 This is a presentation given by Brian Swann at Genetic Genealogy Ireland 2015, entitled Welsh, Norman and Irish Interactions Through the Past. Wales is the closest part of mainland Britain to Ireland, so migration across the Irish Sea to Wales in both directions has occurred throughout recorded history. Welsh family history is unique, but in some respects has parallels to Irish family history. These unique features of Welsh family history will be reviewed by Brian in this presentation. The migration of Anglo-Norman families into Ireland and then later waves of migration via plantation settlements has given rise to a whole range of surnames in Ireland whose origins are now being investigated by the combination of careful Y DNA analysis and family reconstructions. Brian Swann worked in the pharmaceutical industry most of his working life, and began family history in 1967. He's a founder member of the Norfolk, Difford and West Surrey family history societies, a member of the Society of Genealogists since 1972, and a member of ISOG since 2006. In 2009 he was instrumental in helping persuade family tree DNA to sponsor a vastly enlarged DNA area at who do you think you are at London Olympia, which has contributed to the growth and awareness of the power of combining DNA and documentary research in the 21st century. His wife is Welsh, he has a long standing interest in the history of Wales with special affinities to Dlamorganshire and West Wales. Brian starts off his presentation talking about the wonderful characteristics of the Welsh and what makes them so wonderful. So you have wonderful things like this, you know, what is your Welsh warrior name that you can go on a site and look at? And how did you learn to say this, which of course everyone who comes from Wales can manage to say. I can manage it about halfway through, but at least you may know that land which is here is church in Wales, so that's always pretty useful in the names of all the villagers. And the time you thought the pork told back looked like New York, a lovely St Davies Day outfit if you were a girl, doing maths in Welsh, etc. Okay, we all have to do a little bit of the revision that we've been through today, but as you know from other talks, why SNPs are now becoming very important, single base change on the white chromosome defines the branch of the tree, essentially you're reversible. I always like this analogy, why SNPs define the major branches of the tree down to the twigs, the why SDRs define the leaves. The SDR patterns can be used to assign happy groups and there's an assurance scheme, but the why SNPs are overall why SDRs, you must have the same SNPs for SDRs to match. And the white chromosome in general does not recombine fertilization so does not scramble its DNA. If it did, we could forget about doing any of the white chromosome family history, we'd all be doing autosomal DNA and we would be stuck at about 1800. So I'm a really, really big fan of white chromosome projects, essentially if you want to get before about 1800, in my opinion that's where you need to get to. So I'm sorry ladies, sooner or later you're going to have to go out and recruit that man to help you get forward. So that's it just in diagram form. The SDRs out here measure the leaves on the end of the tree, the SNPs measure the passengers here out towards the leaves. Another people today have talked in far more detail and I'm going to talk about how you can drill down into that and get into the SNPs. Again, the example by a gentleman called Ian McDonald has this lovely descent, as we've said, from white chromosome atom all the way down here to U106, these are SNPs that take you down here. And I love this diagram which again just shows you from that U106 SNP up the top here what's happened in the branching pattern since, well, this is April 2015, but it's just a very graphic illustration of the explosion of activity that's happened in this year over the past couple of years. I have to recommend books, Debbie's two books that are here in case you haven't seen them. Emily's book again, I highly recommend there's a way to look at genetic genealogy, the basics and beyond if you want to get into that. And I must mention this only because I've been on the stand here and a number of people do not seem to be aware of the British surname Atlas. It's a classic thing that happens at all the talks in Britain with the Gilda One name studies, but it's an Atlas put together in 2003 based on the 1881 census which gives you a wonderful way of finding out the distribution of surnames in England, Wales and Scotland. So if you're looking about people migrating into Ireland it's a really useful way to find out what's the size of the problem that you're dealing with. And the problem you face in doing Welsh family history, or at least I face, is I live down here in Canberley and the records I want are at the National Library of Wales. Down here I have a particular interest in Pembrokeshire's will become apparent and of course up in London. So you always need to be in three places at the same time. And even though we like to think a lot is online, you know only too well. There's always a massive stuff sitting in the record offices that you can't get to. So there's a small group of us that occasionally goes up to Aberystwyth in August to look at the material in the National Library of Wales. And I also regret with ever more passing time that I'm not an academic and have more access to all the university library facilities that they have in terms of books, etc. You're always struggling I think with one hand behind your back. So I call that the record offices triangulation problem. I