 Now, when you said if I'm a very good spotter of invention, through my review process, I can get rewarded quite well. And I understand the logic, I understand why. But then I, as a reviewer, an expert reviewer, I developed a strategy where I can put my stake, for instance, on everything. Yeah, a little bit on everything, because the reward of a small thing could be just as much as one. But I can put a hundred reviews and say, oh, this invention takes one of them. So, actually, it's not possible in the system, so you cannot put everything, like review everything. And there is even a system which kind of delays your next review to your potential number review you can produce, because in one way, for example. But also, you have potential risk if you review, like, as a good research, something which will be further recognized as a complete, like, nonsense. You have potential risk. You lose reputation. You kind of lose. If you take, I don't know, the last step, the last step is when you mistake your reputation or something on a given proposal, and if you will get the proposal passed, you win. But if you propose it, you have to propose it. Yeah, it's not as simple as, just, but it's all about the incentive model. So, if you get the potential to achieve the system, there should be programs that model to prevent it. Yeah, I mean, what we currently have is also similar to the Shokun system. So, for example, in my home university, there was a Berlin token, which counts, like, how many of your third party parties, how many teaching activities you do. And this was introduced about 15 years ago, and people don't really like this token system. They say, okay, yeah, in some cases it's okay, but on the other hand, they prefer, like, even this revolution, so everything is spread across the heads. That's fine. So, I'm not really sure if this measurement and token system is really something which gets better through the blockchain or is that where I'm not really following where this distributed blockchain thing makes this or regates this token system better. So, let's start from your first question about is it even distribution and is it better? It feels like a community where everyone deserves some reward. Maybe even distribution is okay, but if you have, like, a global system where distribution can be done from any part of the world, you can use limited resources to achieve efficient utilization of these resources. And if you distribute it evenly, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's more efficient. It's actually obvious that it's not efficient. Not most efficient. But how this internal currency distributive distribution is just, like, crazy thinking which, like, in the interest to be proportionate to your contribution. But as a grant giver, you actually can really, you can use the same model and distribute some funds in the same way by allocating a grant to a discipline, like $10 million to a discipline which will be distributed the same way as a mission. But you also can create a custom smart contract which will be, for example, using only just the threshold. If you want to, if you pass this threshold, you will receive even distribution of funds, but you still need to pass the threshold to filter back wall to receive action. And the bigger threshold you put, like, the bigger, like, requirement you put on the research project. David? Sorry, I didn't mean that. Matt. Moritz. Moritz, you seem to have quite a lot of experience with, like, using tokens and currencies over history and how human beings use them in organizational structures. So for me, your question was the theory of how these tokens are distributed and the mass and the gaming of the pack is all well and good. But in practice, when people work in an institution, even if it's broken into many departments, we've tried it before and people just don't really want to use it. That is true. So, like, if you look at the history of tokens and currencies in societies and in practice, and community currencies are not happy, there are very specific places that it works and there's ways that people use these tokens. And it doesn't mean that the underlying mass and the critiquing of this is not valuable. It just means that human beings don't react directly and frankly, honestly, to the point of the system. So, for instance, if you're in a building, people won't tend to use the tokens. I mean, in a gathering like this or in a departmental meeting or moving around people will simply not use these tokens. On the other hand, when they're thinking about their career and moving from institution to institution, or when you need to make remote collaborations with people that you're not having day-to-day contact with, that's where these economic systems work. So it's like if you're using a community currency, you don't use it with your friends and family, but when you go to a new cafe or a new part of town or particularly when you travel somewhere else and you want to interact and get introduced to people, you use them. So the crypto economics produces a background mathematical layer which institutions and the community of scientists can use to start to rationally build the incentives they want. So it is not like a magic thing that you actually use here and now with the people you're cooperating with and there's a whole culture you need to adopt around it. Thank you, David. So, and also I wanted to add that is this token system, what was the value of this token system you were using within the department? So every year you have to report where you filled in what were your achievements and I wasn't led to this conference. I've written this drawing and I've teached many students and many master students. Was it fake? It was designed over many years by a democratic commission and it was more of that for some people. I mean, then people started to gain the system and then they started to adopt it and then they started getting it and then everybody was unhappy because, I mean, this had side effects for some of the students. The students, they had, it became more complicated for them to understand what marks they would get because different marketing systems get more of that. So they, the course, the course content was the same but the grading system was more complicated because then the professors got more rewarded for the course and then they changed it back because of the achievement. So this is the experience I personally had with this kind of talk. I think with what blockchain also gives to the token system that it can be fully transparent. You can fully dig how it was distributed. Yeah, what was transparent? It was transparent but you still have some of the colleagues It could be transparent on some scale. For example, we here can get transparent of the system until we have the ability to out-dead everyone else here. But if there's like 100,000 researchers within the system, it's really hard for you to really trust. You cannot out-dead everything, not right now. But if you have the guarantee that the magical engine which runs on this is the decentralized system which runs on every node and produces index where it's the logic you see and you can out-dead and you can change, as you said, if it becomes available and I'm sure there will be some restrictions, we cannot deliver a perfect system from day one but we deliver it to be because of consent so it can be changed on the scientific community. So we call it interested in the efficient way of the scientific knowledge creation. Two questions. I mean, one common person that I think we know of of such a system that was working is that, you know, you could go and step beyond the institution that is just a few dozen or hundred people but you can scale it and by scaling it also make it inclusive to other people but the current we are not necessarily taking thousands of processes but it could be anywhere in the world and then receive fundamental reputation from the decentralized system that's really helpful to people because I think that one of the ideas is here kind of to get rid of the third party university. So if you just are a human being and you want to contribute to science and it doesn't matter to say we can only do this because we are everyone. The other thing is about the, how is the scientific community going to suggest change when they realize it as a problem? So what will the voting strategy are? Yeah, so there are some garments basically any butchering garments are divided into two parts. On-chain garments and on-chain garments. It's when you can directly vote for example if you can directly adjust emissions in the system if you can directly create or write on the system you basically want some tokens within the system without like involvement in any external hard forks you can change some parameters so it's on-chain garments. And on-chain garments is if you have some stakeholders like entrepreneurs who can who is affected by regulated by scientific community and you need to change the system in such a way which you cannot change it just by sending a transaction to the system you need to really change the protocol. And that means that plot producers finally eventually plot producers make a decision to update the protocol. And when you need to it basically changes to the protocol and it's in that it should be should be run on all plot producers' knowledge. Yeah, but it has to stress what's happening in a way that democracy is not necessarily the most ideal form. Right. Because you have a tyranny of the majority unless you are governing as well and maybe five percent of the population of researchers have a document. So that's the thing I'm not sure that it's being really worked out. Yeah, so because it's not like equal for every researcher. It's also the researcher. It also depends on the totals of some process of it. So it means the more significant contribution you've done the more weight you have in decision making because you you have already put a lot of stake to this system because you have made contribution you have conduced the system and you deserve to be heard more right? This reminds me of the pirate party of liberal democracy. Yeah, so actually liberal democracy what would it be? We'll work on quite a few different but I'm really interested in the off-chain governance of the protocols and how that feeds into the specification and you can move from meetings and legal constitution to the design of the protocols according to our legal process. Yeah, and liberal democracy is actually really efficient though sometimes we want to see democracy to do off-chain governance if it has some boundary you can put it through. Standard liberal democracy What do you think about the liberal democracy political idea from what I know about the German pirate party to give up on it very quickly as they did to you? As a point you say it's very good to hypothesize on the global community and how it's global but unfortunately the reality is that we all operate within certain jurisdictions and those jurisdictions have different laws of access to funding many of us here like all of them are from Germany, Switzerland the same God called those if we were to cover a community with researchers or university administration fund I really don't see any kind of interest like with it from funders or from administration to change to adapt this kind of evolutionary technology which will I don't know it sounds like money sampler have to come into the system from somewhere 80% of scientific research is funded by public money and what we have here is a technology which is well done by the ESO so for somebody to invest something to put through the system and to make sure whether it will exist in five years time this kind of stretching from imagination yes okay answering your questions you put this a little a little bit but in terms of funders they actually really interested to experiment with new ways of distributing funds because they want to achieve actually funders actually especially public money so public money is an investment into future into input with what funding agents have been spoken of we have been spoken of funding agencies but we are now mostly focusing on private funders and they are interested in minimizing their operational costs because now to distribute grants it really requires like first of all a long time, a long process and second it's really expensive we are wasting a lot of money on operational costs on these human interactions on receiving review and so on so if there is a way to increase efficiency of the system they definitely want to try so some of them already agree to try but when it's private funders with specific interest in specific discipline because it's like in their interest they receive projects within this discipline and in this small grant it's like the most inefficient thing because you need to allocate small grant in intervals like committee reviewing a ball of applications and you need to pay all them you need to pay all this like it's actually cost transaction cost of investment can be cost of distribution and there is a way to minimize the suppression cost by distributing these grants like semi-automatically through smart contracts and it's going to be like experiment nobody is going to put like all their system from day one I think but if experiment will show some results and positive reaction I think it's just a matter of time looking about G5 days that's one thing that's one thing another thing like you were talking about showing formulas and I really doubt that somebody besides understands how they work and what God can't figure out how they work but to explain in the way God was able to explain yesterday how basic blockchain and cryptography is kind of difficult to understand it's the same the same mistake as allowing British people to vote on Brexit I don't understand how just 99% it's too complex the same with like we can vote on Einstein algebra right now correct or not but this is a good point I mean we have children working on Ethereum contracts so working with Minecraft we have deliberations about the principles that they want the algorithms to do you then come back and show the results and you model it and then they say no it's not really what we wanted to do it's a bit like at a road somewhere in the car they might know how the engine works and so forth is transparent and during control of the process it's entirely possible to govern complex systems with the deliberate approach I think there is proof it's always how to communicate some you don't have expertise in like how to prove that these things like really trust forcing but it's also like because we were like everything there is because of some assumptions we're taking assumptions that for example the number of assumptions of distribution funds within one discipline like tokens was the most disciplined we should then be adjusted to review in research group we took assumptions that the more review happens within a discipline the more money should be going to review to incentivize more review and we can say this is like what was our original assumptions we want to achieve quality within a discipline that's why when proportion is more than within a whole system like not enough review within a discipline a system will be automatically more funds to review and here is this part within a formula which is responsible for doing this so this is how we can communicate also this message but definitely the best way is to prove it with some results that works efficiently and you as David said you have a transparent way communicating with your mechanics how an engine works and have wall power to decide how you use this mechanic or engine if you want I would like to say something the tools you have shown us yesterday were I think can be used very well they can be very powerful I would like to say a word about not to your business also but as a general for blockchain for science it all depends how it is used those tools are wonderful tools and will also make a whole difference because this published or perished mindset established and is really killing the sound strike counter and if you move away and then tokenize or perish if you move into that it could be more democratic more trustable more transparent tokens but still if we do science for tokens if we move in there we should not lose touch of this reality that we do science for ourselves for the planet, for humanity whatever we are doing it for and that the tools are not becoming the end goal so it's a general statement I think we talk blockchain people have to be aware of it because the tool is very cool let me get most of it so tools is just a way to change the sense of model because current sense of model there is false incentive within the system and this what needs to be published in multiple other fable and so on is just because of false incentive and blockchain is just a tool to create human sense of model it's really flexible it could be global scale from day one and it's easier to experiment it's just transparent it doesn't mean that some experiment will also have false incentive within it so what we are actually trying to do so we are trying to set the proper incentive and avoid some mistakes done by previous model there is your question is probably the most important question when you when you are tokenising things you lose a huge amount of rational discursive value all sorts of cultural things go out of window people start to behave in quite frankly a calling way as general it nearly put me off my lifetimes work when I started to look at how people were fighting over voting systems and weren't using voting in our organisations or were fighting over different economic models and the behaviour of England groups trying to collaborate was important there are the foundations of the deep incentives in our society democracy but we need to combine that with the social structure and one brilliant thing that is opened up by using blockchain is not the tokenisation that is just the temporary life cycle that's happened because people made money and because of the nature of the technology and that's not happening but with that technology you can build safe spaces you can finance them in the long term a great thing about this is that you can tie incentives from basic research all the way for 25-50 years in the future in other words you can redesign the institutions to capture precisely the knowledge you are talking about it just so happens that 90% of people in blockchains don't get that of course they are concentrating on the game theoretical algorithms concentrating on the general things you can do with smart contracts and so forth and they are not very socially addict and they come from a point of view where they destruct institutions and they want to kind of transform them and disintermediate them it's really when you combine what you can do with human beings gatherings, conversations, institutions and this technology that you are able to design the systems that we want inside this is actually also what I wanted to say because for example in current systems there is kind of an incentive model ignoring basic research there's tribes, humans, like horses you have to do faster results which can be applied faster because then it's easier to get funding because someone can utilize these results and within a blockchain it's also possible to do this complex incentive model without intermediary because intermediary blockchain which will be executed automatically and this also goes to our solution for references income distribution so it's like the incentive model to promote basic research if you do research which cannot be monetized like right now maybe 10 years but because it was referenced a lot and it usually basic research reduces more than applies you will be receiving a part of a part of every research who is referencing your basic research and you don't need anymore like worry about how to how to get funding on a you need to don't need to worry about why it makes a decision so either to do what you want to do basic research or do what you can get funding and if I had a really big way of gaming I would need to say you kind of associate your work with some big and that's initially an advantage to say I would reduce that but somehow you make sure that you're getting associated with it and secondly telling your friends to root you well so that you're so you would that would kind of leech out actually funds right could be a risk if you're talking about the AP right so there is for all this kind of gaming there should be from what you talk right now we have some solutions but there are some really much more other potential gaming but yeah about physical review and each other there is just preventing how to prevent collusion with the system and it could be determined you can we can determine it automatically with an algorithm by just calculation percentage ratio of how often you review the same group in the system comparing to average yeah and like the problem with this approach in some really narrow disciplines it could be like just the thing that there is not many researchers no many experts that's why it could be much more complex in things like introduced prediction markets or assessed long-term results and put negative feedback in the overall system as many things that you can do when you need compliance designing human structures yeah and long-term negative feedback is actually one of our approach for if you were just in general yeah yeah there is a correlation in the way right I think I should be finishing right now yeah if you have like few let's do like one more question or two and I will run to catch my I applied okay I'm still unclear how we secure the legend how we secure the legend so that's the basis of all this secondary incentive there but I'm optimistic that all that aggregates to secure it but still a bit you're aware of how he works and how basic features for example and there is actually block producers are those who secure the legend so their responsibility they earn a reward for that and but is there also like a runner it's an additional block producer who is producing a block with a more like proof of stake model if you are not in top 20 the additional runner will be selected from all others also proportionate to their walls so this means that like multiple nodes are running in system and if there is some like malicious nodes and in the system if even there is a