 Good morning and welcome. Thank you everyone for joining us for this morning's session on mainstreaming ecopreneurs. We'll spend the next 45 minutes or so sort of defining what that means, talking about some of the innovations that we're seeing, particularly in the climate tech sector. And my name's Suzanne DiBianca. I'm the Chief Impact Officer at Salesforce. And I'm joined today by an incredible panel that I'll introduce briefly and then we'll get into the conversation. So to my left is the Honorable Prince Max of Liechtenstein, chair of LGT and founder of Light Rock. To his left is Pullman Low, who is the chair of the Royal Hotel Group. You have so many jobs when I was researching you. It's really incredible. All connected to sustainability. All connected to sustainability. Also founder of the Alpha Trio Capital Fund and many more things I hope that you'll get into. To her left is, excuse me, Rebecca and Rebecca is an incredible entrepreneur out of the Netherlands who you'll hear her story of the incredible organization that she's founded working on nature restoration. And finally to her left is Professor Arun Magendur who is the founding dean of the Stanford School for Sustainability, the John Dorr School. It's been about a year in the making, I believe. Has an esteemed career in energy, working both for the US government and for Google for some period of time. So I think we cover sort of a vast range of expertise in this area. And I thought a good place to start would be sort of a definition of eco-pronorship. What does that mean? How are people operationalizing it in their various roles? And Prince Max, I thought I'd start with you as someone who really kind of grew up in the traditional financial asset space at JPMorgan for many years and then at LGT. And I'm curious about the shift that you've made into impact investing and how you think of eco-pronorship. And I know LightRock is not specific to climate tech. It's one part of what you do. But I'd love to hear how you're thinking about it and what you're excited about. Well, I might be the wrong person to ask that question because when I read eco-pronorship, I think I probably read it for the first time. I mean, so, you know, so having said that, of course, I'm incredibly passionate to address climate change. And the broader setup for doing that comes out of LGT, which is a private banking and asset management business. We manage about 350 billion in assets and management. And it's a 100% sort of family-owned business. And at some point, we decided to set up a philanthropic effort that is called LGT venture philanthropy that in its initial sort of purpose was meant to invest capital in organizations that create positive impact on different dimensions, including climate change. And we invested both in for-profit organizations, trying to be catalytic, but also in non-for-profit organizations and helping to scale them. Having invested in the for-profit organizations and having seen them sort of develop quite nicely, and some of them we still have in our portfolio, we decided to actually scale that effort and establish a separate platform, an impact investing platform, that we have branded Leitrock. There we have sort of a broader fund that invests in sort of people, planet productivity teams, but we have also then seen the opportunity to raise a dedicated climate fund. And how do we interact with entrepreneurs and how do I think about it? If you want to be successful and proactive, it's all about sort of identifying the right sort of business models and investment and teams, management teams, entrepreneurs often, but just entrepreneur is sort of critical, but there need to be people who can build teams. And so for us as we raise that climate fund, what was critical is to develop a lot of domain expertise in key areas. And so one of the obvious ones has been battery technology because electrification, of course, is sort of one key way to decarbonize, which is critical. And so we have done a lot of deep dives in that sector and looked at a lot of the opportunities and if you then have done a lot of work in a sector, you hopefully will be able to connect with the best entrepreneurs, impress them a little bit because you have deep know-how. And then each sort of organization, private equity organization needs to find its sort of, I would say, point of differentiation. And at Lightrock, having formed only recently, we have taken the impact dimension into the very center of what we're doing. And I think that goes down well with a lot of the young entrepreneurs, but it's, of course, not sufficient because you need to have all the traditional private equity skills. And so after having identified the best opportunities, having the funnel set correctly, and then hopefully negotiating a good sort of investment, it's then all about helping those entrepreneurs to scale and be successful with capital. But also by the network that you bring to the table there, I think we also quite differentiated because we're a little bit broader and we have a sort of strong presence also in the global south because we felt that capital into Africa, into Latin America, into India is going to be disproportionately more impactful if successful than in Europe and the US where the additionality of our efforts is probably not quite the same. So I stop here. No, I think