mentioned a little bit about recruitment. Obviously it's an absolute key element of strategy. My experience is never underestimate the amount of time both to construct the family trees and select and recruit the people to test. If you listen to people here you think this is easy to do. I find it, in fact by far the most time consuming to do is to recruit the right people to do the testing. In particular conversations around who's going to pay, are you going to pay completely, split it 50-50, etc., etc. You have to adjust the conversation and enlarge the surname projects. It's impractical to research all the family trees involved. And of course with the Wales that's a very, very significant problem because of the patronymic surnames and the incidents of surnames involved as we will talk about. There's some wonderful books looking at the migration between and in the Celtic world. Jean Manco has talked about some of those here. A gentleman called John Cock has been mentioned also in this regard. I managed to get hold of this book in this August although it was published in 2007. And it's certainly the most detailed atlas I'm aware of. Artifacts that have been discovered both in England and in Ireland. Things like these Ogham stones, the Celtic crosses, things that have found a lot in Wales and in Ireland showing a mutual migration. There's only one problem and that is if you want to buy it now, it costs a mere £999 on Amazon to get hold of your copy. So I have one out there at the moment on Interlibrary Loan but it has some wonderful diagrams in it showing the relationship of various artifacts between the various places. And again, from this sort of map you get people in Ireland migrating out into Wales in the 6th and 9th centuries and so on. I've said through things like Ogham, Celtic crosses, these sorts of locations. So there's always been a movement both from Ireland into Wales and to some extent you learn if there's a migration in one direction there always tends to be a bit of a migration in the reverse direction. And with surnames, or Welsh surnames, if you look at the incidence, the top 10 surnames in Wales have an incidence of about 55% of the population. In England, the 10 most common give you 5%. So you're dealing with an overwhelming preponderance of very common surnames in Wales. And that's just, again, the rank order of the 50 most common surnames in England and Wales. One of the books I found useful in my thinking about this overall area, although it's quite old, is a book that was put together by William Reese, which is the Historical Atlas of Wales. It came out in 1967, 1972. It may have been updated in various bits, but I've never seen it yet updated in its whole. Something that certainly would be done to modern standard. But again, he talks in here about, you know, distribution of pottery, Rowan Britain, Rowan Wales, early dinnesties in Wales, isolation of Wales, then monastic orders, the Norman conquest we're talking about, and then pictures of West Wales and so on. The medieval bishoprics, the Welsh monastic houses. I don't know of any place where that sits in one book. And again, with relevance to Ireland, this is a map of Wales done in the time, West Wales and the time of Henry I. And you can see nothing relates to the sort of county, the county boundaries you're aware of at the moment. As the Normans have come in, the counties have been divided up. You have these Norman lords in charge of various parts. You know, Warwick down here to Laundra in an area around Kidwelley. An area that I've had a particular interest in, which is Chemise in North Pembrokeshire, which is the Martin family. The Clare family up here in Ceredigion, which is involved with the family that crossed in 1169, 1170. Haverford West, Milford Haven, which of course was a really important sailing port in those days to get across. And then further afield, if you like, from that, this is Wales, about 1200. You have the Marshall family here. These are William Marshall, who was Earl of Pembroke. And from about 1215 to 1219, was de facto ruler of England. He was the most powerful person after the death of King John in minority. Fitzmartins are still there. The King owns certain amounts. You know, Laundra's family out here. Marshall lands around here. And these are the Marshall lords ships in Wales. Which again, I don't know if that has any sort of parallel really in the Irish history, but they were very important in controlling all of these borderlands in Wales. And again, this is just really the passage of time. This is the Treaty of Montgomery, which involved Llewelyn Agriffid. I haven't really got time to talk about Welsh history in its overall context, but of course, Welsh history has just as complicated a history as Ireland does. And again, you have to buy one or two good overview books to deal with that. But certainly in the first 250 years, really, it was all about the Norman barons that invaded into the southern part of Wales. And they invaded into there, of course, because that was the best farmland. That was, you know, where the largest tracks of low-lying land were. So they spread out to the west here, out to Pembrokeshire fairly rapidly. They were into what was newborn here in about 1069. And they arrived at Pembroke and the castle there in about 1093 by a raid down from Montgomeryshire. So the whole of the south Wales and the borderline into Wales was subdued fairly quickly by the Normans. But conquering north Wales and into mid Wales took that much longer and really wasn't until they were the first when that changed. And other people have nice websites to show how many castles there are in Ireland. I