 Good afternoon to all of you. I'm Amélie de Montchalam, the French ambassador to the OECD and the International Energy Agency. And it's a pleasure to be with you all today. I'm here for this panel on energy efficiency in the net zero future, with a number of very distinguished and knowledgeable colleagues and experts and also practitioners. We have here Her Excellency Amani Abouzade, who is the Commissioner for Infrastructure and Energy of the African Union. So many thanks for being with us today. I'm here also with the minister, Aman Ryan, who is the minister in Ireland for environment, climate, communications and transport, which also means energy, Aman. We are here also with His Excellency Rob Jetten, who is Minister for Climate and Energy Policy in the Netherlands. And with Kim Fossing, who is the CEO of Dan Foss, a company you might all know about. So to start this discussion, I would like first to ask the different panelists two questions to make it lively and hopefully concrete down to earth, so as we don't forget that at the end we need to be in the action mode. The first question is in this link between energy efficiency and climate, net zero trajectory. One example of one policy, one innovation, one product, one speech, one thing that in your setting, in your environment, really proved successful, something you want to share that can give ideas and can be replicated in other settings. And the second question for each of you is a failure, something that didn't work, something we can learn about, maybe a frustration, something you have been spending time, energy, brain, teams, you launch it, and then the outcome is not the one you expected. And I think with these two questions, we will have enough material to then have more conversations. So maybe I start with you from the African Union perspective in your different capacities. One thing you want to share and one thing you want to learn about. Thank you. Thank you very much, Ambassador, for giving me the floor and allowing me at the outset to thank France and to thank the IEA and to thank Schneider for this excellent, excellent summit that we are having here in Vahsai. From the African perspective, let me just say that our purpose, our mission, our role is actually not energy efficiency, it's energy access. Knowing that the majority of our continent has no access to electricity and that 90% of our people are still using charcoal or firewood or other untreated biofuel for cooking. But I think you would ask, yeah, but then why am I here? If it's the case, because we want to make the case of energy efficiency for access. And that's the whole purpose. And how do you do that? By proving that making best use of what we already have can avail some energy for access and also can avail funds for also promote or continue with our access programs. And here I'm happy to say and something that works and that work to do that, you need information and you need knowledge and you need training. And I'm taking the lead from the last speaker, I think in the previous session, the Lithuanian ministry. For that, we are having the database on energy and energy consumption across the continent. And we have proven that, for instance, in southern region of Africa that just lowering or being more efficient in the energy use by 5%, 9% can liberate enough energy to electrify 50 million homes in Africa and it's almost the equivalent of lifting off our roads five million fossil fuel cars or enough money that could build 11 big power plants. But that's a very compelling information when it comes to energy efficiency. So things that have not worked and here again, I'm taking the example of something we said over lunch and was repeated just a few minutes ago by my brother from Kenya, from Ghana. We have a program for lighting and appliances efficiency and fixing the clothes and making sure that whatever comes to our markets is saving energy efficient. Unfortunately, the continent still suffers from the fact that it's used as dumping place of inefficient equipment. And these inefficient equipment still find their way to our markets and at a much cheaper price. I remember affordability is also an important element for our people. So the dilemma or how do we make sure that we have energy efficient, say appliances or cars or vehicles that are on the African continent that obey to the answer to the codes and the standards while at the same time being afforded. One way is of course, locating some of the industries back in Africa, others, you know, rethinking the way it's done. I mean, it's complex, but definitely until now and despite the efforts that we're having, this has not worked yet and we're looking for better ways to make sure or to ensure that what reaches our markets, both from the side of manufacturers as well as the side of the local authorities make sure that these equipment and these vehicles are energy efficient energy saving. So it means that there is efficiency to be built in the regulation, not just in innovation. In enforcing the regulations. In enforcing regulations, yes, but also from side of manufacturers. And I'm not, and here everyone is responsible according to the planet. And mind you, I've said exactly the same thing to car manufacturers, which are not African. Said, make sure that whatever you send to Africa obeys to the same rule you apply in your own country. Don't send us, you know, your- The old-fashioned- Not just old, you know. Unsafe and inefficient cars just to get profit because you escape, you know, your country's regulation. So I think it takes everybody to make it work. And that's why I'm saying it's a shared responsibility, not just in Africa, but those who work with Africa to make sure that what is out there in the market, wherever this market is, is energy saving and it's efficient. Thank you. I think many, many thanks. It was exactly the things I think we need to hear. Lessons to be learned, message for action. And as you said, energy efficiency in some settings is about accessibility with the gigawatts of production you have. How do we cover more people? How do we cover more GDP? How do we cover more growth, which is then compatible with net zero? Iman, in Ireland, one story that you want to replicate and one thing you want to share as something that we can all do differently to do it better. The two, one to replicate and one not to do, is both around markets and might seem contradictory in a way. In Ireland, we have introduced a mechanism for carbon taxation that I think is working. And carbon tax is only one element. It's not the magic tool. It's not the silver bullet. But what we have done is each year now by law, without having to go into the budget, our carbon tax goes up seven euros a tonne every year. It's 48 euros a tonne at the moment. Next year it'll be 55. The year after it'll be 62. And the revenue, it's agreed with the finance ministry. It will go 15% for small farmers to help them decarbonize, 30% to increase social welfare because carbon tax has a regressive effect, and 55% goes to energy efficiency buildings for those who are poorest. Last this year, I think we have a quarter of a billion that goes to retrofitting energy of the most vulnerable households. And the advantage isn't just that you get the revenue or that you put the price on carbon, but the energy efficiency industry knows that each year that budget will increase by 100 million euro. And that what was previously a stop-start industry or depending on how the budget was, did you have the money for finance or not, that is removed. So they can invest in hiring staff. They know that it's going to be an industry which grows. So I think that, and the putting aside 30% of it to social welfare increases means that you can show politically that it protects the most vulnerable, that's very important. So I think that the way we've done it, it's very politically difficult, it was not popular, but I think it is a good tool. As I said, that's a market mechanism, but I think the other thing on the other side then what would I learn or do differently? And this is very broad perspective, political perspective. For almost 30, 20, 30 years I've been involved, I think the environmental movement made the mistake like so many sections of our society to be over-reliant on markets and market mechanisms. And included in that was a kind of political approach which was, and the environmental movement, are you doing the right thing? Is that the right class of tap water that you're drinking? Or have you made, are you responsible for this climate change and for addressing it? And that was a fundamental disconnect