 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tom. What's going on buddy? How you doing? Hello friends apparently I just show up for like three weeks since at a time. That's how this works Didn't I mean Tyler's done it too. He'll be at a depth con which you won't be at because you're a big loser Yeah, it's the consequence of well of working but Oh Right because the rest of us don't have jobs who go to a depth card. No, I understand. We're all unemployed exactly Indeed I will miss it. It's the first one. I will have missed that actually happened in like five years So it makes me sad, but it happens So we're gonna talk about the worst rules in AOS tonight what makes them bad So we're gonna talk about the categories of bad and then look at some examples of bad and Hopefully we do this. This is a public service now. I'll go ahead and invoice GW later So that that way they don't write any more of these in the future. We only get good rules. That's the hope I mean, it's the it is the it's the fruit of you know That's just what that is. Yeah, we'll send them the contract Absolutely Okay, so but first of course the news So, how about that rumor engine? Ozzy arc bone reapers. It is the new hero is a guy who has some spears Is it really? That's my guess. I'm giving you a guess It looks like their rooms. It looks like a thing. They would do Yeah, I Don't know man. I mean, maybe it's pretty similar ish to the runes on their weapons Say those runes are pretty weird. I Don't know. I'm just saying. I don't know. Okay. Fine. I'll buy it Just like the the connector piece of where the room go or the hill goes to like the chat or the Blade goes to the shaft. Mm-hmm. Just saying that doesn't look It's not quite there brutalists, it's a little more round I understand but Yeah That's my guess you can guess different. Yeah. Yeah indeed indeed But but like it feels like this is the new Ozzy arc bone reapers hero that we'll get with the OBR book Like we're we're as your next news item. We'll talk about. Oh Yeah, we the The the battle tones that were announced or that we have covered for at least the corn and so much battle tones That's right. So we we I mean, I I saw it saffon. I saw it too I don't know what is to address about it other than it's incredibly hilarious So saffon mentioned that new Dante was leaked It's because leaked is the wrong word people or GW just shipped out the new one. Yeah, like leaked is the wrong thing like some people ordered Dante off of the site Like the old and GW is like here and just sent him the new version that none of us knew about or was released So I don't know what to do with that. I like if they're just releasing and spoiling their own models I can't I don't know I guess oops. Yeah, I mean that's an official release at that point is they literally released released Yeah, my answer is I think it is one of the most beautiful box art paint jobs I've seen so I don't know who the heavy metal painter was who did that that particular Box art for that Dante, but man, it was gorgeous. Like it's really good. It's really really good. So There you go. That's that's my answer But probably don't ship out unreleased product, I guess but it's an oopsie do you ship out thousands products a day And you've got warehouses full of unreleased product, which is what they have Somebody know it's some it's gonna happen. It's just like it was an inevitability That it happened. I'm amazed it doesn't happen more Anywho Okay, so yeah speaking of of to be released stuff that got announced Slenesh and corn battle tomes Yeah, so we know they're coming the timing couldn't be more annoying Because they're gonna go on pre-release this next weekend Which means we can't do a Show next week because next week is a depth reaction. Yeah. Yeah, like why don't don't pre-release things the week of adept conchees That's so rude so That So we'll have to do and then the week after that by the way I'm traveling So can we just can we just talk about the reality? It's gonna be a mess That GW only launches corn books in April I think there was Always the same part of the year Since the original I think all of them have been released in April that is not correct But they are all very similar in time period If you're saying like I know at least three now three of the five have been released in April Yeah, I mean they they are all they have all been released at a very similar corn has gotten a lot of books And they are all released in a very similar ish time period if that's what you mean, which is the beginning of the year Usually like the end of Q1 to like very beginning of Q2 so end of March early April They all kind of fall in that in that time period. Yeah I guess it's just it's the it's the cycle of when we expect Corn battle tomes. I can't say why that is but it but it is It's the season of blood apparently. So the very first one was released on April 1st 2017 That was the blades of corn. That was the one with the demon on the cover. Yeah Okay, then you had the follow-up blades of corn with corgis coal on the cover That was released on March 16th. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah But they're all in this kind of a time period, right? And and then you have this one coming out and yeah first week of April and you know, there you go There's your corn. And then you had the sorry original original recipe. Yeah, which was September Which was September? Yes. Yeah, but all three actual that first one wasn't a real battle. It was like an art book Basically, so then of our book with some worst roles thrown in Yeah, yep Yes, so that happened And we have slanash coming Love the new models. I mean, I like both of them Not that we you know need another slaughter priest. I know it's not a slaughter priest But you know corn priests sure just corn just throwing the priests around. I think that dude looks cool as I Agree and I mean, I don't disagree with that but I find a humorous that Called that that was probably just a new another new corn priests and I was right It's really a shame that the these models releasing when they are because the slanash guy is such a perfect single figure for golden demon It's shocking like it's one of the best golden demon figures. I've seen in a long time Beautiful open t-pose lots of skin Enough different textures like it's it's everything you dream about in a golden demon single figure So for for a OS. Yeah, but obviously too late for the one in the US So yeah, well, you'll have a year to work on it or or If you're doing the May right because isn't the Warmer Fest in May Warmer Fest isn't yeah And they do it. So you could do it. You could crack down Do I know? No No, I've almost died. I'm gonna die. Are I mean, aren't you a little bit tempted? No, but by slanash, just no no Not at all. I've suffered enough. I have I have and I'm not done yet. I'm still working We'll talk about it in hobby time. But anyways, uh, so yeah, so those new tomes Realistically what's gonna happen is the slanash show is gonna have to be a road show Which will be an inopportune time and a very painful way to review a book But there's just no other choice and then we'll do the corn when the week after that So all of the battle tone reviews will be delayed by a week. I apologize everyone But this is just the way it is so Yeah, that's fair that's fair um and then we have the Old-world weapon article With some of our old favorites, of course That's the way I grabbed. Yeah, I grabbed the Tomb Kings weapons as the image to share with everybody I saw Tomb King Tristan and everybody like celebrating These all look fine. They're renders. I want to see the real things like renders mean nothing to me But sure they they look fine Everything looks fine Yeah, I saw that and I was like do I wait to do OBR until I can get bits of the new Tomb Kings Obviously you wait That's that's that's obvious Because I mean who knows when this until we see a new book. We're still only seeing weapons like we haven't even seen a Thing no, no, no, no, I would be using those this thing is 2024 Yeah, I agree with that It seems like they're doing a pretty big design though, right? Like is it just me or like it? Like because we've seen things for how many armies now Five six Yeah chaos Empire the various Empire forces Brutonia wood Elves Tomb Kings And you consider the ice people Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no and kiss love kiss love. Yeah, there you go. Thank you That was the other I was trying to think of I mean I assume they'll be all the elf crap in there, too So sure, I mean like who knows who knows how much stuff it'll launch with but you know, assumingly a decent amount You know, I'm excited We'll see though. We'll see when we actually get home models, right? Sure. And we're still quite a ways ways off from that Man that the great blade though Yeah, they look nice when I saw that I was like I am in yes, please Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's just me But you know like bits don't excite me that much like yep, that's a weapon. That's what I thought when I saw this I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer or anything But I was like show me a model models matter to me bits or bits. That's fine You could be as negative as you want. I see that and I'm just like mmm. I know some models I can attach that to yes, sir I've looked great Yeah, so that's that's news for the week. That's the news absolutely. All right So with that, let's go to some pick. Oh the week Tom what would you like to share with everybody? Man, you know, I knew that you were gonna jump over to me and I thought you know, I could really prepare something but Then I was like, you know what I'm gonna go for it. I loved It's it hasn't dropped yet, but I'm just gonna let you know about it. It's coming This is like this is a recommendation from the future. Okay. Um, it is Coach is doing a show a KO show with Jeremy Viserie in three days Okay, and I'm gonna tell you it's gonna be good. Sure So if the KO even slightly excites you check that show out Okay Mine is very simple Rob put up a response and in the continued journey of this drama Rob put up a response to Miniac's video. I'll link it down below And I thought it was fantastic. It was really well. We're gonna have him on the show Miniac Well after a depth con is the answer. I already talked about so it'll be we're trying to find the exact week He's got a couple things that normally happen on Wednesday nights. So we okay Well, I am I am in for his show if if it's on my week Okay, because I'm not here anyways if that's the case But but I wouldn't mind I wouldn't mind being here for that conversation So yeah, I'm looking forward to it Like I said and we'll talk about some of the things that he mentioned some of the things he mentioned in his video Come up tonight in our presentation like it's you know, so there you go. Yeah. Yeah, I mean not all those points are bad No, absolutely not But the but that you know Rob's response video. I thought was just really well argued and put together and It was just a really really nice well-produced Sort of video