 Live from Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, friend of theCUBE, James Waters, SVP, a product at Pivotal. James, great to see you, and thanks for helping to get theCUBE to Cloud Foundry Summit. Yeah, I was just saying, this is the first time theCUBE is at CF Summit, so we're official now, we're all grown up, we're out in the daylight, and you know you made it when theCUBE shows up, so excited to have you here. Absolutely, so a lot of things going on, we had Chip on talking about some of the big announcements, from Pivotal's standpoint, what's some of the important milestones and releases happening? Yeah, I think in the simplest terms, the big new thing is came out of our collaboration with Google, it's called Kubo, which is Kubernetes on Bosch, and I think that was a big move, got a lot of applause in the keynote when it was announced yesterday, and I think it shows two things, one is that Cloud Foundry really is going to embrace multiple ways of deploying artifacts and managing things, and it were really the cloud-native platform and willing to embrace container abstractions, app abstractions, data abstractions. Pretty uniquely, which is there hasn't been another platform out there that embraces those with specialized ways of doing them, and I'm really excited about the customer response to that approach. Jim, help us unpack that a little bit, so we look at, the term seems this year, everybody, it's multi-cloud, we're all talking back. I think back to the days when we talked about platform as a service, one of the pieces was, oh well, I should be able to have my application and move lots of places, that's what I heard when I talked about Cloud Foundry. When Docker came out, everybody's like, oh well, Paz is dead, Docker's going to do this. When Kubernetes came out, oh wait, this takes the core value of what platform as a service done, and today you're saying, Kubo, Cloud Foundry, and Kubernetes with some Bosch, pulling it all together, walk us through, because it's nuanced, and there's pieces of that, so I hope you'll understand. I like to say that even though sometimes you have open-source communities have their own sense of identity, there's really not a God abstraction in cloud programming. There's not one abstraction that does it all, and the simplest way you can see that is that people are interested in function as a service today, they're also interested in containers as a service. Well, those two are not compatible, right? Like, you don't deploy your whole Docker image to Amazon Lambda, but people are interested in both of those, and then at the same time, there's this hypergrowth of Spring Boot, which is I think the most efficient way of doing Java programming in the cloud, which is really at the core of our app abstraction. And so we see people, there's hypergrowth in function as a service, app as a service, especially with Spring Boot, and then also container. And I think the approach that we've had is because there's not one God abstraction, that our platform needs to embrace all of those, and that actually it's pretty intuitive once you start really using them, and you get beyond the slides and the buzzwords, when to use one versus the other. And I think that's what users have been really excited about is that Pivotal and Cloud Foundry community has embraced kind of that breadth in terms of different approaches to cloud native. Yeah, a lot of- Seven cents to you, John? Yeah, it's starting to, right? A lot of people like to do all or nothing about everything, right? It's all going to be, we're going to be serverless by next year, which doesn't make any sense at all. That's right. And so, yeah, you have multiple programming models, like you said, multiple different kinds of abstractions. So when would somebody want to use containers as a service or container orchestration versus some of the other application models? Yeah, it's a really, really great question. And I just had a really productive customer meeting this morning where we went through that. They had some Node.js developers that they said, look, these developers just want to get their code to production. They don't want to think about systems. They don't want to think about operating systems. They don't want to think about clusters. They're just like, here's my app, run it for me. And that's the core trick that Cloud Foundry's done the best of any platform in the world, which is CF push. And so for a Node.js developer, here's my app, run it for me, load balance it, health management, log aggregate it, give me quotas on my memory usage, everything. That's a good example of that. Then they also had a team that was deploying a kind of elastic search and some packaged applications. And they needed the level of control that Kubernetes provides in terms of pods, co-location, full control of a system image, the ability to do networking in a certain way as an ability to control storage. And you don't just take Elastic Search and say, here's my Elastic Search tarball, run it for me. You actually start to set up a system. And that's where Kubernetes Containers of Service is perfect. Then the other question is like, how do you stitch those together? And you've seen the Kubernetes community adopt the service broker API, the open service broker API to Cloud Foundry as a common way of saying, oh, I have an Elastic Search over here, but I want to bind it to an application. Well, they use the CF Services API. So I think it's early days, but there's actually a coherent fabric forming across these different approaches. And it's also immediately intuitive. Like we didn't know, when we first conceived of adding Kubo to the mix, we didn't know what the educational level of education we have to provide, but it's been intuitive. Every client I've talked to so far. So that's fun for me to watch you say a few words. I'm like, oh, we get it. Yeah, we've used that for this and this for this. All right, James, I have to up level it a little bit there. So, you travel way more than I do. We kind of watch on social media. Prove me wrong, but I can't imagine when you're talking to the C-suite of a Fortune 100, pick your financial or insurance company that they're immersed in the languages and platform discussion that the hoodie crowd is. So, where are you having those discussions? One of the things I come into the show and say Pivotal and Cloud Founder are helping customers