 Joshua Cooper, your host, and welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around the world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii and Moana, New York. Today, we'll be looking at Ukraine in the United Nations, the Human Rights of Self-Determination and UN reform. I'm so honored to be joined by the Council General in San Francisco, Dmitry. Thank you so much for making time. Hello, just thank you very much for having me. We'll be looking at the United Nations, which is commemorating its creation in San Francisco and its promise of the right to self-determination for all peoples on the planet. On the 77th anniversary of the UN Charter, it enshrined human rights for all people everywhere on earth. And Ukraine is demanding its right to self-determination, but more importantly, reform of the UN to make sure all people have their rights. Ukraine is demanding reform so all people can live in a rule of law-based order rooted in human rights. And today we're actually recording live from the Palais in Geneva, Switzerland, where the League of Nations was created in the early 20th century. And Ukrainian people have been demanding their basic fundamental freedoms and core human rights since then, and were there at the founding in San Francisco in 1945. Dmitry, thank you so much. And maybe you could share with us a bit about the right of self-determination for the Ukrainian people then and today. Hello, again. So, you wanna start with the United Nations thing or you wanna start even earlier? We can begin where you desire. I know we can look at the League of Nations. So many people, when they look at the right of self-determination for Ukrainian people, the exciting part was Woodrow Wilson, demanded the right of self-determinations in the League of Nations Charter, the precursor to the UN. So I know the Ukrainian National Republic had participated even back in 1918, 19 and 1920. Maybe you can share a bit about that. Yeah, so I would probably start even saying that when this war, the Russia started against Ukraine right now. And many people, while I was meeting with them, asked what's the historic context? What is it about? Why Russia attacked Ukraine? And so because Russia was trying to explain to the world that Ukraine has always been a part of Russia. And apparently that was not true, never. And probably you know that Ukraine was founded as the country, as the city of Kiev was founded like many, many hundred years ago before Russia. And so like Kiev is 1,500 years old and Moscow is only 800 years old. And that's why historically, we always been different. And it exists before. And then it's all continued during centuries, centuries. And then at the beginning of the 20th century, there was the Second World War and the revolution in Russia, where the communists basically have taken power and got rid of the emperor, the tsar and killed him eventually. And Ukraine used that situation to start another round of fighting for the independence. And that's why Ukraine People's Republic was created in 1970 and later the West Ukrainian People's Republic was created and then they united together and denounced the joint Ukraine. And when that happened, Ukraine, Ukrainian delegation to the League of Nations tried to get the kind of approval or kind of information from the League of Nations so the Ukraine would be recognized as a country after the Paris negotiations, which were taken after the Second World War. And at that time, we had actually resistance from the Western part of Ukraine, Western Ukraine had resistance from Poland, to be honest. And that's exactly opposite from what's happening today because right now, today, since Russia started the war against Ukraine this year, the Poland is our biggest ally. And as it was said, all the historical differences which existed between our nations in the before have just stopped to exist because there's such a unity between Ukrainian people and Polish people right now that I don't know, it's never existed before. But you know, the time what happened in history was a little bit different. And at that time, different Polish government wanted to have control over some Ukrainian territories because they understood that if they don't, then Russia would take over Ukraine. And unfortunately, at that time, the League of Nations was not, I don't know, strong enough or the organization did not work as needed and it happened for a long time but all the efforts and the attempts of Ukraine to get confirmation of its independence or at least the subject of international law in order to be recognized by the League of Nations failed and eventually the League of Nations failed itself because the main purpose of establishing the League of Nations was to preserve peace and territorial integrity of countries of Europe. And even at that time, one of the diplomatic nodes which Ukrainian delegations and to the League of Nations was that Soviet Russia is attacking Ukraine, is killing its citizens and we need protection. So basically the same thing was happening about 100 years from that time right now. And again, the League of Nations was not having enough power to do anything about it. And then eventually Russia has captured Ukraine and Ukrainian and included Ukraine as an autonomous republic in the big Soviet Union. And then Ukraine after the Second World War joined the United Nations as a kind of a separate founding member in 1945. So it was the Russian, Soviet Republic, Ukrainian and Belarus at that time. So that's how it is and that's the historic context which can act the events 100 years before to the war right now. Oh, that's an excellent historical context for people to understand because exactly what Russia was trying to claim about being part all the time is ignoring that history. And I think what you also brought up regarding League of Nations was one, it was interesting that in 1919, 1920, it was regarding violations in Poland but now Russia's actions have united you. But the other big issue that gives a historical context before going to San Francisco where you're now based is that aspect of the Holodomor and that starvation to