where on the one side, the world is burning and biodiversity nature has been lost and then you're saying, I have to change my light bulbs. It doesn't work as a connection, but also it doesn't deliver the scale and the change that we need. And I think in the last 10 years, five years, 10 years the environmental movement has changed. I think people like Bill McKibben of 350.org and others realized, actually we need to stop focusing just on the end of the pipeline as it were and start focusing on the source of the problem. We keep the fossil fuels in the ground, we use regulations to change buildings, to change behavior, but not put it all down to personal consumption habits. And I think that was a mistake we all made in the environmental movement which we've learned from, unfortunately at some cost. I think in the politics of how people perceive this transition. Yeah, in French we have this phrase, every small gesture counts. And I agree with you, it leads to some skepticism of, okay, at my level, is it really worth it? And I think your point on predictability is in a way it's putting the net zero trajectory in your budget to have enough time to both be where we should be, which is in fact soon, but have this more medium-term planning that we know is very difficult to keep as a government. So I think two very good points too, many thanks even. So now turning to Netherlands, same questions, seen from your point of view and also maybe on the political side, what works to convince, what doesn't work, so your turn. Well, thank you very much. And thanks to the IEA and the French government for organizing this event. And Schneider. Yeah, thank you. I think last year we had very impressive numbers in energy saving and energy efficiency in the Netherlands, but that was just last year, because for decades we haven't done enough on energy efficiency. And I think two mistakes that we made over the past decades were a bit similar to the Irish examples, but let me start with the first one that always annoyed me. We had these huge campaigns in the Netherlands that said, if I would translate it to English, if you want to save the planet, start with your own behavior. That is something that we've been telling people for 20, 30 years. And that was a great excuse for governments and big companies to do absolutely nothing because you could just point at individuals' behavior. And at the same time, we were in our policies, mainly focused on the positive effects of efficiency for the climate. And we thought or believed that if you always talk about saving the climate and slowing down climate change, then everyone will feel motivated to do more and to do better. But the hard reality is that a lot of people are just struggling to get to the next day or the next week or the next month. And they do care about the planet, but they don't have the time, they don't have the mental space to focus on that climate action. And what we've learned over the last year, a year and a half in the Netherlands, is that talking about your energy bill and talking about the possibilities you have to lower your own costs was actually the most effective way to get both companies and consumers moving. So we've learned from those two failures. And last year, we started a huge campaign on energy saving and energy efficiency with a very positive attitude in all the campaigning. But we started with putting the right example from a government perspective. So a lot of energy efficiency measures in our own buildings, in our own policies, both on the federal level and on a local level, being more harsh in our policies to big companies so that they're really pushed to save energy and then go to the consumers and ask them, what do you need? How can we support you? Giving positive examples in these TV ads and everything. So people felt like I'm part of a movement and we're all moving into the right direction. So I think that is our big lesson of the past 12 to 16 months. And maybe if I can add one more because I just came back from the Caribbean Climate and Energy Conference, the first ever meeting with around 35 countries from the Caribbean region, the Netherlands, the kingdom of the Netherlands has six islands in this region. And I, well, what we came up to is that we want to create these living labs with some of the small island development states in the Caribbean region because there's a lot of technology available that can be combined in this integrated energy mixes with more renewables, more storage, but also smart grid management. And the small island states are just perfect to actually try out these new techniques because of the scale and the size of these islands. So the Netherlands will support some of the islands in the Caribbean region and see if we can really make a huge leap on energy efficiency so that we can then copy-paste these policies to other countries and that not everyone is reinventing the wheel by itself. Well, thank you. I think the point of consistency in my previous position, I also experienced that no message can be put through the public if then the state as an employer, the state as a builder, a maintenance, when the schools, when the hospitals are not doing retrofit, how then people can believe it's a priority. If it's so energy-saving, if it's so good for climate, if it's so good for your bill, why isn't the cities, why aren't the ministries also doing it? And I think this consistency point most is very good because in fact the bills of public authorities are large and it's so good for the political message. So now we're turning to another type of actor. You are CEO of a company, you innovate, you put on the markets things that hopefully all of them work. So a success and lesson learned. Yeah, thank you, thank you very much. And also for me, thank you very much to this gathering. Once a year, the IEA has really become a fantastic motor to help us to bring out this message on energy efficiency. So thank you for that. So what works, what doesn't? Let me start last year when we had the meeting in Sonderborg in Denmark. So one of our sayings was seeing is believing. And it's clear, if you look at the energy efficiency, it's been a bit in the shadow of the big picture, the green wall, a wind turbine, and it's very easy to understand. It's renewables, it's green, it's good, great story. You would like to move with that, right? And I think that's not been the case for energy efficiency. That's a lot to do with many technologies. You touch with your infrastructure and so on. And therefore, I think what works is when you really understand, and you see the role modeling of what really makes a big, big difference. And I don't know, but last year, Minister Ryan, I think, and now I don't know what you were thinking, but maybe you were thinking, why was I invited to visit a, I think you visit a supermarket or something last year. But the fact is, and when you see that a supermarket can be sustainable and produce all the heat it needs by itself, then you start to understand a new world. Like, for example, data centers, we all need them, right? And we build them very fast and nobody doubt why we have them, but there's so much access heat available. So the learning is, first of all, when you get out and see things, then you start thinking, let's do that, right? And I have many reflections when people do that, then they say, why don't we just do this much more? Yeah. Lots of invitations to all the ministers and all the actors to visit places where you put live your technologies to then. Yeah, I think we have all the examples. We have it in Danfors. There's many other companies who can show the same things, but it starts with you understand and then you start to believe. And then it's sharing it, right? I mean, going in with a positive story, role modeling, right? That then you can move. What does not work is the opposite. We can say we have 500 million radiators in the southern part of Europe, even without a thermostat. It's such a short payback time. And you know, trust me, if people understood that they could save maybe 30% of their heating bill just by investing very, very little money, putting a thermostat on the radiator, people would do it. But we have to look at ourself in the mirror, but maybe also out here in the room. It's just been extremely difficult and frustrating for us because we can't get through with that message. It's in the same time we have an energy crisis. And we think about why don't we turn off the lighting or why don't we, and it's all right, but I mean, 500 million radiators. And we can't get traction, the opposite example. Yeah, so we