 Well, Alan stole my thunder about age jokes, but yes, the reason we are doing this is it was striking that we had some very senior architects at our last event and some giving some very, perspective is based on a lot of experience, but we know that one of the things that the AEA is trying to do is to build a profession of enterprise architecture and be the professional body for practicing enterprise architects. And there are a lot of people younger than those who were on the set last time around. So we thought what we would try and do today is not only get a younger perspective, but also a somewhat regional perspective, the view from Spain. So that we're trying to kind of achieve both those things with this session. And we've had a lot of help in putting this together from the local chapter of the Association of Enterprise Architects. So first person I'd like to ask up and join me is Juan Abal, who is the chair of the local chapter here in Madrid. He's been very helpful in putting it together. So welcome Juan. Have a seat wherever you would like. And next, Mario Gomez Valesco is one of our young enterprise architects. So come join me. Welcome. Daniel. Daniel Aguardo Perez. Thank you Daniel. And Ignacio Marcias Jareño. We I'm doing my best with the names, but thank you for putting up with me. We were due to have one other panelist with the hardest name to pronounce. So unfortunately she can't be with us and I don't have to embarrass myself with her name. But apparently it's not just me. She's from the north and the names are harder up there. So anyway, I'm going to rather than have me introduce these these folk, they're going to introduce themselves a little bit about who they are and what they do. And we'll start with Juan if we may. Well, as you can see, I'm not one of the young practitioners. But I'm here because I am the president of the Spanish chapter. And I have been working in IT for all my life. That it's a lot of years now. And first, as the professor at university, very, very good years that and then working for the Spanish administration, also I know very well the Spanish administration, and then working for IBM. And in the last years, I have been working in enterprise architecture in Spain and Europe and in Latin America, big projects. And well, I have I try to train and to mentor young architects to follow this career and to show them what is all about and how they can progress in their careers. So I'm very concerned and involved in this training of young architects to follow this career. So maybe that's also why I'm here in this part. So my name is Daniel. I have two years of experience in the IT world because I'm 26 years old. And I started in the IT architect career now. And I am knowing this fantastic world. And I hope to be able to grow in this area. I am focused on cloud computing right now. And I started as in an IT program, learning about cloud computing. And now I am trying to grow in the cloud architect career. Hi, my name is Mario Gomez. Currently I work in IBM. I joined IBM six years ago. My first role was an application architect for financial service sector, specifically in payment area. And now I'm a first-grinder architect. And I'm very, very interested in this enterprise architect role because I studied business and financial. This is a mix between IT and business, I think. Thank you. And hello, my name is Nathan Matias. I joined IBM approximately six years and a half ago. I joined IBM as a graduate training program. I did about two or three years as a system administrator working for this VMware. And for the last, let's say three years, I've been working as an IT infrastructure architect. I've been working mainly in new proposals, new engagements, and in part in the outsourcing part. And I'm also part of the, let's say, the lead architect in two contracts inside of IBM in strategic outsourcing. And I'm interested in this event mainly because I work a lot with the infrastructure part. And more and more I'm starting to see that I used to think that the infrastructure was the most important thing. But I'm seeing more and more now that we need to get closer to the business and that what's really important is the business. Okay, I think we'll hear more about that later. But thank you all for the introductions. So as we've heard, we've got some experience, some of you have more than others experience of architecture work and maybe started with an IT background. So what did you know about architecture when you started your current job? Anything that you'd learned? Or did you even know about it beforehand through university or your past? Anyone who wants to have a go at that one? Well, I started computer engineering. So I don't know about the rest of the countries, but in Spain, computer engineering, it's all about developing and programming. So you could have a little bit of architecture, but very, very little and very far from enterprise architecture. As we said, I studied business and finance. And for me, architecture was an arising system or something like that. Okay. Hey, I didn't know this role in the university. I studied computer science and I didn't have any subject about business, about financing, about economic themes. And I didn't know the architect role. And even when I started at IBM, I didn't know this role. It's a few months ago when I started to know what this role does and what's important is this role for an enterprise, for a company. And Juan, you obviously started doing other things and then moved into architecture. Yeah, well, it was since the beginning mostly because it's in the situation in Spain is quite, it's not very good about architecture. In fact, there are engineers and there are some studies about engineering or class of engineers, but there is not a computer science curricula like this, like in other countries. The most similar to computer science was what I did many years ago that was from physics to computing. It was like computer science, but it's no longer available. Now we have the engineers and all they learn is programming and designing system, but not from an architectural point of view. And in fact, from the Spanish chapter, we started a study last year about the situation of the architecture and the enterprise architecture in the Spanish universities, what they think about that if they are interested or not. And unfortunately, we discovered that a few of them were interested in enterprise architecture. And this is the real situation. So