 Welcome to Bogle Heads On Investing, podcast number 52. Today we're talking about a special topic, estate planning, with estate planning attorney Ryan Barrett and author and CPA Mike Piper. Hi everyone, my name is Rick Ferri and I'm the host of Bogle Heads On Investing. This episode, as with all episodes, is brought to you by the John C. Bogle Center for Financial Literacy, a 501C3 non-profit organization dedicated to helping people make better financial decisions. Visit our newly designed website at BogleCenter.net to find valuable information and to make a tax deductible contribution. Today our discussion is all about estate planning. This is probably one of the most important and the most overlooked aspects of a financial plan. I find that about 50% of my new high net worth clients have either no estate plan or have an estate plan that is either out of date or have done some estate planning but have not completed it. And that could create a lot of problems for their heirs. We're going to hear about this today from two guests. My first guest is Ryan Barrett who is a member of the California Bar and the Utah Bar and he works with clients in both states. Ryan is Mike Piper. Mike is a CPA and the author of many tax books as well as investing books. He's also the author of the popular blog Oblivious Investor dot com and he is the creator of the open social security calculator at opensocialsecurity.com. Mike's latest book is titled After the Death of Your Spouse, Next Financial Steps for Surviving Spouses. Putting a copy of this short paperback book with your estate planning documents will probably save your surviving spouse thousands of hours of time and thousands of tears because Mike has made this information available in an easy and understandable way. So with no further ado, let me introduce Ryan Barrett and Mike Piper. Welcome to the Bogleheads On Investing podcast. Thank you, Rick. So before we get started, always like our guests to talk a little bit about themselves. So I'll start with Ryan. You have been an attorney for more than 10 years. Why specialize in estate planning? Estate planning, I got actually drawn in through financial planning. When I worked with my financial advisor to sort of set up my financial plan, just the idea of helping somebody plan for their future. And then also the unexpected that estate planning was a little more my wheelhouse just because I had a law degree and the background in that. So getting out of litigation, out of the adversarial and into more just working with somebody and helping them prepare for something that's going to benefit them and their beneficiaries. And you say that your goal is to be able to bring estate planning to the masses. Could you explain that a little bit? Well, I think estate planning can be a little intimidating for a lot of people. They come to a firm that handles estate planning and they don't really know what it's going to cost. A lot of times firms don't have fixed prices up front. They, you know, they bill hourly, they have retainer agreement. And I like to target the audience that doesn't have the extremely complex estate plans. We're not getting into asset protection. People with that many assets and go that avenue are usually will usually already have attorneys. So, you know, the person that thinks maybe they need an estate plan. And I think most people do have a simple approach, fixed prices, let them know what their options are, try and be as unintimidating as possible and as up front and straightforward as possible. So people know exactly what they're getting into and what it's going to cost them. You are licensed to practice law in California and Utah. But unlike other professions like the investment advisory profession, you're, you can't go outside those states. Is that correct? That's correct. Yeah. As long as you reside in California in Utah, then I can more than happy to help you. But outside of that, can't do much. And Mike, you're a repeat guest. Thanks for coming back. You are CPA and your latest endeavor is a great little book called After the Death of Your Spouse. I mean, the title is not appealing, but right, right. It's not a happy topic, obviously. After the death of your spouse, the next financial steps for surviving spouses, which is a fantastic resource. I mean, I really believe that people should just buy the paperback edition of this book and it's not very much. And just stick it in your estate planning documents because so much information in this book. But why did you decide to go down this path after, you know, a lot of books on taxes and a lot of books on accounting and then investing and now estate taxes. So what, what caused you to take this pivot? Yeah. Mostly it was just seeing these situations where, you know, when a person's spouse dies, they're suddenly, you know, from an emotional and psychological point of view, it's one of, if one of the hardest times in their life, if not the very hardest time in their life. And then the way our system is set up at that very same moment, they have this huge list of administrative and financial to do items just dropped in their lap, basically when they're quite possibly the worst time to have to deal with a whole bunch of things. And now they do have to deal with a whole bunch of things. And then in a lot of cases, it's made worse by the fact that you know, in a lot of households, one of the two spouses will kind of take the lead on financial matters. And of course it's a 50 50 chance that it's the other spouse who's the surviving spouse. And so in a lot of cases, they now have all these things to deal with. And they don't have all of the, you know, skills and experience built up over over decades that the other spouse would have. So there's the point of the book is basically just to walk people through it and plain language. You know, let's start with a simple question about what is an estate plan and and why should people have an estate plan? So I'm going to go to Ryan, our attorney expert on this. And Ryan, tell me why you even have an estate plan? Well, an estate to start is just what your assets are at the time of your death. So an estate plan is essentially a plan in place that you make before your death for what will happen with those assets when when you do pass. There are a number of reasons to have an estate plan. It will obviously vary person to person complexity of their state and the extent of their estate. At the most basic level, it's a will, which just says where you want what assets to go. Beyond that, you have trust and other avenues for for distributing assets that will have tax consequences. They'll avoid probate. It's important to plan for your children if you have