 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm your co-host Jimmy Buccellato here aka the doctor in Studio with my intrepid colleague Scott Bernstein. Hey now and Benito is on the one and two And Roberto's around here somewhere in the studio. He was here earlier Anyhow, thanks for listening. Please Follow us on social media subscribe to our podcast Subscribe to our video show and I just wanted to mention a few things before we get into our hot topic today If you're new to the show and you're just finding out about us through video We have a lot of audio episodes in our archives that will not necessarily become Video so it's kind of confusing but the studio that we were at We did record a lot of episodes and you'll notice we're starting to upload those and obviously all the ones We're doing now are being Videoed or recorded rather, but we have some really hot episodes in the past you know interviews with guys like Michael Francie's and George young and some really big guests that we just didn't have the capability to video record But those episodes are available on audio So don't you know don't forget that we have some some really interesting stuff back in the archive So please check that out. All right be George young. Yeah, that's right He was actually in studio and that would have been so that was probably my favorite Recorded of all of the guests that we've had in studio is probably my favorite just because of how iconic he was and yeah And he was probably the toughest interview of a guest. I've ever done. Yeah, he was pushing back on a lot of It was kind of a prickly guy. Yeah, yeah, but we have some pictures of that when he was in studio on social media But eventually we will have some Like video What would you say Ben like shorts or something from some of those earlier episodes like yeah like teasers Yep, we'll have some clips highlights that will be put on Instagram as well as Facebook so she gangsta report that page and Tick-tock as well. Yeah, so for people that don't know that that there's a gangster report Facebook I know there's a bit of a disconnect sometimes between the video and the written when it comes to gangsta report Al profit handles most of the video until now where we're going to be uploading our own video But you can find all my written content as well as all the future video content on the gangsta report Facebook page Where we have 330,000 Foulers. Yeah, so just if you're new to the program just finding out about us through video Just know that there's there's other content out there either through our audio episodes on Spotify iTunes or gangsta report So anyhow, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching We're going to talk about the Hoffa disappearance and some of the recent news going on with The dig in New Jersey with Jimmy Hoffa, and I think by the time Audiences watch this video or listen to this podcast. We will have been a few days past the anniversary 47 years of this week that Teamster boss Jimmy Hoffa disappeared into The annals of pop culture I Don't think there's a question that it's the most speculated upon and notorious unsolved Murder in American history and it happened 47 years ago this week Jimmy Hoffa disappeared from my suburban Detroit restaurant parking lot and they've been looking for his body ever since and there was a What looked to be at least in a lot of people's eyes would look to be a major break in the case that a lot of people were Thinking and speculating and predicting was going to be the end of the search for Jimmy Hoffa They were going to retrieve his body from beneath the Pulaski Skyway in Jersey City, New Jersey That dig took Place in in the last couple weeks and we can report now definitively that the FBI did not find anything and We are now officially back to square one Yeah, so there was this was a big hullabooloo about this and by the way another more shameless self-promotion You can listen to an audio cast or episode we did with Dan Moldea where he he laid all this out like his his The reason why he was supporting Sorry, Jimmy. Yeah, the reason why he was supporting this theory and his His reporting on that so I actually want I want to break that down for people that are new to this Unfolding story Can you can you give us a synopsis of what was Dan's? Reasoning for pushing this narrative and then getting the FBI on board. Why would he consider this a legitimate spot to dig to find his body? So let me first tease out that At the end of this episode, we're gonna do a quick deep dive into what I've coined as the five Jimmy Hoffa fallout murders. There are five gangland homicides in the in the decade that Subsequent the subsequent decade after Hoffa disappeared between 75 and 85 There were five murders that were connected to Hoffa's disappearance and we're gonna lay those out for you guys at the end of the episode but starting with Dan Moldea who has been a mentor of mine and Dan is Been covering the Hoffa disappearance since day one at ground zero He's written the most about it besides myself He wrote the seminal book the Hoffa great book and he's a New York Times bestseller. He's written a ton of really Agilated important Historically significant Investigative pieces both in newspapers and magazines as well as books We did an episode with him about his book interference, which oh, yeah That was a fun of shows you the dovetailing between organized crime and NFL that he that he published in the in the late 1980s early 1990s he did one about Ronald Reagan and the mafia. Yeah, he wrote about the bill have that book the Bill Clinton White House and the suspicions around Vince Foster's death for people that don't know Vince Foster was a I believe an attorney in the White House that was allegedly having an affair with Hillary Clinton and Committed suicide. There were some people that believe that it wasn't a suicide Dan delved into that But Hoffa is a book about Rfk and his assassination. So Dan is had a storied career and You know, we're gonna we always tell it like it is here Dan Put a lot of his reputation and a lot of his life's work on the line with this this theory that He came to with with his Reporting and his interviewing of people that were either directly or allegedly directly involved or Second third hand involved in in the Hoffa disappearance and I think that this all in terms of where we got how we got to the Pulaski Skyway in in New Jersey today it starts with Dan Maldea developing a source in the 2000s which was 25 years plus after Hoffa vanishes and Dan develops a source I believe in 2007 Where he gets a member of the Genovese crime family's New Jersey? satellite crew or a Aging New Jersey mobster by the name of Philip brother, Moscato to confide in him and give him almost a decade decades worth of on the record comments that I Think they Dan and brother, Moscato had agreed wouldn't be released until brother, Moscato passed. So brother, Moscato died in 2014 it was the 40 year anniversary of Hoffa's disappearance in 2015 and Dan came out with a big article on the anniversary in 15 Devulging what brother, Moscato had told him which was that Moscato was responsible for bearing Jimmy Hoffa's body and He told Dan Maldea that the body was at his former trash dump which was known as the PJP landfill in Jersey City, New Jersey and that that property now is a nature preserve in State Park and Over the next handful of years both Moscato's son and Moscato's partners son Paul Coppola, sorry Paul Coppola Who was brother, Moscato's partner in the trash dump was not a maid guy was just a gambler and business associate and Sons of both Moscato and Coppola came forward to both Dan as well as Fox news as well as the FBI to confirm what Well to allegedly confirm what brother, Moscato had told Dan and that brought us to last fall where the FBI secured a search warrant and did a initial ground analysis of the area back in October of of 2021 they determined from that ground analysis that there was something underneath There was disturbed earth Underneath the ground where Maldea, Moscato, Fox news Coppola off Coppola offspring took them to They waited until the weather got warmer and And they dug and