think Wales, in fact, has even more castles per square mile than Ireland has. So again, this is Pembrokeshire. Pembroke Castle is down here. But it just gives you a feel of how many stone castles and earthwork castles there are scattered all over this part of Wales. You know, a huge number. Some of these are quite interesting. We were actually up at this one in Neven earlier this year because it happens to be known that that castle was built in about 1135, was abandoned by about 1196. So it provides a very interesting castle in terms of the history of castle building because it was in the transition, if you like, from the classic Motton Bayly wooden earth castles to stone castles. So masses of castles down there in Wales. Again, just to show the Normans hold on the peninsula. And as someone has said, the Normans coming into Wales, or I guess into England, was probably the biggest land grab in history. I just have to talk a little bit about how I got into interest in Pembrokeshire. People have heard me speak before know a fair amount about this. My middle name is Picton, which essentially comes from West Wales. It's one of these Anglo-Norman surnames that invaded into there. It's scattered around these various parishes in Wales. Particularly I was interested in this gentleman, Sir Thomas Picton, who was actually served as a commander of the Third Division under Wellington, was killed at the Battle of Waterloo. He's now buried in some horse cathedral. Because it's the bicentenary of Waterloo, we had a reunion down in West Wales for his memory this year. But the key thing I really wanted to focus on was this diagram here, which is to show that you can get a picton pedigree from this particular collection of books called Golden Grove Books. I'll talk a little bit about these as further on. Essentially, they're your equivalent of the Irish Hamelods or whatever, so it's just really to illustrate that Wales also has this bardic history that you have in Ireland. But I'm afraid not documented to anything like the same extent you have. Other people have said how fortunate you are in Ireland having this big collection of material. We do have this material in Wales, but not to the same extent. And I'll show some of what does survive later on in the talk. But just to make a couple of points, there's no dating information on this tree. But by using a combination of other records, you can start to date the people that are on this pedigree tree. And that's true of most of the pedigree trees that survive for Wales. They won't have dates on them. Just occasionally they'll have dates right down the bottom end, 1685 or so on. So you have to find a mechanism to date the people that are in your tree. And the other thing I point out is the bit at the top where it says advanide pembryture. And so the pictons are advanide, and advanide is a Latin word for foreigners. So when the Heralds recorded these pedigrees, they knew that this bunch of people with this surname were not the native Welsh people. They were interlopers that had come in. So these advanide pedigree, again, are potentially interesting for people that go out to Ireland because they give you a list of surnames where people have researched, if you like, as advanide. That's just really saying there's been a lot of invasions in Britain. We sort of know that. I did want to just show this thing. I'm talking about the People of the British Isles DNA Project, which is where this is taken from. What caught my eye when I first saw it again was they'd sampled down here in pembryture in West Wales. And what's interesting about that, and this is a slightly earlier version blown up, is it's been known for a long time down there in Wales looking at the linguistics and the area that it divides into two half, the north and the south bit. The south bit, really, is very anglified and the north part is really very Welsh. And there's quite a sharp dividing line between the two in terms of place, name, and so on, and it's called the Lansker Line. And you can almost see the just genetic evidence for the Lansker Line. And if I skip through these, that doesn't matter so much. But this is what the People of the British Isles say about the Welsh. Three Welsh clusters are most distinctive in completely lack of contributions from north and west Germany, northern France, at the largest contribution from west Germany. The Welsh may be closest to the original settlers that came to Britain after the end of the Ice Age, where there is no clear Celtic fringe, as often as soon as evidence of ancient British DNA in common with other British populations, especially in Scotland and Northern Ireland, less important than in contrast might have been expected. And again, this is what I was talking about. The differences between south and north Pembrokeshire, especially larger contributions from Belgium and Denmark, are consistent suggestions. This group may represent the area that is sometimes called Little England beyond Wales. This is because the farmers settled there by 102nd probably came from that part of Europe. So again, Welsh was interesting from that viewpoint. It seems to be probably the oldest genetic homeland left on the UK. And it will be interesting when the Irish DNA Atlas, which is obviously being presented about here, that data comes in to see if it feeds into this model as to what they have. It's unclear, though, whether this summary takes account of the normal invasions and settlement in Pembrokeshire. And there's also settlements by the Fleming's into these particular hundreds in Pembrokeshire encouraged by King Henry I. There's a series of volumes that are called the Brute BRUT, and