 I'm Scott Rouse. I'm a body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language. And I created the number one online body language course, BodyLanguageTactics.com with Greg Hartley. Mark? Mark Bowden, I'm an expert in human behavior and body language, help people all over the world to stand out, win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase? Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years in the U.S. military. I wrote the number one bestselling book on influence, persuasion and behavior profiling. I teach that to intelligence agencies and the general public today. Greg? Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator and interrogation instructor, resistance interrogation instructor, written 10 books on body language and behavior. Put together the number one BodyLanguageTactics.com course with Scott Rouse. And I spend my time in business. All right, today we're going to talk about the rail brook. And there's so much information that comes with it. I'm not going to talk much. Greg, why don't you tell us about him? Yeah, so let's just cut to the chase. The most important part is that he is called a walk shop Christmas parade, whatever they call him killer. But he drove through a crowd, was convicted of driving to that crowd. I think he just received a very harsh sentence. I think life in prison. This interrogation is hours after the act occurred. This interrogation went on for five hours. Brooks had a history of mental illness, including starting at 11 years old. He was diagnosed as bipolar at 12. He was put into a mental hospital and had a lot of violent, violent run ins with the law over time around assault of all kinds. Go and look his record up. He's got a long, long, long rap sheet. You've heard it before, so you had to understand that. Yes, sir. Okay. Do you have any questions before I start for me? All you think I want to know is what in the hit it might be in charge of anything. Well, she's making some, like I said, alleged allegations against you kind of, you know, for being physical. So that's what, you know, that's BS. That's what I'm looking to hear from you. You know what I'm saying? And that's kind of, we couldn't track your down, so that's kind of where we're at. It's just typical back and forth stuff that guys like you go through with their baby mama all the time. And they're all, you know, there's a lot of guys out there in your spot, you know. And a lot of times, you know, maybe it's not always fair to them, but that's kind of what I wish they had a law to where people, if you do that, you should get in trouble. Sure. Yeah. Like why? You shouldn't be able to just be like, oh, I'm pissed off. So I'm going to call and do this. Why would you put me in that situation? And being, you know, we're going to end up being together anyway. And why would you do that? Trying to judge that credibility. Yeah. And that's total BS. That's why we're sitting here with you to try to, to siphon through sister of the BS. If that's what we got. Does that make sense? Yeah. All right. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is actually going to be one of my favorites we've done in a while, because this is a really good example of how interrogation really works. And we're going to see him starting right off. Both people have something to gain. Both people are trying to get information. This guy right out of the gate starts off with some guilty knowledge. What am I being charged with? He knows this is not about the girlfriend. He thinks it's about something else, but he's trying to figure it out. Is he trying to figure out how many people died? What's he trying to figure out? We can't tell, but he's smart. He's street savvy. He's probably had this same kind of interaction with the police before. Watch him as he talks through this. He's trying to be helpful. He's trying to be friendly. He's fishing. He's trying to get information. His browser up and his illustrators are in time with his message. His adapters are there as his leg starts balancing. And this mask is actually helping him. If you don't believe that, when he has a stressful moment, you'll push that mask up. This interrogator is the kind that I refer to as concentric circles interrogation, meaning his questioning is going to get progressively tighter and progressively tighter and progressively tighter until he gets what he wants. Dora Vasquez-Helner, one of my favorite army interrogators that I did a show called We Can Make You Talk for History Channel with, is very much this kind of interrogation approach. She can break people with just questions and a good questioner can do that. This is a first step. He's trying to put this guy at the scene. This feels like an interrogation. You can feel a glass wall between the two people as one's trying to get information from the other and the other's trying to get information from him at the same time. That's often how it goes. And then you see exaggerate him exaggerate his movement as he steps into his first ploy. Because what this guy's trying to do is say you were with your girlfriend and she was here. He's trying to put him at the scene. So good start. Scott, what do you got? All right. I agree with it. He's doing recon at the top. He's trying to find out. That's why throughout this he'll be saying, what am I going to charge with? What's going on here? What's happening? Because he's just waiting for that thing for the other shoe to drop. And they're using this, just like you said, to make sure they can prove he was there. As we go through this, one of the things to pay attention to are his illustrators. I'm all the time talking about illustrators because they're important. Those are the things we use. If your hands, your head, your eyebrows to emphasize specific words or phrases. As we go through this, we'll watch them get really big and watch them get really small. And we'll watch them end up in spots they shouldn't when he uses his illustrators. Instead of doing this, he'll do this. And they'll be happening when there are no words. But we'll talk about that as we go along. As we go through this, we'll also see his voice becomes animated. It's going at a pretty good clip and it's really loud. And he's much louder than the interrogator. So let's listen for it to go up and down as we go through this. Because we'll be able to gauge the amount of stress he's under. That's one of the things we'll be able to use to have a better understanding of what kind of stress he's under. And even though he's trying to show he's worried about this domestic violence situation, he knows that the other thing is coming. It has to be. I mean, he's hoping it isn't. But it has to be. That's why he commits so hard to this domestic violence thing and acts like it's such a horrible thing. It is horrible. Domestic violence is horrible. But he goes a little bit too far with it, trying to make it a really big deal as in comparison to what he's in trouble for. That he's really going to talk to him about. So let's pay attention to everything from his hands to his head to his mouth. It's covered most of the time. But you'll see when he pulls his mask off, let's pay attention to all that stuff as we go through. Because all that's going to start changing as we move along. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So I think a lot of people have asked for this, you know, not only because of the current nature of it, but also they've gone, hey, this guy's got a mask on and the camera angle is at a certain angle. And what do you do when you can't see the face so well? Well, we can always see all kinds of little elements in there. And you're going to see us all pick up on that. But this is a great opportunity for me to go, okay, so I just won't look at the face at all. I'm going to focus completely on what his hands are doing and what the bigger kind of what I would call the gross body is doing. That's not because all of us can't pick up things that are happening in the face. But I thought it'd be interesting to kind of thin slice stuff even thinner. What information can you get from a really thin slice? Now, there's a risk in this, which is the slices too thin. And I would never say, hey, make the slice really thin. But what a great opportunity just to narrow it down. So let me narrow it down for you. Really tight elbows in there that we can see. Okay, so we can see that he's already protecting this ventral area, vulnerable area here. So under some stress there, we can see anxiety in the leg. You'll see his hand bob up and down. That's because the leg is moving. Could be could be drugs that he could be taking at the time, though it's not really continual. So I'm going to say there's elements that are talked about that you get this little kind of leg jiggle that amplifies in the hand. So a moment of stress there. Look at this head wobble that goes on there. Seems very indirect. I think that's because he's trying to work out like which crime are you going for at the moment? So he's trying to assess the situation. He reels back on that accusation. But it seems like it's a bit to pronounce that reel back. I think it might be even surprised as to which accusation is coming at him just then. And then we get the hand to the hand to the forehead here. It looks like, but I think it's a full eye block there as he also submits to gravity. The whole body goes down. So straight off the bat, looking at the whole body here and kind of ignoring what we could see in the eyes or the face. I see somebody already confused slightly looking for what's going on and under stress already. But Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so I'm going to break down the interrogator for a minute. And one thing I'm going to do what Greg told you a second ago. This is a great interrogation. We're witnessing some awesome stuff. I'm going to give you some things that could have been different, not even better per se. But in my opinion, some of the things that could have been different, some things that went well. The first thing is the seating arrangement. The seating arrangement should almost never be done this way. Ideally, the rule of thumb is you want no more than a corner of the table in between you. So if anything, that's what you want. And as an example, the interrogation of this kid who was a shooter named Nicholas Cruz had a great arrangement where the interrogator and the suspect were both on the same side of the table. They were together on the same side. So when he confirms that it's BS, we see a postural retreat. We see almost a two o'clock eye accessing movement, confirmation glance to the other interviewer. There's some rapid left and right eye movement there. There's some facial touching with this mask things that Scott, you were talking about. There's a rapid increase in difference from his otherwise predictable behavior. And what we see here that Mark was just talking about, the elbows coming in. This is I call elbow retraction. When our bodies are doing stuff that's fear based, you'll see the skeleton protect arteries, skeleton protecting arteries. So this elbows move in and we're protecting this artery right here called the brachial. And we see somebody get their crap scared out of them on YouTube, their shoulders go up like this, their arms come in. So our body automatically starts protecting these arteries. And that's kind of one of the things we're going to see here and we're going to see that again. So I think there's a high likelihood that there is something off here and should be maybe asking some more questions, which we'll get into. And when he says a lot of guys out there are in your spot, he's emphasizing the commonality of a situation to reduce the stress. And this is an interrogation is called socializing. We call that socializing. I watched this video first with no idea what's coming next. So my notes here contain essentially a behavioral profile that we can use later. The socially intelligent makes eye contact with both interviewers at key moments where he desires agreement from them, comfortable using profanity while still showing respect to them, has a semi fearful demeanor. His hands were kept under the table almost the whole time, showed discomfort when moving toward the other interviewers and when placing his hands on the table, which belongs to the interviewers. So let's just take that quick behavioral baseline and go from here. Any questions before I start for me? All you think I want to know is what in the hell are we in charge of anything? Well, she's making some, like I said, alleged allegations against you kind of, you know, for being physical. So that's what, you know, if that's the yes, that's what I'm looking to hear from you. Oh, you know what I'm saying? And that's kind of, we couldn't track her down. So that's kind of where we're at. It's as typical back and forth stuff that guys like you go through with their baby mama all the time and they're all, you know, there's a lot of guys out there in your spot, you know. And a lot of times, you know, maybe it's not always fair to them, but that's kind of what I would say. You stand out of awe to where people, if you do that, you shouldn't get in trouble. Sure. Yeah. Like why? You shouldn't be able to just be like, oh, I'm pissed off. So I'm going to call and do this. Yes. Like that's, why would you put me in that situation? And then, you know, we're going to end up being together anyway. Why would you do that? Trying to drive that credibility. Yeah. And that's total BS. So that's why I'm, that's why we're sitting in here with you to try to, to siphon through, sift through the BS. If that's what we got. Just go for it. Hey man. Does that make sense? Yeah. All right. Now, what brought you to walk and try history? How did you get out here? I was meeting up with a friend to watch the pepper game. Oh, that's the only reason why I was out here. Where did you go to watch the game? To a friend named Stephanie. Your house, a bar? Or a house. Anyhow, I don't mean to make you uncomfortable or anything, but what's the address there? What's your name? I have no idea about what we saw. I don't know the street. What was it near? I know you had to see something near it. So what was it near? Like a gas station. Have you been to the house before? No. Never before? No. What's Stephanie's last name? I have no idea. No idea. When did you guys set this up? Um, maybe a couple days ago. Okay. Like I said, I have a few friends. I have a few friends in Milwaukee that have people out here. So it's not, I don't, like I said last night, I don't know the streets and Walker Shaw is not where I usually hang out at. So I couldn't say, well, this street, this street, and it's, you know, I couldn't. All right. Stephanie, like a friend of yours? Is there like a friend or a friend? A friend of a friend, a true friend. And what's your last name was? I have no idea. How long have you known her? That was my first time meeting her. All right. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So we're getting a lot of what I would call supplicant palms. So these palms of, you know, hey, give me a break or hand me something, some palms that could kind of hold something up. But I can see from above, we're getting a lot of double shoulder shrug as well. Kind of like, hey, you know, what can you do? And he puts that together with, I have no idea. In fact, he's got straight palms down here. I got no idea. I think with him, what we get is when he's, when he knows he needs to lie, he becomes way more direct. There's way more line of energy in there. When he knows this is a lie that I need to tell. Otherwise, when he's, he's still lying, but when it's not so important, he's just more erratic, more staccato. And that, if it were any other situation from this, this might be that you kind of didn't, you didn't know that he's lying most of the time or being deceptive most of the time. Could be a bit of a problem because usually you'd expect these strong lines of energy to be honest. Usually you might expect, you know, these supplicant gestures and this gesture of, hey, what are you going to do to be more honest? The difference here is the change in energy, the change in how dramatic he is, how indirect he is when he's kind of unpurposedly lying and how direct and energetic he is when he knows he needs to win this lie. So look at the difference here between staccato and indirect and when he's more direct and more energized. That for me is a deviation from baseline and therefore for me says we should pay more attention to what he's saying in these more energized direct areas. I think what I take from this particular excerpt is he thinks his tactic of I have no idea is going to work for him. He's quite pleased with that tactic and we see him play it a couple of times in this one and I think we're going to see it further down the line as well. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so I get questions all the time about what does resistance to interrogation mean. The best possible resistance training is inoculation. By that I mean the more times you're exposed, the less likely you are to fall for it. This guy's been exposed and I can see it in the way he's responding. Interestingly, he came with information prepared. You can tell he's emphatic when he's prepared. Boom, boom, boom, boom. But he only iteratively releases information as he's asked a question. So when you ask him a friend, boom. There are short, short sentences when he's not prepared to answer. Like did you know her name? No, no, I didn't know her name. Too much information, more words. That shows you and you can see the difference. He stammeres when he's doing that instead of delivering with quick dropped information. My favorite thing and I talk about this all the time with people. Scott, you talk about timing of illustrators. I talk about out of frame illustrators. The fish was that big. Well, people don't do that. They hold their hands in front of them when they're talking. Maybe he has an anomaly, not likely, because we'll see him using his hands other times in front of him. When he's talking about his friend, his hands are out of frame. Does that head bobble thing again, which is neither a yes or a no? I think anytime you see this guy poorly planned, you're going to see him stammer and move around and you'll see him close up. Now this thing where you're talking about elbows to the side. Chase, I take another approach, similar, but another approach. I say we're the only mammal that walks around with our soft white underbelly unprotected. So when something happens, as importantly as those arteries, there's a liver and a whole bunch of stuff that a sword would cut through or stick with gouge and people make an exoskeleton. Got a great example of that in my hit theater history where a guy panicked and stuck his head up and got cracked in the head with a sword. So when people are feeling that stress they're going to do something and he closes his elbows to his side, holds his hands up like, what can I do and shrinks his head in? Well, the difference is his elbows are locked when he does it. So it looks really weird. I kind of think I could put a name to that and call it Franken-turtling. But whatever he's doing, he's turtling what we would call shrinking your head and making your space much smaller. And then he does a request for approval. Hard to see a lot of facial expression that raising my brow when I'm asking you to believe something. And I have no idea of her last name and I just put that's because she ain't got one. He didn't make it up. There's congruent messaging. You want to know what his normal messaging looks like. He goes back to say, I don't know the streets here. That's his normal. So we got a baseline for talking about something he has no reason to lie about and we see him iteratively releasing information and then exploding to try to justify. Love the nervous laugh when he has to justify something. Chase, what do you got? Yeah. So as from a baseline perspective, if we can do that with this video since it's full of crazy stuff, there's he's accessing apparently genuine geography at around 11 o'clock when he's saying something. So I would assume that there's some genuineness to that. And he mentions his friend and he motions all the way to his right with both hands. So make a mental note of that. He motioned to his right side with both hands. Make a note of that. One other thing to take note of here is how rapidly he shifts between the interviewers when they ask questions. And this is called threat locking. This is like I hear a tiny peep out of one person and I rapidly move my eyes and head to that where that sound came from. So when someone rapidly moves their eyes or their body to adjust in a social situation, it indicates a higher than normal level of stress. Most of the time that you're going to see this in your life is when someone's experiencing social anxiety. You'll see these rapid movements at a party or a networking event, especially at a networking event. But occasionally you'll see it during deception, which I think we're seeing here. The stress goes up and he has to lock on instantaneously to what those people are saying because they are a potential threat. But they've presented themselves as good interrogators as a source of value and protection. So they represent both sides of threat and rescuer at the same time, which any good interrogator should be. Scott? All right. When the interviewer says or asks him, how did you get here? His arm covers his stomach and it freezes there. And this is a barrier. Again, protecting himself as well. I'm sure his limbic system is just going wild on, off, on, off, and on and staying on. It's got to be a very stressful form and we see that on him. Now, when we focus on his illustrators, this entire interview is a fantastic study of how they how illustrators are supposed to lock up with the words you're saying, but they don't. And that's because he's got cognitive dissonance going on. He's got so many things. He's structuring his story and hoping it's matching up with what he said before. He's got to remember what Ollie said, make sure everything's still laying in place and he has to lay anything else in there. Then it has to work with that because the interrogator is doing a great job. He'll ask him things that would happen way in the future and sort of work his way back a little bit, which is beautiful him doing this because then he has to think stuff up and then lay it in there. So he's really watching his words and watching how he talks to make sure that he has the right puzzle parts to put in this puzzle that's going to be a story. Now, quite often, but not every time, when someone is speaking and their illustrators don't land where they're supposed to, that suggests that they're being dishonest, that suggests they're being deceptive. And here we're seeing it writ large. Now, Outer Bray is a body language, I guess you'd almost call him a scientist at this point. And from his studies, we found out that the person who is being honest is more likely to use more illustrators and the person who's being deceptive uses less illustrators. But we're seeing him go nuts on this one because he's overdoing it. He's overplaying. He knows he has to make these statements and make them stick or he wants to. So they're too big. And you guys are referring to his open hands like this. I refer to that as mercy hands because, oh, God, please believe me. Please believe what I'm saying. It's not like this. It's not like this, but it's like this. And the palms are forward a little bit like that. So that's when you see that. That usually tells me, or that's when I always keep focusing on how many times it pops up. That says, for me, that's a deceptive cue. I don't know if I would count on it every time, but it sure pops up a lot around those situations. Another thing about illustrators, I'm going to focus on those during this whole thing. We know this guy's lying. We already know he's lying. It's a great study to see how these things, when they don't land where they're supposed to, how we can look at his illustrators. And we already know we understand the veracity of them because they're not worth anything because he's making this stuff up as he goes along some of it. And making sure, like I said before, all the puzzle pieces match. So keep paying attention to his illustrators, how he's using them. And when he starts, like Greg was saying earlier, they go to one side and they're way out of frame when he does those. It's so important because these are being overdone and they're too big. And when you see someone doing that, it doesn't mean they're lying to you. It doesn't mean they're telling you the truth, but you'll get that little feeling in there that tells you something's just not right. And you'll get that feeling as you probably already have watching this. So remember that feeling you've got. If you see it again, don't say, oh, I know they're lying because I feel that way, but continue to look for other things, the other things we talk to you about and teach you so you can start making the correct decision for yourself. No. What brought you to Waukesha yesterday? How did you get out here? I was meeting up with a friend to watch the pepper game. That's the only reason why I was out here. Where did you go to watch the game? To a friend named Stephanie. Her house? A bar? A house. Yeah, I don't mean to make you uncomfortable or anything, but what's the address there? What's your name on it? I had no idea about what we saw. I don't know the street. What was it near? I know you had to see something near it. So what was it near? Like a gas station. Have you been to the house before? No. Never before? No. What's Stephanie's last name? I have no idea. I have no idea. When did you guys set this up? Maybe a couple of days ago. Okay. Like I said, I have a few friends. I have a few friends in Milwaukee that have people out here, so it's not, like I said last night, I don't know the streets in Walker Shaw. It's not where I usually hang out at, so I couldn't say, well, this street, this street, and this, you know, I couldn't. All right, Stephanie, like a friend of yours or like a friend of a friend? A friend of a friend, a true friend. And what's your last name was? I have no idea. How long have you known her? That was my first time meeting her. How did you get the number to know the house to go to? A friend. A friend. Hey, so how did you get to her house? My friend. I went with my friend. Okay, who's that? My friend. I don't really want to say his name. I don't know if that's going to curbed him or anything. Okay, so let's go with this. How did you come? I know you saw Erica yesterday in Walker Shaw because we talked to her. Now, I don't know everything that went on. I'm not saying I believe everything she told the other officers. How did you come to meet with her in Walker Shaw? And two, you say you don't know Walker Shaw, but where did you meet her? A gas station, a park. I know you met her. Where did you meet her? What happened yesterday? Because if this is BS, like you say, and I know you met her, what happened? I met her. What happened to you met her? Where did you meet her? Let's start with that. By a gas station. Okay. I don't know what I was supposed to be getting some money from her. How did, okay. For what? It was the rest of my money that she had of mine that she was holding for me. Okay, how much? It was supposed to be $350. Okay. And all right, Chase, what do you got? A few videos ago, I said that this guy was socially intelligent. And I say this because there's a reason he represented himself in court. Either he's a moron or he has probably won every argument with anybody he's ever tried to argue with in his life, which gave him artificial confidence that he could do this. Dude, I got that in my notes too. I don't think he's a moron. I really don't. He's a POS, but definitely not a moron. But we're still seeing this right side reference to describe things and keep a note of that. When he speaks about the money she's holding for him, there's a very, very clear gesture to his left using both hands, complete opposite side. And it's out of frame gesture like Greg was just teaching you about, which means based on the way he usually speaks, there's a drop in the ability to formulate or produce sentences in this called a loss of fluency. So his fluency also drops at that exact point. He becomes less fluent. After this gesture, he pulls his hands into his stomach. This is in this weird way. And this kind of seems unusual, probably to you too. And this may not be deception, but it's definitely a place where elicitation and more questioning would need a very sharp increase. And right at this $350 moment, there's more deviation here. There's upward tone, fading facts, which you might hear from Scott all about. Maybe Scott will tell us about that. There's hesitancy. There's distancing language where he said, uh, and then supposed to be. And as an interrogation note, legal pads and pins are typically a bad idea in interrogation room. The more permanent the notes you're taking appear to the other person, the more official and permanent those two words. You want your notes to be unofficial and non permanent, which means small scrap of paper that you tore in half and using a pencil makes it appear less formal and less permanent. And it's easier to take notes while the person's talking because they don't feel like it's being permanently inscribed on something that's official. That's all I got for this one. Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So let's talk about interrogation. Those are good pointers. I think, but let's talk about interrogation and differences. If you're doing a full blown intelligence interrogation, it's really normal to have some kind of record keeping. The other thing to use it for as a prop, I might like leave this there for you to get feeling like you have some power when you tear it up as I come back in and go, yeah, that's all recorded. Hope you had a good time. But yeah, I know you're just incriminating yourself. So there's a lot of reasons you might use it and other reasons you might not. So, and I think Chase's point, there's a very good one. They're more liable to say something if they don't think you're writing it down and that's important. But if you're doing a long drawn out interrogation, sometimes you'll see these guys do it. So just give them a pass in that. Here's an interesting one for you. He leans back and exposes his throat. Now we always tell you that people often will close up and cover their throat when they're feeling threatened. This is where culture matters. Culture really matters here. Because if he lives in a culture where that means, no, I'm being defiant and he's throwing his chin up and he's, then that becomes part of it. So you got to pay attention and say, you can lie with your chin up. It's just not as common. When you see a false interrogate, a false confession often interrogation, you'll see you got his chin up confessing. And we're going to talk about confession dynamics as we get closer to the end of this because there's a couple of places where they could have done something and maybe gotten a little bit further. But this guy's a master of what he's doing. And Chase, I agree with you. I had the same thing. He's probably one of most of the arguments he's ever been in. He just doesn't know the rules. That's what I always say. If you get arrested, get a lawyer because you don't know the rules. And you can't argue if you don't know how to play the game. What's interesting though is with his throat unprotected, he starts to show clusters, which is what we look for, a behavior that indicates something is changing. One is that nervous head bob and he starts and stops sentences, what I call cadence deviations. As he's going through, he'll stop to hesitate and create new details. That nervous laugh and that crossing the abdomen are his insecurity moments. You're going to see it over and over and over. So he's protecting his vital organs. And you'll even see him adapting a little bit, meaning releasing nervous energy with his hands as this thing comes up. You could tell, though, he thinks and then he redirects. He's trying to get him off topic at every turn when he talks about something other than the topic they're asking about. When he says it's supposed to be, he's distancing as he makes up how much money they're supposed to be there. And his voice lils up at $350. Look, that's not in his pattern. I would go, hold on a minute. What do you mean? What do you mean it's supposed to be? When he starts to talk about money, his hands roll into him. Don't know that means anything specific, but I would like to know what it means. Because when something that changes that dramatically, there's something going on in somebody's head to cause them to do it. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, well, on that point, yes, we get these broken lines there. What I mean by broken lines is if you've got a strong line of energy, it means you can actually hold stuff and you can defend yourself. Like your hands work much better if joints are straightened out a little bit. The moment all the joints start to break, then you can't do all the things your hands are meant to do. And so we've got this gesture here in at the stomach area, which means certainly he's under a lot of stress at that point because his joints aren't functioning as they should function. He's very unsure, let's say, of what he's saying there. So let's go to the start of this. A friend and he gestures right off as Greg, you've been saying out of frame. It's a really big gesture there. A really big like, let's just move this along. Let's avoid that. So a real kind of redirect on that one there. I don't want to say his name and there's a surrender gesture and then it's very indirect at the same time. A direct surrender gesture would be, I'm not saying his name. I'm not going to tell you. Okay. An indirect one is, I'm not going to say that name. It's rather like a push away gesture that's held back and waving around at the same time. Again, quite distracting and indirect. Get some money from her. Again, there's a surrender and move along out of frame as well. So he's trying to push it along. Oh, by the way, there's some footage just come out a few weeks back of Jeffrey Epstein, which will cover when the full footage comes out. He does these gestures a great deal. Taking the story, moving it along. So subscribe, subscribe, hit that subscribe button and then you'll be around for when that Jeffrey Epstein interview comes out and we will take a good look at that. And that's all I got on that one. So Scott, what do you got on this? All right. When he's asked, I got the number to the house and he says, how did we've heard it before? Like you were saying earlier, Greg, a friend, a friend. He pulls an Alec Baldwin at that point. His illustrator started with both hands again, like you got, but he was saying to sort of rehash and they swing back and forth as he answered. The second time that they happen like that, he doesn't say anything until after the illustrator's executed. So he's got a thought in his mind and it's happening, but he's doing this to help create something in the interviewer's minds to help them think, you know, like that. So when he does that, he's helping to create that feeling of things have changed, things have moved, or whatever it is he's trying to get him to understand and trying to get him to accept that. The explanation of why he was meeting the girls is where we see a dramatic change in his behavior. His cadence slows down, his volume drops, he pauses, and he's pausing because he's creating that story like we were talking about before. He's trying to come up with those puzzle pieces and make sure everything's falling into place. He has to check what he said so far, what the story is so far, because they're going way out here and making him come back here and fill in those little spots. Brilliant technique. It's very subtle, but it's working really well at this point. His words are drawn out and his posture changes as he bends forward. And not only does he bend forward, he comes down like this. I'm under the impression that's more of a protective situation as well. His, once again, his awkward illustrators are really big and they're really awkward, and they're not connecting where they should be. And this time around toward the end where he's talking about his money, then that's where we start hearing fading facts as he starts talking about it. He gets really quiet. That's where everything starts slowing down, his cadence slows down. His words are drawn out and he starts getting really small at that point. So we know it's not true, but that's a great example of seeing exactly what it looks like when you know it's not true. And we've told you about these things a lot of other people before, well, we didn't know if it wasn't true yet, and it's been, it was months later, we found out that it wasn't true. But you can see these things now, since we know this guy's being honest, what these cues and tells look like as we go through. So this is a great study for you guys to be watching. All right, we good? Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna give that one to Greg again. That was good, Chase. You got to get a little stank on it with that face. No, you're just placating. How did you get the number to know the house we go to? A frame. A frame. So how did you get to her house? My frame. I went with my frame. Okay, who's that? My friend. I don't really want to say his name. I don't know if that's going to intimidate him or anything. Okay, so let's go with this. How did you come, I know you saw Erica yesterday in Waukesha, because we talked to her. Now I don't know everything that went on. I'm not saying I believe everything she told the other officers. How did you come to meet with her in Waukesha? One, and two, you say you don't know Waukesha, but where did you meet her? A gas station, a park. I know you met her. Where did you meet her? What happened yesterday? Yeah, yeah. Because if this is BS, like you say, and I know you met her, what happened? I met her. What happened to you met her? Where did you meet her? Let's start with that. By gas station. Okay. I don't know what I was supposed to be getting some money from her. How did, okay. Okay. For what? It was the rest of my money that she had of mine that she was holding for me. Okay. How much? It was supposed to be $350. Okay. And okay. And what did she, why did she have it? Why, why was she holding it? She had been holding it for me for a few weeks now, but like I said, I hadn't seen her. She had seen her mom holding it. Why did she have it? Why was she holding it for you? She was just holding it for me because I told her to hold it for me. But this was, it didn't have anything to do with, this was weeks ago she had been holding the money. And because I had no contact with her, I couldn't tell her and my mom wasn't going to let her come to the house to bring it. And I told her, look man, if I'm going to be out there, I'll meet up with you and get the money, but I'm not hanging out with you. I'm not having sex with you. And she was just like, oh, you want to, I'm like, I'm not going to do none of that. Okay. You know what I'm saying? I'm not supposed to be around you. I get that. I understand that. I'm not going to lie to y'all. I'm not supposed to be around you. I love you to death, man. You're my baby, mom. I'm not going, you know what I'm saying? It wasn't supposed to be like a hangout thing. I told her, I'm like, I'm out here. And she's like, oh, where are you at? Where are you at? Where are you at? And I'm like, look, I'll meet up with you to get the money. And you know, give you a hug or whatever. But she was like, well, do I need something? I'm like, no, we can't do it all that. I'm not going to have sex with you. I'm not going to hang out with you or anything. All right. So you told her you weren't going to do any of that? No. How did you set the meeting up? Did you talk to her on the phone, Facebook Messenger, text message? I'll talk to her. Yeah. I don't think she said anything about that. So just, I mean, if she's BS, how did you, how did you get to be with her? I didn't, she, this is what she does. If you hold on one second. Hold on, one thing at a time. How did you set the meeting with her? How do I verify that? That's what I'm saying. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So as we say, we're always looking for deviations from baseline. And just as Chase was saying, well, you know, where is where is the baseline? Well, we do know he's kind of indirect quite a lot. And then suddenly we'll become quite direct. And though in many cases we go, well, when somebody's being direct, they're more likely to be telling the truth, the reverse can be true in the right situations. And I think for this particular character, when he becomes more direct, it's just a more important lie. He just needs to convince us more. And so he says, I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not going to lie to you. And out comes the hands in supplication. Again, you know, with an offering, essentially, the supplicant comes with an offering. I've got this to give you. I'm not going to lie to you. And suddenly the hands are energized. The lines of energy go right through the hands. And it's that point where I think, yeah, this is you lying. It's the exact opposite of what you're saying. He suggests that she said she needed something. I think what he's suggesting is he's trying to set up the idea that the woman here has asked him for sex, I think. I think that's what's going on. Well, at this particular time, his hands go right underneath his legs on that one. So I would suggest at no point had she got him along to ask for something to go on in that nature. And the whole incident is about something completely different because his fingers go right underneath his legs at that point. I love what you were saying earlier, Chase, about this person has probably won all the arguments that he's ever had. And you can see this quite aggressive, big, grandstanding behavior going on when he really needs to win this argument. But, you know, and is he super bright? Well, he's bright enough in probably the self-medication crowd that he's up against somebody a little more medicated than him that he probably can with the right bombacity win most arguments there. But as we saw in court, he wasn't going to win many arguments in the court pretty much and quite rightly shut him down on that one. But, Scott, what have you got on this one? All right. He directs from why she's holding his money to she's had it for a few weeks. He never says why he gave her the money. He just says she has 300 bucks or something. It's for some unknown reason. She has it. Then he uses his mask as sort of a little adapter at that point. We've seen that a couple of times so far. Usually an adapter, as Joan of Arles says, it's a pacifying behavior. And it's a repetitive behavior, something to help calm you down, something when you're doing like this, when you see those really quick ones like that, like when someone's on TV and they're under stress because they're being asked difficult questions and they may, let's just say they're stressed, they'll just shoot for a quick little thing like that on their face or maybe bite their lip or something really quick. That helps with that. That's the same thing. That's why I would assume that's why they're known as adapters because it's a pacifying behavior, but it's not the repetitive type that Joe's always talking about. Then he says she was holding the money for me because I told her to hold it for me. Well, what are you going to do at that point? Then he attempts the keyword being attempts to chaff and redirect. But this is probably, and I don't know, Greg, I'm going to have to see what you think about this. It's probably the most lame chaff and redirect I've ever heard in my life. Little children do better than this when they're like, I was a professional kid, I've said it before, and I could have done better at three or four years old than this guy's doing at this age at this point. But then again, it shows he's usually lying to people. I'm under the impression as I think you guys are as well. And he wins every time. And maybe these people aren't as smart as he is. Not saying he's very smart, but maybe their intelligence question is a bit lower than his and he's used to talking to him like that and doing that. He's used to getting away with it. That's part of the narcissistic traits or something that we're seeing in his personality type as well. He uses his left hand to help him give the impression that there are many things going on that aren't being addressed at this point. There's a whole lot happening that they're not talking about with the money situation. And obviously there's more to it than that, as we're trying to find out. But again, keep in mind, he's trying to piece this story together. When he's lying, getting to his illustrators, when he's, I think when he's thinking stuff up, that's when we see his hands go low, like you're talking about earlier, Mark, where he's just flat out lying. They just go, they disappeared. They don't disappear down there, but the guys, I think the interviewers can't see him, but they go below his chest and they stay down there. But man, when he's going for it, they get big and he's really trying to make it happen. I think that must be when he's on the run with one, on creating one. But when he's got one sort of set in, that he's thought about, I think his hands go low because there's no question about whether he's lying at that point or not. Greg, what do you got? I'm going to talk more about the interrogation than about his body language. So a couple of things. First of all, yes, he is a pretty bad chaff and redirect guy, but he only tries chaff and redirect really one time. I think the first part where he's talking about no sex, and that has nothing to do with chaff and redirect, what he's doing is trying to trade some guilt. He's trying to say, Hey, I know I had a restraining order and I was bumping up against it because he's fishing to see what they have. Even if you drove through a crowd of people, you might not know how dramatic the charges are. You know, I mean, he could not know how many people were killed or injured or any of that and not know if he has a felony, if he has what, who knows. But he's fishing for that. And there's that glass wall again. He's poking and fishing and prodding while the other guy's poking and fishing and prodding. And he uses a push-pull word, that whole thing about sex. We didn't have any sex or anything. Well, I would say, who said anything about sex in a normal conversation? When a person brings up a negotiation or push-pull word, you always grab that because you can pull them closer to you through the glass wall. This guy doesn't do it. He lets them talk and he does some chaff in there, Scott. But the guy doesn't let him redirect. If you really want to know what matters, and then he becomes kind of righteous about, I didn't do anything I wasn't supposed to with regard to this whole restraining order. But if you watch the detective, you can know what matters. When he starts talking about the sex thing, he, my favorite thing, he puts his pen down, he crosses his arms and he sets certain swivels in his chair. He's not interested, not in the least. And then the guy says, she asked where you at. You see him sit back up, lean back in, because now he just picked up what we would refer to as a source lead. Doesn't matter what I'm trying to get. When you use words that mean something to me, and I know that they'll open the rest of the story, that's called a source lead. And what we do is we lean into that source and we start saying, well, tell me about that. And in this case, I would have said, wait a minute, how the hell did you tell her where you were? If you didn't know where you were 30 seconds ago when I asked you a question, something's wrong. Now you get incongruent to your story. Now you can start to grind on him. And that's what he's headed for. And you can see it as he leans in. He gets interested and then he starts talking to the guy and the guy goes, I don't, this is what she does. That's where he's getting ready really to go in Chaff and to redirect Scott, I think. And this cop is, this detective is on it. And he goes, nope, I'm done with that. I want to know about this. Hold on one thing at a time. That's a powerful way to stop a Chaff and redirect. You can use that in your life. If you don't know what we mean by Chaff and redirect, it's I spew out information until you pick up on something I'm willing to talk about. And then we talk about that rather than the topic at hand. And he stops it right in his tracks. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, that's great. And I agree with y'all. I'm just going to break down, since y'all covered a lot of stuff here, I'm going to break down every single potentially stressful or deceptive behavior here in a row. I'm just going to go through it in a giant row. So let's walk through this. I'm just going to lift it, list it in order of appearance. Failure to answer the question or non-answer statement. Adding irrelevant details times three. The left word gesture is common when anyone's referencing the past. So people typically gesture to their left when referencing the past. So we tend to see timelines from left to right. So we'll see that very commonly in people. So we'll ignore that one for now. Next, a verbal contradiction about inability to contact her. A gestural timing mismatch. A loss of fluency. Bracing on the chair at that very key point. Maybe grabbing that chair or like sticking his hands under his legs maybe I couldn't tell. The interviewer here may very well be aware of all of this and we'll probably circle back to clean all of this stuff up. Some interviewers allow this behavior so that the cleanup is more confrontational once it gets to that point. It depends on the behavior of the suspect more than anything else. But in my interrogation training when I teach interrogation and when I learned interrogation from my training when I went through school there's one phrase I will never forget for the rest of my life which is why I tend to clean up missing information immediately. And that phrase is undetected lying is rewarding. Can I add one comment? When you're interrogating there's a whole lot of social noise and by that I mean if you're a guy who has never lived in the same neighborhood as another guy there's a whole lot of stuff you have to understand that you don't understand. This guy's got a lot of social noise because whatever culture whatever things he's grown up in a lot of times for African Americans dealing with police there's social noise meaning there's an issue with the police officers an issue with the way that culture plays so that there's less eye contact and that kind of thing. So there's a lot of social noise in this guy that we can't overlook and we have to say his culture and the cop's culture may not match, may not mesh and that cop has to be keenly aware of that not to make some kind of projection. It's a big part of it. And why did she have it? Why was she holding it? She had been holding it for me for a few weeks now but like I said I hadn't seen her. She had seen Mom hold it. Why did she have it? Why was she holding it for you? She was just holding it for me because I told her to hold it for me but it didn't have anything to do with this was weeks ago she had been holding the money and because I had no contact with her I couldn't tell her and my mom wasn't going to let her come to the house to bring it and I told her look man if I'm going to be out there I'll meet up with you and get the money but I'm not hanging out with you I'm not having sex with you and she was just like oh you want it too? I'm like I'm not going to do none of that. Okay. You know what I'm saying? I'm not supposed to be around you. I get that I understand that I'm not going to lie to y'all I'm not supposed to be around you. I love you to death man you're my baby mom I'm not going you know what I'm saying? It wasn't supposed to be like a hang out thing. I told her I'm like I'm out here and she's like oh where are you at I'm like look I'll meet up with you to get the money and you know give you a hug or whatever but she was like well do I need something? I'm like no we can't do it all that I'm not going to have sex with you I'm not going to hang out with you or none of that. All right so you told her you weren't you weren't going to do any of that? No. How did you set the meeting up? Did you talk to her on the phone? Facebook Messenger? Text message? I'll talk to her. Yeah I don't think she said anything about that so just I mean if she's BS how did you how did you get to be with her? I didn't she this is what she does. Hold on one second hold on one thing at a time how did you set the meeting with her? How do I bear with her? That's what I'm saying that's what that's what I'm saying she if she can't get in touch with me that's what she'll do she'll go to social medias and do all this and try to talk to people and all this and that I got in contact with her through a mutual friend that we both know and I was like okay tell her I'm out in Waukesha or whatever and I meet up with her to get the money and then she put us on the call and she was just like where are you at? Yeah and she was just like where are you at? I'm like look I don't know where I'm at do you still got that money? She's like yeah I want to give you the money and I wonder if I want to do this and do that I'm like no I'm not finna have I'm not finna hang out with you I'm gonna meet up with you get the money give you a hug and kiss we'll talk later was it still daylight? it was still daylight it was still daylight so this was I think the game was still on it was on the game was still on like Stephanie used to go yep the game was still on so I was like you know what I mean I want to see you I ain't seen you in like a month you know what I'm saying so I'm not gonna lie I said man that's my baby mama I love this one but I can't hang out with you I can't do anything with you you know that type of thing dealing whatever the case may be but yeah that and this is on all right chase what do you got I think the behavior right at the beginning is potentially truthful he's using his left side to reference her behavior and his right side to discuss his own behavior this lets us know potentially that using our left hand like this which is on his right to describe things that he did and using our right hand which is on his left to describe the actions of baby mama will help to get more connection and more information flowing because we're agreeing with where he gesturally references these things this is also going to help when we get closer to confession time and we're going to start those confession techniques which we typically don't talk about on this channel I'm going to reveal the five step confession protocol here in just a few minutes that maybe Scott's going to cut my head off for that so when he's referencing this inability and unwillingness to meet up with baby mama or have sex with her this is the only time we see a gesture completely centered around his crotch but this is not genital protection this is genital framing and it's unconscious so he's drawing the hands right down on the crotch during this time in the video I want you to see if you can spot that exact moment when it happens Scott, what do you got? I'll just edit it out I just can't, I don't want to edit it out okay I think these are great examples of how a deceptive person is using body language as a qualifier qualifiers are the things people use when they're telling the lie and you ask them a question and when they lie you just sit there and wait and don't say anything and they keep adding things to it where were you last night or why were you late to the cooking class last night? I was late last night but I had to run two errands that I had to get done if I didn't get them done then that would meant that the next day you know all of our kids would have you know wouldn't be able to do their stuff and my car's having problems they just keep adding things to the thing to prop up their answer to make it sound more believable and that's what he's doing with his body language here is he's doing these big gestures of you understand what I'm saying you know what I mean those kind of things this is such a great example of illustrators and somebody all we've talked about so far this is going to be a great lesson some of these things I want to use in training actually the non-verbal additives of his hands and his head when he's gesturing those should be words we're seeing that that's what I'm talking about before where he's using those as qualifiers I'm going to leave it there because I'm just going to keep talking I've got a whole list of qualifier things this is going to it's going to get boring it's going to start repeating Mark what do you got yeah so let's thin slice it even more because we don't even need to look at any of the gestures we don't need to look at the face at all all we need to get a sense of is the rhythm and the rhythm tends to come from the tension in the muscles and so what I've done in my muscles as I'm talking to you right now is I've tensed them all up for no kind of reason and you get that kind of rapid delivery of just content of just filling of air like you're getting from him at the moment and if I just soften all those muscles and let them relax then everything just kind of slows down after a while so look you can just look at that just look at his body what you can see and go is it significantly more tense across the board is there more tension a higher tension state in there in fact I would say the tension state that is in right now is one that I call there's a bomb in the room is there's a threat there think about that moment where you go where you've been looking for the bomb and suddenly you see it and how much tension would go into your body at that point because there's a threat and then imagine you have to fill the air with content that's what we're getting from him right now and it's a significant difference so I would say a big deviation or escalation from the baseline there as Greg what do you got on this one yeah a couple of things I'm not going to cover everything you've covered already but when people are accustomed to talking to get themselves out of a vine they will talk and that's what we're seeing this guy we talk about him winning arguments it probably isn't even winning arguments he might be a pothead and that kind of stuff but what he has done is know how to talk talk talk talk talk talk and move himself out of the way I worked with a guy who had been an undercover drug guy in New York City for decades you couldn't get a word in edgewise with this guy and the reason was because that's how he stayed alive he talked talk talk talk talk and kept moving things along this guy's doing that he's being helpful look at his hands I'm being helpful when he's thrown a bone about daylight when he says was it still daylight yeah it was still daylight but watch his hands drop down under the table and go to batter on deck as I refer to it when this is the biggest adapter you can possibly do is rub both your thighs at the same time when we say an adapter I have a different term for it than being comforting that when Joe talks about repetitious repetitious I think an adapter is simply making the uncomfortable or unknown comfortable if I do the same thing in a different location it makes me feel the same way and I've watched it many times you take a person out of the wild where we capture them you put them in in a cage and you watch those things become more and more pronounced because they're taking control of the environment they're in he does more of this declaration of compliance with the law hey look I followed a letter of the law with this restraining order but I think he's still picking the lesser crime because then even if you go well you were not supposed to be there it gives him something to talk about I keep him away but what he doesn't realize and what people do when they're used to talking their way out of things is they talk themselves back into things sometimes we would call him a barracks lawyer or something a little bit more unkind but he is trying to outthink and outwit but he's in the process putting himself right back where they want him and that's in the vicinity of the action so he's talked himself right into a hole that's what we're seeing here that's what that's what I'm saying she if she can't get in touch with me that's what she'll do she'll go to social medias and do all this and try to talk to people and all this and that I got in contact with her through a mutual friend that we both know and I was like okay tell her I'm out in Waukesha or whatever and I meet up with her to get the money and then she put us on the call and she was just like where you at yeah and she was just like where you at I'm like look I don't know where I'm at do you still got that money she's like yeah I want to give you the money and I want to do this and do that I'm like no I'm not finna hang out with you I'm gonna meet up with you get the money give you a hug and kiss we'll talk later was it still daylight it was still daylight it was still daylight so this was I think the game is still on the game is still on like Stephanie used to go yep the game is still on so I was like you know what I mean I want to see you I ain't seen you in like a month you know what I'm saying so I'm not gonna lie I said man that's my baby mama I love this one but I can't hang out with you I can't do anything with you you know that type of thing dearly whatever the case may be but yeah that and this is on whatever the case may be but yeah that and this is on your cell phone the three-way call obviously it's your cell phone because you're not my friend's phone friend's phone yeah but yesterday so do you have your phone no that's what I'm saying no so who is the friend who swole and you were using to talk to her around a three-way call I don't want to say his name because I don't want to okay I guess so you saw her though right you met up with her okay so how did the conversation with your end with me walking off and her being pissed off that I didn't want to hang out with her I said look I'm not supposed to be around you I'm gone when she said I used to get out she said I didn't I didn't have a car so whose car did you use to get to walkie shop my friend my friend is the one that said he was going to go hang out watch the pepper damn I said I'm going to go with okay whose car did you use to get out to walkie shop I didn't use anybody's car where does your friend live my friend lives in walking so you didn't walk to walkie shop whose car did you guys use my friend I just said my friend what type of car is he on I'm just trying to figure out how you got here yeah I know but it seemed like you trying to like spank me up or something like I'm just asking how you got here whose car did you Mark what do you got yeah so they're right on top of him now here's what suggests it to me is his arms come let's see if I can do it hang on right in like there we go right in like that to cover his belly he's now covering his elbow joints here and his fingers have tucked away that's a massive deviation I don't believe you've seen him do that at all anywhere else and he tucks right in so huge deviation and protection he's protecting the belly area here if that gets damaged he's in big trouble if something takes control of his elbows then you know he hasn't got control of this part of his arm if something takes control of his fingers or damages those he's in big trouble so super protective at that point and then there's a retreat back and a slap from him a retreat back and a sound we haven't heard a lot of that slap before maybe just once I think and that again would suggest to me that this issue that's being talked around of the car at the moment is significant well we know it's significant but if we didn't know it's significant at this point we'd know we were onto something around the vehicle because of that retreat back and the slap and those protective measures huge deviation from his normal quite strange behaviors Chase what do you think on this one yeah that was one of the first things I picked up on and right at the how did the conversation with her end there's the belly protection with the wrist turning inward leaning forward so we have the belly protection which is the only place our rib cages don't cover so we're soft they call it the soft white underbelly but we have artery protection too the wrists the the brachial arteries are all being protected so we have artery protection and belly protection occurring at the same time and not just the arms coming up the leaning downward like this brings the rib cage down to protect all of those organs and this is a natural response it's not conscious this is the strongest deception or stress that we've seen yet or at least the likelihood of it and he got a lot more comfortable the moment the question was asked about the car so there was something that happened that made him comfortable toward the end of the video and you can see it happen you can see all of that all that protection go away and he gets comfortable at that moment