 Good afternoon and welcome back to the touch line on Y25. My name is Max Oluwasekwa. We're talking matter sports this particular afternoon and joining me is robust duo. People have been actively involved in marketing and business aspect of the game. Even I am a reputable sports market alongside Ronald Okoz founder and CEO of Rosma Limited. Even good to speak to you. Good to have you once again. The last time you on this particular shows I think towards the end of last year. Yes. How is the going? The going is very good. And of course as a manu supporter today we are hoping to use Manu United as a case study of what our local sports federations can actually adapt the structures that they can put in place to ensure the accessibility. Objectivity though? Yes. Ronald Okoz, have you been man? I'm good, isn't you? Easy, I'm alright. Good to have you on board but you looking elegant as usual and in suit despite my earlier warning to you that when you come to this particular show you don't need to look nicer than I am. No. I'm just from having a close meeting with some partners so definitely I just had to put on my coat. But next time you will heed to my advice, right? Definitely. To my warning. Yvonne, as we speak right now the fourth leg of HSBC World 7 series this small performance from Kenyan side the 7's national team of course having been beaten all the group fixtures. What's the long term solution and business aspect of the game? Let's start with Rabi. The long term solution will always be complimenting both the player and career development pathway. We see many people talking about money issues and you have to remember that the same coach that has the team in Sydney 7's right now Paul Morunga was in charge of our under 19's side for the longest time and under 19's side there was mad bascandles of age, cheating and everything you know. So it exposes our very huge gap in terms of consistency and developing the next stars that will play or represent the country at that level of competition. So apart from the normal talk about sponsors and all the politics around strikes we need to objectively look at the player development pathway identify all these gaps because even when it comes to revenue generation the avenues for revenue generation will be derived from that pathway. So the technical guys should look at that player development pathway compliment it. Then the needs that will arise from developing the next 7 stars will actually expose for marketers avenues where they can actually get or rather collect revenue from. Prorado Kotha, I know you've played football for Kormaya for Mother United. You have a company that is seeking to market the game and make the game sort of business. Do you think football is business as you speak right now? We are very own players playing overseas and getting professional victim good when I'm playing for spas but locally do you think it's getting replicated? Well I think it's a good question I think currently I don't think we really consider football as business such because if you look at the way we are running our house I think we still have a long way to go. There's still a huge gap between maybe players and all the stakeholders maybe taking advantage of the football side of things so that at least we can make our football real business. Just the other day I was speaking to one of the CEOs in one of the big teams that we have and you're telling me that we still have a long way to go. He actually admitted it and him being the CEO of the same big club that most of us we look up to them. He told me that one challenge that we Kenyans facing as a whole is that we don't have the accountability. That's why main investors they're shining away from maybe trying to invest in our football or maybe trying to chip into our football so he told me that the bulk starts with us as Kenyans as the stakeholders and hopefully maybe in the near future we'll be able to make football business and actually that's what my company right now we're trying to do. We're trying to maybe change some of these things so that in the near future the guys we are working with definitely they'll be a good example to others. Yvonne I know there are plenty of untapped potential especially at the grass root looking forward to venture into supporting activities and probably be a footballer, be a rugby star, be an athlete but the way the federations and the relevant sporting administrators locally are trying to manage the game probably it might make them get scared of even getting into the game. What should be done in the reference of how you indicated earlier comparison of how overseas teams man United Barcelona are conducting themselves and how we need to conduct ourselves locally. Do you think there is huge disconnect? Yes If you look at the top three clubs in Europe by the rankings that were released I think should be a month ago. Of course man United has been on top of those rankings for a while but it's now been dethroned by Real Madrid and then Barcelona coming in at second and man United coming in at third. If you see the parameters that are used to actually gauge the largeness or bigness for lack of a better English word of this English of these football clubs sponsorship is just a very little bit of what they used to gauge if you look at one of the parameters which is the valuation of the squad if you look at the player development system within all the three clubs one of the revenues most of the revenue that they make is by selling all these players who come through their system. You find that almost between 10 to 15% of these players end up playing for the clubs