collision between all delicate there is still one can be like it will just delay for the production process but the main thing that in general in distributed system design the more decentralized system is the less throughput of the whole system so it it's seen in Ethereum in Bitcoin that it's really decentralized system and in other reasons it's not like deterministic when block will come so you don't know where to expect it and when to expect it so it's also a decision to achieve efficiency so with this model we have like 10,000 transactions per block so it's like and you were using yesterday it feels like general websites you don't have like lights and so on it's just because it's really fast produced block but everything you were doing yesterday it was in recent transactions which is in blockchain and which is in this secure pleasure okay so one more question or I think let's see for now so I will then be secure in terms of do you have a good the rest of the presentations that I'm sure Paul would like to do some so okay so I will just want to ask are there any time constraints I think we are very well in time so how are you is it okay for you we have one talk with you still and that's the question schedule okay yeah sure maybe we do a break between that we should do a break how are you doing in terms of great anyone wants to copy before you leave for the break I just want to introduce one more participant it's starting us today and so the idea is we don't necessarily only have to tweet about what we're doing we don't have like experts on that I'm not a tweeting expert these are journalists with a focus on science great photographer here today and that's following up I would like to ask some of you some questions interesting in the topic big article about thanks a lot I grab a copy it's taken at half so oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah oh thank you thank you thank you okay there's going to be two questions two members and we're going to start on projects and you'll write these notes as I mentioned that's going to be a side change from the second one and then you can talk about your experience if you're still there so maybe you can insist you know give me the answer we know a little bit that they actually got about these things so you don't have to see anything like that on the way is this all of them as soon as it's secure, right? or maybe it was fine I think when you secure a new one it has a triple work to build up that's beyond compute capacity yeah how are you today? how are you? tomorrow it's a fair question actually yeah yeah so what we can do is bring it to yourself I think everybody should ask themselves like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah like yeah I know Thank you you can talk in person if you are now I'm not the only one who's been doing this for a long time. I mean, it's really a good thing that I've done a lot. I always, in front of you, like, really, you combine this, you know? I mean, it's a good thing. Well, yeah. I mean, it's not even that many. It's like, the... What do I think it's always good? It's like, you're us having the best of us. You know the awkward things. Nah, yeah, we're good. I don't know where the talk is. You see me through the view. I'm not the only one who's been doing this for a long time. It's been a long time, I'm not the only one who's been doing this. I'm not there or should have been there. I'm not there or should have been there. I'm not there or should have been there. whether they have done what they want to do, like outside of religion. If you find the aim is at some point to live, and then you have to do things like that, I would ignore it, right? Because the next example of data to somebody who can explain it, via blockchain and things, right? If you use the smart solution, you can only do certain things with the way to the back of the brain. You can only finish learning faster. This is your idea, right? Thank you very much for that. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So, and then there was obviously a lot of gene there. You were saying, like, there was an age that was supposed to be working there, and then it all went on for a year, and you were like, whatever, and then you were like, all of a sudden there was a lot of gene. Now, all of a sudden he is on the curriculum, and you're watching right now. All of a sudden there's a lot of gene. You're actually in the right, just in case. So, that's why you're making it more interesting. So, it's like, did you write that down? Yeah, exactly. So, you guys seem like you're just going to have to name that on the ground, and you're going to be good names. I was like, I'm just going to write it down. That's the TARDIS grant. You're obviously changing your answer, right? That's the TARDIS grant. You're not even going to be able to read it. You're going to have to write it for you, but then he also needs to extend it for all of us. That's the TARDIS grant, right? Yeah, that's the TARDIS grant. You know, it sells, but it's sold out. So, that's the TARDIS grant. They always say, yeah, even though you're the tool, you're the most important part. So, what do you mean by that? I'm an engineer. I'm an engineer. That's a perfect timing. I wonder why I'm thinking that. What's the TARDIS grant? It's a really powerful grant. It's a large grant. Yes, it can be based on other stuff. No. I was thinking, sorry. I can claim TARDIS grant, but it could potentially excise or anything. Yeah. You're not going to have to much of that. It's just like that. That might work. I don't know how to do it. That's the kind of user stuff. There's no way you're taking it, because it's really efficient. But, the management was amazing. It was like the management was great. This is everything. The management is all over every house. Everything is amazing, and I always make my own decisions. I don't want to live in a small house. I don't want the door to open. I don't want the street and the street and the gate. We're gonna get the paper by the time we get it. At least in the United States, there's the rule that if you have to do that, you have to do it. That's the question. Well, we need to do that. Yeah. Let's do that. Do you know how to do it? I could alternate. There's a rule for that. So what are you going to do? I'm just going to go. I'm just going to go. I'm just going to go. I'm just going to go. I'm just going to go. I'm just going to go. That's my base. I should put up with this tomorrow's travel. I think you're thinking about doing that kind of thing. I think you're right. I'm just interested in that. It is a nice picture. Have you broken yourself? I wish. You should say yes. It's from the 80s or 90s or something like that. Have you ever used a cover? Never. The main message would be about that. I'm just interested in that. So my daily job is to post up at ET Action in Syria. And it's basically related to structural mechanics on winter times and statistical stuff. So this is what you can consider as a hobby. It's a hard time work if you wish. That doesn't pay any money. But it's just a big experiment, a quality experiment that's happening in here. And track that flows is something that some of you have seen some of this work before, a few months ago in Syria. I will repeat some of the... I will give a quick introduction about the concept and then I will give a live demo if that's okay or partial live demo or semi demo somewhere in between. The idea of track that flows is to have a collaboration of collaborators to validate scientific claims. And by scientific claims it means scientific claims they made in social networks, made in publication, real proper scientific publications or made in newspapers or on TV. Because you see those everywhere. So, very, very simply, whenever you see a claim made on a newspaper for instance, you can take that claim, you can post it on track that flows and you get the community of people interested in this claim to validate the claim. And by validating the claim they can support the claim or refute the claim. And the idea of supporting a claim or refuting a claim is not done simply by giving opinions or arguments is by giving hardcore evidence. And by hardcore evidence I mean code, experiments, data, experimental setup, mathematical solutions and so forth. Because you can go on forums or fora where you can debate things and give opinions on Reddit, etc. These are still opinions, and opinions can differ and change over time. But when you have something that is a few that were supported by hardcore evidence that is far more solid as such. Now I mentioned the term claims, what's a scientific claim? So I will give you a few examples of scientific claims from different sources. So the first source is a startup which can also be a patent related type of a claim. And this claim says, one city tree has the air cleaning power of 275 urban trees. So this city tree is a wall, it's a moss wall, it's about 6 square meters that you can put it in a city center or in a square. And it has the performance of 275 urban trees. So when you read this in a patent or if you're an investor and you see something like that, or you're a city planner and you see something like that, in my city or in my city or wherever. But then there's a lot of issues with this claim. What's the truth? Is it 275 trees or is it 200 or 300? At what distance from this wall? At what height, what kind of emissions or what kind of cleaning is it doing? When will it die? And some of the statement made here is patent deduction. So there are patents pending for this claim. It is that if we as a community see something like this, how can we find the truth out of it? Has anybody done experiments on these moss and anybody checked the efficiency of the system or not? Another claim, and that's from the field of science publications or scientific work. And this is very related to machine learning, it's very related to statistical methods. It says, Beijing modern combination outperforms bagging, boosting and Beijing modern averaging over a wide variety of cases. Of course when you read the paper you can see that these cases are presented. But why could we use these methodologies on a different set of data and come up with a different conclusion? So indeed this is a correct conclusion for the given cases, but what about the other point of use that can support this claim or refuse this claim under different conditions? The last one is maybe related to your newspaper type of work where it comes from ABC in Australia and it says the lives of tens of thousands of premature babies could be saved by simply delaying planting the empirical chord by one minute. So one minute and 60 seconds, where did the statistics come from? Is it 58 seconds? What were the medical procedures performed? What were the settings in the actual operation rooms? So a doctor in Africa when I see something like this and I would be very excited and I stop at 60 seconds to see what is the truth out of this whole number of jobs. So as a cartoonish way of looking at it, this is a claim so something related to dampers and on structures. Imagine I see it somewhere in a publication. That's me if I see it. I get excited. I think this is really interesting that claim. And I realize I have access to all the lab work and the simulation work in order for me actually to support or find further evidence to support this claim. So I take my lab setup. I do the necessary experiment. I do my simulation work and out of that comes a bunch of data experimented setup, the code, the solutions, the equations, the simulations hundreds of gigabytes maybe of simulations and these are what we call knowledge bits. So these are bits of knowledge that artifacts for instance which are distributed all over the place will be useful beyond saying I as an expert no, I as an expert perform the necessary simulations or found the necessary knowledge bits to support or refute this kind of work. And then you share it with those community in order to validate this claim and then everybody is happy. You can see that nowhere in the stage there are coins or gold stuff or crypto shared because so far we're dealing with a normal setup where if I share with you, you share with me and we deal with data basically. We deal with exchange of not crypto tokens but crypto knowledge as James mentioned earlier. So I did this in Windows so when you put it in Mac it gets messed up. So the question about somebody mentioning about science about finding conciliants or finding some kind of consensus but what kind of consensus at the end of the day? The reason we went down to the most elemental level of scientific work is to go down to the claim, the basic claim. On a given publication you might have thousands of things. For instance Figure 2 shows the second border trend of response y as a function of x. That's basically a result that people need to validate or reproduce that. So the nice part about this is that you can get contributions from a lot of different fields interested in a very elemental claim. So for instance the claim I mentioned earlier about the statistical method of bagging and data modeling and so on this is used in astrophysics and biology and mathematics and statistics in crypto in a lot of different fields. And different fields might have different point of views about certain claims. They might have types of evidence and knowledge bits to support or refute a certain claim. And that's working on the claim level of a big research topic that's for a big publication or big giant topics. If you can downgrade it to very small, you get far more valuable contributions. This might be opportunity that's another problem because if I'm able to put a big picture around it, the statistical method then that's fine. So what's the end game in here is that we have a lot of knowledge bits so we can produce data, we'll produce code, but we want to use them in a really proper manner. And one of these manners is that you can merge some fluid and evolving use cases for these knowledge bits instead of having them that say open source and nobody ever using them in any sense or in any useful sense. The idea that you're sharing with society, you're sharing with your community basically to make things more useful. I will show it in a second but the idea is that you're not only integrating evidence but you're also, there are opinions. Because a lot of the processes start with opinions, with beliefs, so private beliefs in a Bayesian sense for instance which gets updated gradually with evidence and hard work ideas for hard work evidence. So there's a combination of those two. At the moment the way you set up the system we've built now these are not integrated, they are separate but the idea that eventually you can do the updating over time in order to come up with that consensus of some sort. A very powerful thing that we built is something related to social bias. You mentioned that, I and I mentioned that science is about consensus. We can agree for a long time, but it takes only one person to destroy all of this evidence so it's not a tyranny of the majority, it's actually the rule of minority, because it takes only one piece of evidence in order to destroy all of this consensus that we've built over time. So, especially if this outlier is very well presented with evidence. So if it's just an opinion and you say global warming is a hoax, fine but as long as there's no evidence this bullshit if there is supported by evidence it's very, very powerful means. And then this is the idea of the what child evidence means. It's freezing cold out there. Yeah. So freezing cold out here and a hoax for evidence within your observation for a second would be a thermometer that actually Yeah, it's reading. So you have a camera, you're freaking GoPro and then you have the thermometer or thermocouple and then you show the temperature that you're measuring out here. The problem is 10 degrees is cold for you, but it's maybe not cold for me. So here you get into the opinion stage. But then I'm used to it, it's not a problem. But you're not so exposed to it. For the climate things, I mean you follow the climate scientists, they need to do this. You see the climate scientists showing always the low water and the depths and California and the drama it's freezing in New York. Yeah, but the thing about global warming, I think it's a stupid name because global warming is not about warming, it's about actually maybe the mean being slightly higher over time. But what really makes a difference is actually the the large variabilities that you will observe get very hot, very cold, large temperatures, which are not necessarily very frequent. But then when they occur, they really really do. So it's about the extreme amount. It's not about the extreme amount. Are you kidding me? Have you thought about it? There's two things that you've thought about. I mean there's a lot of work on the particles. Oracles. So when we which seems or I can catch all to correct, maybe if you have a question that would be my next question. So a lot of ideas, I mean when we started with this work in we were talking and then definitely the problem with science is that you might not have a final truth, a closing of the market. You cannot say this is yes or no. In a prediction market where you have oracles their job is really easy because what you're doing is that this event took place in a 0-1 fashion. In our case what's the, how do you close the market on the statistical method that I described earlier. So definitely at the end I would like to get a community of value makers. So people who are, that's committed actually to provide evidence into the system. For instance a community called the Climate Feedback is not a mistake. It's based in Australia or somewhere. They take social media and they take all climate-related applications in the newspaper and they have a network of experts. They look into these claims. So they are professors or PhDs or what more than they actually are dedicated. Every time there's an article of five or six of those experts in a network of under they have time for we, for instance, to look into this problem and they provide the evidence to support the review there. Whether it's partial truth, partial untruth and so forth. So with the oracles definitely it's part of their job, but in this case we're not just searching on the internet whether Hillary won or not, or Democrats. It's not a binary outcome. It's a bit more difficult. And it's an open process. So we wanted to have a prediction market, but we realized you would never close it. And if it's prediction market with an N infinite, it will lose liquidity, but it will not work. This is the interface of the system. So I don't know if people are using it again. I'll be here. That's how it actually looks like right now. People are familiar with the Kaggle, but the idea is that you have a list of all the ghosted claims on. What you have is the title of the claim. The left title could be formulated as you've seen it in a newspaper, or you've copied it as you understand it. It doesn't really matter. You've got the person who created the claim, who hosted it, actually who created the claim. You've got maybe a small summary, a small abstract about the claim being hosted on the system and then a bunch of keywords. And you get a very quick summary about how many knowledgements were created in order to support this claim and how many knowledgements were created in order to refute this claim. If you go to the end of the system, you will get what we call a social histogram. It's a social histogram. Basically it tells you who voted. It's pure vote at the moment on this thing. Who voted on this claim in terms of the belief system? You've got varying degrees of belief in basically how you believe in the claim that you just made. So the nice part about this, if you have hundreds of people voting more during this system, you might get some kind of histogram. This histogram is not associated only with numbers but also with human beings. And each one of those dots is associated with an argument. So you can not only do your vote, but you also provide an argument as to how you vote because it's not enough to be an asshole and vote disagree with it because I can. It's why did you vote? Not yet. I was just curious about the metric of that. Why accesses? At the moment it's just purely visual in order to place. You, actually there's integration of the system where you have a weight that relates to the expertise level but I still, I'm not convinced that that's true because I can get an expert now. It's one thing expert tomorrow is going on. So as long as this is an informed outlier. So this person is voting the way he's voted and he is a feminist because you can not only vote to an argument but to an evidence. It's far more powerful than just voting or just connecting the dots without a reputation or a weight of some sort. We have two or three iterations on this. So Martin if you go inside so so you've got the setup that you've seen earlier and then we have two sections how the size, what the size and what the social opinion because what size says is purely related to evidence sorry, that's purely related to evidence. You can add knowledge bits to refute that claim and you can add knowledge bits to support the claim. At the moment we link to repositories where these knowledge bits are located. So they could be publications they could be IPFS data could be Google whatever data sets could be artifacts as we try to figure out how to do that. So it's not limited to for instance a publication it could be anything that is of certain value You're also adding where it's from Yeah, because if you click on if you click on the plus sign so basically so when you're clicking on this one now you need to sign forget it I can even I can just yes, you can but you can go back you can close it actually from up there Yeah, you can go to so we can find this particular claim so it's not on my computer it's not on my computer it's actually not on my computer you have the single side on working for all those you have the single side on working for all those unless it's not if it's not failing and buggy then it should work for all of them that's good, when a lot of those use it a lot I guess but that's the other side you don't think you can utilize it very we're going to talk more about it I have a couple of questions so it seems sort of