 apparently. All right, so thank you very much everybody for tuning in. My name is Troy McCann and I'm the founder of Moonshot, an international engine for space startups. And so today we've got a very special Q&A session with some really amazing people who are the architects behind the new Australian Space Agency that you may have heard of. So these people are just a few almost half of the group that were tasked with advising the Australian federal government on the future global space industry and has now resulted in the government committing to a federal space agency essentially for the 21st century. So before we get started, I'd just like to give thanks to Tomorrow, that's spelled T-M-R-O. So Tomorrow is a weekly live webinar getting people excited about space exploration. And they'd really love for people to join their conversation in their vibrant community on Saturdays at 6 p.m. UTC time. So if you're excited about humanity, space and science future, which I hope that some of you are, be sure to subscribe to the channel, one of the buttons just down below on YouTube. So I'll give you an introduction into some of these amazing people who formed the expert reference group for Australia's new space industry. I'll start off with Dr. Jason Heldt, who is the CEO of Saber Astronautics, the space research and development company that combines the latest techniques from human factors, artificial intelligence, and dynamic 3D data visualization to dramatically reduce the cost of space operations. So picture the future of space mission operations software. We've also got Professor Stephen Freeland, who is the Dean of the School of Law and a Professor of International Law at Western Sydney University. He's authored approximately 300 publications on various aspects of international law and is a Director of the Paris-based International Institute of Space Law. Yes, space law and a member of the Space Law Committee of the London-based International Law Association. And I'm also very pleased to introduce you to Dr. Megan Clark, who is the former head of the CSIRO here in Australia and was just a couple of weeks ago named head of the Australian Space Agency. She was also the chair of the expert reference group that I've mentioned and has recently set the goal of tripling Australia's space industry by 2030 to 10 to 12 billion Australian dollars. Now, I will take this opportunity to give a little bit of an advertisement to ourselves here at Moonshot. We've just formed a new partnership with a group called Start Mate, who are Australia's most successful tech accelerator. And so together, we're looking over the next week, so applications close in seven days to bring the most high-caliber space startups to Australia as we're building a new industry. We're going to run them through a rigorous three-month space acceleration program specifically to address the needs of space startups. So you've got seven days. You can check it out on our website and go for it. So this Q&A session is going to be very interactive. For those of you who are just watching, you may not realize that you can actually ask questions through social media. This is a platform for the members of the expert reference group to talk to the public and for the public to ask them questions. So I will get started with the first question, but please be aware that you can talk on YouTube, on Twitch, on Twitter. We'll be monitoring the fees just here. So I'm going to start with a question for each of you. We'll start with Jason and then we'll go through. What does the future space industry look like to you? As an industry as a whole, I think what we're looking at is we're in the first third of what looks like a 10-year disruption in the small satellite market. Small satellites being CubeSats to MicroSats. The start of the CubeSats in the next five years is going to be looking at MicroSats emerging as the de facto standard that people try and solve problems out of low Earth orbit. I think it's going to be like that for a while. And then 10 years from now you're looking at a couple of possible things that whenever you look into the future you have to put this filter. Is it really going to happen or isn't it? In the further out you go, the less certain you are, but 3D printing on orbit, launch using space planes. Those are the two kind of technologies that I think are game changers. The 3D printing on orbit is happening already, but once you could 3D print a satellite then you reduce the cost of your mission down from $150,000 to $250,000 like it is now down to about $10,000-$15,000 per satellite. That's going to be a fundamental change in the way you do space. And major problems that come from the volume that increases for the amount of spacecraft we have. How do you manage all those assets in space? And then how do you manage the regulatory and then how do you manage the fact that you've got a lot of different companies and acting together that are trying to both collaborate in some cases, compete in others in solving these problems. And now we're getting a little bit more sci-fi. What I'm hoping to see are more missions to the moon, more missions to Mars, some of the exciting things that we all want to do, asteroid mining, all those kind of fun things. Not necessarily commercial at this point, but the further out we go and the more use cases we have for the satellites that are in orbit today, the more need we have for some of the resources that are further out in the solar system. So grand picture space industry, that's kind of how I see it. Fantastic. Thank you, Jason. We'll go next to Professor Freeland. Okay. Oh, I'll say in question. Sorry, I thought you were just asking. All of the things that Jason was talking about make perfect sense. I mean, I'm not a scientist or an engineer, so I listened to that in a war. But clearly, if you look at the way that the technology has changed since Sputnik, since the outer space treaty, but even in the last five years, clearly we, looking at the crystal ball into the future is very difficult. But all of the things that Jason talked about and probably more are most likely to happen. And that then gives rise to a whole range of regulatory and legal questions and policy questions and political questions, which are the areas that I'm perhaps a bit more able to speak about rather than the technical side. And these are difficult issues. A lot of people have said that the regulation of space at the international geopolitical level and even at the national level, the regulation of space has stood still while all of these things have happened and that therefore the law, the regulation, our ability to be able to monitor what's happening is creaking at the edges. And I don't necessarily necessarily subscribe to that. I think all of these things that Jason is talking about represents great challenges in terms of how we're going to monitor and regulate. But there are also opportunities. And the fact of the matter is with all of the technological change that we've had, the regulatory framework has worked reasonably well. We now need to sit down and talk about how we move into the future as we're doing all these things. And clearly at the international level that's happening, although things don't move very quickly. But I'm actually quite optimistic that the law is never going to catch up to the regulation and nor should it in one sense because law sometimes can be a bit of an inhibitor. On the other hand, as things move forward, we've all got to keep in mind that there are some bigger questions in mind. The sustainability of space, the environment of space, the fact that space has to be maintained for peaceful purposes and not turned into some war domain as we've heard in various political areas of late. And so the scientists and the engineers and the technical people and the policy people and the government people and the legal people essentially will all have to sit down in the same room at some point and start to understand more and more this complete complexity and interaction that all of these different disciplines have the space. But I think that will happen because people are realizing and have realized how incredible space is. What a great opportunity this is for Australia. It's for Australia to even propel itself more into this opportunity. But we have to be a little bit circumspect about where the priorities are. And I think that's the challenge in terms of all these fantastic technologies that Jason talks about. The challenge is trying to work out priorities not just from the individual entrepreneurs viewpoint, but really from a broader network. What is the best thing for the Australian industry? And where should the energies be devoted? And how do the regulators in the international community look