 Okay, we are live. This thing is on. The red light's on the camera. Welcome to the studio. I'm Alan Levine and you're here for another episode of OE Week Live this week. This is number I can't remember because I've done so many of them but the whole idea here was to run just kind of like a little talk show twice a day to talk to interesting people in open education or what is going on because this is open education week. And so we have a couple folks waiting in the wings here that I'm gonna quickly bring on stage so I can just shut up and get out of the way. But for those listening in YouTube, we lost our one listener so we're down to zero but don't worry about that folks. This is gonna be great. So with that, I'll just ignore them and I'm gonna start bringing people into the stream and just say hello to some very fine people. And so welcome to the show. And if you feel like you made a mistake you can exit at any time, okay? So I'm just gonna, I'm gonna call out just to people maybe a random order to say hello here. So I'm gonna stick to Kim cause she came in first and we got to talk and it's great to see you Kim. I got to know you through Ontario Extend and so tell us where you are, who you are and what you do. Yeah, thanks Alan. Exactly, I remember meeting you. I think it's been almost five years ago now. So I am the open educational resource consultant at Conestoga College and I'm coming to you from Kitchener, Ontario, Canada where it is sunny right now but we are expecting some so. Excellent, excellent. And I was gonna try to get my link up there and I'm gonna bring on Jane because she's your colleague from Conestoga and it's great to meet you Jane and what did Kim say to you to get you to do this? Oh, she twisted my arm. She's good at that. Thanks Alan. Yeah, I work with Kim at Conestoga College and I'm a professor there in the International Business Management Degree Program and teaching research courses and project management courses. So I'm happy to be here and share what we're working on. That's great and we'll say hello to Simon and I'm just going to quickly put a link if you're curious about Conestoga College I'll even get that on the screen really excited to hear about this project that you're working on. So thank you very much and something's beeping but I'm gonna ignore it. So next I'm gonna go to my good friend and who I'm counting on to give me a lot of sarcasm. Todd Conaway, how are you today Todd? I'm good and I'm just gonna tell stories about Alan. I'm super excited. This is just gonna be great. My name is Todd. I'm here in Seattle where part of the year it's amazingly beautiful and the rest it's just kind of drizzly but beautiful nonetheless. I get to play with faculty, they pay me to do that. I don't know why. I got to know Todd back when I was at Maricopa in Arizona and he's a super creative guy and does some brilliant things to, he does more than play with faculty. So take it away and then really pleased that my good friend Alex Enkely who, well, my good friend, we've never met except online but you participate in everything I put out there. So I appreciate it. Hello, Alex. Yeah, I tend to be willing and able to participate in stuff if people will have me. I don't want to receive a welcome anytime. So Alex Enkely, I work for Colecto which is a nonprofit in covering the whole education network in Quebec. Mostly specialized on the college network and they're tuition free colleges throughout Quebec for the past, you know, 50 odd years. So we mostly work with them and also we have like the main site that I use is called inductive. So you can get that link there, it's bilingual. So we're waiting for Mustafa to come. If he doesn't, I'll tease him relentlessly for a while, but part of the pretext is that we'll also speak in French a little bit at some point but if not, that's okay to follow on English. EC Bonn. EC Bonn or something like that. I won't torch you with my French. So I'm really pleased to see that we have some new people in the studio so they're probably wondering what the heck they are in for but I'm Alan and I set up this thing just as a means to have a little bit of informal open conversation and try to like put some excitement into the long stream of webinars that are happening out there. Nothing against webinars. Some of my best friends do webinars but I'm gonna ask and I'll probably, I don't know, mango your name is Fatih, is it? He's from kind of Silicon Valley? Right, Fatih Alan. Excellent, it's nice to meet you. So Kim talked you into this, right? Yeah, she did. She did and to be honest, I've been watching you for the last 15 minutes and I was waiting when you were gonna put me on. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't hear the beep. That's okay, sir. Boy, the beep maybe was me, I don't know. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to let you know but it was a good conversation. I just listened to it, that's nice. So yeah, I've worked with Kim and Jane at Conestoga College, Ontario, Canada, in Kitchener, as Jane said, really nice sunny weather outside, I was just outside, just picking my son and just came in and then joined you here to talk about your open education week. I'm very happy to be here. That's fantastic, thank you for doing this and I won't show you the snow out my window, how about that? I'm in Saskatchewan. Oh, okay. And now, I'm really excited to see my good friend, Chris Lott, who we haven't seen each other for like one or two pandemics, it seems like. It feels like a couple of pandemics. I know, thank you so much for joining us, Chris. Thanks. Where are you and what do you do? I am at University of Washington Tacoma. I'm the learning designer for the Office of Digital Learning there. I am currently actually in Boise, Idaho where it's a little chilly but no snow, so it's okay. Excellent. And so I'm just kind of here to chat about open and maybe rant a little bit, time permitting. Who knows? I'm kind of counting on that, Chris. But it's so good to see you. So again, I don't really have a format. Like, I know we have some projects and things that people want to share. You know, I could ask you about how you're spending open education week. I had the idea I was gonna do like a little, like do like a 10 minute thing of like coming up in the next hour or coming up in five hours. And then I thought like, okay, everybody here knows how to check the calendar. So I don't need to tell you that. So anybody wanna share something that they've done this week of interest or maybe a surprise session or maybe you haven't done anything. Oh, sorry, go ahead. This is it for me and tomorrow but that's part