themselves but most of these players actually out sourced by other institutions to play for them. Another big big aspect is infrastructure. Manchester United has the biggest stadium among all the English Premier League clubs. The membership of Manchester United is one of the most consistent so it means the stadium will always be full throughout the season so it means ticketing becomes an avenue for revenue generation but if you look back at the bigger picture the old Trafford is an asset the old Trafford houses much more than just stadium for where the funds can come and watch the game. If you look at all the parameters used to measure the big clubs sponsorship revenue revenue generated from sponsorship is actually on the far end in fact it's usually the last thing that is looked at. So coming back home if the first person who has the contact with a player does not teach the player the proper skill set even if people like Ronald or any other I think we have some intermediaries previously known as agents in Kenya also those agents will not have a player to showcase. If you look at what's happening sometimes you go into our local league games and you look at the quality of football played and then you compare to the quality of football that you would see maybe Mtaani and you wonder where is the disconnect why is this brilliant kid here not playing in the premier league so starting from the first point of contact in our system we look at the PE teachers it would change a great deal in terms of actually monetizing sports if the PE teacher had basic understanding of one aspect of sport. Most of the unions of the global federation have actually made level one coaching I think it's free and it's accessible even online. What if we had PE teachers with basic understanding of football so that that brilliance that passion in those Mtaani is actually natured in a way which we are developing the next Harambe Stas player. You see unfortunately for us when we sell the football dream in a country nobody is talking about I want to play for the Kenya Premier League in fact we we look at it if I'm not going to make it like Wanyama I'm not you see that's why somebody like Olunga would come and play very few seasons and immediately want to go out why aren't we making a league where players will want to stay where they will want to continue competing because there is that opportunity or that pride associated with Harambe Stas playing for the national team all these small things that we do and that's why when we say about the play development pathway it's very basic. At five years old you introduce the child to any type of ball any type of ball here you're just playing for fun at eight years old now you start training to play. At eight years old it means you should know whether a child loves football, basketball, rugby, likes to run you know so you are actually training to play that means that if I'm playing rugby I should know how to pass the right way if I'm playing football I should do I should know the basics of football if I'm playing basketball same and then when we get to 12 years old then now we actually train to compete at 12 years old the boys are separated from the girls now we are training if it's football we are outscoring the other team we are defending we are not considering any goals basic. At 16 years old now you play to compete you actually play to win you train to win now now this one is becomes real that's when all the leagues people talk about in countries like China you are given you are given a milestone we are meddling in the youth olympics it's very straight forward so basically when you go through this pathway 16 now you just have its performance stage now it's excellence now you specialize in that particular event that's a basic player development pathway it circumvents all sports but now when you get into the discipline now you customize for that discipline what is very interesting is that the more you go along this pathway the more people that will surround that one player what are you creating careers careers and of course Rona Dokot speaking to you there are plenty components of business aspect of the sport and we're gonna probably give reverence to football one of the popular actually the most popular sporting disciplines and one of the key components is self empowerment of these teams clubs and that can be achieved through membership fees we've seen local clubs which enjoys huge support following in the country of slippers and gorma football club crying over you know financial instability players welfare allowances salaries dues and addressed coaching leaving the clubs because their dues haven't been addressed what can we do for self sustainance for the sake of you know stability at those particular clubs especially community clubs that enjoy huge support following what can be done so that you know there is sort of membership fee that can be channeled into you know several missions of the club so that there is stability at the club level I think we have no short cut out to this we just have to go back to the drawing board because most of our clubs unfortunately the way they are being run they are being run by individuals or let me say they are being run by kathiles and that's why we are seeing the leadership rangos and all that and it's still affecting this club because if you look at some of our big clubs they have the capability of maybe you know having their own stores where they can sell their own merchandise you know having their own ticketing system where the same way Karubang Shaks is doing currently I think we must give all the credit to Karubang