 As-salamu alaykum my dear respected viewers, in the name of Allah, the beneficent, the merciful. Thank you for joining us again for the second part of this special two-part episode, in which we are discussing and examining the model of governance established by one of the epidemies of divine justice on Earth, Imam Ali ibn Abi Ta'ali, peace be upon him. In the previous episode, we began to discuss his role in modeling the best kind of governance, and his role as a political leader by looking at his own theory of leadership. In this episode, we will examine in greater detail his specific qualities, which he demonstrated as necessities for effective leadership, and how he recommended dealing with a wide range of different issues and areas of government. Likewise, we will explore what lessons we can extract from his political and economic theory and methodology that can be applied in our societies today. Joining me again is Dr. Hassan Abbas, an academic and a professor at a university in Washington D.C. As-salamu alaykum Dr. Hassan Abbas. Thank you very much. It is a distinct player for me to be here. It's a spiritual time and a spiritual city, and I couldn't expect anything more. Thank you so much, Dr. Abbas. For the first question, among the qualities of an effective leader, which Ameer al-Mumineen Ali ibn Abi Ta'ali possesses, are issues like considering God and actions, good duties towards people controlling oneself, deliberate decision-making, consultation, companionship, and forgiveness? How do these characteristics contribute to a wise leadership? Thank you for this important question. Some of the points I've already mentioned earlier. So I'll go to some examples, how Imam Ali, when he became the caliph, what was the criterion with which answers some of these questions. Especially I will draw some lessons from the letter he wrote to Malik Ibn Ashtar, because that is the best example. There were four principal messages to Malik Ibn Ashtar when he was appointed as the governor. Number one was show religious tolerance. This was the first message. And I'm quoting directly from Nehjul Balagh and especially from the letter to Malik Ibn Ashtar. Imam had said that among the people that you will rule, there are two kinds of people. Either they are your brother in your religion or they are similar to you in creation, which means if they are not Muslims and your brothers in religious terms, they're at least human beings and you have that human bonding and human brotherhood. So be equal to both of them. No one has a preference over the other, because they are both your subjects. So religious tolerance was his first message. Second was patience and forbearance. That in policies that you will implement, these policies cannot be implemented in one day. You have to be slow but very cautious in step by step implementation. And you have to show patience so that some of your policies get implemented and get mature over a period of time. His third message in the letter to Malik Ibn Ashtar was creating cohesion that through policies, you are diminishing the differences between different tribalism, between different status or between difference among people in terms of their economic well-being. Somebody is rich, somebody is middle class, somebody is poor. His responsibility was it has to be creating cohesion. And last but not the least message was welfare of the people is that you always have to be a top priority. Whether it is about their economic well-being, whether they are in the mosque. I'll give you an example. I'm originally from South Asian Pakistan. I have seen many mosques in everywhere in the world, where elite will go and stand in the first row in a prayer room. It's a simple example. But that again is directly in contradiction of the Islamic principles. In the place of God, there is no preference anyone has over the other that someone will sit on a beautiful chair and the other one will sit on the carpet. And this was again, this is not my message. I'm just reflecting the message of Imam Ali through Malik Ibn Ashtar that welfare of the people and equality of the people is one of the central messages. So I think these are the four principle messages which cover all the issues that you had raised. Thank you, Dr. Abbas. Now, there are some insights and the teachings of Imam Ali, Amir-ul-Muminin peace be upon him that primarily focus on respect to the majority, meritocracy, planning, predictability, employing elites and fighting corruption. What are the importance of these principles of administration? I think the most important of all these relate to the idea of justice. Because a just government takes care of all of these issues. So the first issue is about tyranny. And I'll give you a couple of examples of what Imam Ali had said. Imam Ali had said that if you will abandon equity and justice, then the system will lead to tyranny and oppression. So the idea of justice, and this is very, very relevant to today's world, anywhere in the world where you will see injustice, inequality and tyranny, you'll find that the cause behind that tyranny and imposition of one view is linked because linked to the idea of lack of justice and equity. So that was justice is a very important idea in that sense. Secondly, Imam Ali had mentioned, somebody had asked him, that what is the difference between a just order and total chaos? And Imam Ali and I am quoting, looking at the quotation, Imam Ali had said, no individual or nation can lose direction and fail to succeed if their worldview and policies