they didn't find anything and we by the way in previous episodes We joked about this being Al Capone's vault. Yeah, I'm sorry to do like Told you so Because because I like Dan a lot. He's been good to our show and I love his his writings, but I mean we I Mean is it he sort of predicted this I have so much respect for the guy and and again I have a lot of love for him because he's he's taken a role in mentoring me and and bringing me into You know this this fraternity of Hoffa experts and researchers But I've been pretty open with him From from the start of this that although I am rooting for him and I want him to be right and I am open to The belief that his theory has some merit because it's coming from him But I said I think at the end of the day You're going to be shown to be misguided in your belief that this was a New Jersey job or that New Jersey was Calling shots to the point where they could demand Hoffa's body be sent to them that they would even consider the people that Arranged and coordinated and carried out this you know Mob hit of the century that they would even consider taking a body across state lines and not just one state line But like four or five state lines and to just to bury him across the country because of a vanity play I mean if you believe this theory, it was because Tony Provenzano Who was Allegedly one of the co-conspirators in in Hoffa's disappearance and murder Wanted Hoffa's body as a trophy and wanted it as a bargaining chip for potential future prosecutions and This is under that theory. He sent word to Detroit that he needs Hoffa's body sent to him in New Jersey and Detroit just said Okay, here you go, Tony. Yeah, and I just that doesn't make sense to me in any way shape or form It it flies in the face of traditional mob protocol. It it flies in the face of just common sense By the way, Ben might not get the El Capone's vaults reference It's before your time, but when we were young we were a little kid. I think I was eight or nine It was a really big deal on national television. Yeah, Aldo Rivera, you know, Geraldo, right? If you heard of Geraldo Oh, yeah Who at the time had his own talk show and was like the you know one of the premier investigative journalists big deal Yeah in the world and back then you got to remember there was a lot less Oh, yeah, media to consume a hundred back when when Jimmy back in the day when Jimmy and I first got cable When everybody, you know first got cable in the 80s. Yeah Cable isn't wasn't at that point like it is today. There's five thousand channels, right back then cable was like 50 channels Right 30 channels. Yeah, that yeah, but before that there was just the three channels, of course Yeah, which I remember I remember before we got came sure. So do I but at that point just being on a Traditional cable like not being on NBC ABC or CBS, but I think he actually was on a network I think he was on ABC at one point. Yeah, okay. Well regardless. He was it was a big deal. They promoted it Geraldo Rivera had gotten access to Al Capone's vault and They thought it was they were gonna find you know all this money or gold bodies or body someone's ear Yeah knows and it was a it was a national television on prime time. Yeah in real life At that time at bedtime was like, you know, nine o'clock and I remember my asking my dad I need to stay up for this. I didn't know Al Capone was yeah as an eight or nine ten year old But it was cool. They made a big deal They made such a big deal of this that they were gonna uncover and they tease it started It was like from 10 to 11. I think yeah nine to ten. It was late and they teased it all the way to the very last Commercial break. Yeah, and then the end of the show was them going into the vault and finding nothing I think there was like one bottle an empty bottle that may have been from like prohibition or something. Oh my god And in all those career Where was really was took a took a hit the vault was in his old Hotel headquarters at the Lexington Hotel Which was the place that he had his office at and lived at I believe In the loop if you're familiar with Chicago, it's you know downtown Chicago Yeah, I don't think I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist anymore. I don't know He also had a headquarters in Cicero at the Hawthorne Hotel. Was that confirmed his vault? Yeah, okay And it was just not that and it was and even to this day like for Geraldo. It's like a walking sort of joke Yeah, it's about he has to bear yeah And so right from the beginning with this speculation about the Hoffa being in this Jersey dump I I kept on comparing it to Al Capone's vault because Dan was making a big deal about it Fox was making a big deal about it and I said you're gonna find exactly what Geraldo found I think you can tunnel from a socio-academic perspective. I think you can lump this into Reporters investigators researchers that are coming to this outside of Detroit Coming to it from the East Coast 100% agree with that and Dan will fully admit that Dan will tell you if he was on the on the show with us. He would tell us that Dan does not know Very much if anything about the Detroit Mafia, right? He differs to you and then it was an expert on the Provenzano crew Because of his reporting on on Teamsters Affairs and labor union activity, right and that's where Tony Provenzano's That was his bread and butter. He controlled You for all intents and purposes he controlled the Teamsters Union on the East Coast. Oh, yeah, you control all the delegates Yeah, he had a voting block there, which was integral to Hoffa to be able to get access to if you wanted to reclaim the union Just people that have been consuming us probably know this already but for anyone that's Consuming this for the first time give you the 32nd You know synopsis Jimmy Hoffa rode the power in the Teamsters Union on the shoulders of the Detroit Mafia Eventually was introduced to Chicago Mafia the New York Mafia the Boston Mafia and He came he became beholden to them. They lifted him into the presidency of the Teamsters Union in turn Hoffa grew the Teamsters Union into this monolithic international force over a very short period of time accumulated a lot of power and then as a Reward for putting him into the presidency. He then turned around and opened up the piggy bank That the central states pension fund, which was the Teamsters pension fund, which hundreds of millions of dollars of Money that mobsters could go in and get access to very low interest loans Kickbacks that were going to Hoffa and and other Teamster administrators and then could go open businesses that they could steal from and the thing that they that most famously built was Las Vegas all the hotels that were Built in Las Vegas starting in the late 50s all came from that pension. Yeah, and you could and having You know with access to the Teamsters also gave the mob Opportunities for extortion. Yeah, they could shut down parts of the economy if they wanted if they didn't get paid And then give them access not just to the piggy bank, but into the corridors of power. Yes in the labor movement Yes, and how Tony Provenzano went from just a typical Run-of-the-mill gangster, right to a major power broker in Oregon. Yeah, and a wealthy dude but this also gave that the mafia access to write the Teamsters especially back then truck drivers you have access to Distribution systems, which means yeah, you could put on those trucks narcotics you could put on Was taking kickbacks and and Distribution system now for narcotics and all the things so like any kind of country Yeah, so the stolen goods the stolen good So the pension fund was definitely the golden goose But but there were other advantages to to this relationship between the two and I think it's it's good to remind people that because a lot Of people will ask me just you know on the street. Well, what why did they kill him again? And it's all going back to to to this and he goes to prison in 1967 the government because he was so aligned with the mafia the government Wanted to take down Jimmy Hoffa if they couldn't take down the mob they're going to take down the mob's puppet Yeah, and uh, they busted Hoffa