that's the calendars really of Welsh history, which is equivalent to your Hamilton Islands as well, that was written down. And so they talk about the Fleming's coming in, or being invited in by Henry I, round about 1108 into West Wales, and settling there. So it's one of the most early defined migrations in that we're aware of in Wales. And so, I said, that's the genetic pattern that's in Ireland. And of course, Richard De Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembrokes-Trombeau in Badi Island, 1169, 1170, almost certainly from Pembroke Castle, Milford Haven, that sort of area there. So Welsh Ancestry, it's really quite simple in terms of things to look at. Two books, written by John and Sheila Rowlands. The book really that's essential to buy is their surname's of Wales book, which came out in 2014. So I'm not going to sit here and give you a talk on the history of surnames in Wales and where it evolves for. It is all really in their book. They've had a lifetime of work really thinking about Wales and surnames and where they came from. Just to give you some idea, you know, patronymic naming, surveys and transitions, surveys of names, glossaries of surnames, surveys of given names, and so on. It's for the use of the surveys. And a more recent book, 2015 by a lady called Beryl Evans who's at the National Library of Wales on Tracing Your Welsh Ancestors. So compared to Ireland, Wales is probably the best area right now for records online. Got all the censuses, all the parish registers for Wales, find my pass. Trouble with parish registers in Wales, they tend to start in 1750. And registers before that are the exception rather than all. Bishop's transcripts begin later. Particularly, we have wills and administrations from the 16th century to 1858. And they can go down to quite lowly people that are there. So again, compared to Ireland, we're that much fortunate in doing it. So again, if you're looking at Irish surnames or Anglo-Irish surnames, have a look at those wills in Wales because there could be migrations that happen from Wales into it. Certainly in later records, chapel records would be very important. They have their own problems in finding them. But I, you know, an example there, you often find that the chapel records, the passing concern or the minister concern had large areas to look after and had to travel in various areas between various parishes. Of course, not everything is online. Tithe maps is equivalent really, I would guess, to your Griffith's valuations that you have over here in Ireland. And again, there will be a project underway to put most of those online, I think, in the next two to three years. Land tax, again, survives for the temperature for these days, and for all counties, doesn't survive for miles and shares. Estate records are really very valuable as they would be in Ireland to help sort out families. Some of those have been brilliantly indexed. Others of them really say not much more than their 24 boxes of material sitting there. And unfortunately, just due to, as always, the state with archives and archivists in Wales, the chances of those getting indexed anytime soon are small. So you do need, as always, to find out where your ancestors lived and who owned the land, as true in Wales as it is in Ireland. But it can be tricky. And the final one here, again, caught the great sessions, which again, as extensive as the Chancery proceedings in England, prior to 1733 they are in Latin and virtually inaccessible, therefore. So once you went to Aberystwyth this August to try and have a look to break into those, and I can tell you even with my knowledge of Latin it's hard going to do that. So there's again, there's a massive material there. A lot of the people in Wales took cases on land and property, et cetera there, but they're virtually in close quarters. Okay, a lot of talk about the history of Wales, talk a little bit about DNA and a little bit about patrimony mixed to Ireland. One name study is running, really, at the moment, specifically on Wales at Family Tree DNA. There's the Wales Cymru DNA surname project with about 600 members in 2014, and the Welsh Patronymics project. If I look at those in just a little bit more detail the Welsh Patronymics again, designed to establish links between various families of Welsh or in the Patronymics systems because this could continue up to the 19th century in some parts of Wales. So a Williams could be just as equally a Jones, Evans or Roberts. And again, just to give you an idea of some of the sort of surnames that are sitting there in the Welsh Patronymics project. The Wales DNA Cymru project is a bit more selective. These again are a list of some of the names that are in the project, 646 members as of a couple of weeks ago and that's not complete as you can see those lists there. But the key thing in joining that is you must already have traced your DNA line back to the country of Wales in order to join this project. So it's a way of discriminating between people that actually have real ancestry in Wales as compared to people that think they have Welsh ancestry and join the other project. Having said that there are equally ordinary surname projects running covering most of the surnames in Wales that are common. I do have to say if you're a project administrator running one of the common surnames you need to have a certain fortitude to take those on. It certainly is something that I would be very hesitant to do. I have known in my time the person who was running the Williams DNA project and I remember him saying I'm spending all my time trying to group people into the right groups. Any thought of having any trees