with that whole digital transformation and making that reality. So, help us with that disconnect of down in the weeds trying to build this very complex stack and the C-suite says I want to be faster. I'll tell you what the C-suite has to solve. They've got to solve two things. One is they've got to deliver faster and more efficiently than ever before. That's their language and our core app abstraction has been killer for digital transformation. Deliver apps faster, find your value line and approach problems that way. They get that, that's why we've been succeeding economically. That's been a big hit. But they also have another problem is they want to retain talent and when they're trying to retain talent, some of those times those folks are saying, well, we want a little bit more control. We want to be able to use a container free one or think about something like Spring Cloud Dataflow to do high-end data pipelines. And so they do care about having a partner in Pivotal and in Cloud Foundry that can embrace those new trends. Because they've got to be able to not be completely top down in how they're enabling their organizations while also encouraging efficiency. And so that's where this message of multiple abstractions really hits home for them because they don't always want to referee some of the emerging trends in tech and telling their team what they have to use. So by providing function app container and data service, we can be the one partner that doesn't force that a priori in the discussion. Is there any friction ever when saying, okay, here we've got this platform that actually is rather opinionated versus, hey, go choose everything open source and do whatever you want? You know, I think that there's political boundaries between different parts of organizations. So a lot of what DevOps, I think as a movement has been so important, which is saying, actually you need to blur the political boundaries in your organization to get to faster end-to-end throughput and collaboration. So I think that's definitely a reality that at the same time, the ability that we've had to embrace these different approaches allows the level of empowerment that I think is appropriate. Like I think what we've been trying to do is not necessarily cater to a free-for-all. We've been saying, what are the right tools and a tool chest that people need to get their job done? So I think that's been very warmly received. So I guess I'd say that hasn't been a big problem for us. When I ask you about the ecosystem, I think back when the ecosystem started, IBM, HPE, Cisco were big players. I come in this week and it's Google Cloud, Microsoft Cloud, and Pivotal still is, I mean last time I checked it was what, 70% of the code base created by Pivotal. So what's 60 or 55 now? Change in the ecosystem, what that means and what that means to kind of open source, open core. Yeah, so I think in addition to the Kubo work that we've done, the other big news this week is that Microsoft joined the Cloud Foundry Foundation. So essentially the largest software company in the world. Wait, wait, and Microsoft loves open source right here. Did you hear that one? They do. I know. It's still shocking for a lot of us that have known Microsoft for a long time. Don't you think? I mean, and I'm not trying to be facetious. They totally are involved. I've talked to lots of Microsoft people. They're doing kudos to them. They're doing a really good job. Even if I look at the big cloud guys and throw in VMware in there, Microsoft's one of the leaders in participating and embracing open source. They are, and I think Corey Sanders who got on stage announced this. He leads the Azure Virtual Machine Service and a lot of the other Azure services for them. I think that their strategy is they want to run every workload. Like if you talk to Corey about it, he's like, you got workload? We want to be your partner. And I think that's been the change at Microsoft is once you go into cloud, it's sort of like pivotal embracing multiple programming abstractions, right? Like once you have a platform, you want as much critical mass on it as you can. And I think that's really helped Microsoft embrace the open source community in a very pragmatic way. Because they are a business centric company, right? And I think open source is required to do business and software these days, right? Like in a way that it wasn't 10 years ago. As you look at your customer set and multi-cloud, right? From the very beginning, multi-cloud was baked into the concept of cloud foundry. You know, like you said, just push, right? Yeah. So what do you see as common patterns? We've talked to folks already who, you know, on-prem. Yeah. Obviously you all are running your CF service in partnership with your main one in partnership with Google. You work with Amazon. Yeah. What do you see as a customer base, right? Yeah, so let me just share a little bit from a good customer. This is a prospect conversation with somebody who's starting the journey. You know, they were currently running on-prem on an open-stack environment which had some cost of maintenance for them. They were considering also using their vSphere environment to maybe not have to do as much customization of open-stack. But there were certain geographies that they wanted to get into. They didn't want to build data centers. And what they were confronting was they'd have to go learn networking and app management on a couple of different clouds they wanted to use. And what they liked about our CF fabric, you know, across that was that they said, oh, this is one operating model for any of those clouds. And that's the pattern that we see, is that companies want to have one cloud operating model while there's five major cloud players today. So like how do those two forces in the market combine? And I think that's where multicloud becomes powerful. It's not necessarily multicloud for its own sake, but it is the idea that you can engage and use the multiple resources from these different data center providers without having to completely change your whole organization around it. Because taking on, you know, how you run vService open-stack is different as you know, right? Right, right. Well, and talking about change, right? You and I were together at VMware when you launched this thing. And you know, there was a profound kind of conceptual chasm to leap for the VMware operators to figure