it's quite difficult for people that want to be an architect or an enterprise architect to have a clear idea about what is this, what is this role, where they can begin, where are the studies that they can do in the university or in other places. And this is something that we have to change. Well, that whole point about how do I get into enterprise architecture and what's the career path for architects, how do I best prepare myself? That's something that's not unique to Spain. That's probably the most common thing that we get asked at the AEA around the world is how do I do that because it's not clearly defined at this point. So in fact, I was in Mexico last year and it was in a meeting organized by the Mexican chapter and the presenter asked a question to the audience about what do you think is the best career for an enterprise architect. And there were not the consensus. Someone said that the best is some engineer because you are used to rules and the proceedings and the budgets and so on. Others said no, no, it's better software engineer because you know about applications, about IT. There are no consensus. So I think this is something that we have to think about and to develop, to set a more clear path for enterprise architecture. So how did you get into enterprise? What I heard I think was that you don't have an opportunity or you didn't have an opportunity to learn much about enterprise architecture at university. So you started a job and you start to hear about it. Is it you get a taste of it on one project or is there a in your organization, is there a career path for architects right now? Or how did you as individuals land up starting to be interested in architecture? I think that to be an architect is more an attitude that a job preference or a role preference. Because an architect has to be worried about an overview of everything that is involved in our project or is involved in this case in a company. And there are people that is not so worried about the overview but in the depth of a theme or a part of the project. So in my case I like to know the overview of more things or many things more than a specific path of an enterprise or of a project. So I started in the architect role for these reasons. How did you first do architecture or find your way into architecture? Yeah in my current company IBM it was an enterprise architect role but it's necessary a lot of years to knowledge and to access this kind of role and for me it is a very long view for I can access to enterprise architect is my opinion. Well in my case I was working as a system administrator so I kind of got a little bit bored or I saw it was a repetitive task at least. So I wanted to face new challenges so the architect the architect role appeared and at the start I saw it was quite challenging. I saw a lot of things a lot of challenges but after all it's something that I like to do. At the end I like to have a greater view. I like to see how everything works from start to the end. Before I used to only see a little part of the whole system we could say and that's the part I like. And have you had any training opportunities specific to architecture? Is it on the job training or the certifications or other mentoring anything like that that you've been able to take advantage of inside your organization at this point? Any training as an architect for example? Yes we have a career a career framework for this and I think that mentoring is a very good point for everything for any learning plan but for an architect it's difficult to have a specific address to get this role because you have to know about many things and for example for enterprise architect you have to know the business of an industry and it's difficult to learn about this from the IT provider point of view because it's difficult to reach the business processes to know the business direction these kind of points that you need to be a good enterprise architect. I think that if we could involve in a client company or in another industry company that let us see the direction of the business process we could learn more about this role and we could grow in this area more properly. Juan is that a role that the local chapter can help play do you think some mentoring and some sharing of experience from those who have been practicing? Yes this is one of the main objectives is to create awareness about enterprise architecture and to show the young people from the universities or from any company that what they are working at to show them how they can follow this path what they have to do in terms of training in terms of mentoring also in terms of what projects in what sectors because they need some guidance until now we have had very difficult days you know the crisis and so on but we are starting now with more interest and this is something that we feel from our companies that they are getting more interest in enterprise architecture and this is a good chance to go in this field but for these young people they need some guidance and this is something that from our Spanish chapter we are trying to do we also have plans for webinars not only related to one concept but also from for the career to show them how they can start and how they can progress in discovering there's different companies where where they are this is our some of our main and one of the I think one of the main of the more values resources for training is mentoring is staying with a senior architect trying to learn from him or from her and be a shadow or be something like that because if not it's quite difficult to to learn it's very complex to learn but if you learn from someone that has practitioner has practiced for many years it's very easy and it's a very convenient way to to learn in my case I did a program training course called architecture thinking but in this in this course is more focusing to to resolve the business requirement and not understand the business requirement I think well in my case also I did the same that Mario did but in my case what happened is I did it before start doing my role so right I did the course I didn't understand a lot and now if I would redo the course I think I would understand a lot more to you yeah yeah so one of the things I'm hearing is that the role of enterprise architect in Spain is still relatively I don't know about new but relatively rare maybe it's the the a few larger organizations that that have those have those roles do you think there's anything that that