inflict death where another totalitarian leader of Russia tried to run over and caused at least 3.9 million deaths and almost 13% of the population being eliminated. And that's one dictator wanting to replace the small farms of Ukraine and punish the independence mining Ukrainians that were posing that threat to the totalitarian authority. And I know that I think was one more thing that maybe people don't know enough about and maybe you could share that before we get in to San Francisco in 1945. Yeah, I will just tell you that I was surprised maybe a week ago I was walking on the street in San Francisco and I heard the people like local people speaking between each other like about there were three of them and they were talking about Ukraine and one of them was explaining to the other ones about did you hear about this thing Holodomor? So the famine which exists and people said no and he was started telling them and it was great for me to hear that people even who didn't think or heard anything about it before started to learn that, I don't know maybe from television maybe from reading something but it's great thing that happened but the historical context is such that Russian government as a time is telling wanted to have control over Ukraine well, I think actually kind of did but there was a strong Ukrainian resistance as always and so they decided that they need to make more control over people and make the population of Ukraine less and that was easy for them to do by taking the harvest, the green, the weeds that people had especially as farmers taking that from them and not allowing them to consume it themselves and then basically leaving people to starve and the numbers of people who died in 1932-33 in Ukraine because of Holodomor this great famine are actually much bigger those numbers vary from 8 to 10 million people and there are some arguments about the exact number but it's a lot, it's huge especially so there was no war at that time it was absolutely a peaceful time and it has been brought to the world's attention by some US writers and journalists who brought it to the attention of the world because at the time there was the internet there was no social media so whatever Russia wanted to control and does not allow the information to go in the world it could do that and you know that again we can connect it to the events right now there's Russia right now by imposing a blockade on our sepores and not allowing Ukraine to trade to send grain and wheat to the world is basically creating another famine another okay maybe not famine but at least a huge food insecurity situation in the world and the countries which are suffering which might be suffering a lot from that the Northern Africa or some Middle Eastern countries and some other ones where Ukraine was a supplier for 30 or 40% of the wheat or grain they consumed so right now is again a huge efforts being taken by Ukraine together with international allies and also including Turkey with the we hope with the United Nations and the World Food Program in order to introduce some instruments which would allow Ukraine to send the grain it has which is already sitting in under some ships who cannot leave the port or in the grain storages to be sent to the countries which need them and I was just last week I was participating in the Summit of Americas which happened in LA and almost all the small island small island countries were mentioning that this war the trash start against Ukraine has already influenced on them even though it's too far and the influence is because they already feel that the food insecurity and the perspectives of this are even worse that's why it's very important to the global context because I know that some people think like yeah there is another war happening very far and it doesn't touch me directly while it does already and it will eventually even more and that's why we have to do everything possible to stop it and while it's still happening to use international influence on Russia to let the grain and wheat and all the Ukrainian ships with food to leave to allow Ukraine to trade in order to save the people to provide it to help to the people who need it in the other parts of the world who do not have the earth, the soil which produced a lot of these things that we produced and will produce in future. Those are excellent points and it also connects it all together because the truth is as you talked about the Holodomor it is true that Ukraine has really been a bread basket sharing and exporting wheat to so many and it gets back to the origin of the UN Charter the idea in 1945 was never again and the other aspect was article 55 and 56 that if there's ever a situation where anyone's rights are denied we all have a moral obligation to stand in solidarity together because if one conflict happens in one part of the world the world understood in 1945 it ripples everywhere and you're just illustrating now if we can't solve this situation and connect the consequences there'll be more and more uncertainty and instability around the world and that's why we have to stand up of that right of self-determination and all human rights for all people. Right, absolutely, absolutely and as you mentioned at the very beginning that in a couple of days there will be a celebration of 77th anniversary of the creation of United Nations here in San Francisco which is where I am located we can now say that it's now clear that the goals set in San Francisco in 1945 during the creation of this global international security organizations have not been achieved and it's impossible to achieve them without the reform because therefore we must do everything possible and our power to pass on to the next generation and effective United Nations with the ability to respond preventively to security challenges and thus guarantee the peace because peace, establishing peace and preserving peace was the main objective of the United Nations and if it fails to deliver this result then as our president Zelensky says maybe it should just stop existing maybe it should be replaced by a new organization with a different charter and different