and walk through of like the value of different things in the game experience and why it matters and you know Ultimately a lot of what is being discussed here And this is what well This is what I'll talk about when it comes to the show when we have many act on it's just It's not just point of view because that's what it easily says like people often devolve into this Well, you like this you don't like this this yay boo conversation. No, but that's like too simple Really, I think that what it comes down to is the psychographic profiling that we discussed Obviously those things extend beyond the armies you select and the type of rules you like they extend all the way up Into the types of games you enjoy. Yeah, yeah, because games are often tilted toward one way or the other and like the nature of this game of AOS as a whole regardless where the individual armies fall it is a pretty Timmy Johnny game like that's sort of how it's architected and What that means ultimately is that Scott who is a pretty traditional dead center spike Okay It's not going like isn't gonna and that's you know, he mentioned I watched some of his stream And he mentioned in a stream that like, you know when he played a song of ice and fire He played like two games event. He was like, this is great. I love this. I love everything about it I love the experience right and And that's just it. I played a song of ice and fire under him. This is a perfectly fine game I played it. I felt nothing right as just like I it wasn't I didn't I didn't think to myself This is bad. I thought this isn't for me and the reason was because I'm like a very traditional Timmy This game speaks to me and the things that happen in it speak to me and stuff like that, right? So again, it's it's it's not just taste. It's there's a psychology here, right? If what aligns whether you're aware of it or not It's not a conscious thing as usual your subconscious mind is something like 200,000 times more powerful than your conscious mind So it's actually what's in charge You've just got a pilot that's that's playing with like the the little children's toy Like the beginning of the Simpsons where Maggie thinks she's driving the car. That's all it is. Yeah, I'm in charge Right. Yeah, but it's it's really your subconscious is driving. So anyways Cool, that's that's the pics check them out. Check out Rob's video. It's fantastic. Let's talk about some hobby time my dog Hobby time what you've been working on Tom. What's on your desk? I? I have been My fingers are sore from opening complete bundles Your hobby time is my magic card. It's got it wrong hobby. No, so I the real the real thing that I've been working on is My hobbies face. I had mentioned it before It's It is about to get a renovation. I have some major work happening in the next couple days. And so this is what I've been working on the last couple days. So some people are coming in and doing some some waterproofing work, which is Desperately needed and then and then and then it'll be on with all the larger the larger projects So I'm excited about that Well, let me tell you what I have had an intense week of hobby extravaganza my friend it has been Intensity in 10 cities. So obviously all my entries for Golden Demon are packed up right here in this thing They're they're packed up not because I'm done with them They're packed up because I wanted to put him in there to protect him from dust as I pulled them out Individually to work on them because they were in a key they were in cases previously like in these cases But I was I spent the weekend with Sam with our good friend friend of the show Sam Lenz and We were just we just spent the weekend hopping away on Golden Demon stuff passing pieces back and forth giving each other recommendations and tightening and tightening and tightening You know, it's amazing if you think you're like, I'm in a good place the piece and then I spent another Easily 12 15 hours on it like oh geez There's actually a lot more to do here and then I got back I was like, okay I'm definitely done now and then I spent more hours on it after taking pictures of it and seeing more things I didn't like right and So the The And I'm still gonna keep pulling them out and keep working on them That's that's you know over this weekend and Monday and Tuesday There's gonna be more work more work more work before before we actually go Gonna do my absolute darndest to put myself in the best position I can for this year I've been hanging out with ninja on this week as well like virtually not in person He lives in Minnesota obviously we've been pushing each other. So she's been a very hobby intensive time now I Did have a couple hours there where I just couldn't stare at my Golden Demon entries anymore and needed to like cleanse my palette So I have this little ranger here on my desk From this is many acts ranger actually and I'm really excited about this guy I just played around with some different skin tones and different colors It's not really gonna read well on this video even in the scale. He's in you can see a little bit of that blue coming up from below These guys are 75 I think actually Think I don't even know he's bigger. It doesn't matter And Man it was so much fun to just be like I'm not worrying about perfect. I just want to play with colors I just want to paint something. I just want to experiment like Golden Demon painting is exhausting and I've got some plants post Gd regardless of the outcomes to do like a Full length video and like sort of where I'm at with it So and and that'll have some journey in it and stuff like that. So it'll be fun It'll be fun, but that guy some of the most refreshing painting I've done I had such a fun time doing it and just playing with with with colors man just going nuts. I love skin tone and painting skin and stuff like that and Yeah, but then but for now and for the next week that crap continues Okay So with that Tom, I think it's time that we turn to tonight's topic. I know I'm excited Although man, we are losing our touch. It's been 23 minutes before we got the through news No, actually was 30 seconds. So it's okay. Oh, we got started late. We got started a few minutes late So the worst day was rules and what makes them bad One of the fun things about this when I when I posted up this was the show topic Some of the people in the comments early on who had like joined in were like, well, what do you mean? Do you mean this? Do you mean this? Do you mean this? Do you mean this? Do you mean this right? Because there's so many ways to define it. Yeah, exactly exactly and the answer is yes That is what I mean. So we're gonna talk about what makes rules bad You're gonna give some examples of those rules I look for I look to you people in the audience comments when we talk about the the strata of rules I'd love to hear your examples of similar rules because I couldn't think of everything like you know I I have a pretty good memory for the rules of AOS, but I don't couldn't remember every rule in the game as I was writing this I want your own personal examples of them. Oh, there's some news. He's out there so Let's let's get into it. So but first a little summary Hey, just sigmar is a good game a great game even and I love it I just want to like that's I want to lay that down. I play this game a lot And I really love playing this game all of these bad rules are usually proud nails They're things that stick out like you have this wonderfully beautiful deck and then there's this little single nail Just like me sticking up out of it, right ready to catch your foot Yeah, doesn't make the whole deck bad doesn't mean you can't enjoy a nice summer day out there with you know, maybe a tea All right listening to the birds saying something like that But when you run into that nail you it hurts. That's exactly. Yeah. Yep So So but no part of us saying that there are some bad rules in this game makes the game overall a bad game Okay, right. Okay God That's not a direct response to anyone. That's just me laying it down No, I know it's joke. The meta is tightening more armies are competitive more new books and 3.0 are coming out wonderful This is more and more true every time like I've been Unbelievably happy for the most part with the books there are arguments I would take there are individual books that I don't like but but like we are in the best time We've ever been there are still some concerns about complexity. We've voiced them on this show And I do think and hope that when 4.0 comes out We like understand that and create the sort of simplified battle pack That's how you play the game core and then have like the event or tournament battle pack that layers on all that extra Crap that we don't need in every game. It's like the simplest thing to do in the world It's the simplest thing to do in the world GW hi Hello GW designers who are watching this please Next year when you are inevitably released fourth edition Can you please have a simple core experience and it's not the thing that's in the book now? It's not that's not big enough And it's not it's neither three battle plans is not a thing Including the battle tactics not a thing. I want the primary loop of the game and the experience objectives you take models you play with You know all the basic the basic stuff the primary loop of the game should be a fundamental simplified battle pack That you can build on and then your other battle packs can build on top of that and add in complexity It's all I ask It is not the existing core battle pack. It's not It's just not Really hard about this do you think I'll get the memo I hope I really do Because I think some people in that company think it is and it's not yeah All right, that's not functional. It's it's both. It is both somehow too light and too heavy Correct bad combination All right enough of that There are however some rules that are just bad and they point to larger challenges within the system or third rails That shouldn't be crossed And we'll talk about a few of those Importantly a bad rule can still be okay to have in the book It's a question of impact like it's sometimes you can have a bad rule in a book and it can be okay in context But you know like you've got to measure the impact these things aren't just necessarily like oh all bad Right All all bad Whatever right It's like one bad equals all bad. That's not the case. That's not the statement. Okay All right, so Uh Well, I know chase that might be what you want, but that's not gonna be what happens like it's happening But the train left the station regardless. They're on the three-year cycles homie. This is what it is Shareholder value my dog This is where we live now This is where we live so get on the train or get run over Besides if I get my scaven launchbox as I've predicted many times on this show, I'll be happy about it. So there you go Um, okay Who or who knows or or you know what they'll juke us because that's what they also do They do like the same thing for a long time and then just suddenly left her and without explanation So maybe it won't be maybe it'll just be like no we're