that we can do at the at the open group or the AA to help spread awareness or is there do you think there's a movement already starting to build you mentioned one that you feel there's some more interest inside your organization but is it is it shared in say a typical Spanish company no really we are we are receiving requests from the Spanish companies about the enterprise architects to to work with them and to to make some consulting services and this is something new for us because there were only the the big ones and not that he convinced also but we are now receiving more requests from our clients about the enterprise architect so I think that this is because the the work of the open group of the the association of enterprise architects is is is how do you say going to the these companies they are realizing that they have to do something to to improve to innovate to to to change their their companies and that they are realizing that they need this kind of of role so I think this is there is an opportunity now for for us for for the enterprise architects and it's a good a good journey for for for all the these these young people that want to to follow this career or at least they are interested in in follow this career so so it's something is changing and I think it's changing for for the good I think I heard Fernando say earlier that enterprise an enterprise architectural approach isn't really an optional thing anymore it's you've really got to do it so if that's if that reflects a feeling here as well then I'm sure it's going to take off so would you see that that there needs to be a for for the Spanish businesses the Spanish organizations as they are at the moment do you think there needs to be a certain style of approach to enterprise architect team in in Spain as opposed to elsewhere are there any particular local issues or cultural things that would affect how that how how it would be approached well the the main problem is that as we have had very soft years the companies have not hired people and in fact the unemployment in Spain for young people is more than 50 percent and that's one of the problems that we have to to bring here young architects because there are no young architects in the companies in Spain they have not hired anyone in the last five six years so this is the main problem we have to start making these groups of people interested in architecture and be hired by the companies to start doing that because there are a few architects that are doing their job as IT architects now some CIOs are thinking about creating these enterprise architect groups some of them have created but they are they have not a very clear idea about what enterprise architecture is so we have to do more communication and more awareness about what is this that and especially for for the for the people what is that what represents how they can work this is a career they can follow and start giving this idea to the companies in Spain that the only way to to go out of the crisis and to the progress in the companies is to know where to go and this is what the enterprise architect is about so but I think I am positive and optimistic in in this way but we need that these companies hire young people because this is the only way so let's hope that in the next months years they will hire more young people to create this architecture practice and start going on yeah yeah one of one of the things that we hear when we hold these events at different places around the world is that the the value of enterprise architecture is often more clearly seen when in situations where maybe there is a need to start reducing cost or or building from a situation where there's had to be a lot of a lot of cost so maybe the time is is right for Spain right now let's hope so I should have said before we started if there are questions from anyone in the audience then please do let us know raise your hand or or something and Fernando has kindly agreed to translate if there if there's a need to I know we've got we've got one over here um I can see Sonia won't need to translate will you so but um if you could say who you who you are and where you're from Chris I know who you are it is working thank you I'm Chris Ford with the open group I'm the VP for Enterprise Architecture you've mentioned this but I wanted to ask the the folks directly what advice would you give colleagues trying to transition into the enterprise architecture or a domain architecture role based on what you understand the role to be today versus what you understood before if I was and I wish I was your age okay looking to transition into this kind of career what advice would you give to me I think that you you use to to focus or in 90 or in business so my advice is that the the engineering the people that is studying degrees like computer science or something like that that is the starting for being an architect usually my advice is that these people has to be more interested in business and in the problems in his country or in the world because it is going to be a key point for being an enterprise architect not only IT or technologies my advice will be a deep knowledge of the industry not only IT it's necessary to understand the industry involved in the IT project and this will be my my advice well my advice would be first to warn him that he's going to run into a lot of work a lot of trouble a lot of pains not sleeping that would be the first one and the second one I would say that what's nice of being in this part is that I think it's one of the parts where you can influence the most that you can talk to the people in the company that decide and that you can bring your ideas and actually see them change sometimes when you work in a little part you can do little changes if you go higher higher influence you have and that's something that I personally like and I see how it reflects after any more Sonya sorry hi hi I'm Sonya was working hi I'm Sonya Gonzalez from the open group I'm the foreign director for the architecture forum and I have a question for you about the enterprise architecture is really about business and strategy so how do you define any kind of approach or strategy into the association to make the market understand that it's really a business issue and not only a technology issue well well in the Spanish chapter we try to to show these practitioners that it's the the combination of business and technology sometimes someone's say that it's better or you