see if you can identify what it what it might be Greg yeah I'm not sure if it's real comfort or feigned comfort not really sure Chase because there's there's one thing in there that makes me wonder and that's he goes to an oblique angle and he goes to internal voice so I'm not sure if it's intentional and maybe this is something that's been successful for him but I see exactly what you see that open and change that that was on my list so there's a few things going on here he's distancing he's he is evading and he is delaying if you can't see those three you can't interrogate so what he's doing first by distancing we always say Chase you talk about separation well this is six degrees of separation in the opposite direction this is not trying to get closer I made a three-way phone call not on my phone on my friend's phone call so that that's the only way I could get through to him this sounds like counter-terror stuff where nobody knows anybody they have to get through third-way calls so there's the first one that is distancing he doesn't answer the question he's using all of this complexity to delay because the event he cares about is about to come up that's where it gets hot we said what happened at the end of that now we got a problem because now he's being moved to the event that occurred where he drove angrily away and drove over the people so now we got a point where he has to get some way of getting away from the discussion when he when he does that cross in that self-hug mark I'm with you he's protecting as much as he can I don't think he even knows how he's very careful not to admit any use of the car it's even abnormal conversation for him if you pay attention this could be a great chance time for this detective to change drives and instead of saying what kind of car did you drive to say how did you get there and so now you force the guy to answer your question whose car was he driving then you see that the sheriff or the detective kind of loses interest and realize it's time to back off from all that and then he gets it he starts poking on him and asking questions about what happened at the end of you talking to her you see that dramatic difference then you see him go into that evasive move and then he comes back out with that explosive why are you trying to spin me up that's all in my opinion that's all something he's done many times this is you hear me say a million times the organism does what made the organism successful Chase this is probably how he won his arguments wait a minute crazy guy in the room I'm going to back off on this one but we see a very big difference at that one crux of the matter now they're closing those concentric circles we talked about and we're starting to see it tighten up and he can feel it Scott what do you got all right I agree you could feel him getting unboxed in there and that corner I agree with Chase we're right out of the gate here when you're Chase we were talking about the placement or everything they got him cornered in there that's you know quite often you want to you want to watch that I would pull that away from the wall a little bit myself the room may not be very big we don't know what the other side of the room looks like but that that looks like but as they box them in that that corner keeps getting smaller and smaller and as we've seen before some people get up in that corner who's the police officer Holtz-Claw Holtz-Claw yeah he's the one that got backed up in the corner so far he almost went through the wall but so anyway but I think you guys are right and going back to that part I've seen I'm familiar with this type of line I've seen as you guys have a thousand times then he's used this same set up to do that and that's what he's doing because he's comfortable there that's where he comes like you said Greg what makes you what makes the organism successful that's what they'll keep doing he's coming out doing a I'm not going to say a great job but he's doing what he does at that point and he completely shuts down before that when he starts talking about those things like you were saying Greg and Mark as well he's completely shut down I mean he gets so small he's he's beyond turtling he's almost a snail up in there curled up in his shell he's getting so tiny at that point then we're seeing mercy hands those flat hands palms up like please you know please have mercy on me this I'm sure his brain is on fire right now his limbic system trying to decide whether they're going to drop the hammer on that car ride or not as they try to get him to talk about the car and in a few minutes we're going to see well I won't hit that but I think this is great because we could you can feel the tension building in there as they get him closer and closer and start boxing into that little corner over there he's not moving to the corner but you can feel that that he's getting boxed in when I see that I can't help but think he's being pushed into a corner at that point whatever the case may be but yeah that and this is on your cell phone the three-way call obviously it's your cell phone because you're not my friend's phone friend's phone yeah but yesterday so do you have your phone no that's what I'm saying no so who is the friend who swole you were using to talk to in her on a three-way call I don't want to say his name because I don't want to okay I guess so you saw her though right you met up with her okay so how did the conversation with your end with me walking off and her being pissed off that I didn't want to hang out with her I said look I'm not supposed to be around you I'm gone okay when she said how did you use to get out she said I didn't I didn't have a card so whose card did you use to get to Waukesha my friend my friend is the one that said he was gonna go hang out watch the pattern damn I said I'm gonna go with okay whose card did you use to get out to Waukesha I didn't use anybody's card where does your friend live my friend lives in Waukesha so you didn't walk to Waukesha whose card did you guys use my friend I just said what type of card is it I'm just trying to figure out how you got here yeah I know but you're saying like you trying to like spame me up or something like I'm just asking how you got here whose card did spame me up or something like I'm just asking how you got here whose card did you drive out here I didn't drive at all whose card did you come out here in my friend okay right what kind of card is it so here's the thing Darrell okay obviously you know she's coming at us I told her she's talking about some domestic related issues okay you know I'm I don't know if she's IBS I don't know if she's not I'm telling you hold on let me finish let me finish let me finish I don't want you to get yeah because you know hold on let me finish you know I don't entirely know all that okay I'm just right now trying to figure out how you get out here so I got to step out with my partner for a minute just relax don't I want you to get you all under risk okay but you know I'm not trying to be confrontational but I don't think when you meet her out in Waukesha you're not from Waukesha I think a reasonable question has been asked how did you get out here the way you drove someone else drove and so when you got out here what type of card are you wearing so just every hour or so my boss he knows we're out here I just got a call on so yeah we're talking I'll call you back later just got to step out throw in a line with him and we'll come back just chill out here enjoy your soda we'll be right back all right so good so we don't talk in or no no no no just chill out we'll be back and we'll be checking that so I just got to make that call that check in call all right in the middle of the conversation well do you want to tell me about the car I'll just go another couple minutes yeah but I'm I mean I got a call and I can come back but I just all about missing I'm well all right Greg what do you got yeah this is an interesting one because now we're gonna see interrogators at work long before there was a read method there was a huns-sharf method and the huns-sharf method that came out of World War II was about non-course of interrogation and you would call it tricks versus ploys when we tell you that we lie we deceive we do something it isn't that we lie to you about evidence we have is that we let on we may have something we don't and one of the approaches that is the single hardest approach for interrogators to learn to run is something called futility and it's why are you wasting my time and that's what you're seeing here you're seeing a very elegant approach to that with a termination if I were teaching termination to you I couldn't teach you a better version of it what we do is we say there's something that needs my attention I got to go validate or verify something you said whatever we may make up to take a break and then we reinforce the approach that worked whatever we were saying before hey you're kind of in a bind we're here to help you we're your friends we do that we reinforce rapport and he does a great job of reinforcing it saying look we're not trying to be confrontational he even gives him homework we'll be back in a few minutes I love that then he tells me as a boss as a reason he's leaving he's insinuating hey we're gonna leave and this is your chance and the guy's like hold on hold on hold on it works wonderfully you see him doing that in the beginning of it you see him doing that Frankenstein turtling again his arms are stiff and his head's down in his in his chest that's supposed to mean helplessness but usually when we are doing helpless things and we raise our shoulders our elbows bend and our hands come up we don't see that interrogator move one when you know the interrogator is about to start really closing the loop one of the best indicators and giveaways is that lean in and say I'm gonna shoot straight with you that's a great indicator there are millions of ways to do it but that's one of the most it's always that it's a matter how you word it and how you do it then I love the fact he does one of my favorite moves well that's that closes the book all of those notes he's been taking that's a figurative and an actual close the book on him and you watch the guy's reaction there's some relief but there's also a concern then he goes into that termination this is a beautiful piece of interrogation work because he's playing on this guy's psyche now and the guy wants more Scott what do you got yeah and those two guys are working together so well his partner is so subtle well we got a couple of minutes we you know I guess we got a couple more minutes just great they work together really well so it was it was as we're watching that we're all getting excited watching that because we know exactly what he's doing it was so smooth so really nice so I won't cover the things you covered in there because I'll just be reiterating but when he asked what kind of car he came out in then he lets him off and you go I would ask more questions here and then as he keeps going on and he starts getting around the car and explains to him he can't get the car out of him that's when he goes to well you know I've got to talk I've got to go talk to my balls because they have to call every little while and tell what we're doing and where we are oh it was it was great it was great you you you covered most everything on that Greg so I'll move it on to Mark what do you got yeah so what I love is the response that that that creates because there's a lot of pattern interrupts there and so it it pulls him off that the subjects usual erratic demeanor to three moments of complete freeze he's absolutely still at three moments he'll shift from one freeze to another freeze to another freeze but there are moments there where he may as well be you know a wax you know model there because nothing is happening as his brain goes what on earth is going on here I don't know what's going on this is a pattern I haven't seen he doesn't have a pattern to play in that so he's he's looking for help he's looking for a pattern that he will he will recognize of course them sitting back down again is a pattern that he recognizes and he can get back into that now comfort with with playing that role you know it's interesting Greg that you say you know there's a psychological effect because in the world that I come come from we have metaphorical gesture which is where you would close an actual book on somebody as the metaphor of I'm closing the book on you we have psychological gesture which is the book isn't there but I close it and and tell you and that's that's again to affect your psyche that the book is closing on you rather like I might you know pull the rug from underneath you at some kind of point as well or or shoot you dead with an idea okay lovely lovely to see all that great effect Chase what do you got on this one yet right at the beginning here we see the interviewer matching the body posture of the suspect which is great and let me just walk you through how this technique works really fast the suspect begins is very typical response to this tactic being used and here's what's happening from an interrogation perspective from the beginning number one the interrogator builds trust and rapport next the interrogator frames his presence as being there to help and assist and presents himself as the only thing capable of helping this situation then the moment the interrogator starts pulling out of the room the help and assistance is disappearing and it just creates this feeling of a loss of safety or a potential loss of safety so this builds it just this incredible amount of discomfort and uncertainty in this suspect and the response to this is negotiation I want to negotiate so that's where you see these these pleadings and this is where you see his back hit the chair toward the end of the video you see his back hit the chair and the status and power are reaffirmed and a window to more information is created in that moment that interrogator created a window to more information because the power and status was reaffirmed only one person can close the book in that room and he did that's all I got I had to give it to Chase I give it to Greg he had a globella involvement with that one that's because I always have it I don't have any control it's just there you won't let me give you one Chase there you go you had that one that's because you're just giving them out because I complained no it was the best gave me up or something like I'm just asking how you got here who's car did you drive out here I didn't drive at all car did you come out here at my flame okay right what kind of car is it so here's the thing Dorel okay obviously you know she's coming at us I told you she's talking about some domestic related issues okay you know I I don't know if she's IBS I don't know if she's not I'm telling you hold on let me finish let me finish let me finish I don't want you to get yeah because it was hold on let me finish you know I don't entirely know all that okay I'm just right now trying to figure out how you get out here so I gotta step out with my partner for a minute just relax don't I want you to get you all on their wrists okay but you know I'm not trying to be confrontational but I don't think when you meet her out in Waukesha and you're not from Waukesha I think a reasonable question has been asked how did you get out here whether you drove someone else drove and so when you got out here what type of car you were in so just every hour or so my boss he knows we're out here I just got a call on so yeah we're talking I'll call you back later just got to step out throw in a line okay and we'll come back just chill out here enjoy your soda we'll be right back all right sounds good so we doing talking or no no no just chill out we'll be back and I want you to check that so I just got to make that call that check in call all right in the middle of the car on the station well do you want to tell me about the car I'll just go another couple minutes yeah but I'm I mean I gotta call them I can come back but I just all out listen I'm well I'll tell you about the car I'll just go another couple minutes yeah but I'm I mean I gotta call them I can come back but I just all out listen I'm well I'm willing to listen carbonary you get straight up with me you get straight up with me right all I'm saying is I just want to know what I'm looking at and if I can