 I don't speak Spanish, but there was a lot of body language, and I can understand body language. Today, we're going to talk about Sherry Papini. This is a fascinating study and interrogation and interview with her. Greg, why don't you tell us about the videos we're going to watch? Well, first of all, I'm going to say I agree with you. I almost put on a suit and tie just for this one. It's such a good set of videos. We got these videos from a guy called Drip Drop over at Crime Circus. He's been really good to us. He gave us some videos without his watermark. But this watermark is on these, and he does good sound and good video. So we're going to use him some more in the future. His links are in the notes. This is about Sherry Papini, who disappeared while she was out on a run on the 2nd of November, 2016 and mysteriously reappeared in restraints on the side of the road on the 24th of November, 2016, 150 miles south of her house. She claimed to have been abducted by two Hispanic women. The police initially thought that was true and got 20 search warrants. And then later she was charged with faking that. And she ended up getting a 18 month prison sentence and $300,000 fine for faking. So here you go. This is what we're going to cover. First videos, first two are immediately after she came home. And the last video is her just before she's arrested four years later. It was a blonde woman, a smaller blonde woman. Was she CHP or was she? No, she was yellow in my church office. OK. But there was I don't know what he was. I want to say he was CHP because when he was the lady with the short black hair, she was the ID tag. She was great. And she was seemed to be very protective and because she was kind of talking to me a little bit. And I was I was very I was very angry and I was very frustrated because when they first pulled up, I asked them multiple times to cut off the zip tie because my hand was like turning blue. Like my hand was cut off and they wouldn't do it. And that was very frustrating to me that we would cut it off. And I was telling her that and I said, you know, they wouldn't let me talk to my husband, I want my husband and they weren't even untie me. And he said, we did untie you. And I was like, get the fuck out. No, you didn't because he yelled back at me like we didn't. I'm like, no, you didn't. And then you get there because they were doing it. Yeah, no. So I just was very very angry and that and that guy really. I didn't care if it's easy to do that. Yeah. Well, let's can I use the ladies room? Yes, absolutely. Well, I mean, it's just. And Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so this is going to be a really good one because she's already told us she knows body language, remember? So let's see how much she knows and whether she's got Dunning Kruger or she really knows body language. We'll figure that out. She starts off this one. I'm going to tell you that in the true crime workshop, what she's doing, we call the romance or and this is baseline for her. But she's locking eyes because she wants to read these people as they're talking. This is before she goes the next step. Also, before she comes here, a data point, she asked, is it OK if I pull my feet up? So she's trying to lock herself down. And I think she learned some absolutist body language that we're going to see her put into action here and we're going to see how it plays out. But here we're seeing a person who thinks that she knows what a person with PTSD acts like. A person with PTSD doesn't act like this at all. Now, we know that PTSD makes people behave lots of ways. But in my opinion, one of the biggest factors in PTSD is you have no place to put the information that occurs to you in your head. And you see that in people because they're all over the place. You're trying to prioritize and they're telling you about the most important thing that happened to them at the moment. It might not seem rational. That's not here. We see her doing things to protect self in a way that looks like I have PTSD. If you were to ask a person with PTSD, why they do the things that they wouldn't be able to tell you that unless they've been through some kind of therapy and they know there's more than six hours of this video. And here she's all baseline balled up. We're going to give you only a few clips, but she knows enough to be dangerous. And we're going to see a lot of Dunning-Kruger here where she thinks she knows what she's doing. And here's where she's locking herself down because she thinks if she adapts, if she adapts, it makes her look vulnerable. So she's going to try to lock it down. I think she's a gaslighter. And what gaslighters do is they get in, they make a crack and they expand. And I think that's exactly what we're going to see here. She's going to come in kind of demure and then she gets good holes, she'll start to expand it and do more stuff. And I'll tell you what I think that is later. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, interesting. So when I came on these videos, I had no idea who this is, what's going on here. I'm completely fresh and clean to it. You're going to hear the word extreme from me a lot around this first video. First of all, I would say what we're seeing is extreme cocooning, which is where she's bundled herself up. It's almost like there's a knit around her. And she's hiding in there. But we all might cocoon at some point. But this is extreme, extreme. It's interesting that you say, Greg, absolutist, because it's rather like you get this idea and then you're pushing it, pushing it, pushing it to as big or as small as you possibly can. So extreme cocooning there, extreme self soothing we have on the legs there. I don't mind seeing a little bit of that, but it's big. It's huge. It's massive. Extreme eye contact going on. Extreme eye blocking going on at the same time. Just after extreme eye contact, extreme evaluations. Great. Very, very, very, just extreme. She does name some emotions. That's interesting, frustrating, angry. And then later on, extreme enactment of what went on. Quite entertaining in a way, quite attractive, quite, quite interesting to look at those enactments. Same time, the guy in white, who I assume is the interviewer at this point is self soothing a little gently on the back of his head there. I don't think he's quite comfortable with this extreme that's going on. So look, it's your point, Greg. You know, I'm open at the start to the idea that we might have somebody who may have been traumatized in some way. But already it's just too extreme, especially that flip-flop between extreme eye contact and then extreme closure around that. At the moment, just too big. I'm already a little bit upset, already doesn't seem credible to me. Let's see how it continues. But Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, that was pretty extreme, Mark. Thank you. But in this one clip alone, I would have said there's something off about the entire case. You can see her pacifying a lot here, which Mark has talked about, which is almost always what people do during stressful situations. However, at the same time, she's not exhibiting many more signals of stress and she's doing quite the opposite of stress. She's demonstrating stress and self soothing behavior while trying to build rapport. That's the mistake. She's trying to build rapport with the interviewer here. And this behavior alone is so incredibly common in guilty people that I might say that it would be on my top five list of things to look for. But here she's also doing one more thing that you'll see is slightly unusual where she's essentially narrating a Yelp review of the experience of being found on the side of the road after her kidnapping. Still, there's no emotion and she's more focused on building rapport and being liked, which we see so often in cases like this just being liked, at least in their mind, will lead to be believed in the future. If I can get them to like me, they're more likely to believe me when the questions get a little bit harder in the future, when it's time for the story to come out. Scott, what do you got? I agree with you. And her demeanor for this is completely wrong, completely wrong. She's supposed to be talking about something that's given her PTSD, something that's been very traumatic. And she's smiling. She's laughing like you're saying, Chase, she's trying to bond with these guys and trying to make it and try to make like she's one of them. And she understands what's happening and what's going on. And I would I would understand being relaxed in another situation like this, some any other or lots of other situations, but not in this one. This is not from the get go. You see this and go, something's not right here. And you know, these guys had to see that too. And I think you can tell they've sort of got the shits and giggles because they're so upbeat with it all. They're like, we got this. Here's what, you know, I see it. I see it. And when they left, I know they were talking about they had to be talking about this. Her description of the way the police were treating her, the one officer that she that she didn't feel good about or had good feelings about or whatever. There's no frustration there. There's no anger there. There's no nothing. There's just her trying to bond with these guys and try to be one of them. Nothing there. Nothing is as it should be in this. They're missing so many things that should be going on. And just before she asked about going to that bathroom break, man, she starts rubbing her knees so hard with her open hand, with that open palm, rubbing that really hard. She's trying to she's she's trying to be relaxed as she's doing things that tell us that she's not relaxed, that she's like really being protective. She's balling up like that. What are you talking about, Mark Kukuni? She's she's totally barrier ring against everything possible. And I didn't think he could get any worse than this, but we see it get even worse later on down the road. It gets comically worse than this. And I think these these these guys, these interrogators, they know that something's up. And I think they're confident with it. And that's why I think they're their demeanor is the way it is, because they're probably thinking, I can't believe she's doing this like this. She doesn't know what we know about her. I don't know how much they know already about her, but they know enough by watching her in this situation that's enough to know that something's not right here. One of those tape replays was a blonde woman, but a smaller blonde woman. Was she CHP or was she? No, she was yellow. Can I check it's office? OK. But there was I don't know what he was. I want to say he was CHP because when the was the lady with the short black hair. She was the ID tag. She was great. And she was seemed to be very protective and because she was kind of talking to me a little bit, and I was I was very I was very angry and I was very frustrated because when they first pulled up, I asked them multiple times to cut off the zip tie because my hand was like turning blue, like my hand. I was cut off and they wouldn't do it. And that was very frustrating to me that I would cut it off. And I was telling her that and I said, you know, they wouldn't let me talk to me. That's what I want my husband. And they weren't even untie me. And he said, we did untie you. And I was like, get the fuck out. No, you did because he yelled back at me like we did. And I'm like, no, you didn't. And then you get there. Yeah, no. So I just was very very angry and that and that guy really didn't care for him. It's easy to do that. Yeah. Can I use the ladies room? Yes, absolutely. It's about me. It's a funny app. So you get almost to the mailboxes and your lips are like cracking. Do you need some water? No, no, everything's like this. So you're about to go right here. Sorry, you're good. You're about to the mailboxes. About to the mailboxes. And these are the mailboxes near. At the end of the sun. I just tried my mailbox. And if I forgot to tell you this one tidbit when we lay out the ground rules, sometimes we're going to ask some dumb questions for clarification. Like I just asked because I knew it was there. But for our case management, sometimes we have to ask clarifying questions. So if you if I ask a question or caught us a question, you're like, are you really that dumb? I don't know what's that mailbox. It's something you probably have a form that needs to be filled out for selfie. No, it's just because in court processes. So if you don't mind, I'll just digress for a minute and take a break. Yeah, that's OK. You say you were running to your mailboxes or the mailboxes and we and we move on through that. And two years down the road, he arrived or in court and somebody wants to ask us questions about the mailboxes. Well, how do you know it was for mailboxes? Did you ask her if it was the mailboxes? It's so that's kind of crap. We got to deal with some time. Got it. So that's why we ask some of the dumb questions because we get not so much on the prosecution side, but she knows what we're talking about. Defense attorneys to try to poke holes to try to do. Yeah, Keith and I have had that conversation as well because I told him one of, you know, things that I'm so before all of this, I watched those shows. I watched those shows and I, you know, and I've read Elizabeth Smart's book. Like I I don't know. I was the weird stay-at-home mom that watched the like, you know, random one of those shows called True Crime Story. Yeah, but the yeah, like the reality reality TV. I was like this stupid, I wasn't soap operaist, but it was reality TV. Like I watched all that stuff. So I like I'm thinking about that now. I might go, oh, my God, someone is going to be on her side defending her against all of this crap. And because I watched those shows, so I understand what you are saying. That's and that's where I'm coming from when we asked when if you ask a question, like, are you really that dense? You don't know what's no boxes. I'm talking about it's not because I'm dense. It's because I'm safeguarding us down the road so we so we can right. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, some more extreme cocooning going on. But now facing another interviewer, you know, it's great to see how she's managed to find it. I don't think I can quite do it, but she's managed to find a position whereby all the joints on the hands and the wrists are covered. The joints on the knees are covered as well. The head is tucked in. I mean, I understand the idea that she might be trying to play this this trauma idea and and, you know, that may well be on her mind. How do I look as vulnerable and protective as possible? At the same time, I think it's serving her that it is protecting her in a way that she she she probably knows she's telling some stories at this point. I'm already suspecting it because that first video was was a disaster for her. And so I think she has every good reason from an instinctual point of view to protect herself as much as she can. Look at that focus that she has on that interview almost goes into a trance state herself at that point as she's trying to take in what, you know, where's this going? Why is he talking about the bureaucracy of it in her mind? What's he got? Where's he going to go with this? This now turns into kind of competitive status luring by the two of them. The interviewer saying, look, I might ask some dumb questions, you know, but I'm not I'm not that dense and her going, well, I'm weird and I'm stupid and I'm stay at home. So there's a there's a competition here around who can lower their status and who can align with the other around that luring of status. So a nice little dance going on while she cocoons herself up. Lovely to see Scott. What do you got on this one? Yeah, you're right. The whole cocoon thing. She's almost completely buried, buried here, almost not yet. But we're going to get there in just a few minutes. Now, we're seeing a liar and experienced and prolific liar. We're going to find out prolific she is here a little while. But she knows this one counts. That's why we don't see her blink rays and skyrocketing in there. Their eyes are wide and she's staring at these guys because she's taking in information. She's trying to give as much information as she possibly can. And even though she's experienced, she's she she hasn't had to get into the minutiae of anything before. She's like her husband. She's like her boyfriend and some other people. And she's gone, you know, maybe 15 minutes, that max of lie. And here she's gone a really long time. And they don't ask you just about where were you? How did it go? What time was that stuff? And they get down to the look. They start microscopic on this. And it's working because she's having to think her brain, we're going to see her get worn out doing this a little while. She just gets completely wiped trying to think of all this small stuff because she has to make it all up. She has to create these little details that they're going to be asking her. She's having to make those things up. And we find out why she did this or where she came up with it because she says she watches true crime and stuff a lot. She said, oh, it's kind of stupid. I watch true crime stuff. People who watch true crime are into that. They're not stupid. They're not. They're inquisitive. They want to learn. That's why they're into that. Because they're they're learning about something. They have no idea how it works. But they say, hmm, I'm going to learn about that. We know that from experience, from talking to those people and and those people, that's us, too. But they're they're they're inquisitive. They want to know how to do that. What is up with that? They're trying to learn something. And if it wasn't that, it would be something completely different. Sorry, my phone rang and I had to knock it off the computer there. So I'll leave it there. Chase, what do you got? Right when she's saying before all of this, the word this is how she describes the entire ordeal, the hell that she claims to have been through. And it's specific to zero degree. She skipped over the entire ordeal, kidnapping details. The television shows, the different ideas within them. This is our first example of a detail valley where a specific spot in a conversation is lacking any relevant or specific detail about the event that's in question here. And it's a valley because it's followed by mountains of detail about everything else. So this behavior is classic, narcissistic rapport building. It contains little hints at being imperfect, lots of eye contacts, overly dramatized focus on the speaker and attempts at storytelling that are solely focused on her. Even this thing about talking about her lips, she felt comfortable interrupting them to do that just so she could talk a little bit more. And finally, we see her gathering social approval and checking every member of the conversation for confirmation of that rapport that she's trying. So in this rapport is more important than rescue. Here's why this matters, a tremendous degree. There are two reasons you might desperately need to connect to a detective in a situation like this. Either I need them because I've been through weeks of hell and torture and kidnapping and I'm latching on to an authority figure who symbolizes that level of rescue and symbolizes safety. Or I need them because I need them to like me and believe me. Those two, they both need them. But those two needs would show us wildly different behaviors. It's going to look way different. Greg, what do you think? Yeah, a couple of things. I don't think the reason she's talking about her lips is just to get control. I think, yes, that's part of it. But I think she's explaining a way with her donning crew, her brain, what she thinks they're reading. So she's paying attention to the fact that she might lick her lips and go, oh, I don't think I'm lying. But she doesn't pay attention to her blink right, which I love, because she can't control that. She can talk about her lips all day. She's telegraphing why she's going to do X or Y at every step of the way. And when I say somebody's gaslighting, that term is used so much. It comes from an old movie where a guy