minor children, not necessarily what assets they'll get, but who will take care of them. It's one to ensure that your wishes are carried out, you know, upon your passing, but also two just to make things easier on those that survive you so that there's no fighting. There's no there's no question what will happen. Well, let me ask a question about that because, you know, ironically, the clients that I deal with, I'm rather shocked by the number of high net worth individuals who don't even have a will. They don't have other documents like guardianship instructions for their children. What what happened to all of their assets in their children? If they don't have an estate plan, if they don't have the documents, what happens? Separating those from assets and your children, your assets will be distributed according to what are called intestate laws. So intestate means dying without a will. And so each state has its own intestate laws, although they're fairly similar. So in Utah, that would be if you're married and you don't have children from a previous marriage, your wife gets everything. So it's pretty simple. If you do have children from a previous marriage, then your wife would get seventy five thousand dollars and then half of the remaining assets and so on and so forth. It gets confusing the more time, the more people are either not surviving you or otherwise. And then your children, well, guardianship will be determined by the court. Can I ask you a question about that? Stop right there. So guardianship will be determined by the court, but it's not like you get in a car wreck with your spouse and your young children are maybe with a babysitter and unfortunately you and your spouse pass away. And guardianship will be determined by the court. But what happens in the meantime? I mean, what happens to these children? There's short term guardianship and then long term guardianship. So in the short term, if there's there's no one available to take them, then they'd be cared for by the state. They'd either go to a home or child care services. Long term, you go through the process in court. So somebody would begin that process by filing addition for guardianship. And that can be literally anyone. It can be one of your surviving siblings. It can be your parents. And then the court will review whoever requests to be guardian and then make a determination based on what's in the best interests of the child. So that can get confusing, complicated. When multiple people come forward, it can get very emotional. Everyone thinks that they are the best person for the children. And but ultimately, yes, it's the court's decision. Who will take those children? Well, like, let me ask you, when it comes to financial matters, one of the documents that we're told we should have is a durable power of attorney. What does that do? Yeah, just in general, a power of attorney allows somebody else to make decisions on your behalf. And so in this case, we're talking about financial decisions. So for instance, if you become incapacitated, not death, but something else happens to you, this would allow the person who you name that would give them the ability to make investment decisions or, you know, have control over your checking account and things like that so that your bills can still get paid and so on. Ryan, what about a medical power of attorney? Why is that important? Medical power of attorney is when you're incapacitated. It sets forth who can make decisions when you can't make decisions for yourself under what conditions that power transfers. And then you have the decision what sort of care can be provided end of life decisions when somebody's on life support, the situations like that. OK, let's get into the concept of a trust. A lot of people set up trusts. A lot of people don't set up trusts. What are the main reasons why someone would set up a trust in very broadly different types of trust they could set up? Sure. The idea of a trust is it's a financial arrangement where somebody else has control over your assets for the benefit of a beneficiary. So there are different types of trust in a living trust. Usually the trust or person who sets up the trust will also be the trustee. And the trustee is the person who manages the trust. They'll be the trustee for their lifetime. And then upon death, usually that responsibility transfers to somebody else. And the idea of a trust in that situation is you're taking assets technically away from the person that owns them. So when they die, there's no transfer of those assets from that trust or to the other party, so they don't have to go through probate. So that's one of the biggest advantages of having a trust, especially in California, where the probate processes is really long. Whatever assets are in that trust just get transferred automatically. So it's much smoother, it's much quicker. You don't need the court to intervene. It's less costly. There's a number of different trusts. As I mentioned, there's a living trust. There's a testamentary trust, which is a trust that doesn't really come into being until the person is deceased. So that doesn't have the advantage of avoiding probate, because the property doesn't actually fund the trust until you already pass. Revocable trusts are the most common. That's where you can create the trust, but you remain the trustee and you can cancel the trust at any time. You can make changes throughout your life and it doesn't really become irrevocable until you pass. And then the other end, there's irrevocable trusts, which completely remove the assets from you, from your control, usually managed by a business. And that has a lot of advantages for what protects you from creditors because you literally don't own the assets anymore. So they can't come after the assets if there was a lawsuit, something like that. That's good. I know there's just an infinite number of ways to write trust, depending on what your needs are. Mike, do you see any other common uses for trusts? Right. So just like Ryan mentioned, avoiding probate is a very common and important reason to set up a trust. There's also just anybody who wants to exert some sort of control over their assets after their death. For instance, if they have, you know, they're leaving assets to a child who they don't, for one reason or another, they think that the child would not make great decisions with regard to those assets. It could be because the child is disabled or it could just be because the child has a history of making poor financial decisions. And so then you would set up a trust with a trustee. The trustee could be another trusted family member or it could be a CPA or an attorney, somebody like that, who would then