at that and try to work out, well, where is it that we should be devoting our energy and resources? But I think the landscape will change dramatically. But I think we're ready for it. And I think we'll cope for it. And we're all resilient and we all recognize the challenges. And let's go. It's a great opportunity. Troy, you're on mute. I keep doing that. Thank you very much. Megan, now you're in a very unique position because you have the very tough task of, I guess, executing the very beginnings of this modern agency for a future space industry. So what does a future space industry look like to you? Well, for the first thing, Australia is going to be part of that future. And that's a really positive thing. We have the capacity and capability to step up. And now with this first step of getting a space agency, we can really start to step up and take our place. If we then step back and look at what that future might look like, and as Stephen said, where you might want to focus, we know now that we use space as part of communication networks, which we don't really use it much for voice anymore. But where it will really come into the future will be in the data area. And of course, space has the capacity to really lift that bandwidth as we move from radio to radio and optic combination, and perhaps even optics and free laser back down to earth. That future is always dying to emerge. We just saw a test recently by the German space agency with an industry partner where they did a lab to a mountain and did 30 terabits a second. That's pretty big. And you can see that space will be part of that. So I see in the communications area space a part of a kind of node, if you like, through all communication networks. We also look at space in just, we forget, just knowing where we are in the GPS network and how much that underpins. So the Australian government recently have put in 260 million to lift Australia from where it was, which was behind the world. We were behind many of the advanced nations in our accuracy. And now that will move to 10 centimetre accuracy across all of our terrestrial areas, all of our maritime jurisdiction and all of our airspace, and to three centimetre accuracy with using the mobile network in the cities, which can underpin then the automation, certainly driverless cars in the cities and automation throughout the rest of Australia plus its air and sea jurisdictions. That kind of infrastructure from space is going to really allow us to just go to a whole new level of automation. And as Jason outlined, and Stephen also commented, there needs to be responsible citizens in space. We've got, you know, over 18,000 pieces of debris in space. And I think that's one area, Australia's a little country, but it's one area where Australia can step up and be a responsible citizen in the future. And we will need that. So both the legal and regulatory framework and players stepping up to help navigate and make space safe and also make it secure. And then there's also, as Jason touched on, there is all sorts of exciting areas, such as the new propulsion technologies both into space and on orbit. We've got, if you like, the lowering the definition of space. So now as we look at the low earth orbit areas and how that's going to completely transform, even improve the latency of communication down to high altitude platforms. And as we sort of come down and get almost down to commercial airspace. So there are just some extraordinary things that Australia will take its place in the future. And we haven't been doing that in the last few decades. Great to hear. Okay, so we're getting a lot of great questions rolling in. But I do want to ask you one, to all of you, but I'll start with you, Megan, because one of the things that you just mentioned, or there's a few of the things that you just mentioned about what are the benefits of space technology to us here today. One of the difficult parts of that is, how do we actually, how do we communicate that to the public and what actually resonates with them? So how does, how is the Australian Space Agency planning to engage with the Australian public? This is from Michael Page from Perth. And you use the example for example. So with SBAS, we're going to have GPS accuracy down to 20 centimeters or three centimeters. But what does that really mean? Because there's been articles saying, you know, that means that you'll be able to tell when you're Ubers on the other side of the road. But that's not really a great example. So are we going to improve on that? And what do you say to that? Look, it's a great question and thanks for that coming through. We saw that in the review that of the really five things that the nation wanted, the new Space Agency to do, one of them was inspire the nation with what Australia can do in space and what difference it can make in Australia's lives. So I think whilst we're absolutely focused on the purpose of growing the Australian space industry and transforming that industry, we know we will be successful if Australians really feel inspired. So that will be such an important part and we will work really hard to make sure we inspire Australians, tell them what Australia's doing, bring space. And I think you've seen some fantastic initiatives just in the last few months here in terms of engaging the population and you can see it's responding. So it's a wonderful motivator and certainly will help with educating people in what's possible. Jason, what do you think? Because I've heard you've given some really great analogies in the past, which really helped communicate certain topics. Like the one that I love and I use is for less than the cost of a booze juice franchise, you can start your own space program. So what do you think about the communication aspect of all of this? The communication aspect of what in particular of the missions we're doing today or the ones? Communicating to the public, whether it's in Australia or globally, who don't necessarily see space as this tangible thing and that's still sort of this very out there, you know, 400 miles away at all times. Look, space in Australia has a branding challenge that needs to be solved because space really is ubiquitous to our day-to-day life. I think people generally understand that and I think people generally want to have a space program in Australia. I think that the polls show 70% positive towards what we are doing today and having a space agency. So for me, sure, I've always kind of promoted the idea of us having our own capability that gives us the flexibility as a nation to do some of these projects ourselves. That capability includes the manufacturing sector, which I think we still need and still needs to be argued. I think what's happened is there have been, because space is such a aggressively tech, lubricate kind of a field that everybody loves. I mean, what's the holy trinity of STEM is robots, dinosaurs, and space, right? So we've done some projects that had mass market potentially that people really like to talk about, but there really is an element in Australia where our history has been challenged by people who didn't really have the nation's best interests, certain some business deals that did not succeed and there is a small handful of them, but they had large impact to the decision makers in government who just to get to the point where he said, hey, a space agency is a good idea. They still think in the back of the minds of these old projects and they still say, well, wait a sec, you remember that old thing we tried to do back in like 20 years ago and man, that was a whole scam. We want to go through that again. So on the public side, this is something the public definitely wants to do on the decision maker side. They've taken a huge leap of faith in the community saying, look, all right, we're going to have a space agency. It's going to be a startup space agency which has certain connotations too, which I think are exciting, interesting that we can talk about. But we want to handle this very cautiously and that's why it's a small amount of money now because they want to see what we as a community to do. So at the end of the day, if we want to change the dialogue, it's up to all of us working together to do it. Not just us here, but also the people in the audience who are making their own businesses and their own research and doing some awesome things. And we really do have to have an all of Australia kind of philosophy as we go forward. Great. Thanks very much. Okay. So we've got a question here from Darcy Longworth. So I'm going to direct this question to you, Stephen. And so Darcy asks, what will the role of the Australian Space Agency be in the near, mid and long term? But particularly, how will the regulatory roles be consolidated? So as I