just notify my girls that's it I don't have a problem with talking to you guys at all I just want to know what am I looking at that's me I told you at the start she called about some domestic abuse related stuff now I didn't talk to her myself I told you that at the start you said she was crazy we talked about no man don't talk to the one me no I didn't I didn't oh I'll apologize you talk slow down throw up just that we listened to the you're slow down do or else did she look beat up did she look like dude do or else come on now man slow down dude all right we can't explain it to you if you keep talking over us you know what I'm saying all right I didn't talk to her I didn't see her okay now makes this complaint which gets you back yeah and it's like what are you doing to me and I promise you I promise you my right hand to die almighty on the throne with Jesus next to his side the woman is going to sit up there and say I was drunk I was mad blah blah blah blah but it's like now I gotta go do everything just for you to do that why did you do this to me she thinks she's gonna come back to us Chase what do you got yeah let's just walk through exactly what happened in this video and you'll see it here when you go back and we do the replay there's severity softening which means a person's using different words or avoiding words of a crime that occurred there's an inability to identify any perpetrator or say somebody's a bad guy there's no denial there's negotiating with the interviewer there's an inability to mention the crime or violence he uses I think the words mad and drunk the promise was that she would say that not that it didn't happen I promise my hand to God that she's going to say those things that's a promise that is meaningless and has nothing to do with the substance of of what they asked him about to begin with Scott we go I agree with you I think he's doing all that because there's no what to say he's in a panic mode I think his brain is on fire at this point I think his limbic system is freaking out and there I bet you can hear that thing humming in there if you put your ear up on the side of his head because he doesn't know what to do he cannot wait he can't hardly stand it he wants to know if they know about that what he did with that car and not running over those people he can't hardly stand it and we're seeing that panic kick in and you're right when they're getting ready to leave is the safety net's gone what he's used to seeing what he's used to having what he's used to controlling or thinks he's controlling he's trying to control at that point they're getting up and leaving and again I think they did a beautiful job of that the way they executed that and the partner of the guy of the interviewer asking the questions and he did such a fine job he would just throw little things in there here and there really good I think he did a really good job and I'm sure he's the one that's mostly observing at that point when they come back in again he reiterates what he wants to know he lets him know what all's going on what are you in other words what do you think's happening what are we talking about here because he's waiting for that hammer to drop about killing those people all right Mark what do you got yeah so we know it's effective because we have a massive deviation from baseline once again and we don't need to see the eyes we don't need to see the face we don't even need to see any little motor gestures in the hand what we see is the whole of him get taken over by gravity around we can't explain it to you at that point when the interrogator say we're not going to give you the information on this he's completely defeated on that one but then opposite this hand to God idea goes right above his head at that point so he goes from earth up into heaven very very quickly that's a big move that's a big gesture we haven't seen him do anything like that before just that big move there suggests that this is a very different situation for him right now and a different situation than he is usually in he's used to be in these kind of police interviews I think but never under this level of crime Greg what do you got on this one yeah I'm not going to cover the same things you've covered but we go back to his original question did anybody die this guy may or may not know that people died he knows he's in a bind he doesn't know what they know he can't prove the vehicle but it's starting to close in on him and you can feel it he's got guilty knowledge and evasion about what he knows what am I being charged with what am I being charged with well you know when a person's asking that they have guilty knowledge and they're they're feeding you the opportunity to go after him he'd be happy to trade guilt for the restraining order for yelling or any other thing at this point and so you start to see his body locking up and him closing down and I agree with all of you he's in he's in cat brain he's not thinking this is where being an interrogator has a feeling to it I always say to people when a person says what makes a good interrogator I'll say there's that special sauce that is the ability to feel when something is not there and this is the only voodoo witchcraft you'll ever hear me say you've got to know when that moment is there you got to feel it and when you feel it you got to try to prove yourself wrong so I can feel this guy wants to know something now I'm going to trade him something but you have to work really hard not to get the wrong piece of information and you don't lie and give him information that isn't true because you can go from we know all that we don't know anything with one fact the other way you got to be really careful about in a criminal investigation where you're after confession is that you feed him a piece of guilty knowledge that he doesn't know because that's how a false confession can be believed one of the biggest tests for an interrogator is to try to verify false information in the prisoner if the prisoner validates something that is not true then you know they probably are not the right one you see it in false confessions all the time a guy there's a great one I just found last week that we'll do here shortly it's got the one I call and say this is the best bad interrogation I've ever seen they tell this guy iteratively exactly what happened to somebody and he confesses to it he was nowhere near the situation so you got to be careful you hedge in the beginning you never lie if you have a chance to avoid it and then you got to be careful with that my other favorite thing he's got a Will Ferrell moment about holy ground here you know baby Jesus in a you know it just goes on and on and on how about as God as my witness might be enough not as God as my witness sitting in a throne with Jesus by his right hand and Mary on the phone what are we doing there you know you just keep adding and adding and adding and anytime we hear high or holy ground we always go why did that come up now at the hot button instead of earlier in a normal conversation you about the car yeah but I'm I mean I got a call and I can come back but I just all about listening I'm willing to listen carpet you get straight up with me you get straight up with me right all I'm saying is I just want to know what I'm looking at and if I can just notify my girls that's it I don't have a problem with talking to you guys that all I just want to know what am I looking at that's the start she called about some domestic abuse related stuff now I didn't talk to her myself I told you that at the start you said she was crazy we talked about no man don't talk to the woman no I didn't I didn't oh other office all right you talk throw up just that we listened to the slow down she would beat up did she like do throw up come on now man slow down dude all right we can't explain it to you if you keep talking over us you know what I'm saying all right I didn't talk to her I didn't see her okay now that and then she makes this complaint when she gets you back yeah and it's like why do you do this to me and I'll promise you I promise you that my right hand to God Almighty on the throne with Jesus next to his side the woman is going to sit up there and say I was drunk I was mad blah blah blah blah blah but it's like now I gotta go do everything just for you to do that why did you do this to me she thinks she's gonna come back to us no not you not not not your office man but it's just it I feel that way because we're trying to trying to guess ah I know you heard that oh my god ah oh that sure I know you heard that I heard it I didn't check we're gonna go check with them maybe they'll listen to us a little bit better do you want us to check yeah oh my god yeah give us a minute see what we got dude they gotta it gotta be something wrong man how in the hell does it sometimes sprains will pop too yeah but why does it hurt them like this and they see this metal the sprains can actually be more painful in a break whatever they got whatever they did it hurt so bad you want to keep the food why don't you keep the food in the soda and we'll be asking a few more ah we got that talent off the bureau with them all right I think I'll go first on this one you know when they left the room they went right next door and we're watching this on the monitor they had to be and the thing that I'm flabbergasted the flabbergasted I can't believe they didn't come in laughing I can't believe they can hats off I respect these guys for not laughing in this guy's face when they came in like that because they saw all that going on I think that's awesome and obviously his arm didn't really hurt when you when you get hurt like that you'll you'll you won't talk a lot first because you're worried about what's going on you'll be feeling around out and going oh man something's wrong about you won't be that whole we all know it's fake because we saw it fake but I mean I don't know where to go with that Chase what do you got yeah I think what we're really seeing here is a very strong desire to connect and build rapport with the interviewers he's wanting them to identify with a similar experience like I know you've had something pop before and in an interrogation this is when you build uncertainty more with an extended absence and in my experience it's even more effective if you come back into the room and then realize that you forgot something and then immediately pop back out for a few more minutes so you give it an idea of salvation and then you leave again within five seconds of coming into the room and of course this is just next level faking and I'm sure that's just glaringly obvious to everybody which is probably why Greg and Scott wanted to put this clip in there Mark what do you got yeah so I you know I just treat this as a deviation from baseline because we've not heard anything so far or any maneuver around pain in the shoulder at all so look whether it was real or not real and clearly it's not real I mean clearly that's the case but even if it were real we could still treat it as a deviation from baseline because it's like why didn't you mention it before why now especially as there's now resource on the table we now got a burger there some other items have shown up so there's some change some resources been put on the table deviation from deviation from baseline there from the interrogators because they haven't been there all day just going have another burger have another burger have another burger they've been doing you know tell us something tell us something tell us something we won't tell you something now here's a burger now I've got a pain in my shoulder now people leave and I think there's threat detection going on there having a look at the papers is there threat there I think the checking of the phone and I think he's trying to do nine for an outside line or something like that and whether it's plugged in or not is a whole other story but I think that's because he's looking for escape routes that's one you know there's no windows to look for is my expectation he knows where the door is what's his other exit strategy well disappear through the phone line could I get something via the phone line could I exit via the phone line it's a bizarre way to think but obviously you know he's in a complete reptile brain at this point or cat brain as Greg would say he's not thinking straight and for the unconscious mind a phone would be a good way out I mean you know could easily go sorry guys I can't talk I've got a phone call at the moment you know a Majesty is calling me right now so who knows who knows what he's thinking I would say he's now getting frustrated and defeated by the behaviors that I'm seeing from him Greg what are you saying yeah so a couple of things I think all the all the shoulder is is chaff and if his shoulder popped and he can go now he gets to not talk about what matters and that's all it is it's a way to get away and he's going to lean into it just because the police grabbed him and he's saying what your other guys did to it and all those kind of things let me tell you I live it in a world where most of the people you deal with are not necessarily whole when you get your hands on them because when you're in a war people get hurt that's the way life works Chase same thing with you and sometimes it would be injured you never never never play down an injury ever ever ever if it's a minor bruise I would say oh my god that's awful I've never seen anything quite so bad because now I can help you I can bring you resource Mark to your point of the person controlling the resource is a parental figure so always the person who can make your life better also you don't ever want to make people think that life is easier than it is so we take advantage of it look I mean when I'm talking about injured I'm not here about severely injured because those people were not allowed to talk to they're taken over into medical facilities and that and there's certain restrictions on who's allowed to talk to people in medical facilities and which role you play so intelligence interrogation is a different game than this but when you're in a war people get injured so we always make sure they're cleared up that's just him chaffing but here's the funniest part to me they go out of the room they leave him there two things Mark if the phone is connected it's probably to the control room in my world so that the person there would patch and he calls through it wouldn't be that person to have a chance to call but given a choice I'll hand you your cell phone talk to your friends please I want to hear what you're talking about I love to hear what's inside your little noggin when you're talking to your friends I uh the other part I love is when the people come back he automatically covers like oh there's no nothing happened like there's not a camera right there that you can clearly see unless you just don't know and this is why good good confession interrogation works is because you close the space so that the only people in the room are you and the guy they can't tell that there are many other people watching there might be a dozen people watching this probably are dozens of people watching this considering what happened and when what you the other piece you would do is I might leave something in my notes this guy is lying you know whatever I'm doing I would not leave any information that he shouldn't know in my notes but I would leave my notes there I might even leave something that's incriminating to see if he would tear it up it's all intentional anything an interrogator does to quote Jeremiah Dent and the guys from when hell was in session he's a trick a ruse or a ploy not not you not not not your opportunity but it's just I feel that way because you're trying to trying to guess ah I know you heard that oh my god ah all right sure I know you heard that I heard it I didn't check we're gonna go check with them maybe they'll listen to us a little bit better a lot of this check yet oh my god yeah give us a minute ah let's do what we got dude they gotta it gotta be something wrong man how in the hell does it sometimes sprains will pop too yeah but why does it hurt them like this and they say there's nothing because sprains can actually be more painful in a break whatever they got whatever they did it hurt so bad you want to keep the food why don't you keep the food in the soda and we'll be asking a few more ah I think we got