it's very good what you're saying. And I know these entrepreneurs really appreciate in addition to the capital assets, the human assets, the network assets. I think these are really important whether, for example, you're working with battery companies or you're working with nature companies. I think it's been very interesting for me to see all the traditional investors who have gotten into this space in the last 10 years. And that's largely because we can do well by doing good, as they say. These are companies that are solving big problems but also making good returns. So really appreciate LGT getting into this space in this way. And Paulman, I'll turn to you next both with your hat for Alpha Trio and the climate fund. I'd like to learn a little bit more about that. But also in your sort of day job real hotels group in the private sector, how do you think about investing in these entrepreneurs slash ecopreneurs and then bringing the private sector resources to help them scale? Sure. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Actually, as a nature lover and a dog lover, I've always wanted to embrace sustainability and purpose at the core of our corporate strategy. That's why we actually launched the first carbon neutral hotel in Hong Kong 13 years ago, kind of before ESG and sustainability became buzzwords. And we have actually proven that we can do well by doing good because iClub has done very well in the past 12 years. We have expanded to almost six properties in Hong Kong. And in the past decade, we have been investing in a number of impact green tech ventures with actually great success. What's most encouraging is that we find that these ventures actually do well because of the impact they deliver, rather than in spite of. So contrary to public belief that there needs to be a trade of, actually, they are profitable precisely because they're helping us solve environmental challenges. And I say that actually sustainability is truly the defining challenge of the century, the greatest transition that we have to make in the history of mankind to reduce our dependence on fossil fuel to completely do away with it. But it can also be the greatest opportunity in that we are obviously the problem, but we can also be the solution by empowering those innovations that can help us with the acceleration of this transition. And that's why I've established Alpha Trio Capital with a mission to empower those disruptive solutions. And our thesis is very simple, that the next wave of unicorns ought to be green tech ventures that help us solve these existential challenges. And we feel that technology obviously is disrupting each and every facet of our lives, but they can also help us reduce emissions at scale across even the toughest sectors. That's why we are very excited, for example, about prop tech, about clean tech, and also agriculture and food tech. In Asia, again, we really are unfortunately lagging behind in terms of impact investing. Asia obviously is where the greatest growth is, but it's also accounting for 2 thirds of the emissions in the world. Of the total AUM dedicated to impact investing, we only account for 17%. And that's why I feel that we really have to catch up. There needs to be a sense of urgency in driving capital into this impact space. And that's why I've established Alpha Trio Capital as an impact partner for a lot of the startups so that we can help them with their ESG strategy to help them measure their impact and outcomes. And also, we are the commercial partner because with our hotel operations and also our other partners in the fund, we provide an ecosystem for them to really test their solutions, to fine tune their business model, and connect them with all the resources and connections they need to scale and become unicorns. So I think really we need to collaborate because they don't need just capital. They need resources. They need our network. And third thing, we are the Asian partner because actually, especially in this part of the world, there are a lot of very cutting edge inventions. And yet the local market probably is not as large as it is in Asia. So that's why we want to really help to facilitate technology exchange and knowledge transfer by being their Asian partner to help them build the local team to build local JVs and to penetrate through Asia. So 17% moving the needle up into the 20s, I think, is a... Well, hopefully more. I mean, if we account for two thirds of the emissions we ought to be... Certainly look at the world's population. I think that's a... And a lot of innovation is coming out of that part of the world as well. So thank you for your leadership there. And Rebecca, I'll come back to you in a second, but I want to get a sense, Arun, from your perspective in academia, but you've also been an operator. One thing that I'm... We've heard the word scale a number of times. I've heard you say that it's easy to start up, but scale up is very different. And I really like what I've heard about how you're thinking about this school for sustainability in the context of kind of a cross-disciplinary approach, an accelerator approach. And so I'm interested to maybe have you tell folks here a little bit more about that and what you're learning about both the need for cross-disciplinary knowledge and expertise, but also in the context of being able to