way how to organize so the countries are cooperating because on one hand we have the organization existing for 77 years and it probably has provided some help in many situations but in the main one so to preserve peace it failed and not only in this case right now with the Russian war against Ukraine but it has failed in many other ways and that is because the coming back to the creation of this organization it was basically created by winners of the Second World War and those winners were those who actually are a permanent member of the Security Council of the United States Soviet Union, UK, France and China maybe by the way France was not a huge winner but it was good that at least we have it there and it happened that these five countries have made the UN charter in such a way that they can block any decision which the United Nations wants to take yeah there is also General Assembly where the members are almost 200 countries but the main decisions about the security and war and peace are taken by the Security Council and this was the first time Ukraine felt that it's the United Nations was not effective it was in 2014 when Russia first attacked when it actually invited Crimea and then made the annexation Crimea and occupying it now for eight years and then entered an attack feed on bus but at that time Ukraine was not prepared for this war at all and we are more prepared right now but nothing has changed so no reforms have been taken and the idea right now is that as our president says we should reform the United Nations in such a way so that all states abide by international law so that no one violates the world order and in the United Nations system and in particular in the UN Security Council so that it would provide a fair representation for most nations of the world and the voices of all entire regions should be heard, which is vital and by allowing Russia to keep the right of veto power over any decisions we have this situation when it blocks any possible resolution against itself we also understand it's difficult that the United States also has veto power and sometimes it's important that it uses it but probably those five permanent members should sacrifice their veto right and rearrange the or make reform to the United Nations at least in such a way that the country which is participating in the international dispute cannot vote and has no like it actually kind of exists right now but it just doesn't work, unfortunately and it's exciting because we're talking about San Francisco which was significant and it's exciting you're posted there now because that's where for the first time it said every person, everyone on earth was born in dignity and rights and so that was a significant step but as you said, one of the weaknesses was creating the security council with the veto another body that was created is right upstairs for me now it is the UN Human Rights Council and what was exciting was when Russia invaded this time many people thought because it is a so-called superpower nothing could be done but the US had just rejoined the human rights council and one of its first acts on the council with all of the like-minded states to stand up for liberty consistently created a commission of inquiry on Russia and even had a special session at the human rights council so those reforms you're talking about need to happen but it's exciting to see the commission on human rights be able to transform to the human rights council and make sure that even a large superpower who's violating the charter that was established in San Francisco could still be raised on those issues and now a commission of inquiry working with to document all the human rights and international humanitarian law violations as we're also near the international committee on the Red Cross or across the street Right, absolutely and also as you know that Russia was finally expelled from the human rights council yeah, probably maybe one of the first times it happened when a big power of the world has been expelled and Russia would not believe that it's possible to do but yeah, it's important but much more should be done and has to be done and there's also one thing which exists in the United Nations it's so-called RFP, it's the responsibility to protect and that means that whenever some injustice happened in the world and this war is definitely injustice but this is unprovoked absolutely war by Russia that the countries members of the United Nations have to unite and to act against these countries but and this is enough grounds to act but unfortunately the United Nations has done nothing to act and we can also remind us an example when even without the United Nations resolution the United States together was native countries it has acted before in the 1990s when Milosevic in Yugoslavia was killing actually it was a slaughter or even maybe genocide of the other peoples of former Yugoslavian Republic and in our understanding the United States together with the lies could help Ukraine more and I'm not speaking as a diplomat I'm speaking on behalf of Ukrainian people who like speak a lot about that because the people, not regular people they don't care about what prevents the countries to help they just need real help and we are grateful that we got the weapons from the United States but we think that so much more can be done to restore justice because it's Ukraine right now but it could be other countries and where are the countries and that's why this world order has to be more just. Oh, we appreciate the calls for Zelensky using Ukraine as a model but I also appreciate your sensitivity of what you're sharing today because really every day of war means hundreds of lives are lost lives of your country's best and brightest and that's something that the right to protect and the other new examples that people are engaging in have to be done because every day we don't act too many people die who are innocent who've done nothing who just want what the UN Charter was created to end the scourge of war so I really appreciate you raising that point of what needs to be done and the urgency of it as well. Yeah, absolutely