and it becomes a little more palatable When you can write a citation that's $80 rather than $240 and and then still you know the city actually ends up getting You know just as much out of that cases as they would if it were in the circuit court system with that much higher fine Thank you attorney Adams Alderman Radke. Thank you, miss madam chairman attorney I was so let me ask you this if the fines had been lower Would we have been dealing with Dean of Matlin for 25 years like we had been I mean here's my thought on the Dean of Matlin matter It's it's hard to know exactly because Mrs. Matlin situation is just so different than any other situation. I don't think we'll ever have a situation like that again What I do think though is that? Where the benefit would have been in that situation is we would have run our own collection system The circuit court has improved the way they collect. I think the current Clerk of Courts does a very good job of that given You know some of the restraints that they have But because a municipal court would do its own collection just on city cases There are a lot of things that that we probably could have done because we would have been closer to the situation That probably would not have allowed Things to get so out of hand You know by the time I got here nine years ago things were already far out of hand to the point where There was not a whole lot more than we but then what we could do then what we already did and Perhaps if we would have had some of those collection procedures in place it wouldn't have gotten as bad It wouldn't have solved the problem, but I think it probably would have made it better Alderman van der Weel thank you madam chair how often are Maybe tickets lessened or cases thrown out because of times like winter parking tickets dealing with it in July well Directly because of time you know no one the judges never say I'm throwing this case out because it's so old however It's a whole lot easier To dismiss a case when it when for whatever reason it might be a close call when you're hearing it Eight or nine months later because it just doesn't seem to be as important anymore. I Don't think you can put a number on that You know delay does sometimes cause problems I would say less so in judges just saying this is such an old case I'm gonna get rid of it and more so with things like Where are the witnesses now a year down the line? Are we gonna be able to get them into court? Are they gonna be as? You know excited about maybe having to take a day off of work or you know a couple hours out of work to be able to come in You know to testify in a case. That's a year old rather than one that might be only several weeks old Thank you attorney Adams. Thank you Alderman van der Weel Alderman the report is September 2004 yes Alderman graph I have a question for you I'm as it is right now with you going to the courts In at the courthouse Do you have a certain percentage of your your position description that you're supposed to be? Working on those cases It's not in my job description. I'd estimate that I probably spend it's going down. I would probably say I spend Around three-fourths of my time on prosecution. I would five six years ago. I would have said ninety ninety five percent it's not because it's getting to be less it's just because It's becoming more routine and it's some things you can just do and less now with a municipal court What would you estimate? My I don't think my time in particular would be changed Significantly it it might be a little bit It's just simply because you might not have to deal with the case as often there might not be as many points of contact Because the case might get hurt a little more quickly but You know, I don't see necessarily spending less time in court. I think people will probably still Contest tickets. I'll still have pre-trials, you know two to three times a week I'll probably still have you know court trials on a regular basis So I don't necessarily see my time going down significantly other than maybe the You know getting rid of some of the scheduling conferences Okay, is that something that's assigned to the assistant city attorney or does the city attorney also handle those cases or It's in my job description most of the time I do it You know in circuit court system there are times when there have been scheduling issues where You know, I've had to be in more than one court at once and I've had to ask Steve to cover for me We tried we try to avoid that and generally the judges are pretty good about realizing that You know, he's got a full-time job too full of plenty of things to do So they they're pretty good about it, but it does happen on occasion and have you ever Approach to the the courts requesting additional time I know in my position at as a Child support director We have often had to request additional time from the courts and normally they are Very acceptable to that so I was just wondering if if we as a city had ever went there and said well Could you schedule like a for instance? I schedule a Block time any to the courts so that we know when our when Our cases will be heard. Do you do anything like that or is there a possibility of you doing something? I've talked to judges about that not so much about requesting more time because that's not the not so much the issue is You know, we'd like to get I I would like to have some certainty. I know that I'm in court on certain days It's easier for me to schedule the courts have General said no, we don't want to do it that way because Your cases are the lower priority. We'd like to fit them in where we can fit them in Generally where the contact comes is, you know, two three four times a week I'm sending letters to the court saying there's a