scale. Well, first of all, thanks to the Economic Forum to bring us all together. And also thanks to Mark for his leadership on this ecopreneurship. And we have, with his supported launch to program it between GSB, the Graduate School of Business, and the Door School on Ecopreneurship. But let me, since you asked, let me sort of step back and talk about the scale of the challenge, right? And Pullman referred to that. You got $100 trillion economy, global economy, eight billion people going to 10, but mid-century. And we need to shift that whole economy, which is largely based on fossil fuels. We need to shift the whole economy in the next 22, 30 years. Something that got built up over 150 years, right? That's the magnitude of the challenge, right? So we need solutions. And the solutions have to be cheaper, better, faster, right? We went from, if you look at some of the pictures in New York City in the early 1900s, we went from horse carriages to cars, because the poop from the horse carriages was an environmental problem. And you came to cheaper, better, faster, right? And the same thing needs to happen. If you look at what solutions we have today, solar wind batteries, the first lithium-ion battery commercial came out in the early 90s. It took 30 years to scale that to where we are today, and now we can think about electric vehicles. Same thing with solar, it took even longer. And wind even took even longer, right? Windmills have been around for a long time, but not at the scale, right? So if you think about what solutions are needed to transition the whole economy, there's much more. Like how do we make zero carbon steel cement? If you don't do that, we're not gonna solve the problem. Food is 25% of the global emissions. We gotta decarbonize that, right? So you think about each of these threads, and we did the numbers. If you do the numbers, just take grid-scale storage. We know all, we need that. It's a trillion dollar per year sector. So there are, you take lithium-ion batteries, that's a trillion dollar. You take food, that's multi-trillion dollar. So if you are to solve this problem, we are at the cusp of launching, the world is cusp of launching, multiple trillion dollar businesses in the future, right? This is where, this is the time. So if you're an entrepreneur or ecopreneur trying to help the transition, this is the best time to be around. In fact, I wish I was a graduate student right now, or an undergraduate, because the opportunity is amazing. And we can make commitments, right? The COP28, we wanna transition away from fossil fuel. I love that. But we're not gonna be able to transition unless we have solutions. And the solutions have to be cheaper and better and faster. So that is the opportunity. And one of the things that most academic institutions are fairly good at is to get startups. But, and in our ecosystem, Stanford has a history of doing that. And we do that every year, at least 30, 40 startups that come out. But we're also realizing that this is not software, right? This is different. If you're gonna solve this problem, you could be a social entrepreneur or a commercial entrepreneur. This will, there's an economic issue, there's a cost, there's steel cement on the ground. And so, thinking about scale from the beginning, I think is a very important factor. Otherwise, it's not just a go-to-market strategy. It is go-to-market and scale in the next 10 years. How do we do that? Which means, if you think about any business or any entity at scale, economy-wide or global scale, you have to worry about what are the supply chains? What are the policy barriers, policy levers? What are the markets, if there's, how many people do you touch, right? Is there public acceptance? Are there ethical issues? Are there unintended consequences that come out of this? Because we are living in the unintended consequences of the 20th century, right? So, we have to look at that comprehensively. And this is not just an engineering or a business school or law school. This is the holistic view of thinking about new entrepreneurial activities that not only takes it out of Stanford or any other academic institution, but, and innovation's coming out, but takes it to scale so that you have a roadmap ahead. That's what we're trying to do. That's brilliant. And interested to hear more about some of the companies that you're working with, some of what you've learned in the last year. And I think, before that, we'll move to an actual e-copener. Rebecca Bresier, and I'm sorry I blanked on your name as we were sitting down as we were walking together in the cold, coming here. Who runs an incredible organization called Land Life and has done a really nice job, I think, in this context of scale over the last 10 years. So, can you tell us a little bit about the company and about what you've learned? Sure, yeah. So, we restore nature and on some level, we believe that we are creating the most valuable product in the world. You know, half the world's GDP depends on nature. And then probably the other half depends on that half that depends on nature. So, it is part of our life and is part of our economy. And to a room's point, it's a hardware business. Restoring nature is a hardware business. We use software, we develop software to make our job easier on the ground. Because everything that we do is to focus on the