might be most focused on business and transformation and even you you don't have to to have the broad knowledge about it others have the just the opposite opinion but what we're trying to do is to to show the the the IT architects that they have to acquire business skills it's not only IT you have to succeed in and as an enterprise architect you have to start as as Mario said start to thinking about the business about the industries about the problems that our clients have in the in the daily business and in this way you can be able to to make this link between IT and business this is something that in our efforts to to show what is enterprise architect to our associate associates and and the companies and the Spanish companies something that we have we we try to to show them not only the IT but the business the transformations the linking and what is the tradition and exactly but this is something that and this is what I'm worried the the young architects they are focused on IT and for them and this is like when I when I was like them IT is everything that I I I need I'm very comfortable in being an IT architect because I love technology and this is what I like but in in some time in some point you have to to receive some advice from senior architects to show you that there is something more and that maybe in the next year the the focus will be upper in more in business that in IT but someone has to show you and have to to to teach you and to show you the path because you by yourself you are very comfortable in IT and probably you you don't know what is that there are other things and you can have another careers and other paths and it's important to show them that this is the case and and you have these opportunities I know that one had mentioned that the local chapter did a study with with universities to gauge levels of interest in enterprise architecture here and I know from talking with members of the chapter before Spain has some very top business schools some of the highest ranked business schools in the world is there are you sensing any interest from them or is it more from the the undergraduate school this is a lesson learned because we focus our study on the traditional careers telecommunications informatics and so on and we left the business studies of these academies out of our study but now that we know that there are most of them are not interested or present little interest in the architecture maybe we have to change and we have to consider that maybe you have to focus in this business studies and these business schools because maybe some of the people that are accessing these studies come from technology and this can be the perfect mix for for this promotion of enterprise architecture so this is something that this year we we like to do something like the same that we did last year but more focused on business schools and what were the way down I learned about that okay I think there was another question one here and one over there Mohammed from information technology authority Oman my question is to the open group people here the CEO and Spain chapter do you think the enterprise architecture should be part of the IT program or should be enforced in the university programs especially the computer science computer engineering and especially here we are we want to balance between the the idea is that you know from the bus business aspect the the students are not that having the good experience in the business but while they are mainly focusing on the IT and technology and also if you keep them without awareness in their study when they go out they will be new and fresh especially we hear today that you know people they are struggling when they go to the market and so on yeah I think um should I have a go at that first one the I what we've seen around around the world is that there is no doubt a history of architects coming primarily from from IT and that the universities therefore have have not really focused on enterprise architecture now there are exceptions we are seeing whole enterprise architecture programs being offered by universities around the world the one that gets called out very often is Penn State in the US but we we know that there are a lot of others particularly at the post graduate level that are actually offering enterprise architecture courses specifically to to deal with the the kind of issues that you're you're raising and the awareness and prepare people for a career in enterprise architecture I think in terms of should it should it be part of a computer science degree or or equivalent then I would say it would be but I'm probably prejudiced in that but I think equipping people who are leaving university who are thinking at least of a career in architecture whether it's domain architecture or enterprise architecture equipping them with with something before they leave is no doubt a good thing and some universities are I mean in the open group we talk about kind of TOGAF being TOGAF training of certification being a sort of entry level to architecture and then working up along to the open CA certification at the various levels there and some of the universities are now offering TOGAF training inside the university as a module for computer science degree so we're starting to see some of that around the world I can't speak for what what exists in Spain but I'm guessing that isn't happening yet but might happen happen soon but certainly as I mentioned earlier the the a very common question is okay so I'm I think I'm interested in this how do I get there because I don't really have the training and I think one of the things that the association has to do on a global basis is help capture that landscape of relevant experience certifications and training that will allow architects to progress from coming right out of university right the way through a career in architecture or to transition into that career at some point from some other some other field that they're in and that's something that we need to we need to get our arms around there are a few organizations looking at it and ourselves included but I think it will be helpful to capture that landscape and the thing I'd add is it's it's it what I found when we've tried to approach that is it's very difficult to do because there aren't many things that there aren't many subject areas that aren't relevant to architects so you very quickly you can get into areas of project management and and strategy and you know being