like this is maybe a scientific focus next generation of there are all kinds of fact checking sites on the web or you mentioned even if you are to some degree has social but it has some kind of weighted sort of upvoting even if it's mostly conjecture and opinions a lot of things that I see the things that are upvoted seem to be things that maybe I disagree with people that are pretty credible or decent writers I like that it seems like even some of the UI elements you're using that are really well done on even just like shopping sites where you can say these shoes fit size but how about this as an idea instead what about a chrome plug-in that can pop up if one of the knowledge bits happen to relate to it even if this is the UI that some of you are looking at to give that extra context and say hey Martin's browsing on this paper by the way one of these bits is related maybe ask Martin standing tall and he's like oh yeah that's a great point I've been thinking about doing some more research I'm going to dive in just to give it that extra little bit of context and not lose the attention of Michael I've never said so because I've been trying to figure out and I've told a few of you that on Instagram so you will not get a 16 100 million 16 year olds to work on this for sure so you need that attention of people and very specific community to work on so something about practicedolls.com probably will not work as such so you need to have it plugged in the idea is that why not have it seamlessly integrated into from some like a cash or something that's a weird one it could be useful now there's another tool called hypothesis.is there you can on the fly annotate websites you can highlight certain things there's also the centralized version of hypothesis don't click and you can actually then choose where you want to save also everything pieces of annotated you can have your own part of the data or something where you want to I was just saying that you don't click L because the idea is to keep working on what you're working on without losing attention to where you want to be and the hypothesis where you have a Chrome plugin basically it is essentially developed to work as a plugin so you can make a note and you can actually just I think probably putting this up or other things and Chrome in particular is a really pretty good mini development environment if you're on a page, even if you just start with something that's easy to identify work identifier to UI there's a lot you can show pretty easily and so many of the additional things you see on these sites they're not really they're not really interactive they don't really do any kind of value exchange it's just like all metrics this page has been downloaded first view you can look at that or it's like export this citation which just takes you away but even as an experiment you can build that in demo this gives another level of interactivity and of course you could potentially feedback some of that information as a part of it so we've been thinking about how to make it more interactive without going to practice which just doesn't make sense because you're using you're making a step for any of us that are building a new platform I mean we talked to partners and investors like 10 times a day and that's always the first thing if you say oh we're going to get Instagram we're just like we had a similar problem maybe it wasn't more special so we wanted to get the community adding proofs for special identities of special functions so we started our own website and eventually it turned out that no mathematicians would go to this particular website and add their proofs but then we moved to Wikidata and there's more potential of collaboration and in Wikidata you especially have the reference section which is empty for almost any facts that are there so I think this would be a perfect match when you link your page where you have claims that can be described as machine read the statements in Wikidata to the claim so that would be perfect 6 months ago I was starting an old man and his first thing is why don't you use Wikipedia as an integrator basically or Wikidata and that's perfect sense notice there are no built-in incentives in the system yet and I don't know if it's needed I don't know yeah a lot of thought about this so I think one of the talks at the conference said Amazon has 200 APIs for their homepage right that's the baseline so we have to do that as a community using UI so like we have the data types and commentations and I think we need to do it the user experience too whether it's rally around the beaker browser or tools that you see popping up in the community but I think we need to do that collaborative framework for UI so you don't have to build another charging system if you click on one of them it will go to the bottom and let's say give your opinion I hope you don't have to do to have to take on this one and you can use it so issues and you said well I firmly agree with this thing that's fine but then you will have to save it and it will save it just your opinion and that's where metrics could probably become quite useful where you say not only did I vote but I also gave an argument so you can go and put an argument in here either you actually pull an existing argument because you agree with it or you give your own argument discussion form you're probably saying this is what I think what he replies to you or what not there's no interactive discussion taking place because then it will become a reddit and you will lose track of what's going on finally if you use it each and let's say there's a bunch of evidence collected here when you do your argumentation you can choose which evidence fits with the argument that you just gave so it's not just an opinion you can link it directly to a certain evidence so when you're voting in a social graph you're giving an opinion you're giving an argument while you voted the way you voted and you're giving an evidence supporting the argument that you gave so what's going on now there are separate the idea that you can use these as a prior knowledge and update there's no graph for instance a social graph at the moment because it's just a general thing but we can implement this as a remark there's a whole chapter about this kind of system which is radical markets like really high in the ethereal community and then they test it about different approaches of these votes and what I think he suggested voted the best if you give the person a choice and say see that claim and take into account if you could cast 100 votes today how many would you put on that it seems a bit complicated and even Boris he then suggests that the vote only counts as square root of the number of votes but but he suggested that it's an interesting alternative but that's actually more than just a binary count there's another version of this one that Charles is working on basically here you're just agreeing with this but under this there are a lot of let's call them potential metrics let's say impact on society impact on my baby or CO2 so you can build a matrix this matrix will contain the leaf level and then the metrics that you're interested in I'm not interested in society's well-being so I will vote it very low as an impact on of this claim on society but maybe I'm interested in the well-being of my son so I will put it in a very separate thing I put this in a fully disagreeable way so you can actually there's another version of this where you can have a lot of metrics and you're not voting as a global claim you're not voting on the parameters or some elements of this claim as such so you get let's call it a heat map of the leaves instead of just a linear but it still appears as a discussion for essentially so I mean is there any mapping to judge the validity of the claim because what you're describing is a system of opinion so basically an opinion survey that's it all of this project is to make a very very versatile very flexible system of opinion survey among anybody okay it's alright but it somehow tries to pursue the claim of finding the truth so that's partially true what you said because it considers this part of the work and this part of the work again it's not a discussion form and asking questions and getting you're just providing an opinion an argument and connecting it to a proper evidence when you're just providing an opinion you're writing a bunch of comments and that's it you're not providing, you maybe give a link here and there to support what you're saying but here you have to support it with a proper evidence otherwise it's just not really about it here you're not providing any opinions you're providing the evidence the support for evidence to support or refute the claim with you is that we're not providing a conclusion yet there's no an algorithm to provide a conclusion 90% valid 80% valid in the group called Climax feedback a metric of let's say 80% true 60% true, 50% true here combining this information is much more difficult to base on the evidence and opinions instead of just opinions providing conclusions but then the key question is the audience and the users because as a scientist you should know that in every academic discipline if you don't talk about the use of the laws of something in the past if I talk about the discussed and researched and debated documents there's a counter evidence to every evidence we need to know we need to know it's very more of a fixed consensus about some basic stuff but I mean there's no evidence that means the laws working are trying to black out how to launch a law but not that they do it well so where is the truth how they say that these laws are wrong I mean they are working science plus man are kind of working but is it true I mean the system explains about the truth I mean we always have opinions you have facts and as a scientist choose how to interpret it and it's your opinion and your belief it's not the truth and then someone else can take the same facts and have a different opinion and maybe for example let's think of quantum theory and stream theory our quantum theory is actually not backed up by main experiments stream theory looks at something that explains something that quantum can you need to elucidate all the hidden knowledge bits because in order to come to a conclusion of some sort you need to surface all the evidence where is all the evidence and if you go to your own community you will have one point of view if you talk to a different community of course you do that's how it is you could wait two things this is not philosophy, philosophers ask questions they are profiling I mean if you want there is something that resembles like Aura like James said very popular and very important things that are now launched to separate fake news from non-fake fiction it's a very simplistic thing fake not fake and the statement that you are providing there for example it's just made out of this but I mean it's one thing and now I think in scientific debates there are discussions on science and they are not so simplistic by fact from fiction true but then in order to base these discussions on real evidence you need to show evidence to support whatever subject you are discussing if you go to your community and you only see one point of view supporting a certain kind this is true for you but this is not true outside that world you are not necessarily in a pure old thing it's either open to some kind of interpretation that's why it's not a prediction market that can be closed and then when I say refute or support this can be open forever is there something like what is the what defines like quality evidence in this case is there a standard for at the moment when you are adding it you will see that or you need to describe what's this evidence it could be a publication it could be a data set is there any service to this community just deciding on the quality at the moment of course you are giving a thumbs up but we did not go in the direction of quality qualifying that's it step one step one showing the evidence not question one it's like a 20 year old dialogue that we need to hold no one answers that question but there is a whole science in it my question here is complexity of this debate this debate comes out which is fundamental to the sociology and science put those two things together of the evolution of ever more better and more effective however you want to phrase it knowledge and every time that conversation comes up people get very very heated and lots of really good insights but from a very different point of view for me the frustration is the reason that is happening is because there is a huge amount of depth and detail in various disciplines and you can't have that conversation in like 30 minutes in an event like this and yet there is no forum or place to evolve that conversation rational let's say 10-15 year period because that's what we will need to get to the bottom of this sort of stuff when we look at things like the widgets that you've got on there I mean I can talk about painterly widgets 3D widgets but I'm sort of putting my hand out and saying no no you aren't talking to me like that but I know that there's no way to easily have that conversation with you with this community over a period of time to develop the sophistication of the graphics that you need for that and then you've got questions of philosophy of knowledge and then you've got all these different maps how do you see what is a beautiful I mean a very important way of fragmenting knowledge into argument graphs and having a social collaboration over that which is by evidence based and etc etc how do you see taking what's a part-time hobby of yours because no one's paying you to do it into a dialogue where we can build this stuff this is a very very good question to be honest I'm not so sure how it's going to be I don't know if there's a question to everyone in here I mean you can say about I would have a meet-up in Zurich but you need the interest of people and to your point it's not a question of only science we need philosophers, we need social science we need different points of view in order to contribute to this and it's not related to only how to debate it but how to visualise it as well so when you say well an interface that's secondary in the topic such as this one and we didn't discuss in this context society and science we didn't discuss anything related to incentivisation because that could be a big part I didn't think that one thing about this what about that's the stage one of some kind of prediction market besides that and it would be interesting in the way that that's what's setting the topics and you see that there's a majority of opinion on one side but then someone's actually having insight and he can have a complete difficulty and he may be aware that this insight actually turns this entire around so upside down what he does is that he is staking something to the exact opposite that's what the majority believes but I am in a state of the game now and I'm betting it will be exactly the opposite I give the example in the beginning where there's a claim and I receive this claim and I do my experiments both in simulations and actually real life experiments now I'm rich, my institution is rich they have the access to all of these facilities so I can have this deep insight because I have the facilities and the access and then get big because I know 90% of the suckers have access to what I access to and then when big so it puts the people of access to the advantage however the night is that this is not a linked page you can plug and click on one space and then go see the history of contributions so you see this contribution knowledge in life you know in real life what is contributed instead of I did this and I did that which is not true so on one hand this could be interesting on the other hand it could be interesting for poorer people with poorer access because they can showcase exactly in real life what they've done and not say in a resume what they've done or in LinkedIn you can see exactly what they've contributed and that opens a lot of pores to many people I believe this cloud-based reproducible research platform where we are the world we play a role in it here because if somebody has a claim and if they have a data and then some algorithms analysis and some graphics and tables that's supported it could publish it in our platform and then with the one link in here we could say okay if you want look at my claim just close my project right away and then execute it as you can see here you can link to the first second repository one of your repositories could be on a Python notebook which could be easily forked and then a lot of people can have you know it could start here in a bunch of evidence refuting the claim but then with all the forking it might end up in here and the beauty about it is to see the transition from here to here and why it happened so for instance you can have a repo in your system making it here and people would fork it in your system and it would be reflected in here for example A, B, C and D have forked here you cannot answer all the questions but some of the ones that are readily testable by looking at the data and we can make a great improvement on that 100% now the big question such as this one can be debated forever but then the much smaller questions or claims that response wise in order as a function of X this could be settled very quickly and that could be answered very quickly you can start with opinions but very quickly you can push to a bunch of evidence what are the types of group? it's a system for scientists informing society and by society it could be society at large on the big questions society could be your community and not X so that's how it is the idea is that this could eventually evolve into doubts and micro doubts each one of those claims can become a doubt about itself so when they say society we cannot close it all in science no, I mean if we do science in a closed form what about the people outside that have no clue what's going on they need to also be informed do you think some of the problems could stem from the generalized nature of the questions that are asked so saying something like human beings are responsible for global warming there's a lot of assumptions and a lot of definitions if I said if I had two arguments human beings are responsible for global warming first of all how do I define global warming how do I do this human activity do you think natural processes were responsible for global warming but you could forcibly make the argument that human evolution and human activity are not separate from nature so I'm just saying these things are because you don't have a bunch of clear definitions and because there's a lot of assumptions built into these questions it's not it's binary it's true that's why you cannot that's why you cannot close it as long as you surface the evidence stage one surface the evidence in both cases then you can have if you said like carbon emissions also for a two degree change in global temperatures on average that's a very good point that's why we went to the basic element of a claim however I mean people understand a claim in a certain global way other person will go to and that's why I made a few clips on this one related claims and on purpose we didn't put a form that you have to fill with forecastism because here with the same type of claim could be understood by different people in different ways then what you end up with with different people participate in this that's why I'm kind of supporting the idea of this I mean maybe a matrix could potentially develop in a way that you have this is kind of like using opinions closer to truths I think it's a perfectly reasonable way of doing it we're not going to use a prior starting point as a form prior and then you support it with the evidence that is being collected it's a Bayesian approach I think it needs to be worked at I mean there's a website there's a company in Israel actually that is making basically claiming that using a Bayesian approach they can tell that this is a correct or false claim which is possible but that's suggestive and that's very hard to do in a contest but that's based on fake news but it's a different topic it's a bit of a balance between structure and what you can do with mathematics logic and code it's very kind of pretty rigid non-instructors which are very powerful to scale arguments over large networks I'm not happy with they're so brittle and then you have these very fluffy just opinionated panels and groups of people or click on the star thing it's just not got enough structure and between that you've got all sorts of knowledge from and you've got a dynamic process often when you want to start off kind of loose and open and a bit poetic and then you want to build a coral reef you want to lay down evidence with peer review or with scientific experiment or with replicating those results you want to start to get more solid over a period of time and then you want the diversity of social opinion so your coral reef might be different from a bunch of people's but to do that overall social process we need a way to collaborate over the things that we need to share to build what is a fucking big thing coral reef is a big thing so view the data structures of these little opinion graphs and how easy is that for us to access that and share it the widgets that you created are you using some standard way to build the widget because it's so much more work to do that so how can we evolve again the complexity or this is like 100 times more complex than Facebook so maybe a thousand times some budget or Facebook to produce it over time because this is way more complicated than Facebook right but this is 100 times more complicated it's just kind of number two basically to open the system to limit this definitely for the whole science world yes sometimes it's worse because you get the scale of everything but it's not and then these will be made inside I had just talked about us to Jason yesterday and told him how much I do as I have my heart right to represent the opinions that I have they are preceding the inside that I would be able to deliver the proof for this so any scientific anything besides doing some large things is always correct sorry we did like oh we do gene expression profiling and we have a fine but we didn't even know what we were looking for