for bribery jury tampering and fraud Uh went to prison in 1967 And then while he was in prison was able to arrange a commutation from the nixon white house Uh or or a sentence reduction of some sort. He was supposed to supposed to do 15 years in prison. He ended up doing five But in exchange for him able to walk out 10 years early from the sentence in late 71 um He had to agree to not run for The teamsters presidency for I think 15 years and Which he says he didn't know but you find that difficult to believe. Yeah, I think he did know and then Once it became public. Yeah, he had to put on the face that he didn't know and uh, he did everything in his power to get that That clause in the commutation Reversed and I believe that he was successful My reporting and damn old day was reporting Which is a piece of reporting that has never really gotten a lot of legs and it surprises me Uh that jimmy hoffa was a confidential informant for the fbi At the end of his life um, we've had fbi agents on here that will um push back on that and The push back in my opinion Could be coming from the fact that they just didn't know I mean just because someone's a confidential informant for the bureau doesn't mean that every agent in the bureau knows that someone's given information remember that also one time we were having uh We were sitting down with the former head of the dea in detroit and Remember that story he told us that there was an assassination attempt on hoffa's life and I think it was fbn back then Fbn agents were at hoffa's house providing security for like 24 hours Well, that's an that's an interesting thing, right? Right. Well, I wouldn't why wouldn't hoffa just have His guy he had a lot of muscle around him or the Happens to be the federal bureau narcotics Just be because doug was valentine. There's another great, you know another great author who writes about this stuff He he's convinced that that that hoffa was probably an fbn informant too. Not just not just fbi so hoffa comes out of prison at night and it was the very last week of 1971 for so for all intents and purposes 1972 and He is intent on and getting back into the union The fbi had made him from my reporting made him a promise That if he gave up everything you knew about the mob and their influence in the teamsters and agreed to get rid of the mob in the teamsters that they would Get that clause in his commutation ruled unconstitutional that he'd be allowed to run in the 1976 election And if he would have ran in the 1976 election, there was no question. He would have won in a landslide. Yeah, so When hoffa was away in prison, this has turned out to be more than 30 seconds synopsis. My fault. I'm just very long winter It's good content the The mafia had decided that they enjoyed life in the union without jimmy hoffa more than they did with jimmy hoffa Hoffa had been replaced by his his former right-hand man second in charge frank fit Simmons Who was a pushover hoffa was a pit bull fit Simmons was a pushover Uh, and they just preferred Dealing with Simmons. He was more low key Simmons. There wasn't wasn't drawing the same wasn't it? He didn't love the camera the way that hoffa loved the camera And uh, they told jimmy that his days in the union were over with And that he should go retire and hoffa didn't Take kindly to that advice and began making open threats To the mafia on national television going on shows like 60 minutes and the tonight show and the mike douglas show and the Well i'm Dick cavett show and and saying that i'm going to get back in the union and i'm going to rid The teamsters of any mob influence so It just things came to a head uh in the summer of 75 There were i mean there was there was a war going on before Yeah hoffa's murder there was a there was a year's worth and this is where moldea came in that's like moldea came into detroit To cover this Union war that eventually results in hoffa's Disappearance and it was a war between hoffa and his loyalists and Fitzsimmons and his loyalists being backed by the italians but Believe me hoffa had very formidable Allies in his fight. Yeah, and he had the rank and file. Yeah, I mean he had the average teamster member By the way, you know in fairness, you know the average teamster worker. I mean they're not privy to any of this stuff I mean they they know they you know, they're not naive They know there's some sketchy dudes in the background, but they're not privy to all the politics and You know machinations so the average person they they liked hoffa and I agree they love to vote They would have voted for him a hundred percent. They loved him So so hoffa had Some strong dudes in his corner, but he also had the rank and file. He had the numbers Yeah, which which was Very concerning to the jackalones and others and there was a there was a campaign of violence launched against hoffa an intimidation campaign From his former allies in the teamsters Fitzsimmons rolling McMaster who had been his number one goon For 20 years was the guy that when anyone when there was any problems in the union and hoffa wasn't sending the mob He was sending McMaster. Yeah, who was An irish guy that might as well have been an italian organized crime figure. He was uh, you know six foot five Who's an opposing very imposing suspecting a bunch of murders. Is that the character that's based off the irish men or no No, that's that's frank sheeran. Okay. Yeah, but I I would tell I would tell ben Who is is somewhat of a novice? Uh, definitely nice. I'll do respect Uh, I mean just in a sense that he doesn't study this the way right that rolling McMaster Was 10 times more of a shock caller when it came to Labor movement hoffa mob than frank sheeran ever was he was much closer to hoffa than Sheeran was so in some ways rolling McMaster was the real frank sheeran Yeah, the way that frank sheeran the real irish man has been presented to the public by scorsese and deniro Probably would have been a better idea to to frame that around rolling McMaster. That's a good point But McMaster was assigned to be the captain of this intimidation squad and a bunch of jimmy hoffa's Uh, loyalists were either physically attacked or had their property Uh, vandalized Cars were being blown up boats were being blown up um And it just it it escalated to the point where Hoffa was killed Yeah, so When we talk about the Co-conspirators, it it seems like provenzano was was definitely involved at some level so In terms of at a very minor level. Yeah. Yeah, but that's that's what I want to get to so like to Why put all this stock? Brother muskato was one of his soldiers. Yeah, brother muskato Tony provenzano was a couple regime In the genovase crime family in charge of new jersey Underneath Provenzano was brother muskato who was provenzano's main Loan-sharky lieutenant. So I have a fun. I have a difficult time believing that muskato Would be brought into this. I think he's too low ranking to be brought into this conspiracy further more What would be the counter argument? What was Dan? I know it's not your position But what would Dan's counter to my being skeptical that a guy like muskato would have I mean, I think his counter would be that It wasn't anything to do with muskato other than the fact that he owned a trash dump I see so he was just a convenient Whatever he was a made guy So I can be open to believing that muskato Knew something what I can't be open to believing is that muskato then turned over the actual burial To his Partner in the land full paul capola. Yeah, who was not a made guy right never sworn oath to to the mafia who was just a gambler And he's the one that's who's in charge of actually putting off his body in the in the ground I don't believe that and then he and then he tells his His sons who are not made guys Yeah, yeah, I mean that's unpacked that a little bit because I think um if you're you and I are like really Like to get into the minutiae of organized crime and the sociology of organized crime The what I refer to is the political science of organized crime um And and so I find it difficult to believe Because of the way you described it. I think this would be pretty much elites What would have