scale, quality, and efficiency of nature restoration. We simply don't have time. The challenge is very big with two billion hectares of degraded land. And we are creating a product that is still unfortunately dwindling in supply. So, we have to be very creative with both our software and our hardware solutions to get the job done. So, our software tells us where to plant. You know, with all the innovation in remote sensing, we can easily parse out land parcels that have both the economic and ecological potential for reforestation. We've developed clustering algorithms that tell us these are similar planting conditions and locations which helps us derive the species mix, the species density. And this we can do from behind our desk and it makes our job faster and more focused because the real hard work is on the ground. And I think that one thing we all need to remember is that we're not gonna solve the climate crisis from behind our computers. It is going to ultimately lead to action on the ground. And the investments in technology are so important because the real challenge is getting landowners on board, working with the nurseries that are multi-generation mom and pop shops that are not remotely ready for the scale that's gonna be required to restore what we have lost and will continue to lose as we make this transition because economy by nature is extractive. So, we have to find a way to replenish it even through this transition. The energy transition alone won't solve our biodiversity crisis and our nature loss. So, everything that we focus on is about that scale question. And how do we move from 100 hectares to thousands of hectares to tens of thousands of hectares? And a lot of that can be done through technology, but a lot is also through the convening power of organizations like this and thinking about we have to take a landscape level approach to how we design nature restoration. Well, that sounds great in theory, but a landscape level approach means you're crossing multiple different landowners with multiple different land uses and you're trying to explain to them how this organism needs to traverse across properties because it ultimately benefits our economy. That is very abstract and that is very hard to communicate to landowners. And so, it is that effort that is going to be hyper-local but needs to be at scale in order for us to continue to make this transition and survive all of these changes that are happening in our different biomes. And, you know, putting people at the center is really critical, I think, as we think about all of these solutions. And as you and I were walking over and talking about having to baseline projects. Yeah. And saying what that means is you have to go to the, you know, the neighboring farm next door and sort of explain, you know, what you're doing and people are not always friendly, don't always sort of understand. And so I think putting people at the heart of it is really key. You talked a little bit about collaboration. I know you're here with Uplink. I'm a big fan and supporter of Uplink. Just before we move on, I was hoping you could describe what Uplink is and what its value it's provided to you as it relates to sort of network and people. Absolutely. So Uplink is a program sponsored by the World Economic Forum as well as Salesforce and Deloitte. And it finds ecopreneurs or new entrepreneurs and what they believe will be the new economy. And that's where I think, you know, in 15 to 20 years to your point, it won't have a special title around ecopreneurs. We are going to be mainstream entrepreneurs because we are creating the new jobs. We are creating the solutions at scale to address some of the world's biggest challenges. And I think that the forum has had insight into that and how do we integrate businesses at a much earlier stage such as mine into these types of dialogues and conversations because this is the future of the economy. And so we represent, we're here representing 10 different pillars, so I'm here representing nature, but I also have colleagues here representing oceans, urban transformation, water use, kind of agriculture, precision agriculture. And they have brought us together from across the globe to also exchange our own ideas as a community of entrepreneurs in the new economy. And then to connect us on forums such as this, it's a real privilege. And it's a great exchange of ideas between sort of new companies and institutional players. Well, thank you. And thank you for representing, a blank thank you for doing it so well and for the incredible impact that you've had. Principax, I'll come back to you in terms of, you know, there's been a lot of challenges in the state of the world in the last 12 months, one of which has been the carbon markets, of which you work very deeply in Rebecca. And I know Light Rock has been thinking a lot about the space as, you know, have a room and you and Pullman, maybe you as well. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that in terms of the moment that we're in, both in terms of the challenges and the opportunities that are gonna come as a result of the turbulence that we're seeing today. Sure. So, you know, thinking about sort of the carbon markets, I think that what it tries to accomplish is to integrate the externalities, the positive and the negative ones into the economy and into business models. And thereby sort of lead to a better asset allocation, right? That's sort of the overall objective. And clearly, you know, that objective is spot on and incredibly important. And if that would have sort of been established earlier and we would have sort of found the right systems, we would all be in a much, much better place. So, we are still in the process of optimizing this sort of, this carbon schemes and the different ones, the other ones that try to address the emissions and to reduce those. And they're incredibly important because hopefully they will overall sort of bring down the emissions by putting a price on emissions and carbon or cost. I think those are now fairly well established. There's quite a bit of experience and they're scaling quite nicely around the globe. You can also invest in those markets, which we are doing. It's actually a nice little side niche asset class that generates good uncorrelated returns. I'm quite happy this year making sort of above 10% on one external investor that is doing that. And the other one, which is the more challenged one, is the voluntary carbon market segment, which tries to basically give rewards for mainly sort of reducing the most protecting our natural carbon sinks. And that such as protecting our sort of forest, our natural ecosystems, you know, that type of sort of positive work has not gotten the economic rewards that it should have deserved. And if we get these right, it will also be incredibly important because in order to fight climate change successfully, we need to accomplish two things, right? We need to decarbonize on one hand, but we also need to protect our natural carbon sinks, which are mainly the most vibrant ecosystems that we have out there, the rainforest and so on. And, you know, we are jointly on the board of South Pole, which is a company that has been a pioneer in that field, that has faced some challenges that are not just South Pole challenges, but they're actually broader sort of market mechanism challenges that we will need to address. And hopefully sooner rather than later, I'm confident that we will get there because we have to, but urgency is of course incredibly high around climate change. And that's what I guess brings us all together here. That's right. And I think that I'm hopeful that on the other side of this will become better standards, higher quality of projects. And to your point earlier, Rebecca, I mean, we're not only in a climate crisis, we're also in a biodiversity crisis. So we can't back off on investing in nature. It's too important for the fragile planet that we live on in so many areas. I just wanna check to see, are we doing a Q and A at the end of this? Should I be holding a little bit of time for that? Okay. Is that a yes? Sure. Okay. Okay, then I'll just ask maybe one more question and go back. I'm gonna shift gears a little bit and Pullman kind of go to you around AI. So we're seeing that everywhere this year at Davos, it's the theme. There's a lot of innovation happening in this area. We've been investing in some entrepreneurs that are working on AI solutions as it relates to the climate crisis. And for yourself and also for you, Arun, I'm really interested in what you're seeing in this space and what you're excited about and also what you see the challenges might be. And Pritz max, Rebecca, feel free to weigh in on the AI question as well. Sure, maybe I can just go quickly. So to Aaron's point, we really have to do this quickly. Otherwise, we're simply running out of time and luckily we can harness on the power of AI. So for example, in the prop tech sector, smart energy saving solutions, smart building management systems can really help optimize the use of energy in buildings. So in Asia, because of the weather, buildings can account up to 50% of emissions because we have to turn on the air con all the time. But because of AI, we can really precisely use energy to the best extent and also save on air conditioning, save on everything. And in terms of clean tech, that can also help optimize the use of renewable energy and also precision farming. So to this day, there are still nine million people dying of hunger. And also because of biodiversity laws and climate change, our food supply is becoming more and more jeopardized. So as the world population soars to 10 billion, we simply have to grow more food by at least maybe 60%. Luckily, again, we can leverage on AI. So we've been investing in precision farming solutions and also alternative protein to feed the world without all the emissions. So through AI, we can basically grow more food up to 30% with the use of less resources like energy and water because we can integrate all the field data with satellite with weather data so that we don't have to use as much water. So you're seeing innovation many places, one of which is the food and agriculture sector in particular. Can you just talk a little before we hear from Muren? I read about the work that you've been doing with the Metaverse and you talked about a carbon-neutral. That's a very interesting use of AI in my view. So I just wanted to hear a little bit more about what that is, why it's important, and how it really educates your customers in thinking about how and where they're staying as they travel. So I feel that a lot of times at forums like these, we are