able to know at least a bit about lots of different subjects all of those things are relevant so it's very hard to say oh well you don't need to worry about this you don't need to worry about that because most things you do so it is quite hard to capture but it is definitely something that that we need to focus on as an organization but I think that we we don't have to to relay only on the university studies or postgraduate studies because the enterprise architecture to be an enterprise architecture is a long way and you have to to learn many things and to practice years and years and what we are trying to do in in in the Spanish chapter is to to show the the different companies Spanish companies the value of the architecture and how they can establish a career and the career path and I remember that two years ago I was talking with the city of a very big retail company and because they they were interested only in in governance but they showed it well you have to govern something and someone so where are your architects do you have some career for them do you have some levels do you know that the open group has some certification level that you can follow and a very structured way of achieving this certification no I don't know what's that and explain the disguise what is that and they were very surprised that they didn't know about that right so they start thinking about that and they start organizing the architecture department around these specialities and about the this certification they they started to to set objectives of certification for their own people so they they they quickly realize that that has value has value for their people and for their company so this is something that we try to do not only for universities this is important also but also for the for the companies for the architects that are now in the companies how they can see beyond their daily work because most of them are doing their job but they don't have this broad vision they don't know about all the open group certification some programs and so on and this is some of our tasks show these companies that there is a lot of another world there that can improve not only companies but the people working in the companies they can provide them more value and that's important there was one more question over here yeah hello I am Josep Spaleta from Croatia well you all stressed that enterprise architecture is part of business or connected to business so what do you think if enterprise architect should be industry specialized for example in healthcare government or whatever or it should be industry agnostic yes yeah it is translation or not translation is it clear my my personal view is that there there's a role for there's a role for specialism within enterprise architecture and experience within particular verticals but a lot of what we talk about as what is involved in enterprise architecture that the skills involved they are to me industry agnostic they're they they're not dependent on one or another obviously experience in a particular industry is is something that follows and there are I think there are things like industry specific reference models that get created that are that are helpful but I think the skills involved in enterprise architecture are across I don't know all but certainly most industries will be my personal views I like to ask these guys if you feel that in your present job you have opportunities to to to acquire deep skills in one specific industry or your present job is absolutely cross cross industry what do you feel I think is is more cross and and I think is is more important to deep to be deep in an industry in a specific industry because in this way you can learn or you can see more opportunities of implement new architects or new architectures or or new projects that you have seen in other companies about the same industry and as as I told before for that I think it would be very important to know this industry from inside a company of that industry when I was application architect I am focusing in the financial service sector but now a day in my current position is a cross industry role in my opinion I think is necessary to split the enterprise architect role in several areas like in financial health care and other industry well I since I work in infrastructure part mainly I consider myself kind of cross but I see I'm a little bit far from the business so I think if I was closer to the business I would be more industry oriented and also I think what would be good is if you know the knowledge of the industry you can show what other clients are doing to to provide other points of view which is always something interesting okay and the second question regarding experience since you guys don't have gray beards do you have problem if people consider you green for this discipline usually people consider enterprise architects to have gray beards glasses and so on but you are you're not that kind so do you have problem with I don't know your status of enterprise architect in these stages thank you I think it takes several years to to be an enterprise architect so in my case I'm starting and I can't consider myself an enterprise architect yet so I have that experience myself since I think a lot I need to learn a lot and to have a lot of point of view to be an enterprise architect I think I'm a little bit far and I need more experience in that sense so your your your point is really is there a credibility issue when you're when you're starting out yeah at what point do you suddenly become incredible it's an interesting one I guess but I would say it's from delivering delivering value or being seen to be able to be be part of a team that has has done that and then you build your you build your brand just a plug for my session after lunch but but it's all it's all that kind of you've got to start somewhere and yeah you are in this diagnostic you have to have a lot of experience in government yeah no banking whatever and I think that without gray beard it's hard to have this knowledge thank you thank you I know there was a question towards the back there been enthusiastically waving his arm around hi Paul Homan IBM I classify you guys as digital natives I don't know if that translates Fernando if there's another term for digital native does that make sense to you guys I mean shake or nod your heads but you know Twitter Facebook very comfortable with all that kind of interaction what needs would you have of