never changing additions again It's just always this and we're just gonna put out like a living rule set. That's all digital. Okay. Yeah, they could do that too Who knows I like I Don't know for sure It's going to be a mockery of the island of blood and it will be dark elves or scaven All I'm saying is gw manufacturers black swans Okay, and like I don't want to too much be the turkey here that is like well today I woke up and it was I was taken care of and I was well fed Tomorrow will be exactly the same I eventually Thanksgiving comes true So anyways, who knows they could they could totally like Go left on me on me and that would be very funny um Like hey that thing that you thought was definitely the case is no longer the case and and fine Hey, I hope they do go to a living digital rule set that's constantly updated. That's available free and Uh, that they can make changes onto the fly like hey, I don't you're getting a hard thumbs up for me on that one Yeah, I don't think either of us will complain at that point. No. No. No, I would love to be surprised. Okay Let's talk about rules. Why can they be bad? Well, they can be bad for many reasons There's no silver bullet or single reason that rules go wrong and sometimes they can be combinations of these things But this is kind of the flavor of it All right, sure. Yeah Rules can of course be overpowered. That's just the baseline. That's the easy one Right. I mean, I don't I don't know if I believe that but go ahead Well, sure they can Right, uh, like that's a very easy thing to conceptualize. We've seen tons of these Uh, we're gonna by the way not reference super old things. I'm trying to reference things that are in the game now I'm not going to talk about the history of the game that they're corrected But like Origin you've mentioned it a thousand times Right the original vanguard wing is just clearly too powerful I mean, I don't know. I thought it was delightful. Yeah, sure But like that's a That's a great example of something over like way over the top Right But you can you can pick your overpowered thing but But that's sort of the like smoothest brain example Yeah, no as an aside, I think that that's not actually what that is. Um, that's not an example of just raw power Right. I think what you just described is one of the things we're gonna talk about later in the show Which is I think that I think that that's like touching a third rail more than anything else Well, my third rails are interesting Because yeah, usually a third rail Means it's so fundamental. So We should take a moment to explain exception based design sure The way this game is written Is exception based design exception based design means you start with a set of rules That's the core. That's the core And how the game functions and then most of the rest of your rules create exceptions to that rule okay so like Normally you roll to hit then roll to wound But then you have a rule that says if your role is six to hit it deals a mortal wound and the attack sequence stops So you don't roll to wound anymore. You don't make a save because it did a mortal wound That's an exception to the normal process All right, okay exception based design Third rails are just third rail fund violations are just generally things that touch to a core that create an exception to a core rule That shouldn't be accepted from Right, right like so fundamental the game will just jump Like yeah, the it's so fundamental that the game no longer function based on core conceptions So in that instance The fact that you could like deploy into combat so there were no charges anymore, right Right like that's a third round. You could teleport in you could teleport out You could realign troops you could you know, it was like it was all over there It broke so many rules that were fundamental to the game simultaneously It's it was hard to even conceptualize like it was shattering basically all of the combat rules at once Yeah, yeah, it's great So at any rate, but it was also manifested to be extremely powerful Now if your point is that's why I say some of these things can be multiple and often getting to the rca Like what's the actual root cause can be difficult? Right sometimes you're look you might look at the symptoms easier to identify than the than the than the disease as it were Yeah, okay Rules can be over designed just being too complex too wordy too difficult to understand This is a thing that happens where it's just like if it takes you that Two paragraphs of rules to explain the dumb thing Then it probably isn't worth writing the thing Right go back and think of a different rule right and I know that sounds a a Uh, a strange sort of exception to live by but as a designer the number of times that I've went I just can't get this into Into a rule. It's time to just pick something different. It's something you bust me on all the time Right, uh, so I mean it's fair. I get it. Yeah Go go rewrite this. It's too complex Yep It's too it's too confusing for what what we're trying to accomplish Yep Rules can be in general to be fair Um, you actually don't make that mistake much. No, I don't think I do much anymore I think I've internalized a lot of this and often in the design process. I'll stop myself from doing it um Rules can be two corner case Uh, being extra weight on your memory and the system with basically no payoff This is this is one of this sounds like a sort of minor sin, but to me it's actually quite important Because if you get too much of this It ends up becoming barnacles on the bottom of the boat that just creates drag On the overall system because it's all this useless crap That you're trying to internalize and remember that's actually getting in the way of you remembering Essentials essentials. Yeah, exactly Yep, um, uh, so KO used to have a lot of this with all of it. Absolutely At different ranges Absolutely It's just like insane loadouts. Everything was a different range. And so and and everything was different hit and wound numbers Um, and so it was like this one three up to hit four up the wound This one's four up to hit three up the wound. This one's four up two up This one's two up three up Sure Yeah, and on a six this happens But only for this one gun in the unit and this other unit does something on the this other gun does something On a six to wound instead unless you trigger this other special rule you can do once a game and it's just like Yep, it's not like that anymore. So again, like oftentimes a lot of these have been fixed in their updates Yeah, um, but some of this stuff still does uh linger. Oh, yes. Yes. Well, we'll give examples of all these Rules can be npe. They can cause a negative play experience that is too strong for their value and to be clear Lots of people will have npe from various effects when we did our npe survey, you know A lot of people just rated shooting As as the strongest npe in the game I will bet by the way tom if I ran that exact same survey again shooting would still show up It would still be popular, but it wouldn't be one anymore Yeah Because the shooting has been constrained because it was shooting in the particular circumstances being as powerful as how long range is dealing more to wounds as accurate, you know, we talked about the ways that this thing goes wrong right Uh, and so like but sometimes the negative play experience will be so strong That it isn't it isn't worth the payoff like lots of things can be npe But you just have to do it like yeah, sure you're you're trying to win a game You're trying and somebody somebody's we're gonna win somebody's gonna lose So, you know, like there's gonna be some negative experiences in there. You're gonna get your toys picked up Right, that's what will happen things will die. You will fail dice will roll badly Like those those are all true So it's not as though just the It's not as though just the existence of npe in general suddenly makes a rule bad. It's when it's so strong that it just Bump tips the scales right um And then finally rules can be too weak So they're just bad at any price this most often manifests with sort of whole war scrolls Right where the the war scroll is just as itself as a combination Too too weak like so it's just there's no world Yeah, there's no there's no point value that it's takeable Where it doesn't just bust the game because you got to put it at like 10 points five points You know something ridiculous and then it even the monsters the old monsters like the gorgon and visa chaos Like they sat in this world for a long time Yep, I agree with hey, whoa, by the way, he says rolling a one is npe. We should take out rolling ones I agree Didn't we do that for a whole edition? Hey, well when we all could reroll like ones all the time on everything And then that was also terrible. I don't I don't ever remember rolling a one in second edition Yeah, those were you didn't roll once Those were those were I guess if I got I don't think ogres had as much reroll ones So probably still they had to deal with it so poor. Hey, whoa, maybe find a better faction Oh No, he did he's just he sticks with this faction. They eventually become good again. They're pretty good now. So he's in good place Loyalty is its own reward Uh Yes, gareth says vents hates rerolling ones. I mean they named their channel after a bad mechanic. I don't know what to say. Sorry So, oh, maybe they don't exist anymore. They don't exist anymore. Yeah, we we we got rid of them And just uh and just put them in now it now it's uh, they they need to be like plus one to hit now or something. I don't know That's a channel. Okay So, tom, is there anything I missed on this list? um By the way, I didn't mention the third rail thing specifically on here because I think most of the time the third rail violations will Will actually have one of them Yeah, they'll manifest into one of these Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree with that. Um, I think that So too limited too over designed too weak um, just not fun um, no, I think that this get this gets most of um Like one thing that you're not like and maybe this is This might be person specific, but for me, there are some that are too risky Okay, or to Like I don't think it fits in any of these, right? Maybe two corner case, but even then I don't think that's the equivalent of this Maybe too weak, but it's the idea that it's just so random Yeah, well, we'll talk about it because I have one in here that's like that and you can argue whether or not you think it's its own group Like we'll we'll get to the example. Yeah, there is sort of the that one I don't have on here that would be fair, but it's sort of the absence of the thing I mean that literally the absence of the rule Uh, so terrain rules would be the example of this, right? Like the fact that they are basically non-existence In a s is the is the bad rule now I left that out because I can't call it a bad rule when it's the null set It's a problem that it's not there, but it itself is not a bad rule That's not what you'd label it if I had no ice cream. I wouldn't call that a bad cone of ice cream