focused more on the extrinsic motivational factors. So we are trying to foster private public partnerships to create these incentives to do good. Or there are lots of regulations for the ESG reporting, et cetera. But ultimately, we have to get to the root of the problem, and that is actually overconsumption and also lack of appreciation of the interconnectedness of all, which is why I feel that actually the ultimate root of the problem can only be addressed by changing behavior. And what it takes is, again, to appreciate the fact that we are all in this together. And that's why, for example, in our hotel rooms, we have some nudges to encourage our guests to forego, say, towel, to forego housekeeping, and also the use of plastic bottles. For plastic bottles, I thought it is an interesting piece of data to change. Before we started using water filtration systems, our hotels alone in Hong Kong, we have 12 hotels, we actually consumed over 3 million plastic bottles a year. But because of a water disinfection technology from Stanford by Professor Yi Chui, we are able to use that groundbreaking technology to disinfect water at cost and also switch over to water filtration. So we have actually saved on a lot of carbon emissions that way. And also by giving the incentives to our consumers and also educating them about the externalities of all these user or the non-echo-friendly choices, we can actually foster long-term behavioral change. And I think that is the key to the transition. I would like to support the point that value systems, cultures, I would say culture value system, and then that translates into behavioral patterns that we either don't want to see anymore or that we want to support. That team has been grossly underestimated. And I think it's a root cause of a lot of the problems. And I come from a sort of small country and from a family that has been both sort of a tradition in politics and in business. I think culture and values and behavioral characteristics can be driven at, starts at the family level, typically. Hopefully you sort of get a lot of that sort of right from the beginning. Then you go through school and that's where you should get reinforced as well. And hopefully you work at the business that, again, sort of doesn't tolerate the bad behaviors and make sure that there are no plastic bottles. I mean, here in Switzerland, the notion that still water is being sold in plastic bottles is totally ridiculous. I mean, the water that you get from the tap for free is just 100 times better. And any plastic bottle water in Switzerland should be not tolerated, right? So again, culture at the corporate level, a huge opportunity. And LGT has done pretty well over the last decades. One of the key success factors, I'm firmly convinced, excellent culture, huge differentiating factor. And even at the state level, if I think about different countries and how I would sort of define the culture, it's just incredibly important. I mean, the culture in the US over the last 40 years, I've been going to the US now for a very, very long time, it has just shifted dramatically. And there are a number of reasons for that. But it can deteriorate, but it can also reverse. So I think we need to do the right things from a business perspective and sort of investing in the ban. Coming back to your point, I think culture is one where we need to work at much, much harder and much more consciously. I agree. And I'm going to give it to you for the last word. But what I will say is a fun fact on Pullman as I was doing some research is you have a master's in Buddhist studies, don't you? And I can see that come through the way that you approach your work. And so I really appreciate that and thinking about how do we take it from the extrinsic to the intrinsic, behavior change being core part of that, culture being core part of that, engaging people being core part of that. So we'll leave a few minutes for questions. But Arun, anything that you want to add, anything around AI, anything that relates to culture of this last bit of the conversation. I'll give you two examples. One is that with AI, I think it's fair to say that we are going to have some kind of a personal assistant of some kind that knows you and can help you do things, right? I think that's coming. Sorry, almost there. So if that's the case, one of the things we are looking at, we have, in fact, in our new school, the whole department and a thread of environmental behavioral science. And with faculty from the business school, from other parts of the school, all joining the door school. And one of the things we are looking at and talking about culture, indigenous cultures, people who live on islands, they had to be sustainable. Otherwise, they had to leave the island, right? We are on Earth as an island, right? So, and Buddhism or other religious, multi-religion. In fact, we are hosting a multi-religious faith meeting in February. And to see how, what are the lessons learned from those cultures? And that can be embedded in your personal agent that could help you and nudge you the right way. This is something that we will be looking at. The other thing, going back to carbon markets, we all talk about net zero. What does net zero mean? This we have to suck it out somewhere. If you want to have financial transaction out there, there needs to be