still have a long road to go. I want now to go back on the moment we are in. I know this morning, Fatih Birol and others presented you the numbers. And that last year, we multiply by two, or by three, the rate of efficiency gains and that we still have to do as much as double it in the long run if we want to reach net zero and have the whole system functioning. But last year also prices were extremely high to a point where many of the messages we just carried were messages that people were listening at with the sense that it was an economic case and not just a climate or not just a moral case. Now the prices are going down sharply, not yet in the supermarkets, not yet in the gas stations, not yet on the bills, but if we do some economics, we know that probably in 12, 18 months ahead, if things keep being what they are, which we are not so sure. And here we really hope the aggression of Russia will stop and we find a way to stop it. But with the prices going down, how do you in your different capacities foresee and plan for tools to keep the effort? Because this millions of radiators, if the bill lowers just because the price is lower, well, what's the incentive? On this, who wants to start? Yes. Doing the same order. Again, a different perspective. When you say the prices go down, I understand it's not just about the energy cost, but technology. I mean, it's getting cheaper, especially a renewable energy. What people seem to forget that maybe the cost of use in the energy exploitation of the renewable is getting lower, but having a power plant is still expensive and more importantly, people forget about transmission. And that's a critical part. So it's not exactly what you're saying does not exactly always apply to us. Actually does not necessarily apply to us at all because the prices, it's still very costly. However, there is a case and that is what I'm trying to aim at. There still is a case for both for energy efficiency, like I said earlier, because it optimizes the use of what we already have. And there is a case for renewables for us in the continent because of the opportunities that could be created, not just for Africa, but through Africa to the world using or exploited renewable energy. Just to let some of you know, we have six African countries already producing green hydrogen. We have four African countries already on their way to produce sustainable aviation fuel. So there is in addition, of course the huge potential in solar wind, geothermal, hydro and so there's an important case for Africa to use renewable energy for ourselves, for others and so on and so forth. However, we have to be cautious in generalizing things like the prices are going down because it depends who, where and what prices exactly are we talking about and we have to factor in the whole value chain all the way to the end consumer, especially going through the transmission issue, which is still for us a critical also missing link because even the current connections, we have a waste of about 30 or 40% that's being wasted replacing those, building new ones, smart grids, even many, many years. I mean, it's still, there's a lot of work to be done on that front. Yes, and I wish that in many developing countries the cost of financing decreases and we know it's not decreasing. Thank you so much and that's the forward. And this is, as you know, a big discussion that will happen in Paris in two weeks now. How do we make the financing work for developing countries? Because at the moment, yes, the whole price on the brand market is going down but the cost of financing for many developing countries are going up steeply and it's not helping to loop in. Absolutely, Ambassador and just last month in April, actually not last month, April UNDP came with a study that Africa because of unfair unjustified ratings and making that the cost of borrowing for Africa making us lose about 75 billion a year, let alone all you know, crippling our development by not being able to access finance at fair terms. What we ask you to have fair. If you want to follow on this discussion, it's Palais-Bronniard, 22nd and 23rd of June because I'm here for the time. And I will make sure that you are on the list of invitees. Iman, I think you have a point on in Europe or in developed countries, where indeed the cost of financing is increasing but to a proportion which is nothing comparable to developing countries. But if the prices of energy are going down, how do we keep the effort? Because we are in a new industrial revolution that is evolving very quickly before our eyes. What Fatih said this morning, is it 40% increase in solar last year? 90% of new power generation in the world renewables. Not happening in Africa fast enough, but in China, India, Europe, America and elsewhere. This revolution is characterized and the efficiency comes in because the nature of the revolution, when you have renewable system, there will be some nuclear, but who thinks here that renewables will go below, let's say 75% of new generation in the next five or 10 years? Does anyone, I mean it seems to me, it's going to be solar, it's going to be wind as the cornerstone of the energy this new industrial revolution. And in this revolution, what you find when you get to high levels of renewables that the balancing capability that you get with demand management and energy efficiency is the other side of the revolution. This new energy system is a dance between variable supply and variable demand. We very soon, already in some countries, already have excess renewable power, so we have to design smart measuring, pricing flexible systems to balance that capability. And that revolution is not going to go away because solar is going to continue to drop in price and it's everywhere, every now and again with wind, one or the other of these forms of renewable energy everyone has access to. And that I think is the key. It's the efficiency that comes with flexibility to use this variable supply is going to be what will continue to drive efficiency. The last point though, and this is a big geopolitical point, this characteristic of this energy revolution is different. A fossil or other traditional energy system is hierarchical, centralized, and is not ubiquitous. It's more energy dense, but it doesn't have the capability that the renewables have of being accessed to everyone. It's true, Africa with new HVDC cable connectivity, whatever evil about hydrogen, could be a significant partner with Europe in sharing power. But also critically, if we're to achieve our climate objectives, it's vital that Africa has the same access to the solar technology, which can be done in different ways. It doesn't always have to have the same grid technology. But it is, I think there are the two characteristics, we will start to see that there's an energy revolution taking place which is accelerating, and the politics, the geopolitics of this, it gets away from an America versus China versus Europe. It is by agreeing on systems that everyone has access, we can actually guarantee all our security. My security is guaranteed and my neighbor's security is also there. And we're not that far away from that. In Paris in two weeks' time, in Abu Dhabi in November, we need to turn this moment of industrial revolution change to being the peace project of our time, which I think it can and will be, that will drive the change. And this was the discussion in Versailles in March when just a few weeks after the beginning of the Russian aggression in Ukraine, all the European leaders said that our sovereignty, our security was a question of also stopping the dependencies and energy efficiency, better use of the resources we have is a way to lower dependency and therefore being a peace, as you said, or at least in a shared prosperity on energy that then leads to geopolitical stability. Now, how do we do with the Dutch consumers? They care a lot about their money, as you said. So if the money, if the price goes down, how do we do it? I think three short remarks. First of all, all European governments have to make use of this momentum because prices are still a bit higher than we used to. Everyone knows what happened last year. So put in place this stricter regulations, stricter policies, new subsidy schemes, et cetera, et cetera. Do it now because if you want to do it next year, you probably won't have the political support anymore. So that is, I think, everyone is moving really fast. We are also publishing a new national program on energy efficiency. After summer, France is doing it in a few weeks' time, so use the momentum. Secondly, even with lowering prices