behind it forget it. And again the last I knew here had also disappeared so you need to be very hardy to take on those sorts of surname projects. Having said that of course in relation to migration into Ireland they're probably very important and the challenge and I don't have an answer for it is how you actually concoct a nice story to persuade the people to take the DNA test to do that migration. This is where you're very fortunate sitting here in Ireland with all of your nice history that is written down even if though we've heard from several speakers during the course of this what is written down and what the DNA actually says are two different things. So that's really me saying it in words. Wales has an extensive and long bardic history and pedigrees have played an important part in the legal system union. Just wanted to mention this guy in particular David Edwards he was really the person who tried to bring some sort of order out of this chaos by bringing in the idea of people at the head of the family tree and the descendants coming from there. The sort of organization really into tribes and before that there was really pretty much chaos in the system but he was the person to try and bring some sort of order into the system. So as I say Wales serves a half way house in this area if you like between England and Ireland. I want to come on a bit later and mention this work that has gone on at Aberystwyth University which relates to Peter Bartram's work. Peter Bartram is one of these people who will never see his life again. He spent about 50 years 60 years I would think. He died in about 2008 aged 100 and so he went around collecting all of the early Welsh genealogical tracts and put them up into volumes. So just to do that in terms of reading the documentation, pulling it together or whatever, it's a lifetime's work. And of course I'd like to think if you ever did that again you'd do it with the images and it would be indexed and so on and so forth. But he he has a heroic task to do that. And this is just to show really there's not all totally gloom in Dooming Wales. Okay, if you take the 10 most common surnames and if you're up here in North Wales you can get almost complete coverage of those 10 surnames. But down here in South Wales and on the borderline again, those surnames are not so common. So this is where I think your pattern of Welsh surnames may exist that relate into surnames that you can see in Ireland at the same time. And again the Rowlands who put the book together showed this I think very impressive diagram where they looked at about 25,000 wills in the National Library of Wales scattered across all of the hundreds that make up Wales and produced this contour map to show the decay of patronymic surnames in Wales down to the 10% level. So again you can see down in certain parts here, again in Pembrokeshire in West Wales, Southern part here, the loss of patronymics really happens quite quickly and in the border areas here to England. Whereas in Welsh strongholds here, you know, this is Kerrydegion and up here in Cynarventia into the 1800s in significant amounts. And again just to show that the marcher lands that all of this part here are the people that went potentially across to Ireland from here. Challenges you know full well from the invasions that have happened to Ireland, the people at the top survive, their names survive in the Irish records and you can find them. The people that went along with them by courtesy of Knight's service survive in the records there probably. So again the only way you have ultimately to see if they did exist is by DNA, to see if you can find connectors back to Wales. And that's just really just again to show some of the changes that can happen, this is really the rebellion of the well in Atgriffet in the 1200s conquering areas, taking it back from the Normans or the Norman marcher lordships. And that's a feature really of Welsh history for about the first 250 years under the Normans, so you have this fluctuating between the two. Let me just mention then the Bartram project this is running at the University of on the University of Aberystwyth website and essentially it takes about two sets of volumes. Bartram had a first set of volumes which was eight volumes which covered the period from AD 300 to 1400 he then had from 1400 to 1500 and the further 18 volumes plus editions. And again it's rare to find all of those in one place so there's a whole list of editions and corrections that he produced and when I looked there I couldn't find a couple of lists on the shelves of the National Library of Wales but again the editions and changes are significant. There is an equivalent of that to some extent on family search they've got a medieval family's Welsh projects they're talking about 350,000 individuals from 100 AD to 1700 again based on Peter Bartram's genealogies the thing is that's not being added to as I speak to you so it really is where it finished and that's part of this community trees project that they have on the family search project. I want to mention briefly again large collection of Welsh manuscripts in the College of Arms in London again based on these pedigrees again to all intents and purposes pretty much inaccessible to unfortunately. Some of that has gone into the Peter Bartram collection that I mentioned before but not all. I did want to show this slide which is from Bartram's collection which gives part of the list of the surnames that he identified as Advainite so you can go into that site you can identify surnames that are Advainite this is the one I mentioned but it gives you some idea of the sort of surnames that are in there so