access to this kind of information? um What why does this go against like the protocol and like the customs that that we we think are traditional mafia ways of doing things well The first thing I'll say is that Tony provanzano is the most overrated Figure in this entire saga more than buffalino. I think buffalino is the most overrated No, I think provanzano more than more more. Okay, because I think buffalino actually did have to have some type of sign-off Yeah, and I think provanzano was merely a pawn He was a puppet not the puppeteer and the perception is that he was some type of puppeteer. Yeah, um and then Going further down this rabbit hole. I will say that When we're talking about protocol and this is you know protocol in any business Uh, you know the mafia is a business the mafia is economy They're an organization just like ford motor company is just like mcdonald's and there's protocol and organization Yeah, right and protocol is that that's why it's called organized crime and not Disorganized crime so protocol would be whoever jimmy hoffa quote-unquote belong to whoever jimmy hoffa was being operated by would be responsible For getting rid of jimmy hoffa and you can go one step further and say This is this is tried and true For the mafia from for time immemorial if you bring someone in And they turn out to be bad You're the person that's taken them out. You have to clean it up. Right. Yeah, so hoffa was a detroit mafia asset starting back on the 1930s um So he'd been an asset of the detroit mafia for three to four decades at the time of his four four decades 35 roughly 35 to 75 um so detroit mafia was in charge of jimmy hoffa jimmy hoffa lived in detroit um jimmy hoffa was Liaisoning with all the different mafia families in america via the detroit Mafia the toko's really crime family specifically the jackaloni brothers So it only makes sense that Once the decision was made and I do believe there had to be some type of consensus This was a big enough deal that it wasn't just detroit deciding to kill jimmy hoffa and then going to do it This I I believe that the commission in new york a cardo jozerily in detroit Uh, buffolino I because of his role in in the unions and with the genovase um possibly bruno Possibly traficante and marcello down south. Um, I think there there did there did have to be some type of Uh communal green light but after that green light was Was okay once the light was lit and if you and if you read the available documents from the government it lays this out in the hoffax memo that the jackaloni brothers tony jackaloni and his brother vito billy jack were given responsibility were tasked with organizing Coordinating and carrying out this murder. They quarterbacked the whole thing and they were the guys that had been The boots on the ground with hoffa Since since the 40s and to your point about provanzano being a uh, just sort of a uh, chess piece here is Hoffa is not dumb. He knows that things are hot He's not just going to meet with the jackaloni's willy nilly for for coffee The the the bait Is tony pro that's that was that was the value that provanzano brought to this conspiracy, right? Uh, again for for people that don't know provanzano and hoffa had been very close friends and allies hoffa had actually put provanzano into power in the union They were in prison together in the late 1960s and they had a very very acrimonious fallout where they were Physically attacking each other whenever they saw each other Threatening to kill each other's families I mean it was very very visceral and it all stems from insurance benefits Yeah, that hoffa was still receiving and his family was still receiving In prison that provanzano's Family was not right provanzano took issue with it and hoffa said well It's people like you that put me here put me in here in the first place So i'll get my benefits and you won't get yours and you'll shut your mouth about it Yeah, which tony pro didn't right So by the time hoffa is out of prison him and provanzano are uh at each other's throats literally and figuratively and by the time The election starts coming around hoffa Realizes that if he's going to achieve his dream of reclaiming the union that he has to make nice Right provanzano because he needs provanzano's voting bloc, right? He had all the east coast delegates So it's too when the when the jackalones say we can arrange a sit-down with tony pro It's too good for hoffa to pass up even though he's alert and he knows that Like you know, this is no joke. It's he can't pass that up and we should point out that Again talking about protocol Provenzano under normal circumstances would never travel to detroit for a sit-down. No um, but It made sense and it was easy to uh weave into the Roos or the lie That provanzano was coming in that week for a wedding which he was um, but the wedding was later in the week and It was the buffalino wedding The the attorney not the gangster and uh, william buffalino's daughter was being married and the wedding I believe was on saturday But they told tony jackaloney. Hey listen pro's coming in town. He's gonna come in a day or two early to have this sit down with you And that was easy for Hoffa to believe because he knew that the buffalino wedding was that week Sure, and it would make sense that provanzano was coming in of course. Yeah, that that's per it's perfect really Um in a you know and the jackaloney is thinking about it from a murder perspective the jackaloney's spent a lot of time Teeing this whole thing up. Uh, again, if you read the hoff x memo You will see a series of meetings that were taking place between billy and tony jackaloney Travelling to hoffa again, I know there's it's the minutiae that might not Catch everyone's eyes, but if you if you know what to look for there's significance in it um under normal circumstances hoffa would travel To the jackaloney, of course or they would meet in a uh somewhere in between neutral a neutral site But in this case all throughout july Of 75 billy and tony were going up to jimmy hoffa's summer cottage And there were I think three three separate Meetings that took place the last one being on july 26th Yeah, and he disappeared on july 30th and let's get into the uh forensics of it too in terms of why you and I were always skeptical that he would be uh You put taken to new jersey. First of all, we think as you pointed out detroit's call is uh carrying out this operation Let's get into the forensics and this is just straight criminology here. I think like Why would you? Drive across state lines the body of the most sought-after per missing person, right? I mean there is It was on the news by that night by that night. It was on the it was on the national news See you have fbi you have state police and all these places you have local pd like just you know, everybody's looking for this Just so people understand this wasn't like he disappeared and then like five days later in the news He was such a big deal of a person. I mean, right? I've said it a lot that he was like a de facto head of state He was one of the most recognizable people on this planet Yeah, and by the time he didn't come home at five o'clock that afternoon The new stations were camped out at the hoffa house by ten o'clock that night, right? So wouldn't you if you have if you've just carried out this execution and you have access to crematoria Is that the plural for crematorium crematorium whatever you had at least for at least four Incinerators or crematorium right either funeral homes sanitation places Wouldn't you just incinerate the evidence or would you keep the body on ice and then drive across? Let me also say let's ask let's ask bet. I mean bet like you're like just as a you're a regular dude I mean what does that strike you as plausible that you would drive the body across state lines rather than just Incinerate the evidence right then. That's insane to me cross country not just across it. It's not like they brought him to Indiana or Ohio right several states the spolato brothers Uh, the the joe patchy from casino when we show you that they murdered him at the end of that movie Which was happened in real life. They murdered