for lower-income households in Europe, energy poverty is a huge disaster. In the Netherlands, almost 900,000 households are faced with energy poverty in a wealthy country as the Netherlands. So even with lower prices, we have to take responsibility to really focus our support to these households. So what we're doing now is not everyone look out for yourselves, but we call it a street-by-street approach, going into a neighborhood and lifting that whole neighborhood in a few months with insulation, with solar panels, et cetera, et cetera, and that demands close cooperation between the national government, local government, and social housing organizations. Thirdly, and that is about the international stage. And I think it could be a peace project, but there's a huge responsibility for European countries. The Netherlands aims to be the energy hub of northwestern Europe with our big harbors being the way in for green hydrogen from all around the world to not only the Dutch industries, but also Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, et cetera. And Dutch companies and also the Dutch government is traveling all around the world to sign memorandums of understanding and to start new projects for these green hydrogen productions in countries like Morocco, Namibia, South Africa, Oman, Chile, et cetera, et cetera. And we can make one big mistake, a mistake that we've made during the fossil area, is Europeans investing in developing countries and getting all the green hydrogen out of that country as fast as possible so we have the cheapest green hydrogen for our industries. And if at the same time the populations of those countries do not have access to affordable energy, that is, now we should be ashamed of ourselves if that is the situation in five to 10 years' time. So I'm really pushing all Dutch companies that are investing in green hydrogen in Africa, Middle East and Latin America. What are you doing on local return on investment? What are you doing to make sure that your solar plant in Namibia is also accessible for the local population so they can get that access? And I think it's up to politicians and up to governments to make sure that this is the new standard for energy projects worldwide. Well, I can tell you, as a French ambassador, this is the French position, too, on the second point you've made, that it's very, very important that we do not recreate dependencies, rent situation, extraction of assets that deprives the local population of the prosperity they're asking for. And this was a critical, critical part of this new pact, both on the financing and the energy. So Dan Foss, how will you do if energy is a bit cheaper than what the crazy prices has been? I think it doesn't really have an influence on the business case as such. It's really, really good business, and I think I have all the sympathy for green hydrogen and developing this, but if you think about the basics for a moment, there is such great business case also before we had an energy crisis. So I mean, if we think about our biggest sites that we are, where we take our own medicine, where we are decarbonizing them, where we are net zero today, 250,000 square meters, we have not done anything with payback times more than three years. So we are more profitable today because we did it, and that was at old energy prices. We have, and sorry to put it on the extreme, and of course this agenda is really moving now and we are super happy with it, but we still have many places in the world, a city, where on the one side of the street has a company producing a lot of hot water, could be chemical industry or many other areas. And the other side of the street, you have a district heating company producing a lot of hot water, right? And there's not been a lot of ideas how to connect and how to use it, right? And I tell you these payback times, it doesn't matter if the energy price is slightly higher, slightly lower because they are super attractive. So there's so many opportunities and therefore I get so confident when I hear, right? It's really about moving and maintaining this sense of urgency. For energy efficiency, it's the fastest and lowest cost to do in the best business case no matter if the energy prices are going slightly back. So it's maintaining the urgency, it's all out there. We have the technology. Yes, that's I think a very strong message, but still maybe going back to some of you who want to take back the floor. If we're here today and if we meet every year, it's also because we are not where we should be and to reach the multiply by two speed that Fatibelle was describing this morning, to reach the numbers of investment that all the speakers have been describing, there are blocking points. There are things we are not managing to overcome. So if you think in each of your positions, not the failures, not the lesson to be learned, but what are the thing in the last seven minutes we have, the blocking point, the moment where you feel, okay, we are putting energy, we are putting innovation, we are putting conviction, sense of arguments, argumentation. Where are the people, are the companies, are the ideas? Where are the blocking points? Because in the Netherlands, no, your rational ministers, the population are rational people, companies are rational. What is blocking? We were at a session earlier, which was very round table session downstairs at the industry and politicians, and Dan said something that surprised me. You described the SME sector, small business sector, where there's potential for 70% savings in efficiency very quickly. But what you said is in the survey of those, you think you surveyed 12,000, and most of them didn't have the knowledge as to what could be done. And that surprised me in a country like Denmark, which the economy has been centered around very strong energy efficiency industries for 30 years, 40 years. And I said to myself, if 12,000 businesses in Denmark don't have the knowledge, where they make all the controls and the windows and the radiator systems, well then that really is a telling. I think that we need a one-stop shop for small businesses to get the knowledge. And then the second thing I'd say again came out, we all had this common view, I think we don't have the people, our young people are not going into to be installers or engineers or plumbers. And actually, if you want to save the world, we need to get this message out. We need plumbers to save the world. Those two things, I think, are the two biggest obstacles, knowledge and people. And at the OECD, a survey was made on how the young people perceive their role regarding the transition. In fact, it's a big, big, I think, role for governments, for schools, for universities. Being a plumber helps a lot the climate, helps a lot the climate. And this is not the jobs that the young generation associates with climate. They want to participate, but they don't see the way they can be part of it concretely. And this is indeed a very good lesson. Yeah, I would also say we lack the forces to do all of this. So in the Netherlands, we're really trying to get people more involved in education, getting people from other sectors into the energy transition. But it's not easy. And I think the main challenge is to get more girls and women involved. I visit so many events in the Netherlands with the audience full of boys and guys. They are super enthusiastic about the energy transition, but I think you also need the diversity in the teams to get the job done. So we are now trying to find out how can we involve girls and women better in technical education, making sure that there are some right examples and that you actually recreate the image of people that are working in the energy transition. It's not, you don't get dirty in these jobs anymore. Most of the jobs are actually clean jobs with very good wages. So yeah, let's try to convince people to choose for jobs in the energy transition. So we lack people, workforce, skills, training, young people to think it can be their lives. As a CEO of a company, what the, because the stories you tell are very exemplary. So what is blocking your view? I think it's, I completely agree with what was said. So not to repeat that, but I think it's always underestimated. We do that every day in companies. You know, it's very easy to do a vision and no way you wanna go. Well, it's super hard to get there, right? You have to work it. Execution is a lot of hard work and staying the course. It's not giving up when you have a setback. It's just staying on it because you know it's the right thing to do. And this is in a nutshell where we are