and there was one more thing I wanted to raise is that Ukraine in a way the reason of this war is because Ukraine in Ukrainian people they are a part of Europe and they wanna be part of Europe and Russia is an old-time empire is trying to stop Ukraine and the people to choose their own future and to being a part of Europe that's what's happening 2014 that's happening right now and the result that we have is that today the European Commission has approved the decision that Ukraine is becoming a candidate to join the European Union. That's not of course yet the membership but it's the status of the candidate of European Union, the one which Ukraine was aspiring for many years to be honest and right now this is the gesture that the European Union, the country's European Union has provided to Ukraine is very important and it gives like an inspiration for people in Ukraine for those who are fighting against Russia that they have this perspective for their children so they will have a future which is different from all Russia and from all of that and that's why they will have inspiration to fight for the independence of Ukraine and for the right of Ukraine to choose the future where it belongs. No, those are great points and it's building on just the visit of German Chancellor Olaf Scholz and French President Emmanuel Macron as well as the Italian Prime Minister and that's what's so important because now at least it sets up as you said, complying with the Copenhagen criteria and then moving forward to make sure that as Zelensky often says they're fighting for European and really universal values such as human rights and rule of law, inclusive democracy where everyone can have their rights respected and protected. So that's quite crucial as we move forward and I think you said it's a new chapter in a way building on the legacy of the UN Charter but really looking at important aspect of regional cooperation and how we can go forward. Yeah, absolutely in your right. And that's why, yeah, it's not only Ukraine today, I think Moldova has gotten these status which is also absolutely right thing to do because they are our neighbors and they also have problem with Russia, Kospat or the Moldova territory, the Transnistria region has been occupied by Russian forces since 1990 and they are also threatening Ukraine from the Western side. And being kind of together in this means that with those countries, Ukraine and Moldova and the other ones have, we have just a different historical trajectory of development and when this war stops and we believe it should start soon, a lot of rebuilding efforts will be needed but then there will be a different, I mean a new nation of Ukrainian people who will be like, who are example of resistance for the freedom in the world right now. But there will be a member of a new world where such things as war should not exist. That's a beautiful point and it's also great to see how inspiring it is for the Ukrainian people to stand up. We now even see Russian journalist, Dmitry Morotov, he auctioned off his Nobel Peace Prize medal just on Monday this week for a stunning 1.3.5 million and the funds are going straight to UNICEF to provide aid for Ukrainian children. And he of course with the Novoia Gazeta was an independent publication in East fighting for those human rights you're talking about inside Russia so that Russia could then not be able to take out its actions against neighbors. So it's an important part of if you have human rights in the country and democracy then governments can't take actions lying to their own people. And this is one aspect of solidarity where everyone's realizing these basic rights bring us all together. And those were enshrined for the first time in San Francisco where you're based now. Absolutely, yeah, we just need more people like him in Russia to do such things and to demonstrate to the world that not everyone there supports the war because there are a lot of people there to be honest but not everyone. And these examples are bright, those are needed to the world and this should show to the people in Russia that you have to not, you cannot allow the Putin to rule you anymore and have like continued to wage this war. You have to stop it. It's true. And then you also brought up some good points about the major reforms in the UN that while we're celebrating the 77th anniversary and there hasn't been a world war there are attempts such as the right to protect also the initiative by the countries to focus on the use of the veto and have to defend that, right? That was an initiative by one of the members recently but I think Zelensky's call for standing up for these international order rooted in law is absolutely essential as we move forward and hopefully by the 78th or the 80th session that we celebrate in San Francisco together we would see those important changes in the international institutions of the UN. Yeah, exactly. So there can be different scenarios of this reform like including more countries as the permanent members like I don't know Germany, Turkey and the Korea and many other countries who deserve to be by Brazil for example, right? Or actually like key players in the world and also just to change the way how the veto powers use or just take this veto power away from those who are participants of the international military district and that will create the possibility for United Nations to take decisions and to act and to finally preserve the peace the purpose which it was created for in 1945 here in San Francisco. Thank you so much. And we can all appreciate the spirit of San Francisco of the UN Charter that for the first time for seven spaces in that UN Charter talked about the rights of all people and the right of self-determination and that we can continue that spirit today and make sure that it's not extinguished in Ukraine and that the wonderful people standing up throughout the world and inspired by the people of Ukraine can demand dignity and equality for all. Thank you for joining me. Aloha. Thank you. Thank you very much. It was a great conversation. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.