be managing those assets for the benefit of the beneficiary. But Mike, one of the advantages or disadvantages of an irrevocable trust is when you put assets into an irrevocable trust, you no longer get stepped up basis on death. Could you talk about this from a tax standpoint, the difference between using a revocable trust and an irrevocable trust? When we're talking about just normal assets held in a taxable brokerage account, when you die, the person who inherits them gets a step up in cost basis, which means their cost basis will be equal to whatever the market value is on the date that you die. So they could sell those assets right away and not have to pay any capital gains tax. Whereas in some cases here with an irrevocable trust, there wouldn't be a step up in cost basis. And so that's going to create some additional cost. If they sell the assets, there's going to be some some capital gains. What is the cost basis? Let's say that I owned a lot of stock and I put it into an irrevocable trust, a generation skipping trust for the benefit of my grandchildren. And the cost basis I had on that stock was $100,000, but now it's worth a million dollars. Yeah, it's just carry over cost basis. So their cost basis to my grandchildren would be $100,000. Right. It could be more as, you know, if the trust is reinvesting dividends and acquiring more shares at higher prices as time goes on, there's going to be no step up. So although you get the money out of, say, my estate for the benefit of credit or protection and also for the benefit of potentially estate taxes, what I lose in this transaction is I lose or they lose the step up basis on death. Yeah, there's trade offs involved, certainly. Also, there's just the fact about irrevocable versus irrevocable, there's, you know, the flexibility. You lose the ability to make changes down the line. And so there's trade offs going on here, definitely. Does everybody need a trust? And I mean, I ask that is because a lot of people have beneficiaries on their IRAs and 401ks and Roth accounts, four or three B's, whatever. They also now in their personal account have what's called transfer on death, DOD, so those assets go directly to somebody else. And let's say they didn't own a house. Let's say they were living in an apartment. It seems like you wouldn't need a trust. Yeah, myself as an example, I do not have a trust for that exact reason. More than 90 percent of our total net worth is retirement accounts that will just pass automatically by, you know, designated beneficiary. No, I don't think everybody needs a trust. Ryan Ryan might have a different opinion. I don't know. We'll see. No, no, I would agree with that. It, you know, estate plans varying complexity and depending on how complex your estate is and where you want it to go. I mean, if you have a spouse and you have accounts of beneficiaries, everything's already kind of accounted for is just really the more complex your state gets and the more the more detailed you want that distribution to be at your death, the trust will give you that control. But yeah, there are definitely a lot of people that don't need to trust at all. There are a few states that are what are called community property states. And the rest of the states are called, I think it's spousal states. Is that correct terminology? Yeah, that was a property or just common law, common law, separate property. They're all they're all kind of the same. And so, but there's very few. There's I think like six states that are common, I think there are seven because I live in one seven. But some of the big states like Texas and Arizona and California. So even though there's only seven states is a pretty good sized part of the population that falls under community property. So could you explain what happens in a community property state versus a common law state? Sure. Well, in a community property state, what it says is essentially any any assets that are acquired, any money that's earned during the marriage is community property. So if there's unequal earning capacity or earnings from the wife and the husband, regardless, all those earnings are shared equally. So the wife would own 50 percent, the husband would own 50 percent. And then on death, you can only transfer, obviously, that property that you own. So if whatever assets are in that community property, you can only transfer half of them. Same goes with property. If there's a home that's acquired during the marriage, even if only one spouse is on the title, it's that that property is still community property and in each spouse owns half. And common law property, the difference in community property and a separate property state is just how it determines what you own. So in a community property state, if you own half of that property, you can only transfer half of that property. And if it was a separate property state and you were you were the only name on the title, then you can transfer the entire property. OK, I'm a little confused. In a community property state, if you've got spouse A and spouse B, and there's a pool of community property, essentially, it's treated as if spouse A already owns half of the property and spouse B already owns half of the property. So if spouse A dies, spouse A's will doesn't have anything to do with what happens with spouse B's 50 percent. Spouse B's 50 percent is still spouse B's 50 percent. But spouse A's will can can determine where spouse A's 50 percent goes. And of course, in many cases, it would be left to spouse B. And now spouse B would have 100 percent, but it could be left to somebody else. Give me another example of common law. Sure. So and other. So then we have to talk about other ways that property can be owned jointly. The most common would be joint tenants with rights of survivorship. And basically, when property is owned that way by two owners, then when spouse or when joint owner A dies, it automatically goes to joint owner B. But there's other versions as well. So you can have a tendency in common where if spouse A or if two people own property this way, then in that case, when one person dies, their will controls what happens to their share of the property. So they could leave their share of the property to their kids, as opposed to automatically going to the other joint owner. So it depends how the how the owner, how the property is is owned. Basically, how it's titled. So obviously, titling of property is something you certainly want to discuss with your estate planning attorney, depending on which state you're in. Let me ask about cost basis in a community property state. If if it's both jointly owned and one person dies, does it get a step up on death? Yeah. And community