 Good afternoon everyone. Enrico, a man with a lot of hats, who clearly needs no introduction, will talk to us about consensually doing things together, so please welcome him. Let's say in Dublin, but this is not particularly related to Dublin Account Manager. It's just an introduction for people who might like one. So this talk is... there's a backstory for this talk. At that conference in Heidelberg I gave a talk. Who was there? Yes. Who has seen it on streaming... Yeah? Who doesn't know anything about it? Okay. The talk was about consensually doing things together. Somebody made a sticker. I talked about consensually doing things together by making parallels between different communities that are all about doing things consensually together, such as the anarchist community, the polyamory community, and another community that should probably not be nominated before 10 in the union. There are some stickers that are very nice. And Debbie and Franz distributed many of them, these ones over here. But all of this reminds me of what we ought to be doing. What we have a chance to do if we play our cards right. But it also screams to me if a lot of these stickers go around I'm afraid it's a false sense of security. I mean stickers doesn't mean we are actually doing things together consensually. Talking about consensuality in free software projects is unusual. Talk about relationships. This is a talk about relationship advice. Because it's the same thing. Debbie and he is a relationship between multiple people, a lot of people. In short, relationship, because non-consensual relationships in short abuse. I want to talk about relationships, not abuse, and I wouldn't want to have abuse in that year. Voluntary agreement, things in activity, sexual or otherwise. Without abuse or exploitation of trust or power of authority, coercion or threats. Consent can also be removed at any moment. Express their intent to participate and decide freely and voluntarily to participate. So decided freely and voluntarily to participate in that year. How many of you expressed the intent to participate? How many of you knew exactly what abuse in my point and requires awareness? Relationship, it's not like in that year it's the same. What is this about? Oh yeah, now your whole life of the next year and a half belongs to us. There needs to be awareness and being in a position of being able to give consent. So say I'm in a relationship and I say, oh, I decided I won't do laundry anymore. And if I say it when the other partner is tired or busy doing things, they may say, oh yeah, whatever. If I say it when the other partner has a chance to say, uh, why? Tell me more. And then take part in a negotiation, so okay, what's wrong with doing laundry, okay, maybe that you can do something else or we can have someone do laundry or something. And the two situations are very different. So consent requires being there and being in a position to express it, knowing one has other options and all that sort of things. And it goes about consent on free software, but on polyamory yes, then we're going to steal them. The people in Debian are more important than Debian. Personal boundaries are damaging to the self that we'll expand on this later, but you need to know what's good and what's not good for yourself before having people, before saying yes and no, when people ask you to do things. You cannot consent if you do not have a choice. This consent never overrides with the role of consent. You can always say no, even if you had just said yes. So that was the generally about consent. Getting consent from someone is not just forcing them to say yes with whatever means needed, because if I'm at the other end of that, I don't feel like that's consent. And that was about consent. Now relationships is the universal operating system and is made and maintained by people. The long-term health of Debian is a consequence of the long-term health of the relationship between Debian contributors. Debian doesn't need to be technically perfect, it needs to be socially healthy. If there's a technical problem in Debian, but Debian is socially healthy, then there is a community of people that can fix the technical problem. If Debian is socially unhealthy, no matter how good is the operating system, it won't fix the society under the people making it, with what software is so far. Maybe there's going to be a new package tomorrow that fixes people. Well, there's a psychologist in Emacs, but I used him, so I don't know how good that is. Please tell us more about using me. That was in the previous talk. The one I gave you now, you go and see it in the video that it covers in Emacs. So, healthy community. This is called Thomas Kilman Conflict Mode Instruments. I don't know what that means, but I like the graph. I will at some point post the notes they will have links. Can you describe the graph briefly? Yes. On the horizontal axis there's focus on the relationship or cooperation. The more one moves to the right, the more there is cooperation. The more one moves to the left, the less there is cooperation. On the vertical side there's focus on agenda or assertiveness. The more I'm down in the graph, the more I do not care for my own needs or for what I want or for my goals. The more I go up in the graph, the more I care for what I want. So, at the bottom left there is little focus on cooperation and little focus on my own goal. There is avoidance. I don't care. We draw from the situation, maintain new privacy, whatever. Moving up towards no cooperation, but I want my own goals. There is competition. I win, you lose. Zero sub game. I don't care