the open group what challenges would you put back in terms of enterprise architecture and togap and things because you are digital natives what do you think that means that something different potentially so did you did you understand the no question I think if I can summarize poorly probably but you're of a of an age a generation that's used to the digital world and social media and and all that goes with it so what can the open group do or an industry what can industry do to what are your expectations are they different to what they might have been if you've been older that rough rough assessments so because I think the digital social media and the digital digital age is affecting all of us and you guys have grown up with it and others have had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it but you have the your for you it's it's natural to to think of things digitally and think of screens being touch screens and and things like that and what what would you expect would be different I think is the question from the industry groups that do you have expectations that are different than if than if you rolled it's hard hard to answer because you don't know what the expectations of the older guys are but you want me to translate this question for you guys Spanish this I think it's a difficult question but in my case I use social media to be informed about the things that happen in the world so in in this way it it can help to know about business about market trends about some areas that in other case you you don't have access and maybe with Facebook Twitter you can see in an overview what what is happening I have a question for for you and for Juan and it's ready the the currently technology is ready to to assume a thousand or millions of new users and is this is is there a scalability of of data model and for assume this new system of engagement I'm a wrong person to answer that question but I think it's certainly it's certainly an issue that we hear here raised is how do we how do we keep up whether it's whether it's with big data or anything else but the technology usually manages to keep up but what we do with it and how we how useful that becomes and how we scale to to manage that is is the problem that I hear expressed but I think one of the things I I I detected in Paul's question but may or may not have been there was there's a certain way of of learning about enterprise architecture currently particularly toga there are ways of learning it and and then taking an exam and maybe things could be more digital in their approach for for you and your and those that follow you entering the profession it's you know are there other ways of it's already an online exam for example to take toga for an exam but are there different ways of learning that are more like what you're used to in the in the tools that you use so I think that's certainly something to to think about for those who are who are providing the the training and and for us at the open group to think about how we can how we can take that next step so we try to do something like that yeah in our our learning programs and it was some kind of interactive system to teach the young architects how to proceed in real case so it was like a like a computer game yeah so you assume the role of an architect and you have to design something and the system was guiding you and proposing some challenge and evaluating your your success or not and it was really it was not a big success some people say that it was too simple or say that it was a waste of time or they say that it was the future it was mixed and we are evaluating how to do that but at the beginning it was like a good approach for this kind of digital people that have worn in these systems but this was not black or or white it was different different responses so I don't know if for learning toga for example for learning for an open CS certification these new technologies cannot can provide something of real value or not it's something that we have to see we have to test and get the feedback to see if it's good or not but it's I think it's worth to to try to do that any more questions from there there's one in the middle there I think Fernando thank you Abdel Al-Qadi from shift technologies Dubai I just want to go back to the question about whether toga is industry specific or not actually if we look at the if we analyze what it takes to do architecture today we see that there are three key elements in delivering architecture value the first one is you need to understand the methods and that's where the toga part especially the ADM component of toga is essential and that is definitely industry agonistic so the methodology dimension of a project yes it can be independent of the industry in which we are delivering the architecture work the second component is the knowledge of the industry itself so this is where accelerators like business reference models application reference models and other tools can be actually very useful to guide and support the execution those can actually bridge the gap and experience and help the architect deliver more effective solutions to the customer but those usually take time to build and gray hair is definitely required to achieve them the third element that I think is also very important is communication knowing how to communicate the value and this also takes experience and relates to attributes that are personal in nature and are hard to train because they relate to the personality of the person delivering so if we look at the three elements the methodology the industry knowledge and the the personality or the communication skills I think there is room to initiate the training and to help accelerate the evolution of that but there's a lot that would still require time and experience and for sure mistakes to become an effective architect so one just last recommendation a life insurance would be a good sponsor for the open group I think with our age average it can be a good a good option it's a thought there's a good thought I think I've got a more question over here Fernando and then right and then that will be thank you yeah my name is Saif Al-Khouri and from Abu Ghaz initially I would like to thank all the focus for the courage really we appreciate it to be in the stage that's achievement and my question I'm wondering whether you are using any tools and whether it helping you it's mandatory to have a tool or not from your experience thank you what do you