property states, the surviving spouse gets a full step up, which is an advantage relative to common law states. So in other states, what happens is the surviving spouse will get a half step up, basically. So if property was purchased for $300,000 and its current market value is $500,000 at the time of death, they would get their basis stepped up halfway. So it'd be stepped up to $400,000. And a common law state, whereas a community property, the surviving spouse gets a full step up. So that's an advantage in those states. So I live in Texas, which is a community property state. And I understand that here when I die, all of my assets, my home, mutual funds all get stepped up. When I die fully, 100 percent, the whole account, whether. Whether it's she's on the title or not. And then when she dies, there is another step up as well. So in community property states with a couple, there are two step ups during their lifetime, which is different than common law state, correct? Yeah, it would be two full step ups, and that is different. Exactly. Yep. So we get a little bit of a federal tax advantage by living in a community property state. Yeah, which is strange because we're talking about federal tax instead of state tax. And so just because we live in community property states, we get a federal tax break. Whereas common law states, couples don't get the same tax break. So I find that interesting. Yeah, I agree. It is uncommon that the federal tax treatment varies from one state to another. All right. So we talked about probate a little bit, and this is a mystifying thing for a lot of people who have never been through it. Ryan, you said in California it can take a long time to get an estate through probate. Can you talk us through what happens when an estate goes to probate? Yeah, probate is essentially the court process for if there's a will validating the will, determining what assets the deceased owned and then who those assets should go to and ensuring that creditors are also taken care of. So assets of avoid probate, beneficiary designations or trust property, they're not even discussed or considered in that probate proceeding. So in a sense, you're saying that because they avoid probate, they can be taken care of right away. They don't have to go through the court system. Correct. Yeah. If a house was owned in the name of a trust, that the beneficiaries or the heirs to that house can sell it right away. They don't have to wait until it goes through probate. Correct. If the real estate is titled in the trust, yeah, that it would avoid probate. Isn't that a big thing? I mean, look, I see a lot of houses as you drive down the road that are empty and I'm beginning to realize that a lot of those homes are from people who passed away and they can't do anything with them. The family can't do anything with it because the real estate of the house for the last surviving parent was, you know, not in a trust. There may have been a will, maybe not. But the house is just sitting there empty and you can't do anything about it until the probate is done. Am I correct on that? Yeah, that's correct. The title of the house is in limbo until the court decides who gets it or how it's to be distributed. That's one of the most frustrating things about probate is until that probate process is complete, until the estate is closed, it's all kind of up in the air. I can imagine during COVID, this thing just slowed down to a trickle, you know, getting things through probate court. Yeah, courts all over the country came to a screeching halt, essentially. I mean, anytime something required an in-person court appearance and it just didn't happen. Everything's still kind of backed up, especially in California. It's going to take a long time before they catch up for certain. In California, I know that technically on paper, it shouldn't take more than a year, but it can take two, three, sometimes even more years before that estate is closed and the probate process is complete. You were mentioning like houses sort of unoccupied and them being in probate. And that's true in a lot of situations, selling the property or transferring ownership, none of that can happen until the estate's closed and probate is completed. So clearly, having the least amount of assets when you die go through probate is a good idea with either beneficiaries or transfer on death. Trust something where it doesn't have to go through a probate would be a beneficial thing for most people who are listening to this podcast. Yeah, that's correct. I mean, there's an argument to be made for the probate process. If you think there's going to be fighting over the validity of a will or anything like that, you want the court to be involved and have some level of control over things. But generally, yeah, you want to avoid probate as much as possible. So we've talked about needing a will, power of attorney, durable power of attorney, we need a medical power of attorney, guardianship papers, perhaps a trust depending on your situation and doing these documents and go to Mike on this because I don't want a biased opinion by an attorney who does documents. I mean, why can't we just go to legal Zoom or something online and create these documents? Mike, I mean, do we need to hire an attorney? Nothing against you, Ryan. I'm just asking Mike. No offense taken. No, so I am interested in Ryan's opinion here also. I'll say that from my point of view is in some cases, yeah, go ahead and do legal Zoom. If you have a very simple situation, although the caveat here is that in the field of taxation, we have a joke that everyone thinks that their situation is simple because they don't understand all the complexities that are actually bundled in there. So there are sometimes where legal Zoom is going to be fine. The less amount of assets in question, the less complicated they are, not having kids, for instance, would be another thing that makes things simpler or not having minor children anyway. There are some cases where, sure, go ahead and go through legal Zoom, especially if the alternative is that you wouldn't you wouldn't talk to an attorney. If you just know that the alternative would be no will at all, then OK, something like legal Zoom and attorney. I mean, the main point isn't that they're going to. You know, write up these documents for you. It's that they're going to give you advice about what should be included in these documents. That's it's valuable and it's valuable in ways that people often don't anticipate. What do you think, Ryan? I mean, unbiased opinion. Unbiased opinion, like Mike said, there might be an instance where legal Zoom makes sense for those circumstances where one year estate is relatively