about you all. I want this to happen. It will happen no matter what. Instead down, so no focus on personal goal, but focus on relationship. There is accommodation. You win, I lose. Conceit to the other party as long as harmony is maintained. Yeah, have it your way. I don't want to have a fight with you. I won't have what I need, won't do what I want, but at least you still love me. So some focus on cooperation and some focus on personal goals. There is compromise. I win some, I lose some. It's minimally acceptable to all. It doesn't damage the relationship. But it kind of feels like a trade-off for everyone. And maximum attention to goals and maximum attention on the relationship. There is collaboration. I win, you win. When we work together to expand the range of possible options to achieve win-win outcomes. So at the moment it seems we have a conflict and none of us can have all we want. And instead of fighting over it, we can cooperate over it to try and find out if there are other ways that we haven't thought individually about, but that together we may find of having something that really works for all of us. And these outcomes are easy to measure. It boots. It doesn't have conflicts. It installs. It runs on 32 and 64 bit machines. Yes. That's a big focus on goals and some of these goals are not achieved by software. So that focus on goals is very easy to see, release, and so on. So I think we've had a lot of focus on that. But what's more important I think for the long-term health of the project and for the current happiness of people in the project is focusing more on the relationship. And if we don't really achieve all our goals, but the relationship is good, it means if we haven't achieved our goal this year, we'll achieve it next year. If we only focus on goals, it means if we don't achieve our goal this year, we'll never achieve it. Because there won't be a next year with a community to work on it. So we move on to motivations. In this relationship between a lot of people, every one of us has motivations. How many of you do things in deviant because you want to? How many of you do things in deviant because you have to? How many of you do both? So this because you have to, means there's something... Should do. Right, I think I should do. Now that's very interesting. Should is a word which means I don't want to, but... It's quite interesting in relationship to realize when somebody says should, take care that it actually means I don't want to, but... Because, yeah, there's more such interesting words in relationship I can mention later. Like we, we is a terrible word. We really should be aware of that. We means I don't want to take responsibility for what I'm saying, so I'm pulling you into it whether you want it or not. Whatever are your motivations to be in deviant, some may be healthy, some may be unhealthy. Healthy motivations sustain the relationship. Unhealthy motivations to be in a relationship may explode spectacularly at some point. Movies are full of unhealthy motivations to be in a relationship. Movies with only healthy motivations to be in a relationship are boring. But, you know, like Italy is wonderful for tourism but not very good to live in it. It's the same with relationships. Better be boring and healthy than exciting and unhealthy. Motivation. Madame Fou created a wonderful, wonderful word for a kind of task in deviant which is aggaladriel. Aggaladriel is a task that you have to do otherwise Sauron takes over Middle Earth. And which is summarized by these slides. And by the way Frodo looks consensually into it. This is from Francesca Stoket, the Mimi Depp conf in Barcelona. There's some of that I think in deviant as well, and I encourage everyone to be aware of them. I remember with myself what motivates me to start a project of Pico Anante in deviant. I have an idea for something fun or useful or I see that something is broken and I have an idea how to fix it. If one makes a parallel with relationships, that second part may not work as well. But back to deviant, what motivates me to keep maintaining a project? Oh, nobody else can do it. Nobody else can be trusted to do it. Nobody else who can and can be trusted to do it is doing it. Or somebody is paying me to do it. So it seems I have a problem motivating myself to keep maintaining things. What? Others may be different. Yeah, others may have it differently. Yeah, that was me. You mean wrong. What? You mean wrong, or he means wrong. He doesn't mean differently. Different means wrong. I'm confused. Somebody else may do it differently. He corrects me. Or maybe it's wrong. So you said somebody else may be doing it differently. I thought you said somebody else may be doing it wrong, or differently wrong. There's another example of motivations. It takes me a little time. It's useful for me. It's fun. It saves me time to keep something running, to make a continuous effort to keep something running. Then if I don't care about it one day, it breaks in my face. Another example of motivation, it makes me feel useful. Is it healthy? Is it not healthy? It depends on people. I feel a bit scared by doing something because I feel useful, because the day I stop I become useless. So I can't stop otherwise, I'm very sad. Or getting positive feedback. It's the essence of why I'm doing something. Helps me in consensually deciding whether I want to keep doing it. If I don't know why I'm doing something, then I keep doing it by habit. And 20 years into a boring relationship, I wonder where did my life go? Motivation. One word of advice. Don't work as motivationers. What? Don't work as motivationers. Don't