conflict I have to be in this branch at this time and also at in this branch at this time. Can you move it and You know most of the time they're willing to do that, but of course the problem is when you move it you're also I'll give as an example Not the exact situation, but I was in court on Friday A young man had an operating will intoxicated ticket and He did not have an attorney And I had I felt strongly he needed to talk to an attorney before he went to trial And he came to court without having talked to an attorney Unfortunately, even though I told him to go do it And and he asked the judge well, can I just have a different trial date? Well, that's really what was necessary in this case. So I wasn't going to oppose an adjournment But now this case ended up getting moved three months Because of that whereas, you know, you would like to maybe see that you could go talk to an attorney come back in two or three weeks Thank you attorney Adam for your information. Yes Alderman Eldenberg Another general question for attorney Adams when you have a trial to the court the frequency with which you would have a city employee They're a sworn officer building inspector that would be subpoenaed to provide testimony every single case. Well 99.99% of the cases and Maybe perhaps a question for deputy chief wife. I trust that we pay call in time for That Yes, that would be the case if the officer wasn't working and if he's on a different shift You'd be paying time and a half for that scheduled appearance. I think the benefit In the in the municipal court would lie in the control over that scheduling, but yes, this would be time and a half Thank you Is it time and a half for actual time or is it like a two hour call? If the officer is working is he's already working. So you're not paying anything additional, right? But if he's not working, he has to be called in well a minimum call would be three hours pay Thank you Deputy chief wife One for the question. Do you have an amount? I know finance is always asked for What amount of overtime is is contributed to the cost of court? work No, I heard several very very hard to isolate that figure when you control the scheduling process You have the luxury of Moving it around. We're never going to schedule a court for midnight So the midnight shift officers are always going to be coming in if you even if you control the scheduling But if you have some flexibility To have say an evening court there could very well be some savings on afternoon shift officers Of course, if you've got day shift officers coming in for an evening court, you'd have to pay them time And I have so the the savings if any lies in the control over the scheduling Alderman Meyer. Thank you, madam chair. This question is for attorney Adams Could you tell me what percentage of cases actually end up in circuit court? What percentage of well there right now a hundred percent of that are handed out what percent of the tickets That are handed out actually go to municipal court how many are settled out before they even get to court Well, they all go to circuit court. Yeah, well, they all go to circuit court So the circuit court costs get added on right away if the question is how many of them actually go to trial or how many of them get pre-tried I would say about You know, I haven't looked at it recently. It's as far as how many go to pre-trial that's certainly going up I would say a third or more Get contest maybe even a half get contested where they actually come into the pre-trial conference out of those I would say Maybe a third or a little less of those Actually go to trial so I would estimate that the ones that go to trial make up about 15 percent I would guess I think somebody had said there were I Think I heard somewhere in the report that that that you know We were estimating around 7,200 cases in a year. It's more than that and that you know between a thousand and fifteen hundred go go to court that Thousand to fifteen hundred might be a little high But that's that's pretty close and is it true that we right now receive about four hundred thousand dollars from the circuit court Right. We we receive from the circuit court On each case the actual fine amount less five dollars per case that they charge us plus then we receive the officers witness fees that are Imposed on on a defendant if they lose the case which we would receive in the municipal court as well Thank You Alderman Meyer Alderman Radke Thank You madam chairman the approximate cost or officers over time for 2004 for the city of Sheboygan cases was fourteen thousand six hundred dollars Thank You and Alderman with information on hand. Thank You Alderman Radke Alderman Susha Thank You madam chairperson Actually, I just wanted to get some clarification from Alderperson graphing that he's the chairman of finance You had given the numbers earlier that were in the report in regards to the first year The court would run at a thirty six hundred dollar loss and then the following two years You know a fifteen thousand dollar and eighty two hundred dollar profit. Is that correct? Whereas right now we are currently getting roughly four to five hundred thousand dollars a year under the current system Is that correct correct? Okay, so to me there's a huge financial disparity here I mean perhaps it's just because of the first three years, and I'm sure you're going to correct me such a huge disparity because The court would make a contribution to the general fund in the tune of In the second year approximately four hundred and eighty three thousand dollars and in the third year approximately 476 thousand dollars would be their contribution or what we could the municipal court would collect for the fines and forfeit Sure is that that we're