of my story. This is really it. But this counts, Todd, okay? I'm counting it. I, okay. Yeah, I am. Okay, do you want a badge or something? I'll make you a badge. I don't need no badges. All right, I think that Jane was talking too. Well, I'm just gonna mention I listened to one of the sessions this morning. It was Nate Angel, I think it was a created commons and it was just interesting. I learned a lot even just from one session. I hadn't been able to attend most of the week but I'll certainly watch some of the recordings. I really learned a lot from it, learned a lot about Open. It was, the PhD candidate was there. You did. Yes, yes, his comment, you know, we say kind of like, what's your name and what's your concept of Open? And that was just a really, really interesting session. It resonated well with me. So that was my start, my experience of Open this week so far. Well, that's good. Anybody else wanna chip in? Yeah, one I attended today was about the roles, librarians play in creating OERs that was in French at ATS, which is basically a technical university in Montreal. And it was very interesting to have that because like all the slips in the process, there's something in Quebec called Fabrique Rel. I'll put the link as well and Alan will share that. But so what they do is they support the creation of OERs and it's typically between pet counselors, pedagogical counselors and librarians. So I think that there's really something to be done in the, you know, the interprofessional collaboration between librarians and pedagogs basically. Yeah. Yeah. Does anybody not have like a heroic librarian at their institution? On Monday, I attended the executive celebration and then we had a jam board with everybody's projects and like the jam board was full and things were overlapping and people were so excited. And I really liked the concept of we don't often celebrate our accomplishments. We don't often take the time to sit back and go, wow, look at all that was accomplished. So I thought that was like a really cool concept and something to keep in mind moving forward for sure. Well, that's great. I mean, I don't, I'm not like taking attendance here for open education. Actually, I think I've only been to like two sessions because I came up with this stupid idea. But actually, I'm getting so much out of talking to people that it's really worth it. So where do we go next? Do you want to talk about your project, Kim? Todd, Todd's raising his hand. We have an eager student. Yeah, I was going to say I'll go first, but I'm always that way. So, Kim, if you'd like to go first, go ahead. No, go ahead, Todd. Go ahead, Todd. I'm the same. Jump in. All right, well here. You got to like that when you're running something. I have like an hour and a half, right? That's what you said, Alan. Like I have an hour, right? I mean, in time from the Mars universe. Okay. Well, here we go. I'm going to describe Todd's attempts at dragging informal learning into formal settings, particularly where faculty development is, it happens. And informal things are free, right? Like they're open. Anybody can show up usually and they're outside of the purview of whatever university you're at. So I've been completely unsuccessful in that, thankfully. And I'm going to tell you the story about how I bumped into an amazing informal learning opportunity that literally, this was like 12, 15 years ago, is happening tomorrow. So I'm going to tell you that story real quick. Once upon a time when I first got into instructional design, I like wandered into the internet and maybe, I think maybe Twitter may have been around. And I discovered this guy out there called Alan Levine. And I had some connectivity to these people in the field down in Phoenix who also knew him, but he had long since left. He'd gone off to some job at the New Media Consortium or something, but they talked highly about him. And so I started looking at what he was doing and it was just like amazing. He was like the Stephen Downs sort of Dave Cormier level of people. He was just this amazing person out there. And I was brand new to the game. It was like, wow, look at what he's doing. I was so inspired. So several years, a few years go by. And I discovered this thing called the Cyber Salon. And what it was was a bunch of teachers who met at bars once a month down in Phoenix. And they met once a month and they'd been doing it for years and Alan was part of that group. And so one day I got the courage up to go to one. I had to drive an hour and a half through the desert to get to this thing. And I get to this thing and it's at this bar and I'm like so nervous because I was from this little small town. And all these big smart people are there, all drinking their beers. They all have laptops in front of them. It was just like amazing. And there's an open seat. So I go sit at it and I'm sitting next to this guy named Alan Levine. And I was just like shaking. I was so nervous. Thankfully, he's pretty nice. We ended up going up. We had a lot of physical races together. And we hiked to the bottom of the Grand Canyon together. So all these years later, life was good. And he turned out to be a nice guy. But the connectivity and the inspiration that I got from that guy over the years and that sitting at a bar, hanging out with teachers, talking about stuff. Was one of the most inspiring long-term things that's happened in my career. And he was like, Todd, Todd, Todd. You're making it seem like I paid you to be here. Well, that's the wrong script. No, no, this is because it's amazing because you get, I'm going to leave you out of the next part except for your little, you know, you are going to show up, I hope. So what's happened here with me and my work today is that I've been part of a learning community that was up until this last year, kind of officially, officially recognized here at the college. We got some money. We had kind of some official recognition. And then for some reason they just dropped learning communities completely. However, our little learning community, all six of us were so interested in teaching and learning on the open web that we've continued on. And I think the reason we've continued on is because somehow I have managed to get some amazing people to come and share epiphanies with our little group. And it's just like walking into that bar and sitting next to somebody amazing. I mean, it's on Zoom right now because, you know, Zoom is everything and all that. But it's still happening. And I'm still, I'm able to put people next to kind of my amazing colleagues here next to these amazing people on the planet. If you look at the epiphanies link