on the efficiency side. I think if we just now have this courage to stay on it, build the urgency and solve, that's also why it's important to come together here once in a while because of the things happen. We get smarter. Ireland, you move fast on district heating. You have good experiences. Okay, suddenly some others hear about this. So we need to keep turning the wheel. That's really what's the limit that we flip flop sometimes too much and underestimate that execution. That staying the course, it's working together and it's in headwind and nice times, right? So in a way you need politics now, but a bit less political life after. Yes, but now, tomorrow and the day after, and the same agenda. Don't flip flop. Don't flip flop. Don't flip flop. But it's like within... Seen from Africa. We have two minutes left. Two things. I mentioned the database and the indicators. Remember Africa is not a country, it's 55 countries. So for us the challenge is to have common indicators and that allow us to fix KPIs for the continent and to stick to those KPIs. Without those, then it will only be goodwill and rhetoric. So this is one. And the second, and I thank you, Minister, for bringing gender into the issue, into this discussion. We forgot in this discussion about, again, the clean cooking aspect, which is major in Africa that we have to make sure that the concerns regarding women and girls, energy poverty, time poverty, the hardship that they are facing, the premature death is centered to our discussion of energy efficiency and not only the training of women and men in energy, women in power and decision positions. We have to have women taking decisions at the main table. Not only to be a vulnerable group that we're trying to serve, but we have to have women sitting on the main table, making and taking decisions for everybody else. Thank you. With this I think we can conclude. I think we have the main message. Here, hopefully there are women in the room, there are women on the stage, there are women in your teams, and indeed we cannot for such a challenge, both for climate or for energy, transition or efficiency, think that 50% of the whole population is out of the debate, is out of action, and is out of the solution. So, indeed I think I hope it was interesting to listen to our conversation and fire, not fire side, but quite chat. I think we have to leave the room, so as Fatih Birol and the Ukrainian minister and others come for the concluding session. So thank you very much for having listened to us, and let's keep. So, good afternoon, dear colleagues. This is the last session of this, in my view, a very impressive day. We heard from several ministers, several CEOs, thought leaders about energy efficiency, and it is a role in reaching our energy and climate goals. Now, in this last session, I have two very distinguished colleagues, very fortunate to have you, Madam Deputy Minister from Sweden, and of course this morning we talked with Jean Pascal, he gave a very impressive opening speech as usual, Jean Pascal, about energy efficiency in buildings and beyond, based on his extensive experience with Schneider Electric. Now, this session we normally had also Minister Galushenko from Ukraine. He is still on his way to come here. I think he has a few other meetings before arriving here, but we still want to have a brief, more or less a chat between these two distinguished colleagues. Now, Sweden, as we all know, it's a fortunate country, if I may say so, Madam Minister, lots of carbon-free electricity, and with your government, you now embrace also nuclear power as part of your energy mix, maybe to say comeback of nuclear power in Sweden, but at the same time, you are presiding the European Union, this term. Can you tell us a bit, Madam Minister, what key challenges you see in the European levels, especially when we had to deal with this energy crisis after 24th of February? What key challenges in Europe from your point of view? Oh, there's a lot of them, and thank you, Dr. Fatih Baroul, for the introduction also. Happy to be here on stage, happy to be a part of this conference, but of course, hearing you mention the 24th of February, it's only been two days now, since the attack on the Kauhovka Dam, another completely outrageous attack from Russia hitting, and a lot of, once again, a lot of civilian being really hurt from this, and accountability really must be sought in this. But what I'm really eager is for the European Union to draw the lesson from being so highly dependent of one single country, as the European Union has been off of Russia, and then being so highly dependent still on fossil fuel, as we've been on gas and then Russian gas, is to be able to draw the lesson from that, but also apply it into other areas. So I think one of the major challenges for the European Union now is that everything is connected. We've said that the green transition is the way to move forward, but we are still highly dependent on third countries for all of the critical raw material, for making this green transition, for all of the critical raw materials needed in our phones, in our wind power, in our electric vehicles, for our grid system, it's all connected, and we need to be able to see the whole value chain, the full value chain of this, and I think that's one of the biggest challenges, is that when you have Brexit, for example, which was a big challenge for the European Union, when you have a global pandemic, Russia's unlawful invasion of Russia, and then an energy crisis, a lot of other long-term issues are set aside, and you only focus on the acute measures, and that's why you could see European energy ministers this fall giving a lot of focusing energy into discussion on price cap, instead of how do we build new power production, how do we build an energy system which gives a proper incentives for other actors to decide to develop the new technique and invest in new power production within the European Union, so you get a quite broad, out-zoomed answer to your question, and I'd love to get into the nitty-gritty as well, but I think that's one of the biggest challenges. Draw the lesson from the invasion of Ukraine, applying it to more areas, and also making sure that the acute errands on the agenda for the European Union does not push out all of the long-term issues. Thank you very much, Madam Minister. I will ask a question to Jean Pascal, but then I will come to you to see your reflection. I'm sure when you take the day one as the European presidency, what you thought you could achieve, and now, as of today, you are only a few weeks from giving your counting the minutes, I know, to give it to your Spanish colleagues. How do you see if you've been able to achieve what you had in mind? Just I will come to that in a moment. Now, Jean Pascal, you are, as I said this morning, when people talk about energy efficiency and the private sector, I wouldn't say you are one of the first names that come to my mind, but you are the first name that comes to my mind. Colleagues may not know, but Jean Pascal and myself met in many, many meetings, but special ones were in Davos, if I may say so, and they, I am the chair of the Davos energy board, so when the sessions, I always give the opening remarks, and then there is always a most of the heated debate, and one of the persons who comes with a common sense, with a strong voice, and I am so fortunate supporting more or less what I say is Jean Pascal, so I'm very thankful to him, and I also admire Jean Pascal, how you reposition the Schneider Electric in the last several years. So can you tell us, I mean, the Schneider Electric is in fact a giant, if I may say so, if you look at the numbers, the business volumes, in terms of people who are working there, where you work, many people think you are a French company, but most of your business is not in France. Can you give a couple of numbers, where it was, and where it is now? I can, before I do that, I really, the words of Eber really resonate to me. Actually, the first way to get out of this dependency on energy, on external energy, is first to work on our addiction. And very often, because we've been used to that, we've always solved the energy through the supply, but when you think about it during the history of humanity, energy transition happen through the demand. I mean, cars will not be electric because there is more electricity. Cars will be electric because somebody designed a very competitive and attractive car. And this industry will be the biggest energy migration we've ever known in the short term. So, what if today on Aichea, I heard Kim, Kim