work as motivationers. These are examples of bad motivations. They have good motivations. Temples of good motivations. Raise hands. Because it's fun? Because it's fun, yes. Good for relationships as well. More? Please, I'd rather or I'm more likely to want to live here. Because it makes the world a place I rather like to live in. Yes, because it helps. It helps me learn new things, yes. It's also nice in relationships. It's aesthetically appealing. I can achieve a result that is aesthetically appealing with these people. It keeps me sane. Your audience should work as a motivational speaker. Because I really like what you said. Next topic, energy, is that thing which is measured in spoons. The concept of spoons comes from people suffering with chronic health issues. And it's a metaphor saying that you wake up with a certain amount of spoons and doing things will cost you spoons that you lose along the way. And when you're out of spoons you are done. You can't do anything anymore. And so someone with chronic health may require a certain amount of effort to be washing hair, making breakfast, because it's harder than others. And this metaphor is used in general to talk about energy one feels for doing things. So this is the example of washing hair, making breakfast, doing laundry. That are everyday tasks that may be hard for people with chronic illness. But we also have spoon costs in Damien. My spoon costs significant amounts of numbers here. But every activity kind of has a cost in energy. So say a routine task is one spoon, but a context switch is two spoons. Because I need to forget what I'm doing and get into the whole context of something else. There's a new corner case, maybe a lot of spoons, because it's something I never dealt before. And they need to engage all I have to try and understand and engage. Maybe find other people to figure out what to do when it's on. And maybe a well-written bugger board can give me spoons. Which the negative spoons may not exist in the world where this metaphor came from. I don't know, but in case of that, that could be something that motivates me. Or there's an interesting thread, I like to read them and get excited about something. There's a flame war that makes me lose spoons. Or I release a new software and somebody doesn't tell me whether they use it or not when they tell me that it uses the wrong UI tool kit. That's minus 10 spoons. Interestingly, if I have five routine tasks in the same context, it may be five spoons or less. Maybe there's an economic scale. If I have five routine tasks in five different parts, that may cost me 813 spoons. Because I have two spoons of context which are in between each task. I want to say this because the work we do with Damian costs energy. The work Damian costs and what is one person capable of doing are the things that as a project we expect a person to do. The things that one person can actually do. Is there any release manager in the room? We are Damian and there's a lot of excellent people in Damian. We have a history of people who manage to do anyway stuff that we wouldn't expect a person to really be able to do. Like, beautifully to all sorts of post-emailiness. Or managing, in saying, complexity of the release or fixing whatever you can see alone or something. And I'm thankful to people who manage to do that. But I would like to show compassion to them but not glorify them. Not take them as a model of what everybody should do. I would like Damian to be based not on heroes but on reasonable expectations. Both expectations of others and on oneself. If you are out of spoons, you are out of spoons. You don't need to keep going. If you need spoons for something else that isn't Damian, use them for something else. If you are out of spoons for something important and nobody else can do it, it is not your problem. It is a problem in the community. From the outside point of view, if someone is out of spoons, they are out of spoons. They don't get more spoons if you insist. If you insist, you probably take even more spoons away from them. If somebody needs their spoons for something else, they are entitled to them. If someone gets out of spoons for something important and nobody else can do it, it is not their fault. It is a shared responsibility. It was a problem that we put someone in a position where if they don't do things, Sauron takes over Middle Earth. Damian is a shared responsibility. Don't expect few people to take care of everything. When you are a person that takes care of a lot of things, leave space for more people to take responsibility for things. Turnover empowers, because I know I can do something without getting stuck into it, because there is turnover. I can play with this for as long as I have fun and when I stop having fun, move on to something else. Humans are a renewable resource, but only if you think of them that way. Also, when spoons are limited, what takes more energy, tends not to get done. So if we all overwork and run on very tight energy budgets. Well, if I overwork and I run a very tight energy budget, then routine tasks I can manage. Non-routine tasks get stuck in my mailbox waiting for a day with more free time or energy or spoons, which would probably never happen, because even looking at that inbox will require a decreasing amount of spoons, because I know I have a vague idea of the nightmare that isn't there. So, if I run on a tight energy budget, am I able to listen when tricky cases happen? Am I able to respond? Am I able to listen and respond when socially tricky cases happen? That may be even more demanding, because it's not just a strange bug that