are rest upon truth and justice. So that the idea of justice, now one is a conceptual issue that the leader is looking at everyone in an equal fashion. And the second idea is the judicial system. The judicial system means judges, and it's amazing how Imam Ali had given details about who are the people or who are the persons who can become judges. And he gave exact criterion for judges. For example, in the letter to Manikam Naishta, there is a detailed one page which mentions qualifications of appointment as a judge. And I'll just briefly read some of those. Imam had said that a judge has to be of excellent character. His records have to be very high. And then he had mentioned that a judge should not be given too many cases in court. Because maybe he will come under pressure, he will get overwhelmed. And the cases are very complex and he may lose his temper. The second mention he had mentioned, always when a judge gives a decision, there has to be an appeals process. So that maybe one judge was not in a good mood that day. Maybe he was not knowledgeable about a certain issue. Maybe he had a bias against the person about whom he was given a judgment. There always has to be an appeal system. Now in today's world, this sounds very logical. But think about it, 1400 years ago, no state or no empire, I should say, at that time had any strong functional system of justice. Yes, Romans had and Imam Ali, of course, improved upon the Roman system of justice as well. But his system of justice was so detailed and intricate about qualifications of a judge, rules of business in a court of law, what are the principles of criminal justice system. Imam had very clearly said, judges should have high resources so they are not involved in corruption and in mismanagement of money. So these are the issues. I think each of the points that you mentioned require a detailed answer, but I'll restrict my answer to the whole issue of judiciary. One last thing that I would mention here is Imam Ali was asked that what are the responsibilities of a judge and his quotation I'll close with this. Imam had said, if a judge is presented with a case, he has no right to play host to one party while the other party is not there. It means that if a person has brought a case to the judge, a judge cannot decide upon that case without hearing the other party. So a decision has to be given only when both the parties are prevalent. Before Imam Ali's this idea, this was not the norm. So Imam Ali gave a lot of importance to establishing the system of justice and that was the core idea behind his governance model. Let's go to the economic issues. The Imam's letter to Malik and Ashdur, whom was appointed as the governor of Egypt, emphasizes on the priority of taxation. As taxation and development are among the important elements of good governance, how do you understand Imam Ali's call to the priority of taxation? I think, and this is also a topic I briefly mentioned about earlier. The idea of taxation was that the priority is given to those people who own land and who are producing agriculture output because if the food item, there's abundance of food items, then people can focus more on, for example, in their military also. They can focus more on issues of religion as well. So his focus was on economic equality and economic opportunity. Imam had at one point mentioned in that letter to Malik and Ashdur, a very interesting statement. He had said that a person's concern with developing the land should be greater than the concern for collecting taxes. That the government should be more concerned about creating more economic opportunities rather than looking everywhere for collecting more money because state is not supposed to be all about collecting taxes against people's will. It has to create opportunities so that people have enough that they can provide state so that state can function. As I mentioned previously about hoarding and black marketing, that was one of the strongest things he opposed. And one of the very important ideas about tax collection was that, as I previously mentioned, that Imam had emphasized. And this is a very modern idea in the Western world, that you don't harass the people who have to give you taxes. At the time of Imam Ali, when state had very few resources, this was a very unique thing. When Imam said, knock at the door, request a person, move outside the house, then politely mention to them that we think this is the amount of money you owe us. If that person has a counter argument and he says, no, there's a different amount, except that person's estimate. So that tells us about the importance of economic activity and economic equality of Imam Ali. Dr. Abbas, the United Nations Development Program, and its 2002 Arab Human Development Report, listed six sayings of Imam Ali Peace be upon him about ideal governance. Would you please remind us of these teachings? Certainly, there are six points those were made in that Human Development Report. And I'll explain with some of the quotations from Imam Ali to substantiate that. This was an important report. This was prepared by many scholars and human rights activists from the Arab world. There were two reports, Human Development Report 1 and 2. And these were critical because this was the first time when this was realized by many scholars and experts from the Arab world that all was not well. There was incompetence. There was corruption. That was poor planning. And when they were asked by the United Nations, please tell us what are the sources of