Fawcyn from Danfors in the previous panel, sharing a sort of, I would say a sort of frustration, saying before speaking about big plans, big innovation, big, whatever, let's deploy what we have, right? Let's say everybody to have a self-regulating thermostat, let's have heat pumps where they need to be, and so on. And what if today, Europe, without losing one degree of comfort, would consume 20 to 30% less energy? Is that the dream? No. It's perfectly accessible. Return on investment, probably less than three years. We just need to think differently. So, now I'll go back to, and it's a real important question, because otherwise our mind is always on the supply and we never bring the efficiency while at the end of the day, if everybody is net zero here, my home, my building, my factories, then Europe is autonomous. That gives a lot of freedom, right? We can't get to that point, but we can go much closer to that point. Now, Fatih, thank you for your kind words, more than kind words. We've been, as you say, in multiple dialogues, and I hope, and I'm sure that this dialogue will keep going. But we are the example, Schneider, for companies that we repositioned 20 years ago when I was headed over the keys of the company, because I was coming from a carrier in emerging countries, in fast-developing countries, and when you are in developing countries, you know that energy is precious. You have power, TGC. If you can run your company on your society on a shoestring, then you are much more competitive than anybody else. We align, or we position Schneider to be the champion of technologies for energy efficiency, and therefore sustainability, and leveraging new technologies, namely digitization, smart everything, and clean electrification. And we are the example, I know that it's common to trade-off performance or economic performance on sustainability by aligning our purpose with technologies for sustainability. Actually, we multiplied the size of Schneider by four, from 8 billion to 34 billion last year of revenue. And because this positioning was contrarian and actually speaking to the whole world, we also became very global. We grew by a factor of 10 in new economies because our value proposition of course speaks a lot in fast-brain economies. And we did that by moving from 1 billion in digital to 15 billion in digital, and today I would say we are probably one of the top three industrial software companies in the world. Electrification multiplied by four, and we are world leaders. And if you take Europe, because we tend in Europe to consider that sometimes we are behind some continents, actually in electricity the three top champions are European. So we have, because why? Because we have no resource. So we had to design systems that would be more efficient. So that's our story, and I think it shows and we bring every year solutions, active solutions, digital solutions that save 100 million tons to our customers. We can do it, we can deploy, it's all a question of scale on how fast we go together and I think it's a key topic we all have to share. And how many years you hold the key? 20 years, and it probably looks out. Okay, 20 years, two decades. Perfect, and you end over the keys only a few weeks ago. I end over the keys to Peter, Peter's first rank and Peter knows very well our industry. Now, I turn again to Madame Minister. Madame Minister, the time that you have the presidents of Europe was tough. No, the energy crisis, the winter. High energy prices, not available Russian energy, internal discussions, and you wanted to make some reforms when you took over on 1st of January. How do you assess now where you are today as of June compared to when you started 1st of January? It's a good question. Ask me again in four weeks, and you get an even more precise answer. But starting off like this, first of all I've had the great honor but also the great challenge of leading two of the European Council circuits. So both, I meet my energy ministers in one Council circuit. I see a few of them here today. I've listened to a few of them here on stage, and the other one is the Council on Competitiveness. And I think that has been an advantage to be able to work with both the two of the Council circuits combined. To be honest, on the 1st of January I was quite concerned that we would have yet another six months of only the acute errands on the agenda. Only emergency issues. I thought, I hoped that there would be an opening for the long-term issues, but I was quite skeptical. But I would say that there is really, speaking of demand, a huge demand also among policy makers to sort of lift your eye towards the horizon a little bit. And I think what we managed to do during the spring is really show there is a way to reach high set climate target goals and combining that with economic growth, a strong welfare and paving way for new job opportunities for your citizens. Because there is part of the policy making that resonates well with its doomsday. If we don't save the climate and the planet here and now, we're all gone. And also pushing the responsibility and guilt buttons. And that's part of it. But for some to be able to make that shift and also have the legitimacy and the support from your citizens, you also need to show a way to make policy not out of fear for what will happen, but out of the hope that what will come from the change. And what I mean by that in plain sight, no. Of course, there will be more job opportunities for moms and dads all around Europe if we make this transition and if we do it in the right way. But we cannot always paint the world in doomsday colors. And I think we've managed to make part of that shift because policy makers really decided that we need to push the long-term agenda and connecting energy, climate, and competitiveness combine the three of them. But I also think that we've managed to shift into discussion on can you put a prize on climate? Well, you can. You can put a prize on CO2 emissions, obviously. That's what we're doing all the time. But you can also put a prize on freedom. And that has entered into the policymaking in a completely different way. Are you prepared to pray for your autonomy? Are you prepared to pay for knowing that this is really a paving way for a freer and better world and not more dependence from countries that we should not support? Excellent. If I may just a small question. Of course, lots of success stories in these last five months. But there are still some dossiers that are not yet finished and you will give it to the Spanish presidency. Do you ever think these are very important dossiers? I wish I could finish them. I wish I would have six more months. Do you want to have six more months or not? Ask my colleagues if they last another six more months. They work quite hard. But yes, pardon me. I'm a doer. I used to be a city commissioner and anyone that has been in local politics and had the responsibilities of your citizens that you meet at the grocery store when you do your shopping with your kids and had been held accountable the way you're accountable as a mayor or as a city commissioner, you're used to being very close to the people that are affected by your decisions. To be frank, it's much easier to get away with the big grand speeches on the big stages when you're a national politician. I've been the party leader for my party in Sweden for eight years now. It's easier compared to being a city commissioner. But I like to get things done. So we've worked very, very hard during these five months. I've had great support from my colleagues in both council circuits. Everyone working hard, moving things as far as possible because we are late in the legislative period within the European Union. And things tend to go a little bit crazy in politics when it's time for elections. We need to get the fit for 55, the big climate package done. We're close to it. I'm hoping I still have hopes that we will be able to finalize that in a few days or in the next coming weeks. We'll see about that, but we're pushing hard for that. I would also say I think we've managed to unlock some of the very hard-locked positions. Is it wind power or is it nuclear power? Maybe it can be both. As long as it's fossil free. And maybe it's okay. You choose one thing. You choose another thing. But maybe we need each other because no matter how much will power politics shows, we can't always outrule the power of physics because the energy systems, it just needs some qualities that politics not always can just decide or we're just going to overrule physics. We need base load. We need to show some care, love and