because like the things where you actually very well know this is the mechanism, it must be like that and then you try to do both as an example it's community blockchain will be very relevant in science okay and then as soon as you post that on the internet and then I have, yeah you did kind of and I have this inside and I do the blockchain and science because there must be a connection then you find all the research on scaling theory and I know that's not what I'm interested about and suddenly I find this wow there's another guy that's doing it and then one year later it's already in this crowd right so it's kind of a signaling layer that's preceding the yeah cool I think I can stop here sorry it's also again there's a problem here how do you populate these different pieces of the system being that you need a community of validators or participants to be willing how do you get these participants if they're not incentivized I don't know I mean the other part is that how do you create conclusions of the evolving work such as this one so there's a lot of open questions I think at the moment that this is the starting point and the idea of Wikipedia is definitely one of those things and the annotation and the hypothesis is definitely where we're going to go later yeah thanks yeah so okay I'll just give you an update on the program because the program on the internet doesn't match anymore so now we're going to have a long session like this by Paul Polnars who actually is going to show us how the economic insight can feed into such a system of predicting potential valuable things in the future we have also, just to give you an idea it's 12.30, we ordered pizza for everyone so if you're hungry switch this in an hour and afterwards we would really want to be discussing ideally connect topics during lunch so we always start out thinking and I will talk with you a little bit more about the lunch break and also I would like to invite Martin for adding a short presentation as well another idea that's kind of funny for us because I met him in the telegram and I said why don't you come by because he's having another idea on how to change the panicking system anyways from the story short and Paul actually I saw his presentation like 2 weeks ago or 3 weeks ago at the meet up in Berlin and the recording I said this is amazing this is really cool and I'm really happy that it worked so quickly to get attached I'm so excited to be part of this community as well I think as you kind of just said before there's a connection between science and blockchain is really fascinating welcome guys so the focus of this talk is really is really to give an intro into token engineering which is kind of like a new practice that has popped up so it should be more of an information share, knowledge share for you guys very generally treating this topic of token engineering the alignment didn't work and then also just give a brief intro what we're working on with molecule protocol and how we're applying some of this specifically in the drug development space who was at the blockchain for science conference almost everyone except Michael so most of you kind of have heard about your protocol before but I didn't know no you haven't I can give a very short intro just kind of on what we're trying to do so what is molecule protocol, molecule protocol is an open source ecosystem to incentivize decentralized research and development in chemical compounds and drugs so the leading question is how can we incentivize for the development of these molecules and drugs which is going to be very centralized and monopolistic in the high drug prices how can we incentivize decentralized R&D around this and molecule protocol itself is a market making platform for price discovery and funding to essentially be able to crowd source valuable drugs for human time and crowd source here really means more around how can we incentivize different participants in like different stakeholders in this entire industry ecosystem to start collaborating more and what do we do at its core at its core it distributes the cost the cost of developing drugs which is extremely I won't I know we have a slide where I go through all of the problems but I really want to focus more on the engineering aspects of it but the cost it costs about two and a half billion per drug the risk about one percent of compounds that ever go into development actually can make it to market so you spend two and a half billion and most of the stuff that you I mean the risk of failure is high into that two and a half billion process that's high but it takes 10 to 15 years so it takes a really long time to bring drugs to market and the ownership this is kind of the base problem that you find with IP and patents that the reason we have patents is so that companies can recuperate their investments into building new technology and then the monopoly then ends up in very very high drug prices which get offered to consumers and then in the health care system so that has an effect on the GDP if you look at the problems in the SOS isn't there a false one that you decentralized the libelism what the libelism well risk is twofold so the risk in terms of the cost of failure but it would be brilliant if you're a truck company you decentralize the development and you get like just four people in India doing something and there's some toxic reaction and you've got no clear legal structure there you're also decentralizing the liability there's something that goes wrong which has very morally interesting and quite disturbing indication it's a good point so from a liability perspective there is still a legal structure to tie this to in the way that we're using it yeah it's not anyone in his basement can load or something yeah that's not the idea we'll have a more detailed description of how it works cool so the name is like token engineering one-on-one talk token engineering has been getting a lot of attention recently whatever you want to go through you guys is like a basic introduction how many of you know how an ICO actually works like from a technical perspective like what happens on that blockchain yeah okay cool so maybe I only saw about 8 hands up so I think it's worth just all coverage we look at different token categories we're going to look at the different steps that actually come in token engineering so really approaching this as a practice of mechanism design rather than just like let's have a token which a lot of what I started doing in 2017 and then we'll look at two specific concepts one of them is token curated registries which are often confused with curation markets and finally we look at curation markets they are a form of curation market but it's a subset of it and then in the end also I put some more slides and specifically we'll look at how we're using let's say this is more the theory how this can be extremely broadly applied to different systems and then in the end we'll look at how we're using this in a more concrete sense so that we can kind of finish with a practical practical example of how these incentives might change in the industry cool so crypto requires an understanding of technology, economics business, cryptography finance, cyber security monetary policy security law, psychology sociology, geopolitics industry so it plays to be well rounded in this new world I like this tree it's from a guy who is big and he posts great things sometimes and there is an essence of truth to this because it's like a wide combination of different fields so it makes it so exciting so maybe in blockchain besides we can add all of the different scientific fields and then we can start thinking about this then in my background I studied economics and international affairs in Switzerland things have really got deep into the tech space in around 2016 and always kind of just had a profound interest in pharmaceutical or macroeconomic because this system is very and you're dealing with people's health why don't we have a good system but I suppose you can say that about many systems today cool so maybe just to be into what actually is an ICO from a technical perspective and this is just to set the base level of what are tokens so a token sale to ICO will always follow a contract standard EOC 20, EOC 223 EOC 777 EOC means Ethereum for comment which then turns into an EIP which is an Ethereum improvement proposal so this is like a formalized proposal process to introduce standards so most token issuances are down to using standards so again this is also talking about tokens on Ethereum you can deploy tokens on different platforms but Ethereum kind of industrialized the deployment of tokens and the EOC 20 contract so this is a smart contract because it maps addresses in Ethereum and updates their balances so I'm sure you're awesome in address or you're saying Bitcoin somewhere so nobody you have an address don't ever send that token to this address or like destroy them that's like the zero zero zero but like let's say you have an address and then each address has a balance the same if we have an Excel sheet with like who have a balance and then you have a total supply and those individual addresses have different balances what the contract does is when I make a token transfer I ping the contract and say please update the balance from here to here so tokens and these tokens can pretty much represent anything and that's why people have been launching tokens to represent different things but they often don't actually serve any function like 99% of all tokens on Ethereum are completely useless they are literally they are just entries in a database and so even a token is not an actual thing it's an entry in a contract we basically created a database with programs on them and a token contract is just an entry in a database on a database so it's also very different than thinking about things like Bitcoin or Ether which are actually where you can actually have cryptographic private keys to in this sense you're owning control entries in a contract many people don't think about this way about tokens but that's actually what they are they can represent anything and anyone can make one within minutes we can deploy a token within 5 minutes and be like oh we have tokens but it's super simple so in Ethereum the token can act like a key for an application things like voting or dividends obviously it makes sense if we can measure this and show this somewhere that changes are being made by individual participants or a variety of things but today most of these tokens have zero like you can do zero with them and ideally you should be able to do something with them within the blockchain system so essentially what token engineering does it looks at like what we have is now but how can we actually make the tokens do something and something that if you think of Bitcoin as like a system the Bitcoin as its primary token that token is incentivizing hundreds of thousands of people and computers across the world to consume I think as much energy as Australia sorry Austria we talked about this yesterday it's like more than a year ago one of the growing things to say was it's like more than like 70 times more computing power than all of the biggest supercomputers in the world combined and that is creating incentives so now you have a token that causes people to reel things in the real world and that's kind of how I think we should think about token engineering like how can we really create incentives cool so what is token engineering token engineering is a combination of systems and mechanism design so mechanism design is a practice that is like widely used in different systems in biology and like circuit engineering but token engineering combines like mechanism design with mechanism engineering combines so now we asked how can we use these new systems to make useful stuff it's the actually you can quote this it's the rigorous design analysis and verification of systems assisted by tools that break itself theory of practice and engineering in general is a discipline of responsibility so you need to be equity and professional accountable to your creations a good example here is we had a bridge collapse in Italy so that is really good engineering and so with these systems if you really want to design a system as a whole then you need to be equity sound so today you could say what to rebuild the Bitcoin network what if it really makes sense to consume that much energy so maybe those engineering choices are better today that could be not sound anymore could I object so the Chinese thing is to let or should be should be should be engineering should be it must never do it's really boldly like that so it makes it very easy for people to find that's a fair point I'll just we have ethical choices that we want to make and then finally it's also let's talk about token economics token engineering is not equal to token economics you can have crypto economics as this kind of all fair token economics is then essentially saying if we create a system like this now with a buzzing the older participants then what are the economics behind that does it make sense to them do the investors that build the system get a lot of return out of it so that's been analyzing token economics for me today is more like VCs from the economics perspective but the engineering aspect of it totally defines economics cool so these engineering also results in different legal classifications so you can have payment tokens to pay stuff and these are kind of the going classifications that were established in Switzerland and Liechtenstein is kind of dealing with similar legal classifications so payment tokens you pay currency currency tokens got deployed you have a problem here that's like why do I need separate currency for each app that I'm using that's kind of nonsense and then people are never going to hold those currencies like I'm only going to buy Uber tokens when I use Uber and otherwise I'm just going to hold all of it so the second one is asset tokens you own it which can be debt equity ownership or security and the last one and then utility tokens and so you actually use them for something and so token engineering really flows into this last thing is like how can you create utility tokens for when you think utility tokens got into a lot of which we've usually tried to actually implement some of this stuff utility tokens got a bad rep last year because a lot of people for these two you need to have legal you need to be legally sure or like this for payment tokens you need AML and KYC and for asset tokens you're issuing a security but for utility tokens everyone is like hmm we don't really know and so a lot of people were like our token is definitely a utility token when they were totally not a utility token they had zero utilities so they said this is a utility token but it was actually one of these often often one of these and then utility got a lot of bad rep just because everyone was like your utility token is not a utility token and then there was statistics economists from Frankfurt and they said 80% of the tokens on the product were a utility token I thought they were claimed to be a utility token yeah yeah so another question could potentially exclusively all of these are used as some kind of direct incentive right direct incentives would be to do something with the system often the incentives for this is just to raise money hmm that's the incentive for the what it is consuming some of the consumer companies say I don't want Uber I just wanted to get an Uber and pay in bulk and so the incentive for them is actually so I think the point is there so in thinking about Bitcoin everybody would say it's a currency it's not as well as incentivizing models to keep the life right I'm just asking you a question so it seems like maybe if you use the example of the Uber coin maybe it's really more just the mechanism it just happens to be the mechanism that Uber or some part of it and so the incentive the real incentive of the user of the Uber coin these cities would get an Uber to get a ride and it just so happens that there was a deal if you download the wallet and use the Uber coin you get 20% off so then you have an incentive so the incentive is really a discount for the service that they ultimately want and the fact that they're using any kind of a token it's just between hey print out this coupon and bring it to our store that's the token that would allow them to get 20% off yeah so Uber doesn't have a coin by the way just so you guys missed it yes if you're an engineer like a discount into how this would be out it's just like thousands of different dApps launched with the basis of being a payment token why should I pay for each app that I wanted would be like if you have an app on your phone and each one you need a separate currency for it to pay for that doesn't make sense no we talked about this I think a lot yesterday we had all these different dApps I'm a little skeptical to be honest we need some kind of direct incentive to encourage people and then also be able to directly pay them back with any of the work they're doing and it seemed like that same kind of question maybe came up with a lot of other things and even said well if there was some kind of incentive thing that we could use it would probably make more sense it's not force people to I mean it's exactly like when apps first download our app I don't need a thousand I'm doing this when I use it one time I want to get the 20% discount but you're forcing the dApp to have on my phone which I'm just going to delete yeah and to me that seems a little it's like what people have said is like payment tokens are going to have extremely low velocity which means that no one actually wants to hold them because it's like if I download the app I'll delete it afterwards because I want to have the discount so if I want to service fine I'll buy your token and I'll sell it again afterwards because I don't want to have all this token junk like floating around so the other way this is a very different conversation I'm saying I will incentivize you to provide mining power and security to the network at a massive scale and that's how the incentive works because in this case I just want to consume a service there's no bigger incentive scheme floating around that dApp will only be for whoever breaks the app to sell the token in order to raise funding which is why we bought so many of these but yeah I think we're missing that argument seems very American which is that the only incentive is financial largely there is a lot of ways with tokens that you can attach different kind of ethical and moral values to tokens for instance with Uber it doesn't necessarily need to be I get a cash discount could be I'm getting for the community or I use these tokens then I get maybe a cab a bit faster or I support the use of transport for communities in my town or whatever it is I mean there's a lot of things that we can build around this it's just there and the idea that people will reject these multiple payment tokens because you just want to hold it it's too complex I mean that's a GUI problem that's just the fact that we just have these really like these weird spreadsheets it's entirely possible to have a quite rich interface where you're dealing with what complex human values that happen to use numbers in the background like a token and the fact that Tesco's or SuperMarch or Uber all have their own token systems isn't all out of hand at this age yeah it's true I think so we just on that I think stable points are going to make a lot of that a lot of the arguments for things like that is totally irrelevant and then if you really have a blockchain based system like let's say you have really had a decentralized version of an Uber and you somehow introduce the payment token in there and raise funding on that anyone can fork your token out because it's actually not needed so the community at some point saying you know what this was launched by Uber but your code is open sourced and it's all there we'll create a side project and we'll fork your token out and that's another token that's not actually baked natively into the protocol we'll just mobile place your payment function will die like a stable coin and then yeah and the inefficiency so it creates inefficiency in essence but the other coin like what you're saying which is absolutely true so some did a review of a really cool article which is called should you adapt have a token to your publisher and I think that made 2016 already and what he was saying is like look yes a lot of these things might not make sense but like people love holding flags and so like he so he had a little comic there where it's like one guy holding a flag or one football team and then like another guy holding another flag and they look at each other and they're like like it creates like tribalism so it can create its ownership and instead the feeling of community to own like you're owning a part of it yeah so this is very different like also psychological components I think to some of this but yeah cool one type of tokens are actually in existence today so looking a little bit at like the taxonomy of the space there's so many more on the topic so I would like call me a funiable token so in year C20 we'll look briefly at the year C20 contract but I want to go to the funiable basically means a visible and there's non-fungible tokens which in non-fungible there's like one token equals one token crypto-kitties is a good example so like trading with cash pretty much anything to that global look at how this is actually also just a part of engineering so the tokens that own tokens and we can have another token so like your crypto-kitty could own a house or like a toy but this actually becomes really interesting when you start thinking about like about like gaming economies where you could have a character that is represented by one token and the character now owns multiple sub tokens and the characters can trade tokens with each other and you can ultimately sell your character which happens very often if you look at like economies around games like World of Warcraft these were sold for a lot of money some of these kitty were sold for a lot of money oh yeah the best kitty one kitty sold for $140,000 that was the best kitty that was the best kitty that was the best kitty there's also things called minimi tokens there's not that much research on that