maybe I can't reproduce and I don't know how to fix it, but there's some tricky social situation that I don't know how to deal with. And on a tight energy budget, am I able to listen or respond when harassment happens? Am I able to tell people raising valid issues from travel makers? Those are all difficult things. In the new member process, on a tight energy budget, it's easier to accept a new maintainer than to reject them. So, when overwork there's no filtering, or there is less filtering, it becomes hard or impossible to make a call on a controversial candidate. Suppose I'm tired. Why I receive a bug report? Why would you report a bug? I don't want to deal with your bug. Maybe you're wrong when your bug is invalid? It would be good if you were wrong when your bug was invalid. I read the first two lines and decided maybe your bug is invalid. On the right side of things. It's not focus on cooperation. It's more like focus on personal goals. My personal goal is to not spend any more energy for today. Therefore, avoid this competition, depending on if I have energy for reaching my goals. Also, there could be a task that requires so much energy today, and it grows and it requires more and more in the future. So, you are to be strong on a beautiful swimming pool that gets warmer and warmer and turns out it's a pot and you're stuck into it and nice and cooked. A task that we are used to be workable, still humanly achievable, like released, done, DPL. The more these tasks become inhumanly achievable, the more we require heroes to take care of them and not just any person. And although we have several heroes in that game, heroes are rare, they're hard to replace, they burn out, they can become martyrs, they can become villains, and in general they tend to be accidents waiting to happen. Because you have no choice than having a hero. Encourage everyone to be aware of how much energy you're spending on things, how much energy you're requiring from other people, and if you feel like some person is doing any human job, consider checking out the situation and if they need help, and if there could be a different way to organize that part of the game so that it goes from a superhuman task to a merely human task that humans can do. Thing of energy balance is the dictatorship of who has most tools. Someone who has a lot of energy can take more and more tasks out of people who have less energy. Sounds nice. But after a while, it slowly drives everyone else away. Because like, oh, oh, you don't have time to do that, I'll do that. Oh, I don't want to wait for you, whatever, I'll do it, and so on and so on. And you have a team, slowly you have one person. And the focus moved from cooperation towards goals. Then that person ends up being a hero, and you have another person who's too big to fail and another accident waiting to happen. And that's another, like, new way, sometimes over-enthusiastic people that come with a lot of energy. And if the situation is not managed decently, it does risk destroying a team. Similar thing may happen in relationships. I want to go out with you, I want to go out with you, I want to go out with you. I'm tired, I can't, not today, but I do want to go out with you. And then after a while, listen, let's call it a day. Bye, I'm done. The beginning of perfectionism. Another thing that in Damien we do great. We do it good enough. So you're in a relationship that is just perfect. Just look up to you, you give people relationship advice. You're safe in knowing that you're doing it right, and you have an argument with your partner in public. You don't just have to deal with the argument, but also with your reputation and your self-perception shattering. So one thing I hate about Damien is a consistent track record of technical excellence. I don't want to be required to always be right. And one of my favorite moments in the history of Damien is the SSHE generation problem. Because it's an example of how Damien doesn't need to be technically perfect, it needs to be socially healthy, and technical problems can be fixed. So there was this big issue, it was a mistake, Damien Goodfaith, who was maintaining SSHE at the moment, is still maintaining SSHE now, and is still very highly valuable by everyone, and very highly valued by everyone. And the focus on that was not on laying it's a mistake that anyone could have made, the focus of the project was how to correct the mistake, how to deal with key migration, how to change the workflow of Damien so that that kind of mistake would be harder to do in the future. I would like to remove perfectionism Damien, make mistakes and focus more on having a focus on cooperation so that even though we don't achieve our goals, we can work around that, we can achieve them next time, we are a community that is still able to achieve indefinite amounts of goals. And also if we discover we've been wrong all the time in something important, it's not the end of Damien, it's the beginning of an improved Damien. It's cool, it's great if I find out that all I've done so far is wrong, it means I stopped doing something wrong, motivation, perfectionism, energy and so on. Sometimes we get people that are too good to be true. And there comes a point in most people dating experience when one learns that when some things they feel too good to be true, they might indeed be too good to be true. For example, there are people who cannot say no. Maybe they have fear of criticism, fear of making mistakes, whatever you ask of them they say yes. I'll do it, I'll do my best, yes, I like that. Would you like to go out for a concert? Yeah, sure. You think