understanding for the grid system. And I think finally we've gotten some time to discuss also those issues. Showing respect that member states will choose different paths. But the energy system needs what the energy system needs. And it's much easier if we work together and not against each other, especially in these times. Exactly. So no more six months for you. But I am sure you will support the Spanish president. I haven't gotten the question yet. If I get the question, then maybe I'll consider it. No, but we're working close with the Spanish making a smooth transition as possible. I am sure. Jean Pascal, so I think there are many people who would like to benefit from your experiences. Your incredibly rich experience as a leader of the energy industry. One question I want to ask you, you just mentioned I think a very important word. I know the emerging world and I know that energy is precious. This is a starting point. So there are many business leaders community here and especially those in the advanced economies based there have reluctance to go to emerging world. Should I go there? Is it a good business to go there? Yes, the rewards may be high, but the risks are also very high. It is, of course, difficult to say a very general prescription. Do you have any thoughts that you can share that many Western so-called companies increase in the appetite to look at the emerging world, especially for energy efficiency? So on the question of energy, the new economies represent 90% of the world population. You could debate where the limit is. Is China part of that 90% because China, by many aspects, is already more developed than part of Europe or the US. So it's all a question of... But anyway, 90% of the world population. This morning I showed a slide that we're saying in the field of buildings you're going to have 100 billion square meters built in the cumulative of India on Africa in the next coming 30 years, which is 40% of the existing building stock that we have today. So we are recreating a world of 40% of what is existing today. So, well, first, I always had a curiosity, not a curiosity, more than empathy, the will to engage with all the people on the planet, especially people who live in different cultures, environments, and so on. I spend a large part of my time on the roads of the world and I've learned tons and I keep learning tons in those very different countries, different cultures and different ways to do things. Today Schneider does almost 50% of our business in new economies and I think we are much better because of it, because we have to design faster, we have to design more sustainable, we have to design cheaper. My only advice is, of course, we have to engage and we have to really work deep together. Second, the only people who can develop in new economies are people from the new economies. So we have to trust our local teams to do the right thing. And third, we have to develop technologies which are fitting the special... And we are doing that, right? I would say that 80% of what Schneider sells in new economies sells specially to the needs of new economies. And it's designed there, and produced there, and developed there. So that would be my thing. And don't forget, I mean, with 90% of the world population on most of the energy growth and emission growth is taking place there, the battle of climate change will be won there. Basically, the developer have to save a lot. To share, as many were saying before, in Africa, saving is a way for us to give access. We have one planet. The total quantity of carbon is finite. So people who are taking too much carbon, developed countries have to save on the carbon eyes. On developing countries, 2.8 billion people who will get access to energy must have their space for development. Excellent. And I hope this is a source of inspiration for many business leaders in this part of the world. So dear colleagues, we have time for one question for each of the colleagues here. I would again go to Madam Deputy Prime Minister. Sweden is a way, when we look globally, when wind comes to energy, a very stable country. As I said, a fortunate country in terms of the, it is energy resources. Manufacturing is very important for your economy and the competitiveness of the manufacturing is very important. Of course governments come and go, they change their policies. One of the differences between the previous Swedish government and your government is change in your view of nuclear power. So why this change and why do you think it is important? Why do you think the civilian had to make this change? Whereas in the other parts of the energy there were not so major changes, but when it comes to nuclear power, we saw a change. What was the reason for that? This is a big policy shift, just as you're pointing out, but the reason is because we're so highly invested in reaching our climate targets. As you said, governments have come and gone, but from right to left in Swedish politics there is really a strong commitment to the high set climate goals. We have since 2017 a special climate law, a long-term climate goal reaching net zero by 2045. We have a separate sort of climate council that meet regularly and also challenge politics, whether it be a blue, yellow, green, or red government doesn't matter. What we've seen is if we are to reach our high set climate goals, the way to do that and not lower our standard, our way of living, not saying to our citizens that, no, you will not see this company invest in Sweden or develop even further, there will be less job opportunities. If we're not to do that, then the way forward is electrification. We need to do a lot of energy efficiency, there's still a lot to be done. Although we've made a huge journey, we're a country of heat pump lovers, but although we've done a huge journey, we still have a lot to go, but energy efficiency alone won't cut it. We need to electrify our heavy industry, we need to electrify our transport sector. And to be able to do that, we'll have to meet an energy demand or an electricity demand that is more than doubled of what we have today by 24.5. More than doubled, that's a lot. So once again, if I put politics, what I'm trying to do as energy minister is basically taking some of the politics out of the energy politics and putting physics into play. We've done the math and the numbers just simply doesn't add up. We won't be able to meet a more than double demand of electricity unless we say all good powers unite. So that's sort of like the Swedish government's slogan, all good powers unite. And that's how we're trying to work across borders, party to party, country to country, but also in terms of the power sources. I don't care if it's water power, if it's solar power, wind power, or nuclear power. As long as it's fossil free and as long as it can give me the qualities to ensure a robust energy system. Because unless we move away from only discussing how much wind power should we have, move away from that very short-sighted, narrow discussion and over to what quality does the energy system need, what type of functions. We're not going to be able to tell, look our citizens in the eye and say this is what will deliver enough electricity when it is needed, where it is needed, but also at an affordable price and without the volatility of the energy system that we have seen. It has made it very vulnerable. It has made it unreliable. We need to move away from that. It's a long answer. The short parts are still highly and heavily invested in reaching our climate goals. Sweden is a frontrunner in the green transition, but if we are not to be left behind, we need a lot more electricity production. In the last eight years, Sweden approved one offshore wind power plant. In eight months, we've approved two and there will be more to come, but I now have, and I have the problem that I would like to approve more wind power, but unless I have enough base load, either from water power or from nuclear power, it's not possible to push more of that intermittent asynchronous power sources into the energy system. I need more of the synchronous power sources. If you speak of this at a press conference, the journalists go, what? That's why I told this to you earlier. This is the revenge of the energy system nerds. Finally, we get a revenge, but that is what is needed. I have huge respect for other member states, other colleagues choosing to go a different path. I know that wind power still has a lot to give in developing technologies, giving that sort of support functions that could give a more robust energy system. Politics hasn't even asked for that