assigned to us like right now we get this forty thousand dollars Or four hundred thousand dollars and no forty thousand dollars Yes, yeah Approximately from the circuit courts this would be the equivalent of that So that we're going to the general fund. I believe and Steve might have a better answer or Two things number one. I've made some more copies of that study report if anybody would like them Thank you. I didn't make the version that has all the exhibits But this has all the text and it also has the budget I didn't make well, there should be one for everybody. I believe At least for at least for the alderman who don't have it because more at least half of us do have that Then as far as the finances it needs to be clarified that And I think it's in the report Actually, it's in the The bigger version, I think it's one of the exhibits that has the perform a budget It's exhibit six if you've got the bigger version, and it's not I'm sorry. It's not in that smaller packet, but the for instance the estimate in year one Estimated four hundred and sixty one thousand five hundred dollars in forfeitures basically that would be Whether or not you're in circuit court or municipal court. In other words, we currently Net about four hundred thousand dollars from circuit court. What we're talking about is not netting Eight thousand dollars. We're talking about netting four hundred and eight thousand dollars, you know, it's that much and more after the issue is You get more revenue in because There's less court costs that are going to the state. That's the primary difference But then you've got City operating costs to offset that increased revenue that you're generating and the balance is are you generating? enough additional revenue to cover the new additional expenses that you've got and the the report had I think a slight deficit in the first year and Slight Surpluses in years two and three now one thing that that didn't take into consideration And you know I was on the committee the It didn't factor in the capital costs of a Municipal court in say the new police station It was the recommendation of the committee was that on a temporary interim basis that the court beheld in the council chambers but the committee did not feel that that was a good long-term solution and And frankly the problem is now you don't have a Court facility to move to so this would become longer than just a Temporary quick fix that it would probably be several years the way things are going The the report made a recommendation that if and when a new police station was built that consideration be given to incorporating Facilities for a municipal courtroom in the police station so that That would have to be you know part of the police station budget If it's not in there, then the issue is where do you hold the court? And you continue to hold it in the council chambers looks like I say it's not an optimum Facility for a courtroom, so that's all I've got. Thank you attorney McLean Alderman as I said again they said before The information well, I think I'm attorney McLean just provided it to you That's right So you don't have to call sue Richards to get a copy because now you have it Except for all the exhibits except for all the exhibits. You're absolutely right. Thank you. Alderman graph. Thank you so much Let's move on to agenda item number four Yes, oh I thought there's Nobody else correct. Nobody else from the committee Agenda item number four Submitting a communication from dimple Adams speaking up about the building and site selection of the new police station I would lose a file second I just wanted to say we've read Communications from dimple Adams we've listened to dimple Adams and dimple I bet we know how you feel about the police station sites And I thank you for all for sending us these letters and from keeping in touch with us Is there any further discussion on this particular letter? Who is the second I Second Hold them in segali. Thank you, madam chair. Are you not gonna let a dimple Adams discuss her letters here at the committee Did you want to open the floor to dimple Adams? Yes? I make that motion, please We have a motion and a second to open the floor to dimple Adams to speak about her letter Any further discussion? All those in favor I post No, I Think you have it dimple and we do have your letters and we have read your letter Hello Do I need to give you my address or anything? Yes, please do that. Okay. My address is 1424 Virginia Avenue Sheboygan and thank you for allowing me to speak tonight and It's good to know that you've read my letter and that you're going to give it Some consideration Of course, you know where I stand on where I want the police station built It's not because I live a half a block from Sheridan Park and because I got irritated that Sheridan Park Was rescinded as The site however, I do think it's important without being repetitive tonight To say that this council did make a decision on May 9th that changed everything and You made a decision to say we're not going to build a police station that the previous council voted on five times had at least 80 meetings on and 49 site studies, you know, you would have fought with the way that The arguments were coming across there that they just put up a dartboard with the names of the different sites And through the darts and that Sheridan Park one that's not how it happened. They chose Sheridan Park for basically three reasons One was centrally located Two was acquisition cost was zero and three The police department of all the sites that were studied preferred that site And I'm sure there were other things too, but they felt like the cost would be The best and that it would just be the best fit for the whole thing Okay, so now we're