everything is great, you live together with them for years and you discover they've been suffering all the time and you never had a clue. You've been abused them for years in good faith and you didn't know. Or there are people who cannot say no. People who have a problem with a sense of worth, like by default they wouldn't feel like they have a sense of worth and they depend on a constant supply of achievement and admiration to feel a sense of worth. Therefore they have a lot of spoons to invest into getting this constant supply of achievement and admiration and it would be really nice, convenient, I mean, makes them happy, makes the project happy, except one day something they do is challenged, one points out the mistake they made or one points out the problem with their behavior and all hell breaks loose because they see not just what they've done challenged but their whole sense of worth, their whole being gets caught into the challenge and the reaction is a spectacular outburst of destructive rage. It's not a problem to have people like us in the area, we probably have many, but it's good to be aware, it's good to, and also it's good to make an effort to keep interactive constructively with the rest of the community and to be aware of these patterns to compensate for one's own tendencies. I might know that I have a problem in saying no and it's not constructive to ignore it when dealing with them because they tend to over commit and people think that I'm doing a lot of things and then I can't cope or what I need is this supply of achievement and admiration I will drift towards the competition side of the chart and tend to destroy the cooperation, the team I'm in and so on. More awareness, exercise, two things from relationships are flags. Have you heard of red flags? A red flag is when something smells like something happened that is not a big deal but it could be the tip of a iceberg of trouble. So, without replying, without saying anything, you're like, hey, why did you close the back? The windows have stopped bothering me, that flag. Maybe they're having a bad day, maybe that's not a person that should be answering back. I don't know. Same for future reference, if it keeps happening, if I keep collecting red flags, then maybe we have a problem. That's a new red flag and of a green flag is the opposite. It's a tip of potentially a iceberg of nice, say, I have an argument with someone and at the end of the argument, we are more friends than before and we agreed on a solution that works for both and it was great, green flag. That seems like a person that it's nice to interact with. I have examples of green flags in Damien. The flags in Damien, did you raise your hand? You can shout it out at Peter, so somebody was having a bad day and you got a bad reply. When you trigger someone else's range for reason that you don't understand, red flag, yeah. Green flag, when you get a quick coherent response to something you're asked about. When you get a quick response saying, I can't deal with this now. Yes, quick response saying, I can deal with this now, a green flag. In a relationship, somebody says no. Green flag, you know they can say no. Somebody says no to help me and die. Maybe red flag. Green flag, if it's a no, but I'll call someone. Article, a better way to say sorry. I've actually seen it in several different ways. I don't know if this is the original article or something, but it's the one I have. Which makes the point that apologizing is not about making the person who apologizes feel better because they wash the thing from their conscience, but about fixing the problem or making an effort to understand, fix the problem, make sure it doesn't happen in the future. So that's normal in software, right? You receive a bug report and you don't say, oh sorry, I closed the bug. You make an effort to reproduce it, understand it, make the fix, upload a new version, and then close the bug, right? Socially, it could be exactly the same. So there's this guide to apologizing properly, which is number one, I'm sorry, four, and then repeat what happened that caused the problem. So trying to reproduce the bug. And this was wrong because, and I understand that what happened caused these things. So reproduce the bug and find out where in the software is the code that is behaving. Future I will try to change your behavior and that thing doesn't happen or patch the software. Get it right. Oh sorry, and number four, will you forgive me? Make sure that your efforts are not just to make yourself happy, but also to address the problem in the other person. Make sure you are also making the other person okay after the problem that you caused. Will you forgive me? Does it fix the bug for you? We get it right technically. This is the parallel socially. We can adopt it socially. And then any issue that happens is potential. Instead of being a cause for embarrassment becomes a cause for growth. If you fail or drop the ball, as Andy was saying, green flag, I don't have time for this now. Was it more or less that? Think that anything that comes with any kind of Galadriel thing, if you don't do it, Sauron will take over Middle Earth, should not fall on anybody's shoulders, should be shared no matter what, either shared or dropped. I would prefer in Libya if this kind of if you don't do it, nobody will. Tasks would more be more likely to be met with okay, then I won't do it and nobody will. That side will be down until somebody can take care of it. Sorry, I can't do it. Rather than, okay, it sucks to be me, I'll take a week holiday and try to fix it. Because the second is not sustainable. It