anymore but it's like tokens that can fork into sub tokens so you can have one token contract that kind of copies it and copies itself over with and so you have these like yeah I think for voting for voting for example so this was used in the DAO so the DAO was experimenting with minimi tokens before Kitty blew up but that's kind of where it came from there's also newer I saw an example of Delaware sharing I think it shouldn't be there's a newer standard called USE 1400 which basically is an USE that fully incorporates anything that you would need for the issuance of securities so voting you have transfer restrictions bay 10 you have so that already is like a fully intelligent token because you can now utilize it to do a lot of different functions that you would need in like corporate shapes cool I have an example here of like how a token contract in the USE 20 contract kind of works I don't want to go in too deep into this just because yeah the random time do you guys want to look into deeply how an USE 20 contract works yeah yeah come so again it's kind of a lot of repetitions so we mapped the account addresses and their balances so we have the account address and balance updated the balance can be used to represent different things so it could be a stable point monetary value the value is redefined by the contract creator so the contract creator would say this contract links to my Google application for example and so how is the token transferred it would be one address another address the contract will just update that in an autonomous way the token itself is defined by the contract's address and the total supply of tokens that are available and this includes a number of optional items that you can include so you can make basic tokens so like more advanced and these items include the name of the token contract for example if we have a world point and that name that name goes into the contract what's really important is there's no central registry or any key names so anyone can make any coin and there's no one saying that you can't have 10 world coins so there's no scam where people create coins similar to other coins and like I'll send it to you and you'll look it up and be like oh yeah this is the world coin this is the one I bought but if you don't actually compare the actual contract that is so all coins can be distinguished by the name basically so they are unique just the name can be gathered and also the symbol could in this case be WCN but the symbol is the same thing you can't reserve tickers if you think about it then the decimals refer to how divisible the token can be, this can be from 0 which is then an important token to like 18 and higher so you define how many decimals a token can have and so one example for this is if you had a token with like a divisible could be for a license so someone creates a software license product that says cool I'm issuing 100 licenses in this product it can only ever be 100 if you buy the license from me on my website I will give you a token that you can use and then that would just be like that's it in terms of plus 100 another example would be just looking at if you said you wanted to trade gold and you wanted to you wanted the balance to represent one kilogram but you wanted it to be traded at in grams and then you would set you would have to set three decimals I think so that you could trade the token with the token would be fungible to a ground degree the balance of one token would represent one kilogram that's an example for example that's an example of the utility using the token to represent gold versus it representing something else cool so we kind of covered the ground level just from a technical perspective of what these tokens can do so let's next what are the actual steps in token engineering and this was probably designed as well by the ocean team in Berlin they've really been driving a lot of research on how we can define this as an engineering profit so first you formulate a problem that you have if you don't have a problem then maybe like some people that are introducing tokens are introducing problems that weren't there before for the user and so if you don't have a problem to fix with a token then it's not a good tool then create a problem for a token then don't create a problem to have a token where are my problems that I'm addicted to tokens you're going to what that I'm addicted to tokens you don't need a token you don't need a token you don't need a token we have we have tokens and then so you formulate the problem and then the first thing that you do is don't try and reinvent a new thing like there's a lot of different problems like a lot of building blocks are replicated all and if that really doesn't work maybe you consider designing a new building block in this whole ecosystem but it's very rare that you would essentially be like this is our big problem of how our system should work and then you're like ok how can we solve this there's this, there's this other people have written about this it's like when you start a thesis you do a research review before you review all of the existing literature and then you'd be like and this is what everyone also said and this is like how I'm going to add to this but what a lot of people did like oh blockchain is totally new and without getting a deeper understanding started designing some system and that can be problematic especially because the investors in some of these systems understood the system even less that's what we're talking to to some extent do you mean like these different steps? no, no, yeah the fact that the system was evolving so fast that he didn't have time to study some of the underlying previous work yeah a question here regarding a second point of training is this new building block other people actually that don't be token engineering about mechanism design because I might read you out there like the certification on MVP mechanism design takes an engineering approach to design economic mechanisms for the incentives towards design objectives and strategic settings workplace act rationally so I would say you can pretty much say that is token engineering or the other way around I mean I imagine that there's lots of things that don't need to be invented again but I feel already quite some mathematical you know, you would be like people are doing that or? yes, so there's Michael Zargarov who has a Ph.D. mechanism design and like has gotten into space like 6 months ago but is driving research specifically around using mechanism design principles that are like, that are available and he is building or he essentially builds tools to test out the system, so like simulations because Michael and then Zargarov said A-R-T and then an hour super interesting work okay, cool so formulating the problem this is kind of where the system is in the system, what value do they provide to the system what do they get in return for providing that value and then formulating the objective and constraints that your product currently has so this is basically you formulating the problem like what are we trying to not this is not the problem, sorry this is like you want to formulate what the overall design goal of the system should be like state your overall design goal and then from that we can have like we want to maximize the supply that we want to distribute the risk of why or like we want so in the oceans case for example it's like I think it's just maximize the availability of the data sets or open source data sets and so if you have like a base design goal and then if you start building everything around that and think from like a very very high level perspective and then start actually building that yeah and again I think this is really important as well like who are the stakeholders in the system just to think of like in Uber you would be like cool we have the drivers and then we have the car providers because the drivers often don't own their own cars so then there's the insurance companies and there's the the clients there's probably the labor regulation or the labor authority and so these would all be different stakeholders they could like co-work both they play and yeah cool so in our case for example I'm thinking about mapping out these stakeholders so in pharma we have IP creators so these could be individual researchers these could be these could be universities creating new findings these could be the large pharma companies these could be biotech firms basically anyone just creating an IP because essentially they all do the same thing they just do it in various different ways in various different stages then you have data producers people producing data about the IP which could be clinical trials companies again it could be the same stakeholders but here they have different things the other is I create data about the IP that's all that for pharma it is kind of like we have intellectual property that might be valuable so there's great data about it then you have the regulators who have to verify the data to approve the IP then you have the consumers which ultimately will consume the drugs that might come from this IP and then even the investors who invested in this to get approval from this one yeah and so the key engineering question in this sense would be what do these people actually want what behaviors should they have and how can we change that behavior with smart incentive design because if we can say that the system is a little bit open which you can like if you Google innovation crisis in pharma you will find articles in a lot of 50 from Harvard and Forbes like everyone is saying and so like if you enter a problem over the broken system you can have a high chance of like solving some of these problems so how do we change behaviors I think crypto economics is basically like you can put economics on steroids but this is like economics and software but in an open source and open source way and so one cool design that we have today is new kinds of innovation markets which is kind of like a new crypto economic primitive if we think about incentives at scale and it's one building block in token engineering, there's many other building blocks but I just want to spend the next three minutes still like talking about this specific one and then one important thing to be as these are really still experiments in its early days and these are not blueprints or finished designs and a lot of this needs to be tested but it seems to attract a lot of interest and it seems to make a lot of sense and that's why for example what Michael Sagan for is like is really building a simulation of what a system like this that we designed could act like is super valuable cool so some others so one situation and other building blocks are proofs of human or proof of computational work so proof of work is proof that computational work is done also proofs of different human work like claims or reputation systems down here could be proofs of human work then identity is also a big building block that you can use in engineering and reputation and governance cool so what are I'll just give a general industry curation work first I know this I briefly talked about this at the conference as well but curation markets essentially you might reduce information asymmetry in the market through the usage of novels and the game signals generated through the use of organized crypto-economic incentives it's like how can we how can we gamify skin of the game signals and skin of the game principles are basically just about like put your money where putting your money where your mouth is and causing people to have a stake in whatever they're doing do you read some of the work from Nicholas Taleb really a really cool book that was published recently which is also all about skin of the game and how it entirely changes how companies behave and how individuals behave yeah so market participants put their money where their mouth is they stake value or attention into the markets they will be more valuable the market's currency is a proxy for its attention so I buy into something and I get its native currency but now it's in market so we're actually measuring attention the same with the stock the stock price is basically the attention on that company but then stocks are obviously tied to so what if we strip some of the principles that we find in stock markets and apply them more and proxy for attention and then so one really just going to jump back quickly one thing that became very big last year was the creating registries people just like saying TCR TCRs are different than creation markets so I think creation markets is like the global heading and then token curator registries are subheading subheading in that so it's a registry of listings generated and curated by token models so you have a list and people vote and stake on what should be in the list and at what point it should be so one of the famous examples of this or anything from names to like hashes to records one example is you can have a list you can have a TCR for 50 best restaurants in Berlin and so anyone who has a Chinese restaurant would want to be on the list because many people would end up like oh I've heard there's this community list of like the best restaurants and so if I had a Chinese restaurant I would put myself on there and let's say if it was only the 50 best restaurants the people that voted these Chinese restaurants would then be like no this is a Nazi chicken restaurant or there was something bad in food last time so I voted against this one being in there and so the currency of this list now is a negative token and the more valuable the list is so let's say the better restaurants actually on this list the more people will rely on the list and thus the value of the currency on that list goes up so the token holder now is in and have an incentive to make sure that the list is the best possible list so this could be you can have a list of the best universities in the US and let's say all of the universities want to be on this list so ideally the universities themselves would hold this list in that currency because if they do well in the list not only will they get better students but also the value of their currency goes up so the value that Good Created provides directly provides ROI to the token holders in that what it also does is if we think about velocity the token supply is reduced as more tokens are staked so because now people are staking tokens into individual listings that reduces the amount of tokens which means the price may go up which is from an economic perspective the desirable future Cool, so one this is an example of a big change in the EU promotion so for example you take you propose a public transport data so let's say this is a data set for public transport data and so I have this data set and I propose this new data set to be listed somewhere and so I state 300 tokens in and then there's a challenge and proposal period where anyone, any of the other token holders can say like no, this is actually like this is actually a bad data set and the examples that they have here is like so taxi availability status is proposed and then someone can challenge that and then individual people vote and so if I register you with cute capex people are like we got a few capex but they're like AI data sets and so this should not be on there and then what happens is the guy who put the cute capex on there would lose his state and so now the individual token holders also have an incentive to actually participate in vote because like hell yeah I just got the cute capex data set kicked off and I made so you can start you have to start to play incentive games around different things that people can do and now the holders of the tokens can actually use them to do something they start to gain and if they do a good job because they're incentive us to do so the whole system has a whole growth in value which is good for them because they hold the tokens obviously and they care about it again I'm sort of absolutely lost let's make it very simple so this is a database where persons have incentives to upload data which might have or might not have some value right and the difference is that cute capex don't have any value potential I'm in the context of this specific it was a gamifying procuration of rather informational problem so and how do I lose and how do I read the proposal whatever yeah so this is a part of the bigger system but so this is like how do we get how do you prove the right data sets to be on the system so this would be the context that we like a new token creator registry the shelling point so what this should create from a shelling point of perspective is public transport data cute capex are not public transport data but anyone how do we how do we protect the system to be DDoS so spam to go on there so this should be the best public transport data in the wall because if it's the best list of public transport data then the currency in that list will appreciate so the token holders now want to make the best possible list and so if someone comes in and composes the cute capex he has to stake money to be on there he doesn't money actually yeah so I'm like I want my data to be on the list and then if it's bad data then I'm sorry data's bad and we're taking your stake you had a chance yeah you lose your stake so it's like it's betting against each other and if enough people say no that's wrong we don't need that cute capex then they are removed and all these people get into the world there's a big debate around using this for subjective versus objective data objective obviously works better but as soon as it's like the best restaurant one guy likes it and I think I didn't like it it becomes messiest as soon as you have subjective information what about misunderstanding of data with that cute cat pics cats driving cars no because they would be the next wave of shopping bags, transport goods I don't know people didn't understand my genius idea so how if I upload something people don't misunderstand it and I go away on a holiday so I don't have access to the tool to explain it but it's true that there can be deadlocks yeah there can be deadlocks yeah of course there can be separate cessation port whatever application port to self-help so some design plans in TCO there's already numerous designs around how to just build this one thing so you can have unordered TCOs all types of restaurants unordered TCR the top listings you can have graded TCRs you can have laid TCRs you can have nested TCRs you can have combinatorial TCRs so there's a lot of design thinking already happening in that space and this is from like this is from like July this year so like so this would be a TCR let's say we have different reputation errors in our system we would have noobs at the first rank and then the more time someone spends in the system he gets the second rank and then he gets the third rank and the fourth rank so the other participants in the system curate who is in which rank of the system and then based on that they can have different they can have different rights to do different things in a vertical so as you're also seeing that like in the building blocks in one protocol you can have a protocol that just does reputation and reputation layering and access but maybe you need that as part of something else in your protocol so a lot of moving things you can have nested TCRs which can for example represent browser data structures or decision trees so you have one TCR that links to another TCR which links to another TCR and it just turns into like a radical that was actually the last example in nested TCR are there examples out like the work and people using it or have there been equivalent stuff in web 2.0 world with trust and service there's examples out of this there's a project called Action which is live on the Ethereum which is using a TCR to curate from advertisers so good advertisers and not good advertisers but in an online ad perspective because with online ads it's actually really hard to like filter not an expert on this but like to filter good ads from bad ads and you can get people that pay a lot but it's like really scammy bad ads and so Google has a ton of control in that space probably say they control or I don't know Do you remember like the robots to Romans but it's all you can have like if someone was only making ads about like trade, CFTs like I don't know it's just bad ads What's the name of the ad chain? Ad, ad chain and they have a lot they have an implementation of that so the stuff is being tested just for auction because this is somehow combining the system with the design do you know how Facebook is giving away the slots for ads they're using a great option that is basically you pay when you're the first one I mean you're paying the first one second to you that is something that you this was basically an idea in mechanism design one in the end the normal price so I'm just intrigued to see now how these now seemingly new ideas have compared against those things where you said now about ads do you know who was the guy that won the victory Hickory, have you read Radical Markets? Yeah Have you looked at Radical Markets which is a new perfume that I know well we're just getting a lot of interest which builds exactly on Hickory's Hickory did because it's proposing harbour to taxes which he first came out with which is basically saying you should force a sale when they can't pay a certain tax for it they're not going to get a totally different topic a working example for that option as the theory means although they've changed but it was an option like that DNS cool are you guys ready to go? you guys still ready to go? yeah ok so another big topic is another big topic is token bonding contracts so token bonding contracts and token TCRs are totally different things and so what a token bonding contract does it accepts ad or another token you can replace ad for AC20 with any type of collateral and then what it does it holds that ad for AC20 in a reserve which is the bond and uses in 3D exchange ad for tokens and by versa along the token bonding curve what's really important here no one ever gets the money that is taken in the contract it's not an ICO but the money gets held as a reserve for that makes the market what does it look like so this is a common representation of what it might look like since it's a supply curve so you replace pure token which is