understand, there's like 13 or 14 federal departments, I think at the moment that sort of look after the space industry as a whole in Australia. How do you see that sort of unraveling and sort of, I guess, being consolidated into a new Australian Space Agency? That's a great question, Darcy. And obviously I'll defer to Megan with her thoughts as well. But when I had the privilege of working with the government a couple of years ago to begin the process of reviewing out the Space Activities Act, which is the regulatory framework around which licensing takes place in Australia, I had to speak to government departments, a whole range of government departments about how they viewed space. And what became very clear to me at that time was, we think that government has one voice on space, but you realize very quickly that different parts of government view space in different ways. Defense has a particular perspective and industry has a different perspective and finance and foreign affairs, etc. And it was interesting having those discussions. And essentially, government then subsequently getting together and trying to work out through the agency now the common areas where the agency can work with all of these departments. It's difficult because there are so many complexities and different regulatory frameworks, for example, export control, a whole range of other things. It is a challenge and it was certainly something that was raised in submissions, both with the review of the legislation and then with Megan's expert review group, that people were saying, well, where do I go? It's all too hard. I think that is a challenge, but I think it's not a challenge that can't be met. Government now recognizes, I think, and they certainly send off very positive signals to this effect, that law regulation can't be an inhibitor. It must allow, it must be a facilitator. Always though, in the context of, as Megan said, Australia still has to remain a good global citizen. It has to still encourage responsible behavior. But I think the idea that we've got 14 disparate departments or whatever the number is now thinking about space in different ways, I think that has changed. Previously, as Jason said, I often, all of us go around the country giving talks about space and they're always packed. People had this thirst and so the imagination of the Australian population is now being captured by the announcements of the agency and Megan's appointment. But I often gave give talks about challenges. And one of the big challenges about space was, as Jason said, convincing decision makers that space was really important. I think they are now convinced through the work of so many people and so much expertise that's now apparent in Australia. And I think moving forward, the regulatory side, it's crucial, it's important. But I think people and government will look at it in a way that is there to help, subject to the caveats of responsible behavior, is there to help and facilitate the broad range of industry that Jason's referred to. It won't be perfect. It never is. There are lots of complexities, but I think it's certainly moving in the right direction. So I'm very, again, very positive about the way the government is moving forward on the regulatory side. We all wish it would be quicker. But of course, these are difficult decisions. The questions that the government here is asking are the same questions that virtually every country in the world is asking themselves about space. Their solutions and the way they look at it will be different depending upon the goals and risk profiles of each country. But the questions are all the same. And I think the Australian government has asked all the right questions and hopefully now with the establishment of the agency and other initiatives, we're moving forward in the right way. Right. So I'll hand over to Megan. What do you think, what will be the role of the Australian Space Agency in the near, medium and long-term future? And if I can add to that, what do you think your job will look like on July 1? E-mails, endless emails? No, it's very exciting. But the purpose of the Australian Space Agency is to transform and grow Australia's space industry. And absolutely key to that is the international and national engagement. So the agency needs to open the door so that our industry from start-up, small, all the way through to the major players can walk through that door. I've been involved in a lot of things, but I've never been involved with the entire country's asked government to step in. That usually doesn't happen. But it was recognised that this is an area where we need government to open that door. So a very, very clear purpose. And this is at a time when space is moving from being predominantly government funded to being in the commercial realm. And so we're late to this party. There's no question. But it's a good time to come in. And so our purpose will mean that the Australian Space Agency will be one of the most industry and commercially focused agencies in the world. And so we might be small, but it's nice to start with a blank piece of paper. As Stephen alluded to, there will be important roles that the agency will need to undertake. So helping, facilitating industry growth. We'll absolutely need to open those international doors. It will need to take the role of, for the first time, having an Australian strategy for civil space. We don't have a national strategy for our civil space or national policy for our civil space. And this is so needed as well. And the regulatory piece, of course, important. And that comes in really two forms. So the first form is making sure that we are adhering to regulations, helping form those regulations. We're lucky to have Stephen Freeland in this country, so that we're forming our own regulations. And we're also making sure we're meeting our obligations with our partners in international. And we're helping set those laws. The second part is how on earth do you help a little company that's a startup that's trying to get something out in space and maybe has five people that is chasing down funding? How do you help them navigate through all these? So we had literally an example just last week. And I'm not going to name the agency, but someone emailed me and said, I've been asked by a certain government agency that I'm seeking a rebate to explain why I didn't launch my satellite from Australia. Can you write to them and tell them that I can't do that from Australia? I have to do that somewhere else. These are really simple things. And so I see the agency is having those two hats which are separate and must remain separate. But we have to help our industry. If we do that, that will be an opportunity for Australia because others will see that. And hopefully, that will attract them to Australia. Great. So you've hit one of my trigger points. So Conrad Peers of Perth has asked us a question. What kind of support will there be for space startups developing space technologies? And he's used the example of hardware. So I think he's specifically looking at things like satellites and rockets, which traditionally a lot of people have said that Australia will never do that. Well, first of all, shout out to Conrad who has been doing some great leadership in the startup area himself. So nice to chat. The agency's role is not to do what industry does well. So startups need to find their commercial application. They absolutely need to find what's their business niche. But what we can do is help the links between research and business. We can help create the links between small businesses and the international supply chains, which will be important. And of course, we can open the door to joint missions, joint projects with our international partners and that allow some of our smaller companies to be able to test and provide that. That's going to mean that we need to understand what's happening and we need to understand the startup community and what they're doing. And of course, the sort of work that you're doing, Troy, is a critical link into that community so that then we can join those two things together and make sure that we're pulling those companies through into the global supply chain. So nice to hear from Conrad. Great. So Jason, I'm going to bring you into that question as well as someone who has, I guess, the experience of seeing both what it's like to do a space startup in the US having a presence there, having done it here, the hard yards, bootstrapping sabre astronauts here in Australia. What are the things that you think we really need here in Australia to implement to support our startups? And I guess I'm going to lead into a question sort of after this as well. Some people are saying that $26 million may not necessarily be that much money