Shaks because I think they are setting the best properly all the way from the structures in the youth academy even into the senior team which we are seeing currently are going to be some of the best teams that are playing the most beautiful football in Kenya primarily right now Karubang Shaks and Mother United so to me how big a teams we should just go back to the drawing board and maybe try to put in place the proper structures whereby these clubs you know can generate revenues in terms of ticketing, in terms of maybe selling merchandise because as I speak right now maybe I want to look for Gormaya Jay-Z I don't know where to buy, everyone is selling it actually they have not like I think what they need to do is like they should maybe try and pass a law or maybe they should try and maybe come up with better ways whereby Gormaya branches only Gormaya you know merchandise shops are allowed to maybe sell their merchandise everyone is selling because currently as I speak everyone is selling and you know the club is not making any money at all when it comes to selling merchandise and all that and also another thing is maybe the transfers we've seen very good players live Gormaya on a free transfer just recently Medica Gary left Gormaya and went to Simba and actually he's been paid much better playing at Simba than Gormaya but they gave him a better offer and you can't tell me that a club like Gormaya can't afford to maybe take good care of Medica Gary if they brought to Isenghe to the Kenya Premier League for a tune of 4 million I mean whatever media think asked would have been peanuts for them so to me I think they need to have proper ways whereby at least they can generate their own revenue so that they can play pay their players better they can take care of build their facilities, their stadiums and all that so that at the end of the day the club is the club that would benefit and they definitely promote the image of the Kenya Premier League if I was to add on to that I think we need a clear set out allocation of roles you see the issue comes when you try to do everything as an administrator there's no specialization so when we talk about allocation of roles or specialization it simply means that the technical team sets targets that we're going to win the Premier League and the administration on the other hand says you know what our bonus structure is going to be best by results it's a performance best bonus structure some of these things if we had the specialists do them it becomes a little bit easier because as a sports marketer right now if I was told you have a free card to handle there's so many merchants who are making Gormaia merchandise you know on game day you literally walk around the stadium you can buy 10 different shirts the branding is also very different the only consistency is the colors of the club so many clubs make money out of royalty instead of chasing away all those merchants because I cannot dictate as a club that I'm going to sell the merchandise because I'm adding a cost of rent having somewhere where I can hire licenses I have to get a team that will sell and everything what I do like Ronald mentioned before is that I'm going to have every branch if you know you are a merchant and you want to sell anything associated to Gormaia please register with a certain branch so that in any game that we are going to if it's Kariobangi branch or Madare branch of Gormaia fun club they would say we have merchant X please allow them to the venue because you see what happens again is that the revenue that comes through that merchant being there ordinarily as an event organizer I would charge vending fee but so many of these merchants almost all the security guys at Kassarani or Nyaya all our biggest stadiums so even as a Gormaia official you have no clue how many people are in that place as vendors from the onset and those two shillings if you collect those two shillings from this vending fees that's a lot of money so that every branch because the numbers are incredible for Gormaia as a club so tell our members you're supporting the club so we're introducing a centralized system when the digital age right now send our subcode you know all these members are organized all these funds are organized send our subcode join if it's a telegram group or something let's take contributions from every branch a very minimal fee what you'll find is that if there is a sub branch somewhere where they have they have a certain business venture let's say they make bread now like when we had the Gormaia bread if it was something that shouldn't be a one-off thing you get so that if I'm a member of the club and I'm the chairman of the Madare sub branch I'm saying that our premiums to Gormaia club for association because you know Gormaia is the brand the brand has been made by the success on the pitch the people who bring the success on the pitch is the technical team which is led by the coach implemented by the players they need to eat so why should I associate with Gormaia if I'm not attributing to the success on the pitch so at top level I should require premiums for anybody associating with my brand if we were to bring statisticians the KMPG KPMG they would give us a very high value of Gormaia it means even for me to come on air with a god jazzy I have to have consulted someone somewhere but the Gormaia the club has to have that specialist and are we isolating other coating disciplines because in our childhood life we used to see you see boxing it was a reputable sport in the country a lot of people participating attracting interest from even the upcoming talent but you know