him in chicago and they buried him in indiana. Yeah, which is right across Yeah, you can get from where they killed him in chicago to where they buried him indiana in 20 minutes Yeah here. This would be a 12 13 hour Yeah, trip. Yeah, at least 12 hours. Yeah at least 10 to 12 hours I would say I mean why would you on a truck on I think a car you can get there in 9 10 hours Yeah, not a big-ass truck. Yeah. Good point with a stinking body. Yeah That everybody's looking for that everyone's looking for a high profile And you're talking about an organization the mafia that uh is known for getting rid of bodies Yeah, yeah, and in a smart way in a Detroit family Which was an outlier in in the sense that they got rid of bodies and never got caught Every other crime family has had members of the crime family Arrested convicted sent to prison for mob murders In Detroit were going on almost 100 years. No, nobody's ever been arrested or convicted or sent to prison for murder no the uh In my book, I talk about some of the the trials in the 19 teens the 1920s 1930s And there were some trials, but no one was ever convicted Those murders not not one not one person So you have like the elite of the elite when it comes to mob murder handling this It don't make it any more complicated than it needs to be right and I'm right And I think I said this on fox news when I went on this past weekend If let's just play the game for a second and say that tony provanzano did have that Stance and he sent word to Detroit. I need off his body for a trophy. Bring it down here right now Know the response from jozerily jack toko and tony jackaloni were the three most powerful people in the family at that time Would have been yeah, go fuck yourself tony pro. Yeah, he can't make that call He can't make that call even if that's what he wanted. He can't make that call and so I'm curious to hear what scott and ben You know what so why are guys like dan and other people? um Just have this blind spot about the things we're talking about my hypothesis has always been There's an east coast bias on the part of researchers and journalists that I think scott Subscribes to that too. So what do you guys think about that? Do you think that's part of the explanation of why there's this like refusal to think that There's no way detroit could have carried this out Yeah, we were making out of the body detroit some mickey mouse operation We need to send in the big guns right right and it's like no these detroit guys have been They've been consuming this bullshit for all intents and purposes or for for lack of a better term They've been consuming these narratives, especially over the last Five ten years with the development of of the irish men and and I've talked to them. They're offended They take it as a slap in the face You think we needed some other family to come in and handle our house cleaning like you don't think we could do that ourselves Yeah, and I do I think there's an east coast bias. I think when Journalists and others think of mafia. They think of new york. They think of chicago They think of east coast and it's just It's unimaginable to them that that this rinky dink crime organ. That's the way they view it This rinky dink crime organization in the midwest. Yeah, because because you know, we see like uh, we pick me thing in new jersey glorified crew If i'm wrong, you correct me But I I believe that you had a conversation with sammy the bull one time And sammy the bull he said detroit mafia and sammy the bull is like there's a mafia in detroit Like he know he knew there was but he was being like The first time I should say the first time I was I've only talked to him a couple times Uh, so it's not like I talked to the guy a lot, but the first time I talked to sammy the bull on the phone I I said i'm i'm from detroit. I study the detroit mafia Um, did you guys have any due to the gambinos? Did you and godi have any uh interaction with the detroit guys? And he stopped and he paused and he said Detroit michigan Is that even in the united states of america? That's like a typical of like east coast mob guys, although we know that there was there was Tony the bull We know that and when he was in prison with godi godi wanted to meet with the bull carato and carato wouldn't meet with them because They had some kind of And godi and jack aloney chaired an attorney Bruce cutler. Yeah, yeah, right who was godi's, you know, favorite attorney was almost a De facto member of the gambino crime family. In fact, he got kicked off the last case of godi's because he was and wasn't he disbarred He might have been and then got his license back. Yeah, but uh, they didn't they didn't let Cutler defend godi on his last trial because they said there was too much. Yeah Meshing yeah of the mob and and cutler's They said he was like tom hagan. Yeah, and and we know that if you go back farther Tony jack aloney was using cutler at the end of his life Yeah When he was facing a racketeering case that he died before seeing a jury, but bruce cutler was tony jack's attorney Yes, and if you go back farther guys like like joe profacci and joe banano were really close with with zirili and So we and even if you want to go way back to my book like, you know, gasparmi lotso and some of the detroit He was from you know, new york, but originally but um and joe the boss was was close with chester lemare Chester lemare, but anyhow, but but that sort of attitude. It's not just with with certain mobsters I think it's with with journalists and others that like Detroit is rinky dink. You can't uh, let's not forget. You know joe's are really Fat on the commission Yeah, joe's are really was on the commission not only was he on the commission joe's really was the The the conciliary of the commission if you read joe banano's book He says it wasn't an official title, but in banano's book. He says that we had joe's are really in detroit when there was any disputes amongst the new york bosses And we needed some type of mediator. We'd always call joe's are really it Yeah, him and bruno they can sit they liked those guys because they felt like they were non-biased, you know We're talking about reberto just walked and we're talking about the uh, Hoffa disappearance and and the east coast bias we feel there's an east coast bias that This refusal to accept the idea that detroit would carry this out that they would incinerate the body thinking that They took Hoffa somewhere they they buried him and new jersey that we just find that that's It it doesn't make sense and why do people keep on thinking this that's the sexy thing to think Yes, you know what I mean? It's not The fact that it was done so simply in detroit by a by a boring crime family And yeah, I mean I studied the detroit mafia for for a living to the to the naked eye. They're a very boring crime family They do everything Uh under a veneer of legitimacy. They're they're make Money not headlines. You don't have internal wars They've shown the media at every possible turn the exact opposite. It wasn't in detroit. They would just put them in a glass case Yeah, the exact opposite of the way things are in new york. Yeah. Yeah, and and so Um, I just um, I don't know why and and it's funny when when scott talks to these people And he explained if you watch scott on fox news or whatever And he and he explains to them that I think the body was incinerated You could just tell the posture of the of the broadcaster. I'm not trying to throw shade on anyone There's always this disappoint. You could just tell you could just it's just emanating off of this disappointment Like a balloon losing its air. Yeah, he's like, oh Like really like no, they asked me three times So you think there's a chance that even though the fbi was here last week and they dug and they didn't find anything He didn't get a chance to dug in the wrong place. No, I do not think there's a chance. They dug in the wrong place It's not even that hard, right, you know My father passed away. I I got his ashes in my house right now. It's not a big deal Like it's not a big deal that you know, yeah Yeah, it did incinerate a body, especially when you have access to sanitation