or enough to do much for the first four years. So do we think that we'll be able to implement the support that we need in the near future? Or will that be a more long-term thing? Okay, look, this is a great question because I've got mixed feelings about it. On one hand, I love everything that Megan's talking about, the vision for the space agency. And we have to be aware that she is now the CEO of her own startup. And so I'm well appreciative of the fact that she has to go and find customers herself. I mean, it's the wrong term for the potato. But the mindset and what she has to do is, and the discovery process she has to do is very close to the same. So very supportive of the space agency in general. And Megan, feel free to jump in as well. $26 million is not for the general public. This is for the community because I've said in a lot of meetings like this, I'm with my own kind of come-to-Jesus moment about what it means to run a space company anywhere. The idea of a company is not that you succeed because the government puts money in your hat. The government's job should be to set the conditions so that you can sell. And the job of selling is yours if you're an entrepreneur. It's not the government. It should never be the government's. However, there are a couple of things that should happen. On one hand, the government needs to be a customer. And that's something that we need to see being fairly aggressively discussed amongst the community. On the other hand, we as a community, we as entrepreneurs, we as business people, we as researchers need to provide products and services that the government feels comfortable in buying. Okay. So when you're talking about $160 million SFS project, which is now funded, now the director of that program is going to be asking themselves, who's ready today that I could come to with this money and buy the product off the shelf? And there's not a lot yet. So if you're saying, oh, wow, $26 million, great. Now we could fund, I don't know, 50 seed funded companies. You kind of could if you split it up. But it's bullshit, right? You don't want to do that, right? You want a space agency and you want some funding that does seed and entrepreneurialism and support. But it's got to be you, the entrepreneur, the person, I've always said this for the last 10 years, don't go to the government with an empty hat and say, please fill it. You know what got the space agency? The fact that there are 80 new startups around the country now that weren't there two years ago, that little metric was a deciding factor for a lot of people that said, yeah, we need to tackle this. So all the work that you guys are doing out in the community, the fact that we have a space agency is one of the results of the hard work you're doing. Now, the other side of that coin is how do you sell in a country where we have a habit of not buying and selling from each other? So I'm watching the startups think that they're competing with each other in order to get a very small amount of money. And I'm watching states trying to compete with each other, thinking that they're going to get the small amount of money. And it's the wrong attitude because you're not actually competing with each other. You're competing with Americans. You're competing with people who have an accent like mine, right? And they come to Australia and they say the following. Don't bother buying from these startups out here. I know they're cute but they're small and they might fail. And they've never flown. So why don't you buy my special product? Why don't you buy my special product? It's flown on 20 missions already. Don't bother with your own stuff. Just buy mine. That's what they do. And they own Australia. And that's why companies like yours and mine have had such a hard struggle over the last X number of years to gain revenue, right? And the conditions aren't changing, but it's got to be us that makes that change happen. On the government side, what I'm hoping to see are launch programs, launch opportunities, some with other foreign governments like, I could hear Megan talking about that now, but also some others where we're able to kind of get our own kind of launch rides up to get that experience and build that confidence within our own community to do. And that's how I feel about it. Hope that answers the question. I think I might have overtaken. So. No, no, no. There's never ever talking. Thank you very much. So we've got a question from Rami in Sydney who is asking what thoughts are there towards the role that the new space agency will have for young students and the education program in general? And if I can add a slight twist to that as well, not a twist will outside as well. But one of the, one of the things that I'm most fascinated by when it comes to communicating what space is all about is aspects like space law or the fact that you can be into marketing and go into all these different areas that space still needs as a part of the industry. So I might actually start off by directing that to you, Steven. And, you know, have you, have you got any thoughts or advice on any prospective space lawyers out there? Well, thank you for that. And thank you for the question. When Jason was talking before about all the amazing things that are happening in the technical side, I wanted to butt in and say yes, but space law has also become sexy. And it has, you know, an increasing number. You know, when I first started teaching space law, there were virtually it was not taught and people would, of course, look at you in rather strange ways when you said you were a space lawyer. That still happens to a certain degree, but I think it's changing. I think because for all the reasons that Megan and Jason have said about the idea that there's this momentum of understanding a consciousness that space is more and more ever pervasive in our lives, people realise that, OK, you know, this is so important now we need to have some form of regulation. More and more universities, for example, are teaching space law, not enough yet, but hopefully that will change. I think the idea of is to look at career opportunities as well. And, you know, historically, in the law, in the policy side and the regulatory side at least, which is really the area I can talk about, there's been a perception and probably a reality that there haven't been, if you like, too many opportunities because there haven't been too many entities or entrepreneurs in Australia that have been engaged and need that sort of assistance and expertise. I think things are changing quite dramatically. And I think the interlinking between policy, regulation, law and the way things work and the reasons I said before that people need to understand. You know, I'm now teaching space law to engineers and we're getting engineers to come to our law classes so that people can understand the fundamentals. And I think that's the exciting part. You know, whenever I go and give talks to aerospace engineers, we've got amazing university faculties of aerospace engineers in Australia. You know, you're aware of that as well. Some fantastic people. They are absolutely fascinated by the legal aspects. And then, of course, I learned so much from them about the technical side. And you actually have a really rich conversation. I think that's the opportunity, this recognition that, you know, you can't look at this anymore in silos because it's real, because we have to help real people like Jason, like you, like all the startups, like the established players in a whole range of ways. And to do that properly, you need to understand a lot of different disciplines. And I think that is the future. So if anyone wants to be, quote unquote, a space lawyer, come and study space law with me, of course, but also look at engineering, understand the science of it. I mean, look at all of the different aspects of how space works, do a fundamental understanding of physics. And then you'll begin to realise how valuable you can be as you put all that together. Again, you know, I think we need to rethink, and that's something I'm working a lot on and others are, I know as well, we need to rethink the way we teach at universities, where you've got disciplines that need to coalesce. And all universities now are talking about multi-disciplinary courses. Well, this is an area that is absolutely prime for that, you know, get all the engineers together with the lawyers and the policy people, and you'll actually come up with really interesting solutions. Yeah, that's right. I love all of that. One of the ways that I describe space is that it's not really about the rockets and satellites, but it's really that intersection of where science and entrepreneurship and technology come together as humanity is searching for a more