at the UWB open web, you can see the guests. Tomorrow, tomorrow, Alan and Elisa Cooper and Shelly Hugo are going to be sitting in our little learning community. And I'm just super excited because I feel like in some ways I've kind of come full circle pulling in just that willingness to sit next to somebody and doing it because you love what you do and because they're good people. And I just can't thank you enough Alan. I'm not going to send you back your money. But I really feel fortunate like that I've been able to participate in this whole thing. And that's kind of how it started was in a bar in Phoenix with beer and laptops. And it was like amazing. Well, that's my straight, I'm going to stick to it. I don't care if you're embarrassed. I am embarrassed because this feels like a setup. I do not need an ego stroke here, but I appreciate that because that was a remarkable time. And actually it was Shelly Rodrigo's idea. She had that whole concept and she's a brilliant. I was fortunate to work with some brilliant people at Maricopa. But wow, can anybody like say anything to like counter that? Chris, do you have your hand up? I don't necessarily want to counter that. I mean, I want to counter the Dave Cormier thing being up there. I don't know about that. Yeah, I want to say that in a way for me coming to UW, because I was at the University of Alaska for over 20 years and I came to the University of Washington just in time for the pandemic, which was awesome. But I was fortunate to connect with Todd. Todd has kind of been my Alan in this universe because he's had this community going and I've been able to connect with it. And it's thankfully the Zoom for me because I don't have to drive through Seattle traffic if you've ever experienced that to get north. And it's been great because I've been able to connect with this group that's self-motivated to explore the open world. And so it's going to be great to see you tomorrow, Alan. It's been wonderful to see Jim Groom. All the guests have been fantastic and it's just a lot of fun to hang out and learn. But that kind of leads me to two things I just wanted to mention. So for Open, I haven't been able to attend many events because it has some other things going on, but I did go to a session. I don't know if it was coming out of OE Global. I think it was coming out of UBC and Thompson River University, but it was a session on kind of a caring approach to open education, open teaching. And it was really interesting and I think very valid because it was talking about taking into account kind of different cultural approaches to sharing and property and the idea of copyright and licensing. And in that sense, I think it was needed and useful and I think it was Brenna Clark Gray as the person who presented it and she's bright and it was awesome. And that said, it led me to keep feeling the way I've been feeling about open education since the beginning. There was a thing called open education, right? So that's great. It's like, oh, hey, I'm doing this thing. It's open education. Awesome. Give me a badge. Give me a stamp. But everybody wants to talk about the definitions and argue about the definitions and create new ideas about how we might create another idea of open and countering the five R's with the five W's and the three C's, but nobody's making anything. Nobody's sharing anything they're actually doing from this. And I go back to this post from Scott Leslie that must be 15 years old and it was called something. I mean, I feel like it was what, you know, getting ready to just share already, basically, I think was the basic message. Planning to share was, I think, what it was called. Planning to share versus sharing. It's still as relevant as it ever was, right? I mean, everybody wants to make their bones on their new theory of open education and open learning and teaching and I just want to see people making things and sharing them. And obviously you want to do it in a contextually appropriate way and we're going to keep learning how to do it and we're going to have failures and we're going to have successes and we're going to have challenges. I know you've all had those, but I just would like to see the focus moving from the idea of open and not to say that that doesn't need to happen. It does. But we need much more emphasis on doing it, learning from and doing it again. So that's where I am. That's all good. But like, what are some things that you're doing now that you're getting to make stuff like? Well, like, for instance, so, you know, I'm pretty isolated where I am because I'm pretty much the only person outside of libraries who's engaged in open education. But for instance, I'm working with Marissa Petrich in our library and doing things about publishing with press books, which is one of the university-supported tools here and bringing students into creating and publishing books. But, you know, so that kind of thing is what I'm engaged in doing and trying to facilitate and help faculty do it. This UW is kind of regressive in that sense. There aren't a ton of people who are engaged in open education. And so, I mean, I know that people are doing things and I hope to keep hearing about it, but it just feels to me like for now 20 years, I've seen about 80%, you know, 80-20 rule, 80% talking about doing it and what it might be and 20% actually doing it and sharing it. And it's just, it's hard to do because when you're not, people aren't engaged in that en masse, there's no one for me to connect with who's doing it, you know. What about bringing back the Motley postcards? Yeah, I mean, there you go. So that was a great, that was a fun project, right? That I put together where we were talking about Ulysses doing physical postcards and sharing them and then putting them up on Flickr. So it was an open, it was kind of open teaching and learning experience using a physical media. I love that kind of thing. And I think a lot of DS106 activities kind of build on that idea and work with that kind of idea as well. And that's fantastic too. I mean, you know. So I have a deal for you, Chris. We have a way for you to get involved with us and our doing. I love it. And I'm gonna like set up my two colleagues to talk about the details. But what I want to share is that I've been in, I've probably been doing open work longer than I have before I knew it was open. But I've been really heavily involved in open work for the last five years. Publishing and helping others publish open educational resources. So about a year and a half ago, the Dean of the school that I was working in put me together with Jane to talk about this idea of case research