looks sustainable, but it's a false sense of security. We have stuff running on pay and abuse. And I don't want to run that down on abuse, that's kind of the point of this talk. And the responsibility for a healthy relationship is shared. Maybe it's my first relationship and I'm together with somebody who's been dating people for ages and I'm like, oh, I don't know anything about this dating stuff. I'll expect that the more experienced person will take care of everything. That does not work. A healthy relationship is a responsibility of both. Maybe I have stuff to learn from the other person but I still need to take responsibility for what I do. And the responsibility for a healthy dating community is a shared responsibility. It's not only the responsibility of anti-harassment and dam and the listmaster and the DDL. Anyone is entitled and encouraged to participate and try to make the social side of the being more on the right side of the graph towards cooperation. And also we have a project with active people counted by the thousand official members or non-members. And it's unlikely that harassment isn't happening. Anti-harassment is very little because we don't have an awareness for what is harassment or people may think that it's not worth the hassle of reporting and kicking a fuss about it. But also I do expect anti-harassment to deal with everything that happens in that being. That would be an inhuman task. And however, if you remember anything it's also your responsibility for making it a healthy team and if you see someone who is uncomfortable you can send a private message saying are you okay or do you need help? How can I help you? Or if you feel uncomfortable you can ask somebody else in the team that you talked to before is it just me or there's something strange about what just happened and find support and give support otherwise redirect to somewhere who may have a response and anti-harassment may be the ultimate full battery direction on a community that the more it's healthy the more it can heal what happens locally and that might be ideal. And then finally do not invalidate. If something tries something in the end try to acknowledge that accept that somebody is doing something and that it's okay that they do something then you can give feedback on what they're doing but try to make not block, not stand in the way of what people are doing unless what they're doing is actually hurting you then a collaboration side may help better. It's okay that if you don't like the general thing that they're doing you don't need to validate everyone but at least don't stand in the way. I personally don't care if people tell me I'm good when I do something I perceive it a bit like good boy, good dog. I rather prefer if people say oh that's useful or how does it work? like show an interest or what do you need to deploy this acknowledge that I've done something I don't care if it's particularly like but give me the freedom to keep doing it rather than feeding my ego, feed my freedom and feed my possibility to create that's it. Don't give me reward, give me space and dignity it's a thought that came up in conversation recently with a person and that I thought was very interesting and also any things that's energy not to stand in some of this way maybe more but I like a project of people who are free to move rather than a project where every time somebody moves there's somebody in the way. I found this really valuable and I'm not trying to say good for doing this but what I am trying to say is that I personally would find this an interesting avenue to continue exploring and refining and better understanding and I'm going to hopefully try to corner you at some point over the week to pursue some of that but this is neat I love that our community does this and I hope that the thoughts from this work continue to move forward because I think that they might be better. In the context, let me try to organize my thoughts first as somebody that is running out of spoons lately I believe in constant blame and self-pressure and I try to use my little spoons in the things that may finish with Middle Earth and there are some tasks in some of the groups I take you for example the security group to collaborate where they have time that they look like urgent for example we have something called the front desk we have one person from the security group every week taking care of the incoming emails trying to answer them quickly which I understand there is a task that needs to be done but nobody wants to done how to deal with this kind of task they look like the kind of modern thing like the Middle Earth distribution kind of thing understand they are not that urgent but they are boring we don't organize ourselves to do them nobody will do them, right? Right, so Sauron takes over Middle Earth if you are not happy doing it if the project needs it we'll find a way I think as long as somebody keeps doing it even if they don't want to then nobody will find a way of doing it that's probably the reason why we start having this file where every week we have these names and somebody will have this rotation of names and somebody takes care of that week for that task it's a way to and that being a way to pressure each other for doing that, I get that I just don't see I like the idea of a rotation because at least one is not alone and there is an after bound on the amount of requests but everyone does it against their will, it's a red flag but if I don't want to do it one week somebody else will have to do it so the whole thing is a big red flag in my opinion and it needs to be known that this is not