simple and your estate plan should be relatively simple. You'd also have to be like a do-it-yourselfer. If you if you're pretty confident, you can figure out most things on your own and you do a lot of research. And personally, I think the law is at times accessible. So if you think that you can figure that out, again, like Mike said, one of the bigger advantages is a lawyer will present options to you that you didn't really know. One of the things to consider is the cost of making a mistake. You know, like if you look at legal Zoom, I imagine it's probably a couple hundred dollars for a will, a couple hundred more for a trust. I mean, for a basic estate plan with an attorney, you can get will, trust, power, attorney, all that stuff for twenty four, twenty five hundred dollars. The cost of making a mistake if something does go through probate that it wouldn't otherwise, I mean, the probate process itself is going to cost the very minimum two thousand dollars. And then based on the size of the estate, it's going to go up from there. So it's usually pretty good insurance to go with an attorney. So let's say I was living in Texas and I moved to Utah. Do I need to get all my estate documents redone in Utah? No, you don't need to. If a will or trust is validly created in one state, then it's going to be be upheld in the other state. So the state in which it's formed or created, that determines the validity of it. As far as the administration of it, that's going to be determined by the state where you reside at the time of death. There are some reasons to move your estate to another state. When you move for tax reasons, Mike probably has more knowledge on that subject. What do you think, Mike, are there tax reasons to go visit an attorney in the new state? Will you now live? Yeah, there can be one big thing. The federal estate tax has a super high exclusion amount right now, a little over twelve million dollars. So obviously the number of people impacted by that is very small. And that's per person, by the way, that's not per couple. Right, exactly, yeah. And if one person dies, the other person gets 24, correct? Yeah, these surviving spouse can, we have what we call portability now. So any unused exclusion amount can be carried over, basically, to that surviving spouse. OK, so go on with the state, sorry about that. No, you're good. So at the state level, many states don't impose an estate tax, but some do, and of the states that do, in many cases, that exclusion amount is a much lower threshold, one million dollars, for instance. And when you're dealing with that one million dollar threshold, obviously that means that a lot more people are going to be impacted. You know, people who estates exceed one million aren't close to hitting 12 million, right? So and not only that, but in some cases, there isn't this portability that we talk about between spouses at the state level. And so you can use certain types of trusts, for instance, to essentially artificially create that portability. So without getting into the details, yes, that would be a reason, certainly, to talk to an attorney in the new state so they can help you work through those issues. I understand. OK, well, thank you for that. Let's get to the second half of this, which is Mike's book After the Death of Your Spouse, Next Financial Steps for a Surviving Spouse. Great book talks about the immediate steps and then it talks about intermediate steps. I'm going to let Mike go ahead and take over from here. And then what should somebody do? What's the first thing they should do? Well, generally, the first thing in this long list of administrative things to be done is getting certified copies of the death certificate. And that's because there are a ton of different entities that you're going to interact with over the next months that will need a copy of that. And sometimes if you're visiting them in person, they'll be happy to let you show it to them and then maybe they'll scan it or make a copy and then you can keep it. But sometimes they want to keep a certified copy of the death certificate, so you'll need several copies. How many is several? I mean, 20, 30? Yeah, 20 to 30 is what I often hear recommended, but it's going to depend basically the more accounts, the greater the number of accounts that the deceased person owned than the more financial institutions that you'll be interacting with. And so the more copies you're going to need. So basically the more complex the person's life, the more copies you're likely to need. Sure, speaks to simplicity, which is what we talk about on the Bogleheads all the time. Listen, I'm a veteran. You know, I retired from the Marine Corps after 21 years and I understand that I may be able to get free death certificates. What are the advantages and disadvantages of that? Yeah, well, disadvantages, none really. It's free. So how long will it take? Yeah, well, so there's a few ways you can get death certificates. Number one is the whatever business is handling the deceased person's remains. So the funeral home or the cremation company, they will usually arrange to have however many you ask sent to you. And there's going to be a per copy fee for that. You can also request them from your state or from your county. In many cases, requesting them from your state is less expensive, but it does take longer. Of course, how long it takes and how much it costs varies by state and by county. Here in St. Louis, for instance, I think it's $11 per copy. And just like you said, veterans, many states will provide some number of free copies of certified death certificates for surviving family members of a deceased veteran in Missouri. For instance, I believe it's three copies. So you might as well request them, but you're probably going to need more than that. OK, so now we have the death certificates. You know, we were ready to get going on. Contacting various people if they haven't already been contacted. So what's the what's the list? The list, yeah, it's a long list, unfortunately. And I just want to back up a step and say that this is the reason why the book, by the way, is broken down into immediate next steps and intermediate next steps is that there's a lot of things that you're going to have to do that are important, but they're not necessarily urgent. And in some cases, you can't do them even in a lot of these cases, you can't do them until you have that death certificate in hand. So for a lot of these things, yes, it's important to know that it's going to be on your to-do list, but you don't have to tackle it right now. And also in many cases, it's best to wait before making major decisions. So for instance, if there's life insurance proceeds or a