and could we make it open. And I was introduced to this community of people that are involved in open case writing who have a lot of alignment with open people in general. So they have developmental workshops where they help and encourage other case writers to improve their cases to a point that they're ready for publishing. And so I was like really excited to see that intersection of the two communities and how much alignment there was. So I'm gonna set up Jane because really this is her lead in my role I support people in what the publishing that they want to do. And so Jane, do you want to, or Fatih between the two of you, do you want to like talk about the open access teaching case journal and all the wonderful work that goes into getting a case ready published with us? Before we do that, just my simple mind, like what do you mean by a case? I mean, I think it sounds like it has maybe a context there that I'm not missing. So I think Jane and Fatih can explain it back. That's a good question. Okay, yeah. What do we, a case be like a situation, a kind of real world situation. It's case research really, right? So you're examining a situation in an organization and the idea is to apply a theoretical lens or a framework because you want to teach it in the classroom. It's an educational resource. So the case is that situation that you choose and it's always associated with an instructor's manual that has the theory that kind of helps say, oh, how you want to apply the situation in the classroom because it's really a setup situation to let students go through and analyze the situation. So that would be a case that we would publish in our open access teaching case journal as we published the cases and we're so thankful to be connected with Kim. She makes them look so great. They're accessible. We can share them because really the foundation came in my mind from, as Kim mentioned with our dean kind of linking us together without principles for responsible management. We wanted to kind of share resources, create resources that we can share with our programs but also with others. So then we developed the case research because we're a business school and a lot of business schools will use that case research approach. So we go through kind of building the kind of homegrown skills in terms of developing the case writing skills because it is an art. You have to have that partnership to have access to the case story because it has to be a real case story and a real situation. In some cases you'll actually have the decision maker come into the classroom to talk about after the students have analyzed it, what did they do and so it really brings that learning experience to life. Okay, yeah, I don't think well duh, case study that makes sense and I can see that in business and also like Kim's field in medical and health you see it used a lot. How do you go about maybe finding ways to do it for disciplines where maybe it's not done as much? Do they do case studies in math or engineering? Well, I'm sure they do. I have to keep in mind we're just starting. This is our first issue and we have great aspirations to bring in other disciplines but if I think maybe he's an engineering background he could perhaps talk better. Oh, look at that, I just picked that out of the head and I got lucky. That's one of the reasons I wanted to jump in. I'm coming from engineering background. I teach now supply chain and operations management courses but when I was in the engineering faculty doing my PhD and for a sub force I also taught in the engineering classes. The case study is not the real thing when you're teaching engineering classes but we sometimes use scenarios but scenarios are just made up situations. So when I started teaching in the business school and in the first one or two years I wasn't too much familiar with the case studies and I just went on teaching with traditional content and et cetera and then I was introduced to through some colleagues about teaching case studies and I really enjoyed it. I really liked it and I started teaching with case studies which are real life situations as Jane examples rather than scenarios that are made up. So and then I really enjoyed teaching and I said why not starting to write some of those case studies and I wrote a case study that was already on my portfolio that coming from my own experience and it went well, I published it one of those regular journals and then through this committee work, this case research development committee I was introduced to open educational resources in the last two three years and then when the opportunity arise arose and then we started to build case studies through research with industry partners and then now we're publishing in our own open access case teaching case journal. So yeah in different fields it's different but in business and management courses teaching case studies are really effective teaching tools one may not be in every field as of now. It makes sense to me I came across there's a platform called ScholarRX it's for the medical field and their system is built so every piece of content, every chapter starts with a case example like a situation and so to me that really appeals to ground learning something that makes sense in terms of a person in the world who's dealing with it. So this is great because I'm working with a faculty member in the business school who is doing case studies with his students but they're all locked up inside Canvas and I'm trying to work with him to talk about how it might benefit his students experience to open that up a bit or to do some collaborations with other courses so that's something I mean I literally just before I was late to this because we were having a session which these are all open this is another thing we do that about every other week we have these one hour open sessions and this last one was on peer engagement through peer review with some interesting and counter intuitive research on that but one of the faculty members was a math instructor who was doing technical writing with her math students and this fits perfectly it's kind of a different genre that follows the same kind of contours than these students too could be working in the open with this and it would really benefit I think both parties teaching and learning sides but it's again that that convincing people to try it out to run that risk and then you know finding the platforms and stuff to do it's easy it's that it's that working with them to actually open up so maybe through some collaboration and seeing some of these different you know where you're doing it for instance Jane maybe there would be