Okay, no, I mean we have terrain rules, right? We have like key words, right that do sure They just don't do enough or they're not meaningful. I either too weak I guess I don't part of the problem is I don't know that any of the rules We have for terrain are out now bad. It's just there's not enough of them. They aren't doing the right thing So I guess maybe that's too weak Maybe but you know, I don't know It's like But the absence of something that feels like it needs to be there is something I didn't talk about here It's it's not bad. It's just not here. That's exactly what okay SDM just said So we're not talking about terrain today, but know that certainly as we have discussed Many times on this shows the missing or incomplete rules, especially in the way of terrain is certainly a challenge when it comes to this When it comes to to current world aos That's another thing. I'd love to see him fixed with fourth edition. Nice simple easy terrain set um So there we go Okay, now let's get into some specifics Shall we? Okay, of course Let's talk. Let's talk about some specific bad rules Uh or bad rule types. Let's start with corner case Okay, the emblematic one to me here there are like 50 I could have picked as emblematic of this But I really love this one because it's so bad All right Yeah So which is the relic sensor So this is off of the bad the night relic door The bad one So not the good one not the good lord relic door, but the night relic door the one that you've never seen on a table ever Zero percent inclusion rate. This is his only rule by the by This is literally his only rule Other than hit wound with a weapon Okay Each time a friendly storm cast eternal's unit Holy within 12 inches of this unit is affected by a prayer or the abilities of an invocation You can roll a dice on a four up ignore the effect of that prayer or the effects of that invocation's abilities on that unit Right, so it's if you're playing corn fire slayers Maybe because they don't you often use offensive prayers and neither do fire slayers like sometimes Some weirdos like you take the little magma hurler, but I've never seen him do enough The infern off it like is whatever. Yes. Yes So, you know scaven priests have like One A couple prayers that they might do that's that's offensive, you know, so the great plagues if they trigger them But you know most of the time what you're doing with your scaven priests is You're buffing your own dudes. That's the prayer you do most corn priests are buffing their own dudes They're putting on, you know, the the bonuses and just getting bloodtie than doing things they do I mean, I mean curse is a thing Sure kind of Like again, it's not that okay the corner case isn't A priest Right important part of it. It's not that it doesn't exist. That's really important. Okay It's not that like blood boil doesn't exist or the molten infern off doesn't exist or stuff like that It corner case doesn't mean zero value and this is the thing like already people have put But but but but but but in in the chat folks, I could play 50 games In 10 tournaments and never ever easily never run against any of those things and In the one game or two games where I did It would not be worth in any world spending 130 ish points on a guy that gives me a 50-50 shot Not automatic guard only units holy within 12 of them right to of a short-range foot hero Yes, okay That's the point Like it's not that it's totally worthless. It's that on balance. It's so corner case That it will Basically never come up and even if it did it wouldn't be worth taking the thing that gave it to you in the first place because of the opportunity cost Right, right because you could take 130 points could buy for you otherwise That would be be useful in a large percentage of the games. Right Right, so Well chase chase or garith said who cares? Well, I'll tell you why I care garith Uh, sure, you're absolutely right. There's these two players heat this sort of imaginary situation hypothetically describes But here's why I think it's actually bad. It's bad for two reasons First yeah, it doesn't do much of course priests are rare offensive spells or even rarer and even then it's only on a four plus Right to in a short range in a short area in a small place on the board on an easily removable hero current season aside now But the second reason and the real reason this thing is toxic is because units like this Pose a barrier to new players now to an expert like you garith who can look at a war scroll And no quality. You know, you're never going to take this thing You read it once and go no never pass hard pass But this that relies on an incredible amount of game knowledge to evaluate this thing I need to know like when I read the rules for this thing I need to understand how common are priests in the game? How common are prayers in the game? How common are offensive prayers in the game? How much damage or or debilitation to my units do those offensive prayers stand to do? What other methods do I have to interact with those prayers? Okay, and how good is ignoring it 50% of the time? That's a lot Of knowledge I have to have about the game state Now if you're in it to win it if you're deep in the game you can evaluate you can do that in seconds Yeah, you can look at that and be like pass Prima fascia if you're experienced at the game you understand that this is crap Yeah, it's like Nice Um, uh, it's like for those of you like, you know, here's our our regular magic references for those of you that draft Like you you can look through a pack and know what's worth taking and what's not. Yep. Yes But you're like, yes. Yes. No pass pass pass, right? Right, but when you're a new player or a low knowledge player casual player, whatever like I don't want I again I don't want to like I'm not trying to malign. It's not a skill thing It's perfectly okay to be those things, right? Everybody's a new player and most people are casual players. That's fine It just puts such a barrier of knowledge and the more of this crap that exists One it puts a drag on overall internal balance and overall in in the book because these units never get picked All right Two it creates more traps And and difficult choices for new players to evaluate because they have to understand so much about the game state to know Whether or not this thing is bad Right rather than just like and you might say like You might say yeah, but don't you have to know that stuff for all Scrolls No, because sometimes things just work If you just roll up to the book and go hey these dragons stormcast book in this case these dragons look pretty cool You're not evaluating them They seem like they do cool stuff neat. They breathe fire looks like some decent attacks to me as seems cool I'll take them Right, and then they just work they do roughly what it says on the tin Do you get maximal value out of them? No, but they do something because they're not they're functional enough Right, so that's why corner cases are bad If you just take chaos warriors or chaos knights, you know, you read chaos nights and it's like, okay So that's you I'm supposed to charge these guys because they have lances. Okay, cool. I get that I'm supposed to charge like I know there's a thing called charging in this game. I'll try to do that Right, and if you do that they work pretty well right like When that when you it's not hard to charge. It's not a corner case thing that kind of stuff, right So, uh So there you go Also, I love coup all said New player. What's an invocation? Also veteran player. What's an invocation? Yeah, exactly No, that is exactly the point right there. Yeah um So, you know This kind of stuff. I just think is incredibly bad for not just the base reason of like, yeah, it's just bad on his face right, uh but also it's a It's it causes this greater meta problem in the substrate of the game There we go Anything else I missed on that one? Nope Okay Cool. So yeah, corner case stuff Please stop writing absolute garbage like right better rules Like this is just utter garbage Yeah, like if that rule was on a 75 point storm cast hero, I'd be like I'd still say no Do I need somebody to hit hit hit other people or stand on a point? Here's the fun part if it was on a 75 point storm cast hero and it functioned on a two up I'd still be a bit of pass Because the set is so small of things that this works for Right. Well, that's what I'm asking. Is it worth having somebody to like charge and attack people with? On a slow foot hero is like Because you're you're assuming that rule will never ever actually Be usable on the table, right? So you're buying them for their ability to foot slog and charge Yep Yep, okay Uh So, yeah, there you go Please stop doing these kind of corner case rules. They're just not good if you're going to create a special exception This isn't a great. This is a classic exception based design here Please make sure the the The historical example of this I always use I've used this a thousand times But I will repeat it here as we close out corner case And that is the following example Back in my day when we were playing jacks down at the soda shop because I'm an old man when I started playing Uh warhammer back in the late 90s And it was playing, you know fourth edition and then fifth edition and eventually dogs war came out I love me some dogs and war Some dogs war And you had lumpencrups. They were these little halflings that were great Okay And they would they could do all sorts of they were little halfling archers Wonderful wonderful little unit. I still have two units of them to this day and I love them They're character full beautiful wonderful sculpts And they had a special rule That was immune to way watcher traps at that time the wood elf army Had a unit called way watchers way watchers could pick one one woods On the board and trap it and the first unit to move into that woods They had to secretly note it on their sheet The first unit to move into that woods took like d6 strength five hits off the top of my head If that's true boy, I can't believe I remember that but it's somewhere in that space. Maybe it's a string six hits but either way That is hilarious. So Here's a special rule that only works against wood elves right against one unit of wood elves and only if I wander into the one woods That they happened to have trapped And then only for my one unit, but at least it did have the decency to be immune and not on a four up or something So I guess that's cool so like that That immune to way watcher traps is the classic example Like how many points am I paying for this is the joke we always made and on the relic sensor I think how many points am I paying for this Can I just combine this guy for 90 points and just get literally that's what you're describing a hero on foot without this ability Like how what's the savings if he doesn't have this? Okay All right, next up massive n pe Uh It's a total eclipse of the heart like this is the example. It is the it's like the ur example Okay How did this make it into the new book? That's what I want to know Uh, I like I I look at this rule and I