death benefit from a variable or any sort of annuity, for instance, you're going to have to decide how you want to invest that money. But you don't have to make that decision immediately. It's OK to just leave the money sitting around in cash for a little bit while you work through all these other things you need to get sorted out. So just it's important to understand that not all of these things need to be tackled absolutely immediately. Companies to contact, obviously, one of the first ones would be just who we mentioned. If there's a life insurance policy, contacting that insurance company, giving them the certified copy of the death certificate and so on. Also, many people have some level of life insurance through their employer. So contacting the deceased person's employer to ask about that. There's other information you're going to need to cover with the employer as well. Generally, the employer will owe the estate some amount of unpaid wages. Also, unused vacation time. And then you'll also want to talk to the employer about, you know, is there an FSA or HSA linked to the employer that has some balance in there? You'll want to find out about that. If your health insurance is currently through your deceased spouse's employer, then it's super important to get the details there as far as how long does that coverage continue? Exactly when is it going to terminate? Because obviously you have to start lining up your next source of health insurance. Social Security Administration is important. I know you wrote a whole chapter in the book about how to deal with social security and what do you get and what do you don't get? And there's even a death benefit, apparently, that you get from social security, which quite frankly, I didn't even know. So life insurance, health insurance, your employer, social security, credit cards, loans. Oh, by the way, when I die, all my loans go away, correct? I mean, all my credit card debt, right? Unfortunately, not exactly, no. So any. But I thought I wanted to die in debt. I mean, you hear that all the time from people, right? Well, in a lot of cases, if you have debt, there's somebody else who it's also their debt if you're married. In many cases, you know, your spouse is on that debt also. So it is their debt also. But as a separate point, even if that's not the case, your estate still owes that debt. And so creditors, you know, if there's some credit card balance or, you know, a car loan or what have you, your estate still owes that debt. So so I just want to circle back a little bit to probate then. So between husband and wife, let's say husband dies. The this still goes through probate because husband might have auto loan, for example, that that's in his name and he's paying on it. So wife gets the car, but she still owes what the husband took out as a loan, correct? And this is all done through probate. Yes. Yes, the both questions. Yes, it's done through probate. And yes, the wife would still owe the loan on the car. OK, so life insurance, health insurance, we'll get a little bit more to social security in a minute. Employer loans, credit cards, changing the name on bank accounts. How about, you know, deeds? Mike, you talked about in your book, personal representative, instead of instead of somebody doing this themselves, they have a personal representative do it or maybe in a point, a court appointed personal representative. And what is that all about? Yeah, personal representative is more just a catch all term. We've probably heard the term executor before. That's the person named in the will to handle the affairs of the estate. If if there is no will or if there was nobody named as executor in the will or if the person named as executor chooses not to be the executor, because you don't have to be, then the court's going to appoint an administrator to handle the affairs of the estate. And personal representative is basically just a catch all term to describe executors and administrators. It's basically just whoever is appointed by the court ultimately to handle the affairs of the estate is known as the personal representative. So you can think of it as a synonym for executor, basically. And Ryan, in your experience, does the courts appoint a personal representative? Who are these people? Personal representatives are usually the professionals that have done that before. Sometimes the court will appoint a personal representative that is related to the estate in some way, related to the decedent. Court has a lot of discretion as to who to decide to handle that. And they get paid for this, these people? Yes, they can get paid, yeah. So there's really no difference then between a personal representative and a trustee or an executor. I mean, it's all the same, right? It's just the same just different terminology for the same thing. So personal representative and executor, you can think of those as synonyms, but there is an important distinction between those and trustee, right? Because the personal representative and the executor, they were talking about the estate, the assets in the estate, whereas trustee is dealing with the assets in the trust. Very good. Mike, in your book, you talk about an idea that I had never heard of before. That is to open up a separate bank account for all of this and get a separate tax ID number for the deceased, the estate. Can you talk about that? Yeah. So in the year of death, the surviving spouse can file jointly with the deceased spouse for the year of death. And so that income that's going to be included on that return is all of the surviving spouse's income for the whole year. And for the deceased spouse, it's all of their income up until the day that they died. Any income after that is the estate's income. And that has to be reported on the estate's income tax return, which is a separate return that has to be filed. I'm married and I died. And so wouldn't we just file a joint return that year? Right, exactly. You do file a joint return that year. Most likely. I mean, you don't have to just like any other year, you surviving spouse could choose to file separately, but probably she would choose to file jointly. And so that joint return that she would file would include all of her income that year and all of your income up until the date of death. But any income that would be your income, let's say it occurs a month after you die and let's say it would be your income except you are now deceased, that income is the estate's income. And the estate is a separate legal entity. And so that income, the estate's income, needs to be reported separately. And so having a separate bank account, separate tax ID number is really the way you want to do it. Okay. Having