that title off the bureau with I'm going home that's it let me ask you this Dorrell so you weren't out you weren't out in Waukesha Saturday just Sunday yes right okay nothing physical yesterday like I told you you're a part in the investigation there's a lot of parts right to any investigation there's there's people we talk about well this domestic abuse thing I'm telling you about all right okay so wait hold on let me oh okay I'm sorry I think that question but you talked about being a you know a religious man I have to do better yeah I have to do better we all could I'm not we all could that's why yesterday was a mistake I should have just freaking watched the game and just yeah and went home right because that's the thing what did what do they teach us in Christianity throughout that they teach us that we're broken right we're sinners even when we're born we're born sinners we're broken that's why I'm thinking we're so thankful for God's grace and forgiveness right when we ask for it even though we don't deserve it but when we ask for it he gives it all right you're a father you got three children 18 to 18 14 and 7 yes sir all right you got a mom that raised you well but God you you believe it absolutely all right and all of them are here's the thing they'll all want is to tell that you're telling the absolute whole truth and nothing but the truth right absolutely so I'll help you God right absolutely I'm familiar we've all heard that right and I just have concerns by fact check that Dorrell's not telling me the truth you don't have a car so Marcus had to bring you out you don't own a car your mom doesn't own a car right so Marcus had to bring you out so why did we find you with a car key in your pocket it wasn't in my pocket I don't even know where they said that was laying on the ground that's yours yeah it shouldn't have been by my ID yeah it's yours it's your car key okay because it goes to a board escape and your mom's name recovered at Waukesha all right Greg what do you got yeah so here's an interesting thing for you we talk about regulators and we talk about people regulating conversation with their hands and your turn my turn wait hold on here's an interesting point for you rarely does a person regulate in a conversation unless they're interested in what's going on the only exception to that is they'll regulate to get out of a boring conversation they'll try to rush it but when a person is doing this much interface with you when you're talking to them they care about what you're saying and you can see it here you can see is his interest is peaked and he leans in when he hears more about the investigation this cop does a really good severity softening move very quickly he makes it not about the murder not about the deaths he makes it about the domestic violence issue so he's going back into that guy's wheelhouse so he can talk then you see him do all that regulation so wait my fault and then he puts that barrier back up then he moves into what we in in the intelligence interrogation world would call love of as an approach love of God in this case you know you've brought up God before the guy knows I mean that when he brings up Psalm 51 17 he's talking about broken and contrite and that stuff so he knows he grew up in that world the this detective is showing some stress when he's trying to run this approach look at his right leg what we call an adapter that jiggling of the leg is him trying to release nervous energy and now this guy goes back to his closed posture but this guy knows an approach when he sees when he's seen it before when he goes in and he starts talking about no car that's an amazing turn of events when he says you had a key on you that's a hard accusation to which he responds I didn't have a key on me but that wilt at the end tells you it's his key he says I didn't have it on me he didn't say it's not my key love that then he goes in for the futility and does the close the loop this concentric circles of questioning and tightening has really gotten to the point where this guy's on the grid right on the griddle right now mark what do you got yeah he's got a new not necessarily baseline but consistent behavior now throughout this little clip which is that you know the body is right over now the head is quite hung he's protecting vulnerable areas here the belly area the elbows and the fingers as well you probably couldn't get a lot more protected than that other than having rolled onto the floor and bulge yourself up in the corner would probably be you know the next best way of dealing with this situation and with you Greg seeing that leg kind of jiggle along for me suggests that the interrogator here is quite anxious to push forward on this and what a contrast to how his subject is at this point so lovely to see and again we're not having to look at the eyes we're not having to look at the mouth at all we're not having to look at any kind of fine motor skill at all or any grand gestures in any way just the way people are positioned and the consistent behavior that they're doing against other consistent behaviors that we've seen tell us enough in this within the context Scott what do you got on this one all right here again we're seeing when the word investigation comes up he stops them and that's when we're seeing that big regulator he wants to see what's going on he cannot stand it he wants to know what's going on so bad or what they know at this point we've covered so much of this guy so far for this point there's not a whole lot extra to go on in there that I would add to it especially since you guys have covered so much so far but the big regulator that's the first time we've seen that in there so at that point he closes down kind of backs off after that I don't think there's much more I can add from my perspective for that Chase what about you yeah for just for technical specs here this part of the interview is called a confrontation and more specifically in some trainings this is called a direct positive confrontation so we're setting up we're seeing the interviewer set up that what's called a theme from the beginning so this is common and it's a well executed technique of beginning the theme and going through what's called an agreement set which is essentially where we're offering a lot of undeniable things listed out by the interviewer that the suspect will agree with so that a bond of agreement is built this is a big moment for the interrogator you can see it with his leg bouncing all over the place when the interrogator makes an accusation he couches it in several very specific ways there's a hypothetical situation I'm concerned about this then he uses the suspect's name in third person which is more indirect approach the only mistake here and it was not a big one at all was the interrogator uses the word we as who found the car keys in his pocket we always want to separate ourselves from the authorities as much as possible as interiors we want to separate ourselves from the people doing investigations people who captured you etc etc this helps to build the savior mentality that we're trying to achieve inside the suspect's mind so it's always someone doing the investigation somebody going out on the street doing the work on this it's they it's them and I want to use team pronouns inside with me and this other person I want to say us our we what's our plan for this this is our chance to get ahead of this etc that's all I got yeah chase that's why when I always open up 90% of the time it's like hey man I'm not a cop I can't arrest you I can't do anything they've asked me to come in here and talk to you and find out why you did this you know that way I could work into you know apologizing to which I've told that story before let me see this drill so you weren't out you weren't out and walked just Saturday just Sunday yes right okay nothing physical yesterday like I told you you're a part in the investigation there's a lot of parts right to any investigation there's but there's the people we talk to well this domestic abuse thing I'm telling you about all right okay so wait hold on let me oh okay I'm sorry I got that question you talked about being a you know a religious man right I could do better yeah I could definitely do better we all could I'm not we all could that's why that's why yesterday was a mistake I should have just freaking watched the game and just fucking went home right because that's the thing what do what do they teach us in Christianity throughout that they teach us that we're broken right we're sinners even when we're born we're born sinners we're broken that's why son 51 so thankful for God's grace and forgiveness right when we ask for it even though we don't deserve it but when we ask for it he gives it all right you're a father you got three children 18 is it 18 14 and 7 yes sir all right you got a mama that raised you well and a god you you believe in absolutely all right and all of them are here's the thing the law want is to tell that you're telling the absolute full truth and nothing about the truth right absolutely so help you got right absolutely we've all heard that right and I just have concerns by fact check that Durell's not telling me the truth you don't have a car so Marcus had to bring you out you don't own a car your mom doesn't own a car right so Marcus had to bring you out so why did we find you with a car key in your pocket it wasn't in my pocket I don't even know where they said that was laying on the ground that's yours yeah it should have been by my ID yeah it's yours it's your car key okay because it goes to a board escape and your mom's name recovered in Waukesha okay listen Durell I'm trying to be as open and honest with you as I can be you know I'm Christian too and believe me I'm not perfect and neither are you I'm not calling you a terrible man I'm not saying you were out yesterday hunting and just let me finish you but you did not walk to that house you did not walk to that house you did not come here in a tankea you didn't tell you did not come out here in a tankea okay you've got a key in your pocket to the car your mom's name okay and that key works for that car for the love of god Marcus for yourself for your family you know what happened yesterday for the people tell me what happened well what with the car with them on being with your mom's car you're driving goofy people call the end you drove out of there in your mom's car the red car you're driving a little silly probably because you're pissed you met up with Erica in the car at the park now initially I believe you told us the gas station do I have that right and then you changed it to the park so that's an it's not it's not I see it the house was by the gas station you when you say it you say it what was by who said you went right it was by a gas station that's what you met her no no no no I said I met her at the park okay at a creek you met her you say it you met her at the park in your mom's car a red Ford escape she got in you're taught and what you're telling me seems pretty consistent that there was nothing physical what you matter in the car I didn't put my hands on her in that what you matter in the car what's going on man all right mark what do you got yeah so he's locked into position that he was in right from the start at the at the top of that but now there's again going to be a a slight and subtle change which is he gets his hand out and he starts doing table presses with the tips of the fingers so there's more detail in there because the subject matter has changed now you know what are you what are you really talking about what are you really interviewing me about because the subject matter has shifted he's got a little more energy to try and win some form of argument around the detail and so you see that with the detailed fingers there he's giving it his best go but you're not seeing that big demonstrative you know these big shifts that he'd normally do he hasn't got the energy for it anymore I think quite frankly he's he's tired I believe by now he's mentally spent I think now so he hasn't got the capacity to do the big arguments that he'd normally win he's down to small little details and he soon gives up on that and retracts back again so the subject has changed he tries to change his behavior around that he hasn't got his usual routines he's gone back to boiling up slightly he's definitely on the back foot right now Greg what do you think let's talk for a minute about the psychology of capture what happens when you're in captivity and at least two of us have been there when you're in captivity is everything becomes about you and everything becomes black and white and everything becomes personal and what we mean by that is you stop noticing everything around you and clearly he has stopped noticing everything around him this detective swings too soon he swings too soon this right here looks like pre-confession we start to notice he's balling up he's getting tight what we look for in pre-confession is a person gets all balled up and all tight and then they blossom open and their head drifts down to the right and they start to talk slowly when that happens there's a process and a method we go through to get that now usually that works best when it's one on one so having a second guy here you might find a reason for him to get out of the room before now he hasn't this is also Chase brought it up very early in this interrogation the table is not your friend that table being between you means that now he's got a barrier we're in a real confession when the guy is right on the edge and you're ready to confess non-confrontational comforting I'll lean out and put my hand on his leg and say it's okay man everybody has made mistakes and he tries you hear him using the right language using the right stuff but he's a little bit too assertive you need to be less assertive and more compassionate more this is where empathy comes in if you have no empathy you can't be an interrogator you just can't because you'll miss that point you watch this progressively see his arms getting tighter and tighter that's a great indicator we're headed down that path the threat's clear this is working take the table out of the way his voice tone has changed you hear that everything's slower and darker the detective is then immediately senses it because he's well trained and he goes after it he lowers his volume if he would have that other guy out he might not have made this swing too quickly and he should have elicited instead of asking I would have said I think you can see where this is headed that's all I got Scott what do you got well I agree with you completely I hear he went in just a little bit too soon it's all led up to this and he's right there man but he just and when they left it would have been the perfect time to scooch over more toward the side of that table to get closer to him if he's going to do that if he'd planned ahead these things are malleable they're organic you know it's tough to you can always look back and make decisions about what you should have done and all that but I agree I think he came in a little bit too quick he shut down everything was good pretty soon I was waiting for that rocking to start to happen didn't see that but so close so close and I agree I think if he had been close enough to come in there put his hand on him and in just like you did man I think that would have I think that would it may have changed changed the game at that point having seen him in court afterwards now no it may not have but maybe he sensed that you know maybe he said well here is the shot you got to go for it like you were talking about earlier the feeling you get maybe he thought this is it man I got to go but watch the watch his partner he's so excited he's swinging back and forth because he knows what's going on he sees it coming too they both know that's going to happen then but he's so excited he can't really stand it so you see him swaying back and forth that you can see his knees going back and forth so I think I think you're right Greg I think he just it's swung too soon man swung too soon and that's not beating him up because we're not in the room it's really easy to see I guess yeah that's what I'm saying because we don't know we weren't there we can always look back say oh you should have done this but I'm not doing this at all I'm just saying you know as things go that flow looked like it was a