assurance. There needs to be certainty or known uncertainty in what you do. So what we have now are the technology, like, for example, in the private sector, planet labs, that they're scanning the Earth in hyperspectral imaging on a daily basis, right? Now, we have chat GPD for language. So large language model, essentially, we have the data for every text that humans have ever written already built in to our large language models. We don't have that for images yet. And I think what we are going to see is taking those images and looking at, with precision, where is the kind of things agriculture can do, what are the kind, where is the carbon? And it's not just the where it is carbon today. If there's a wildfire or some other disease, the carbon goes away. And we have to keep stock of that on a regular basis so that we can enable a carbon market. And I think we're going to see AI being driven towards those where you don't have to have the knowledge base of how to program in Python to be able to get to that. But you should be able to do what you're doing for language. You should be able to do for images. And I think that's the interface is going to be developed so that you can just query images and say, OK, tell me whether all the eucalyptus trees are around the world and what's the height. And you should be able to get that answer from satellite imagery without being able to program. And I think that's coming. And I think that's the future in carbon markets and biodiversity and more. I think it's very exciting. I agree. And I think that there's nothing that builds trust like transparency. And so this is our opportunity and able to do that with imaging and other. In the few minutes we have left questions, please. Thank you. Thank you for the amazing insight to the speakers. My name is Nicholas. I'm part of the Global Shapers Community from the World Economic Forum representing the Dar es Slam Hub. It's quite interesting when you talked about scaling up. And my perspective is that scaling up is really context-driven and has proved to be a challenge. So is there a strategy or insights that you can give us, or a success story that has helped to scale up different entrepreneurial initiatives across borders in different contexts? Thank you. From my experience sort of scaling up is a challenge that differs from business model and activity to activity. Yes, capital can be a constraint, and especially if the volatility of the capital markets is as significant as we have seen it over the last couple of years, that's not helpful, right? But I do think that capital is key. And then the other aspect about scaling is just building strong execution capability. And that, again, comes from building strong management teams and for entrepreneurs what is very hard, I find, coming back a little bit to the values, is you need to start small and humble, and you don't have access to the best people. And then you sort of get more capital and you become more successful. And you have had your sort of loyal bodies from the first moment. But when you have grown to the next level, you need to be dedicated to the broader overall mission, and you need to bring in the better people. And those sometimes then this CFO for a business that has sort of 20 million revenues is going to be different, most likely, than the CFO that has been around at the very beginning. And these changes are really tough because they're offering contradiction with other. So that's where sort of good boards, good investment, or good coaching can help entrepreneurs to make these moves. The best entrepreneurs do it quite well themselves. But it's scaling comes down to availability of capital and building increasingly strong teams that have strong and strong execution power. And then partly, and that's where the difference is between the software models and the hardware, and a lot of the decarbonization is going to be hardware. And a lot of the, as it was already pointed out, and that is just you go through learning curves. And there is no, you can try to go through them faster. And that's what all good entrepreneurs try to do. But there's always going to be a learning curve. And things build on each other and so on. So that we just should have started a little earlier. We tried to sort of be as fast as possible. But that's just going to take time. I think it's also the intrinsic belief that you have as yourself that the amount of effort, time, and resources that you are doing to do something small is the exact same amount of time and effort and resources to do something big. And if you keep that at the forefront of your mission, of your operations, of your growth and learning curve, that helps you get to scale. Because it actually, it's the same heartache, it's the same sweat, blood, and tears for something small as it is for something big. And so you have to keep that at the forefront of your teams and operations. I like that. Thank you. And I'm glad as an operator on the panel that you were able to sort of have the last word on that. Because sadly, we're out of time. And I don't think we can go any further. But certainly I'm available after the session for any follow-up questions. And I really want to thank the panel for your perspective, for your wisdom, and your insight, and to all of you for joining us this morning. Enjoy your week. Thank you. Thank you.