just I just shake my head and it's funny too because I've played against this So much, you know, one of my regular players every other weekend basically last year or more since this book came out. Yes right One of my players in my group is a luminous player He always runs total eclipse. He's like and and he says openly He's like if I'm being a jerk or you don't want me to do this, you know, I'll stop taking this Okay, I'm like, nope. It's in your army. If it's a thing you want to do Didn't take it. I I own it's like it's not your fault I'm not going to make you suffer or constrain yourself because they printed a bad rule go nuts You don't go for it Right, it's fine. Then it's normally assumed. He has half the number of command points that he actually has right in normal games I'm so it is it is Bread in me a real command point discipline. I'll say that playing under these kinds of conditions, right? It's like your grandparents that grew up during the depression or whatever Although that's not true for most people alive now at this point. Yeah, most of their grandparents probably grew up in the 90s um, but uh, but Um But uh, you know, they they become very frugal, right? Yeah. Yeah So So the the total eclipse is just like the the ur example of this All rules have some good and bad. It's important to state that here, right? Yep um, but this kind of stacks effect Uh in or you know in Warhammer just is terrible Is terrible. It's such a powerful effect, but it just completely wrecks some armies just shuts them down And I I think I think to to key into this it's not that stacks effects So stacks would be things that are like hindering the other player or delaying them It's not that those types of effects are inherently bad from a design standpoint. No Um, the problem is is that not all rules were designed with those things in mind in the ecosystem Yeah And Importantly, it's the size of the impact as well Yeah meteors fall to earth all the time Okay Or are they meteorites? Which one is it? Is it like when it meteorites for the tiny ones? Well, no, it's not it doesn't have to do a size as do with location. I don't remember, but Okay, it doesn't matter. Well, I'm just gonna use meteor if I'm using it wrong, please astronomers in the in the Chat please correct me, but they fall to earth all the time all the time regularly there's all sorts of space junk Dropping into our atmosphere on the rag and it's fine You know for the most part our atmosphere burns it up little tiny you get little bright specky dots And it's like yay, that's pretty you know these little things streak across the sky you go out and watch a little meteor shower, right? But when the one hits that ends the dinosaurs, it's a big deal, right? So the size of the impact matters sure Okay Meteorite survived and landed got it. There we go. Okay. So meteor in the sky meteorites are the ones that land Thank you. Thank you everyone much appreciated. I knew that I knew it had to do with location I just couldn't remember which was which So my point is is I'm not gonna the banshee rule Has all like in night haunt has almost the exact same effect Right That's total. Yep, but I would never complain about the banshee You have to move a relatively fragile piece into a relatively close position And then you have to get the effect off and it only affects one unit. There's counterplay against it Wait, what are we talking about the same thing? Yeah, the banshee. She has the single target total eclipse Oh, got it. You're talking about the shout. I was thinking about the mere mourn banshee and the spell No, no, no, no the banshee the single banshee not the mere mourn banshee. Correct. Correct. Yes Right. She has a targeted one. Yep, and it's fine because it's not as though this design Isn't is like toxic at its core It's toxic when it's I cast one spell that by the way this book that contains this rule can basically power out automatically Right. They can just assume that this goes off. Yeah Right. The fact that it casts on an eight means absolutely nothing to them If this was in an ogre army Yeah, yeah Right because they just be rolling for this and just hard casting and praying But I got it this time. I got it this time. Let's do it. Right But there are some so so one the army that's doing it can basically do it at will To the point sometimes in an unbindable way depending on the pieces they have at their disposal Okay, yeah Uh, and then it's so powerful because it's the whole board Everybody's affected Automatically until your next hero phase kill the hero who cast it or not Doesn't matter. It just puts the static effect on them. It's only enemies Imagine if total clips worked as it did, but it was the entire board. Sure. If it was a symmetrical effect Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, it'd be very different And certain armies will just wither under this Right that rely on their cps to actually function Yeah, we mentioned ko last week. That's a big one if you're playing a ko army and you didn't go in super hard on cp generation Yeah, and suddenly you face a total eclipse. You're in a rough spot At basically using your allegiance abilities Yeah, that's rough and they're not the only example There's plenty of other armies that we could pick like that that that rely on those cps So it's just this is We beat the heck out of total clips. We get it. Can you think of some other truly massive npe? Examples out there tom in the ecosystem? I mean this is clearly the worst So There's there's a couple other ones that i'll throw out there that are that are super strong npe Would you consider would you consider marathi's max three wounds npe like this of this magnitude? No, I wouldn't is it npe? Yes. Is it bad? Is it is it bad enough to qualify? No Massive is the key here. Yeah. He has only two models. Yeah Yeah, it's only two models and it's also constrained by the fact she can't heal Right I'll give you another example a new contender. Thank you very much inquisitors got there right as I was about to say it gosh darn it But yes the new cockatrice Just unbelievable npe Um able to sit six inches away Stack multiples of its of its abilities, you know post faq Right and make it so an attacking unit only hits on sixes Wild Yeah wild Okay You know and a lot of other things like this have been beaten out of the game Uh old purple sun would have would have fallen into this Yeah, okay Old yeah, thank you old rat trap the old vortex The old corn demon prince bloodslate ground those all would have those those have all been beaten out of the game But somehow a couple of these things survive Yeah, right and That's but that cockatrice just snuck in there Yeah, and it's crazy strong like that just That thing just shuts off melee armies. Just they're dead in the water 75 chance they just do nothing Never kill a thing That's rough It's the strongest debuff in the game Yeah Right Yeah No, you're not wrong Yeah, I mean there are limitations on it sure like but but Yeah, yeah Oftentimes some weird play can can work its way in here. So The squig hurt will come up later but The ability of the squig hurt like being able to manipulate the rules can often fall in here So like you you purposely go fight that you purposely take the squig hurt into something That will kill just a few of them you purposely break coherency Kill a ton of your squigs in the coherency, right and then and then they all flee and you you Do that, right? Then you blow them up do damage and then bring them back by the and then bring them all back Not off a rally but off of just the the herders All just getting around and humping d3 of them back into existence. Yeah Right Yeah, or you bring them back by the gate like half of them you put half of them back on the table by the gate sure So all of these things fall under massive npe to me. Um Summoning when it goes way too when it's ramped way too high. So like Uh, you know slanesh summoning for another couple days would fall into this category Uh, certainly old slanesh summoning would Um I'm just assuming it'll be I don't know anything about what's in the new book But I I'm assuming that it'll be fixed old pink horse Sure Sure Yep, yeah This is all all npe stuff Um, okay, like where it's just its impact is so large it warps everything around it, right? Okay Because and I think the key with this is where you got to watch out for you You got to say am I playing in a space? That's already a negative play experience summoning shooting restoring units right Disrupting the enemy with you know, very strong debuffs Am I already doing that and am I making the thing too strong too reliable too large too impactful? That's the key Right Okay Next up Roll dice to roll dice Hmm I hate this one I love rolling dice and I know like this drives you insane because I'm like I love it And you're just like you you just roll dice for like 45 seconds to do zero to do nothing Yeah, but I do nothing Sure. Look, I like rolling dice too Okay Uh, I think it's fun. This is a dice game. So so I mean let's lay down some some basics here This is a dice game Uh Part of this is kind of actually like miniac mentioned this a little bit He gave what I think is a not a great example of it He was upset his his writers have ruined one of the strongest abilities in the game that a melee unit has Goes off on a three up and I'm like, yeah, because otherwise that unit would be impossible to point Right. Yeah, I'm because that ability is so strong Uh, but so sometimes you need to put things behind a single dice roll and I get that like roar Would be way too strong if it was automatic. It's already incredibly strong Um, and and on a three up it at least makes it like so there's some chance of failure And and dice rolls and rng mechanics lets you play with things that are slightly too strong But that have chances of failures that way you can't rely on them And the fact that we use that mechanic regularly makes this not a spike game But a timmy game because spike hates that spike just wants a mechanic that works He doesn't want to screw around with, you know, unexpected failures. So right, but anyways, he wants he wants the automatic things Yeah, yeah, but rolling dice to roll dice To see if you get anything This is bothersome and I think this even will get to the point where a lot of timmies will be like, okay How much of this do I have to do? Right And I picked sort of three examples here. Two of these are from the uh, Sob like ravelords spell lists one of these is from sons of badmats. So like hurled body You pick an enemy model within three inches and you roll a die You get a little modifier to it if you double their wounds Then you slay that model then you roll another die And on a four up you can pick a unit within 12 and that unit suffers a number of mortal wounds equal to the wound's characteristic of that model Or maybe just I I mean, is that really rolling dice to roll dice though? Often yes, because you're you're killing like a one wound guy And so you're rolling for one mortal wound is usually what it boils down to You're rolling a four up to do one additional mortal