 Hello and welcome to MIP TV and with me as always is Bob Cook from Manchester Institute for Psychotherapy who likes to review books, talk about the literature that he's read, he's read an awful lot and we're looking at a book now that's been really popular especially with students and it's called A Curious Calling. That's the kind of short and title of the book by Michael B. Sesman and I'm going to guess Bob because I've not read this but I'm going to guess. It kind of investigates the motivations of why people become counsellors and psychotherapists. That's right obviously it's our 82nd book, I thought I'd review a real corker. It's been around for some time and I've been I've been training psychotherapists since 1993 and every time you know the year comes around for the next intake and I start interviewing prospective people who want to be psychotherapists and more people ever now in 2019 I nearly always ask the question somewhere why do you want to do this job? Why do you want to sit beside or next to a person for one hour listening to their woes, dreds about life? So yes you are right this book is about the motivations, the unconscious motivations of why psychotherapists are doing to our profession and a lot of the books about research because they ask a lot of the same questions. A lot of the book is about motivations, unconscious motivations particularly and it's a really interesting question why would anybody on earth want to sit and listen to somebody usually reiterating their dreds, woes and anxieties about life. Why would you enter a profession like that? Well it's such an interesting question isn't it Bob and I wonder what kind of answers that your prospective students give you, what kind of responses do you get and is there any commonality in those? Well yes and there's one common answer which is very very very common. In fact I would say 80% of the people that's 8 out of 10 that I've probably interviewed will say will give this answer and actually in the book they spend a lot of time talking about this answer and the answer I think is at least 8 out of 10 what we're really saying they want to say I want to help people. Yes. Now that's a really interesting response not only is a common response because it tells us very little it is uniquely you know the gratification of each person is uniquely different yes so they might want to help people for their own guilt they might want to help people for redemption they might want to help people because they think there's lots of money in it they might want to help people to structure time they might want to help people to unconsciously enact their history I mean they might want to help people to get lots of strokes because they feel depressed and lonely themselves there's there's many different reasons consciously and unconsciously to that question there is and it's really interesting when I first started my counselling training our tutor asked us to be really honest why we wanted to become counsellors and it was interesting there was a whole lot of different responses in the room and she asked the question her words not mind Bob how many people here are Catholics no yes oh I see I see where she's coming from yes and and she she can she conflated if you like the idea that that maybe some people with very strong religious connections felt inherently guilty and therefore they needed to expunge their guilt ridden selves by helping others now that's talked about in this book actually not from the Catholic position but the sense of actually I forget they do talk about religion but they also talk about moral duty yes in the same vague you know same process and I think from the religious context as well that is a moral some people will come from a moral duty sense and often actually from the from the way she's talking they do talk about gilping you know often an unconscious motivating factor another big one they talk about is redemption yeah actually so I see where the Catholic becomes it's a good question it's a good it's a good statement yeah yeah yeah so what did you put you remember all those years ago why how you answered that one she said that yeah yes I did and I I I I'm going to tell you I wrote ego I wrote I wrote ego because I wanted to be better than I was I wanted to have some form of authority in the world that at that time I felt I didn't have and so I was really honest about it I think my motivations are different now 16 years on I'm a different person and you know and but yeah I was honest and and it was interesting a lot of the people in my group were aghast when I said that because yeah some people were aghast but you know kind of vocalized oh what a thing to say and I said well you asked me to give me an honest answer and you know I'm here to be honest and that's why um I'm not you know that develop really into an interesting psychology and also an interesting in helping people um yeah that's a very good answer and I remember oh god um what I said and I it's very similar to what a lot of these um well many responses but what these students answer or perspective students and I've been in therapy for about a year and a half and I was also on a counsellor course when I was asked that question actually you know why would I want to go into this curious profession and I said oh because I want to be like my therapist and help people oh yes now that's an interesting one if you think about it my early therapy is very very much the mother I never had yes so looking at all this and I'm looking didn't explore it that much I don't think we had the discussions you have what did I go into this profession to simply please them the desired mother I never had for example I can't I'm not I'm just reflecting on that now seven to four years later I would probably say yeah besides a million of other things I would probably say yes yeah yeah it's really interesting there's a lot but there's lots of people on motivations I had the I had the privilege of training lots of people in the recovery community who had you know difficulties with substance misuse of various sorts and they came to it as a as a redemptive position a giving back position I've I've got colleagues who'd lost children who'd had therapy and wanted to give back that way and I have I have met both well I've I met I'll leave it to that some people who I did wonder if they should have been therapists because their motivations didn't seem very clear and there was a lot of diffusion around it which made me wonder a did they not know or b did they know exactly why they wanted to become therapists and weren't really comfortable stating it either way I think I think there's some difficulty there you know say what you you know as John Schlean said you know the student of Rogers you know you know say what you know say what call it what it say what you do but call it what it is and I think that's always been my answer you know no you're right and I think it's very interesting as you've picked on Freud a second here in this book they talk a lot about Freud and Freud's early answering to that question interestingly enough is when he talks about relatingness in other words he one of his thoughts about unconscious motivation was that people often come into this profession because they have a deficit in relating to people yes and when you think of us now in 2019 with the huge emphasis on relationship being the cure