down to five sites and I just want to point out that You know as I came on the 20th, I believe it was that Wednesday night That we had the community input session and we all got up here and we talked and We, you know said that I did choose Vandervaart I choose Vandervaart now because that's the police preferred site And they're not just saying that that's the preferred site because they threw a dart again it really is the most centrally located it is on a big Northwest North-South, you know street and also has easy access to all parts of the city and a timely manner And I think that's extremely important And I think if you don't think that that's extremely important then maybe you need to go on a ride-along or something like that to to To get better acquainted with my central location is so important with our police department And bet that's basically it. What other thing though? last week I Saw this council get all excited about the spaceport Right Where is it going to be? It's gonna be right down here on pan and forth, right? Well that parking lot that we might have to give up if we go to 23rd Street it's on the corner of That seventh and pen or a sixth and pen pardon Seven so we're talking three blocks away that we're thinking about giving up a very valuable parking lot that will even become More valuable if the spaceport goes in and we really do have a lot more tourism in our area Downtown, thank you You're welcome dimple just as a bit of clarification The voting about Sheridan Park was the first vote to say yes to Sheridan Park The second one was about not to rescind The next vote was no referendum for the citizens and then the next one was no to the new council All right, right when I say that there were four votes about Sheridan Park They were all to say that we stand by our initial vote on August 2nd Would I be right with that madam chairman be right with that? That's the way I meant for that to be and I think as I stated it in the letters I did put that one was a referendum vote and one was you know, I mean I didn't you know, I think I put but the votes were for and Also, I would like to congratulate you that you did not allow another referendum to delay this I'd like to see this police station star construction within the next few months. Thank you Thank you, dimple Alderman Ratke. Thank you madam chairman I was not here with it when the architect was picked for the police department station Who actually picked that was at the police department council approved that is that how that works? Who know I guess my next question is this Okay, at one time Sheridan Park was a number one site Today Vanderbarts the number five site according that draft report we read so how come we went from wanting the best site to the worst site I don't understand what's going on here. I mean they want the best site We're looking forward now they're looking at the worst site and this is their architect. Thank you I'm all Alderman Ratke. We won't debate with with with the citizens. Thank you I have a motion in the second to file dimples communication. Is there any further discussion? All those in favor aye opposed Motion passes Agenda item number five letter from Gina Steinhardt and Jeffrey Allen Bob regarding their analysis of the architectural firm of Zimmerman's report and again Second Any further discussion? Alderman Serda I moved to open the floor to Gina Steinhardt or Jeffrey Allen Bob There's a motion to open the floor and the second to open the floor to Gina Steinhardt and Jeffrey Allen Bob And if any further discussion all those in favor opposed Gina Steinhardt and Jeffrey Allen Bob go ahead and we have your letter and we've your communication and we've read it. Thank you Okay You said you needed addresses. I'm at 1311 Maryland Avenue. Thank you And I live at 2906 a cell 10th Street. Thank you, Mr. Bob And I guess you know What mr. Ed, he said before I'd like to address said if he read this report as you said very thoroughly and right and Saw that there are some very Glaring discrepancies here that put van der Vart last when they really shouldn't be it should be Second maybe even first even just cost-wise not to do with emotions not to do with Preferences or anything this is just cost. There is a lot of things that are missing and that aren't put in there Equally across the board and it shows Some specific ones that I just picked out that were more obvious than the others and you know You can see where they don't have anything available or they have zeros down and These things aren't going to need to be dealt with you can't put zero down for demolition on City Hall or on North 23rd Street, we know that there's going to be buildings taken down We know there's going to be land acquisition costs and those to zero for City Hall Where are we going to put the parking structure? We don't even know we don't even have a cost for that So you can't put zero down That puts City Hall way at the top of the list in a completely unfair and and misleading manner because The cost for Vandervaart were put way too high. They only want 15 1.5 million so this is way off already plus if we sold Ten acres as he said said at the meeting then we'd make about a million dollars back So it would only cost point point five million for acquisition So this whole thing this whole cost comparison is so far off that if you guys use this straight the way it is Without considering all of these problems such as cable being so far screwed up or or um The radio tower being completely different costs You know that they're 225 thousand dollar difference depending on the cost. I mean these are huge Discrepancies, they're not small and they they're obviously set up In a way that makes Vandervaart look bad and City Hall and North 