abundant future, which adds this highly inspirational aspect to a much broader range of things. So for sure, yeah. Megan, in terms of the space agency, what do you foresee being developed in the area of education and that outreach side of things? Well, first of all, I think we look to the future and what we do in space, we will do on earth and what we do on earth, we will now need to do in space. And that completely opens up the jobs and potential for 40 years, Australia's been advising NASA on how you operate in harsh remote environments because we've had bases in Antarctica. We're going to have to figure out how the genetics will change, the epigenetics will change for Mars missions. We're going to have to figure out how we operate. We've already had a food company approach us and say, you know, gee, food in space, we need to improve what we do in remote areas. So Australia is a really lovely partner in this because we operate in many remote areas and we have that link. So I think it's extremely broad. And then the education piece we're already grappling. So even even while we're busy doing what we need to do, we've got some little skunkworks going on. So how do we get on the desk of every single student in this country, you know, some augmented reality that allows them to see, you know, what we're putting up in space and what's happening. So we're starting to think, how do we get not just a one or two schools, but how do we use, you know, smartphone technology to get to every desk. And we're thinking about those things we certainly don't have or the answer to a lot going on at the moment, but it's absolutely in our mind to open those opportunities and allow people to see what's possible. Personally, I have always thought that students are way smarter than the people design the courses because they figure out the future intuitively. And they make those decisions about where they want to go. So I'm completely confident in the ability of the students to see the future and make the right choices. We do however need to make sure that our training structures and the things that are put in place allow that to happen. And all of us are going to have to learn to work alongside a robot just as the first astronauts needed to figure out how to do that in the International Space Station. So what we do in space, we'll be doing it on Earth. That's great. So I'm going to merge a few different things into one now. So I'm just talking about education and the importance of having inspiration, I guess, as a big part of that. So we've got a question from Sasha Bellamy on YouTube who said, well, the broad commercial and international focus of the agency required two legal teams to advise and facilitate those two distinct legal aspects, so commercial and international. I'm also going to bring in the question from Ashley Hill who says, what are your thoughts on the Moon Treaty if Australia should withdraw? And then bring in the aspect that Australia is, we've got amazing technology to do with mining. And I myself, we've had companies from around the world contacting us for a number of years saying, can you introduce us to someone at BHP or Woodside? Because I've got technology we'd love to license. I'm going to let you guys jump in. And what do you think about those three things? Let's start with Steven. Okay, thank you. Well, the Moon Treaty. So for those of you who aren't aware, there are a number of fundamental treaties that were negotiated through a UN process. And one of them is we know lovingly as the Moon Agreement. And that has only got a relatively small number of states that have ratified it. Australia is one of them, there are only 18. And none of, even though we will become a significant space power, but none of the major space powers that you would think of are at the moment parties to that treaty. But that treaty addresses the question, one of the questions that Jason and Megan referred to before, and you also mentioned your question, this notion of off-earth mining. That question, that treaty addresses the fronting centre. And for a whole lot of geopolitical reasons and ideological reasons going back to the nascent development of former colonies into independent countries and the fact that there were these notions of the haves and the have-nots in terms of space resources. For a whole lot of reasons in the late 70s, early 80s, that treaty wasn't very popular. But it addresses front and centre the issues. And rather than, although people will disagree with me, rather than Australia withdrawing from it, I think Australia can, without imposing on other countries the way they want to run it, they can at least point to it as a starting point model. We might in the end move well away from it in terms of the way ultimately we regulate this off-earth mining, but it's an interesting model to at least look at. And Australia, to withdraw from that, I think would be a very negative signal about the way Australia perceives space. I think it can play a role and at the recent United Nations Committee on Peaceful Uses about the space that I had the honour of attending for Australia. This issue came up quite a lot in the states who were parties to that treaty got together and there were some discussions. In terms of Sasha's question, hi, Sasha. Sasha is a former student of space war at my university and now is very, very well respected in the Department of Defence. In terms of Sasha's question about how do you divide the, you know, do you need two sets of legal entities or regulation? I think not. I mean, I think historically we've talked about the international, global, cooperative space ventures. We've talked about civil. We've talked about military space activities. The reality is that they're now coalescing themselves and it's a bit artificial to try to silo civil activities from defence active, from military activities. Of course, the agency will concentrate on the civil side, but as everybody knows in Australia, but in most countries, the biggest spend on space is by military, is in relation to the relative defence departments or whatever. So space is, it's a complex thing and you now find that the military capability of various countries because space assets are an important part of security and all of that. The military are now customers of the commercial and the civil and that's happening in Australia, but that's happening everywhere. And so in the end, the legal framework that we have, it would be artificial to try to divide. Obviously, different people have different responsibilities about the way that those assets are utilised. So I think we need to look in a holistic way in terms of the regulatory framework rather than trying to divide the way we regulate. Because in the end, if you divide, you're going to have conflicts in a situation where the activity itself overarches both sides of that. And so I think we have to see space for what it is. It's complex, different aspects are looking at using the same assets in different ways. We have what we call now dual use assets where the same assets are used for civil, for commercial and for military insecurity. And we just have to work out the legal frameworks that allow for that to happen while still encouraging responsible behaviour. I'll leave Megan and Jason to talk about these issues and the other aspect that this brings. Yeah, thanks, Troy. And I think Stephen's certainly discussed some of those areas on the legal side, and I completely agree. It does start to come together. The Moon Treaty, interesting that you raised that, we're literally just talking about that as a team today ahead of the committee on the peaceful use of outer space. Because in terms of building base on the Moon, how do you do that? And these are critical questions and complex questions. So it's a very complex area and one that needs deep, deep consideration by the players. So it will certainly be in those discussions, but the concept and the potential reality of having a platform on the Moon from which to then move elsewhere is a very real one that needs to be considered. In terms of the mining, let me look at that from two aspects. As we go out, I was always and consider where our species will be colonised. What struck me when I looked at the NASA decisions on where the potential landing areas might be for Mars, the most overriding criteria was where water may be able to be mined. And so the very first question, which is so important to our species and the thing that links us to Earth is water. The blue planet running through our veins is still the remnants of the salty sea from which we came. This is the thing that absolutely connects us. And as a species, as we go off our planet, of course, we need to find that very thing that connects us to our blue planet. In terms