that's a partial cut off so you have to go into the full site to see it I did want to mention at least one Irish person here our dear friend Terry and of course because my interest in Pembrokeshire has to be clear I was always a bit surprised to find that Terry of course was Irish because these wogans up here in Worcester is a very well known place in Pembrokeshire so Terry is down here but again as you can see they've managed to track his family back to about 1800 here in Dublin in the Michael Wogun and they think he let blank links into these wogans at Ratcoffey in County Kildare and there came and come from a John Wogun who was a brother of the Woguns that I know down in Pembrokeshire and then ultimately this goes back to as a John Wogun again and why I've come across he was pronounced it right, Justicky R Chief Justice for Ireland in 195 for about 1304 and again his ancestry ultimately goes back to a gentleman here Gugun or Ogun which is the origin of the surname so again it certainly helps show that you can get these migrations of families from Wales into Ireland if they're at a senior level they can persist there for quite a long time and again all the way down to Terry Wogun that's the other bits to do with it that's just the history of some of the Wogun family and that's where it's localised today Tyrone Bowles maps even though he's not here it's very useful in looking at this with these types of surnames you can get other surnames that are associated with this Baldwin's another example which could have come across from Wales and the other one again fairly well known Roche, there's a Roche castle out there in Pembrokeshire again 29 separate ancestral grants one major ancestral branch five minor lineages and this one represents about 30% of the project members dating back to approximately 1,100 to 1,200 AD interesting this is in Hapagooe which is again fairly unusual for that part of the world and again the field goes on this is the Welsh in the shaping of Early Modern Ireland which is a recent book that's come out I won't dwell on that but again it's just to show that people are looking at soldiers, the settlers in Wales Welsh involvement in Irish administration Welsh administration opportunity for the Welsh in Irish administration Welsh plantations in Ireland Communities and networks in Early Modern Ireland and so on so what do we conclude from that Wales is unique it's not Ireland, England or Scotland and like Ireland with its loss of 19th century material Wales has good census records before 1800 migration out of Wales was not all that common and it's overwhelming a rural community so if you can localize your Welsh ancestors to an approximate area that is likely to be their homeland Paris registers a poor in terms of survival why DNA testing would be useful but not essential at this transition the challenge as I said really with Welsh family history is persuading the people to test for sure in relation to Ireland you will have lots of people that will have come across from Wales you have these wonderful annals that you can write up into a story although we heard a lot of talks to say that in fact the stories are probably wrong and the data should be looked at other ways in terms of where the surname came from we can't really pull those that sort of elements of the story into ordinary Welsh surnames but I think with the Anglo-Norman surnames we do stand a chance of getting people to put together the stories so that's really why I would be more interested in the Anglo-Wales stories because I think you can put the Anglo-Norman stories I think you can put the story together with the surnames I think the ordinary Welsh surnames are likely to be really important but it's going to be really difficult as to how you sell it to people thank you How many people have Welsh and sister in the audience? It's a problem to a few people and how many people have done the DNA test? Are you in the Welsh project? No Any questions for Brian? Welsh and sister Yes, we have two questions Brian, thank you very much for the talk I was just actually referring back to your map of the British Isles map and the sort of difference between the North Wales and the South Wales and I'm just very interested to know I don't know one of the speakers that we had here yesterday Gilbert was talking about the Irish DNA Atlas I'm wondering whether or not he will ever get enough specimens to link the South Wales expert with temperature and particularly the flaming signature that would be there It would be fascinating to do that I said when I first saw that map which was up at the Royal Society in 2012 I saw a landscape line sitting there genetically and I'm pleased to see when the final paper they also saw a landscape line I would like to think of course that also influenced their collecting samples down there to see if they could investigate that they must have thought fairly long and fairly hard about why to do it You might sit there equally and think what happens in the middle of Wales but equally if you go back in time that's where all the mountains are the actual amount of farming that went on there was very small so again it's a sample and an interpret just because those are always the lowest in total of population it looks peculiar when you see the map but if you don't understand any of the topography then you know Hopefully they'll get more recruits to the project they have a hundred and seventeen of the project now Jean-Claire will come to the area where they work on the project as well we're saying it might be up around five hundred or six hundred people so we've got another few years ahead of us but the more people we