23rd Street look good even though The costs aren't completely current says you can see on the second page The parking lot wasn't put in the parking garage wasn't put in that shoots North 23rd Street and City Hall way up over 19 million And nobody wants to spend that And if you guys really look at this, I'm not making up these numbers. They're all from that Zimmerman report They're all from the report that you guys looked at These aren't correct There is problems with this report and the problem of course is it's public perception I mean, you know, you give this report out and you go here See all these numbers state or give a strong indication that one two three four and five fall into this order The press gets a hold of it releases it to the public and suddenly you got the entire city believe in the exact same thing When in fact the numbers really haven't been crunched properly for the bottom line for the public And I think it's a really big responsibility To make sure that the public Understands what the final costs are going to be in the end of the project I mean this this report might just be considering the fact that these are only going to be the cost of building the Building or constructing the station per se, but we all know there's so much more involved in that that You know initially ends up with your final dollar figure and I think we'll ask what the public really wants to know And if you just release this report as is I think it misleads the public Not purposely, but it just doesn't give them the proper perspective on what is really the best Site cost-wise of the five sites available Alvin Racky, you know he Admitted that he thought the Vandemort site was the fifth spot on the list And I think the general public the general public has that same perception only simply because of what the information is being released from This council and she was impressed so I think these numbers really need to be looked at a lot better And I think of I think after re-analyzing the final cost of what it's going to take the taxpayer to build this new police station Then you tell the public what you think is the number one two three four five spots Otherwise you're really making this decision based on Politics and emotions like everybody said you're not supposed to be making these decisions on it's supposed to be on a very Objective viewpoint supposed to be made solely on cost This report isn't coming across Totally clearly apples to apples type of thing. It's way off. There are big mistakes. Maybe not mistakes Okay omissions whatever I'm not saying that anybody did this on purpose But it's it's really obvious to just us too. I'm sure if any of you look at these same figures You can see having One site two million dollars more than the other site Just based on only these particular items that we picked out Then there's a problem and we didn't I didn't and these final figures on the second page We didn't change any of those first figures. We only added the parking lot issue the sale of the land issue and the parking garage issue and Just by adding those three items in that were omitted that makes drop-off site come up number one Vandervaart is number two Penn Avenue is number three city hall is next and North 23rd Street is the most expensive and Also the worst site according to the police station the neighbors the public and everybody else So if you guys pick that site, you're going against what everybody is asking you to do Thank You. Miss Steiner. Thank you. Mr. Bob I have a difficulty casting aspersions on the firm of Zimmerman and Sabanak, but I thank you for your information I mean, it's just there's some omissions Alderman Serda. Thank you, madam chair I think this question could apply here after that statement Can we invite Zimmerman back to address some of these questions? Do I need a separate motion for that or can I just make that request? I'm I will be Making a motion when we get done filing these to do that Great. Thank you. Thank you Alderman Serda We have a motion and a second to file the communication from Gina Steinhardt and Jeffrey Allen Bob all those in favor Signify by saying aye aye opposed motion carries agenda item number six Communication from Jerry Hemsing offering several suggestions for the city to review regarding the location of the new police station Recommends that the report of officer be accepted and placed on file Alderman van der wheel Thank mr. Hemsing for his ideas and informed him that his document will be referred to the committee of the whole which it was We have it. We've read it. I'll entertain a motion to file We have a motion and a second to file is there any discussion Alderman van der wheel. Thank you, madam chair is Jerry Hemsing here tonight No, and I did talk with him personally and invited him Thank you Alderman van der wheel We have a motion in the second to file the communication from mr. Hemsing all those in favor signify by saying aye opposed Thank you motion is filed Alderman drop. Thank you Yeah, the next item is a possible action on selecting two sites for the new police station The mayor informed me before the meeting that he has received the final Zimmerman report and They're in the process of making copies for all of us So I don't think we should do number seven until we get that final report and then also invite Zimmerman Back in here to answer the questions as proposed at a new newly scheduled a committee of the whole meeting Which would be? raised I don't know when the next one would be but If we continue the practice of Every other Tuesday would be Monday Monday excuse me. It would be the Read that 12th of September Alderman you have if if we're getting another report. I think we have our work cut out for us more reading to