of mining, it will be looking at those essential elements, how we grow our food, how we take resources and combine them for fuel, etc. So it will be these very basic elements. The good thing is that what we learn of how to do that I think will actually help us back on Earth with what is absolutely precious resources, our own water. How do we get fresh water to the western side of India where the water resources are being challenged by the changes in the climate? So these things that we do off Earth will, I think, come back. Second part in the reverse, when I look at the mining industry today, how is it engaging with space, it's working to say, gee, I need a rover. I need a little rover to do what I need to do on an area that kind of looks a little bit like Mars already. If you go to some northern Australia, how do I do that? How do I use that same technology? I need modular power exactly as we need in space. So the mining industry is looking at modular power. The mining industry is even having questions that were coming through to us were saying we need to understand swarm theory that because we need to manage our remote assets using swarm theory and swarm theory, of course, coming from the sort of work that's been going in aerospace and drones, et cetera. So that industry is looking as well to pull in these developments from space. And as areas are automated, the automated train, for example, in the Pilbara, well, its communication network will be through mobile base stations, but the backup will be space. So these are just examples, again, of, you know, as we go off our own planet, and I think we will look back and learn to love our own planet a little more, the things that we will learn, we will bring back to Earth as well. Great answer. So, Jason, I've got a question that I'll direct to you, and it's from WKD on YouTube, and WKD asks, do you see the importance in developing an Australian-owned launch vehicle or are there enough private launch service providers around the world and in Australia that money would be better spent on developing other areas? Okay, great question, by the way. And I've heard it a few times, and it does tie into kind of the question, is this something that government should spend money on specifically as a national program, or is this a business opportunity that Australian entrepreneurs can dig into? And Australia typically has said no to rockets, no to satellites, because they get their hardware and their services from other countries. And now we have an opportunity to change the discussion. The truth is, because of the, and remember, we're only about a third of the way into the disruption that small satellites is making. So you're seeing a lot of scrambling at this phase of the disruption. So you're seeing a lot of satellites that are launching, you're seeing a lot of mission plans that are being funded, and some of the first satellites out of those mission plans are going up. And what's happened is the launch market head, if the small satellite sector is right now severely constrained, so the cost of launch has gone up, it's like high school economics, you're looking at an example of high school economics, right? So the cost of your launch went up like that, and it has nothing to do with the tech, it has to do with the fact that everybody wants it now. So the answer should we do propulsion, should we do rockets in Australia? The answer is yes, I think we should. Do we have the money in the kitty to do it as a national program, not in the way I think we traditionally see it like a NASA or a Russian space agency kind of thing. But there are some really good commercial programs that have gotten off the ground that have funding at least a series A, and what the space agencies should be doing, tying in with everything that Megan and Stephen had talked about in the last half hours, you got a regulatory framework in Australia that needs to be looked at in order to facilitate the Australian technology giving it a go. And in the future, if the funding is available, then sure, do it. But right now we just need to make it easy for these companies to do it on their own, because the market is definitely there. I'd like to I guess add another element to that more international one, Jason. I hope you don't mind. Draw a connection to what's happening in the United States, where there's a number of private launch providers, you've got SpaceX, Blue Origin and those sort of guys. And you've got the SLS program. And there seems to be a lot of I guess debate around whether that SLS program should be strapped because it's taking a lot of money. And you've got SpaceX's BFR and some other sort of very heavy lifting rockets sort of in the pipeline that it sort of seems to be catching up. What do you think about that? And what is your opinion on that side of things? Awesome question. Look, I mean, the thing is that we got to ask ourselves philosophically, what is a space agency, right? I mean, a space agency's role is to fulfill the national strategic goal. They're the implementation arm of that nation's strategic goals. So if you see it in that light, knowing that NASA has an SLS program that's not as fast as SpaceX or some of these other guys, you realize that one of NASA's major responsibilities is jobs programs for facilities, areas around the country that at the time that it was founded were economically disadvantaged. So the way the United States works is if you try and cut a program, there's a Congress person who sits there who fights the good fight to make sure you could keep the program. And once the money's on the table, it's like taking candy from a baby. There's no way that SLS, I mean, every president that comes on has to deal with it and it just doesn't get killed. And meanwhile, SpaceX is capturing a significant portion of the market because their attack has dropped the price below the launch constraint, right? So right now, companies are scrambling. Big space companies are scrambling. Big space satellite companies are scrambling. Major telcos who used to make these large, multi-billion dollar spacecraft are now coming along. What if we did smaller spacecraft and send up swarms of them? And so now I don't know if that exactly answers your question in terms of how do we handle it in Australia. I do think that the argument of Megan Mays saying we got a blank piece of paper gives us a massive, massive advantage as a country to make this look like something that takes advantages of the new landscape internationally. So let's not talk about the United States. India, China, Russia, typically the cheaper places to go to for launch. Russia is talking about scaling back on their launch opportunities because, quote, we can't compete with SpaceX, right? Virgin orbit, once they're up, is going to be potentially a huge benefit to the small satellite market because they're going to be able to go anywhere, launch anywhere, cheaply from an airstrip, you know? The technology is affecting the cost. The competition, again, is led primarily by the United States, but India, of course, is very cost effective. And does that answer your question? It's kind of like the lay of the land? Yeah, no, it does. Yes, thank you very much. Yeah. So one of the interesting things that I guess has happened in the last couple of weeks since the announcement has happened is there's been a lot of, I guess, competition within the Australian space community, particularly between states. Sort of, I guess, a lot of people saying we should host the Australian space industry, you know, have that HQ for the Australian Space Agency. And I guess I wrote a little bit of an article about this on the Moonshop blog just last week as well about how I see, I guess, every state and territory having a very valuable aspect of the ecosystem. So what, I guess I'll direct this to you, Megan. What do you see happening in the future with regards to, I guess, a very lean agency? Will it be very centralised in just one area? Or can we expect that it will be accessible to all of the major territories in all of the states? Yeah, great question. And one that's quite topical. If you go back to the purpose of the agency, which is, you know, to transform and grow Australia's space industry, also to engage and do that by engaging internationally and nationally and do national coordination and to aspire Australians, the answer in a way falls out. If you're controlling and making sure we're sitting national policy and strategy and you do that at the national level, if we're engaging internationally on behalf of the nation, some of those aspects logically would make sense to do through cameras and close to government. But if the core of your purpose is to grow this space industry, then you need to be absolutely connected on the