the Y axis and the Y axis is bonded to a number of token encirculation which is the X axis so the supply and this would be an example of a quadratic curve so this would actually code this into the smart contract and the smart contract the smart contract would just trade along this curve so you're not trading anymore normally when we talk about trading we have a market and a market basically means you have an order curve with people willing to buy and sell as an asset at a certain point then you know we have a market depth which is like how deep you can buy into the market or sell into the market but that is from a very efficient perspective stock markets have become extremely efficient at that but in in crypto for example you often sell points that have almost no liquidity and that is because no one is willing to buy or sell them because no one really cares about them like there's so many things like this that are zero trading but like so stock market efficiency essentially comes from efficient buying and selling so what this contract does with this new mechanism is it says let's forget about the buyers of the sellers let the contract be the market maker what the contract does is like at any point in time here can you buy it without this price if someone buys in they will send money to the contract and like the price will go from here to here and now you have that part of the supply and people can probably down this curve so it's like very rigid and structured way to price the market and also for the price to go if you think whether it's a very, I find it like a very simple concept just think of it as like money goes in tokens come out tokens go in, money goes out and the price a amount of tokens that you get out change the total amount of tokens so maybe here I would get for $100 I would get $10,000 tokens and here for $100 I would get $5 so the early adopters in the market this is where the attention market is becoming interesting is the early adopters of this market are obviously now proportionately rewarded and so one of the first use cases that this was described in also by Samuel Laboumien was for trading memes I have become like a big phenomenon on the internet over the past 15 years and so like people can actually make money with memes to a certain extent that you get tagged memes and they get retreated and large and share it privately and so it's like this question came I'm going to curate the best memes and why not just have people invest small money into a specific meme and then if you find the meme early and it goes viral then you can always make money with us okay so it's something like it could bring us around the legal issues of ICOs while we create something we just go early on so basically at the moment we can work around the problem of ICOs we just create a code control track buy ourselves some tokens early on and then we have to sing or the idea of flow so we show how good it is and then we buy our e-sign and we can buy real stuff with it and then we did not do an ICO right so is it right or am I just singing warmly so I'm not a lawyer but potentially you could say so normally when you the problem with issuing securities is that we take investors money and so you're fundraising so this is not a fundraising mechanism but it has fundraising implications because remember if you create the meme because I created the meme I'm going to be the first to advise it maybe it's a good meme who knows but if it turns out to be a good meme I can later on send money back send tokens back to the contract and obviously take out collateralizes so it's increasing but essentially no one gets the money that goes into the contract something like curating memes what is the thinking around how do you use a particular curve shape or any other curve shape I think that's where you will need like modeling and simulation yeah it is what you meant like for the modeling crew yeah so I'm going with molecules of course they are a lot different but something that's like relatively abstract like we used to try not this particular sort of version of the master so historically let's say you have a group of people and you're doing a start-up and you want to issue your shares you can draw a curve you can do it by hand and every power of the sprint or the agile sprint is allocated tokens according to the curve it's generally a useful technique I think in how that scales and can be used in many many ways it's just one of the tool pieces I think yeah yeah I'm not sure if I'm missing a piece but like when you say writing in this example memes like it goes viral then the author will make money like if you can't take the money now like this is like similar to the concept of let's say paper paper money or like a certain asset for like 10 years that 10 years you should be rich but since you don't have a curve so if you walk in go to the girly and go out to the lakes you would make money yeah but what is the concept of getting out since there is no the contract takes in money gives out tokens gives out money so it will obviously like I can trade up here and I can trade down here and I can trade up here and trade down here so like this is a constant movement and so the contract takes back tokens reducing the supply in the market and gives out collateral sorry it just grows my wisdom so you don't need to find the buyer for your right the buyer is the contract or the seller the seller is the contract and the buyer is the contract but you can get your money out whenever you want right I mean this is just the most vanilla way to think about this you can introduce a ton of different flavors to start working with this you can have different buy in and sell out there are so many ways to structure this you can have different functions you can have an infinite supply of tokens you can have an infinite supply of tokens you can implement pricing rules you can implement attacks but still there is the time to be component so like these curves in the end are like simulations no there is no time component there is no time because it can move back and forth the other side don't think of this this is a supply curve this is not a stock trading curve this is the bottom axis the x axis is not time that is where people often get confused in terms of thinking oh this looks like a trading chart but it is not perfect so let's say we really like use this to finance new concepts new molecule use it to bring things out to the market what would it mean if you would like to pick bad curves would it be inefficient really good question that is a great concept but you pick a really shitty market so this is like what is the future of it if you need governance I think you will ultimately need some governance functions around this for people to be like sorry this is the most terrible curve so it is similar of like saying if you deploy your ICO then you realize that it was structured in a terrible way not specific so there was a company that needs to use the Dutch auction which they thought was a fancy new model and then using the pricing they raised a lot of money but they only sold I think like 4% of their tokens which now they are sitting on a giant pile of tokens which maybe that is good for them but it is really good for like building the future of that a lot of people got upset so that would be something like if you do it with this then we need governance around this specifically if we don't want to represent concepts like ideas so if you would like have a one curve like with a roof and not done with the development and we are already in this phase where it is like platoeing and we won't cut any amount of money out of it and we are stuck if you put it in the wrong positions what I think with molecular thinking was you could even if you were like yeah and then yeah like thresholds for example it is a limited supply and we are only doing this curve the curve is open for a year I have this new idea, maybe it is good maybe it is totally bollocks but you could say this is a curve and the contract can also only take in 100,000 euros as an example because we don't know if it even makes sense in any way but if people do care they can put in some money and where we created the curve you can take 20,000 euros in funding wow let's do something here you can think of this very iteratively rather than this being like a fixed thing so we can move from one curve to the other also we can be like you know what let's make a new curve for the other okay yeah cool we have certain steps then we are allowed to do another curve so we kind of looked at non-fungible before but I just want to bring my concept back up in terms of like we can now start engineering and meshing things together and so non-fungible tokens were a huge we are thinking about non-fungible tokens you can now attach non-fungible for example to intellectual property to a patent so this is what we are actually doing we are saying let's take a patent which is if it's a chemical patent it's relatively deterministic data so this sense is the Markoosh structure of a molecule and we attach that to a non-fungible so the non-fungible is now we can have like this with all many molecules instead of cryptokitty from a technical perspective it doesn't make that much difference if we say it's a cryptokitty or it's a molecule the blockchain doesn't care on the blockchain no one knows if it's a fridge or a molecule so just going through the use case so this is something called Refungibles which was a concept proposed by Billy Rennecombe in earlier this year so IPA is usually based on patents and timestamp data so what if we take that information and attach it to the NFT but then what we say is we said that it's going to be owned by this and so without that people can trade mentioned in the cryptokitty or in the molecule so it's going to derivative right so what this means is we have this contract owning this contract so now the owner of the cryptokitty so it's going to derivative it's a derivative you could say we don't need this and many projects would say there's no move but what if someone wanted to acquire all of the shares back in the market and get the actual cryptokitty back up so one thing is then if you think about continues what this kind of enables so maybe just some of the things that result from this combination we could do scientific funding with these money curves we now have a price discovery and a market making mechanism for patents or any kind of concept we have a liquidity mechanism so people can actually put liquidity in these things and the creator of the IP can get the liquidity up now people can get funding through this mechanism so anyone can get funding as we just saw by selling by selling tokens back to the market so if I created the market here I sell tokens back to the market and I can get some of the curve out so you always have to see the actual funding in the curve this would be the capital that is in the curve as well so if I go in here I can sell a chunk and kind of get that chunk of capital out and anybody who invested early on can get some liquidity I can sell parts of this curve I can sell this curve I can give you a curve so the thing that actually happens and it's made by the people that have the idea yeah and they help you early on or believe in the concept early on so take place through the King P investment what? could we give you an example so maybe just an example so let's say we are here at this price point this price point is like $100 and down here the price point was like let's say here is like $1 and so this is now literally the supply times the price supply is like my economics and let's say let's say if we here we basically trade areas under the curve yeah so this is the collateral that has been put in the curve so at this point you would have $10,000 let's say these are 100 tokens and you have a price of 100 here so at this point you would pay $100 to get the 100th token and now if you think and this is the collateral that has been staked in because here you have to pay let's say here you have to pay $50 and now since every makes sense for everyone and so even though you are paying $100 here for the 100th token there is $10,000 there is $5,000 in there where is that $5,000 put it in there before okay so basic math why is there only $5,000 in the contract because other people take puts of $5,000 before in there remember here someone is buying the 100 tokens for $100 why is there only $5,000 in the contract $15,000 you just have to see it's basically proportional if it was the whole curve then this would be $10,000 because here it's 100 times 100 that is the area but because people bought along here so that is what is actually in each of these prospects think of it like a board that you can move up and down along the line and there needs to be equal amount of dollars versus the token score and if you take some tokens out $7 score no take some tokens in $7 score maybe I will explain it much simpler, this is the curve and so if there was $10,000 in then this would have been the pricing and the pricing would be linear because here when someone would have made $100 here someone would have made $100 $100 to get in $10,000 because here someone made $1 take a $1 token and then $2 to a token sorry, I was wrong I was wrong this area of the curve we have $5,000 but here you would still the market cap, the implied market cap maybe at this point it would still be $10,000 because that's what people are looking for it's important let's say you have $10,000 tokens here you were the one that bought here you bought those 10 tokens for like $200 maybe at this point and what you did then was you would now sell your token back up here and take out that chunk of the curve the difference with ICO is that in ICO you would throw either at the smart contract and the employer here it's only if the employer put in his early board token but it also makes total sense it makes total sense to buy in if the idea is actually going so okay it is worth nothing but now I can make this worse so I can spend more time can I ask a question what's the mechanism to bring the price up people buying it yeah they buy in assuming that the research is going well yeah but who is providing the results of the research it can be people re-posting the meme on Facebook it could be a clinical trial study being published and people are like oh wow this is actually effective so how many companies do a clinical trial succeed until they go to approval right and they say it works it means I can get rich and then don't give me food and I can also afford to take a lady girl so I can have double surprise for a surprise potentially I mean there's concerns around here but you could use this very effectively in pump and dumps teams which isn't generating concern this is not perfect good finance but how the science comes it comes well this is not about token engineering applications inside but they asked yeah I don't really understand how I can set up some things I press out the token then I get the market price for the first token I will get 100 colors for the second token 99 so it's really important to set up the right right so these markets are constantly influx but I think this will ultimately be like a this will like if you have big markets in there people are going to trade them on secondary exchanges so you'll have secondary trading because it's going to be inefficient to trade with this big thing what he's saying is if you have 10 tokens and you have a price of 100 let's say 100 dollars when that first token is off the price will come you're not getting necessarily 100 let's say you sold 3 tokens and and then you'll probably get like you would maybe only get let's say 295 dollars out even if you hit the sell price depending on where you are other people are in fact going to contract can you say when you compare it with the market and you said like pump it's susceptible to pumping down relatively why is it more or less susceptible to pumping down than just using the markets I can't see just because it can be more susceptible because again this totally depends on what you're actually trading but you could just have a lot of interest in here and more and more people start the people know that if I buy in if I'm the first to buy in and people buy off me then I'm already making money and so it creates this like this like you know I can say model curve for example maybe certain regions of the curve would be more prone to pumping down but others would be relatively protective I make that summary I'm rough with my economics 20 years ago so that you talked about price discovery and price discovery right and this is a new way of toolkicks purely like new frontier in learning but but the other side of it is price signaling and when you have been here like we have in the financial markets we have these extra you know the crazy world will live in but this is now giving us an ingredient I'm not sure it's the right ingredient but it could be an ingredient to do price signaling which is really this which is the science of economics but whether that's the world we live in today scarcity is a bigger question but I think it's giving an environment for price signaling to be genuine but whether this is we'll find out as experiments come through absolutely so we cannot imagine you put it out there but you don't have to mean to do the idea because I'm really excited about it and and then you sell I don't know but at least there will be others other people in the market will get it but even if you're like shit well I created the idea but y'all can have it I'm gonna go live on an island sell and then that's actually great someone in my family and I can't work on this idea anymore so I'm just giving whatever I own back to the market and cool well I've taken some of the capital out but I've also just given other people the opportunity to there should be a punishment system if you don't deliver you have to give back all the gains that you made because you were complaining about it and then you went on an island or somebody this totally depends on what you actually use it for and then depending on what you use it for it's why I actually like the memes thing because it's very innocent like cool trade tension in memes if you can make money out of it and people want to pump memes and the memes go viral because they get shares imagine if you had to bring any investor in the memes but it also I don't know if I'm going to find out the question that I think also a lot of people are forgetting about this what are these tokens now actually used for not yet but like so these are like when you think of like engineering things in the super system together it's like now we have a way to measure attention in something and so the token that I know of would that give me a posting right to post the memes or in our case we are using this to trade to trade the IP so you own a share in the IP which the token that that uses is a security there's not a security in the sense of like I'm selling securities to raise funding I'm selling a share in the IP which is also interesting and legal area to in a real stock there are two parts to the price one of them is the speculative part because if you have attention to it the fundamental part is the actual company doing it in here and how the company is doing it is based hopefully on sound financial engineering that people can verify but here it's IP that people can verify a lot of the claims being made unless you have the mechanism and access to laboratories to believe of course but that's how the system works today but today the IP is centered in one company and that's where a lot of the problems come from and IP moves very slowly but IP at valuation is a big thing acquisition of patents is a huge thing companies only acquiring patents because they think that this is the value and so you have real metrics there to value markets so if we said for example let's say by this point clinical such insights might come through and so we can evaluate if that is positive then the market could be here and the total market value of that patent if it gets approved by the FKA is going to be x billion because this market can serve this many consumers but then here we're not talking about different laboratories providing information about the IP being developed because not everyone would have the capability of doing this it's basically us speculating on the value of S&A IP probably yeah yeah this doesn't keep the company who owns the IP for example from raising traditional financing we can always say let's say we're keeping 30% of this market and then we're saying cool but now we have an equity pool we can constantly get if people invest in the IP because let's say we keep 30% of the market and then we say and then people say it more and more so then what the curve would actually look like we would look like this we say this is our share and here it starts and then people have buying and bought it up until here and here we say cool let's sell this amount that we have and take as much capital and we use that for funding and the other reason that we can still do is we can say we have this much and we go and people start buying in so there's a tension now we have validation market validation for what we're doing and then we go to a PC and we say cool guys you want exposure to our stake by giving us equity financing at 20% and thus by virtue of us owning these tokens you get exposure to that market can I explain in a way that I'm crowdsourcing by initial research for IP because we can make money by funding my own IP but this means that big companies will still dominate because they have a giant head start that is a company they just have massive amounts of capital but this gives them this democratizes us from what we have today because no big company basically diversifies maybe the funding sources for an IP company or for a clinical trial company you know what instead of relying on one machine or one investment now we get crowdsourcing that's how I see it that's how I see it that's my question okay so okay come again so okay okay okay so so to understand how we work in practice so I was Peter Higgs and I put my idea of the Higgs bosom there I don't know if each bosom has a patent because IP the value of IP lies in its commercial you have a whole conversation about whether people should have IP anyway and that IP as a patent is a bad thing in a real world with real commercial applications and real economics we need that today if one of those is real then we need to operate so I don't know anything about what you're talking about but what you could say for example I have this commercial application and I'm using the Higgs bosom for us and the IP is tied to that so if you invest in this you might have exposure to the future you can tell me about that you can say t-shirts with Higgs bosoms I mean you can use them as a trademark I think there's an interesting mind space can we use it to fund concepts and ideas maybe but it has very big it's like can we maybe maybe the current world is pretty the current world is pretty pretty bird species didn't change from the wolf I think it's better to use a more commercialized thing if I get you right no you don't know anything about that it's more important why not to use ideas to fundennes anyone ideas ideas and ideas the back that you made in your with sir and that's why I want you to talk to us you have a great idea I am not telling anyone about it Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Gatsby, what's the promise that the students have already stole in three of our concerts? For winter, yeah. I want more. Seriously, I want more. I think that's going to be a period. Right now, we're going to have a concert. I'm going to have an idea. It was quite on the go. No, no, no, no, no. I'm going to hit this chastise. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, Sarah, can you write your name? Oh, no. Can you write your name, too? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to wait for this for a few clocks. I might not have the chance. Well, that's a good question. I have to catch my plate. I'm going to catch my plate. We're going to have a concert. No, no, no. I'm just saying, I'm going to catch my plate. Yeah. after everything is like this yeah yeah yeah we have an event during the next three so i just wonder what idea she had about space we look more at the more like the summer care about the monorail together with her because i really want to like really really really behind from my country coming and put me over the field after after the compressing and i work with ocean like it's just for for my crew yeah thanks for the for the parking and uh for the for the for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking for the parking For instance, I care about the quality. I care about the family society. I care about the... ...the data, etc. So that we don't have as much time aside from this environment. So not only are you potentially weighing in on what you have to buy, but these are the prices that you're also weighing in on the importance of your efforts in the U.S. side. It's a very, very hard problem. And you cannot close it. The original idea was that we want to bring in the actual evidence. Yes, because then you can do other things. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a positive to open in some other papers. I have some patents. I think it's amazing that actually I've opened it. Yeah, so... Yeah, it's an example of an example of people who want to like just employ a second smart contract. For example, he said he could make this better. The point is that people can just like employ a second smart contract with a slight variation of failure. And just buy their items, like the very cheapest stock in the world. So maybe an economy that will prevent us. Sometimes I need to convert some of those similar ideas into a hundred and one. Yeah, one of them might come. Yeah, when you've got my problem for you, you can say like, well, it's more difficult, like you rely on the things that people will like. It's the most original idea. Because they have more things to employ a second smart contract. Because you realize, yeah, it's a situation on it. And I believe that this idea is supposed to buy the top of the second trade. And you go, oh, this one already has a problem. For the other people, they can mostly think of the idea before. Maybe it's better for people that just buy them the top of the best. But you don't know, because sometimes it's like... I guess we're made in China for people. And I've said it before. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. And you make two people that want to see this. Almost the same. Maybe you might as well make two people that want to see this. Maybe it's okay because... Maybe it's okay because... Yeah, maybe it's okay. So we just... Yeah, so you don't think much about this. I don't have a smart contract for this. Yeah, I think it's like... So she's actually... So she's actually... I don't think it's... I don't think it's... I don't think it's... Seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I really want to. That's a long time. Okay. Okay, cool. Just like having on the right arm. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. These are real people. This is like earlier, I think, for sure. I mean, you are 20 or 30. And there are a lot of things we can play around doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. Perfect. The good economy for the school to compromise. We should have one good economy compromise to compromise. It's like the best country for all. There is absolutely much more to compromise. I'm not excited, you know? I'm not excited. Everyone is excited. Yeah. They don't have to know your data. They are just looking at it in motion. And it's interesting. We can work for both. We have to move. Yes, let's try intensification. Yeah, that's exciting. Huh? The ball? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see. Does he have a comment for us? No, he's like, working on it on that. On the monitor, like, incentivizing development, and like, uh, including a device or molecule. It's a specific state of molecule, and it's a big structure, so it's not an abstract idea, right? So it's more specific. But this is like a big dream for any kind of problem, right? Yeah, on the nine-house perspective, so if you have some money, you might as well share something with your father. Uh, he must think of something. In fact, there's all seven days, one hour to explore it, one thing, uh, one hundred four years is very simple. In fact, there's all seven days, one hour to explore it, one thing, uh, one hundred four years is very simple. In fact, there's all seven days, one hundred four years is very simple. And then again, there's all seven days to explore it, this is not even the best thing. Um, you just have to take this up, everything it takes, and maybe explain it to people. So it's, you know, one hundred four years is very simple. But if you take something like this one, you're not going to be able to draw it. But if you take something like this one, you're not going to be able to draw it. Uh, so, I'm going to teach you, We have to get to the platform and it wasn't as though it was a couple lines of arguments or something like that. So if you have two lines of arguments and one, you are not the problem. So, and the thing is that you have to seculate it, that would be the translation. Yeah, this is the same. So, but one thing is like Paul said, it's a component that is full of negative results. It's wrong. Sorry, but you can shorten it. You can shorten it. Hello? You can shorten it to short. I can also shorten it to long. This, as you have told me, will fail. Because I know that there's not going to work because of this. I'm going to short. I'm going to short it to, for example, that Turkey will never plan to work. And then I'm not going to study on how it's going to work. I know that this is a numerical record that you cannot, you have to explain to your audience how it's going to work. We didn't know it was going to work. We didn't know it was going to work. We didn't know the shorting part. You can say what's going to happen. We're not going to publish until the process is over. Then we're going to short. The other one is to short a lot at different places. Hey, guys. I'm back. I'm just waiting. I'm just waiting for the internet. There are three more pizzas coming. We can eat while... No, no. Let's get a carve. A carve. We're allocating the pizza. I got you. Also, almost at the end of the talk, I couldn't have made this shorter, but it always depends on how much people are actually interested in it. And so, I mean, going back to this base principle of creation, this base principle of the creation markets, when we think about how innovation happens and how different things can develop, so this is the typical process that you have in drug discovery. So you have discovery phase, and then you have pre-technical studies. You have phase one, phase two, phase three, clinical trials. In each phase, you produce more data about something. If you would think about this more generally about innovation of ideas. So then in the beginning you end up with a lot of ideas, and then you actually define projects and drive them towards something. So if we use these concepts as a whole, we can create earliest markets for things and actually have the crowd curate and create data about what is effective and what not. So I think that's just maybe predicting this perspective. Just one more practical example of like what's a curve like this could look like. So we are looking at using something like six curves which are kind of an S-shaped curve. But also like you would have, you would ideally have like different stages at different, yeah, at different development stages. So that's one curve to look at. What could this look like then if you map it out? So this now kind of goes into like a time function, but not really. So you would have like drug discovery phase which is super super early. Like the drug is probably worthless. And the pre-clinical may prove that the drug is actually worth something. Then clinical one, this is where the largest amount of money has to be invested and clinical two, and kind of map this. So this would be over the whole innovation cycle of getting a drug improved to market. You can see approval and commercialization. It's like almost even out. So this would be one way to map and think about this from a more practical perspective. This market would also probably be highly inefficient. Like what if you find out something about the asset here and it changes what the entire market starts to look like. That's kind of like an example. Then we kind of looked at this how do you award the IP creators? So you have a creator steak that let's say someone a steak in they're supposed to have a IP. You then have a creator steak that the creator gets. And then at a later point you can sell a part of that back from the curve. So it's important to get funding out for this concept. Cool. Maybe just like two cool things. Because I have two guns so I'm just kind of rushing through the end of this. Is this like feasible? Yeah, there is actually live applications on the mainnet and on the net that are using this. One of them is a game for crypto against humanity. I'm sure most of you know they're part of the game. They combined it was a hackathon thing. They combined they combined TCRs so to create listings of interesting cards and other side bonding curves. So cards that are traded for using bonding curves. So I think they're black cards. It would be like I'm making a a bonding curve for a white curve and people can buy it if it's a good curve. And the black cards are curated by a list. So this is live. Another really cool one please try it out. This is actually like a live market that another team built so it's a meme trading market so anyone can upload their meme. The meme gets hashed. It's stored in IDFS and then you have different meme listings and you see the price and you see the amount of tokens in that market and you can buy and sell the meme. And so then this is what the trading just the trading side of this looks like it's just like a meme bonding of the hackathon and people are broken and so you buy in at a specific point in the curve and more collateral gets staked on. Is it the camp? I don't think so. It would just get really really expensive at some point to buy a new market. Yeah. These are just like table implementation but I think it's a lot actually I think if you were really like oh I'm going to use this in my project that's still a while away. I want to use this in my project. I think that real world implementation will still be a while away. We'll need a lot of extra implementation along the lines of this to really get this market anywhere. You can either download it on the testnet or test for a long time and then check if this is one of those on the testnet no one's going to use it or like very few people use it. You can simulate. So I have like you can like play for like two days you can have a workshop and just like play around and be bad actors as well and she knows and copy cats and see what's happening. But yeah, so maybe from an implementation perspective like it's still it's a really cool mechanism but there is a lot to figure out and it's still very early days and so we need more of like memes and other things I think for people to experiment with before getting deeply into like or like also getting like super excited about like this being like a new way to change everything it's like it'll be because it's potentially a much better way to issue tokens and to engineer very cool token economics it's also a much more difficult thing to figure out because to defy a curve like this if you want to make it right because we had that question before like oh what if you make the wrong curve and then if you really attach it to like a legal asset it kind of ruins the entire thing so the same way that a bad valuation round a bad funding round could ruin a company because no investors want to get in after maybe it was totally overvalued it came out of the hype now the company can't raise anymore and then it goes back up so bad financial engineering for like start a bad valuation round can be just similar like failure as for example the contact creator also being like oh I'm going to put myself 60% and then oh well no one wants to do a thing then because and so it's finding all of these metrics and has anyone worked out like aspects of like potentially dynamic curves or is that in some ways defeat the purpose to have actual dynamic changes yes there's some work there's some work on dynamic curves which is like looking at individual pricing depending on what way you bought in which didn't make sense to me there's some other work on like dynamic sell prices I haven't heard of that but doesn't this turn into a prediction it is it's aching similar to a prediction but a prediction market is not from the point of view it's not from the point of view I think what is better is a price discovery mechanism but it will only be price but also only to discover if it's a fair market where people think it's fair and if it's a marketing that is structured in the right way and so but isn't this how you structure structure options because you also put them on a curve over time it's exactly the same but then you can make money depending on how you design your future now my question is if you or the curve is implementing a system like how it's fixed sorry I just told you if you're implementing something like this are you able to design a curve where you as a platform make money you could but as soon as you put that platform you're thinking and you're also introducing friction yes so you as a worker maybe you want to make money yes so are you going to make money by investing on every single curve all capital is inherited give off no but I had another inside of flash there maybe the good thing about this is that eventually this is a fast forward that you don't mind actually if you deploy it and then you invest in all the good ideas so you don't need to like have a the thing where all the token stuff to me doesn't really apply many times it always implies that oh but then we are going to have this token and x percent will be used to maintain the platform imagine ultimately the best way to measure the externality that we cannot measure that's always what happens on this kind of discussing is if you could just do something and a lot of people agree that it's good for society then it's everyone will benefit but still in the sense you can just and if you personally think it's a good idea you just be an early investor and also profit a lot I don't know you're building an infrastructure that that in itself creates a gain in value and you don't have to have an Uber business model or an Airbnb and that's kind of the thing with molecule there isn't like this clear idea where you like you can actually maintain the model but yes I mean you can you know I guess even again two points for molecules there might be old teams that are coming and starting to work on tools to look at all these molecules that are proposed now in the marketplace and figure out which ones to really bet on more than others if you create that ecosystem and it works well a lot of people are interacting with it there will be a lot of ways to potentially make money you missed it I'm still 30 seconds behind I said for the last 30 seconds okay you want to reach out feel free to send me an email maybe as an addition to this discussion maybe Martin if you want to come forward so that's kind of the what we learned but I love to zoom in in the section right so that we have the post it on the telegram channel and it's a relationship are you hungry yeah share your ideas okay so my idea pretty much is thinking back on what I think a very very easy way to understand how the mechanism works in the background and basically it goes around here like what do you think is the most valuable public lecture in the world a public lecture the most valuable valuable with monetary value but I would argue it's the patent system it's public it needs to be public and it's just a lecture that's like the organizations that take care of this lecture do it very very very very cool very cool so in reality I think less than 3% of our patents never make any money so they basically give you a patent you have drawn money at lawyers and that's exactly what you need they're nothing else nobody will ever read your information nobody will build there are obvious exceptions but the bulk of the information is just lost it's not built we have the science community it has a peer review system and basically the patent system it's very replaced in peer reviewers with lawyers yeah it's a very long process of argumenting forward backward this is like this and it should be cut this is not novel it takes like 3-4 years for a patent you fight with lawyers they give you paper work that doesn't link to anything before basically they create their wall garden and cash out on it but you can view it as it is a public lecture that should be curated by someone you should know that these patents are rare and I should be interested in them but nobody really does that if you are a company and you are looking for patents in your region it's very hard for you to find out these are the hot cons that I should probably look into and maybe see if I can incorporate it into my business this kind of service I'm not sure it exists there's a big problem with the patents for me is that when I read my patents I don't know what I actually have it's a very simple thing you need to write it for the lawyers not for the end so you have a difficult innovation that can be probably summed up in two sentences and then the lawyer is coming and you have an understandable requirement and they don't understand it but you are telling them in the beginning it's all out this later we will just write a check of they don't understand what is in this space and they don't understand what they need to put these safeguards so your patent is protected against similar things so what they do is probably highly complex but I don't think it's really useful so the system really has a lot of routine program so what I would like to build is basically create a I don't know if you remember Eurika token it's basically doing something very similar for research Eurika just take what they are doing and replace the current balance system with that and the idea we have to go and the idea that this is probably how it should work and this is how it should work and that it actually is implemented the idea is to create a very simple token that is used to indicate interest in ideas and the idea is to create a public ledger of all technical knowledge, like actionable knowledge things that you can do how things work what you can do with it and here that has assigned ownership and you go from there you have a patent somewhere and you know that you have a license and a licensing fee so you know how much they are paying it and you as a user of the platform can say that I want to become a partial owner of that idea and I get a chunk of it so this creates a set of incentive systems people are you have this giant tree of knowledge and people are incentivized to go through it identify pieces that could be applied in real world and be valuable to your company and if you do that correctly then you get a chunk of your revenue that the company actually pays for the patent so it's a way to replace the balance system with a token curated hierarchy and how it really works in the background or my idea is for the simplest to improve the performance so you get it issued as a basic income if you are part of the community that has been agreed to be part of the curators and if you get accepted in you get a token and your responsibility obviously is a basic income and you have a couple of thousand users and each second each person generates a token so it's very inflationary and if you want the token to reward anything you need to burn it correctly so if you burn it for the right ideas then you get a chunk of the reward revenue of the company that uses the idea if you burn it for useless ideas then burn the token you can hope that in 10 years there will be a technical way to make that idea valuable you may make money later but it's basically a way to indicate which in which direction research should go and you know that it's a hierarchy so you know that there is physics, biology and money flowing into biology but basically I'm currently waiting for my co-founders to go through all the stuff and we hope to form something soon but it's currently very realistic so yeah so any questions so like in regard to the previous tag it's