good governance in Islam. They picked some of these quotations. And so this was not something which was proposed by a group of Shia or Sunni. This is a group of Muslim experts. So this is very important. These are the topics which are recognized by all Muslims. The first point in that report was the quotation from Imam Ali, which says that a leader is supposed to be educated and well-trained and well-prepared for the job before that person's take up the job. Now this is very important because in many cases leaders try to become leader through rhetoric, through political sloganeering, through some support base and certain constituencies. But when it comes to actual governance, they're not very good at it because they learn while they operate as head of the state or as a minister or as a senior official. Imam's recommendation and actually direct instruction is no, if you want to be a leader, you have to be well-educated. You don't try to get educated while after becoming the leader. You have to be educated to be capable or to be, I would argue, this is a requisite requirement. Unless you are educated, you cannot be considered to be a leader. So that is number one. The second point was, in case of first point, I'll just add one more thing. This tells us about a major Islamic principle as well. Your qualification to become a leader is directly linked with your knowledge, with your education, and with your capability. Your capability, if you are a tribal leader, that is not good enough to be a leader of a Muslim state. If you are a very good speaker, that alone, or if you are a person who has a lot of support base, that is not sufficient to be a leader. To be a good leader, you have to be knowledgeable, you have to be educated, you have to be competent. The second point is also linked to this. The second qualification is that you have to ensure that you are surrounded by wise and capable people. And this idea is very similar to the modern day idea of think tax, which in many Western countries we know that political leaders and government leaders depend a lot on scholars from academia, from policy centers. This is very much the case actually in United Kingdom, in United States, in France, in Germany, where experts and scholars are the ones who provide feedback, who provide input to the political leaders. Imam Ali was saying 1400 years ago that a leader should surround himself with wise and scholarly people. I think this is a very, very important recognition in that regard. As regards the third important thing in this regard is that Imam Ali had mentioned that if you are a leader and if you are asked a question about a certain policy or about a certain issue, you should only respond if you are knowledgeable about it. If you don't have the requisite information, this is fine to say that I will get the right information and talk to you. This reminds me of various cases in Western countries where leaders are asked to stand in front of their parliaments, in front of their Shura or in front of their consultative bodies and they are asked very tough questions and they are always well prepared, their issues about what is the growth, what is the employment status, what is the performance of different organs of the state. It is on their fingertips. And this is not the case in many, many Muslim countries where the leaders sit as if they are sitting on a throne. They are sitting as if they are the kings and wearing the hat of a king and they think whatever the words they utter from their mouths are the laws. Imam Ali's concept of a leader is not that. His conception of a leader is he's competent, he's well prepared, he's knowledgeable and if he's not aware, he would recognize and acknowledge and say, I'm sorry, I don't know, but I'll make myself aware of this and then I'll report back to you. The fourth point is that Imam Ali, al-Hassan, had very clearly and categorically mentioned that a leader is not supposed to be sitting on a throne as a feeling, as if he's the king. A leader should be modest, a leader should be a person who's not living in a palace. The concept of a leader is different from the conception of kingship or monarchy or a person who's sitting on a throne because these are two different ways of thinking. If you are sitting as a person who's maintaining a life standard which is the life standard of an ordinary person because that is the only way you remain connected with the ordinary people, rather than somebody who's out of touch, who's not even directly in contact with the people and who thinks in a different kingly way. Imam Ali's conception is more of a leader who's a scholar, who's a soldier, who's a leader, but who's ready to go to the lowest level and be able to communicate with them. The fifth point of Imam Ali was related to the team that a person, a leader has to build and that team of whether it is about judges, whether it is about police or whether it is about law enforcement, that those selections have to be totally and completely based on merit. It is not based on tribal affiliation. It is not based on ethnic relationship. It is not based on sectarian relationship. It is based on who so ever is the most capable person who's known for his or her integrity, who is known for competence. That is the criterion. And anyone who will commit any mistakes, yes, always there are possibilities of reform, but if there are charges of corruption and integrity in Imam Ali's conception of leadership, there is absolutely no space for such people. And so the last, but not the