recruit the more granular and finer detail the results would be so we probably have a few interesting ethnic minorities falling out of that project in the next couple of years Just to sort of remind everybody that there was obviously an old English stroke Fleming dialect spoken until sort of honestly historic times where it was called Yolen which had a lot of Flemish words in it I should say actually on my way down here I called in and stayed with the lady who's actually got a grant to run part of the Fleming project looking at that area in Pembrokeshire where they settled and she'd actually gone to the people in Belgium and Netherlands given them a list of surnames of Flemish origin she's at least trying to do her bit I must admit I said to her at the end of the day whether you like it or not you're still going to end up doing a surname study it's unlikely to give you a Flemish signature but she's essentially gone about it the right way We have a comment on that from Captain Kennedy When as a former mayor of memory I'm very pleased with your observations of Ultima and Batman and we had a privilege of making him a free man of memory so he was very very much connected with memory and he was a great friend of the rich of Paris from Flemish as well so I would like to suggest that anything we can do to get home and go over a bit to get home and go out and be really on board I'm very pleased indeed and thank you for a very kind presentation You're probably in a better position to get hold of his DNA sample than I am Comment from Cathy Continuing that theme I don't know where this family tree came from but there's a John Morgan who is just this year of Ireland in the 13th late 13th century I think and there's a book published by Brendon Smith and Peter Driver called List and Inquisition It's called Medical Ireland It was published by the List Society and that is a fantastic resource for all the Anglo-German names of Ireland and Jumbo in terms of all over the place in Latin all the Inquisitions are happening in front of him so he turned up a lot but the an awful lot of the Welsh names in that are literally very expressions of Welsh or Welsh and simply with the Flemish they don't actually differentiate what they're concerned about The List and Inquisitions are probably the best source for Anglo-Gormans coming at the level underneath the greatest state of Ireland in the African-American period It's a fantastic resource and unfortunately they sell them in Britain and I enjoyed all of your presentations there I saw how it went mentioned at least twice in various things there from the documents that you had in your presentation Thank you very much for the presentation You're Mr. Brockman who is the equivalent of our north-touch McRibbish who will earthquake with the virus genealogy which fortunately universe dollars could work and produce a wonderful book on it Is there any chance that the Barclay genealogy will be digitized or indexed? You may have misunderstood what I said then Essentially, he did publish the ones I talked about the 8300 to 1400 came out in 8 volumes 1400 to 1500 came out in the further 12 volumes but again the number of places that actually bought those were really very small and then he also published the corrections to go with the volumes as well which was the slide that I showed there Now, I think the slide that I showed at Aberystwyth basically had taken those volumes and digitized and put them online so those are there but again, most of them don't have any dating information he divides them by generation he numbers them down from 1 to 15 if you like from 1 being AD 300 in segments of 30 but anything you may find by way of later dating information is not there and he stops at 1500 and of course some of the pedigrees go on to 1700 and actually catch up with the wills and so on and again, you need to look very carefully to understand those pedigrees can go down further as always, there's a lot of information buried in there but you need to read what the content is very carefully to extract the maximum amount of information out of those series of volumes Will somebody else be taking over his work to bring it up to 700 where it's possible to do so? At the bottom line I suspect not as always the Library at Aberystwyth got the grant to digitize it so that was a 300,000-pound grant for four years to put it online certainly the gentleman who was the previous Wales Herald of Arms a guy called Michael Powell City I know sent corrections and this type of thing up there to be incorporated at the early stage but you know what it's like in principle you've got to finish what you've got to do with the grant over that period of time and these are all the nice to do things but you know you're not going to turn the university into a an academic chart compiling exercise based on that so that's the frustration you get block grants to do a particular piece of work and then of course it stops When do you think they might actually complete the digitization of those genealogies? I've said that that's complete essentially online from that side of the university of Aberystwyth so it is online, yeah you just need to read it very carefully the bits as to how to make use of it it's not sort of online like terribly user friendly in my opinion anyway online but it's better than you know the alternative Any other questions for Brian? OK well it just remains for me to say thank you very much Brian for shedding some light on the Welsh Norman connections with Ireland and it's given us some direction to go in search of our ancestors and our Welsh ancestors Ladies and gentlemen please give Brian a round of applause Thank you