turns down the light constantly and tells the woman that she's losing her mind. And when people do that, it's not about facts, because they can't stand up with facts. What it's about is the person they're talking to. And so she's glomming on to this guy and sucking up to him and getting as close as she can. She's paying attention to him because she wants to know exactly whether he's receiving her message or not. It's an important part of how they function. And Scott, I agree with you. This is an old liar. This is a liar with a lot of experience. The way she lies in the next couple is why I love this video the most of anything we've seen. And I'll tell you why when we get there, if I can hold it that long. But this is an interesting one to watch because she's mechanically going through a process of, you know, if you think about these things, they make that you can slide like a balloon into a door and pump air into it and spread the door open. They use for rescuing people from a car. That's what she's doing. She's wedging herself in there, kind of doing a mural and then starting to expand and pay attention to this guy to where she can gaslight him. That's all she cares about is him, not the facts, not the story. Pay attention to what she's doing. And you can tell she's feeling stressed because at Blink Ridge, she can't hide that and she can't explain it away. So I got on this one. Greg, can you really quick explain the Dunning Kruger to everybody? Yeah, great idea. So it's simply if it's you think you know more about a topic than you do. Quite simply, a person goes in, they believe they have enough knowledge to be dangerous and they do dangerous to self. One of those tape replays. It's a funny app. So you get almost to the mailboxes and my lips are like cracking and do you need some water? No, no, everything's like this. So you're right here. Sorry, you're good. You're about to the mailboxes. About to the mailboxes. And these are the mailboxes near at the end of the sunrise drive by my mailbox. And if I forgot to tell you this one tidbit when we lay out the ground rules, sometimes we're going to ask some dumb questions to for clarification. Like I just asked because I knew it was there. But for our case management, sometimes we have to ask clarifying questions. So if you if I ask a question or ask a question, you're like, are you really that dumb? I don't know what's that in the box. It's something you probably have a form that needs to be filled out for something. No, it's just it's because. In court processes, so. If you don't mind, I'll just digress for a minute and take a break. Yeah, that's OK. You say you were running to your mailboxes or to the mailboxes and we and we move on through that. And two years down the road, he or I are in court and somebody wants to ask us questions about the mailboxes. Well, how do you know it was for mailboxes? Did you ask her if it was the mailboxes? So that's kind of crap. We got to deal with sometimes. So that's why we ask some of those dumb questions because we get not so much on the prosecution side, but she knows what we're talking about. Defense attorneys to try to poke holes to try to do. Yeah, Keith and I have had that conversation as well, because I told him one of, you know, things that I'm. So before all of this, I watched those shows. I watched those shows and I, you know, and I've read Elizabeth Smart's book. Like, I, I don't know. I was the weird stay home mom that watched the like, you know, random, one of those shows called True Prime Story. Yeah, but the, yeah, like the reality, reality TV. I was like this stupid, I wasn't so popular as reality TV. Like, I watched all that stuff. So I, like I'm thinking about that now, I might fall. My God, someone is going to be on her side, defending her against all of this crap. And because I watched those shows, so I understand what you are saying. And that's where I'm coming from when we asked, when if you ask a question, like, are you really that dense? You don't know what's no boxes. I'm talking about. It's not because I'm dense. It's because I'm safeguarding us down the road so we, so we can. Right. So we're kind of saying we've we've done a lot. So I don't care about that stuff and how on the outside, people may say or whatever, but on the inside here, it is what it is and we're and we're on your side. And we're here to defend. We're here to look for people that have earned the right. And I don't care about, you know, what people say about. It's easy to say that. I don't care. I care about here. Well, I mean, I imagine that those conversations have happened in the last couple of days or at least been touched a little bit. Yes. And they're going to and hopefully they got brought up when I told Keith from your get-go. Don't look into this anymore. It's very little to nothing. It's it's minute enough. We have to chase it. That's what I told them. We have to look into it. We had to see it. And what we investigated, we found out that it was it was miniscule, if anything, if you want to call it that. And that's what I told him specifically. But, you know, he didn't have anything else to do with it. He didn't have anything else to do with it. So it wasn't. So that was from the very get-go right after that went down. I told Keith that, that it was miniscule to nothing. But we had we have to look into it. We have to get it sorted out, figured out. And that falls on that. That's the two lines that I told them. It was it was always we were always going down two roads. The abduction because we had nothing or the, you know, you possibly had left because that's the only those are the only two options that we had had. And the easiest one to look at is if you walked out or not, there's money. There's I can dive into you six ways from Sunday. And I didn't find some stuff, but on this, on this rare abduction side, we're looking at chances. I'm looking at somebody driving by noticing something and now finding that person who saw that minute detail that I need as opposed to either there's paper on you, you're a normal people, you pay to bills. Like I can find those people all the time. But now, and that's why that investigation was always going two ways. Keith and I talked on Saturday. All right, Chase, what do you got? So the video starts and her blink rate is pretty average. And then Keith moves near her. And there's only just this brief touch. Nothing prolonged that was suggested. Maybe she's been through a kidnapping and desperately needs to feel comfortable with him again. And this in and of itself isn't much of a huge flag. We can call it dark orange, but the kicker here. And what I think that you watching this you're going to remember for the rest of your life once you see it is her level of focus when the detective starts discussing the investigation and just the potential that she ran out and left Keith. When you hear the detective say, we're always going down two roads. That's when I want your eyes to get ready when this comes back on. The precise second that he mentions the possibility of her leaving on her own, the blink rate goes to zero or just about. This is a massive change in her behavior. And remember that if you're a profiler, deception detection should, in my opinion, I won't speak for everybody else, it should take a backseat to change detection. So this hyper focus is just stunning to me. And when you're talking to a criminal and an opportunity to gain intelligence is there, like how an investigator feels about a case or what they know, you'll see this exact behavior. So now you can think back to how it all looks. How would a person who was kidnapped react to hearing that the investigators are considering that she just walked out? If you can imagine that, then you'll see how insane this clip was for us to see. Scott, what do you got? All right, I agree with you. And I think she's in collection mode. It's the same stuff Greg's been talking about. Those eyes are wide open. She's focused on that guy and she's been in romance mode. That's where she's trying to be friendly and bond with them, do all that. Now she's collecting information because they've stepped into a little section where she has no idea what she's gonna say next, especially when she brought up the stuff you were talking about, Chase. She's like, whoops. Yeah, because she's not expecting that. She's expecting to tell a story and that be it. That's the way these people work. I worked a lot with the liars. And so that's what's happening. So she's collecting all the information she can and she's gonna continue to mimic them and try to bond with them the whole time. And it gets more intense as we go along. Now we're not seeing what we should be seeing here. We're not seeing concern. We're not seeing worry. We're not seeing frustration. We're not seeing anger. We're seeing nothing that says, she's been through a very traumatic experience and we're talking about it. We're not seeing any of that. That is, that's a huge red flag right there. That's one for you where you go, holy smokes. Because if you saw this out of context and somebody said, we think's happened here. You wouldn't be able to tell it was something not, it would be a thing big. You'd say, well, I don't know, it's nothing bad. But somebody who's been through that, they have a completely different look on her face, on their face. So, and hers is just blank right now because she's collecting information, watching as much as she can, observing as much as she can with what she thinks these guys might know. Cause she can't tell if they know more than, at this point it's not putting her on notice. But she's like, after that one statement, you're right, Chase. She's like, wait a minute, whoops. Now I gotta really focus on what's happening. Cause she's, again, she's got to start creating stuff. She's going to start asking her questions. She's got to come up with the minutiae and the details. She's going to get worn out. We're going to see her get tired of doing this. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, let's do some basic biology. Everybody's always trying to get back to homeostasis. They're always trying to get back to what's comfortable. If you've had a trauma of some sort, your body and mind is trying to get back to what was comfortable. Now it may not make it back and that can cause all kinds of awful behaviors to have to deal with, traumatic behaviors that would display to somebody that there's a problem going on. Have a look at her behavior and think, are you seeing somebody who's trying to get back to comfort? Or are you seeing somebody who's ramping it up and ramping it up and ramping it up? Because if she has been traumatized, that would already be enough. You'd be wanting to move away from that. But it's ramping up and it's ramping up even when she's really not talking about what should have caused the trauma. So look, we've also got some extreme acceptance and compliance. I don't care, says the interviewer. She repeats back later. I don't care. That is too much of a mirror. It's too extreme for me. It's too much with the same strength, with the same tone. She's trying to be too friendly, too compliant. I agree with you, Chase. We've got to look for changes here. And I love that you mentioned the outreach that she does to her partner. I'm guessing, did you say his name was Keith or something like that? Quite a lovely, I think, tender touch there would have been great if there wasn't such an extreme change of retraction afterwards. I would have bought that if it had stayed there long enough. But the change is too abrupt, too quick that my brain goes, not only my instinct, but my intellect goes, that's too fast. That's too big a change, too quick. There's something going on here. And then there's a cascade of other facial behaviors here. The interviewer says, I can dive into you. I can dive into you, saying, you know, we could investigate you. I think we see contempt, which is the upturn of the mouth asymmetrically. I think we see an eye block as well. Eyes go down. I think we see fear. We see the teeth in a wallace and grommet way as well. So some quite extreme fear. And I think those cascade together. And I think she doesn't want us to see those. But if you slow that down or you break that down, you will see them for sure. Greg, my guess is you saw those ones as well. Oh, yeah. Mark, I've got some of the same words. But my favorite part is the wallace and grommet piece. And I'll talk about that specifically in just a second, because I exactly what I have on mind. So she starts off by burying. And what I mean by that barrier, all that locking up, I think she understands barriers and adapters and illustrators probably. And she probably understands licking your lips, mean some stress or that kind of thing. So she's going to overdo all that so that she can hide it. That's people's too much data. You know, it's too much data for you to intake. You get a skewed baseline, then I can hide it. People all think they can do that. We're back again in Kruger. But she starts off with a tighter barrier, even compared to her baseline we've seen up to now. And she adapts by squeezing those knees together, even tighter when the guy starts talking about whether she's discussed this with her husband really tight. And then when he starts to talk about looking up her background, you see even more. And that hard eye contact with increased respiration as he starts to talk about looking at your background is a great indicator. She's doing hard eye contact for intake again. She's back to romance her thing. We always talk about a true crime from the true crime workshop. I don't see that as affection. I think this is who she is. Gaslighters have a hard time doing more than one person at a time. And they want to make sure they got control over their asset. That's what I think it is. She reaches out, brings him over, wants to make sure he's still on her team. And she even does a quick little pet and then moves on. I think it's a quick little pet. It's an adapter. Because if it were just a quick little pet, she wouldn't move immediately to herself afterwards. So she's adapting there. Again, I don't see this as overly anything affectionate. She does a cutesy eye contact thing and then does coy and rolls her head down. That's just to escape. That's all it is. When she raises her head is when you see those gromit teeth, those Wallace and gromit teeth. When she raises her head, her eyes aren't smiling and those Wallace and gromit teeth there. That's fear. And it's not the eke face that we talked about before where you're trying to make social contact and go, oh, I made a mistake. It's fear. It's showing it. And then she does no eye contact for the first time she's breaking eye contact with him. She's keenly aware that this is going on. If you don't believe me, she adapts one last time and she's trying to keep her hands locked down. So she rubs her chin on her hand instead of doing it the other way. Really interesting to see. And kind of a dumb idea to start from here. But I think she's got so much absolutist that if I scratch my nose, it means I'm a liar. And she's got so much body language stuff in her head that she's trying to keep it gripped. It's gonna come undone and we'll see it in grand fashion. All right, if you don't know who we are, we're the behavior panel. And I'm Scott Rouse, my body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation and body language. And I created the number one online body language course bodylanguagetactics.com with Greg Hartley. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. Help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility. Every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7, Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes, did 20 years in the US military, wrote the number one best-selling book on behavior profiling, influence and persuasion. I train intelligence operatives and people just like you. You can type my name into your app store. Greg. Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written 10 books on body language and behavior, including one that's in the top 10 for business negotiation. The most dangerous business book you'll ever read and put together the body language tactics course, Scott, with Scott Cross. So I shit this. Must have all of my own book. And it made me. Hey, Mark, explain the Gromit Wallace situation. Wallace and Gromit. So there's great animator, great animator out there called Nick Parks, British guy, really renovated stop motion animation using little plaster scene figures. Incredible, incredible animator. Came up with a character called Wallace and Gromit. Wallace is an inventor and Gromit is his dog. And when they get scared, there's brilliant shots of them on a fairground ride. I think, yeah, yeah, the teeth. I can't. Chase, you're doing it best there. You'll do it. Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. And what's brilliant about it in terms of animation is of course it's very, very big animation, but he's absolutely captured the true facial gesture of extreme fear. It's just, you know, and you feel it, you look at those pictures and you go, I know what that is. I know what that is. And it's so good because, you know, if you can get a dog, a plaster scene dog to do that and you feel the fear for them, that that's the brilliance of animation. So there's, there's my Wallace and Gromit for you. You know, Pyle's working on a book around animation and all of that and how much, how well they do with body arms. And I think he's right because they have to use non-human features and make us feel whatever little blob. Yeah. I mean, it's, we know it's easier with using animals instead of human beings because the human beings get into an uncanny valley really quick. Like we really know how human beings react whereas we don't know what dogs do really. So that's why, you know, that's why Mickey Mouse works so well and Polar Express doesn't because too many human beings in it. Good point. Yeah. Yeah. One of those tapery plays. So what Kyle's saying, we've done a lot of work. So I don't care about that stuff and how on the outside people may say or whatever but on the inside here, it is what it is. And we're on your side. Okay. We're here to defend. We're here to look for people that have earned the right. And I don't care about, you know what people say about it. It's easy to say that. I don't care. I care about here. Well, I care about here. I imagine that those conversations have happened in the last couple of days or at least been touched a little bit. Yes. And they're gonna, and hopefully they got brought up what I told Keith where we were to get you. Don't look into this anymore. It's very little to nothing. It's minute enough. We have to chase it. And that's what I told him. We have to look into it. We had to see it. And what we investigated, we found out that it was miniscule, if anything, if you want to call it that. And that's what I told him specifically. But, you know, Keith, you didn't have anything else but you didn't have anything else to do with that. So it wasn't, so that was from the very get go right after that went down. I told Keith that it was miniscule to nothing but we have to look into it. We have to sort it out, figure it out. And that falls on the two lines that I told him. It was always, we were always going down two roads. The abduction, because we had nothing or the, you know, you possibly had left because that's the only, those were the only two options that we had had. And the easiest one to look at is if you walked out or not, there's money. I can dive into you six ways from Sunday and I can find some stuff. But on this, on this rare abduction side, we're looking at chances. I'm looking at somebody driving by noticing something minute. And now finding that person who saw that minute detail that I need, as opposed to either there's paper on you, you're a normal, you pay the bills, like I can find those people all the time. So now, and that's why that investigation was always going two ways. Keith and I talked on Saturday. Can you keep asking small questions if that helps? Or do you just want me to think about what we can do about it? I walked towards where the vehicle had backed up but was still far enough away from it that because I was still cautious. I had my phone in my right hand and my earbuds on and I took out my left to hear her and then she opened the door and then I saw the small revolver and I immediately ducked down. I crouched down. Like in a ducking, crouching. Like all the way on the ground? So like the field position, why like they had captured the position? I mean, my knees weren't on the ground. It was almost, yes. Okay, so across the road, phones in my hand, earbud out, towards the vehicle, this, not all the way down, squatting, not crouching, squatting. Laid my phone down. I can't remember if she said we don't want to hurt you. We don't want to kill you. I can't remember exactly if it's, we don't want to something. We don't want to something. We don't want to. And then I put my phone. Do you want to come back up to the table? Distraction. Take a drink of water if you need to. And I want to run something by you and see if this might be able to help a little bit. Bruh, do some more. You're good. You're recalling things. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, she goes, this is one of the best up to now because now she's going to give us the details. She's going to give us details of actually being abducted, which is a big deal. I mean, look, if you ask me about something horrendous, even my school days, I'd probably remember it was some emotion as I got bagged and tagged, you know, that kind of thing. So she goes into transfer, which is what now we're talking to the true crime workshop again. We talk about a romance or being a person who stares at you and only has eyes for you as they do data intake, but it transfers when they go into emotion and get out of your way, so you can't get them. They may sit and nod or do something or cry. She does a pretty horrific cry. And her husband looks like he's going to respond. I'm thinking if he thinks that's a cry man, he's been worked a time or two, but he doesn't get up and go, which is kind of interesting. In the lead up to this is when she, and we didn't include it in the video, but she asked, is it okay if I close my eyes because I remember better. Again, here you go. I don't want you to read my eye movement. So I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to close my eyes so you can't see me. This is where she starts to sound like she's scripted and like she's doing what she thinks PTSD survivors have gone through and how they work. She does a recap, I mean, a recap of what she's already said, walking through it. If it's traumatic, I'm pregnant and go, and then I did this and then, and then boom, boom, boom, do three steps. Just really weird. And there's no stress, no residual emotion, no fear, no anger. It's like she's saying, well, I went to the, I went to the Dollar General and they had a sale on Kale, but it looked like it was a little wilted. It's about that much emotion to it. And then she says, and it sounds like she's looking for words. I just, this cry is a down the well cry, meaning a person does whatever they can do to make a lot of noise. When she comes up, she doesn't have a snotty nose. She doesn't have any tears. She doesn't have a red nose. There's a quiet, I call it a quiet weep of high school plays. What she's doing, just kind of snickering. And then what she's starting to do here, in my opinion, one of the things that I've always taught people, there are four kinds of lies in my book. One is a live omission, where I leave something out. One's a lie commission, where I tie things together and make up facts. One is a lie of embellishment. The fish was this big, but one's a lie of transference, where I take elements of Chase's life and turn them into mine. If I use transference, it's the hardest lie to break because I'm using facts from something else. So if I tell you that the sweatpants I was wearing had a string that looked like, well, hell, I got another pair of sweatpants. I can do that. But I say, I got in the back seat, when I was forced to, I could be reliving something not related and lying. We're starting to see that, that's my opinion. Scott, what do you got? All right, this, when she's answering, as she's sitting there with her head looking down, it sounds like she's at a seance. And one of those people that like channel somebody and they're telling them what they say, your mother was, you know, whatever. That's what it sounds like. She's just what it looks like she's doing. So when you watch that again, pay attention to that and pretend that's what's happening. I think this is great because we're seeing her create stuff on the fly. Again, this is a great example of this. And what's happening is, when the situation she's describing happens, you don't remember, your brain doesn't catch that information in sections like that. It catches it in groups and flashes because your brain's doing a lot when something traumatic like that happens. When something that exciting happens, somebody opens the door up and they've got a gun. You don't remember all the details of taking one ear out and doing all these things. You don't because you can't. That's why people describe things in flashes they see. She doesn't, like you keep saying Greg, she doesn't know how to act with someone who's had a traumatic experience. She doesn't know how that works. She's pretending she knows because your brain can't catch that information a little bit in a linear fashion. It catches it in groups and in spots. Now, normally when somebody pulls up and opens the door, you could be watching, but when there's a gun, everything after that is all about the gun. That's the only thing you would remember. I wanna make sure I get that part in there too. Now they're starting to ask your details and they're starting to get, this is where the true crime stuff that she thinks she knows and she's so much smarter about. She doesn't know it's okay to not remember. She doesn't realize it. She's supposed to be, oh, I'm all true crummy. I understand what's happening. No, she's got it wrong. She doesn't know it's okay. Say, I just don't remember, man. I don't know. And these guys would go, well, you know, that's normal. Here's what happened. And they would know that. It's in the first time they've talked to somebody who's supposedly had a traumatic experience. So she's just doing it wrong. And then she starts crying and stuff because she can't keep up. She can't keep it going. She can't create those details which she thought she had under control. But as she starts to get to the minutia of it, she's starting to get worn out. That's why she starts crying and insulating herself like Greg was saying. We talked about romancing. We're like, yeah, let's talk. Let's do this. I'm connected with you. And then we're talking about insulating where you cry so much or you're so upset nobody can talk to you. The whole thing shuts down because she's inconsolable. We can't talk to her. So that's why she starts crying. That's why that stuff's happening. Chase, what do you got? Did you all notice? She said, I pulled my left ear butt out and like pulled her right ear. I thought that was strange. I missed that. But let's really quick, let's talk about some words. I'm a big fan of words. In his research, a guy named Dr. Pinnabaker, and he's written a few books called The Secret Life of Pronouns, a couple of those, found that deceptive statements tend to contain fewer unique words and more repeating words than truthful statements. And this is because when people lie, they often rely on prefabricated statements. And Greg, to your point, borrowing from other stories helps you to prefabricate a lot of that stuff. In scripts, instead of generating new ideas to recall memories, and which we would call a varied vocabulary. So to test this hypothesis, to allow me to get into the nerdy stuff for a second, Dr. Pinnabaker and other people doing the research where they've conducted a lot of experiments. And in one of them, participants were asked to write either a truthful or a deceptive statement about a negative event in their lives. The researchers found that the people who were instructed to write the lie, the deceptive statement used fewer unique words and more repeating words compared to those who wrote a truthful one. And one more, when they're asked to play a game when they either lied or told the truth about the number of dots on a computer screen, the researchers analyzed the language used by the students and found that even verbally, more repetitive language in the deceivers. And I'll put the links to those studies in the comments down here. But with this, she uses and then five times. She uses and 10 times separately from the and then 10 more times. There's also a severe drop in pronouns that are not the word I right when she's talking about this crouching movement next to this car. And lastly, there's this great example of a detailed mountain and valley. All these details of the phone in the hand, the angle of her body, positions and distances, precise, perfect performance of this squat on the ground and the detail where her hands were. And then zero, literally zero detail about the horrifying woman in the car pointing a deadly weapon at her. The emotional and most important part of the entire story. That's all I got. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so first off, a little bit of intonation. Phone in the right hand, upward intonation on that. My guess is no phone in the right hand, no phone. That didn't happen. Most of this did not happen. In fact, I don't think any of it happened at all. Listen, transference and trance, great idea. She's in an almost meditative trance state. And Scott, you're like this. I wrote down here, channeling the experience. Channeling the experience. It is Madam Akate having a seance and she's hidden herself in there and she's hoping the spirits will bring down some story somewhere that will channel out of her. I've never seen anything like this. There's making up a story, but she literally seems to be hoping that some other entity will embody her and give her this story. It's quite extraordinary. There's almost no illustrators at all. Some come along, but there's no outward vision of the act. I mean, I'd expect the eyes to look out and see some of the geography, see some of the things, point out to stuff. It's all so internal. It's all so cocooned and bound up. There's no, when she explains about the gun, there's no retreat from a gun at all. It's not embodied by her. She doesn't talk about any retreat from a gun. The crying, Greg, I absolutely agree. I would expect my assumption would be, and I'd probably be quite right, that she should be displaying panic crying. She should be higher up. She shouldn't be able to control it. What she's trying to do is do sorrow crying. It's not a good act, but it's a bad act of the wrong type of crying as well. So it really is high school amateur dramatics going on. I think her partner knows it. Just as I think you were saying, Chase, that the partner does look at her, but there's no attempt to make any contact. In fact, he buries his head away. I think he already knows this is, they're summing up with this. It's not quite right. And in fact, as we progress through these videos, you're gonna start to see how he starts to smell it really badly and how their relationship starts to transform as he starts to get the hang of it. As he starts to get the sense that this is, she's not quite been through the trauma she's making out here. One of those tape replays. Can you keep asking small questions if that helps or do you just want me to think about it or if you move on? I walked towards where the vehicle had backed up but was still far enough away from it that because I was still cautious. I had my phone in my right hand and my earbuds on and I took out my left to hear her and then she opened the door and then I saw the small revolver and I immediately ducked down. I crouched down, like in a ducking, crouching. Like all the way on the ground. So like the fetal position, why like the catcher doesn't- I mean my knees weren't on the ground. It was almost- Can you turn this around? Yes. Okay, so across the road, phones in my hand, earbud out, towards the vehicle, this, not all the way down, squatting. I'm crouching, squatting. Layed my phone down. I can't remember if she said, we don't want to hurt you. We don't want to kill you. I can't remember exactly if it's, we don't want to something. We don't want to something. We don't want to. It's so good. And then I put my phone down. Do you want to come back up to the table? Direction. Take a drink of water if you need to. And I want to run something by you and see if this might be able to help a little bit. Bruh, do some more. You're good. You're recalling things. Because there was a drawstring on the sweat pants. There was a drawstring on the sweat pants and the other one didn't have a drawstring. How many times do you think you were changed or have changed your clothes? Obviously at least twice. Yeah, I think maybe one more time. Did it seem like the clothes were new? The, wait a minute, the sweatshirt, the top, the top was changed more because I was trying to, I was trying to manipulate her. My skin was really, my skin was like on fire. It was really itchy everywhere. And I started this rash that's up in here. It was starting to like swell, starting to swell so bad that it was like putting pressure on my arm. So I was trying to manipulate them. I need some kind of medicine. Like look at my skin. You need to wash me. You need to give me medicine. You need to get me something. And I was using that and it was so, so they would argue about washing my clothes. And I was able to take two, I want to say two showers. Call them a shower. It was get in, rinse water down your back and get out. But she let me wash my underpants in the shower. Were you able to see at that time or were you still had a background? No, I could see. And that was when I was trying, it was always look down. Don't look at us, look down. I was never allowed to look up. The first day with the zip ties, getting out of them because they were behind, they were behind my back. So I pulled them, I did one of these moves. And that's what this scar right there is from is the very beginning when I got them off. And I bit them because I couldn't, because Keith and I have even tried this move before the whole, you know, like power through it and bust it. And I tried that and was unsuccessful. And it cut right here. And I was like, I remember doing this with Keith. How the F do I get these off? And I tried that several times and I tried the power, bust it down. And that's where it cut in right there. And then I was like, I can't bust through them. So then I just chewed it off. And I cut my lip right here and then I busted them. And then it was like, I tried the door. I could tell that the door had a deadbolt at the top. So I couldn't open the door and then they came in. And that's all I remember from that experience. There's something else. There's something else before I tried the door. There was something else before I tried the door. The window? Tell her that. Chase, what do you got? Let's talk about repetition of words again. So let's go through what was repeated here. And I'm going to give you the phrases or topics that were repeated twice or more in this tiny little clip. Draw string on the sweatpants, starting to swell. You need to wash me. Skin itching, that was a three times. Look down three times. The first day, two times. Bust the zip ties four times. And then before I tried the door was two times. This is great. When she reenacts the busting of the zip ties, there's no trauma, no emotion, no fear, no sadness, no grief, just laughing and building rapport. That should be a little scary. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I love the grooming of the hair there on I was trying to manipulate them. And she grooms across there. The reason we often groom with the hair is to show how healthy we are, to show what a good catch we are, to show because this is a history of our health. It's a history of our diet. It shows us what we were at least recently and most recently. And that's why across cultures we often see in males and females, big displays of hair because it says, I'm powerful, I have strength, I have access to resource. Why she'd need to do that on saying that she was trying to manipulate people who had her at a disadvantage? But as her hair was not really in her eyes, it had come right up at that point. And most of the other time, she'd been trying to hide herself there. So there's some interesting thumb pumping that she does as well, which is out of sync with the story. So I'd say there are some small baton gestures which are out of sync. She's still very cocooned. All the story is still very much internal rather than external. It's all not very good. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so if you were talking about her being a psychic in the last one, this one's really where she's a psychic. She even raises her head up like, hold on, I'm getting something else. I loved it. It's just one. Now, let me tell you why I love this video so much. This is where I realized, this is a Bigfoot story. That's all it is. This is a Bigfoot story. And the reason it's a Bigfoot story is because in a Bigfoot story, you have to get past the hurdle, the big hurdle of I saw Bigfoot. And then you get to make up all kinds of bullshit about what Bigfoot was doing, like grabbing turkeys and stuff. And when you get to make stuff up, you get to talk and you can just make stuff up all day. As long as you don't get called on it again, that's where we're at. She's just past the hurdle about getting abducted, the gun and all that. Now she gets to make up stuff about what kind of clothes she was wearing. There's no fight or flightness. I don't see a respiration increase. I don't see anything else. She's got carte blanche to lie now because if I was already where Bigfoot was and you believe I saw him, now I get to tell you what kind of clothes he was wearing and what he did for hobbies and what female Bigfoot. This is Mike Woolley. This is Mike Woolley all over again. She just happens to be, not Mike Woolley, but the story is a good one. As you walk through it, you'll see exactly that. There's another interesting thing. When she does start to lie, she's going to get better. She'll get more details. Chase, to your point, she's repeating things because they're easy for her to do. I also think she's using things from her past, like her drawstring. I could get that from watching a commercial. I can get that from something else. It's easy details. She's passed a threshold. Now she can do whatever she wants. There's that end then you talked about the last one, we hear that again. That's a way to hide time and for a way for her to walk out. And she does one of my favorite things. I'm just going to jump right into it. Mark, when she flips her hair, I think that's her again. That's her saying, hey, I did this. And now she's trying to get, I can start to give you details, but then she does old chaff and redirect. Well, the shower. And she's going to start using, she will use all kinds of provocative statements and chaff and redirect to control the conversation here. So she can tell you all about the big foot's mating habits. Scott, what do you got? All right, I agree with you. And this is again, a great example of creating on the fly because she's not ready for these questions. She doesn't have the minutiae of the details worked out. That's why we're seeing her get tired. She could not be more barriered. The only way she could be more barriered is if she dug a hole and then had somebody put dirt in the hole so it would cover her up. She's covering up everything. I've never seen this before. And I've never seen in person before. This is fascinating. Excuse me to me. I did a little fly. A little nap. Did you guys see that? No. The net going my mouth. Dang it. We're going to have to get better cameras for the whole insect action that might start happening in this show. I know, I know. Anyway, so our eyes are wide and your eyebrows are up a little bit. She's got that request for approval. She's trying her hardest to keep bonding. She's trying to do like nine things at once. She's trying to bond with them. She's trying to lie to them. She's making stuff up. She's trying to remember what she said. She's got to think about what's going to happen. And the whole time, we're just seeing her, I hate to say implode because imploding isn't what most people say it is. It's something completely different. But she's starting to just crumble together like the bandwitch in the Wizard of Oz. She's starting to crumble. When she starts talking about that fighting about a shower and the clothes and stuff, no, that's not the way trafficking works. You're not going to get a shower. You're not going to get your clothes cleaned. That's not going to happen in there. So we know that's not true. And I'm sure these guys are like, I think they're very controlled because how could they not go to look at each other and go, did you got to be kidding me? In the middle of that, stopping and going, really? Did you see what she's, that's hilarious. There's, I don't see how they can stop, could keep from doing that. I think it's that important. I thought I was mute for a second there. I thought she goes with that look on Greg's face. I thought I was muted. I think this is just a great example, again, of creating on the fly. I'm with you, Greg. I love this. I think it's awesome. I really do. So is her story here that she was getting trafficked by Mexicans then? Is that her? No, there's no reason. She was just abducted. Oh, so she never came up with a reason as to why this occurred? No, no. That would be my, that would be the first place I'd go. So when, you know, she's trafficking. Because they haven't done anything to her. They haven't, you know, it's for what she's describing. She's just saying they ever happened. She just says she got caught and then was let go. So she never comes up with a motive? No, no. I still don't know. Do we know what the motive was? Just attention or was there money involved? She's not doing it. She's nuts. She's nuts. Chase, did you go already? Yeah, I didn't. Okay. Yeah, I think we're all done. I don't think they know a couple of things to give you data points. Guess how her nose got broke? I do. She held a hockey stick in front of her face and let her boyfriend punch it. Yeah. Yeah, wait till later. Not the guy with her. Her ex-boyfriend, her ex-boyfriend. Wait till later. I'll show you where that shows up. It's beautiful. Hey, one last note since we're going to leave this in. Pay attention to her story from now on and treat it like a big foot story and see does it sound like a big foot story. My watch is telling me it's time to stand. I got to go, guys. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha. You better stand for it. Better be compliant. What are you standing for? You need to agree with the watch. Just stand for nothing. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha. Yeah, man. One of those tape replays. Because there was a drawstring on the sweatpants. There was a drawstring on the sweatpants and the other one didn't have a drawstring. How many times do you think you were changed or have changed clothes? Obviously at least twice. Yeah, I think maybe one more time. Did it seem like the clothes were new? The... Wait a minute. The sweatshirt, the top. The top was changed more because I was trying to... I was trying to manipulate her. My skin was really... My skin was like on fire. It was really itchy everywhere and I started this rash that's up in here. It was starting to swell. Starting to swell so bad that it was putting pressure on my arm. So I was trying to manipulate them. I need some kind of medicine. Look at my skin. You need to wash me. You need to give me medicine. You need to get me something. And I was using that and it was so... So they would argue about washing my clothes. And I was able to take two... I want to say two showers. Call them a shower. It was get in, rinse water down your back and get out. But she let me wash my underpants in the shower. Were you able to see at that time or were you still had a background? No, I could see. And that was when I was trying... It was always look down. Don't look at us, look down. I was never allowed to look up. The first day with the zip ties getting out of them because they were behind my back. So I pulled them. I did one of these moves. And that's what this scar right there is from is the very beginning when I got them off. And I bit them because I couldn't... Because Keith and I have even tried this move before. The whole power through it and bust it. And I tried that and it was unsuccessful. And it cut right here. And I was like, I remember doing this with Keith. How the F do I get these off? And I tried that several times and I tried the power bust it down and that's where it cut in right there. And then I was like, I can't bust through them so then I just chewed it off. And I cut my lip right here and then I busted them. And then it was like I tried the door. I could tell that the door had a deadbolt at the top. So I couldn't open the door. And then they came in and that's all I remember from that experience. No, there's something else. There's something else before I tried the door. There was something else before I tried the door. The window? What's the comment about when you were on the cable? What do you mean? A minute ago you said when I was on the cable, were you tethered to a cable? There was a chain around my waist. So the chain had... I'm sorry. Okay, sorry, the chain, the chain. The shuttle, she'll go up. There's a pretty stupid girl. Let's show the whole room, you wanna do that? Sure. We'll lay up the whole room. I'm trying to think where to start with the direction. So here's the door. Here's the closet. The closet had two doors. Here's the hinge here. Here's the hinge here. They shut inward. Here's the doorknob here. There was like some kind of holders because they would lock it with some kind of thing to keep it shut when I was, when they were, I think I wanna say when they were maybe changing the bedding or changing, but more often than not, or if they maybe had to go outside to get something I was in here because I could sometimes hear a door. They would put me in here. And then there was, I'm bad with dimensions. So let's just say here's the closet and here's, we're going up this direction. Does that make sense towards this ceiling? There was a shelf and okay. So I could, the shelf was maybe, I could touch it, I had this much leverage. So I could touch it. So it was probably the shelf was maybe this tall because I could grab it, but I couldn't push it up. If I could push it up, if I was tall enough to push it out up, I would have been able to get out, but I wasn't tall enough to push it all the way up. So the shelf, I could grab like the ledge. You know, if I was on my tip, tip, tip toes, I could grip the ledge. And then there was this pole, this stretch here came down like all the way up. Fucking pole is the only reason why I was there. The cable was here and it needed a turn. I'm sorry for swinging. And then the cable, I could reach all the way to the bed. Couldn't reach the door. Couldn't reach the window. Couldn't reach the bed. There was a, at all times, there was a bucket in the closet. That's what I used to go to the bathroom in. All right, I'll go first on this one. Again, her demeanor doesn't match the situation. She should not be looking this way when she's talking about something this horrible. And what she's describing here is, and I think I gotta figure it out, she's describing a five-star experience of being trafficked. That's what's kidnapping trafficking. It's just the top end. Think about it, she's got her own room. They've put her in her own room. And then they put a chain around her, right? And then hooked her to a cable so she can run around in the room, do anything she wanted, except she can't get to the door. That's the only thing. She can't quite reach the door with this cable, right? And she can go in the closet if she wants to, she's got her own bathroom in there. She got everything. This is awesome. They change her bedding. They kidnap her and they change her bedding. Now, usually what happens when something like this happens, you get changed to the radiator. You don't get changed, you get handcuffed to the radiator. Most times they got handcuffed and you're just like there. And you're in the same room with these people so they can watch you and make sure you don't get away. Cause if you do, they're done. It's over forever for these people. None of that. They're not concerned about that. They think about this. It's crazy talk. This is when these guys, I think at that point, were like, well, we got this. It's nothing. From here on out, she's done. She's done. Think about what's happening here. They're catering to her every need. The things that she thinks that people need that would happen. Remember, Greg, when I asked you about Sears School and you remember that one question I asked you, I said, when do you get to go to the bathroom? You said, you don't. I was like, well, what if you have to go? And you said, you go. You just go. Yeah. So in this case, she doesn't understand that. She doesn't understand if you've been kidnapped or you're being trafficked. They don't care. They don't care about whether you've had a shower. They don't care about whether your clothes are clean. They don't care about changing your bedding. None of that. None of that. They care about that you don't leave. That's their main concerns. Keeping an eye on you. You can't do that if you give them their own room. So, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, just as extraordinary, that extreme change in her voice where she, what I would call infantilizes her voice, makes it childish. Why would she want to do that? Well, to make herself more likeable, more cute, to get more positive attention. Why would somebody need more positive attention? They've been abducted. They've been through a trauma. The authorities have shown up. It's their job to find the culprits and make her safe. She doesn't need to infantilize. Well, clearly because this hasn't gone on. It hasn't happened. And she is worried that they won't like her. Why? Because she's lying. Clearly this is going on. But look at that extreme change. Again, as Chase was saying, look for the change. Don't look for the deception. Because if you look for the extreme change, you're more likely to trip over what essentially may well be deception. Not always. So we're not always going, look, let's look for deceptive clues here or cues. We're looking for change. And then we're going, what would that change mean? The change could mean truth as much as it could mean deception. It's just in this particular case. When we put it together with what she's saying and what else has gone on, it absolutely reeks of deception. And I think at this point as well, she's now trying to strategize the story. And she's just not prepared for what her strategy is here, let alone the details of the strategy. Look, if you're going to come up with a really good lie, you want a really good strategy, first of all. You want some good scaffold, a good structure. And then you're going to brick it up with all the detail. And it may take some time to really brick that up and live it out a bit and explore it and look around every corner because you don't know what people are going to ask. She's just not prepared on this one. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'd take it a step further. I think she thinks she's prepared. I think, again, we're done in Kruger. She thinks she knows how this is going to work. And she thinks this is a big foot story. Well, I was in the trailer. You weren't. I was in the house. You weren't. The problem is that we, Scott, you just said it. We know how people who abduct typically take care of people. Now, is it possible this happened? Sure. It could happen this way because you could have dumb and dumber as your kidnappers, too. I mean, they could just have you in a doghouse or in a fenced-in yard. Who knows? But what we don't usually see is people thinking about how it actually works. She's watched true crime. So she's tried to figure out how it would work. She has not identified the risk here. Your brain would identify a risk if something like this were really happening to you. And it would not be having all these details about which way the fricking doors open. It would say the door that opened that caused somebody to hit me in the head with a board was always opening this way. So I could tell which side of the door were going to open. Wouldn't care about that closet. Wouldn't care about a lot of things. Now, are there exceptions? Yes. People whose brains are trained will look for it. For example, I did debriefing of folks who went on missions and came back. And even they would forget things. You'd have to ask them questions specific to rekindle what they'd seen. But their brains are much better at observing. But threat, threat, threat, you're going to always notice. She's got way too much detail. She used when they were there, they would put me in the closet. She stammered a bit about that. That would be a pretty strong memory, and you'd see something interfaced about it. She's chaffing and redirecting and doing more details. What I think she's unaware of, like Mike Woolley could have said, hey, the Bigfoot had a camp, and they had a campfire, and they had a little cup, and they had because you're never going to find Bigfoot and prove it. But these guys are trying to build an image of a person. They're trying to. And Scott, I don't think they caught on the fact she was busting them because they went and drew at least 20 search warrants. They never executed them, but they actually drew 20 search warrants. So I think they did think two Hispanic women had kidnapped this woman. So somewhere along the line, they're building an image. They're not just building the image so they can, hey, that's cool little house you're building in your head. They're trying to build what house they're going in. And if they're going in to get somebody, how do I get in the door safely? So they will care. And all those details she's giving them will come back to haunt them. She might not think so, but there's a thing called a control question. And a control question is a question I know the answer to because you told me, or for some other reason, I'm going to come back up and ask you. When she gets the only real anger we see in the entire thing is when she talks about this pole. That's the other place we see residual anger, full blown teeth and all. This is a master manipulator. She knows what she's supposed to do. She talks about the bucket being in the closet. Then later, she never went in the closet. There's a whole bunch of crazy stuff going on there. And I think in the process, she's starting to have an epiphany right here at the end and realize something's going on because her hands come up like she's in helplessness with a blank lower face. And then she eye locks back over. And when she eye locks to the person, she brings her hands up and starts to adapt to her ears. Now, if you think about that when you're starting messing with your ears, we're going to get even more pronounced. We typically associate that with shock or terror or those kinds of things. Now, if she was an absolutist, she's not even a smart one of those because she would know that absolutists believe when you cover your ears, you're lying. So there you go. Here's another one she doesn't know. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, y'all hit a bunch here and I agree that detail on the chain is amazing. Great detail on the chain, still using the Amber Heard rapport building strategy here. And when she's drawing the stick figure, there's even more of this. And this is the moment you might expect to see a true victim. Maybe possibly make even a brief glance at her husband. That's not there. And there's so much repetition here that I no longer need to go through that all because you'll spot it. There's a detailed mountain about the closet doors, the window, the geography of the room. And then what details are there about the perpetrators, about the actions of the perpetrators? So then she says, when I was, I'm gonna give you exactly her linguistics here. I have it up on my screen. When I was, when they were, when I was, I wanna say when they were maybe, but more often than not, or if they maybe had to go outside to get something. I think those are just her pronouns. It could be. But everything else was communicated without all this loss of fluency. So it's a huge difference even in one clip of fluency and loss of fluency around the key points where she's really nervous. That's all I got. One of those tape replays. What's the comment about when you were on the cable? What do you mean? A minute ago, you said when I was on the cable, were you tethered to a cable? There was a chain around my waist. Okay. So the chain had... I'm sorry. Okay, sorry. The chain, the chain. So here's a jubilee. Here's a pretty stint maker. Let's draw the whole room, you wanna do that? Sure. We'll lay it all over you. I'm trying to think where to start with the direction. So here's the door. Here's the closet. The closet had two doors. Here's the hinge here. Here's the hinge here. They shut inward. Here's the doorknob here. There was like some kind of holders because they would lock it with some kind of thing to keep it shut when I was, when they were, I think, I wanna say when they were maybe changing the bedding or changing, but more often than not, or if they, or if they maybe had to go outside to get something I was in here because I could sometimes hear a door. They would put me in here. And then there was, I'm bad with dimensions. So let's just say, here's the closet and here's, we're going up this direction. Does that make sense towards this ceiling? There was a shelf and, okay. So I could, the shelf was maybe, I could touch it. I had this much leverage so I could touch it. So it was probably the shelf was maybe this tall because I could grab it, but I couldn't push it up. If I could push it up, if I was tall enough to push it out up, I would have been able to get out, but I wasn't tall enough to push it all the way up. So the shelf, I could grab like the ledge. You know, if I was on my tip, tip, tip toes, I could grip the ledge. And then there was this pole, this stupid pole that was attached here, came down like all the way up. Fuckin' pole is the only reason why I was there. The cable was here and it needed a turn. I'm sorry for swinging. And then the cable, I could reach all the way to the bed. Couldn't reach the door. Couldn't reach the window. Couldn't reach the bed. There was a, at all times, there was a bucket in the closet. That's what I used to go out the bathroom in. Was the room rectangular? That makes sense. So now I have, so now we're looking directly into the closet and there was nothing in the closet. Right? It was in the bucket. The bucket. What side of the, did it go in? I moved it around. Okay, we'll just put that here. Yeah, it was never, it never seemed like it was set in the same place. So if this was the thing that went into the, so the pipe or the whatever would it go in for? I don't know. The bar. The bar. Bar's in the middle. Where is it in relation to the shelf? In the center of the shelf. Does it go below the shelf or above the shelf? Below the shelf. How far? I hit my head on it a couple of times. Uh, maybe that far. So a foot down from here? I apologize, I'm really bad at like, foot inch, five miles, two yards. I'm really bad at that. I'm an ish guy. I like ish stuff. Yeah. We're about an ish down from here, about a foot. So from here, is there anything that goes on the base of this or is it just hanging in there? Yes. There was washers and, what are those bolts? Which I got out. Okay. Which I got off. So this whole thing goes up into the roof? Correct. The ceiling. Correct. Off to the front. Does it go through the shelf? Yes. Okay. So if this is the shelf. That's, if I could have gotten the shelf off, I could have gotten out because I could have pulled the cable just straight off of it. It was the shelf that I couldn't get off. Okay. And I couldn't break through the shelf either. I couldn't break through the shelf and I couldn't get the shelf off because that was in the middle of the shelf. If I could have just, so, so you pull, here's the shelf. If I could have just removed the shelf and I could have just went, see you later. So with, what was, do you know what, what you were affixed to? Was it a tether or was it like a rope? A metal cable. About how thick, do you know? It was thin. It was in the end, I was working on the end and I got the end frayed. So it was not very thick, but I mean I, I even tried chewing on it at one point. I popped a screw out of the electrical socket and tried scraping with a screw at one point. I mean, there was. Have you ever hung a picture, like a picture wire, like something like that? Thicker. Okay. Thank you. Hey, I don't know how to get shits and gills. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'll be pretty short on this one. There's no apprehension about her making this BS up as she goes. That's the interesting piece is we hear her stammer and stutter because she's looking for details, but we don't see escalation and breathing rate. And as a matter of fact, she's more open than normal. So I think, again, she's back to, I get to say whatever I want because nobody was there and she thinks they can't verify it. Okay, maybe not. She does that, here's my head thing where she puts her hands up on the sides of her face. And I think I see a, I'm no micro expression guy. I always tell you guys, I think I see a little terror in her face as she does that. I think she's starting to realize that she's getting herself in a bind by giving too much information. And then when he asked about if the poll went through the shelf, she goes, yes? Like, is that the right answer? Well, look, nobody you're interviewing about something horrific that just happened and should be asking you if they're giving you the answer you're looking for. She's starting to get uncomfortable. I think at the end, the reason we see that terror is because the level of detail he's starting to ask for is more than she's expected. I think she's gotten away with lying her whole life and she's doing that whole facial expression thing to get the way she wants. And I think that when she starts talking about trying to get out, the one time I tried to get out she's trying to chat and redirect and it doesn't work. But you see this day when she does that. And there's one thing you guys tell me what you think. I thought for a minute she showed disgust when she didn't have the right detail and then reaches up to touch her nose like, oh, I got something going on just to try to hide it. That was my opinion at least. Mark, what do you think? Yeah, I think when there's the rubbing of the eye action I see some disgust and two asymmetrical gestures. One on one side of the mouth and then one on the other. I can't think when I've last seen that and what that could be where you've got maybe disdain on one side and a juper's delight on the other. I don't quite know. Pretty quick, go back, take a look. I'm with you, Greg, that upward inflection around the offer that he gives. Was it up through the shelves? I mean, that's an offer. It's like, okay, how about this one? How about this one? And yeah, she goes, yes. And then gets eye contact and the eyebrows come up. So she really is looking for some kind of approval on what she should have an assertion around. Not an idea, an opportunity around. She plays for low status again. You know, I'm really bad at this. The questioner has a bit of a competition. Well, I'm a kind of an ish guy as well. I think that you try to build rapport around that and rapport around the low status. It's interesting, Greg, that you say, you know, they put some resource into this and I don't doubt you that they did. Because I'm seeing the guy, he does a lot of grooming around his ear around this and that for me could potentially signal he's not enjoying this. There's something up here that he doesn't quite buy it potentially. Now, maybe I'm projecting around that. Maybe he has an instinct for this. And yet, because look, it's the FBI, it's the Federal Bureau of Investigation. It's a bureaucracy and maybe there's, you know, if somebody says something, you have to enact certain things. If there's, you know, certain things mean you have to do something else. Maybe his instinct is telling him there's something not right, but maybe they have to put resource into this regardless of the instinct around it. You clearly got thought on that, Greg. Yeah, yeah, Mark, I think these guys are locals. I think the FBI got thought on much later. Okay, okay, fair enough, fair enough. Well, you know, as a local guy, I think he's got an instinct for this. There's something up around this. I don't think he's buying it. I wonder whether he put any resource into it or said, well, this is the FBI. Let them handle this one, you know, see what they make of it. Anyway, Scott, what have you got on this one? Yeah, I think the expressions you guys are seeing is micro expressions. She doesn't know what to think. She doesn't know how to look. She doesn't know what expressions she should be showing. So I think those are flying around her brain and she's just firing them off when she thinks I should look this way. I should look this way. She doesn't know how that looks, even though she watches, I'm sure, a lot of true crime stuff. She hasn't got the body language part figured out like she thinks she has it. Facial expressions anyway. So I think that's what the problem is there because there's so many of them just busting out and flying around on her face. And I think that's why. Let's get back to that bucket. So now the bucket, she's like, the bucket was always in one place or whatever. She wasn't sure exactly about the bucket where it was and stuff, but she thought it was always in the same place. She would know where the bucket is. They're not gonna come in there and get that bucket. Nobody's gonna come in there and make sure your bucket is okay. A kidnapper who has no emotional attachment to you whatsoever. And the reason you're there is just to make them money. If they did give you your own room, if they did give you your own bathroom like that, a bathroom closet like that, you're gonna know all about the bucket. There won't be any question where the bucket was. You'll know about that because you have to, I'm imagining you'd have to squat down on the bucket and you're gonna have to hang on to something. So she's gonna tell you what she hung on to, how she braced herself and the whole thing. She's gonna know exactly where it was. There'll be no question about that. That right there, again, is one of those things that goes, no, man, this didn't happen. This did not happen like this. And when she starts talking about trying to get that wire loose and getting the screw out of the light thing, she's trying to make herself look brilliant and look smart. I thought of all these things that are really smart to do, but then again, that's another reason why they wouldn't have let her have her own room because she might be able to get loose from the wire. So it's crazy talk. It's crazy talk. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, Greg, hiding that disgust facial expression. I remember doing that on camera while we were filming the Harry and Megan thing. I remember scratching my face to hide disgust facial expression. So I think maybe she's a kindred spirit in that regard. So she moved the bucket around, then she says, then it seemed like it was never set in the same place. If it was her moving it, I thought that was unusual. And when someone's describing a scene to an investigator so that the location can be found during the investigation, there's one thing you'll hear almost every time when they're trying to describe the scene so someone can locate the area or find out where it is, the person will go into present tense language. Ask a person, we're trying to locate what's going on. They're gonna say there's a bridge or there's a wall here and to the left of that wall there is, not there was, is. They'll use present tense because they're hoping the environment still exists. We're only hearing past tense here. This isn't the largest red flag or even the heaviest red flag to Mark's point, but I wanted you to know this from my experience and keep it in your toolkit for the future. It's still completely ignoring her husband. I'm thinking this is guilt and shame. And I don't know anything about the story, but I think that maybe something was going on outside of here and the husband's also displaying several behaviors just not in this clip, but in a lot of these that he might be a little suspicious and he knows her baseline better than us, better than the police, better than anybody who could interview her and there's a good chance he's seeing something off here that none of us are seeing. In reality, I'm willing to bet that he isn't consciously picking up on her baseline deviations, but he is subconsciously processing the weirdness of it. And he's getting a weird feeling that something is way off about this story because he's probably known her for longer than anybody else in that room. One of those tape replays. That makes sense. So now I have, so now we're looking directly into the closet and there was nothing in the closet, right? Other than the bucket. The bucket. Which side of the, is it the one? I moved it around. Okay, we'll just put that here. Yeah, it was never, it never seemed like it was set in the same place. So if this was the thing that went into the, so the pipe or the whatever we're going to call it. I don't know, the bar. The bar, where bars in the middle, where is it in relation to the shelf? In the center of the shelf. Does it go below the shelf or above the shelf? Below the shelf. How far? I hit my head on it a couple of times. So a foot down from here. I apologize, I'm really bad at like foot inch, five miles, two yards. I'm really bad at times. I'm an ish guy. I like ish. Yeah. We're about an ish down from here, about a foot. So from here, is there anything that goes on the base of this or is it just hanging there? Yes. What goes across? Washers and, what are those bolts? Which I got out. Okay. Which I got off. So this whole thing goes up into the roof? Correct. The ceiling. Correct. Often that's the one. Does it go through the shelf? Yes. So if this is the shelf. That's, if I could have gotten the shelf off, I could have gotten out because I could have pulled the cable just straight off of it. It was the shelf that I couldn't get off. Okay. So that's why I was- And I couldn't break through the shelf either. I couldn't break through the shelf and I couldn't get the shelf off because that was in the middle of the shelf. If I could have just, so, see the pole? Here's the shelf. If I could have just removed the shelf then I could have just went, see you later. So with, what was, do you know what you were fixed to? A tether? Was it like a rope? A metal cable. About how thick, do you know? It was thin. It was, the end, I was working on the end and I got the end frayed. So it was not very thick, but I mean, I even tried chewing on it at one point. I popped a screw out of the electrical socket and tried scraping with a screw at one point. I mean, there was- Have you ever hung a picture, like a picture wire, like something like that? Thicker. Okay, bye. Thank you. Are you okay? Yes. Do you remember when, when were you first attached to, when you first remember? What do you mean? Like how many hours, days, that? Was that something immediate that, Lee, that occurred or not? No, that didn't happen until I tried to get out. Like, I don't know. Like, you think I'm just gonna sit there? I mean, that didn't make any sense to me. Like all I had was zip ties, really. And you think I'm not gonna get out of a bolted door and a boarded window? So obviously, so the restraints progressed over time, correct? Yes. So the very first time you alluded to early, you didn't really say it. It looked like you had the zip ties were around both wrists. Correct. So one zip tie around both wrists, or was it? One. Okay, so one zip tie, that was your very first restraint? Correct. I hadn't had that chain was not on me yet. Was that bar there? Was it the bar there? When, was this already in the room that you remember? I don't know. I don't think the closet doors were even open. Did I open the closet doors? I don't remember, I don't remember seeing it. I mean, I'm sure it was there. It didn't seem like it was freshly put in. But I, the day that I tried to break out of the window, I mean, that wasn't something that I was really focused on so I couldn't say, I don't know. Did you get it? How much time do you think you've got? All right, Chase, what do you got? She's describing a movie here. And she's probably describing something she saw on TV somewhere. I'm not gonna pretend to know for sure, but this is what she's seen in movies somewhere. So she thinks it'll be more believable. She's stunningly accurate, trying to remember every detail down to the diameter of the wire and the closet doors being open or closed until it comes to the crime, the perpetrators, the abuse, the emotion, actions of the perpetrators. Her face is looking like it is in this clip to act like she's trying real hard to remember these details, but she's forgetting to move her eyes. She's forgetting to use a lot of her body and use her hands to tell a story like we've already seen she did with the AirPods and mostly forgetting how a victim might feel if they were ever kidnapped. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, just a couple of things because I'm with you, she would be illustrating the story, telling you details, showing grief at the right times. Let me show you where she does show grief. When she's giving you a detail like when I tried to escape, no grief, none, none. That's because that's a provocative statement, allowing her to redirect an iteratively storytell when you ask her the question. That exhale, in my opinion, is a catch up from exasperation. Watch your eyes go down into her right. We know that's her right because we can read what's on her shirt. So when we say it's down into her right, we're paying attention, something's emotional going on. This is where I think she's starting to get tired of making up details. Watch her breathing increase. We talk about sympathetic, parasympathetic nervous systems. When the sympathetic comes on, it's gonna ramp you up for fight or flight, give you all the stuff that we're talking about she should have experienced. So she's starting to go out of thinking brain and into feeling brain and trying to respond. And she's starting to do that. She does chase one of your things. I'm gonna give you the coin for closed eye talking with a request for approval at the same time, which is that smugness that she says it didn't happen until I tried to get out. That's a provocative statement. That's a provocative statement. This grief muscle, you only notice this grief muscle when she notices how complex the story is getting. The story is getting difficult because when she doesn't understand the question or when she suddenly realizes that the questions now are based on things she said before, now she's in a bind. Now we're getting to control questions. And I think she's smart enough to know it and we even see some mouth grooming at the end as she feels that heat. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, couldn't agree more. I think it's unraveling for her now. I think you're right, she is exhausted. So she is getting into that reptile brain. And I think what we're seeing now is anger. Certainly I see anger right at the start. And that's a big baseline change for her. We've not seen her get angry at the interview. We see it in her lower teeth as she leans forward. Her energy pops up as well. I think it's because she's getting exhausted. She's getting exhausted because it's not going her way. She's getting more questions, more questions. What she's hoping for is folders get closed and go, okay, well, clearly you were abducted by a couple of Mexican women and we're gonna just go and find them now and bring them to justice. Thank you very much. We won't contact you until we have them and we get to prosecute them and you can bear witness to their awfulness. That's what she's hoping for but they keep on going and they keep on going. She's getting tired. She's getting aggressive. There's concern in her forehead, I think around that. I see contempt as well. Side of the mouth goes up. I see lip grooming as well. It's now, I believe, gonna start going downhill for her. Let's see about that. Scott, what do you got? You guys have covered everything I was gonna talk about except for how big the grief muscle was. Looks like the sign for pie. It's huge. So yeah, so you guys literally covered everything. So instead of going over it and being boring, it was one of those tape replays. Are you okay? Yes. Do you remember when were you first attached to, when you first remembered? What do you mean? Like how many hours, days, that? Was that something immediate that occurred? No, that didn't happen until I tried to get out. Like I don't know, like why, you think I'm just gonna sit there? That didn't make any sense to me. Like all I had was zip ties really, and you think I'm not gonna get out of a bolted door and a boarded window? So obviously, the restraints progressed over time, correct? Yes. So the very first time you alluded to it really, you didn't really say it. It looked like you had the zip ties were around both wrists. Correct. So one zip tie around both wrists, or was it? One. Okay, so one zip tie, that was your very first restraint? Correct. I hadn't had that chain was not on me yet. Was that bar there? Was the bar there? Was this already in the room that you remember? I don't know. I don't think the closet doors were even open. Did I open the closet doors? I don't remember, I don't remember seeing it. I mean, I'm sure it was there. It didn't seem like it was freshly put in, but the day that I tried to break out of the window, I mean, that wasn't something that I was really focused on, so I couldn't say. I don't know. Did you give it? How much time do you think you've... For good. What's your question? Where would you like me to go in that direction? How did you hear it in the end, during this sort of deal? Like what led to it? I'm not sure. And I keep trying to think about that. I think, okay, the, I'm not sure what led up to it, but the cable that was, where the cable was attached at the top, anytime you made a movement or moved it, it made a really loud noise. So when I would make noise, they would rush in to the room. And that's generally where I try to remember that day, everything, like what specifically made that happen. I was trying to make the bed. I want to say I was smoothing out a blanket and it made that noise. Make the cable? Yes. Clank or whatever? I think that's why. I don't think there was anything else because there wasn't anything in the trash can. So it was, I don't feel like it was time for that maybe. I want to say it was just because there was a noise. The bigger one came in, I dropped to the floor. The bigger one came in. I had my hair pulled back already. I had already had my, I think it was my original hair tie. Like I don't feel like that was ever removed. Like I'm pretty sure I was wearing the same hair band. From running? Yeah. But I mean, I never actually like took it out and looked at it, but I don't recall that ever being removed. They said something in Spanish to each other. The other one was outside the room. I was hit here on the shoulder and then it was a yank backwards. It was a yank backwards. I feel like it happened really fast, but not. I don't know. That's fine. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is a long one for me because now we're going to get to see the husband starting to go, hmm, watch him. Look at, he's sitting over there and he's progressively less comfortable. He cranes his neck, crosses his body, drops his chin. Now she's on a topic that is going to cause her some grief because she's asked my favorite question in the entire world. Why? Why is a hard question? I can make up details all day, but if you ask me why this happened, why they cut my hair, I don't know. Look, I can make up something very quickly. Maybe they're using it as a ransom thing, but she doesn't. She hasn't considered it because you can tell because she goes to up talk. What do you mean? And then she's really good about talking about things that never happened, but she did cut her hair. Somebody clearly cut her hair. Now, we always say that part of the problem and why sympathetic and parasympathetic get a battle when you're lying is because you know the truth. Well, when you're making up, playing cloth, there's a big foot over there catching turkeys. That's easy because there's no conflict to it. But how my hair got cut off is a fact. And I'm telling you something when something else is a fact and I know it. So it's harder than making stuff up. She chaffs and redirects about the pole and they would run into the room. Now, remember my big foot supposition and listen to when she's talking about the big one and the little one as we go here and you'll really hear a big foot story. She goes back into that medium pose and then she's going and she raises her head again like I'm getting this happened. But when she's doing that, she makes really hard eye contact for approval. And when she doesn't get what she wants, she goes, well, maybe not. It was all, I'm getting it was all really fast or maybe not and she drops her head. That's interesting. Why would you do that? It either was really fast or it wasn't. And the medium should have told you that. Whatever spirits out there should have told you that. I'm telling you, this is big foot. This is Mike Woolley. She's surprised that anyway, I'll leave it that and just say, I'll keep going if you just from here, treat the captors like big foot, you'll get exactly why I'm so mused by this story. Chase, what do you got? Yep, I agree with you. It's a lot more of the same stuff that we've been seeing except for the husband. There's a huge detail spike on everything and there's a detail valley on the important parts that a true victim would be going crazy about. And the confirmation glances here to the interviewer are off the charts. There's repetition. Right at where she's talking about the hair, she says the bigger one and then the tie. And she's like, I feel like it happened fast, but not. She's quoting stuff she's heard from movies and TV shows. It's probably the true crime show she's already told us that she watches all the time. But I want you to listen for if they're asking about the motive for them cutting her hair, when you see, and just write this one down if you're taking notes, when you see the desire to answer questions and it's an unknown, that's probably a guilty person because a person who doesn't know will just say, I have no idea. I don't know why they did that. I'm not a psychic. So maybe they'll try to throw a couple of things in there, but they won't go over the top trying to figure out the internal mindset of other people to provide answers. That's all I got. Scott? I think she is a psychic though. She must be. I agree with you, Chase. There's not a whole lot that I can add here because we're seeing pretty much the same stuff. Greg's broken down what always happened, question-wise and all that. Why would they want to cut her hair? Like I said before, this is all crazy talk. For me, this was over at video one. And it's not just taking these guys a while. I do think they know what's up. I think they know what's over. And then now they're getting in those details because she's just so tired of creating details. Even though this is like, what would you say? Greg, two, three days later probably? Yeah, it's days, I think, yeah. Yeah, she's still, she's burnt. She can't, I think she's used up every bit of creativity she possibly had to create this story. I think she's used it up and it's gone because right now everything, the whole thing, like Mark was saying earlier, just starts digressing. It's getting worse and worse. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I think you're right. In my mind, she's becoming evasive now because she knows she's really on the back foot there. She's got any time you would, when I would make noise, I wanna say, I never actually, I don't recall, and then it was yanked backwards. I feel like it happened. There's just evasive, she's just maneuvering around stuff. Look, as a bit of advice, if you wanna become a sporting liar, if you wanna do it for fun, and why shouldn't you? It's great fun, great fun. If you wanna do it for fun, do as Greg's kind of helping you there and like pick Bigfoot, pick Aliens, pick Ghosts, stuff like that. I mean, I'm sure you're all gonna send me and send us the evidence right now, but the reason you pick those is there isn't any evidence. If you pick a Bigfoot story and you go and they were sitting around tree stumps with little wooden cups and they got berry juice in there and they mashed it up in their mouth and then they put it in leaves and they drip it into the little baby's mouth. It's like, you can't contest that with me because you've never seen a Bigfoot, okay? Why have you never seen one? Well, you know, I'll let you decide why you and I have never seen a Bigfoot, okay? But here's the thing, when it comes to being abducted and kidnapped, we have evidence of lots of that. We've talked to people who've done that, who actually do it. They did it many, many times. So they'll go, hey, here's how we go about it. And here's why we go about it in this manner. We've talked to people who've really had it done to them and seen what it's like for somebody to recount that. And there are some similarities. Yes, everybody is different, of course, but there are some basic human similarities about going through those kind of traumas. And so don't pick those stories because it's so much easier to find you out, go for Bigfoot, aliens, ghosts, that kind of thing. Fantastic, great stories. I mean, keep those coming. They're lovely. One of those tape replays. Good. What's your question? Where would you like me to go in that direction? How did you hear him doing this sort of deal? Like what led to it? I'm not sure. And I keep trying to think about that. I think, okay, the... I'm not sure what led up to it, but the cable that was where the cable was attached at the top, anytime you made a movement or moved it, it made a really loud noise. So when I would make noise, they would rush in to the room. And that's generally where I'm trying to remember that day, everything, like what specifically made that happen. I was trying to make the bed. I want to say I was smoothing out a blanket and it made that noise. Made the cable? Yes. Clank or whatever. I think that's why. I don't think there was anything else because the cable was attached to it. Because there wasn't anything in the trash can. So I don't feel like it was time for that maybe. I want to say it was just because there was a noise. The bigger one came in, I dropped to the floor. The bigger one came in, had my hair pulled back already. I had already had my, I think it was my original hair tie. Like I don't feel like that was ever removed. I'm pretty sure I was wearing the same hair band. From, that you put on when you went running? Yeah, but I mean, I never actually like took it out and looked at it, but I don't recall that ever being removed. They said something in Spanish to each other. The other one was outside the room. I was hit here on the shoulder and then it was a yank backwards. It was a yank backwards. I feel like it happened really fast, not. I don't know, that's. That's fine. Were there any times you said the majority of the times when either of the females would come in? There was usually both of them were there. Were there any other, any times where it was just one of them? No, every, well, that's hard to say because I would be on all fours with my head down. That's hard to say, but well, they would talk to each other. So I knew the other one was close by. Ask me your question again. Are there times where you believe that only one of the females was inside the room at times as opposed to them both? Inside the room, yes. But the other, there would always be one nearby, but inside the room one at a time, yes. Did either, so let's say during their hitting or being violent towards you, was there any time that one of the females would try to stop the other one? Yes. Can you describe some of those moments? The younger one, I feel like, I could, because I couldn't understand her, but I feel like her body language was the pointy or this, this is a body language-wise. It doesn't matter what language you speak. I mean, because I was never allowed to look them in the face, but I did see this signal with her hand facing that way, which is stop, obviously. But, sorry, this is, that the little one, the bigger one was very forceful and it just, to me, the little one would defend herself and do what was asked, maybe? Again, I don't speak Spanish, but I feel like the bigger one enjoyed it and the little one did not. Does that make any sense? Absolutely. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I mean, just as, it's all about the partner now. It's all about the husband for me. He's checked out. I mean, looks checked out to me. His eyes are off in a trance state somewhere else. He looks very, very protected. Yeah, I understand that his foot is facing towards her, but that's also protecting primary sexual characteristics. His head is going in another direction. His torso is in a different direction. There's concern in his forehead, but the concern is not targeted to her and she's telling, at this point, a victim story. And so, if my partner, if Tracy, my wife was telling a victim story, even whether it was a story, even if I thought, oh, you know, some elements of that maybe, you know, a little bit expanded, say, because even somebody who's been victimized will do stuff of expanding story. You know, they're not gonna outright lie about it, but it may not be exactly as it is. The feelings will expand certain ideas, but the kernel of truth will always be there and a partner will pick up on that kernel of truth. So, yeah, I would have concern and it would be in towards rather than away with the other spirits that may well be in the room at the moment, maybe the spirit of being somewhere else, the spirit of not being married to her anymore, may well have come over him. The spirit of what the hell am I going to do about this? May well be upon him. You know, he is not looking with concern at the potential victim here, and he should be, why isn't he? Because I think he's sussed that she is not a victim in this particular case. Chase, what do you got on this one? More of the same, and we have the stop gesture education thing here that, which is true sometimes in some cases, in some circumstances, you know, your hands go all the way out. I've seen this even with someone's hands down at their sides, will extend like this. Like I analyzed a video for the Houston Police Department once, they were from an ATM or some store that was black and white with no sound and the person's hand was flexed out like this, talking to a person, so they're trying to get them to stop doing something. And then they were like, stop doing what? And I said, I have no idea. Adam, we don't work like that. That's maybe they need to talk to this young lady. Greg. Yeah, this young lady is an expert in all things body language. She just didn't know that's called a regulator. How do we control conversation? How do we control things? Maybe she could have told him, you're right. And Mark, I won't cover anymore about the husband because he's just in full blown shutdowns where I'll leave that at. He's locking everything out, but it'll get better with him. Hang in there for the final video because I'm telling you, it's one of the best we've seen in a while. But she starts to explain away in one of the questions when they're asking her about where they're both in the room at the same time. She starts to explain it away and then logic tests her own question. I love that. I've never heard anybody do that. Well, they must have been close by if I could hear them. Could you ask that question again? Like, really? You're really that, that dizzy, stupid or word that I could think of. But she does sacred space. Something I call sacred space where she's all balled up and she's adapting with those fingers. And then she parses a question to where she can remember what she said is what I think she's doing here. I think she's got a memorization device going to help her later recall when she keeps narrowing the question down because that steps. And if you're a kinesthetic learner, things you do in steps stick with you. And she has said, I felt, I feel a few times. So maybe that's it. Anyway, and then she finally does this last thing where she says, does that make sense? And we see that same eye lock for approval. She gets it this time. So she doesn't adjust and say, well, I guess not. Scott, what do you got? All right. Yeah, I think, I think what's happening there is when you're seeing her ask where she talks about here and two of them, she's de-conflicting as she's talking. She's, in other words, she's de-conflicting her. When you, when you lie, you have to have a trigger to make you lie and then you lie. But before you lie, you have to de-conflicting your lie to make sure everything's cool before you deliver it. She's delivering and then de-conflicting out loud. Making sure, well, I guess I couldn't. If I didn't do this. For me, that's one of the hallmarks. You see, if somebody's just lying to you, it's, it's, it's hilarious on a really, well, it would be a high level, it would be a low level hilarious because it's, it's so obvious to me, you know, for anybody watching that. So when you hear somebody doing that, ask them some more questions around whatever it is you're talking about at that point. I don't have a whole lot for me to add the dad or the dad, the husband, he's a dad too, you know. It's a great example of somebody who is, who is, who's burying and, and turned off. He's sitting back, his leg is crossed and we see her doing the maximum amount, maximum you could do with that. And he's doing almost the minimal of that, you know, his legs, his leg is just crossed and his arms are kind of relaxed like this. So it's a great example of seeing someone who was really burying and tightened up and closed off compared to somebody who was just, you know, I think he's been there so long. I think he's just about over it. That's why it's kind of relaxed with it all. I think he's making his mind about what he's going to do or what he actually thinks. So it's kind of, it's going to be a rough time for this guy, man, as we'll see in a little while. Okay. I don't even know when to mark. Mark's got the thing going. Brilliant. All right. One of those tape replays. Were there any times you said the majority of the times when either of the females would come in, there was usually both of them were there. Were there any other, any times where it was just one of them? No, every, well, that's hard to say because I would be on all fours with my head down. Yeah, that's hard to say, but, well, they would talk to each other. So I knew the other one was close by. Ask me your question again. Are there times where you believe that only one of the females was inside the room at times as opposed to them both? Inside the room, yes. But the other, there would always be one nearby. But inside the room, one at a time, yes. Did either, let's say during their hitting or being violent towards you, was there any time that one of the females would try to stop the other one? Yes. Can you describe some of those moments? The younger one. I feel like, because I couldn't understand her, but I feel like her body language was appointing and very, or this, this is a body language wise. Doesn't matter what language you speak. I mean, you know, she had, I've seen, because I can't, I didn't, I was never allowed to look them in the face, but I did see this signal with her hand facing that way, which is stop, obviously. But, sorry, this is, that the little one, the bigger one was very forceful. And it's, it just, to me, the little one would defend herself and do what was asked, maybe. Again, I don't speak Spanish, but, but I feel like the bigger one enjoyed it and the little one did not. Does that make any sense? Absolutely. Oh, yeah. Let me talk about the burn mark on your arm. Is there any, besides the one on the back, that we'll have to talk about eventually, but is there any other, because it looks like your legs, do you know how you receive most of those injuries on your legs? No, but even originally before then, I bruised really easily. So it could, I mean, it could have even been something that I possibly could have done, but no, because it was a lot of, I think this one I feel like was this or it was a lot of blocking or kicking or, I don't, she had, the bigger one would hold something. I just, I'm trying to remember feeling it was a lot of hitting with something, not punching or shoving. I didn't like being in the closet. It was a lot of shoving around the closet area. Do you remember specifically being kicked? I'm sorry, the fire popped it. Kicked, yes. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I love the way she's hitting some of those, hitting and punching and shoving. I mean, she's avoiding any real detail around the idea of the violence that's gone on there. My guess is there isn't any strong evidence there, although she had that thing across her nose and apparently there's a bit of a story behind that somewhere. But my guess is there isn't the grand evidence that you might expect with such a lot of hitting and punching and shoving. But she then does go into, I didn't like being in the closet as if we'd then go, oh, really, what, you were in the closet? Oh, no, gosh, nobody likes being in the closet. I mean, like, nobody likes being in the, Greg, did you like being in the closet? No, no, no, like, I mean, that's an obvious one. We don't want to be in the closet. That's a given, nobody wants to be in the closet. So why does she go for that? Well, she's distancing herself really from everything. And my mind, mainly in this one, goes to that design choice of having a large tree in the background there. And it makes me think that the big foot story would be much better to go for there because you could go with, you know, the big foot was just by our large tree over there. There it was. It was about half as tall as our large house tree that we have, absolutely bizarre. Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I think they might have borrowed a few decorators from Cracker Barrel. But here's what would happen if any of this BS was true. The victim would start off by saying what they knew for sure. This would be the single thing that was the most painful, the most traumatic. This would not be some forgotten, hard to remember, foggy memory that she has trouble pulling up from some unknown depth. The known memories would come out. And even if she had severe mental issues and maybe some brain damage, there would be emotions associated with this recall. With no body language at all. Here's what's in this clip when she's asked about her injuries. Could have been something that I could have possibly done. A lot of blocking or kicking, the bigger one would hold something and then nothing follows that. Just the bigger one would hold something. And then I try to remember feeling there's a lot of hitting with something. I don't like being in the closet. And the interviewer, do you remember being kicked? She goes, yes. Which was just awesome. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I guess she looks like, again, she looks like she's channeling, getting this information everywhere. And Mark threes and she won't be in the closet because it didn't smell good in there. That's where the bucket is. Yeah, exactly. She doesn't get specific on anything, except when they ask about the kick. She doesn't get specific for anything. Everything's really loose. And she's still in that lockdown position. The husband comes wheeling in and he's looking at it like, what? I think it's dawn, dawn that something's up. And I think it's probably up, but bless his heart. I think he probably feels bad about it. He's beginning to be torn between, this is the person I love and they may not be telling the truth or are they telling the truth? I've got to be loyal and all that stuff. But I think he's really concerned. I mean, look at his face. Look how far pushed back on that chair he is. He's starting to get a little bit worried. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, if you got kids or you ever were a kid, one thing that will happen, little kid gets in a fight, little kid gets bitten. What do they come in and say? There was biting, there was hitting. No, they say, he hit me, she bit me. We all do that. There's not hitting. This woman is down to passive phrases, which tells us two things. Number one, it didn't happen because when they are using passive phrases, I got branded. No, that's not a passive thing. She did get branded because she had somebody do it to her. She's brandish, she got a broken nose, she got some bruises. Somebody did that. And if it's the person that you're accusing, you would call them out. That's what humans do. Little children do it all the way up unless she's some special kind of human. Maybe she's a medium or something. She's got a different way of being. We don't know. But whoever beat my ass, I'm gonna remember and I'm gonna call it out. I'm not gonna say I bruise easily. So maybe the hits weren't so bad. I would probably mention the brand. It's just all off. Now I'll also say, she says punching and shoving, a lot of hitting with something. The questioning sucks. If you ask a question, how'd you get those bruises? And then they say I bruise easily. Well, hold on, because when she says I bruise easily, she said I could have possibly done it. She does that hard eye contact thing again. And a slow progression asking for approval. So here we know that she's done this many times if he had picked up on it, he could have gotten her. Let's just leave it at that. That's plenty. I mean, come on, Bigfoot hit me with a stick or with a baby bottle, whatever it was. But somewhere, somebody hit you with something. I'm surprised she didn't say, and there was skin on a back and branding was happening in relation to that skin. Well, no, that's too long because she's lost fluency because her brain is on the fucking, on the highway. She's doing like a squirrel on the road. So she was only using phrases, branding, skin. Tuesday. One of those tape replays. Let me talk about the burn mark on your arm. Is there any, besides the one on the back that we'll have to talk about eventually, but is there any other, because it looks like your legs, do you know how you receive most of those injuries on your legs? No, but even originally before then, I bruised really easily. So it could, I mean, it could have even been something that I possibly could have done. But no, because it was a lot of, this one I feel like was this or it was a lot of blocking or kicking or, I don't, the bigger one would hold something. I just, I'm trying to remember feeling, it was a lot of hitting with something, not punching or shoving. I didn't like being in the closet. It was a lot of shoving around the closet area. Do you remember specifically being kicked? I'm sorry, the fire popped it. Kicked, yes. I don't remember if we did or didn't talk about yesterday about your nose and how that occurred. I was woken up by it. And I can't remember if it was like this or if it was like that, but I was woken up by it. So you were sleeping? Correct, on the bed. Was there anything, what happened right after that? I was woken up, I was told to change. And you were woken up with the pipe, I'm assuming. Yeah, I mean whatever. I was told to change, there was already clothing on the bed. Felt so dizzy, my ears were ringing. When I tried to put the sweatpants on, I fell over. Did you, were you exchanging clothes at that time? Or were you getting completely dressed? Yes, I had clothes on already and put on the clothes that were on the bed. Is that your question? Yes. Yes. I'm just trying to help focus and not try to dwell on all the, if that helps or not. I'm obviously, I'm assuming it was bleeding. How did you clean that up? It was already on the other, this and it was on the other clothes. I did one of these numbers. I didn't believe very much. Didn't believe, yeah, it really didn't believe very much. It wasn't like gushing blood. Did any of that end up on the walls or on the floor? I would assume so. I mean, there wasn't anything that I know of on the walls, but gosh, I don't know. Well, okay, I did that. Ouch, that's sore. Sorry. No, that's okay. It had to have been on the floor because I set the sweater down. So to answer your question, yes, it has to be on the floor. It wasn't profusively bleeding. So I wouldn't say that it was dripping onto the floor. It was, I was focused more on my eyes because I couldn't see. Yeah, it really didn't bleed that much. All right, Greg, what do you got? Okay, again, we're past the voice. I was woken up by it. Not somebody woke me, not this, they hit me in the face with a stick and did this. She doesn't tell you exactly, but she does tell you because what we learned later is that she held a stick in front of her face and her ex-boyfriend punched the stick and that's how she broke her nose. She just telegraphed that. I don't know if it was hit this way or that way. Little bit of both, really interesting. It's funny because she's got the most emphatic illustrator yet because this actually happened. We know she broke her nose. She's got eye lock, that eye lock again at confirmation at correct on the bed. These are weak questions. If I were asking, I'd say, how'd your nose get broke? Or tell me about your nose. Not something that's so close in that it doesn't force her to talk. This is passive voice. Scott, what do you got? All right, yeah, I didn't, dang it. Well, I missed that about the, that's a good call on the hitting the nose thing, man. I totally missed that. She continues her burying and locking down, but now they've got new clothes for her or her clean clothes and they've laid them out on the bed for her. That's part of that five star treatment she get there in California when you get trafficked or kidnapped apparently in her town. And then the answer shouldn't take that long. The answer took way too long to give because again, she's thinking about all these things. I think her creativity is running dry at this point. I thought it was dry before, but now she's got a little bit of something in there and she's letting a little bit out since she gets a little bit forward with it, but not much. I think she just thought she could keep lying and making stuff up. This is the reason when people say, well, since you know how to do this, could you ever be interrogated? How, what happens if an interrogator? Because you always get that question in training. What if someone interrogates an interrogator? Well, even the one being interrogated knows that it's gonna go on a long time and you cannot keep it up. And we're seeing a lame example of, it's a great example of somebody who couldn't do it anyway, who's not trying or they're trying hard, but they're not trying professionally to be, to be, to keep going and lying. So you're seeing what would happen to an interrogator. Eventually they would, they would break down and things wouldn't get this bad or this slow, but everything would be changing. That, that's what, that's what I think it's all I can say about that. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you guys. Nose and facial injuries are far more likely to be remembered. There's a lot of neuroscience to support this, but you'll have to take my word as I can't go 45 minutes into that. So forgive me. She has hesitancy about an injury. She's wearing a bandage for, and then with the passive voice, this is, I was woken up by it, with a passive voice there, like Greg said, and there's also severity softening and vanishing perpetrator. And she continues to refer to the assault as it. So she goes into the detail of how the thing happened and is missing these critical elements. And then this, I think you guys might agree, we could do a four hour video just on this one clip. It's got so much packed into it. The guy said, I think the interviewer says you were woken up by a pipe. And she realizes that she forgot the pipe woke her up in her story and says, I was woken up and told to change. The detective has to remind her and does this weird confirmation of it. And when she's talking about the blood, she's being honest, I think. Like Greg was saying, this is a memory that's interwoven from somewhere else. She slips into her memory of maybe inflicting this on herself or the actual wound of when it happened and maybe remembering that it didn't bleed much because you could see actual surprise on the face when she said it didn't bleed very much. I think that's real. So I also wanna know, how do you change your shirt with zip ties on? I've been zipped side quite a bit. I think Greg probably has to. I've never had one of my guys, that means somebody's technique sucks is what that tells you. Yeah. So think about the difference when someone is hit by someone else, when they say, I was focused more on my eyes and I couldn't see. If you are blinded by tears or something, you're not gonna say, I was really focused on my eyes. You're gonna say, I couldn't see my eyes for watery. One is storytelling and one is recalling an experience. I could go, there's so much. I'm just gonna pass it on. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so as you go back and rewatch this video, watch the replay, like me, just focus on the partner, the husband. Is there, can you see anything there of concern or empathy for this potential victim? I think you're gonna see absolutely nothing. In fact, in my mind, the little story I have is that he's looking out there and he's just like checking the bus timetable for how quickly he could get out of there, maybe get a bus to Monterey, maybe one onto, I don't know, Hollywood somewhere, be in a bar, an upstairs bar, having a martini, having withdrawn all the money and just rid of this absolute nonsense that's going on. In my mind, he is just fantasizing about how he cuts out of this as fast as he possibly can. It sees, he's dreaming of his new future. One of those tape replays. I don't remember if we did or didn't talk about history about your nose and how that occurred. I was woken up by it and I can't remember if it was like this or if it was like that, but I was woken up by it. So you were sleeping? Correct, on the bed. Was there anything, what happened right after that? I was woken up, I was told to change. And you were woken up with the pipe on the ceiling? Yeah, I mean, whatever. I was told to change. There was already clothing on the bed. I felt so dizzy. My ears were ringing. When I tried to put the sweatpants on, I fell over. Did you, were you exchanging clothes at that time? Or were you getting completely dry? Yes, I had clothes on already and put on the clothes that were on the bed. Is that your question? Yes. Yes. I was trying to help focus and not try to dwell on all the, if that helps or not. I'm obviously I'm assuming it was, it was bleeding. How did you clean that up? It was already on the other, this, and it was on the other clothes. I did one of these numbers. I didn't bleed very much. Didn't bleed, yeah, it really didn't bleed very much. It wasn't like gushing blood. Did any of that end up on the walls or on the floor? I would assume so. I mean, there wasn't anything that I know of on the walls, but gosh, I don't know. Well, okay, did that, ouch, that's fine. Sorry. No, that's okay. It had to have been on the floor because I set the sweater down. So to answer your question, yes, it has to be on the floor. It wasn't profusely bleeding. So I wasn't, I wouldn't say that it was dripping onto the floor. It was, I was focused more on my eyes because I couldn't see. Yeah, it really didn't bleed that much. Why are you saying that's not, what's up? We were friends, there's no way. And he came and got you because you asked him? No. When was the last time you had contact with James? Brother died in 2017? Was it before or after the abduction? When was the last time you saw him? Ago, when I lived in Southern California. So the last person-to-person contact you had with him was back in 2006? When you were living in Southern California? I don't know. Was it prior to your marriage? It's him, there is no way, it's him. Oh, it is James. The DNA tells us that it was, it's DNA on him. The DNA alone says it's him. And when we talked to him in front of him with the DNA- He tells us what happened? He 100% told us what happened. And gave us details that nobody else would know. And we can call him and we can all talk about it. But ultimately, can you look at me for a second? Ultimately, we put him on a polygraph like we did Keith. Keith was inconclusive, to be honest with you. Whether he was involved or not. But 100% James was telling the truth. The questions were, did Sherry ask you to come pick her up? The answer he asked. That was a truth on a polygraph. We asked him, the two of you ever had sex? The answer was no. During 2016? During 2016, during the abduction. He said no, that was a truth. We asked him if you asked him to brand you, the answer was yes. And he passed the polygraph on all of those questions. He took us to the stores where he bought the chain. He taught, we talked to the friend who ran the car. The car that he ran and drove over 900 miles in a day on the drop off point. Sherry, I know there's a lot to take in. But it's not like we don't know the answers to these questions. And the fear of Keith's reaction, obviously now he's in the room. The fear of media, the fear of all of these things are coming forward, they're in front of you now. All right, Greg, what do you got? This is a great one. The first thing I want you to hear is her say words we have never heard before. What are those words? I don't know. We haven't heard that yet. That's an interesting one. And by the way, they just found Bigfoot and they're questioning Bigfoot and using the evidence against her. So that's the good news. What they're saying is your ex-boyfriend told us you called him to get you. He came, picked you up in an SUV, you got in the back seat, went to his house and they go on it and give more details. Now, her husband, interestingly, here's a piece you guys can't see, a data point, because in the lead up to this, they asked, do you want your husband to leave? And she said, no, ding, ding, ding, guess what? He gets to hear everything that they say. So here we go. She goes into that trancer and pretends like she doesn't understand what they're talking about. She's off-setting entirely and just creating a whole new reality. They couldn't be him, it couldn't be him. That's not what they're saying, knucklehead. And she knows that. She goes into trancers so she can hide. When they asked the question, and this is a great question by an investigator, when was the last time you saw him? Watch that husband's back get rigid and him move quickly from steepling his hands to folded and crane his neck at like, okay, I thought something was up. And she says 2017, which was after the abduction. I don't know, again. Now the husband's legs start whittling around. He's got nervous energy. Chase, if you talked about a four hour video on body language, we could use, we could all teach a course off this guy's body language of discomfort when this thing starts to go to hell. She tries to go back and pretending like she's misunderstanding. And then she gets emphatic again, like she did with the nosebring. No way it's him. Like they're just gonna forget their logic and follow her logic. We can make a laundry list of things that we see here and then the law enforcement guys go into a futility loop which is how you start to get a confession and how you close all this. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so same thing as you really there. Greg, is that the biggest change for me and as Chase has been saying, we're looking for changes and those changes could be about truth or lie or some gradation of fiction. But it's the biggest change for me is when's the last time you saw James? I don't know. And the tone and volume changes completely. Now, she's making herself unavailable to the questioning and the story with this crying that's going on, the sobbing. The sobbing, continual sobbing means it's very difficult for sound to get through. She can miss here. She cannot answer. But at this point, she answers clearly but very low volume. I think it's a case of fading facts there, Scott. But very, very clear change there. Some things up and even the way she answers, I don't know, when's the last time you saw him? I don't know. Well, so you probably saw him. You've seen him at some point. There's definitely the relationship is still going on there somewhere. Scott, what do you got on this one? Yeah, she's a trancing, Mark. That's what we call a trancing where she gets into trance. So it's like, ah, so you can't talk. You can't communicate with her. At the same time, that's an insulation move. She's insulating herself from everyone so they can't get to her. And so this whining, it sounds like bus breaks. It's just, eh, eh, eh. That's how you do it. And so when you see people start that and you can't talk to them and you're in an argument or something like that, that's what they're doing. They're trying to make it so you can't talk to them. It's so bad. They can't stand it and all that. So you can't get a hold of them. You can't talk to them. And they're thinking the whole time about what they're getting ready to say. Or they may just be retreating, which is what she's doing because she's afraid that she knows it's up. She knows it's over at this point. So she doesn't know what to do. I think she's trying to decide whether or not to start saying that this guy is the one that kidnapped me, you know. She's trying to, I think she's trying to decide whether to go down that road or not, but I didn't want to get into trouble because I was in love with him or something. Who knows? And then, but he starts blocking with a hand that arm goes up and that hand starts blocking. And he's, and he's, as this dawns on him that this whole thing has just been false. Then I think we see him just bless his heart. We just see him, you know, turn into a, turn to stone, as I guess you'd say. But I think the interrogator's doing a good job because this could have gotten violent quick. This guy could have lost his mind when he heard this stuff and jumped up, tried to kill her or something. And they, but so they kept it calm. They kept talking calm and going back. Even though they're talking about heavy stuff, they kept it calm. I think they had a great job doing that. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, definitely a great job with the calmness and composure there in the interrogation room. And face hiding is very common in people who are severely emotional in interrogations and in everyday life. This is a behavior you see in people that are genuinely emotional, except she's not. She's at least smart enough to know this, but forgets about the emotional part. And it's not common in people who are innocent and being confronted. Face covering is the opposite of what you see when you confront an innocent person. So right here, it's just hiding her face, like just behind a mask. This is her only escape and she's using it pretending to feel something other than panic. That's all I'll say. And I think I was last. Yeah, okay. Oh, I won't give that to Mark's for branding purposes. Oh, okay. One of those tape replays. Marty, Shane, it's not. What's up? We were friends. There's no way. And he came and got you because you asked him? No. When was the last time you had contact with Chase? Brother died in 2017? That right? I remember. Was it before or after the abduction? It was the last time we saw each other. Ever ago when I lived in Southern California? So the last person-to-person contact you had with him was back in 2006? When you were living in Southern California? I don't know. Was it prior to your marriage? It's him. There is no way it's him. Well, it is true. The DNA tells us that it was. It's DNA on you. The DNA alone says it's him. And when we talked to him and confronted him with the DNA- He tells us what happened. He 100% told us what happened. He gave us details that nobody else would know. And we can call him and we can all talk about it, but ultimately, can you look at me for a second? Ultimately, we put him on a polygraph like we did Keith. Keith was inconclusive, to be honest with you, on whether he was involved or not, but 100% James was telling the truth. The questions were, did Sherry ask you to come pick her up? He answered yes. That was the truth on a polygraph. We asked him, either two of you ever had sex? The answer was no. During 2016? During 2016, during the abduction. He said no, that was the truth. We asked him, if you asked him to brand you, the answer was yes. And he passed the polygraph on all of those questions. He took us to the stores where he bought the chain. He taught, we talked to the friend who ran the car. The car that he ran and drove over 900 miles in a day, on the drop off point. Sherry, I know there's a lot to take in, but it's not like we don't know the answers to these questions. And the fear of Keith's reaction, obviously now he's in the room, the fear of media, the fear of all of these things are coming forward, they're in front of you now. And people off the property. Robert told me all of that. James told me everything. To the only person that hasn't started telling us certain facts. There are certain facts that are true. When we were sitting there talking to James, there were so many truths that were a part of your story that it's hard to decipher the lies until we put it all together. Until he says, hey, why, how did you pick her up? I opened up the passenger side seat, I opened the door, you jumped in the back seat. Why'd you do that? Why'd you do that? I don't know. It was weird. So are you calling James a liar? Are we not believing James what he told me? I know your story. He did not believe that it is James. I can't believe James told us the truth. That's what I can't believe. He passed a polygraph shared. So did Keith. No, he didn't, he was a conclusive. And he was involved. So James is involved, so James is involved, but I don't. James picked you up. You called James to pick you up. You mailed him a letter with your address. You used a burner phone to call another burner phone for James to come and get you. You're saying since you're married, you haven't called James? Because earlier you said you haven't contacted James. Does phone records show that you did? You did. The phones don't lie, the DNA doesn't lie, Sherry. His polygraph doesn't lie. So you can go a couple different directions now. His story. I've already told you lying to me is a crime. So you walk out the store with telling lies, and that's a crime. I think we need, this isn't making any sense. Let's not make any sense, Sherry. The parts that don't make sense. That it's James. No, the parts that don't make sense are that you're accusing two females who abducted you when it was James. The part that you were branded, James did it. He told me he didn't. Who would sit there and say, I branded Sherry on her right shoulder's leg. Who does it? And told us how and showed us the letters that matched the brand. Took us to the store and pointed out the letters. The problem is today, today is the case as a result. Everything, the only things, well, how do we prove that you're telling us the truth? How do we prove that the truth is that two women took you, but I'm telling you it's a male. The fact that you were branded is true. The small fact is that you willingly laid down, did it versus being tied to a table. So we can always, we could do the polygraph and try to, whatever parts of your confused about. Can you go and tell us that? Can't talk to you? Outside? No, quick? Yeah, I'm here. Wait? That's fine. The fears of how out of control everything got. The fear of all these. All right, Chase, what do you got? Won't call James a liar? That's massive. That's a big deal. Husband wants to get out of there, but she's forgetting to make denials. It's an important part of denying stuff, a very important part. This is where these guys have done a great job. This is where interrogation methods would have helped a lot. Less people in the room, no desk, the use of a strong monologue, asking alternative questions that offer the suspect a pathway to a lesser evil. And an example of a monologue for this situation might sound something really simple. You might say something like, Sherry, I know you're a good person because you raise good children and everybody who knows you thinks you're an amazing human being. And sometimes these things change in our lives that cause a good person to make a mistake or do something that's out of character for them. And when life situations pile up, out of control and mental stress makes you pretty much lose your mind and sense of who you are. Anyone can totally break. And I think that's what caused you to act out a character. I know firsthand that these things do happen and I see it all the time. Things like this are not a big deal and I see them a lot. People move past them. And if life hadn't become this big mountain of insane stress and all this piled up like it did, I don't think you would have made this unusual choice. And I think it was a horrible mix up that I see all the time with good people. And it was a split second mistake and you're being too hard on yourself and you can't allow this mistake to define your life. And I think this was just a lapse in judgment, Sherry, and that's all. And there's people that think you were planning on murdering Keith. Were you planning on committing murder? I do think you're a good person who's not a murder but who just made a mistake and you didn't wanna kill anyone, I don't think. This might have even started out as a joke. The only promise I need you to make to me here is that you understand that this is something that you won't do again and that you acknowledge to me that you had no intention to kill anybody. That might be a good one. There's 39 mistakes. I'd say, I did it, I did it. I did it, Chase, it was me, it was me. There's, I teach 39 mistakes you make in an interrogation room that causes somebody not to confess permanently. 13 of them were done in this video but they still did a pretty good job compared to most that I see. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I don't even think you need to go that far with the speech. I think she's doing it to herself. I think it's over already. I think at that point, I think she's done. I see what you're saying. She, they could have done that earlier but at this point, no need. She's just whining and crying, getting ready to, it's getting ready to happen right then. We're seeing it happen. She's just breaking down and her husband blesses hard. Her husband's kicking on that desk so hard. Looks like he's trying to start it as like it's going over there. And then as they go along, watch her foot. It starts pointing toward her husband and then watch his foot. It starts pointing toward the door hard. It's like he's already started out the door of that thing. So that's where he's going. You can watch him say, I need to talk to this guy. I don't know what he said to him but he probably said, yeah, I think she did it. Or am I in trouble too? Something like that for defending her. I don't know. I think he might go into self-preservation. But when she says, I think we need a lawyer. He's like, nope, stay away from me. That's what it looks like. Get that one shoulder shrug and he sort of goes over that way. He's not into it at all. It's finally laid out for him. He sees it. He knows her. He knows how she acts and she's acting guilty. She's showing that everything is true. He didn't know about this guy she was calling. Nor the idea. So this stuff is, and I'm sure it's taken an emotional toll from that point as well. Cause that's got to hurt your feelings. And all right, I'll leave it there. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm with you Chase. They shouldn't have so many people in the room but she wanted her husband there, which is a plus in this case because she just stepped in a bear trap right in front of her husband. Now, how do you use that is the key. The way you have to approach that, she has to say, look, now I've shown you all the facts. And your husband has heard all those facts. You tell me how this didn't happen. Give me a reason. Tell me exactly what happened and put it to work. But the truth is she's already working. She's behind her face. All she's doing is sitting there rolling stuff over and if you want proof, I still don't think even at that point she has grasped that they're saying, no, he told us he picked you up. They have to call it out in so many words and say exactly what happened. And the law enforcement officer calls out that she's doing a live transference. He told us exactly what you did. You got in the backseat of his vehicle and he drove you there and he branded you. So I think she's so far gone in terms of that. She's so internally focused, which we all know she is. The minute she stops looking at a person and trying to work them, now she's got to work inside and figure out exactly what's happening. So I think, you know, let's just hit the body language for a minute. Once a person gets something in their head, then you can start to read eye movement and all those kinds of things and you can start to take the story apart. But if they've done exactly what they're telling you happened, it gets really hard because now they're telling the same story but transferring it to something else. And that's what we see. Done two real world reenactments of interrogation for TV and the people had to do something for us to be able to track and read their body language and know what was happening. I love the fact she looks at her husband with helplessness and telegraphs. That's about as much external as she does. And I said, I think he has about as much compassion for her as Jerry Springer would have. He's just sitting there looking at her like, what the hell? And you're right, that foot points and he's ready to get out. It could have been a one, two-step altercation. They could have had this happen inside and then handed her off to the husband and then talked to her again. But having the husband there worked out, I would never have done it myself. She asked for a lawyer while looking at the husband, thinking he's gonna come with her and then we're done. And then there's that same home alone head grab. I think she's frying a circuit and I bet he's burning some kind of marriage license at this point. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I agree. First time I've seen that. So, you know, what came across to me was I felt it was a little bit risky having him in the room there. He's kind of limp picking in his fingers there, on his trousers as well. I'm gonna imagine that suppression of aggression. I think he's probably getting quite angry there. He's sitting his foot as well as he's pumping against that desk. Now, luckily he backs himself off, but I mean, that can often be to give you more space. He's then doing quite a big, you know, a crotch display, quite a large display. I think you're right. Yeah, the foot is pointing away, but also the legs are splayed. He's ready to get up. And also I think he's got two other males in the room and is probably soon to be ex-partner there. And my worry is he's gonna have to make a big display now. He's gonna have to get back some kind of status there. Well, I think luckily he handles himself in a way that he gets himself out of that room because I think he probably understands if he stays there, it won't be to his benefit. So I think you're right. Greg is a little bit risky having him in the room, knowing what they know, knowing what they're gonna deliver at that time and not knowing what he might do. That was quite a bold display, especially the push of the chair back and that crotch display, pretty big. Luckily he gets himself out of the room. But, you know, nice to see that escalation there in front of us. One of those tape replays. When people off the property, Robert told me all of that. James told me everything to the only person that hasn't started telling us certain facts. There are certain facts that are true. When we were sitting there talking to James, there were so many truths that were a part of your story that it's hard to decipher the lies until we put it all together. Until he says, hey, why, how did you pick her up? I opened up the passenger side seat, I opened the door, you jumped in the back seat. Why'd you do that? Why'd you do that? I don't know. It was weird. So I'm calling James a liar. Are we not believing James what he told me? No. I know your story. He did not believe that it is James. I can't believe James told us the truth. That's what I can't believe. He passed a polygraph charity. So did Keith. No, he didn't. He was a conclusive. And he was involved. So James is involved. So James is involved. But I don't believe. James picked you up. You called James to pick you up. You mailed him a letter with your address. You used a burner phone to call another burner phone for James to come and get you. You're saying since you're married, you haven't called James? No, I haven't called James. Because earlier you said you haven't contacted James. Does phone records show that you do? You did. The phones don't lie, the DNA doesn't lie, Sherry. His polygraph doesn't lie. So you can go a couple different directions now. I've already told you lying to me is a crime. So you walk out the store telling lies, and that's a crime. I think we need my word. This isn't making any sense. What's not making sense, Sherry? The parts that don't make sense. That it's James. No, the parts that don't make sense are that you're accusing two females who abducted you when it was James. The part that you were branded, James did. He told me he didn't. Who would sit there and say, I branded Sherry on her right shoulder's leg. Who does that? And told us how and showed us the letters that matched the brand. Took us to the store and pointed out the letters. The problem is today, today's the case as a result. Everything, the only things, well, how do we prove that you're telling us the truth? How do we prove that the truth is that two women took you, but I'm telling you it's a man. The fact that you were branded is true. The small fact is that you willingly laid down, did it, versus being tied to a table. So we can always, we could do the polygraph and try to, whatever parts you're confused about. Can you go to the other side? Can't talk to you? Outside? No, quick? You have to be very laid. That's fine. The fears of how out of control everything got. The fear of all these things. All right, Mark, up to this point, what do you think you've seen so far? Yeah, you know, up till now, I just wanna reiterate, if you wanna make a really decent lie, try to go for stuff that people don't know anything about, more fun, more chance for exaggeration, more chance that they have no data to be able to call you out on. This was not a good move as a lie. You know, they got there in the end. Wow, but at the same time, it still did take them four years. That's quite a while to get around to it. I guess they need evidence and it was a confession from somebody else that got them that evidence. Chase, what do you think so far? Yeah, so just a lot of behaviors and language that suggests the kidnapping was a hoax. These include a lack of emotional response, excessive rapport building, repetition, detail valleys, and I think it's possible that some alternative interrogation methods might've been used to elicit a confession. Obviously the thing is done and they did a good job. And you'd be surprised, I'm not an expert. Scott's more likely to be an expert in this. Maybe you can comment on that. The level of training that most departments get on interrogation is astonishing. It's low. Since we've started these weekly hangouts together with all you guys, all you four, three guys, I think this video will stand out as the one where every single video could've been a several hour long masterclass on deception. And so huge credit to Greg. He's the one who cuts all of these for you, literally like every episode. So these are perfect little gems of behavior that I will probably use in training quite often. Greg, what do you think? Yeah, guys, I started off by saying I almost dressed up for this one because it's one of my favorites we've ever looked at. Let me give you a reason why. First of all, we got to talk about gas lighting, where a person is focused on you and not the story, especially in a story this complex. They should be really focused on what happened to them, why, and go get those people. We never heard any of that. We talked about Dunning Kruger, where a person thinks she knows more than she does and gets herself in a bind. And funny, her body language expertise, it was clear her Dunning Kruger expertise was in absolutes. So we all think absolutes are garbage and a waste of time. We also got to talk about my favorite kind of lie, a lie of transference and see it play out and show how it works. And then under the true crime workshop, we always talk about strategies, transfer, making myself unavailable. She did that, romance or locking eye contact. She did that. Then we talk about liar's loop and deconflicting a lie. Well, she did that too, right in front of us. Scott called it out. And then finally, this was a story of big footery. I get the chance to, once I get you to believe at least I saw big foot, now I can make up all the details about turkey catching and everything else. However, Mark, there's one big difference in having a sporting lie where you get to do that. And this lie, you don't go to jail if you claim you saw big foot. Really smart move. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you, Chase. Some of the training that is, the training is lacking in law enforcement is in that specific situation is appalling. And even in, I think I've told you guys, I've trained federal judges where they said, oh, I think this and they named two or three absolutes. And I was like, you got to be kidding me. They're like, yeah, I've talked about this, or I count on that. And I'm like, dude, you can't count on any of that. None of it, it scared me to death because the information, the bad information people get. But I think this is a great example. Again, Chase, like you were saying, it's a great example of something we can use in training because it's just, it's everything we ever talk about. It's got a little bit of everything in it. And it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger as you go. Everything from turdling to chaff and redirect, to just straight outline, to transfer, and insulation. Everything, it covers everything. And all the way when we talk about the truth plane in there, I mean, what we see of that is like nothing. And when she does, it's very low. So it covers everything. It's really, I think it's great. It's great. And we see even like I was talking about earlier, someone who's really locked down and separated from everyone and barioring compared to someone who's barioring for different reasons and looks a little bit more relaxed. So I think this was a really, really great video, Greg. And I think this is a congratul, what not congratulations? What did you say? I don't wanna say. It's fine. Thank you. This has been one of my favorite. Congratulations, maybe. Do what? Congratulations. Is that dirty? I don't know. One of the guys I've been teaching a detective called me last week, just giddy with the fact he had gotten his first confession. And he said, this stuff works. I said, yeah, it does. Oh man, what was it for? Do you say? Or do you say? Yeah, this was theft. This is in a big way. And he did exactly everything we teach him, is a mix of read and sharp and everything else and a little bit other to go with it. That's a buzz, man. Well, this was good for fellas. Thanks. I will see you next time. See you next time. See you. So what do you got?