an opportunity for this faculty member to see some more value there a different different lens on it yeah be happy to collaborate and that's the other thing I wanted to mention in terms of appeal you know we have a peer review process in place which helps which we do kind of help generate the skills but the journal has a peer review so if you know faculty are interested in submitting the work or you know collaborating we'll provide feedback as well in terms of doing that but yeah I think the collaborative part of this whole project is what is really helped us to gain success in having our first issue published last week as well yeah I mean I think it's kind of a theme in my experience working with open education that you know no profit you know without honor you know in it in its own land that it nobody wants to hear me trying to convince them anymore but we need people to see the examples from outside to work with people outside and that when we can make that happen that's awesome so maybe I'm curious what was the impetus to do like organize a research journal around is it to advance the practice is it to well I'll leave it at that I think from my perspective I'll let Kim and Fadi talk about their ideas but from my perspective it was basically to have more material to the high quality materials available for use in our classroom to really improve that learning experience to have those relevant because we're a applied learning institution so we wanted to have more available free to use free to publish you know you know improve quality education so it really started with that sustainability lens as well as improving the volume of cases available for our courses and then to share with others because you know we are our courses aren't so unique that there's not other schools out there that that would be interested and before Kim was the first on so we got the chat do you want to bring up the L word the license like yeah I think that's a really good point because I know that there is some you know question over OER being totally repurposeable and of course we put in on derivative an open access license on our work and the reason behind that is these are real stories and real companies and they've signed off so we can't have people repurposing those stories but I think that benefits to the open access teaching case journal is it gives opportunity because it's free to publish and we know not all open access journals are free to publish and they are primarily research journals and you know Fatih expand upon that this is a niche that I didn't see in the open world when I started Jane and I started working with Jane and Fatih I do want to say we have the case research mentorship development program and Fatih and Jane were my mentors this is the first time I wrote a case even though I've written textbooks before and so that really provided me an opportunity to learn about case writing and to publish and we offered that to in-house but we invite people externally to some of our workshops so you know there's that real developmental approach and I think there's a good reason for why the license that we chose it's still free to publish it's still free to publish and we have a lot of resources to use it's peer reviewed the ecosystem we're setting up is that we review for each other so if you make a submission we ask you to review and so any of the other costs are being picked up by the institution and so there's a lot of benefits to the work that we are doing. That's great. It seems like open practices right so even you know we certainly have a lot of it you know as Kim mentioned there's we have a lot of resources that we're providing the skills for sharing the resources so it certainly seems like a lot of those open educational practices apply. Sorry Fatih, I jumped on you. No, I was just I also see this as a very effective two-way stream in the sense that it gives the faculty members a real good opportunity to get involved in applied research as well I'll give you an example and in the last eight months I was involved in applied research that we got some funding from funding agency and then we hired a co-student and our industry partner needed some improvements in their capacity planning and inventory issues so together we implemented some lean management approaches and techniques throughout the eight months we collected a lot of good information from them and then we created now we're in the process of creating the case study and hopefully it's going to be published in our open access journal so this way it's a wonderful opportunity for the faculty member to keep their professional currency up to date because we're in applied learning and also create really effective instruction the open access educational resources at the same time. Thank you and on a step in here I'm going to come back Alex just three days so late we don't have French is that going to be okay? Of course it is as I said at the beginning it's perfectly fine I will tease Mustafa but it's perfectly fine and actually I'm posting in the chat here on the stream yard do you perceive that there's a difference in incentives between open education and open access and some of the incentives for open access really go well with research and having basically promotion tenure and reappointment but do you perceive that there's less of an incentive to work in open ed overall for teachers and it's harder to convince people or it's a gateway or how do you perceive that? I can start so I would say in the work that I've been doing and a lot of I almost feel like I'm a marketer so I go to lots of leadership meetings faculty meetings and every time I'm in the room I have buy-in so people are interested and I think it's still awareness I still think awareness is a big one and tying it to scholarly outputs has been really important connection that I think people it resonates with them and I have even more buy-in and then now post pandemic it's even become easier because it's just there's just so much less restrictions to use open educational resources and there's so much more available and it's high quality people are looking at repurposing that and adding in their own content because while I am supporting the open access teaching case journal also support educational resources and we have like in the last year published I think eight digital textbooks along with some other and tons of adoptions so I don't actually have all the stats because it's just happening too fast but just to give you an idea like it's definitely people are interested I just wanted to throw in here I think we have three intertwined things here we have open access