least of these issues is as regards sustainability. And I'll quote from what Imam Ali had mentioned in this regard. In Imam Ali's words, a good leader is one who will not persist in wrongdoing if that wrongdoing is exposed. A leader is a person who will not hesitate to pursue the right path once he knows it. And then there is no greed in the heart of that leader. Often we see that the leaders get special perks for themselves. The leader in the eyes of Imam Ali is not somebody who has these extra luxuries and extra perks and extra benefits. Imam Ali's leader is somebody who's not above the law. So these were the main six points of Imam Ali, which were hinted briefly in the report, but I expanded on these based on my understanding and reading from Najil Balagh and from other quotations of Imam Ali that I collected from so many different sources. The sources for these quotations are from the books that were published in Iraq, in Iran, even in Saudi Arabia. I was able to get a book right if you come out of the Haram in Mecca. I found a small bookstore and there was a PhD thesis and a Saudi student had done on Imam Ali. I use that as a resource as well. Okay. Thank you so much, doctor. For the last question, do you think that Muslim leaders and governments obey what Amir al-Mumin, Ali ibn Abi Ta'ala, peace be upon him, defined as political leadership and good governance? I think the Muslim world is facing serious challenges of leadership. There is absence of good leadership by and large. Yes, in certain cases, in some institutions of religion, in some institution of politics, in some cases of military, there are good leaders across the Muslim world in various countries from Iraq and Iran to Saudi Arabia, to Iraq, Pakistan, even Afghanistan, Indonesia. There are some good people in all the countries who are playing good role. However, the top leadership, I am very, I am sad to report that in my understanding, I cannot even name one Muslim leader who I would say is living according to the standards set by Imam Ali because his standards were, no leader is above the law. In many Muslim countries, I see leaders who think everyone else should follow law, but they have no law to follow. There are extra privileges. I have traveled in many countries. There are 10 security guards and 10 security guards in front of you. The leaders are totally cut off from their society. An ordinary person cannot go and approach a leader. That's not the concept of leadership. And then there is the biggest issue of corruption. If you just have to go to the transparency international and just look at the corruption standards in Muslim countries, unfortunately, the many Muslim countries are on the top of that list. In various other countries, and I am immediately thinking of countries like Afghanistan, even Pakistan, Iraq, where corruption is a very, very serious problem. There are these kickbacks and the political leaders know about these people. But they're using these corrupt methods to keep their close ones in important positions. So they are looking the other way. So how are these people different than what was the case of Maviya? I'm sorry, their names of these leaders may sound beautiful and very nice. But if they're acting and operating like Maviya, who had destroyed the essence and spirit of Islam, then these leaders are no different than what Maviya, and even I dare say what Yazid had stood for. The message of Karbala and the message of Imam Ali in terms of good governance, those are very important messages which have a very long life and a long, long consequences for the Muslims. I don't see a broader range of Muslim leaders following such principles, and this is no secret. Go to any major Muslim countries, and what I'm saying is relevant to most countries. There's some exceptions. In most Muslim countries, ask people about their leader, and unless it is an authoritarian state where people are scared to say anything against the leaders, people will tell you on the street what they think of their leaders, and you will find abuses, you will find strong derogatory words. This is not a concept. A Muslim leader has to be popular not because he has power and he has image building skills and tools. A leader has to be popular because his heart is with the humanity because he's doing things for education, for judicial issues, for basic employment, which is helping the very of the poor people. You pick Imam Ali's works, and I would argue pick any of the statements from our great prophet, Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. You will see a consistent pattern, well-being of the people, well-being of the people, which is the true concept of a welfare state. I can't pick any Muslim country which is doing welfare of the people. Some countries in the Arab world do welfare of the people when they feel their regimes and their monarchies are about to roll. When they feel they'll push back, they rather go out and attack other Muslim countries just because they can become popular and misuse resources of the state. That is exact opposite of what Imam Ali and what the real message of Islam is. Thank you so much, Dr. Hassan Abbas, an academic from Washington, D.C. Thank you so much. It is a great player and honor, and I wish the best of luck to Imam Hussain T.V. Dear viewers, we have reached the second and final episode of the series of the governance of Imam Ali, peace be upon him. We wish to see you next time on Colonel Vence. Wassalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Wa-la-la-la-la.