the standards have dwindled drastically talk of basketball who's I think several stakeholders of the game the likes of Cindy Amumba trying to do their best to put structures in place to restore the lost glory of basketball what are we isolating those other sporting disciplines it's not isolation per se even when we talk about speciality we have the people who are good technically at this but what do they don't do is capacity building so when you go maybe for a boxing game and first thing you'll notice is almost all the officials at the age of your parents that's the first thing you will notice that's the first thing I assure you there's so much boxing played like for instance the Nairobi County Boxing Association it holds over 100 bouts in different weight categories just in their league alone we've not even come to the boxing association of Kenya league but you will go to this league even some novices I held in places without rings so imagine if there was a specialist so that you say I won't let the boxing for me to be able to do my job as a sports marketer let the boxing happen but in a professional manner because if I bring brand X if I'm provided water by brand X their brand cannot be associated with boxing that does not have a boxing ring are you getting so these people in that space they go with the glory of yestai years you remember the last time we meddled infact I wasn't even born when Wangila was winning the gold I will hear about Wangila in every sitting I would go and work with because I've worked with both BAK and the Kenya professional boxing commission at different capacities but the same thing is like young lady you don't know boxing you know but you see my work is not to know the boxing my work is to find the opportunity within boxing to actually ensure the boxing continues it's not a matter of negligence I think it's a mindset problem where we refuse some people you see unfortunately not everyone can be leaders most of the sports institutions are run politically personally I'm not interested in politics I really do not care that much for politics but I know there's an input that I can make Ronald knows that there's an input he can make but I can assure you for him to walk into a boardroom there'll be a lot of leave it to us there's all that reference in our years we are not in those years I know you formed rosma limited to advocate for the welfare of players teach them on media engagement legal aspect of the game as well trying to empower them with contractual obligations and what it means to not to violate the contractual agreement but as even puts it like boxing we've had rogue promoters I remember interviewing the outgoing president of Kenya professional boxing federation and he said that something that has been bringing the game in disrepute and bringing it down is rogue promoters but you see the boxers themselves who are an integral part of the game not benefiting how do we fight this cartels in basketball in rugby, in athletics and athletics has done brilliantly well maybe because it's an individual sport and like other disciplines which are sort of team sports what can we do with these cartels if you have to get our game to another level I think the first thing that the federation did when they came into place was to pass a low I think it was something that during Nyamuia's time that was supposed to be passed whereby so maybe if you are interested to come in as an agent you must pay a certain fee and before I think it was around 25,000 Kenya shillings but right now it has been put to almost 100,000 Kenya shillings and you know it has been put in such a high amount at least they can now try to separate those guys who are serious and those who are not serious and I think that's the best way to do plus if you want to come in to be like an agent you must register with the federation only the best way that we can you know we can separate the cartels from those guys who are genuine and that's why some of us you know we are trying to put these things to be openly so that at least everyone can know what we are doing what we are offering so that you know in the past we've had players going to Europe and then coming back you know and it's been a very major problem because some of these agents they are only interested they put the money first they don't put the players very fair first they are only interested in the money but they are only interested in making money and once they take you somewhere they dump you whether you are playing or not they don't care whether how you are leaving do you need anything apart from just playing football do you want to go to school do you want to get some sponsorship endorsement they don't care about that to them it's just about they get the money the quick money they are done with you and I think it's high time that now we can also try we should also try and maybe change how some of these things are done trying to do things professional it's being done in Europe and hopefully maybe in the next few years or so the guys we are already working with this journey probably I know we'll be changing some things I was talking to a friend of mine he's a former footballer a man whose football career got crippled after getting injured he's called Anthony Modokimani he played for FC Leopards Mother United doing very well with his car accessories business located in Ningar he was a brilliant conversation he's a man who's done exceptionally well beyond football because he knew there has to be life after football and he put in place mechanisms that would enable him to be self-sustaining beyond football life he's a pandit on TV