ground, which is where the action is going to be in the states and territories, where those connections are with industry. So in a way, I think the purpose helps answer that question. So certainly the first job of the agency and literally in the first few weeks of getting up and running in July, the second, second and third weeks of July will be going around to all the states and territories to listen and to understand what it is that they think and want to be able to do in their states. And then the government has asked us to come back and put forward an investment proposal that addresses that very question. So great question and we'll be out there listening because I see as we learn from the review and Jason and Stephen were so much a part of that is we learned that you must listen to the nation and really listen to those opportunities. And then from that position, then you can come to a logical conclusion around what the right structure is and where we put the activity to absolutely deliver on our purpose. Great. Thank you very much, Megan. Simon Jenner on YouTube asks, insurance is a key restraint for many space projects. How can the agency assist with opening access to those organizations struggling to support this burden? So I'm going to direct this question to Stephen and ask as well, what's happening with the space activities after review? I've heard rumors that it's something's going to be happening this year, but as the chair of that review, what answers do you have for these questions? Thank you for the question. Firstly, on the question of insurance, well, insurance obviously plays a vital role in most space activities. But the requirement to have insurance or the necessity to have insurance obviously adds a cost in post. Insurance was an issue when we were conducting the review of the Space Activities Act, the feeling being that some of the financial requirements under that legislation were for the smaller space entrepreneurs and smaller startups that were emerging over recent years in Australia, were adding what they considered to be unreasonable cost in post on them and therefore made it very difficult. The space insurance market is not something that Megan or anyone will be able to control obviously and it's an open market and there have been many insurance companies that have started off with the space portfolio and that have closed it down because they've made incorrect assessments or whatever. But it's important that people understand that insurance will always play a part. The way the regulatory framework is set up will pass to a certain degree to determine to what extent it might be required. The second question about the review of the Space Activities Act, let me first correct you, I wasn't the chair of that review. I was asked by the government to assist them and I submitted my analysis report some time ago. The government's been looking at it and you would have seen in the minister's recent press release, at the same time she talked about Megan's appointment, she did make the point that it's anticipated that the Amending Act to the Space Activities Act will be coming out this year. So in the report that I put forward and then with subsequent government discussion, certainly there were a number of options that I put forward and others have put forward in terms of amending the legislation because the 1998 Space Activities Act was designed for particular reasons and the landscape has changed a lot in Australia, although the Act still works for those that utilise them for the larger players. But clearly the legislation that the framework should be amended should perhaps be more facilitating for the broad spectrum of actors now that want to utilise Australia for their activities in a much broader way. Hopefully that will come out soon. The government has put out some issues papers, they've had more consultation even after my report was submitted 18 months ago. So I'm with you Troy, I think it will happen soon. The government has indicated it will happen soon and I think they will take a very positive and pragmatic approach. They'll take on board the fact that the legislation is one cog in a broad range of cogs that Megan will have to deal with as she portrays and puts forward the way that the agency is going to encourage industry, but I think the government understands that. So it's a question of watch this space, I have no control over that obviously, but everybody has said that something will happen sooner rather than later. I don't know Megan, whether you're in a point where you can comment more on that, but hopefully we'll see something soon because even though the EIG work was going along and the legislative framework was another process, by and large they're interrelated and we've got to get it right at the same time and I think that's an important part of what the agency needs to see. Megan, I guess what might be too early to ask, but when it comes to looking I guess at the policy side again, one of the things that I was wondering when the Space Activities Act review was happening is what about the Defence Trade Controls Regulations, what about the Radio Communications Act and how do they interact with each other? It might be too early, but what do you proceed, are we going to have more reviews that are similar to Space Activities Act one or how are you thinking you might coordinate, I guess unraveling all of this? Yeah, no you have people like Stephen Freeland at your shoulder when you have to do that sort of unraveling and I think Stephen's sort of outlined at least what we know will happen in the next steps and this is a balance of how do you support industry through the licensing process, how do you make sure as we know if something goes wrong in Space Australia is responsible, if there's damage then people will come back to the nation so you have obligations and then we have as you outlined a whole series of obligations that we have signed up with our partners both in how we operate on the military side etc and so these absolutely need to be balanced and our obligations and responsibilities are very real at the same time we want to facilitate the operational space so we certainly will have some good people working in that area. So we've got a question here from Marty the Martian, so this is an interesting, I'm going to throw this to you Megan, Australia was invited to join the European Space Agency about 30 years ago, is the office still open and will we consider joining? Yeah well it's nice that we are connected to off the planet so it's great that that connection link is working so great to hear from you Marty. We will be be engaging with space agencies from several nations and the European Space Agency is all important particularly important because the European Space Agency has a ground station in Australia, in West Australia, in New Norcia and in our discussions with the European Space Agency a very important part of the Deep Space Communication Network just as Tim Binbiller is an important is one of the three Deep Space Communication Networks for NASA so too early to outline how that will go we need to engage and work through one of the possibilities and one of the options but it will be part of our discussions internationally. Do we do we think that I'll sort of let anybody jump on this one do we think that Australia might be able to be a leader when it comes to you know if we're going to become this international participant we've got a clean slate to start on and to unwind all of our policy that we've just been talking about. We've seen countries like Luxembourg and the United States really go I guess you know really ahead of the curve with new acts and changes to regulations around things like commercial space activities in space and space mining do we think that Australia will remain conservative or will we be a progressive leader when it comes to I guess jumping into this head first into this new global space industry. Jason I might ask you well look it's really up to us you know I mean I'm confused as to why Luxembourg did it but I think it's awesome that they did it right I mean and again these are the United States and Luxembourg it's like comparing apples and oranges right the US space agency with their goals totally totally different from Luxembourg and theirs I certainly couldn't speak to the regulatory framework like like Stephen can now all I can really say is I if if Australia wants to do something like that picking one specific aspect of a huge space problem and say go for that specifically then then then then we'll do it I think the decision to make Australia and the goal of building commercial industry building an industry that could handle our national needs I think we as a community if we want to do anything exotic like