think are you using any tool in your in your daily work now architecture tools in my company we had a tool for enterprise architect I think call it software system architect a retina system architect but I I don't use it well in my case I know there's also solutions for our tools inside but the truth is that we normally don't use it interesting no it's it's difficult to find the right tool and because to use a tool for enterprise architecture like the ones that we have here you have to to have some knowledge about what you are doing and this knowledge comes from training and for experience so in these guys for example are just beginning and they are doing IT architecture so maybe these tools are too big too complex for them and maybe with some over point of service you it's just enough for them but I am convinced that an architect has to use tools and has has to be an expert using these tools the proper tools for the job but it's difficult to find the right one and there are some exhibitors outside who would like to show you that theirs is the right one so do go and see them I think there was was there one Maggie in the middle was one more question and then we'll be at lunch at that point thank you this will be a very short question I'm Brian from Huawei and this question is relating to some vertical specific a while ago I hear that that there are interests from very organization asking for EA so I would like to ask within Spain do you notice any telecom companies adopting the enterprise architecture disciplines and if it is what are the key drivers thank you well in fact they they have adopted the standard framework for telco but I have experience at least in both a phone where we try to develop an enterprise architecture with no much success because they they stopped as an application portfolio assessment and that's all we did and the the other one that is France telecom yes they they try to do something because they see value about the enterprise architecture because they have there is a very gap or there was a very big gap between applications and business and technology and they feel that they have to to to have some trustability because it's it's it's hard for them to to have this gap and about Telefonica they started something but I don't know if in the last years they have succeeded in enterprise architecture but my my feeling is that in this sector specifically they have not had many attempts or many tries to to establish a good enterprise architecture and it's a pity because they need it because as you know they have been many fusions and acquisitions in the last years and it's a mess what they have and and and they don't they don't know they don't have a very clear idea about the whole architecture and what is important what not and what is the transition that you have to do so it's a room for improvement a lot of room for improvement in this in this sector now excuse me I think I can provide Sami put about Juan also regarding the telco so what do you think has been the key inhibitor in these telcos is it culture or is it people not reluctant to change or now it's speed because creating and documenting the whole enterprise architecture takes months or years and in in the in the last years the telco companies have been in the hurry to to do things quickly and with profit and with low cost and they had had no time to to start thinking about creating this enterprise architecture so maybe now that the the market is more or less stable in terms of the companies that we have now here in Spain maybe it's the right time to start doing this job but in the last years it was really crazy with many acquisitions and they had no time for that really so we are out of time but I know Judith is it a question or a comment or is it one quick one then please where do you see enterprise architecture being done mostly right so mostly being all the different domains because what I'm seeing is lots of service providers learning and understanding enterprise architecture but very few unique businesses outside of the industry the IT industry that we're in and I wondered what your views were about why that was happening whether it was because inside genuine let's call them customers all the barriers they actually are looking for services from other people to provide the architecture skill or are they are they expecting that there is some skill that they need to have in their organization so my question just to give you that clarity is where do you see those enterprise architecture skills out in the service communities or actually in the organizations that you work for inside and how you see that balance developing over time so the and you're talking about Spain are you Judith specifically to Spain right so that I think the question is is do you have experience or or see the enterprise architecture work being in companies themselves or outsourced to service providers and it's mostly the service providers that are providing those services and obviously I think you work for a service provider so you know the good thing is that we are seeing this interest in the final clients in different sectors and this is something that we didn't see in the last years so I think this is because they they are realizing that they have to do something and they have to improve something in their companies to succeed and to go out of this crazy crisis but they don't know what to do and they have heard and they have read that enterprise architecture can help them in making this transformation so they are requesting help in doing that and this is but this is in the in the final clients not not in the service providers on the consulting firms but we are receiving these requests from the final clients in different sectors it's not a one only sector it's different sectors that are are feeling that they have to do something they think that enterprise architecture can help them in understanding what to do and provided the roadmap about what how to do that and they're asking for help so I think big opportunity now in Spain for for enterprise architecture so I know we are out of time and I know Alan would like to do some wrapping up but I'd really like to express our thanks for you all for coming up here it's a big step as I said earlier think of it as career development or whatever you want to do but it can be daunting and thank you all for your participation and and for your mentorship of these young architects and others so thank you all very much