do I don't know if the mayor wants to add anything to that but well Mayor would you be willing to add Alderman Dan Berg say a word please I was gonna If this came up tonight, I was gonna show you a hundred and sixty eight signatures from All the people that live around the 23rd Street site that are 110 percent against The police department being built on the 23rd Street site, but I gave this to the clerk So mostly you should have a copy of these more information for us to peruse. Thank you Alderman Dan Burke Please mr. Mayor your honor Thank You madam chair As Alderman drop said earlier I received the final draft of the Zimmerman report and I communicated the Receipt of that report to the president of the council it is in final draft form and what that means is that Tweaking a little bit of the report, but the findings are not going to change and I asked Mr. Zimmer John Sabin as I could share at least the site evaluations with the council if he said feel free to do so I I'd like to point out that in the Every report obviously has a an executive summary The executive summary is not a very lengthy one It's half a page, but it does point out that the Two superior sites or 23rd Street location and the City Hall location And if we go a little further and this report will be finalized sometime this week So I'll be able to copy the final report But as I said he indicated to me that I could share with you that the site evaluations will not change If you look at the site evaluations a final count would put 23rd Street is number one City Hall is number two Drop-off site and Pennsylvania Avenue a close to I 91 points apiece and the van der Waard being last This is a report that was done by Zimmerman, but it's interesting to note that when the independent report that was Sponsored by mr. Mike mooth and other individuals in the community who were concerned about Sheridan Park and the location of the police station And shared services When that report came out there appeared to be a clash between the Zimmerman findings and the moot independent report at that time The integrity of mr. Sabin ash was never questioned Now that the report is not saying what how some people would hope it says his integrity is being questioned quite frankly I don't support that. I don't think it were in a position to question the integrity of the findings of an individual who has Worked pretty hard amongst a lot of dispute a lot of debate To make these findings in the best way that he can he's used an incredible amount of Experience building police stations himself and his staff so we have a report Hopefully they will finalize the findings that were there were asked by this council of mr. Ism of mr. Sabin ash to go out evaluate five six sites one was knocked off by Remaining is Don his job. We paid him close to thirty thousand dollars for doing it. These are the findings I think that wouldn't know you when you read this fine is it'll be very interesting reading very compelling reading And I will share these as soon as mr. Sabin ash before the end of the week sends the final report Thank you. You're on how many pages do we need to read now? I Believe some but I didn't count them, but I think Mary rage or a ditch at close to 75. Okay Get your spectacles out. Thank you your honor Alderman Cigali Thank You madam chairman could we could I please ask every chief vice if he has already seen this report? And if you know what the findings were and Were you were you asked concerning the final findings place? No, I haven't seen a report. I'm not sure if this has been delivered to the chief's office I haven't seen a report and was your second question. Were we part of it? Yes. No Deputy chief wise no one seems to report except me and the finance director I haven't shared it with the council. So before I even share it to staff I will share it with the council first and I'm not prepared to do it until we get the final version as I said Staff should not be reading final reports until the council does Thank You your honor Alderman Serda. Thank You madam chair interesting enough that That questions are perceived as criticism and yet at one time one individual was criticizing Zimmerman But now things are I guess going that way. So now we shouldn't ask questions But getting to what I was going to talk about here I'm going to make a plea to the public for accountability and for the media as well Because some of you may be under the impression with van der Vartt and the information that they had presented here weeks ago That the city was following up on that while I'm here to tell you that nothing was done I contacted van der Vartt to see if the city had contacted them on behalf of the information and the willingness to do a land swap Nothing. I was told that the ball is in van der Vartt's court Now interesting how this site can can quote that City Hall in 23rd Street site is some of the best two sites And with still you had van der Vartt come here and present that they were willing to do a land swap That's not even factor it factored in something's wrong. I Stopped by van der Vartt today reiterating once again They want to pursue possible land swap now. I'm asking you as Chairwoman do you need a motion? For our city employee Paulette Enders including Tom Poulton and forgive me because they didn't know I was asking this To do to speak on behalf of the city to formulate numbers to talk to van der Vartt and find out what what they exactly Want put that in terms on paper so we as a council can vote the public has the perception That van der Vartt is being spoken to that this land swap is being considered I do not want to just have them talking and nothing done. So I need to know do you need a motion to have our employees? Do this? Do you