he's a businessman getting engaged in mentorship programs for the kids, for the talent you've been in rugby for quite long plenty of professionals despite playing rugby as a sport they are professionals, they have gone to school they are career people do you think other sporting disciplines will follow football, athletics actually to answer that question I would like to take us back to my initial comments when you look at the academy system that European club set up what most people always forget is that only between 5-10% of the people in those academies actually end up playing football on the field what the academies create is an environment to nurture that interest or that passion that someone has in football so what's happening within the rugby setup is that we have professionals in other fields who are within the rugby setup so when you're in the rugby space then you're mentally aware that you know what I can actually do what I love in rugby and I can actually get an income from something else but not everyone has that benefit you have to remember also not everyone can be able to afford some basic necessities like education and everything so the environment that we need to create and you remember I mentioned pathway which will automatically translate to a career development pathway in the next few years we are going to have people who are going to love football or going to love basketball from a very young age and they are going to be able to be exposed to this basketball they'll be exposed to this sport this person will not be able to afford to go to school but because there's a culture that comes every evening the mum or the dad will allow them that environment should be complemented by by a career of somebody like a therapist within the life of a sports man or woman just even not making the team to play the local league it messes up your mind just not making the team because you don't understand why in advanced countries a coach can easily tell you your numbers are not good because when I'm training my training is my performance is tracked the therapist now by the time you go and talk to the therapist one player is surrounded by almost 12 different people for me in my own opinion the world's best football player Cristiano Ronaldo has over 250 people who make him perform around him that's around him mostly because he can afford because in going through the system being exposed in the professional setup he understands that there are small boxes that needs to be ticked for me to be able to achieve this one thing like one goal and if you listen to most of his interviews he'll always say it has been made by many people it's not him alone so when you come back right home and talking about life after those not are thoughts that should come when you're almost retiring in that setup you'll see you mentioned Cynthia Mumbo before she does a program called vikapu elite basketball you don't just go for basketball at vikapu elite basketball there's a whole session on building yourself as an individual on conducting yourself in a certain way doing things in a certain manner it opens up your mindset they use the very same sport to actually nature a holistic individual that is the approach that anyone needs to use so within the school systems we've seen our primary school games and secondary school games we see a lot of talent but if you want to go back and actually analyze all that data none of that talent is playing in our premier league now of any discipline there's no follow up because somebody is also giving a choice you either go to school or you play this if we have rugby players who are able to do both then what is stopping a football player from doing the same and when Nivon is talking about the branding aspect of a player like Cristiano Ronaldo who gets motivated by over 240 million people when he's on the pitch you are tweeting something about profile of Kenyan players and how they call themselves on social media do you think we've gotten it wrong when it comes to that we've gotten it wrong because if you look at our current crop of players most of them they don't consider themselves as brands they don't want to take advantage of the fact that they are playing professional football in our league and if you look at the type of names that they are using on their social media one is calling himself Messi Alves, some funny names they even call themselves Vibes Katel and you are a football player so it even beats the fact that some of us I am involved in sports management and the clients I am working with well some of them I also got them using the same names but I told them guys we have a long term plan there are things we want to achieve we want to get you guys sponsorship endorsements we want to brand you guys as serious professional players there are things that you must change you must have a serious social media presence and profile that at least even when a coach looks at your social media or at your profile at least he can say this guy plays football but unfortunately for our players I think it is still something that just like you once said it is in the mindset we just have to change some of these things because we have seen former Kenyan internationals some of them are still using nicknames just the other day we had we were having a very heated discussion with the born for sambani and the former Kenyan international who uses his nickname born for sambani was saying that they start presenting themselves as serious professionals and the former Kenyan international would say stop lying to these youngsters let them use the nicknames they want I used my nickname