everything going into one account and being intermingled, it's going to be at least from a tax perspective, it's going to be a mess. I assume it's likely potentially going to cost some problems with regard to other legal topics. From a tax perspective, it's definitely going to be simpler to have the estate have a separate bank account. Is that a state tax form a 1041? Is that what that's called? It's 1041, right? And that's the estate income tax return, which is separate from the return that you would file with regard to estate taxes. Right. That's a different tax form. And a different form for the joint income tax return. So three tax returns. I tell you what, I thought this was going to be an easy podcast, but the more we talk, this is not easy. Yeah. That's exactly the point of the book. There's so much, so many different things you need to do. And if you haven't been through it before, all of it's new. Let's get into things like selling the house. One spouse dies. The other spouse is still in the house. House is too big. Right. Spouse wants to sell the house. Normally, if it's after the year after the spouse died, that would be a single tax return. So you would think that the free capital gain on that would be 250,000, but it's actually not. There's an exception. So Mike, this is a tax question, so I'm going to go back to you. Yeah, exactly. To back up a step, generally, when you sell your home, if you sell it at a gain, you can exclude up to $250,000 of the capital gain. If you lived in the home for at least two years out of the last five years, and you owned the home for at least two years out of the last five years, and you didn't use this exclusion for the last two years. So if you meet those three requirements, you can exclude it up to $250,000 of gain. And if you're married, it would be $500,000 instead of $250,000. So to Rick's question, the idea here is that, okay, well, in the following year, this person is no longer filing as married, so you would think it would be a $250,000 exclusion, but there's a special rule that allows you to get the $500,000 exclusion. If you sell the home specifically within two years of the date of death, and it's important to note that it's two years of the date of death rather than two calendar years, for instance, and you haven't remarried by the time that you sell the home, and the normal requirement where you haven't used this exclusion for the two years prior, neither you nor the deceased spouse used this exclusion during that two-year period, then you can use the $500,000 basically married couple exclusion amount rather than the $250,000. But aside from that, are there any others like that? Any benefits to surviving spouses or basically the year after the death of a spouse, the surviving spouse has to file as a single taxpayer with all lower income thresholds and Irma thresholds and everything else? In many cases, yes, the surviving spouse will now just be a regular single unmarried filer. However, there's also the qualifying surviving spouse filing status used to be known as qualifying, whether we're filing status. But to qualify for that, you need to have a minor child basically or a disabled child who lives with you and you pay their costs of living and so on. That filing status extends for another two years after the year of death. Brian, you've been listening to all the information that we've been talking about that's in Mike's book. Would you like to add anything to what you should do as soon as a spouse dies? Number one thing would be figure out if they had an estate plan in place. Usually if you're their spouse, you do know and you know where those documents are, but step one would be locate them and make sure things go off in the right direction. A good point, know where those documents are. Okay, now we're going to get into the social security question. But Mike, without getting too deep, because this can get very, very deep. What happens to social security when one spouse passes? Yeah, so there's three primary types of benefits to be thinking about. There's also, I guess I'll say a fourth one that we'll cover real quick, which is there's a lump sum death benefit. It's just a flat $255 that you get one time, so it's not a big deal, but you will get that amount. Other than that, there's three primary types of benefits to be concerned with. The first is child benefits. And so that is for, if you have a child who is under 18 or under 19 and they're a full-time high school student, or they are disabled with a disability that began before age 22, then that child can receive benefits on your deceased spouse's work record. And that's just called a child benefit. So you'll usually want to file for that as soon as you can. And then there's also a similar benefit. It's the same benefit amount. It's called a mother-slash-father benefit. And that is if you have a child in care who is under 16. So this one cuts off at an earlier age, so under 16 or disabled. Then you would get a benefit as well. So your child gets a child benefit and you get this mother-slash-father benefit. So those are if they're minor children. Then the third type of benefit to be concerned with is a surviving spouse benefit, sometimes referred to as a widow or a widower benefit. And for that one, it can start as early as age 60 or age 50 if you're disabled. And the super important thing to know about surviving spouse benefits is that you can file for that benefit at age 60 and that doesn't automatically force you to have filed for your retirement benefit, which means that you can file for your survivor benefit at age 60 and let your retirement benefit keep growing. By retirement benefit, you mean my own work. I'm working still. So I can get a social security benefit based on my spouse dying when I hit 60, but it doesn't affect my social security benefit if I'm still working. You don't have to still be working, but it doesn't affect the retirement benefit based on your own work record. So you can let your own retirement benefit based on your work record allow that to keep growing till age 70. So you basically get to collect this surviving spouse benefit from 60 until 70 and then file for your retirement benefit at 70. Or you can do the opposite. Basically, you can file for your retirement benefit as early as you can at 62 and let your surviving spouse benefit grow until it maxes out and that maxes out at your full retirement age. So you can collect your retirement benefit from basically 62 to 67, or it could be 66 and 10 months or something like that. But so the general idea is you file for whichever of these two benefits is smaller, file for that one immediately as early as you can pretty much, and then let the other