wound Sure, sometimes it works out differently, but that's often how it works. I mean, I think the better example would be fire slayer hand That's a great example. No, I'm not against that at all. I love that example I would just I should have put a picture of a fire slayer hand axe up in that top right corner Yeah, like I think that that's probably the better example because it's you know It used to be like fives and fives, right at an eight inch range, but your entire army had it It's an entire army wide fives and fives Yep, um, which is Not generally not gonna do a whole lot. Yep Might get you out of sight now though. Sure. You see this a lot on spells uh, where um It'll be like Roll to cast the spell an already pretty hard thing to do Then roll over top of their bravery and then Okay And then and then and then Yeah, when do I get to actually have something happen? Right I would also agree with cruel boys dirty tricks often feel like this Right, many of the dirty tricks are like roll a bunch of dice to see or get your dirty tricks And then roll more dice to see what they do and it's like oh boy You know the fact that you can just roll your allegiance ability into doing nothing Is problematic and that's just it Why it's bad is when you have too much work for too little payoff like each time you bring in the rng The ability needs to get progressively powerful because it's introducing a new chance of failure that you don't control This is the point unlike the writer's ruin thing. It's a very strong ability or roar. It's a very strong ability Right. Yeah, so it's gated by its strength on the thing on the roll Fair Right. Yeah, but when you roll to roll to do a mortal wound It's like okay Did we need to go that far for it? You know, do we need that many rolls to make this happen? By the way, even some models attacks will often feel like this Yes If you have like a very bad melee unit that's just on like fours and fives with no rend and one damage It often just feels like rolling dice to roll dice and if they're throwing like 60 plus attacks Sure You just okay. I roll all these dice. Okay. I hit this many times. I roll this many dice Okay, I wound a few times you make your saves you make most your saves. I do one damage That was great. What a great use of my time, right? Like boy. Oh boy wonderful yay Right, like even unit attacks themselves can can can end up in this place Right Yeah And yeah, gen s says interestingly war song bomb gets around this by giving you enough dice on a successful spell cast to Generally even out bad rolls on the damage roll. Yeah, I agree. And that's just it if the if the if the effect is getting progressively powerful Right, if the payoff is worth going down the road, then you're happy to go down the road And and the war scroll example is exactly the same thing when I'm when I'm rolling on twos and twos and making that same number of Attacks with rend two damage to I'm happy to make all those attacks Right because I know people about to die things are going to happen through 30 to 40 damage. Yeah Yeah, the game state will change The where this feels bad and at the root of this issue Is how much time are you wasting? In rolling all these dice to just roll more dice to have little to no effect on the game state Yep Right That's what the root of this is it feels time wastey the game isn't respecting your time Okay Because it's making you go through a lot of drudgery to very little effect Right, uh, so that's that's why this is ultimately such a bad thing Um, you it just extends out the length of the play experience to add no value Uh, chay says it's a hat on a hat. Yeah 100 it often ends up feeling like that, right? Hat on a hat on a hat on a hat. Yes Yep And I agree onia said at least they got rid of a lot of re-rolls. Oh boy You write on that that previous scenario I talked about with war scrolls. It was even worse when it was like Here's a bunch of bad attacks that also re-roll ones. Oh god Yes, yes, but it at least made them Semi more reliable so that not re-roll all I'm saying just re-roll ones. Oh, that's fair. That's fair Yeah, like if you hit on fives with re-roll ones, you're like, okay, good now I get Picked through for these four re-roll. Okay one more You know like yeah, okay Um, the flip side of this is something we talked about when we were in the save stacking conversation, which is Uh saves being way too high, right? So you roll a bunch stuff and they just roll saves with re-rolling ones to save and blah blah blah and take no damage I throw a thousand damage at you and you literally take zero Yep, right re-roll. We'll say uh re-roll will save Yes Okay, where you only get wounded, you know one in every 36 times you get wounded and that's if you don't have a word save right Yep Okay Next up two week You're weak Uh So Why is it bad? This is just when the base math or the rules just make it not work When it's bad at any price right when and this can be Whole thing the whole war scroll it's often how this manifests But it can also be sub just individual rules of the war scroll Especially if it's an optional thing you can activate to where you would never take the thing you would never use the optional rule even if The larger thing is still worth taking you might never use this specific rule. It's different than corner case Right where it's just actually straight bad All right Corner case will sometimes do something Yeah, right This will basically always do nothing Right no where the rules are just so fundamentally weak Uh my examples here are the screaming bell and I have the peel of doom over here on the side Uh You know like I just I hate everything the bell itself is it the bell itself is such a wonderful double tap on this Because it itself is both this in that it doesn't do enough or anything And the peel of doom is a specific thing that they thought they were doing something with But whoever wrote this book does not understand the value of 1d6 versus 2d6 and a probability curve that is bell curved versus flat And why it really matters And everything on this list is basically bad Uh And so everything about the bell is terrible Cypher lords You look at them compared to the rest of like what's the rules on their scroll Compared to corvus cabal or the snake boys or the dark oath or or or It's just they nope too weak. You're never picking them Yep, yep Like just and just real quick the single rule example that I've got the doom wheel in here for is its movement rule Because it's so bad and so weak that it just always works against you Which is you double your move, but if you roll two ones they get to move your unit Something that is statistically extremely highly likely to happen So this is the old drunken stagger would have fallen under the same thing of the jumps, right? But that that went away good Like uh, there were a number of units in selenash that were in this space as well. Sure 100% yes, uh Cool said the ogre command to set the charge roll for the cats to a four And then haylo said or the ice brow hunter artifact Most of his abilities that run and throw but not shoot. Yes Like I really was I wanted to try to fit the ice brow hunter and the associated like hunter rules on this page as well Because he was very much in my mind like the new hunter guy that they were like this guy is the monster killer He stalks in the darkness Like the predator And I'm like Okay, sure Or he does Two damage Sure, but either way more damage against monster. Yeah, congratulations. Maybe maybe so I mean this one's just pretty obvious, right? You can't make them cheap enough without damaging the larger game Yep Yep What what else and what else what are other some other units to fall in here tom? Or let me put it this way tom. Why are tell me why cross booze fall into this? Um because you know, it's funny that you suggest that because um Trennelli Trennelli did pretty well with these at lvo um But I mean what I would say is that in general they have a couple things going against them one is their output isn't high enough Being only like fours and fours on like a a short enough range. I think it's 12 inch range um, it's just not like as a They're not able to project the power that you would need them to project And they're not inherently mobile enough that you have to like include other pieces to make them more mobile, right? Um, and so it's just a combination of a bunch of those different things mean meant that they're just Okay Yeah And I mean this is the problem with this is there's a threshold here There's overcosted Which is not the same thing Where the scroll could have a home and could have a role at a certain point value right Well, and I and honestly, I think crossboost probably could Although they still struggle to fulfill their role Even at lower points because because ultimately the question is can their scroll fulfill the role, right? If they can then it's a points issue. It's overcosted. Yep If inherently those those scrolls can't fulfill the role Because they're failing to do something essential to what that kind of unit's supposed to do That's when you run into this, Julie Yes, exactly. This is the anvil, but it's never tough enough. It's just not tough enough to actually take a punch This is the hammer that just can't actually kill anything, right where there's no points value They're going to become the right thing that doesn't damage the game because you make them so cheap That they become just infinitely spammable body clogged nonsense on the board. Yeah, all right That's the problem And, you know, so but this can exist both at a total war scroll where this is how it often manifests It's usually a sum total of something um but but the Uh, but often but this can manifest as individual rules as well Cygnus said would having another unit in the army that is vastly superior also be a cause of this Or does this only apply to rules in a vacuum? It's a good question My answer would be it does not by default make this happen so like You can have two different hammers in an army At two different points values and have them both be valuable Right, one is the more points efficient hammer, especially especially if like, let's say the Little one that the cheaper one wants to gang up in a big unit like has incentives to go either to go deep Go big or to be MSU'd Either could be whereas the more expensive one works well as an independent operator as a solo unit or something like that, right or The the more expensive one's the independent operator and the little one wants to partner with another You know, like I'll be part of a power pair. So yeah, you can still have that happen And it doesn't it's not like you automatically end up just because you have multiple hammers in a book No, you can design your way out of that situation right But it often ends up those two things often end up correlating Because they don't create that distinction necessary Right, they don't seem like they don't seem to recognize that these are both hammers We better make them very distinct hammers with with like that are appealing at their points value because of the Ancillary