journals we have open education resources we have open education thing that we through all three of them I certainly see that open access which faculty understand because they see the similarities to other kinds of publishing is more interesting typically than open education and even open education resource and part of that is because most university faculty aren't that interested in teaching that is either not their primary thing or there aren't any incentives for them to teach more richly so they're much more interested in the promotion for themselves in the gateway which sometimes is that's great but I do think that open education the teaching and learning process in the open in that contribution is third on the tier of interest between open access using resources than actually working out in the open and trying to make those steps I would put them the other way I guess how to move up that ladder is what I'm particularly interested in doing and it just continues to be a challenge Is there some of a factor? I mean an open access journal or open access publishing it's pretty clear it's not completely defined but conceptually people understand what they're talking about open education gets really broad and nebulous I mean are we talking about an animated GIF versus an entire published press book or something like that so I think maybe the range of what is included under that category is where it gets kind of murky I mean absolutely that's kind of why I like to see more happening in the open where we can actually say here's a specific thing that's happening in a course that is actually open in the open teaching and learning process versus showing a journal or versus yeah the wide universe hey let's do this thing and let's explore the universe that's challenging That was your comments for just making me think of what I learned this morning with Nate shared the bingo the bingo with its kind of different aspects of openness and that it would always change and there was always one box open because it will evolve and I thought what a good perspective that resonated about with me again that kind of example that we'll take it there'll be aspects that are great with the whole education process even with a program or a course or a certain particular resource and then evaluate it not necessarily kind of measure it but evaluate it to see where you can improve and even thinking Kim when we are talking about the no derivatives license like I'm just wondering like do people make derivatives of journal publications like do they reuse bits of them like you know you make use of course content or what we think about remixable OER so that's why to me it's not a problem I mean you have a published thing that you're making available openly versus all the stuff that's behind paywalls for me that's a step in the right direction I agree it is a step in the right direction and I think in order for people that maybe haven't been in the open world before to feel comfortable to publish with us it's important that we have that protection and that you know so the more people will join and you know that's my hope I mean I see the same thing where people really want the most restrictive license possible in a comfortable way that's the closest thing to regular copyright that they can understand and then hopefully sometimes trimming some of those off I mean I've gone back and forth in my own life over the years and I'm pretty much a CC by person at most or if not just CC zero but I understand why faculty and people don't necessarily want to do that and that was part of the session that I attended this week that I think their point was interesting in that respect about respecting kind of different ideas of privacy and property but I think you run into some real issues where at some point things just aren't open anymore even if you're calling them open if it's so restricted or you want to look retroactively or you're so we're I mean man I wish somebody would take my stuff and do amazing thing and terrible things with it rather than just doing nothing with it that's I'll cross that bridge of popularity when I success when I come and let's not forget moral rights right traditional knowledge labels are the ones we hear the most about in the OER scene because it does apply it can really apply that we need to respect those labels and to restrict some things about educational resources that are technically open but still need to be restricted in some ways and because in Canada our moral rights are relatively weak compared to other parts of the world and even weaker in the US it's not even mentioned in copyright law in Canada there's a few things including the right to your own image that's the one that we have in Quebec so there's a whole thing about the licenses are a big part of the story for OERs they're not necessarily a big part of the story for open education itself and they're part of the story for open access itself it's not about education it's really about open research it goes really well with open notebooks like open science in which case people do take apart a research article that has been published and do something else with it but it's not the same way as we adopt and adapt open educational resources and just to push back a little bit on something that was said earlier about university teachers not being interested in teaching which I've lived I've taught in universities for 20 years the thing about it is that I now work in a context like the colleges that I was talking about that are across Quebec there are 48 CGEPs that we call and I'm not doing explaining to some of you because it's on YouTube just to say that those are tuition free colleges that are available to anyone and there are professional programs that are pre-university and they tend to be very useful to get people to democratize education it's been going on for more than 50 years something about it is that the points teachers are getting are not based on research it is possible for college teachers to do research but don't have to so when they do they do it because they're passionate and every college teacher in the system teaching is their main thing and because of that in our context it's been very easy to focus on the pedagogy of it it's not just about releasing a resource that happens to be open it's that the work with the resource is the point itself like it's kind of like there's been a thread today that Alan started on connect about what do we do 15 years 7 years after Robin DeRosa was talking about textbooks we're still doing the same things and the conversation is still about the resource itself but turns out David Wiley