benefit continue growing until it maxes out either at your full retirement age or at age 70. And where will people be able to get information about this? Sure. So the book covers all of these topics after the death of your spouse. My book, Social Security Made Simple also covers it. Social Security Administration website is great, frankly. It's important to understand with any social security topic, just like with any tax topic that if you're just looking at a, you know, quote, plain English page on the SSA website, like an FAQ page or something like that, they're doing their best to explain it in plain English, but that doesn't mean that this is precisely what the law says, right? There could be exceptions that aren't mentioned on that page or maybe they're giving you, this is mostly how it works, sort of explanation. So that happens sometimes. It's important to understand that that on those sorts of pages on the SSA website, it's a very credible source, but it might not be precisely exactly how the math is actually going to work in the real life situation. So the last question, and this will be for both of you, and I'm going to chime in on this because I'm actually involved in this part. You know, one person is doing all the investing and they're the financial person in the relationship and they die. Should the other person go out and hire a financial advisor to help them with their, all of this, all of the investment side of things now that they've had this portfolio dumped in their lab? What do you think, Ryan? I mean, from your perspective, what have you seen? Yeah, no, absolutely. Mike, just discussed, and there's so many situations where not necessarily immediate, but financial decisions do need to be made that sort of impact investments. And if you're not prepared to make those decisions yourself, then you should definitely hire a professional just as you would before the death of your spouse. What do you think, Mike? Yeah, similar, similar answer where just like you would before the death of your spouse. So if you're in a situation where you don't feel like you're qualified to make this decision on your own, getting guidance is helpful. Of course, the answer to that question might be different than it was while your spouse was still living because perhaps the two of you collectively were qualified, but now you don't feel qualified on your own. I will also note that it's not something you want to rush usually, again, just because you have some life insurance proceeds that came in doesn't mean you need to get it invested within the next month. You're going to potentially miss out on some returns and that's okay. It is a big decision and therefore you do not want to rush it. Also, just like with when you retire and you have an IRA that you are considering rolling over to a 401k, that makes you a target for certain financial advisors who just want to collect a commission as that money moves. It's the same thing here. If you're in a transition period, that can make you a target for certain people who want to collect a commission now that suddenly there's some money that either life insurance proceeds or death benefit from an annuity or simply the portfolio that your spouse had been taken care of and now you're taking care of it, there might be, there might be, there are people who are going to want to try to earn a commission off of that. And so it's important to be careful with regard to who you hire. I'll just add my two cents here. I've been doing this investment advising for 35 years and 25 of those have been basically on my own with my own company. And people have said to me, Rick, my husband or my wife, I've left instructions for him or her to call you if something happens to me. I'm going to be self-managing my own portfolio. Then they do. And they do a good job. But if something happens to be my husband, wife is going to call you. In 25 years, I have never received one of those calls ever. And why is that? Because the spouse doesn't know me. Haven't talked with me or been involved with me ever. I don't think it's because nobody has died. I'm pretty sure people have died. But the spouses are not going to take that instruction. Someone else is going to get in front of them first. And it's not going to go the way you want. So if there's going to be an advisor relationship, if that's what you want your spouse to do, that you need to establish that relationship together first so that he or she knows this person. And then there's a higher probability things will happen the way that you would like them to happen. So with that, any closing comments? Ryan, you have any final thoughts? Yeah, I guess everyone should consider having an estate plan. I guess like we discussed, not everyone needs one. But I think everyone should at least consult an attorney and and figure out if they do and what the advantages of having one are. Myself included, there are a lot of attorneys that don't charge for this consultation. So if you're not in Utah, you're not in California, find one that does and talk to them and see how you might protect yourself and your loved ones. Mike, what do you have to say? Estate planning. So I don't personally do estate planning as I'm not an attorney. It's an area that falls under the broader area of financial planning. And I think it is possibly the neatest part of financial planning because it's by definition selfless that you're taking care of people who you care about. And a lot of times people don't want to do it because oh gosh, you have to. I mean, you're thinking about unhappy things. You're thinking about what happens if you become incapacitated or if you die. But it's all about taking care of the people who you care about, the people you love. And that's it's important to take some time to do it. It's an important part of financial planning, even though it's this unhappy topic that you have to think about. But people feel better after doing it. And it really does take care of the people who you love. Well, that's that's a great way to end. Thank you so much for joining us today. I think I have more questions now than I had when I first started the podcast. But thank you so much for joining us, Ryan and Mike. I appreciate very much all your insights. Thanks, Rick. Thank you, Rick. This concludes this episode of Bogleheads On Investing. Join us each month as we interview a new guest on a new topic. In the meantime, visit bogelcenter.net bogelheads.org The Bogleheads Wiki Bogleheads Twitter Listen live each week to Bogleheads Live on Twitter Spaces The Bogleheads YouTube Channel Bogleheads Facebook Bogleheads Reddit Join one of your local Bogleheads chapters and get others to join. Thanks for listening.