and and funeral homes And also just get rid of the evidence. Yeah, and we should say that central sanitation Which was one of those trash sanitation companies that had a incinerator inside it Burned to the ground in arson fire less than a year later Yeah before the even though the fbi had actually been to central sanitation that had been Led around to do some type of very cursory Look see yeah, they never got a warrant to get in there But I was misreporting. I think that they had never Looked at they had gone they had gotten in there in the fall of 75 But but it burned down. I believe in february of 76 and by the way more shameless self promotion like with some of our older episodes So scott has these underworld contacts But also we've had people from federal law enforcement who are investigating this this disappearance in real time We've had mike seron on from the fbi Greg's day school keith corbett Greg's day school. Yeah, gregs. It was fbi. We had keith corbett from was a former us attorney us attorney federal prosecutor and they have all said gone on record on our show That this was a detroit even keith corbett was sort of offended. He was from the law enforcement He even said in this studio. He's in new york. I remember keith corbett in new yorker That's been his whole career in detroit. He goes when they said do you think robbie? I think or robberto asked if the uh the uh The irishman would have brought in here keith corbett was well, you don't think detroit We don't you don't think we've got our own guys. You don't think they're capable guys that could that could get rid of the jackaloni brothers Tony and billy who the fbi suspects was involved in literally dozens of gangland homicides I think they you know, maybe 30 40 hits these guys took part in You think they had a difficult time getting rid of jimmy hafa talked about this or not Do anything that when people ask me about it The only person that can corroborate frank sheeran is frank sheeran. Yeah, well, yeah, there's nobody else to say Or russel buffalina. There's no one else to say that frank sheeran is even a person or was around or was I heard and I think I've said this before on the on the podcast Taking his word or you're not that's that there's a line in the center He's mentioned in one of those congressional investigations as his name was on that list But I heard from two labor racketeer two fbi agents current fbi agents That told me when this when this movie was coming out to it was it two years ago roughly two years ago They said we did our own little back checking and he's like This was one guy telling me but he was there was two guys together, but one of them was telling me this That They're not sure that they could link even one Mob murder or any murder to frank sheeran. Yeah, right And he's trying to make him in the in the movie and in the book they make him out to be like he's some Season to the terminator. Yeah, and these guys are like, we don't know if he ever killed anybody. Yeah, no I I I I agree with that too one thing I want to point out before before we and then I know there's something else You want to get to but one thing that was interesting you were talking to me about off air is that Another another another pro a hole if you'll excuse the pun with with this with this new jersey theory is that The fbi that they were hip to this right from the beginning that this was a potential site They got a body. They got a tip Uh in the first couple weeks of the investigation from tony provanzano's driver a guy named little ralfie piccardo Uh that they had taken him to the dump, right and they went and looked uh, I think in November of 75 december 75 Yeah, they didn't find anything then and they didn't find anything when they went back there 47 years later. Yeah, and and at dan's Position is the dug in the wrong place, correct? So yeah, so let's to wrap this up damal dea is refusing to Raise the white flag. He is saying that he believes that it's possible If not likely that the fbi missed it when they were there and that he has uh Some gpr readouts from his own his investigative team, which I know they're doing a um A show through ample entertainment, which is a big hollywood production company, uh, that they have some type of gpr readouts that show that there was disturbance in an area that The fbi didn't dig at And I mean it goes back to like, you know, it's just crazy how technology has changed everything in the fact that like You know when you watch like that erin hernanda's documentary, you know, I mean they they can see that car They can collect they can go to the dump. They can see that there's headlights. Everything's on video. Everything's on video Everything's on tax. I mean, he's at the gas station. He said but back then forget about it even 10 years after that even 10 years ago Yeah, yeah, you know, it's a lot more difficult to pull something out like that off so I mean and you had a nice response on on fox if you want to give your response to the idea that they dug in the wrong place so, you know that The search was based on a search warrant signed by a us district judge You can't just show up at a location And dig wherever you want to dig You have to stick to the parameters of the warrant So they dug where the warrant told them they could dug And then I'll conclude and then we'll we'll move on to the five half off fallout murders But I'll conclude by saying I think this attitude or this notion that maybe they missed it is I shouldn't say I think I know It's very disrespectful to the people in the government that have been chasing this case Just like dan has and just like everyone else that's been investigating it For 50 years the government has Put tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of dollars into this investigation It is a ginormous embarrassment for them that they're 50 said they're 47 years down the road and haven't Found him So the belief that they would show up at a location like this with the type of tip they got with the warrant and not exhaust every potential Way to execute that warrant think about that A hundred million got it. I don't know. It's a hundred million dollars. Whatever this netflix movie is made 200 200 one guys Shred of tail or you know that only he can corrupt well That goes back people love it that goes back to the east coast thing I mean there's a lot of people that watch that movie and they think that that's what that's what really happened Both score says the engineer will tell it to you you're gonna believe it. Yeah, no and that was to me the The real slippery slope when it came to that film because you know I'm all for Marty Scorsese making great movies because he's the greatest that's ever lived And if you're just watching that movie to be entertained From a mob movie it it hits it on the head, but if you're Consuming that movie or watching that movie or learning from that movie to to understand history Yeah, you're you're to be honest too is that the story of frank shear and is still the same story as like henry hill You know, it's it's glorified, right? I mean I don't think Henry hill was Hundred times more glorified than henry hill. I mean, I'm the only guys that think that the only scorsese movie that wasn't glorified was casino Those guys are really We have said this before on this that Scorsese has been so great at historical accuracy And all of his previous mob movies And it it seems that there's I I have trouble reconciling or it seems to be there's disconnect between his approach To this film and then like his approach to casino his approach to good fellows, which he stuck very close To the facts and things that were That took creative license book for some reason or that, you know, well deniro I know deniro was to this day says that this is what happened But is it cold? I hear you paint. I hear you paint house, which by the way Scott and I talked about this in rebuttal years ago before this was even known about it as a movie I remember asking scott like I've never heard of that never heard that expression They're trying to tell you they're trying to tell you that's an expression that seems in the mafia And rebuttal and scott