and I am still famous being referred to by my nickname and so unfortunate because these are the guys who are supposed to be guiding to be mentoring and to be teaching these people how to present themselves as serious professionals and hopefully maybe it is something changing that in the near future Overally you are parting short as we wind up we won the marketing branding aspect of the game going forward Kenya getting to another level it is retrogressive Wild and 18 championship happened in Kenya in 2018 it was a fantastic successful event crowded Kasarani stadium being filled to the rafters under 20s coming to Kenya again in 2020 Is this something that has been scaring fans to go to the stadium like if you speak to my friend Josaina here we can tell you that he can't go to Nyaio national stadium to watch again between Mother United and western steamer because there is no value and that's why we've seen several Kenyan football fans giving priority to English Premier League football European football in general like one day Nikolas Musonyi secretary general of Sikafa complained Kenya Sikafa is getting stayed at Nyaio national stadium but you see there is a fan who is in a local johinda in Nairobi west following a match between Hardersfield and Arsenal at the expense of coming to Nyaio to watch Kenya play Sudan what should we do in your overall parting shot first is to tell you we need more time definitely I think you should dedicate the next touchline or the next few touchlines specifically for this definitely you've mentioned Wild and 18 championships and also the English Premier League my parting shot would be that there is an urgent need for the policy makers to also be involved in actually enforcing or rather spearheading the campaign towards having a healthy sports ecosystem the success of the English Premier League the English Premier League clubs actually benefit a lot from broadcast the money that comes in that acquired through broadcast rights what most people don't know is that the game changer was actually a load that was passed about broadcasting games during certain times like on the weekends on Saturday afternoon there will be no TV showing any game you won't see at least not the Premier League so there is a need for policy actually to stop shining away from sports to stop taking it as a joke it starts there is a bottom up approach and there is also an up bottom approach but all of them need to go currently so that we are ticking the small boxes so my parting shot is that as we as stakeholders in the sport from a commercial angle then we would like to actually encourage that from the policy makers the people who make the decisions up there they need to encourage a sporting ecosystem so that we get away and encourage more participation and following of the sport fashionista you are final word I know you are regretting because during your heydays the national team didn't qualify to African nation and you are wishing probably you are still playing football so that you represent the country during the prestigious continental shop it's happening later this year in Egypt that should be a game changer for football because it will give players an exposure and sort of you know a platform that probably in case some of them showcases their prowess they can get noticed overseas that's a big plus for the game it's a big plus for the game because this is the first time we are calling for the Afghans in over 14 15 years and I think that's a big achievement and probably that's the highlight of my year last year and also this year because we are going to see Kenya playing the Afghans and it's a good step and also it's a good platform for most of our professionals who will be playing who will have met the who will have met the threshold of maybe being calling to the national team because that's another opportunity for them to market themselves in Africa to make a name for themselves to announce themselves in the big stage and you know this is a type of tournament that many scouts are watching many agents are watching and many clubs are looking for players recruiting players and this is the best chance for them to also prove themselves that they can play against the big boys and definitely hand themselves a contract but just going into the Afghan itself it doesn't matter whether we will be knocked out in the first round or also it's just a big plus for us Thank you for coming through Yvonne Namaya Reputable Sports Maketa and Rona Dokoth CEO Rosma Limited. You know I interviewed this guy when we were just starting I think earlier last year when we were 254 we had just pioneered and he was just a mea pandit right now he's a CEO over company come on and I'm still here as a journalist talking about these things anyway you're always building people right? Thank you for coming through Yvonne of course we're going to continue with this conversation in our subsequent programming, sports marketing, sports business and even branding aspect of the game right? Thank you for coming through of course the conversation continues don't go away stay tuned we're coming up next with the fans we can see big men are already in studio we're going to be discussing matters international football with focus on transfers, fixtures, Arsenal Man City tomorrow, Sunday Super Sunday cut and raised by Man United against Leicester but before that let's look at what happened during the midweek the highlights of what happened Man United drawing against Manley Manchester City getting upset by Newcastle United Chelsea getting thrashed by Bournemouth let's look at those highlights then we will be back shortly