sustainable it's okay if one week nobody does it in my opinion and something will fall to the ground there will be delays it will suck it sucks more if we are abusing people into doing it and when something breaks there is a chance to start a discussion on how to make it work ideally this discussion should start earlier so I would like with this talk to raise awareness to the fact that nothing is broken but we are abusing people is enough of a motivation to start a serious discussion we don't need to wait until everything breaks to realize we had a problem because we can see it earlier and I don't think I can start thinking of solutions but I think, I mean I would like what you said to be enough to start a serious discussion to say that part is broken it's working out of luck it can stop working at any time it's not sustainable it needs to change those of clever people in the end if the discussion starts maybe there could be somebody coming up with an idea a question from me I'll see for you being asked what if I can accommodate or feel I'm accommodating somebody but that person is saying it's just a competition so I think I've got compromise they think that I'm just feeding them a suspicion okay then I think there's two people I've never seen the situation in a different way I would folk and at that point there is no cooperation even though it feels like that on one side but the other side is not feeling it like that so it makes sense that the first step is to try and understand how the other person is feeling it take steps apologies is not the right thing in this case they yes who is going on the internet active listening it's nice try to understand how the other person is why the other person is not perceiving it as cooperation try to explain to the other person like the word word in my own words what I understood from the other person make sure that I understood what happens and the other person can do the same to reach a point in which we both agree what is the situation at that point it may be clear why it is that we are having two different views of things and whether we are really cooperating or competing or something in between so disagreeing a little bit about some of the situations where the weekly rotations and stuff I for myself at least adopted a framework that focuses on trying to remove judgment and should for my life so I try not to do things because I should but instead try and figure out why I am going to do those things and get to the point where I want to do them but there are a lot of things that I don't directly want to do that I used to say I should do but basically I have gotten to a point where I have said that I do them because having considered the options that is the best way for me to move towards the world I want and I mean for example I didn't really particularly enjoy changing diapers I don't really enjoy taking out the trash but on the other hand as part of doing things that I do enjoy like having healthy kids or living in a house isn't repulsive I have found that those things need doing and by untaking the time to understand why they need doing and how that creates the world I find the motivation to do tasks that in a community in and of themselves I would hate it if all I got to do was take out the trash but I am I'm not doing it because I should I'm doing it because having considered things I've gotten to a place where I understand what I choose to do to create the community I want to live in What you say is important not everything I may want to do needs to be pleasant and but I hope you don't feel abused in you having a need to change diapers or pick up the trash I think the turning point is when that doesn't feel like an everyday chore it feels like something something I need to sign up for something that is positively making my world worse and there's I think a line somewhere between these two parts where and that line can only be drawn I believe by the person who's living the situation and from the outside I can only trust them because I'm not in their shoes I I can't judge better than them what's their energy expense sort of things oh sorry you were first I'm blinded by these lights so thank you very much for highlighting when people need to check their own motivations from time to time my own experience for many many years of being involved is motivations come and go it's all too easy however to start something because you're interested and get stuck with it your own time in numbers of things you have to be able to do the tasks that you think you need to do will come and go it's important always to consider what you're committed to and consider dropping things move on, go and find something else you may come back again but don't feel you have to keep on doing something just because you've always been doing it it's really really important, thank you for watching thank you for all of this I would like to add what I think might be missing it seems like most of the suggestions are about the individual and the individual's choice and also individual's choices some individuals who may feel that they've been abused or pushed too far but I think it would be good to insert into these conversations the topic of not just bad shoulds on reasonable rules but common understandings about how work should be distributed or might best be distributed so that some of those tasks that are so unpleasant that people seem to do to their own detriment might actually be appreciated but it's more crucial than more believed because there was an unreasonably cheap supply of labor that has been hurt I wanted to thank you again I wanted to bounce back on