elements that they're going to fulfill their hammer slash this Or or hammer with this You know utility use or something whatever, right? so You can have multiple hammers and like that's inevitable some books just have too many units, right? And and it's fine. Yeah you know, um So you could you could you can easily see that like um, ogroid pherodons and Cas Knights can exist in the same book and you could still both of those could still be completely valid hammers in in s2d or or Perhaps the easier example would be chosen and Cas Knights exist in the same book right now And are both valid hammers that people take because they they have different completely different hammer slash functions And delivering delivery mechanisms and yeah all that yep So it's it's really not a matter. It's not automatic just based on like the role alone Okay Cool anything else we want to say on two week tom No, I think that that's pretty pretty accurate. Yep Um rambium says in my opinion iron jaws current book failed at this with pigs and brutes They are the same role with one having more speed It didn't fail at this on launch. They actually got it correct at launch because the brutes were the higher rend And were the more destructive, but the pigs were the faster ones Then they f a cued it and changed it and up to the pigs rend and invalidated brutes Well, but brutes still have a function in objective capping They do but the difference in points isn't enough to make it Vowel, that's the problem sure Right they were they they had it right and then they screwed it up Yeah, but I wouldn't say that that's an issue of two week I think that that's uh caught that's a point since overcosted Yeah, it's like You know, you're right there There the the rend problem creates a real challenge to getting the balance right now If we went if we rolled it back to the rend one on pigs where it should be where I've stated It should be since they made that f aq. I've said it was the wrong call Right if we just undid that f aq We could find the points value for both of them to have a very functional role But we're not going to so I guess Here we are Seven scrolls. It's not hard. Okay Over cooked This is just too strong. Why is it bad? It's just too strong This is the opposite side of the problem, right? You have to move the points up so much they will fall over the edge of value right Where like you the points cost you have to point these things at to make them balanced Just become so insane that you ride the knife's edge Where either you get the insane value out of the thing if this is a whole war scroll Or you just fold like a house of cards because somebody removes your piece and you lost too much of your army Right, that's the risk that happens here you know Yep Now there Go ahead. Go ahead and say man. Do I love me that's quicker though? Sure so Sentinels are probably the lower edge of this now. They're they've been mostly corrected They've been they've been toned back Yes, I think they're still a little overcooked for the most part. They're they're they're you know, they're I need to shrink them down smaller They've they've we've slowly corrected them really at sentinels in helon now that are the problem Like sentinels in general. No sentinels in helon double tapping. Yes Sentinels where they turn their bow sideways. Yeah. Yeah Oh, they're turning sideways. It's a kill shot. It's a kill shot Yes, correct. Um So that's actually why they're still here because they still have that build that is obviously busted sideways. Okay Um, squeak herd. It's I mean, it just it is what it is right now It's one of the most absolutely brutally efficient units in the game. It's insane if people haven't played It's easy to read it and go it's not that much of a problem until you've played against a 36 pack Squeaker and watched it rip across the table in one turn hit your unit kill your unit Lose a few things then kill everything else that like behind that unit And then get charged and then kill another unit and then come back at half strength And and you're like what just happened What happened how much did how much did you pay for that unit? Wait, what? right Uh, yeah for for basically no points Um So, you know, there you go 300 or so points. Sure It's fine. It's perfectly fine And then four plus rally Uh, I could probably stop there Okay, that's already overcooked like I want to Look, I want to strike four plus rally from the game. It should just be gone Sound off in the comments if tomorrow They just eliminated four plus rally if all four plus rally just changed to five plus Is that good or bad? Just say good or bad in the comments. That's what I want to know everybody Sound like old school four plus water Just blanket. I just like it just tomorrow All things that say four plus rally now say five plus rally Yeah, okay. Is that good or bad? Yeah. Yeah We're gonna make this a nuance less conversation. Okay, maybe I don't know like I understand like I think in some limited environment Four plus rally can be fine Uh It's one of those things where I'm so willing I'm I'm it's a this isn't a baby with the bathwater situation In my in in my estimation. Yes, we would lose a little but we would lose so little I don't care It's my it's my bottom. You're just just chucking that baby out. Got it. Yeah, correct. It's like it's just worth it in this case Yeah, yes without compensation nothing else changes like that's it like sorry if you had a rule that said that like yeah, okay Like your life goes on. I don't know deal with it Lots of people change things Lots of people get or get things that change in their rules all the time Yeah um, so, you know like That's that's what would happen. But but here's the problem. We're not even just talking about four plus rally What we're what we're often talking about is four plus rally Times x Right where it's happening four plus rally on both snakes or it's four plus rally army wide Or it's four plus rally for all units within x Yep, yep, exactly Or or it's four plus rally or multiple four plus rallies per turn Yeah, yes multi exactly you can four up rally three times a turn you can four up rally everybody period all the time Right, like just good. God almighty You know, we've just stuffed way too much of this crap in the game And I I do not for the life of me Know why we've had we felt the need to suddenly have this much Resurrecting units now. I understand what we're doing is blah blah blah some of the troops aren't actually dead You're rallying them to come back to the fight. Yada. Yada. Yada. I don't have a verisimilitude problem with this Okay And I mean I kind of do Right like think about this you have a 100 goblet or No, let's do yeah, let's do a unit of no you have 120 goblins on the table two packs of 60. Sure. Okay Well, I was gonna say I'm sure you have 120 goblins on the table And you kill 60 of them Like 30 out of each pack sure Who they're now no longer in combat with you for sure because they would have removed the casualties from being in combat with Yeah, so in what world do you suddenly like Get 15 back per unit and then right in the 30 just stand back up Right. Sure. Sure. It's a lot of goblins It's a lot of goblins that is some like the necromancers are over here like what foul sorcery is this Yes, sure. It's uh, it's the diablo two like shaman guy like All the goblins are popping back up. Yeah. Yeah. Yes um So, you know I I I just Uh I just don't know what to do with this as long as it's in the game I think it's a massive problem And I think it's even more of a mass one of my biggest biggest biggest biggest challenges with this is I think It's incredibly punishing in an inverse way to the skill curve of the game What I mean by that is higher skilled players Are generally less bothered by this rule because they will be very particular about how they apply their force They're better at doing the math. They know the enemy stats very well. So they're very good at calc-ing out Exactly when they can apply pressure to remove a unit completely and eliminate this this Capability or to getting the right charges off to make it so they can't remove casualties and pull people out of combat Right or or or or because there are skill plays around this, but they're all fairly complicated skill plays Right. Yep. Yep Where so like if you looked at like here's the general skill curve of the game How much just four or whatever, you know, how much does four plus rally matter would be the direct inverse of that, right? Where at the the the point of low skill, whatever something like that, whatever it means um At the point of lowest skill It's going to hurt the hardest because these are the people who don't know every enemy unit off the top of their head And how tough they are and how much and can't just like on the fly do the math of knowing exactly how much damage Their their unit will do on average to that unit Right And so it's It just instantly Turns against them because they just fight and fight and fight and kill nothing and can't understand why Right, right, right It's overwhelmingly punishing Yeah, so it it it's an individual overcooked rule so you can have overcooked Individual rules or overcooked units and when they get together Then you got a real good time Uh, I I agree see like cw. I know you and I have different opinions on the skeletons Uh, but on this I completely agree with you He said compare four plus rally with skeletons endless legion and it's just exactly that's my point the necromancers are over there like What is this? What is happening? Right. Yeah, so it's just yeah, it's just too much Uh, you know even five plus I would want to see used pretty sparingly But I guess we've just decided in this edition that we're just going to hand this crap out like candy for no reason Yeah, as opposed to in very specific situations where it makes sense for that particular unit Right Yeah So the fact that basically everybody that responded said good Tells me what I want to know like I'm pretty sure if I surveyed on this We I would it would just be the most overwhelming response In the world on the rally thing Uh, yes, am I at the necromancer am I a joke to you? Uh, yeah, absolutely Uh, okay cool anything else on overcooked any other overcooked things you want to you want to mention there tom I think we've we've been a lot better a lot of this has been corrected pretty quickly. I'll say Right, like it's clear that this kind of overcooked stuff is getting a lot more attention and getting corrected Which is a good thing Right. Yeah. Yeah So, um, but there's still a couple out there. There's still a couple out there Um, I am happy though that these are often being beat down that four plus rally remains a remains a A real proud nail. I want to I want to see just beaten into the ground and punished So there you go Um, yeah, I I think hey was probably right He said I think they added and pushed rally because people hated shooting so much and they wanted to lessen the effect I I don't disagree. I just think that's a terrible way to answer it as opposed to just fix the shooting Well, that is that is