basically it's a kind of a bonding chord a slight twist on it because if you have an asset and you know that before you burn some token so you can buy the asset from any of those and if nobody of those wants to sell them you can burn additional tokens and you deal with their ownership and you collect your ownership so it's like a bonding chord that's but only up and if you want to go back down then you have to find markets sellers what do you mean by burning you basically it's one way for the token yeah you exchange an asset token you have this time currency that's like the corp you get it issued over time you don't have to do anything and if you want to exchange it for an asset token you have the option you can trade it directly to someone who is really interested or you can burn it and if you burn it then you take ownership from everyone who is currently on the bonding if you delete their ownership you basically create new shares of the asset but you can't like get the shares back for R but you can trade the shares so basically you attach your freely basic tokens to a concept and so they are constrained because they only relate to this concept or idea or service or whatever and like but if you want to be doing it only good decisions on the market then you put it on the next one so we have 3 euro and then we paint it yellow if you believe on space flight and maybe I get some more Coca Cola for it it's the next stop for the normal euro yeah yeah I mean you could argue it's a less asset with these time based currencies for every ID that is written on the play platform it's kind of you are playing in the sandbox of a safe environment it's not ethology put in yeah so it's basically like you can imagine it like it's a pool of IP that and all the participants that contribute to create and improve the pool of the IP share there are some real world applications of the IP and all the licensing costs are shared among the users that are participating in this project so you are kind of incentivized to get quality people in and you don't want to get everyone initially maybe if the system would prove to be stable on the right scale maybe argue that it can be like an economic on basis for like a society where you evaluate like right now the basic you go to the shop you see a number attached to a commodity and the number is in a currency but if this system would really work stable the number would be associated with time so you would have a rough estimate how much time it is worth to own that community and that's something that is still subjective because everyone values this time individually but it's like semi-objective and it will forever be do you want to ask something yeah so there are a few projects I guess I don't know all of them in detail interested in IP and how this whole journey from ideas to IP can be reached up yeah if I just look at those three projects and what you just presented there and this range of techniques one of them is to use this economic market oriented which is the simplest kind of token and that's people who just gamble test and play there that's the way to do it that's the way it comes out of people who are trained to think in an economic way then there is the aspect of the quality of the interaction that people do in their knowledge work so for instance like Dave is the project which is in the same sort of space but what they're interested in is how do we take the activity of generating knowledge by scientists that activity to give the signals in this whole process of moving from an idea to a patent if you like and then the other idea that we were just talking about here with these terminated lists and all of these sorts of is together with the market idea it has the sort of risk danger of tokenizing every single most mental process in the creativity of knowledge creation so instead of what you might have which is a group of scientists with tenure sort of instability sharing in an ideal scenario sharing and discussing ideas they're thinking if I put this token and this investment on early that market signal that's what I do so a lot of creativity comes out of creating a culture of people where the communication exchange that they have captures the knowledge to me and one of the dangers of these tokenization schemes that we mentioned earlier is that if you just think simple economics only without strong the group of scientists you don't do a good job of catching creativity now there's a whole bunch of science on those incentive structures being good for non-knowledge based non-creative repetitive works, the economic instances but not for getting a bunch of people with completely different cultures together and the traditional colleges and economics and putting them together and getting them to somehow communicate and talk and share values and the motivation and the sort of work that comes out of that culture to be best done without this form of gamification and tokenization so there isn't a question there so I'm just going to stop just to answer that you can view it you can view this game and the gamification and try to hunt for the best idea that some people like to do it some people have done it most people fail at it so like if you are an innovator you can use it just you publish some of your ideas there you can accept it because the community thinks you have somebody and you just take the basic income and sell it at market value every month and you have a passive income and you don't have to play any of the games somebody could buy your mind tokens from you and if he is interested in these games he will do it so that's how it works like it I understand how it works the question is does it destroy the culture of creativity like I think the current system is like actively destroying it in a way which we don't understand so what we have right now is it's actively destructive and what I'm proposing is maybe destructive sorry I take the name but his point is also the question is what kind of they were sculptures would like to bind to this concept and actually use it it is really more fundamental to maybe the strengths of using blockchain in science or in knowledge creation is in the ability to structure and design new forms of collaboration so new forms of teamwork solutions get in the way of that but markets don't help so it might provide the background that enables the evolution of new institutions but I need to wait but the idea here is that by giving people this like diamond everybody will view it as fantasy like it's basically playing fantasy stock market like you have fantasy football so you have like just people interested in stuff they will start investing in ideas and the effect is that if people think that one idea is interesting and they think it's interesting enough that they put money in you created a list of people who are interested in that idea but if you try I mean I've tried that several times and what tends to happen is you get a very specialised subset of people turning up and playing they're not very creative people either so for instance if you do I can think several at this multiple times that I try to introduce currencies into creative projects and it really puts off and demotivates a huge sector as some of the most idea as soon as you do if I have emotional problems doing it people have huge numbers of problems doing it I'm here because I do these currencies things like that but I'm saying if you just have that market idea trying to improve the process you won't be able to screw it up you really have to understand people human beings and how they work in a much more rounded way if you want to embed markets into a creative knowledge economy I completely agree with you Dave that we have to look at the incentive structure and what we imply and what's happening but it's happening right now we have currencies of citations we have reputation somehow like our number of abstracts except that it's just like very messy everything and then we have this high overhead patent system and there's a lot of lawyers overhead and everything so we are doing something like that in a very messy messy way we have institutions so we have the capability of reforming those and obviously we have huge potential to really improve on those with these tools the point I'm making is that trying to just bring in market thinking purely and solely by itself destroying completely the value of energy this is why the narrative is that we still have this tenured professor crazy professor just doing open bonding crafts to pay their debt to have a mortgage that's what's being said oh ok yeah there aren't any such structures that mediate between the market and the incentives and the soft culture of intellectual development I've seen one of the things you can say that has happened to science it also happened to things like media and the BBC is with the increase of metrics and the increase of market in that you destroy a lot of the historical creative cultures yeah and that is something that is very tangible at the same time better markets enable the evolution of new forms of creativity so it's not as simple like markets are good and cultures bad I wouldn't overestimate the value of the historical structures because I think it still holds true that science progresses one funeral at a time yeah the use case is like the tenured professors get together this debate and change their mind and it doesn't happen in a real disaster network they die with their ideas and then the young people take over so that's how it happens in science really most of the breakthroughs happen when scientists get some basically freedom they pursue what they want can I take this as a finish line and I want to show you something to inspire you so let's have as much as the nation markets for all scientists yeah let's let's just shoot some let's do something really useful so the idea and it's like this is the second round we're doing this we had been a couple of us already a couple of months ago I think the discussion and the community now is getting more and more mature and like the one thing that always fascinates me that I wish always to have is the idea of this idea conference as soon as I saw it right what we're doing now is that we do it and we talk basically about staff and the really relaxed environment that is completely crazy at the moment but may need in the future to really something very exciting and we're creating a field you know about this event in the molecular biology that is basically like a couple similar things and what we are doing is we look at these photos first thing we realize is there's very few women on the pictures about 25% and that's what we have but in general it was like two but the other thing is that basically at this first conference that was the Asiloma conference it was when the recombinant DNA became like scientists became aware that the recombinant DNA technology is a potential threat that's also for society and they were also debating how to deal with that, what are the rules and the ethics that we are putting behind this and and then the nature of these type of meetings was that the people actually they came together and then they were gathering in small groups they were also discussing different things and I think that's a very cool way of moving the field forward and this is what rarely happens I mean there are these cool conferences but it's not what we normally are used and I think this is a cultural change that would be amazing to see getting back in science and why not what I had for this field of blockchain and move into a scientific actually and all these cultures we are seeing is that said, there's one important thing about these events that is we need to have proper documentation because it helps to start spreading from a nuclear group to a large amount of people so that will impact also to society, okay and so the goal and that's actually our task so recording this to decide whether this recording we are doing right now we should be released at some point I think it could be useful but I want to leave here like we are taking anyone's decision here into account and our opinion so that said, so now for this afternoon we have time to continue with our conversations but maybe there are many of these threats that people would like to pick up and go deeper in one concept we could go ahead with this is a kind of World Cafe style so that actually what we learned in CERN but they never saw the results so that would mean that we will define a few topics now that you feel strongly about and you want to keep discussing and then we spread, we have even our second room, we serve to this building and you know we can go to the sofas and spread this area very conveniently and then at these small groups ideally have a single note taker that's going to write the things that are being made or that you think are important to go deeper in the future in this shared document and then the work that I will be doing is to collect this and then we are going to type stamp it with beta Gibbs tool and so the authors are kind of there and that's a proof of origin and then from there ideally we can have an increasing number of people inviting to join and spread this right so maybe what I can do is to to ask you what would be topics and you propose them to me what you would like to discuss and I collect it and then and then we can make form chapters where that is taken why this I'm like yeah the data ecosystem or infrastructure data so that's okay, so that really is back to what we talked about yesterday I would be interested in discussing about whether the data storage capabilities in the near future because right now if we say most of the data we can't put it but where the technology is going and what can we expect for the near future about how much data can we put in there what is optimal yeah, trade goes well I would be interested in actually discussing what you are in fact guys you probably don't have schemes or compromise there right of course indexing of scientific achievements so this is something that I would definitely use you're hired special scientific advisor you have a great power yeah what else crypto financing or what we talked about today these token bonded stuff so token just to follow up on what you were saying how damaging will they be in the way of the innovation process token bonded what we can call them token bonded contracts in payments I'm interested because different people are getting different tools I'm interested in interusability of our tools you can take my images to your tools just to be able to interchange instead of closing everything we talked about open sizing but we don't use each other's tools so that's just data related all those tools are driven by data real practical usage I have my software get up I'm about to use a bunch of this stuff that's one of the limitations like it was all the way up to the user experience yeah, really practical stuff David was talking about graphics and user interfaces and that could be crucial for us if you want to convey what's really going on here to the normal person on the street so that could be I didn't understand your topic my point is that do you want to in Sandex? no, no, no to make versions reality exactly, so we are developing different tools in different places there's good stuff here, how can we combine all of these together I noted that open bonded contracts practical implementation and impact pros and cons keep in mind we cannot have 17 groups so we have data ecosystem infrastructure which I'm honestly thinking could go together with the proposal of indexing of scientific achievements unless I do you think that makes sense then we would have three and then you were kind of keen to be special really it was a proposal of margin I have to honestly I put this so then we would have three kind of topics although honestly it looks like two topics because the storage capabilities and the storage and this would tie it also in terms of infrastructure one last topic would be we are doing this but I'm still wondering overall discreet experimental implementation let's say building a house let's imagine we are building a house and the house is this field that we are here talking about which is kind of a mix of theory of science and then all fields together maybe that's the introduction or later but you know let's I just I'm sorry but can we do it maybe then we finance the curve like imagine we put the idea out and then each of us buys in very early and then there will be 15 institutes and then we go to this island where it is can we do that one but seriously then without the laugh to me the technique of collaborating together you talk very graphically about tool sharing I think it's really there are reasons why the groups aren't collaborating as well as they could it's as simple as that and some of it is just let's talk about what file format to use that's the sort of symptom the incentive structure of house building we are going to build a house and we will own it together and these people get this and these people get that and then they are hacking and someone gets pissed off and is storming out the roof that is the topic that I would like to discuss how do we collaborate to build something together given that every single one of us in the room is not big enough to do this job or might have different interests and incentives I see all of us I see all of us here, I see them and tools stuff but quite a lot to do with how productive we work together to build this house so I said the first topic in the document chapter to build a new house You take techniques of collaboration, and indexing of scientific achievements with the sub-ecosystem and infrastructure and scaling challenges, and then the last one would be token-bonded contracts. Because I mean, that's what happens with patents. That's what you call a moniker. You could have claims. Claims. Yeah. Honey rock. You know, of science. Yeah. Cool. And like what can happen is that around these topics, maybe now and when I'm doing the G-Doc, it takes me five minutes, you take a coffee break, and then I send it to all of the email addresses, and one of us in the rooms can be a note-taker or anyone can write in there, and we go as far as we go today. That's it. And then we keep going. And then it's this reform. There's all these terms. How does it go all down? Yeah. More elaborative innovation then. Or peer-based production. Comments-based peer production. CMPP. Where else? Can you add a few words? What do you mean by then we continue going? Because that's normally the thing that's about to happen. Exactly. True. So that would be... Exactly. But so ideally you would define, like the group itself would define milestones, or maybe a check-off, let's say a week from a month or whatever. Yeah. So a bit again, I mean, this is inspired by all of this, and you guys know what it's about, I guess. Again, the polymath approach of... Actually, I don't know if you've studied it, I just went to all governments, models of the Ethereum Foundation. The EERP proposes the polymath and all of this, quite interesting. And they have a very rigid structure. It's not that we are in a super-flat network. There's very strict rules. And some are, like, if we give you the counter-intuitive, but not practical anymore. But, okay, going along this, one of the rules that they put in the data is that you are not supposed to spend weeks working inside without having the other share your insight that you're having, but you are trying to just add a little bit of an idea, a piece. It can be a keyword, a link to something. So in this type it can grow, and then someone might feel invited to now ram it up a bit. Let's see how it goes. I mean, the other thing is we are staying in contact through the email as well, and then we can see whether this organization works. I mean, in Zürich's example, it's an open document about its project for science, where maybe we can copy a lot of stuff. Definitely two or three people have done probably 90% of this work, if you can see the most, can happen at its line. Okay. It's an experiment. But it's kind of a new type of paper we are writing because we are not discussing in which journal. The highest impact factor, of course. Oh, yeah. Do you want to tell us the space history of the group? Yes. Okay. We have this group of people. Yeah. Maybe another group will be on ranking algorithms or recognition systems. I don't know if that's part of the game. I think that's part of the game. Yeah. Let me have a paper. I don't know if it's interesting. Yes. Okay. I think it's so powerful. It is. I don't think it helps. Okay. Okay. A chart. What did I say? I don't know what to say. Okay. What did I say? Okay. Okay. Yes. That's it. So you don't have any room to be here? You can just say it's all here. You can see the insertations. I think you're just going to say it's all here. That's not legal, right? What is all the insertations? I'm not writing them all up tonight. So we're going to basically publish like several. Of course, all the money is in my case. I think all the money is in my case. I think all the money is in my case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's actually that it just came up several times. I think we've just already published three pages that are all option for pages. And then, then you just... then you just... so that's the number. So this is basically the set up. So you're just saying... Is that in your... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So when you want to start, then you want to start. I think it's pretty much the same. Yeah, I mean, you can do a lot of such a certain thing. Yeah, I don't know if she's able to see the results. Yeah, I'm wondering. It's not your idea, but I'm by her. Yeah, I'm by her. And then... So... I've got the idea that you can... I've got the idea that you're gonna... I've got the idea that you're gonna... I've got the idea that you're gonna... Yeah, you don't have to get anybody to do anything about it. Ah, I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I know that American countries, and that's the answer to your question. I've been to three countries and I've been to a lot of them. I've been to a lot of countries and I've been to a lot of them. It's pretty boring, but I also have a little bit of a experience with it. How do we deal with that now? I don't know, perhaps. I don't know, perhaps. Yeah, we think so. So, um... Oh, yeah.