out what was going on here. So in this new world of, you know, services operation in multicloud, how are you seeing people, you know, how's the adoption going? You know, you just launched new, or the foundations launched into new certification stuff. You know, can you talk a little bit about the new skill set needed or how you're seeing people, the old, the people who used, the people formerly known as sysadmins are now actually doing cloud operations. Well, you know, I'm not sure if you saw Pat Gelsinger's announcement at Dell, Dell World, Dell EMC World about developer-ready infrastructure. And I think this is a critical evolution that our partnership with VMware is more important than ever, which is they're now saying, you know, all these people that have been doing traditional system administration, you need to now offer developer-ready infrastructure. And this is an infrastructure that all the networking and network micro-segmentation rules need to be there, all of the great things that, you know, the VMware, you know, admins have provided before it needs to be there, but it needs to be turnkey for a developer. I.e. that developer shouldn't just get what, you know, we had in 2009, when you and I were working there together, which is like, you know, here's a virtual machine, go build the rest of the environment. It should look more like, here's my application, run it for me, here's my container, run it for me. And so what we're seeing is a lot of people upping their game now to say, oh, the new thing is providing these services for developers, because that ties into digital transformation, ties into what the business is doing, ties into productivity. So I'm seeing a renaissance of CISA admins having a whole new set of tools. So that makes me excited. And one of the cool things we see, I'd love to get your opinion on this, is this cool operating ratio of, we've had our clients present, their administers of Cloud Foundry instances are able to run tens of thousands of apps and containers with, you know, two to four to five people. And so now they've got this superpower, which is like, hey, bring as many of the applications as the business needs to me. I can go run 10,000 app containers with a small team of people with a good lifestyle. To me, that's actually kind of incredible to see that leverage. Yeah, I think it's a huge shift, right? Because you aren't setting up the VLANs and the micro segmentation and the rest of the stuff. It's not all by hand. And so now the idea with our NSX partnership, I'm really excited about, fun to talk to you about it. We used to work in building E and have lunch out there. Is that when you provision, you know, a CF app, we're working with the NSX team that all the segmentation will align with the app permissions. And this is a big deal because it used to be that the network team and the app team didn't really have a good conduit of communication. So now it's like, okay, I'm going to bind my app to this data service. I want NSX to make sure that permission is followed. And to me, that's going to be a revolution of getting the app and the DevOps teams and the networking teams to work together clearly. Wow, so I'm pumped about that. Running low on time, a couple of quick questions about Pivotal. Number one is, now that you're doing Kubo, should we expect to see Pivotal join the CNCF? So EMC has joined the CNCF. We have friendly relations with the CNCF. I don't think that's at all out of the cards. There's no current, I don't have any news on that today. But we've been very friendly with them. And, you know, we started working with Google on that. So no immediate plans there, but we'd be open to that, I believe. Okay, secondly, my understanding the last announcement on revenue, you know, you can't speak to the IPO or anything, James, above your pay grade, but $275 million in billing on PCF, did I get that right? And what do you see as kind of the mix of, you know, how your revenue, you know, are you a software company, a services company, you know, the big data versus the cloud piece? How do we look at Pivotal? You know, I want to say I primarily oversee the Cloud Foundry portion of what we do. And services are an incredibly important part of our mix, Pivotal Labs. You know, when you think about this developer-ready infrastructure tend, like a lot of the way you organize your developers can change too. So we talked about how the system in jobs change, they get this platform scale. Well, the developer's jobs change now too. They have to learn how to do CICD, they've got to learn how to potentially turn around agile requirements from the business on a weekly basis versus every six months. So Pivotal Labs has certainly been critical to that mix for us, but PCF in and of itself has been a very successful software business. And I think, I believe, you know, can grow into the billions of dollars a year in software. And that's what kind of keeps me excited about it every day. All right, James, I want to give you the final word. Yeah. You speak to so many customers. A few. The whole digital transformation thing, what are you seeing? How do we, you know, help customers along that, you know, moving faster? That's a, it's a big topic. And the thing that's really interesting about what PCF does is it helps people change their organizations, not just their technology. And this certainly happened in the vSphere environment, right? Like, you know, it would change your organization. But, you know, we're even going higher, which is like how your developers organize, how operating teams organize, how you think about security, how do I think about patching? Like the reason why I agree that it's transformative is that it's not just a change of technology, it's these new technologies allow you to rebuild your organization end to end of how it delivers business results. And that makes it both a humbling and an exciting time to be in the industry, because I personally don't have all of the answers every time people ask about organizations and what to do there, those are complex issues. But I think we've tried to partner with them to go on that journey together. So. Unfortunately, James, we're going to have to leave it there. We will definitely catch up with you at many more events later this year. And we'll be back with more coverage here from the Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. You're watching theCUBE.