the most like Simpsons How will we solve this problem? We'll we'll bring this in which will bring which will eat this which will eat this which will eat this Then we'll bring in the tigers How do we get rid of the tigers where the winter will kill them off, right? Like it is that that is that chain of thought just in Yeah Uh an exact example Uh, so yeah, there you go Okay, cool last one two complicated Tom as my example here. I have picked the eight-fold doom signal. I love it. I love one of my favorite dumb endless spells This thing it's such a mess Mm-hmm Why don't you ask me go without looking at it? Uh, it gives bonus attacks if things die near it through rolling some dice That's that is as I know most war scrolls. That is as close as I get with them Just off the top of my head because I know That it's some amalgamation of dice rolling and bonus attacks and weird phasing Like phases of things a bonus unless I got updated yeah Like you're you're right conceptually, but the execution Right exactly. I've I could never trot this out just off the hip Absolutely. Okay. I'm just gonna read this straight because it will prove everything just by literally reading this thing Sure. Okay. Here we go I want to and I want to read this with commentary, but I'm gonna read it straight through Know that I'm suppressing my commentary Keep track of the number of models that are slain within 12 inches of this endless spell each turn At the end of each turn Roll a dice for each model that was slain within 12 inches of this endless spell during that turn For each three plus the player whose turn is taking place Must pick one slaves to darkness unit Holy within 18 of this endless spell Add one to the attacks characteristic of that unit's melee weapons excluding those of its mounts Of course Until that players next hero phase Okay A unit cannot benefit from this ability more than once per turn all right By the way, my fingers what they were counting are different game elements. I have to track and pay attention to here I got to nine correct That is too many That is like my favorite is in the second to last sentence the that player Right Okay, which player is that player's turn Until that player's next hero phase The player who's who's no is it that is it the player who slaves the darkness unit you picked Or is it the player whose turn it is who rolled the dice and picked the uh Which that player is it? It's that player. That's the one you said sorry Yeah, but but my point is that I just asked you and you answered wrong wrong and I use this endless spell That's my point. Yep. Yep. Because I because yeah It is so like the This thing. Oh my god, this thing I I just I don't even know how to respond Because I've got it like let's now break it down I have to count the number of bottles that die Within 12 of this thing. Okay, so I have to have a constantly throughout the turn I'm doing this running Abacus, right totally and you're actually having to like probably measure to see which models count 100% I got to get out the tape measure and figure out who's within when they die, right? And where I pulled casualties from yeah, and so on and so forth. Okay, because that all matters Then at the end of the turn, I'm going to look at that total Look at my add that I'm keeping and I'm going to roll that many dice Then I'm going to pick out every three plus now if it's my turn Then I'm going to say okay for every three plus now I got to figure out I got to get out my tape measure again and figure out what units are wholly within 18 Of the thing right Yeah, and I've got and then I can assign one of those units to get plus one attack Per roll over three out. Okay, and that's going to happen until my next hero phase So if I'm on the double it goes away immediately and does nothing we can just skip this whole process literally does nothing Because I'm that player who to sign right and it's now my next hero phase Yes, it does nothing on the double that is correct If it's the enemy that goes next all my units will benefit in their turn, but not the mounts But I have to remember that after remember all these plus one attacks, but not the mounts Okay, if it's the enemy's turn Then they have to pick my units and they'll pick the worst ones first of course in order But they'll they had they must assign each die. So you got to work their way up If they're on the double it does nothing Correct, okay But if it flips to my turn then I get the bonus until they go again if it flips to my turn and I get the double So if it assigns it in their face, you could get two turns worth I could well not only could I get two turns with I could actually benefit twice Because the exception at the end is a unit cannot benefit from this ability more than once per turn per turn, right That's what I'm saying like you could actually double stack that plus one attack Correct one once and only once right Well, no, but then it wouldn't hold on I'm wrong Spell it wouldn't no it like because at the end of my phase. So okay, they assigned it in their turn Oh, you're right. You're right. It goes to mine I would assign it then it would I would double so this one would would go away But the original one from their turn would stay because it hasn't been their hero phase again. Oh, yeah Yep so So the older buff sticks the newer one does Goes away if I'm on the job And you have to keep track of which units are buffed During which turns in correct Correct. Yes, because in my turn somebody like moved and so different units could have been receiving that buff Okay After all of this I should not need to explain why this is bad All right Like this is very rules like this are very challenging for I wrote here new and casual players and clearly veterans alike Like just everybody this has got to be one of the worst examples of this thing This is such a word salad This thing is so nonsensical All right, it's it's such a mess And it's especially troubling when the payoff is also weak So when things are just a partial plus one attacks, yes, like your horses don't get it correct To units that my enemy is often going to choose, right? If Yes Okay Uh It's It's just amazing Now this is certainly not the only Example of this there's there's there are other rules in this game that are too complicated But boy This would be the dictionary example or whatever of this thing. Yes. This is the our example Yes It absolutely is I cannot think of anything worse than this so challenge To all of you out there in the comments in watching live in the comments afterward If you can find something more complicated than this batch of word salad nonsense Right Then I would love to see it. Oh nea epidemias is a good example Of one that is way too complicated for nonsense But this one's true. I'm still putting this guy over epidemias, but he's he's very close. He's a close contender If this all goes off as planned some units Get partial plus one to attack You know what they could have done Just eight full doom sigil you cast it. It's more expensive your units Holy within 12 inches or 18 inches of this thing get plus one to attack 90 points done One sentence And it doesn't move Yeah, and you don't have to spend any of that time measuring or tracking or rolling that Like we got to measure once to know where it is, but that's it. Like that's the bubble right fine like just Just that could have been what it was Why isn't it just that? That That feels like a perfectly fine on the spell right like when you would cast Yeah, you cast it and you're like I get plus one attack. Yay Right like eight full doom sigil Casting value five range of six inches by the way. It's a very short range spell Maybe maybe that's why it's not just doom sigil but eight full because there's eight things you're tracking Right And It's like you set it up within six inches So your caster's got to be out there if you want it in an advantageous spot So he's got to risk it for the biscuit call it eight points 90 points something like that units Holy within 12 to get plus one to attack That's it Designed Hoy Huh, yeah, I'm I'm exhausted just thinking about this thing So uh Doe screen does does games workshop do design and development style like mtg or just design? That's a great question for a very long time They only did design and didn't do I didn't have formal development. They have recently to my understanding I mean I don't work there, but to my understanding they have recently added Uh a formal developer to the team whose job it is is to do that now I'm not sure if that person is 100 dedicated to that role or if they do other things. I don't I don't know Um, but they certainly should they also don't have the internal testing iterations at magic Sure, they don't have like future leagues and all of that like, you know, it's like I mean magic at this point is a Has very much focused on the process of developing a well-oiled machine, right and they still scrub sometimes Um, but you know, um You know, you're never going to drive all of the flaws out of the system that you're trying to minimize risk, right? Um, you know, effectively you want to get drive that defect number down as low as possible and drive down the severity of the effects that do escape so Uh At any rate, there you go. That's our worst rules. Hey, what are your favorite worst rules that we missed? Drop them in the comments below. I want to know Uh tom Thank you, buddy. This is a lot of fun. This is always good. You're welcome always I wanted to end on this one because like what a what a what an ending end on the best an eight-fold doom single is Singularly terrible. It's so wonderful Um, I'm almost glad it exists because it's so silly. I might say it's terrible eight times over It is it is eightfold terrible. Uh, but for all of you out there. Hey, thank you so much for watching We'll see you at adept con next week. Don't forget Uh, we'll be I don't know exactly when the show will be live Um, because it'll be whenever after their reveal show, which is at eight p.m Central time is their reveal show. So figure maybe like 10 central 11 eastern or 9 30 central 11 eastern like it'll depend on how long that show goes But it'll be it'll be it will do a reveal show after the gw reveal show reveal review reaction show Um, we'll rope tyler into that. I'm gonna see if I can rope rope uncle Adam into that. So there you go Uh, it should be a fun time. Uh hit like if you like it Uh, subscribe if you haven't already I should say those things earlier in the show. I'm very bad at calls to action But hey make up for it now. There's so many of you watching and nobody hit like hit like People are already leaving don't leave hit like And uh, it's so easy and and all that kind of stuff. Uh, but at any rate if you want to support the channel You can do so. Uh, there is a patreon down below focused on hobby and review and feedback and taking Your next step on your hobby journey, uh with golden demon coming up the hobby journey is fresh in my mind I know that for sure. Uh, but thank you so much for watching. Uh, we really really appreciate it and as always We'll see you next wednesday