was like, yeah, I've never heard of that either and then and then we had some of those we had like, uh Um, you know Keith Corbett on and he was like, I'm telling you No wise guys ever use Expression Doesn't it's what it's supposed to be like when you shoot somebody and the the blood from their brains go on the The walls of the house that you're painting the house. I've never heard. I mean, I think that's where the term comes Yeah, it could be Well, speaking of people getting killed you want to yeah, let's finish off. Let's just go go back through there were five murders that were either directly connected to the jimmy hoffa disappearance or Potentially connected to the jimmy hoffa experience Experience. Oh, like this like the jimmy hendrix experience the jimmy hoffa experience Every good name for our band ben. I'm trying to get ben in the hardcore music. We're gonna form a band jimmy hoffa experience Forget about the jimmy hendrix experience. We'll give you the jimmy hoffa experience So the first one was november 3rd 1977 and it was a new york mob attorney named gino gallina who represented uh, some people that were Allegedly involved in the hoffa disappearance and gallina was cooperating with the fbi and dea because he had uh some Legal issues hanging over his head that he was trying to get out of uh, he was known as a very slick Good-looking fast moving attorney that sometimes blurred lines between him and his clients Kind of reminded me a little bit when I was reading about him of an italian version of Sean Penn and carlita. Oh, yeah David Klein Klein felled. Yeah So, uh, one of the people that that gallina was feeding information on was sally brugulio Who was 20 provanzano's? main hitter hitman who was potentially at the Hoffa murder. He was also giving information against uh, vincent gigante Oh the chin who at the time was a capo Maybe an acting boss, but eventually would become the most powerful godfather in all of new york. Yeah So gallina was killed november 3rd 1977 with these rumors of cooperation and then as part of his cooperation Rumors were circulating that he had some type of materials That proved where hoffa was and who killed him Maybe tapes or affidavits And then he was using them as some type of bargaining chip He ended up dead Going to visit his mother after having a date in uh, chelsea with a secretary of his So that was the first one then a month later in december of 1977 one of jimmy hoffa's closest friends And a teamster union of figures by the name of auto wendell That's a big name is found dead in livingston county, which is uh You know the Ann Arbor the three main no and i'mers washington. No, uh, Lansing and livingston. No livingston is like Howl and heartland. Oh, yeah, right. Okay. Um, it's kind of hidden in metro detroit when people think metro detroit They think oakland county mackerel county Um, wane county. They don't think livingston, but auto wendell was in livingston. He was shot to death in his car uh, he had been attacked in 1975 as part of that intimidation campaign of trying to rough up hoffa loyalists to convince hoffa to be uh to drop out of the election and he was slated to testify against vince mailie at a trial in 1978 and He ends up dead uh The the murder was at first ruled a suicide and then Changed officially on the death certificate as a murder and vince mailie was a guy who was deep into that whole teamsters So vince mailie a couple regime in the detroit crime family His uncle angelo mailie was longtime underboss. Yeah, he's on the cover of my book a picture and Little vince mailie well and angelo mailie were two of hoffa's first Go-betweens. Yeah more so angelo vince was in college at that point vince was a was a uh went to noted aim and was a war hero Yeah Was special forces in world war two the mailies introduced hoffa to a lot of those new york guys at like weddings and things like that so, uh Keep in mind who vince mailie is as we go through this list The following year march 1978 march 21st sally bugs brugulio Is killed in front of a little italy social club There were rumors that he was cooperating. Is he the guy with the glasses in the irish man? Yes. Remember the thick That's a that is a good scene in the in the movie The most part i like about him in that in that movie is that you know either you recognize this so you don't Is that when deniro walks through the door of that house? He's putting that linoleum down. Yeah, so that they can easily wrap them up Present up and uh, oh, yeah rid of it What but what is what does pachino say to him with those glasses? He's like, how do you can you fucking see with those things? He goes, I can't see a So brugulio According to some early accounts Was the shooter on the half ahead I don't think I think that has been At least by the current investigators has been Dismissed and they believe it was 20 palazzolo a detroit mob soldier at the time that would Parlay his role in the half of murder to great heights in in the mafia, but uh There were a lot of people over the years have believed that sally brugulio was there and possibly pulled the trigger And that he was about to go in front of a grand jury to tell what he knew So they got rid of him march of 78. So it was two and a half years After hoffa disappears chucky o brian would never corroborate anything right? We just heard from jack goldsmith by the way a friend of the program. Yeah, we've had him on we're gonna have jack on another another time and and and maybe deep dive a little bit more of his uh His history because not only did he write this great book about hoffa and his stepfather chucky o brian jack goldsmiths a professor at harvard, but by being chucky o brian's stepson He grew up around the jackalones. Yeah, so he has some very Interesting insight that I don't think we got into in his first interview. I just talked about the book I don't remember because it's been a lot of years since i've done a lot of research on this But I don't remember from watching the movie who is bobby holmes So bobby holmes was because he said the fish was for bobby. The fish was for bobby holmes bobby holmes at that time was the vice president of the detroit teamsters union local um and he was a hoffa loyalist and was someone that was relatively popular in in the union around the country and the seattle teamsters union sent bobby holmes a fresh water salmon that they had caught in seattle to detroit to the teamsters union office in detroit I don't know if it was a birthday present or whatever. I can't remember but That's what chucky o brian was doing that morning with the car uh the 75 mercury marquee that was used to Hoffa and the only piece of physical evidence that's ever been recovered from the case. They found hoffa's dna in the trunk He was using that car to deliver the salmon to bobby holmes and bobby holmes's house was in farmington michigan and He took possession of the car in in st. Clair shores from joey jackaloni. Tony's son drove the fish To bobby holmes's house in farmington and then drove the car back to south athletic club Where I believe he turned over the car to the hit team. I mean from what I know That's a lot of driving. I know that just seems to me lever like When I was a kid, you know, we're growing up. There was no 696 back then either. That's a good plan I grew up on the east side in st. Clair shores. It wasn't till you know I was 18 19 20 years old if if you if you asked me were farmington hills He would have just taken eight mile all the way that would be mars. He would he would have taken eight mile all the way You could take eight mile if you like where that house was or they're saying in the beaverland house Yeah, I mean that that might so be that's northwest detroit. It's like uh greenfield and seven mile Yeah, that was you could have got there from telegraph. So from yeah, it was right for a mile and a half From Marcus right box. You could have you could have gone off telegraph. It's a long way. Yeah Well, that's why it doesn't make sense. It would have been like a 20 minute drive It doesn't make sense as opposed to going to either carlocada's house or Lenny Schultz's house, which were both two minute