like mining on the moon and moon missions and asteroid missions we need to look at the business case and and make a case for that that has commercial legs and that is the kind of thing that I think the government will be supporting later that that's my opinion. If Troy if I could just add to that certainly what I've seen and I'm sure Megan and Jason couldn't can talk to this as well Australia is well regarded already in this whole international community notwithstanding that we haven't had an agency until now but but we are seen as a country that has taken the lead in a number of areas like the sustainability issues you know we were involved in working groups in the UN on that and and people do look at us and I think the establishment of the agency will make that an even greater greater regular regular thing so I think Australia has a really important role to play it does it already but I think it can play it in a greater way as a responsible nation that is at the forefront of coming up with solutions that really will work as this technology develops and that's part of the engagement that the agency and other people but particularly the agency will will look to because people do turn to Australia when you go to meetings in this forum I'm sure in others but if you go to meetings in space people do ask what the Australian view on certain things is and you know to a certain degree we haven't had strong views in the past on some issues we have on others but I think now that Megan's at the helm we will identify even more those areas where Australia can take a lead and and we are a highly respected country in this domain notwithstanding the fact that perhaps we're not a major space power as yet but people will look at this I like your choice of words as yet in there Megan do you have anything to add to that no I think that's Stephen sums it up very well great so I've got a question from Henry Sitt how will the agency procure the necessary capabilities telling resources to function properly so I think that's an interesting question on the back of the one about you know will we join the European Space Agency and I guess more broadly what will our international relationships look like as well as just the I guess the internal capability building yeah great question and in terms of where we're looking to get in the next 12 months we kick off in July and we will be looking to bring in the talent that we need at that early stage will be just just around 20 20 roles that we'll be looking at and that will be international and national seeking that that capability we also see that there's in a sustainable model for the agency moving forward it would be fantastic to be able to create an opportunity where we can have people moving through the agency in in some sort of mechanism you know internships etc so that we can we can assist and and be connected to many more careers as well and then I think highlighting of course where those roles will be as the industry is growing as we've got companies that are growing you know I was talking just a few weeks ago to to Woodside who had 40 people in their robotics lab where they were looking at sort of rivals and as I said working with NASA and they said they would they would quadruple that and that's you know that's that's a hundred you know that's going to be 160 people working in that area so so making sure that you know the agency isn't going to be able to you know hire everyone in the way that a big agency would but what it can do is point to where those growth areas are and I think if we do our job right there will be growth opportunities throughout the country fantastic all right well we've gone a little bit over time but I might might call it right there but thank you so much everybody for for joining this discussion and sharing your thoughts on this is there anything I mean you guys all put a lot of work in over the last year and I guess you know we'll continue to do so in your various domains is there any last things you would like to to shout out there to the public and communicate the yeah look from my end I would just want to thank all of the people that over many years have worked very hard for this and also all of the people that came out with a single spirit which was to assist us to provide the right advice to government and the unbelievable talent we had in the expert review group and at all of the meetings we had was overwhelming so just a big thank you to the nation for you know helping us get to this point any money Steven how about you oh look I can only echo I mean what Megan has said I mean the there are so many people who have an interest in space both in the industry and in now in the broader community and there's so much positive energy and so much expertise in our engineering in our science in our universities in our research in our regulatory areas you know I think it's an incredibly positive optimistic future for for Australia in this and what we need to do is get everybody to move forward in that in that way we need a lot of people to cooperate because in the end cooperating on some of the adventures is actually going you know two and two will equal five or six not they're two separate things and I think you know given the complexities that everybody has talked about with some of the activities and the possibilities for Australia you know the future is very positive but you can't be complacent because every country wants to do this you know the global space economy is growing at almost 10 a year and that's three times or four times what the global economy as a whole is growing and so everybody wants a piece of that pie but I think we have great opportunities and again with Megan's leadership in the and the way that the agency can if you like bring all of that expertise you know help to bring that expertise even more to the forefront I think it's a really positive future and I think we really have to get behind those sorts of efforts not everything will work out perfectly of course we all understand that but you know as Jason said this is a in a sense a startup phase but I think it's a startup phase that has a fantastic future so thank you again for allowing us to talk about sorry Jason do you have any process of elimination you saved that the guy with the face for radio to be the last one last last but not least you're the good father of the Australian new space community I'm not old enough to be a godfather yet you know I just you know look all right look I mean bottom line up front the expression that comes to mind is you may be whatever you resolve to be okay and I I'm very grateful for the chance to kind of I see this as community service it you know part of the year ERG was was a great experience but at the end of the day what I say to the community again is you could be whatever you resolve to be if you want to do rockets if you want to do satellites if you want to do downstream applications it's up to us to kind of continue the momentum we've had over the last two years continue to grow remember that that what we have right now is it's not the end it's not like okay this is a space agency this is in fact the beginning and that beginning is entirely up to us as a group as a community not just the government but us as the the people the stakeholders to to to work but the good news is is now there's there's the star that the seed of a of a framework that we could plug into that can and it has an interest a vested interest in protecting us and this is something we absolutely can do together and and that's what I want to see happen over the next few years great thank you very much everyone so before we do go I just like to give a special thanks to tomorrow for lending us this this amazing virtual room it's very spacious in here so thank you very much it's fantastic also thank you very much to to our partners at start mate for working with us and helping us run the very first space tech accelerator here in Australia so if this sounds interesting to you and you're a founder of an international space company you've got seven days to put in an application and we'd love to hear from you and have a chat about what this might mean to you and and if you are an international if you're an international person watching this at the moment or even within Australia and you're interested to build your own space startup you know you like Jason said can build your own space program for less than the cost of the small business now we will also be running our Gemini program across four continents later this year where we can help you get into the space industry so thank you very much to everyone who asks questions and to those that are watching and stay tuned we'll be back for a similar session in the future thank you very much and good night