people and if you put that in the context where I've just said that people's unconscious motivation might be to actually fulfill the deficit in relating to people it's an interesting thought process where we're going to it is what what someone else does a book tell us Bob what other gems may we find in this book regarding people yeah well it talks a lot about exploitation and in other words why ask the question why why am I writing this why what does it matter really what you know the answers come up to why we you know sit between sit next to a person or opposite a person for an hour and listen to who was and their answer or his answer anyway is that unless we reflect on our unconscious motivations we could be exploiting the very people who are vulnerable in other words you know if we don't examine our unconscious motivations we may act out in ways which are exploited exploited and harmful to the very people that come in the room yeah so yes it wasn't for this if it wasn't for the fact that she's going on youtube Bob I could share some really interesting kind of stories over a cup of tea about about some of the people I've met about their motivations and the fact that really they should have had a lot more therapy before they signed on to train and the book goes on to talk about the pivotal importance of therapy yes pivotal pivotal and they don't say well uh don't give a time how long a person should be in therapy but I bet you it's more than the BACP's recommended dosage which is nil yes yeah in other words unless you really reflect on your unconscious motivations while you're doing the job yeah you will probably enact out the deficits or the fragility of your own human nature at the cost of the vulnerable people who come to see you is there and mine by the way yes I I I think for me I think that everybody needs some form of a moral compass now for some people that's a faith position a spiritual position can be an intellectual position I have to say that's where I come from Bob I tend to have a very strong intellectual moral compass anybody who knows me well will say that I spend my time quoting philosophers theorists chapter and verse as a way of kind of navigating my way through life and I find that extremely useful because that's the kind of person I am but you are right you need some form of you need some form of compass to you know to to find your way through and not statement to the difficult waters I'm wondering did did this book mention Kearon or Sharon the wounded healer by any chance and the archetypes you add this to you add this to the book God tell me tell me what you're alluding to well I'm alluding I'm alluding to the the many wonderful characters in Greek mythology and one of them of course was Sharon spelt strangely enough with a K I think and he was he was a he was a a minotaur I think half horse half human and he yeah he went doing a lot of hunting the the Greek gods did a lot of hunting with bows and arrows and stuff and he was wounded by an arrow dipped in the blood of the hydra I think which is a snake I think I'm right and because it because the he couldn't cure himself he mortally sold he was in immortal pain and he spends his time trying to find a cure and as such he he spent his time curing others as a way of curing himself and that's where the term the wounded healer comes from well I didn't know that but the book spends at least three chapters at the end from their position is the people I say there's an answer to this question but what do they do say most categorically is what you've just said very eloquently in their position they think a huge huge majority of people unconscious come into therapy to heal themselves yeah yeah really their position they get to yeah yeah and they go on to back it up with a search yeah and I I would agree with that if someone who's taught for a lot of years and they've been a therapist myself and met a lot of therapists I think that a lot of therapists not all but a lot would say that that in the search of exercising their own demons it's helpful to work with other people and I think that's fine as long as they know what their own demons are that's absolutely that's a wonderful that's what they say in this book in many roundabout ways is that you need in depth what you put more confidence therapy to reflect and to really have some understanding of those flaws those human vulnerabilities those deficits the enacts that you might be carrying in the relationship with your clients because if you haven't had the therapy you could and what I think they're too that you could unconsciously exploit the very people who come to you for help yes and I think it's really interesting if you if you look at the name and shame section in the BACP magazine and they they which I I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of state my position and I think it's slightly unfair but they they they they name in they they would say that it's sanctions that's that would be the BACP's positions and they they some of some of the background to where complaints been upheld can't is quite interesting and you could you could actually you could actually see in some cases where maybe somebody would need to have a bit more work on themselves oh definitely because because there's a deficit and there's projection projective identification or transference yeah very much yeah yeah very very much so I think it's a wonderful book for seasoned professionals like us to reflect on and I think an essential read for people who are of course entering the professions to hopefully stir them to reflect on how come they've been coming to this curious profession and it's a good read it is and you know it's called the book's called a curious calling that's a short headline for it might'll be sussman we'll put a link down below so people can inspect the book and you know a bit of a plea really I think for Bo and myself is if you are thinking of training as a therapist be honest about your motivations because the thing you need therapy there is no escape from yourself it will come out eventually yeah you couldn't said that's a wonderful way to end this review yeah yeah yeah who you are will will materialize at some point you cannot hide from yourself and and you know your own personal therapy is a way of meeting yourself and understanding who you are in the world which is why you know we we ask people to do their own personal therapy yeah and you may and just one other thing on this and of course as you start to do your own therapy you might leave the job yes oh yes I've had a few people do that yeah because actually you realize you've come in for reasons which means that you're enacting your own history and carrying on your own script and there we are so people leave and thank god they do by the way yeah yeah and those and those people are brave enough to make that decision and I've had students have done that you know hats off to them because they're going in a different direction and that part of that may be to heal themselves to get a better handle on who they are so as always bob cook thank you very much so those of you watching out there in youtube land downstairs for the links to the book and as usual bob doesn't get paid for book reviews it's not a it's not a sponsored segment bob does it for the love of literature and we'll see you in the next book review so thank you very much thank you