talked about last summer that typically the most impact comes from the instructor the support she receives and the instructional design that makes a lot of sense that's kind of the point of what we do when it's open education itself is to help people learn so the fact that we showcase a lot of initiatives that's really great like Chris you're talking about those promotions basically of people who talk about what is being done to plan the work but a lot of the work is not promoted because it happens underground by people who are not known by those who make decisions about programs the teacher will create a wiki about dentistry 15 years ago every semester all of the students are doing an exercise specifically on that wiki it's all open pedagogy but nobody knows about it because it's only when he had a technical issue and I just answered the call it's that kind of thing that what we can do together probably to act together like Kim offered extended the invitation to Chris to come and contribute what we can do in terms of building the community itself something that has happened in Quebec 15 years is that just a bunch of us 40 of us from universities and colleges got together we got certified from creative comments so really assessing those issues including the fact that our collective agreements for professionals don't typically give us the rights to our own work even though it is the case for teachers that they get their own work but from those issues we got together to create a lot of work together like it can be the resources themselves but certainly workshops that we keep doing to bring more people in and to assess those issues right I think there's something to be done really just about getting together and yes discussing the definitions of open education that's part of the thread from today for kthwealth like it's probably not a good idea to even mention the term but to actually just do the work but to get together to actually showcase what other people are doing at the other side of our communities of practice amen absolutely I mean and I want to be clear I'm not slagging on faculty it's I think they're in a mini like at UW they're in a no win situation for the most part because if they are if they're teaching lecturers they have an unmanageable workload so it's going to be very difficult right and if they're by part tripartite octapartite whatever they are teaching is not necessarily incentivized in that situation and then once they're promoted then teaching is not recognized not supported the faculty development isn't there like it just it's so minimized in most institutions how important the teaching part is so when you have that context then you're trying to break open you're relying on that intrinsic motivation and that is what you can do by when people are in these kinds of situations so I'm not knocking faculty for being faculty I'm just saying that the institutions are in many cases broken and it's hard to work around that right I think I know I have always looked north for inspiration right whether it was Christina Hendricks at UBC or the whole e-campus Ontario I mean Conestoga I mean you guys for whatever reason done amazing work in open education and I remember being in Arizona and thinking Washington State was like this epicenter of open because Cable Green lived there and he was he was the shine you know David Wiley Cable Green they were like the shining beacons of hope you know and I got up here to University of Washington and it was like nowhere to be seen like nowhere and I think that you know maybe in the US just the amount of labor being asked of faculty particularly around service and these other pieces of the teaching world is such that you know for for us it's just a little teeny group of us in this teaching and learning on the open web who are kind of evangelical about what we're doing but there's literally six of us you know it's hard to make a huge impact with the six of us Cable's still there do you want his home address? No I mean definitely the perception and you know I'm not going to speak for my colleagues like it's not like we have everything here but it's interesting like I looked to Scotland that way I was in some sessions this morning like you know stuff that they were able to do on a national scale and they just shrugged their shoulders and usually other places tend to look like things are better but you know there's the reality there and so like I'm sitting here wondering and talking about some of the things that Chris said or you know often now does someone like say like oh I really just want to do something I'm going to go create a wiki like I'm wondering if that self-starter spirit and a lot of it has to do Chris with the workload and of course the aftermath of the pandemic and so I have a feeling a lot of us are are all kind of like we're frazzled and what do we do with that? No I mean I agree it's that kind of pioneering spirit that over time has to change into something else but it feels like it's become pretty dull in a lot of cases and it's sad and hard and I mean I feel it too I mean I'm not out there blogging as much as I used to and sharing as many things as I used to and kind of just jumping out there as much as I used to because I'm tired too I mean I certainly understand it it feels like a lot of the circle that over the last 20 years has formed and ebbed and flowed this definitely feels like we're in an eb tide right now but isn't aren't open educational resources a great way to engage people I just finished filming a bunch of testimonial videos from faculty that have been involved and it's been so satisfying I guess it's been exciting to hear how completing and being part of an open educational resource and publishing has reignited their passion for teaching and isn't that what the research shows so maybe we just have to like find those newbies right that help us to get re-inspired and go yeah that's what it felt like the first time so yeah and I think there's administrative pressure because what they understand about all of this in my experience a lot of administration is they understand OER is a cost saving measure to attract students right I mean that's where they come from and I think with that lens it makes it hard to make that jump to contributing to OER and you know what I mean so I think that's the step we're trying to help people take because you know you can quantify that I'm saving students $120 a quarter by having this open resource and I implement that and libraries focus a lot on that at UW and that's great like I do want to see that adoption it's wonderful but that step towards contributing and having