either. We've been a very proud nuclear power nation and we're coming back to that. We built 12 nuclear power plants in 15 years and while Sweden is out nuclear power shopping and also aiming to shorten the permit processes for renewables as well. We're doing both, all good powers unite. Perfect. Thank you very much, Madam Minister. Now, I will ask one final question to Jan Paskar. I will ask Brian to tell us what is next. Today, Jan Paskar, we had many ministers and some of them during their speeches said, I never realized that energy efficiency is so of an important policy instrument that I can use. That's a bit surprised to me because I thought it was, as the Americans say, no brainer in many cases. But it's still very good. We are very happy. Now, we can improve the energy efficiency in all end-use sectors in the buildings, transportation, industry. If you were the head of a government, if you had to choose the focus, your police attention in one of these three sectors, is it the buildings, is it the industry, or it is a transportation. What would you attack first? So I will answer like Eba, why choose? You need, I really think that it's end. It's never over. We need all decarbonized sources of energy, and we need all sources of energy efficiency. But here, I will offer you something. You ask my opinion. I will give you the opinion of 100 people. So while you were having the discussions during the day, we had two workshops of more than two hours with people who volunteered from companies and from the governments to engage together and really list what would make the difference. That was today, right? So it's all fresh from the oven. So I feel the duty to report, so I'm going to be the humble reporter of 100 very competent people who worked really hard today. I was a little bit worried that people this afternoon because you know the afternoon session is for JTAG people is always more complete, but there was even more. So here is a list. Nine things that don't come from me that come from you. And I want to thank all the people who participated. Number one, priority measure and diagnose. When you know what you are consuming immediately you save and you get much more responsible and you make immediate progress. Number two, awareness and practical examples. It was said in the previous panel, most of the people don't know what's possible. So let's exchange best cases, right? Let's have those, especially at the time of digital exchange on what I have done you can do it and circulate that knowledge. One very good example that was mentioned was that one stop shop in Ireland where if I want to make my house net zero in a non-commercial place that will tell me this is what you can put together to get better. Third one, which was a universal problem, not enough skills not enough people. Somebody was very provocative, we have too many academics we need more plumbers and more electricians if we want to save the planet. Think about it, if you are skilled today home automation, smart building person, you can make certainly a better carrier that many people might choose one can be academician. You can do both, I do that on weekends personally when I have time. Then third point which is really important and hear me out on that one let's design on deciding projects in function of the total cost of ownership. Take a building, take a factory construction cost 20% of the cost that will be incurred during the life cycle 90% of projects are decided on pure cost that is not responsible. Financing was said, the return on investment in energy efficiency is probably below 3 years we need governments and finance institution to bridge the gap of those 3 years and offer adapted on the problem and that will seem paradoxical of energy efficiency it is small financing small financing is much more difficult to put in motion than large financing. You don't inaugurate it, you don't have large ceremonies, you don't so. That was this. A point of the business I heard in the previous panel business have to show the example so the business say governments have a lot of buildings a lot of buildings are not always very efficient. Really important to make them the flagship of energy efficiency. Regulation the global opinion business on government is better to use the incentive than the stick. If there is a regulation to be put into place, make sure there is enough time of implementation that people can prepare and that it's not creating too many issues. And then finally I would say came many times especially on the industry session the grid needs to be electrical grid on the electrical power and I can only abandon with what you say needs to be reinforced there was the example of an industrial company trying to be green seven years to get access to a line that doesn't work. So bottom line of all this many thanks to all those who participated just a call for rally tomorrow there is another session on this other session is to go one notch deeper in recommendations and really isolate the key priorities that we would like to work on together but very practical very engaged very fruitful under a lot of learning on both sides. This is because of IEA event it was always because of IEA thank you Fatih. Of course bien sûr. So dear colleagues Jean Pascal didn't choose one of the sectors but the example he gave us on the building sector so it was an implicit choice but many thanks for also provide this recommendations so we should also inform you dear colleagues that we are hoping that tomorrow's minister session will end up with a statement from all the governments here summarizing how we see the importance of energy efficiency for affordability energy security and to address environmental issues and what concrete recommendations we suggest and this document will be hopefully important input for our meeting next year as minister Churchill mentioned taking place in Nairobi. So we were not again able to have minister Galushenko from Ukraine is I think many of you know one of the major hydro power dams was attacked which could have major implications for the safety of the people for environmental and I am sure he is dealing with this issue for which we wish him all the best. Now with this I would like to invite on one hand Brian Motherway my colleague to come here to tell us about the next steps but please join me to thank both Deputy Prime Minister and the key holder of the energy efficiency for this very nice, very pleasant chat. Thank you very much. So thank you very much. Thank you Dr. Bural. Thank you Deputy Prime Minister for the very nice closing session to what I hope you think has been a very nice day. We have been delighted to host you all here in conjunction with the French Ministry of Energy Transition and with the great support of our good friends in Schneider Electric. We love energy efficiency so when you all come and spend the day talking about energy efficiency we get very excited so thank you for giving us that joy. Tomorrow we have other interesting sessions at nine o'clock tomorrow morning a very interesting CEO fireside discussion. The details are all downstairs and another really important active Schneider Electric round table public private round table so do please join us again tomorrow. Also some site visits for those interested and if you haven't signed up for those you can still do so I think just about and of course our ministers all of the ministers and heads of delegation will be meeting downstairs tomorrow morning to discuss some of the issues we've raised today and as Dr. Burrell said we hope to release a joint statement from that ministerial session so watch the space we look forward to that. Meanwhile tonight it's a lovely sunny evening in Versailles so do please get a chance to walk around if you wish but everybody is cordially invited to join for dinner here downstairs in the main area there will be drinks and dinner starting shortly but it's a buffet style so you can get a little stroll, see a few old royal palaces come back and have dinner and we're looking forward to continuing the conversation. Some of you have been invited to a gala dinner in the Chateau we're looking forward to seeing you there so please convene with us at 6.30 outside the door here is just a five minute walk we'll take a few informal photos on the way of ministers and heads of delegation and we'll continue the conversation there always also so we're still not finished talking about energy efficiency we're going to do some more this evening we're going to thank Dr Burrell all of our speakers all of our participants and have a lovely evening thank you very much thank you