what was said earlier regarding I guess it's unreasonable expectations regarding, for example, the security work and front desk I think there's a broader cultural problem we need to address so regarding expectations for example, uptime this is meant for a long time where we would be on call when machines would fall down and I believe there are certain tasks that cannot be accomplished without abuse, basically if you expect people to wake up in the middle of the night to attend machines I doubt that people really want to do that work at all to fix that problem we may need to drop certain things altogether and we need to collectively make that decision and that's something that we can just work around and we need to collectively make those choices and that's something that's actually very hard to do in some extent because it's a cultural social problem we need to solve and the question I unrelated question I had is I feel that people that should hear what you are saying may not be here right now and this feeling sometimes that in our community there is this group of people that have that knowledge that respect each other and there's a gap between that group and the people that or at least I feel they need sometimes to intervene with people that I do not know how to approach them at all because there's this gap even if I talk to them they will not actually listen to me and I don't know where to begin with like how to if somebody is actively listening to you there's no way to think they are actively listening to you basically and I don't know where to go I know it may be pausing us us and them kind of situation but I don't know where to go from here sometimes and the video will be recorded and there will be a link to it and the notes will be posted in my blog but at least if there's a chord that is aware it may spread if not in words that in practices over time and that for me would be a massive achievement I just took really quickly tied together the parts of the last two comments it would be awesome to know and have better awareness of some of these tasks that are happening in groups that nobody wants to do I mean I know the security team does a lot of work but I didn't realize that you all were doing a rotation to we're having problems not that I have free time to step in but these are the sorts of things that would be nice to know I mean I know that in the BTS there's been one person who's been dealing with the spam for forever and that's a totally thankless job and it's only recently that it's starting to become audience that it's just too much for a single person to deal with and there's lots of jobs like this that they're sort of helpful for the community but we don't communicate that they're going on and it might I don't know how to solve this problem but maybe just continuing to talk about these jobs that we need done maybe the solution is to hire people more aware that these tasks are a problem If at the end of this talk there's unawareness in the beginning somebody tells me please somebody tell me we're running with time because I think we Last question So maybe comments to the last few comments I remember reading somewhere it was somebody from Google or from Amazon they were talking about services and they were keeping services up more than promised so people started relying more on those services so they started actively restarting machines to basically to to let people know that those are not production services those are just testing services or something like this so this discussion and maybe because I think people are now used to okay there is always somebody from the security that is or from mail team that is taking care of spam so maybe if somebody if we start this discussion and if we know that those people are overloaded and we know it before everybody burns out and say I don't care I'm going to start selling selling ice cream on some beach instead of dealing with security issues it's better choice and to have to have weaker link before we have we have total breakdown you remind me that I heard that Google is having a a thing that elects a random employee and declares them unavailable for the day no matter what to make sure that the social the social organization can ask fallbacks in place and Netflix has chaos monkey which is a process that kills production service with random to make sure that the infrastructure is able to cope I don't know I like those ideas that no like institutional I think that everybody is replaceable on an on an institutional point of view it's good to lower the salaries but on a volunteer project it's actually good to empower turnover and being able to take time off when needed I'm just a very quick point I heard recently a phone in show where someone was talking about keeping relationships working and they said that in their household they have a list of tasks to do and a list of tasks for him to do and in between they have a list of tasks that nobody is going to do and you can move things back and forth between the three lists and if you don't check the things being on the I'm no longer going to clean the toilet then it does not be a clean and we can see that it's not going to be a clean maybe we should have a list of we're not doing anything more and then if someone else goes actually I don't mind doing that then it gets picked up we've got the work needed for the infrastructure stuff I've seen people saying we were tired of fighting all the cookies, the carpets we bought an automatic robotic vacuum cleaner or a dishwasher or something people saying we're fine but arguing about the cleaning of the house we hired a cleaner