feel that that the information that that mr. T think gave to us regarding the numbers? It would be different that if we spoke to him privately how many of us in this room understanding and can equate What actual site they want? How that equates in terms of reducing the cost at van der Vartt how many in here can say they know that right now? They want 14 acres. They want us to buy 14 acres Do you remember what they said here last the last time they're here? It wasn't just the industrial part Do you remember what else they were talking about? Ah, the highest exactly. Where is that today? Thank you, Alderman Serta. I heard I'll still need an answer if you need a motion. Yes, I think Tom Holton No, that's not you're your engineer Alderman graph I think you can bring that motion in but you can't bring it in tonight because it's not on the agenda But I think you can can develop a Resolution or something asking for that and that's maybe what's needed For the council to look at right now I think we've been looking at what Paulette and Tom had put together as well as what Zimmerman had put together so that we can narrow it down to two or three or whatever we need and then Then go out after that more information I'm just I'm just on the table and it all the information should be considered at the same time right, but We were supposed to narrow it down at some point or you want to do a five Five people. How does that relate though to having the accurate information? So we can narrow it down if we would be at a disadvantage if we tried to narrow it down without all of the information You're gonna bring in a resolution that somebody talked to van der Vart about the Heisen property. Yeah, thank you And I think we also need to oh van der Vart an apology that we haven't followed up with them on this Thank you Alderman Serta Alderman Dan Burke. I don't see why we couldn't bring in why she couldn't make a motion tonight It's we're talking police station. We're talking about police station sites Yeah, we're taking possible action to select two sites and that isn't the action I think I think Alderman Serta would be very happy to bring the resolution and I don't think she would mind bringing that in at all This body is a if I may This body is a the Deliberatory body of the council. I know Okay Thank You all don't bear Alderman red. Thank You Madam Chairman's every call back to the Heisen property that we're talking about Paul at Ender said at the time the Heisen property is not contiguous to the city So it's not going to help our tax base anyway So why would we want to go that route? It's not going to help the city We want to keep them in the city. We don't want to send them out of the city Well, that may be so but I think Alderman Serta would like all that information to be presented to To Vandervar, thank you Alderman Redke Alderman Vanderville. Thank you, Madam Chair Attorney Steve McLean what's your opinion about how? Alderman Serta should handle this. Well, I think you got to get direction to staff number one You know this is just this is committee the whole it's a committee meeting. It's not council meeting as far as negotiating with somebody That really ought to be coming through the council If that's what you're talking about Alderman Serta, so I don't disagree that Should be perhaps council action to to talk further with Vandervar although if it's just preliminary information, you know staff can do that probably without Any formal action by the council but I'm not sure that You know any staff members who are aware that the council was interested in getting that information in making their decision so I think it's a matter of communication to the to the staff if you want to Try to generate some information that's preliminary for discussion purposes. I don't know that that would have to go to council but as far as Council authorizing some negotiations for possible purchase or land swap. I think that that should go through council Thank You attorney McLean Mr. McLean I have a question for you The reason why I ask it this way is because I was told at one time by a department staff that if I was requesting certain Information that I need to ask in front of the council to do so and that's why I proceeded this way I guess as an older person. I need to know them. What's my rights as far as gaining some information from the department staff Do I have to go through the direction of the council all the time? I guess I was perceiving that they would follow up on that and well, I think all of them sort of Departmental staff the department heads and things need to get some sense from the council as to what you want them to do and I do think it's unfair if an individual alderman says, you know Would you go over here and you know do this all all this information? Just, you know laterally without some sense that that's what the council as a whole is interested in Because then department heads kind of get Fragmented in a lot of different ways get different alderman saying I'd like you to do this I'd like you to do that and you know, they're not going to accomplish anything. They really need to get some sense from the group as To what you'd like them to do as opposed to I think Doing work for individual alderman, you know gaining a lot of detailed information that's going to take a fair amount of time to get Thank you attorney McLean and Alderman Saturday, you're going to take care of that piece of paper. Yes. Thank you so much Yes I'll entertain a motion to adjourn All those in favor signify by saying aye Thank you ladies and gentlemen see you at the council meeting right Marty You were wrong that time buddy We'll get mr. Bladorn over here. We'll do an interview with the referees Hartman got a hand on the ball