the cycle within the open teaching and learning experience that's the sum I'm trying to make so it's great you're having people get excited I think that's ideal right like they contribute and they get excited and they do more if I could say I think a part of that too is the sustainability right so we are a prime signatory principles for responsible management so if you know that initiative that really leads to open and so many benefits there as well so you know we have institutional support for that we do have our signatory for that but you know I think that sustainability is across the globe so perhaps linking it to that in institutions trying to see those benefits those links then that could help because I agree it's that administration support the institutional support that makes a big difference to give you the time and ability to do that but you know that sustainability lens could really help as well hey Todd don't you just need like ice cream and cookies like we've been working on that too it's it's so weird that when people when anybody sees something that inspires them in the world in their work I'm I am hopeful as a mostly glasses half full person usually you know getting my main job when I'm doing my job well I feel is putting faculty work in front of other faculty in some way right and I feel like that's the highest plane I can exist at and I don't have to do any work right it's not me and it's hard to do that though and it's really hard to get it in front of administrators especially when when it often needs explaining or a little bit of explanation as far as what goes into making it happen you know like oh here's a website that it's a press book you know I'm not sure they get like that students contributed to it or that it all the little technical pieces that go into it and that yeah but we're working on it we're trying to we're trying to put amazing things in front of our faculty and I don't expect things to change by four o'clock tomorrow but maybe next week it's gonna be right after your session isn't it yeah well it's change management right and we all know change management takes time and this is a big change for a lot of people and I know people have been at it for quite a few years and I often say to colleagues that maybe are feeling a bit frustrated is we're just holding the baton for a little while this is a marathon it's just our turn to hold the baton and we're gonna pass it on to someone else and I told someone else in a message who was very frustrated with her institution is like it always takes longer than you think it should and usually just when you're ready to say like I'm done like somebody comes around knocking on your door and they're ready for it so a lot of it is just playing even a longer than the long game the other thing I was thinking of someone mentions the role of students you know I think if you can get the students engaged because institutions do see that voice as their opinion so if you can use materials in the classroom I had Kim come to one of my classes last term and also use the materials get them engaged maybe doing some of the exercises even some development that's another way that could help promote and raise the awareness go ahead Alex go ahead speaking of students and basically hope something that gives me a lot of hope is that student associations tend to get more involved these days and in fact some of us have been talking about the national strategy for Canada and the whole federation of student associations across Canada are part of it and it's driving a lot of change like there are newbies in that sense and there will be turnover but what won't be turned over is the organization itself so there's a lot of hope there even in government like government of Canada is actually giving us a lot of hope like they're not involved in education itself but they're doing things including the school of public service they're doing their own open education work and there's a lot of hope with beyond institutions towards something that's not your administration but actually the whole network that was great because you asked this question in the chat and I think it's a great closer and I just want to thank everybody for that fabulous conversation this is really what I hope for anybody want to say like Alex spoke a little bit what gives you hope? let's end this on an upbeat note these conversations give me hope because one I'm much more isolated than I used to be but the pandemic hit and so whether it's face to face conversations which I've had some opportunities for recently or these kinds of conversations they give me a lot of hope push and promote this gives me hope that maybe we can start seeing that happen here too what gives me hope is that every time I come away from a presentation I have some new people that are interested and curious we're going to tell her gently Jane you're muted what gives me hope is seeing things come into fruition we had our kind of issue launched last week so it's a very long process to get it happen to see it tangible development and interest in it for going forward that gives me hope for sure I'll give a super selfish I like to you go ahead Todd I got a super selfish selfish answer but you know when I can catch myself seeing that we are improving and it is progress I count that as a win because we are making progress but some days it's hard to appreciate or really feel but those moments when I do I feel like that gives me hope for me I'm just thinking two years ago are you almost nothing about open educational resources today still there's a lot of things that I need to learn but at least I'm now involved somehow with it and we now have a journal that we're trying to move forward with my colleagues so that gives me hope as Jane said well that's great in fact I'm going to start using that question that's a great one to wrap up with Alex so I love it I just want to thank everybody for willing to play along with this it's wonderful to meet you Jane and Fatih and add you to people I know and Kim thank you for doing this and bringing this in Chris we're going to catch up we have to catch up man I really miss you and I'm with you I want to make stuff and Alex we're going to keep stirring it up right and of course Todd you do a phone call this is great to meet people and to put some names to faces but for quite a while it seems like and Todd and Alan have been great help for me specifically where I'm at and so I like that Dave for me not so much we can give Dave crap anytime so there's going to be a video that goes out and then the broadcast will end thank you so much you folks really make this thank you