little bit too early but like I said he may have seen that shot said this is it man I got to go now because maybe he's he's been there a lot longer with the guy we're not we're just watching it because man he does such a great job on this they both do I think they did a fantastic job Mark what do you got or Chase what do you got Chase yeah I totally agree with y'all I've done that I've gone way way too early before because just because I was excited I had a tiny bit of compliance like for five minutes and I'm like oh they're ready so I would jump in and interviewer does a great job uses even the same word that the suspect uses to start serious sentences saying listen that is great I love that he did that this is great work by the interviewer and here are the secret interrogation techniques I promised these are the kind of the priorities of the interrogator I think in order socialize the problem minimize the problem project reassure and rationalize not necessarily in that order but I think videotape would have been very useful even a blank CD that's on the table labeled traffic cam and security footage on the CD would have this I think just have it on the table it would plant a mind virus so deep that there would be no escape from that his eyes would be locking onto that onto that dbd cd over and over and these questions from the suspect are priceless innocent people don't do this so this is a last-minute attempt to just discover information before revealing anything and we see this in just about every single episode of colombo every episode I want to get as much data as I can before I say anything so the topic that gets concealed is typically the topic that you need to reveal and I'll leave it with that yeah okay I'll give you that chase you got that thank you I'm trying to be as open and honest with you as I can be you know I'm Christian too and believe me I'm not perfect and neither are you and I'm not calling you a terrible man I'm not saying you were out yesterday hunting and just let me finish but you did not walk to that house you did not walk to that house you did not come here in a tan key you did not come here in a tan key you did not come here in a tan key you didn't kind of who you did not come out here in a tan key okay you've got a key in your pocket to a car your mom's name okay and that key works for that car for the love of god Marcus for yourself for your family you know what happened yesterday for the people tell me what happened well what with the car what am I being with your mom's car you're driving goofy people call the end you drove out of there in your mom's car the red car you're driving a little silly probably because you're pissed you met up with Erica in the car at the park oh initially I believe you told us the gas station do I have that right and then you changed it to the park so that's an it's not I see it the house was by the gas station you when you said you said what was by you said you went it was by a gas station that's what you met her no no no no I said I met her at the park okay at a creek you met her you say that you met her at the park in your mom's car a red Ford escape she got in you taught and what you're telling me seems pretty consistent that there was nothing physical but you met her in the car I didn't put my hands on her and that the mom but you met her in the car what's going on man they're in the car can what's going on man asking you a question just being you were out there driving he was crazy some people said you were driving kind of crazy we got reports of it you got the key you got the car did you take the car did your mom give you the car I know you know what car I'm talking about I just want to know so some people not for the whole those people no no no no no reported that car driving a bit around I know what you're saying all I'm saying is this all I'm saying is this we all been straight up with each other you knew it was more to what you was asking me yesterday that would explain that would explain the FBI and all that right they're not here today so if it's that big a deal you don't see them here today car we been we been you guys met in the car in the park we been cool man the whole time if I did something if I did something yeah that's why they were here but do you see them here today they're not here today yeah but but y'all lie to me man you make it seem like they just come for no reason well here's the thing Dorrell and I'm like what if I if it's today for a minute I apologize I can give you a clean slate here I apologize because you have lied to us as well because you came out here in the red Ford skate and that is what you came out here and you had the key all right Greg what do you got yeah this is one of my favorites so I'll start with the end this is interrogator 101 a lot of intelligence interrogators well most of us don't have badges or credentials we can't arrest so we'll always say look I don't care what you did doesn't affect me but I can't arrest you or I'm not going to rest you and and and then we get what we need we just hand them off to the agent who does have badges and credentials and takes them away and they usually say you lied to me and you look at them and go you lied first that's usually the answer that's how it works and that's what he's in effect saying this guy's interrogating the interrogator he's trying to get information he's running ploys he's doing everything an interrogator does this guy's seen this before look I've seen this in real life where a guy's trying to find out what I know part of the reason I used to say interrogators don't need to top secret clearances because we're talking to the enemy at all times so what we need to do is to know what we need to collect not why so that's an important part of why top secret with access isn't always a part of being an interrogator we did a show called torture the Guantanamo guidebook and there was a kid in there who kept trying to interrogate us at the same time we're doing it to him so we see it all the time it's real it doesn't mean the guy has to be a bad guy in general he can be trying to figure out what you're after and why because it can be confusing but guys like this he's pretty smart he's willing to throw away guilt at something small in exchange for something big and those regulators show you what he's trying to do is to get control of that conversation and start driving there's no value to him saying you lied to me except for Chase we're back to your initial posit that he always wins his arguments and here's the animal doing what the animal does Chase what do you got yeah I agree totally agree and when you're in I was never a teacher at Sear School but when you're in in Sear School they give you a code word and you're thinking it's fake it's not real I have an inherent knowledge that I'm going to be safe and within about 13 hours that disappears it is completely gone I had a code word my code word was Teddy Graham I'm serious and I had to give and I gave it up I gave it up and you'd be very surprised how effective this is no matter how good you are at winning arguments right at this moment did you take the car or did your mom give you the car this is called an alternative question and he's using it here for something other than the crime which I think is very smart and right at the moment he realizes everything's going to come out you can see a perfect repeat of the abdominal covering behavior there protecting the rib cage all of this stuff this is where you stop their advances this is the point where you stop any kind of defensive behavior and you might depending on your interrogation instructor that this might be called a monologue and when you launch into this you want to do all of those things that an interrogator supposed to do in a couple of paragraphs you might say something like you know I know that's really important to you and I promise we're going to get to that but right now I'm running out of time where I can help you when I walk out of that door there's nothing more I can do to help you this is our chance to let people know why all this happened this is our chance to shape how your mom and your babies are going to see this just to let people know that you made a mistake you don't have to let people call you a monster and I know you're not a monster but there won't be a chance after I leave this room and that would be a monologue kind of minimizing I'm projecting it reassuring that let's get your image correct here Scott all right yeah coming into that it looks like it's going to fall apart on him because Durrell has come up against his hey wait we've been buddies all this stuff and he totally controls the integrator totally controls all that confusion of things because he's seen it time and time and time and time again and knows how to handle it I think he did a great job at that point because it just it just looks like it's all falling apart because the guy's button up against him all of a sudden they're past the discussion parts almost like they're arguing which is Durrell's wheelhouse and he's really good at that but he's not as good at it as the interrogator was at defending that and pulling just everything he threw out he just took it apart got the little screwdriver out and everything just fell apart for him not the interrogator so Mark what do you got yeah you're right it has got argumentative I think argument is probably not the place it's meant to be going at the moment because argument for me is taking a bit of a step back just as you were suggesting there Chase for him to ball up and then not allow that and opening him up that he feels there's somebody trusted that he can confess to my understanding would be is that's the way it needs to go I think it's always going to be a little bit argumentative because you're right Scott it's the subject's modus operandi is being a good arguer and you see that he's doing the digital table presses he's got he's using his sharpest brain right now to try and argue this one out they are continually in antagonism geometrically they are antagonistic antagonistic towards each other so of course they're going to argue it's going to be the nature of the of the setup just as people have been saying it would have been better if they'd have got themselves into compliment and geometrically that means you're on a 90 degree angle to somebody so look the geometry explains exactly what the psychology is going to be antagonistic you will argue compliment you'll get on better with each other if you're parallel to them then you'll be thinking the same way so it's no surprise that that it goes into argument here and the subject is in his element and then it reverts back again to this process here so based on that I don't know where this goes my understanding is is there is no confession at the end of this and so that possibly doesn't surprise me because it's maybe now going to play out and I don't know whether we've got more of this video but it's maybe now going to play out in balling up argument balling up argument because that antagonism is going to be the pattern that's played out maybe you'd come back the next day try something else but I guess you can only hold somebody for so long I don't know how this ended up how they arrested him in the end but but you know lovely little sequence there did you take the card did your mom give you the card I know you know what car I'm talking about I just want to know so some people are not affordable all those I'll take them on the reporter there your car driving a bit erratic I know what you're saying all I'm saying is this all I'm saying is this we all have been straight up with each other you knew it was more to what you was asking me yesterday didn't know that would explain that would explain the FBI and all that right they're not here today so if it's that big a deal you don't see them here today come on car we've been you guys met in the car in the park we've been cool man the whole time if I did something if I did something yeah that's why they were here but do you see them here today they're not here today yeah but but y'all lied to me man you made it seem like they just come for no reason well here's the thing to Ralph and I'm like what if I if it's today for a minute I'll apologize I can give you a clean sling I'll apologize because you have lied to us as well because you came out here in the red Ford Skate okay that is what you came out here in you had the key all right well let's throw around the room one time and talk about what we think we've seen up to this point see if we can keep it to 30 seconds or less Mark why don't you go first yeah so uh as I said right at the start just because they're wearing a mask doesn't have to matter you don't necessarily have to see what's happening in the face hey it's an advantage if you can but sometimes it's a disadvantage to have so much information as I've told people who are on our kind of mastermind course that we do our behavior panel board is sometimes you want to purposely close down the information that you have and go really deep in a certain area to get a economical result and hopefully that's been shown by just looking at the bigger body language in this Chase what do you got yeah the the whole video of the the relief we saw in the beginning because I think well a lot of the behaviors we saw in the beginning was relief that he wasn't being investigated for the the murders and I think we saw that slowly fade away as he gradually realized that he was in that room and it was beautiful to watch and to the detective who did this interview we'd love to have you on the show I think I speak for everybody that'd be fun to talk to you you did a great job and it's your technique was uncommonly good Greg yeah the the detective's name is Jay Carpenter and yeah we we all agree yeah you're welcome anytime just reach out a couple of things this is a great example of a real interrogation look when you're interrogating somebody who is innocent it's very different this so like I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know what what what there's none of that this guy is fishing back and I call it a glass wall for a reason because both sets of people came in with an agenda look if I didn't do something I'm gonna have an agenda too I went off I went out but if I did something and we have a very different agenda and you can see it because it will feel like there's a glass wall between us and that we're not talking to each other we're talking at each other and it's really hard to reach through there and pull that guy through the glass he gets really close he does a very effective iterative guilt approach on the guy getting him first of all not talking about the thing he's going to charge him with talking about something else to get him to put him at the scene at the scene then to take him the next step then to pull him through and he almost gets him there but I think this guy is a hard nut to crack probably to take it longer maybe a different process if you haven't seen the trial this is a whole new circus maybe we'll do the trial next Scott what do you got yeah I agree with you and I don't think he was I don't think it was possible to crack him at that point he'd already made up his mind no matter what happened obviously from what we'd seen in court he wasn't going to say he did it he was going to fight he was going to fight to the end and he did it did work out so well for him but yeah but I agree with you I think the interrogator did a fantastic job and I comment his partner too because our compliment his partner as well because he did such a fantastic job of sitting there just lobbing little things in here and there just at the right time it's almost like you're baking something or cooking something you got to put stuff in just the right time and he would I thought he did a fantastic job and I think again it's a great study in illustrators and I've always used the OJ Simpson ones where he talks of any answers they don't land when they're supposed to these are so big and so huge where illustrators are landing where they're not supposed to and happen when they're when there's nobody when he's not saying anything but expecting him to be accepted as words or statements I think that's fantastic I'll be using that as well I'm pulling those things probably this week sometime to start using all right fellas I think this was a good one and I'll see you next time