drives, right? I never I never heard my dad or anybody talk about Farmington hills or south field south field forget about it. But I mean Franklin athletic club No way south athletic club, but I mean not to be confused with the Franklin But in fairness like you got to think about the teamsters are I mean they're that's very political So they're all over the place. I mean they're like for those who are just regular guys you live on the east side Yeah, you don't go to farmington for anything at least back then but but for these guys that that wasn't that Unusual to be driving and frankly if you're chucky o' brian, this is what you this is your job. Yeah, you're a lackey You go deliver things for the for the teamsters and for the mob You don't ask questions. No, you don't right. He did how about the fact that chucky o' brian didn't have a car Yeah, what kind of? He was what 35 years old at that time Like how do you not have a car? Yeah, and why was he lent that car? That's pretty I'll tell you why he was lent that car He was lent that car because the jackalones wanted to be able to The news the jackalones wanted the news to be able to say chucky o' brian had possession of that car that day Yeah, he was he's a he's a Sacrificial lamb walking around the the athletic club today. Hey Tony jackaloni never talked to anybody Tony jackaloni didn't say hi to anybody. He didn't know to see you But the afternoon of july 30 1975. He was doing the rounds of the entire athletic club stopping at people's tables Sitting down with them Taking their hand clearing tables kissing babies like he was running for an electron Except for apparently except for apparently gunner. He was smitten So, uh, then let's move to uh, july 30 1981 the six year anniversary. This is the crazy of hoffa's disappearance Karla kata who the detroit mob soldier la mafia prince. His dad was the godfather of the la mafia Uh ends up dead At almost the exact same time At about three o'clock hoffa was most likely killed at about three o'clock July 30 1975 a lot of people that believe he was killed at la kata's house la kata then was Either killed himself or was killed at three o'clock around three o'clock on july 30th 1981 and I don't think it's coincidence I think karla kata's house was used as The the the hit house the place they took jimmy hoffa to to be murdered It was a house that he had been to a number of occasions over the years to meet Tony jackaloni and billy jackaloni Uh, it was a it was a house that was known to host sit-downs on the west side of detroit most of The mafia back then Lived on the east side and when they would come west they would need a place to meet because there wasn't a ton of activity or shouldn't say not a ton of activity. There wasn't a As much of a physical presence. Yeah of where these guys lived la kata lived in bloomfield township Yeah, and had a house that was secluded. It was called the house on the hill and um He was jack toko's brother-in-law I've been told that La kata had gotten mouthy And that's what I was gonna ask you that after six years the only reason that would happen was because Something yes of the trust so broken. Yeah, there were rumors that he was mistreating Josephine josephine toko who went by the nickname babe. I believe she's still alive Babe toko was jack toko's Sister tony toko's sister black bill toko's daughter There were rumors that that la kata was mistreating her That he got called on the carpet for it by his brother-in-laws jack and tony toko Jack toko at that time by 81. He's the full fledged boss in 75. He's acting boss And I've heard that La kata told his brother-in-laws There's nothing you can do to me because I I hold the ultimate trump card I know that you guys killed off at my house And I'm gonna hold that over your head. Oh Bad move like I did apparently in the movie. Yeah, both bad move on and I believe that the toko's killed their own brother-in-law Made their sister a widow made their nieces and nephews Live the rest of their lives without a father to to send a message to the rest of the crime family and possibly the rest of the country that Anybody that even thinks about whispering a word of this is going to be taken care of even if it's our own family Michael Corleone. Yes. Yeah Yeah, I mean and we asked, uh You know the FBI about this and they they you know, he said mike's wrong said he they thought it was suspicious And then I said, well, did you guys look into it? And I I felt this answer was a little It wasn't very satisfactory. So that whole thing is a sort of a sketchy situation about well, there wasn't a ton of Uh investigation that's what I mean. There wasn't I have the police report right and three pages And even and even the FBI didn't seem like very interested in that and I I think that that's And I also I also want to state You're talking about protocol If nick lakata who was Carl lakata's dad had died Had not been dead nick lakata died in 1974 If nick lakata was still alive in 1981, there's no way that they kill carl lakata. Yeah, they couldn't do that Although and my understanding is that carl lakata was also not very well liked Um, I mean the the last rafiose read about his time in la. Yeah, he wasn't very well liked or respected Right. So, um, I mean it doesn't necessarily mean he was killed for that But I'm just saying it's kind of an interesting and babe. Toco was Babe. Toco was at the house when lakata Allegedly shot himself twice in the chest. Yeah, and then put the gun down Wiped it of fingerprints put it down about 10 feet 15 feet from And then went and lied on the bed and died That's true And then finally 1984 august 10th 1984 Ralph proctor who had been a staunch, awful loyalist just like auto wendell had been Physically attacked during this intimidation campaign in the in the months leading up to Hoffa's disappearance proctor Just like wendell had a falling out with vince mailie Um related to teamsters union activity Maley his his at that point mailies Tie into the teamsters was through the the steel hauling industry. He vince mailie controlled all steel hauling in this area and uh proctor Was having issues with the union over some money that had been lent proctor had lent They wanted to open up another teamsters local. They didn't have the money for it. So proctor gave like a 200 000 dollar loan To be paid back It wasn't being paid back. He was telling The mob you need to pay me back my money. I'm not going to go quietly without Collecting the money. They basically told him you're not going to get your money back shut your mouth And proctor started making some threats Roland McMaster another name from the Hoffa case shows up at proctor's office a day or two before he's killed and and Tells his son To tell your dad to shut his mouth. He's upsetting some very dangerous people. Yeah, and then proctor I don't really want to get into who the suspects are because that will take us down a whole Other rabbit hole, but I will tell you that The suspects in this murder are Still around And are still alleged to be active. Yeah running the detroit mafia in 2022. Yeah, it's another good reason not to mention Right Ralph proctor left his house on august 10th 1984 to go meet with a couple of these individuals at a chinese restaurant in lavonia And was killed in his car was shot at two separate angles He was in a I believe he was in the driver's seat and he got shot by someone behind him and he got shot by someone next to him Yeah, it's very like Vince Maley was In prison at the time But had agreed To have an interview him and and his son-in-law Had agreed to be interviewed by the fbi and then I think a couple hours before the interview they pulled the plug And that murder has never been solved So those are the five fallout murders Um, I think we did a pretty good job of of giving the lay of the land in terms of where we stand in the jimmy Off a case right now. Yeah. Well, this was fun. Thanks for listening everyone again Please follow us on social media. Please subscribe. Please spread the word And we'll bring you more great content next week. Thank you. I'm jimmy butchilado. Thank you scott bernstein scott bernstein out Ben Roberto See you guys